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Old 03-26-2018, 10:46 AM   #3001
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I thump the Bible too.
I thump every day. But I don't like Trumping.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:50 AM   #3002
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Apparently better than you. They try to smear Christians by saying they support Trump. But the reality is it is primarily rural whites, poor whites, and unemployed whites. Christianity has little to no basis. If you filter out those who are voting for him for ethnic reasons and economic reasons, then religion doesn't play a role.

Obviously since the majority of hispanics are catholic you would not get a high % of Catholics supporting him. Also, the vast majority of minorities that are not Catholic would be considered evangelical, muslim, or Jews. So they don't talk about Brown or Black evangelicals, only White.

Don't blame Christians for Trump.
Are you among those who believe that the USA is a Christian nation?
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:20 AM   #3003
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I knew a brother who would write in "Native American" since he was a native American.
I've done that too.

"I am native American, I was born here."
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:29 PM   #3004
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Are you among those who believe that the USA is a Christian nation?
Depends on your definition.

Nominally yes.

In comparison to decidedly non Christian countries like Saudi Arabia and India, yes.

But based on some kind of NT definition, no.
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:02 PM   #3005
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I've done that too.

"I am native American, I was born here."
Yeah. Plus you have white privilege. The Native American Indians didn't get citizenship until 1924.

America was founded by white people. Trump wants to keep it that way. That's what he means by Make America Great Again. When asked what he meant by "again," he said 1950. That was before the civil rights movement, and during the Jim Crow days ; when there were whites only bathrooms and drinking fountains. That's what he means by great again. And prolly why you voted for him.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:21 PM   #3006
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Yeah. Plus you have white privilege. The Native American Indians didn't get citizenship until 1924.

America was founded by white people. Trump wants to keep it that way. That's what he means by Make America Great Again. When asked what he meant by "again," he said 1950. That was before the civil rights movement, and during the Jim Crow days ; when there were whites only bathrooms and drinking fountains. That's what he means by great again. And prolly why you voted for him.
Didn't you ever study history? It was the Democrats that deceived the Indians (think Andrew Jackson), kept the slaves (Democrats in the North and the South), and resisted civil rights.

It was the Republicans that fought for their freedoms. Ever hear of Abraham Lincoln?

Try not to get your history from mainstream media. Let me recommend a good encyclopedia.
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Old 03-26-2018, 08:47 PM   #3007
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Didn't you ever study history? It was the Democrats that deceived the Indians (think Andrew Jackson), kept the slaves (Democrats in the North and the South), and resisted civil rights.

It was the Republicans that fought for their freedoms. Ever hear of Abraham Lincoln?

Try not to get your history from mainstream media. Let me recommend a good encyclopedia.
I know the history. So when did the parties flip? LBJ? Nixon? The southern states are now predominately republican.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:39 AM   #3008
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I know the history.
That's doubtful.

If you knew the history of the liberal progressive movement in the US, and it's key players, you would have no part of it.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:54 AM   #3009
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Trump's approval went up? Whassup with that?

The Media has been predicting the end of the world for more than a year!

They have become the outreach arm of the worst fundamental religious fanatics -- the evil cult of progressivism -- with their High Priest Obama, who wants to clone himself with millions more, and their High Priestess Crooked Hilary herself.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:31 AM   #3010
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Yeah. Plus you have white privilege. The Native American Indians didn't get citizenship until 1924.

America was founded by white people. Trump wants to keep it that way. That's what he means by Make America Great Again. When asked what he meant by "again," he said 1950. That was before the civil rights movement, and during the Jim Crow days ; when there were whites only bathrooms and drinking fountains. That's what he means by great again. And prolly why you voted for him.
Seriously? If you are going to make "white privilege" a political issue, that is the most racist policy imaginable. You want to make it the law of the land to intentionally discriminate against people based on their skin tone and then condemn those being discriminated against because they vote against this? Sounds idiotic.

1950 was immediately after WWII, we were the dominant power in Europe and Asia. China was nothing but a rural, poverty stricken nation being ruled by an idiot. Russia had been decimated by the war. Our standing on the world stage and our dollar were never more influential.

1950 was also when the US car manufacturers were the envy of the world. The US was dominant in science and engineering, thanks very much to the Jewish exodus from Germany and Europe.

1950 was before OPEC had power or influence. Before oil embargoes.

Pollution of land and water were not yet a major concern as the pesticide companies were just beginning to peddle poison.

But instead of stating the obvious you point out that this was when we still had "white's only water fountains" in a few southern states. How can anyone take you seriously?
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:34 AM   #3011
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I know the history. So when did the parties flip? LBJ? Nixon? The southern states are now predominately republican.
Since when did the "Southern States" epitomize something negative? My mother's family are all from Jackson, Ms. My uncle had his house blown up by the KKK because he was standing against racism. The KKK is a small minority of bigots left over from the Civil War. You don't get rid of bigots by being a bigot. The best way to deal with them is with modern forensic tools and the FBI. Once they could no longer hide under sheets they were exposed as the cowards they are.

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/cl...&pid=179944171
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:35 AM   #3012
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Trump's approval went up? Whassup with that?

The Media has been predicting the end of the world for more than a year!

They have become the outreach arm of the worst fundamental religious fanatics -- the evil cult of progressivism -- with their High Priest Obama, who wants to clone himself with millions more, and their High Priestess Crooked Hilary herself.
Both you and Awareness need to realize that demonizing your opponent is not a way to reconcile the country.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:55 AM   #3013
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Both you and Awareness need to realize that demonizing your opponent is not a way to reconcile the country.
Wait a minute.

Several of you have been piling on me for years. Now you decide to step back and reprimand two of us for what you do too?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:50 AM   #3014
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Apparently better than you. They try to smear Christians by saying they support Trump. But the reality is it is primarily rural whites, poor whites, and unemployed whites. Christianity has little to no basis. If you filter out those who are voting for him for ethnic reasons and economic reasons, then religion doesn't play a role.

Obviously since the majority of hispanics are catholic you would not get a high % of Catholics supporting him. Also, the vast majority of minorities that are not Catholic would be considered evangelical, muslim, or Jews. So they don't talk about Brown or Black evangelicals, only White.

Don't blame Christians for Trump.
Did you even read the article? The sociologists found "that Americans’ religious beliefs, behaviors and affiliation did not directly influence voting for Trump. In fact, once Christian nationalism was taken into account, other religious measures had no direct effect on how likely someone was to vote for Trump. These measures of religion mattered only if they made someone more likely to see the United States as a Christian nation." Your allegation of "blame" appears unfounded.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:06 AM   #3015
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Wait a minute.

Several of you have been piling on me for years. Now you decide to step back and reprimand two of us for what you do too?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Is this a step up for me? I'm usually grouped with zeek. But why would ZNP put you down like that? You, who won't bow to your high priest Obama. But who kisses the ring of pontif Trump

Thanks for the laughs bro Ohio. And you too ZNP.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:22 AM   #3016
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Did you even read the article? The sociologists found "that Americans’ religious beliefs, behaviors and affiliation did not directly influence voting for Trump. In fact, once Christian nationalism was taken into account, other religious measures had no direct effect on how likely someone was to vote for Trump. These measures of religion mattered only if they made someone more likely to see the United States as a Christian nation." Your allegation of "blame" appears unfounded.
So now you and ZNP need to realize that demonizing your opponent is not a way to reconcile the country.

But I do think ZNP has made some needed points. The country is extremely polarized. (The real Russian collusion is intended to fan these flames.) By posting and siding with media articles, the conflicts just spread further.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:23 AM   #3017
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Wait a minute.

Several of you have been piling on me for years. Now you decide to step back and reprimand two of us for what you do too?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Who have I demonized?
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:27 AM   #3018
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Did you even read the article? The sociologists found "that Americans’ religious beliefs, behaviors and affiliation did not directly influence voting for Trump. In fact, once Christian nationalism was taken into account, other religious measures had no direct effect on how likely someone was to vote for Trump. These measures of religion mattered only if they made someone more likely to see the United States as a Christian nation." Your allegation of "blame" appears unfounded.
You said "Despite porn stars and Playboy models, white evangelicals aren’t rejecting Trump. Why? Christian nationalism".

You did not qualify "white evangelicals" as specific to those for whom "Christian nationalism" was taken into account. That sounds like a very small sliver of evangelicals. You smeared "white evangelicals". That is what I was taking issue with.

White evangelicals who have "Christian nationalism" as a core value is just a very long way of describing nazis or brown shirts or white supremacists. To equate evangelicals with that fringe group is slander.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:28 AM   #3019
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Is this a step up for me? I'm usually grouped with zeek. But why would ZNP put you down like that? You, who won't bow to your high priest Obama. But who kisses the ring of pontif Trump

Thanks for the laughs bro Ohio. And you too ZNP.
It's not me who obsesses over Trump, but you.

It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome.

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Old 03-27-2018, 07:30 AM   #3020
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So now you and ZNP need to realize that demonizing your opponent is not a way to reconcile the country.

But I do think ZNP has made some needed points. The country is extremely polarized. (The real Russian collusion is intended to fan these flames.) By posting and siding with media articles, the conflicts just spread further.
I have supported an investigation, that is not the same as siding with media articles and fanning flames of conspiracy nuts.

I don't believe in rushing investigations on one hand and on the other feel that after a reasonable amount of time (a year is certainly a reasonable amount of time) you need to have demonstrated a valid reason to continue. I think Mueller has certainly demonstrated a valid reason to continue. I think he has also justified his intention to question the president.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:31 AM   #3021
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Who have I demonized?
I said reprimand.

Piling on me for deciding not to hate Trump like the rest of the folks here.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:47 AM   #3022
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I have supported an investigation, that is not the same as siding with media articles and fanning flames of conspiracy nuts.

I don't believe in rushing investigations on one hand and on the other feel that after a reasonable amount of time (a year is certainly a reasonable amount of time) you need to have demonstrated a valid reason to continue. I think Mueller has certainly demonstrated a valid reason to continue. I think he has also justified his intention to question the president.
I have posted numerous articles that debunk the notion that the Mueller investigation is at all fair. Nothing about the investigation is right, honorable, or above the table. Sure the Russians are bad actors, but the overwhelming evidence of collusion for the last decade points to Hilary, Obama, and certain bad actors our intelligence community. Uranium One sellout is exhibit number one.

Quick example of media bias. Why no sympathy for Flynn, a career civil servant, who was illegally unmasked, deceptively interviewed by Strzok, illegally wiretapped by the FBI, bankrupted by Muller's team of crooked investigators like Weissmann, convicted of a "process" crime which will be overturned here shortly.

Compare this to the outpouring of sympathy for crooked McCabe, whose investigator Strzok interviewed Hilary without oath, who exonerated her even before interviewing her, who lied to Congress, who deceived the FISA court, who hatched the "insurance plan" to take down a sitting president. His "lack of candor" is FBI-speak for lack of honesty or integrity.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:43 AM   #3023
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You said "Despite porn stars and Playboy models, white evangelicals aren’t rejecting Trump. Why? Christian nationalism".

You did not qualify "white evangelicals" as specific to those for whom "Christian nationalism" was taken into account. That sounds like a very small sliver of evangelicals. You smeared "white evangelicals". That is what I was taking issue with.

White evangelicals who have "Christian nationalism" as a core value is just a very long way of describing nazis or brown shirts or white supremacists. To equate evangelicals with that fringe group is slander.
I didn't say no white evangelicals are rejecting Trump and I linked the article so any interested party could see that among religious groups, white evangelical Protestants continue to be solidly supportive of the president’s job performance: 78% approve today, while just 18% disapprove. Your accusation of slander is unfounded.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:35 AM   #3024
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I didn't say no white evangelicals are rejecting Trump and I linked the article so any interested party could see that among religious groups, white evangelical Protestants continue to be solidly supportive of the president’s job performance: 78% approve today, while just 18% disapprove. Your accusation of slander is unfounded.
the article says "78% approve of Job performance", you said despite porn stars and playboy models, evangelicals approve. Regardless of whether or not those accusations are 100% true, they are not "job performance". If the question was "lifestyle" or "sexual behavior" then that would be relevant.

Your statement took the response to one question and applied it to a very different one. I completely disapprove of the allegations of Trump's behavior with porn stars and playboy models. However, if I answered a survey about his job performance as president I would not put my disapproval of his personal behavior prior to being president as being relevant.

Accusation of slander is well founded.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:37 AM   #3025
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I said reprimand.

Piling on me for deciding not to hate Trump like the rest of the folks here.
I don't have any issue with you "not hating Trump".
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:41 AM   #3026
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I have posted numerous articles that debunk the notion that the Mueller investigation is at all fair. Nothing about the investigation is right, honorable, or above the table. Sure the Russians are bad actors, but the overwhelming evidence of collusion for the last decade points to Hilary, Obama, and certain bad actors our intelligence community. Uranium One sellout is exhibit number one.

Quick example of media bias. Why no sympathy for Flynn, a career civil servant, who was illegally unmasked, deceptively interviewed by Strzok, illegally wiretapped by the FBI, bankrupted by Muller's team of crooked investigators like Weissmann, convicted of a "process" crime which will be overturned here shortly.

Compare this to the outpouring of sympathy for crooked McCabe, whose investigator Strzok interviewed Hilary without oath, who exonerated her even before interviewing her, who lied to Congress, who deceived the FISA court, who hatched the "insurance plan" to take down a sitting president. His "lack of candor" is FBI-speak for lack of honesty or integrity.
I have not shown any bias towards Flynn. I have only stated the facts which may or may not indicate a hidden agenda and bias.

I have also stated repeatedly that I am all for investigating any and all corruption. But Al Capone claiming the trial is unfair because Dillinger killed more people is an apples and oranges argument.

The sympathy for McCabe has nothing to do with him being fired. I don't know the details of that and they have not yet been released to the public. So your claim to be in possession of all the facts is not true. What I do know is the investigation was rushed so that he could be fired 2 days before being able to retire with his benefits. This was done at the behest of the President who tweeted about this months before any legitimate investigation could have been performed.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:18 PM   #3027
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the article says "78% approve of Job performance", you said despite porn stars and playboy models, evangelicals approve. Regardless of whether or not those accusations are 100% true, they are not "job performance". If the question was "lifestyle" or "sexual behavior" then that would be relevant.

Your statement took the response to one question and applied it to a very different one. I completely disapprove of the allegations of Trump's behavior with porn stars and playboy models. However, if I answered a survey about his job performance as president I would not put my disapproval of his personal behavior prior to being president as being relevant.

Accusation of slander is well founded.
You seem to be taking the article personally when it isn't saying anything about you. It's a statistical finding. Just read the article and you'll see. They found that the more someone believed the United States is a Christian nation, the more likely they were to vote for Trump. "Americans who agreed with the various measures of Christian nationalism were much more likely to vote for Trump, even after controlling for other influences, such as political ideology, political party and other cultural factors proposed as possible explanations."
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Old 03-27-2018, 01:17 PM   #3028
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I have not shown any bias towards Flynn. I have only stated the facts which may or may not indicate a hidden agenda and bias.

The sympathy for McCabe has nothing to do with him being fired. I don't know the details of that and they have not yet been released to the public. So your claim to be in possession of all the facts is not true. What I do know is the investigation was rushed so that he could be fired 2 days before being able to retire with his benefits. This was done at the behest of the President who tweeted about this months before any legitimate investigation could have been performed.
Several serious errors in your post here --
Little of which you have stated are actual facts
McCabe's firing was labeled an assault on the FBI
I never claimed to possess all the facts
The investigation into McCabe was never rushed
His firing had nothing to do with Trump's behests
The investigation into McCabe's actions was begun long before Trumped screamed foul
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:09 PM   #3029
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It's not me who obsesses over Trump, but you.

It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome.

TDS ... you're a hoot Ohio. What about ODS?
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:10 PM   #3030
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That's doubtful.

If you knew the history of the liberal progressive movement in the US, and it's key players, you would have no part of it.
I don't. Remember? I'm a mugwump.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:30 PM   #3031
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Several serious errors in your post here --
Little of which you have stated are actual facts
McCabe's firing was labeled an assault on the FBI
I never claimed to possess all the facts
The investigation into McCabe was never rushed
His firing had nothing to do with Trump's behests
The investigation into McCabe's actions was begun long before Trumped screamed foul
Labeled an assault by who?

If you don't have all the facts then how do you claim that McCabe is "crooked". Until we see all the facts we merely have the allegations which McCabe has yet had a chance to refute.

Trump tweeted months before McCabe was fired about firing him prior to his reaching the date at which he could retire with full benefits. You can interpret it any way you wish, but given the facts it is quite reasonable for Sessions to interpret it that firing McCabe when he did would please Trump which was confirmed by Tweets from Trump after he was fired.

How long do these investigations generally take? Was McCabe given adequate time to respond and refute? That is my basis for saying it was rushed.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:26 PM   #3032
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Labeled an assault by who?
Liberal media. Didn't you watch the news.

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If you don't have all the facts then how do you claim that McCabe is "crooked". Until we see all the facts we merely have the allegations which McCabe has yet had a chance to refute.
I don't have all the facts, but there are sufficient facts to know McCabe is crooked.

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Trump tweeted months before McCabe was fired about firing him prior to his reaching the date at which he could retire with full benefits. You can interpret it any way you wish, but given the facts it is quite reasonable for Sessions to interpret it that firing McCabe when he did would please Trump which was confirmed by Tweets from Trump after he was fired.
Sure Trump hates McCabe, but he was dismissed by Wray immediately after seeing the House Intelligence report. The Senate also is investigating. McCabe was fired based on the FBI OPR and the DOJ IG investigations. They had nothing to do with Trump. Sessions is his own man. He may have been appointed by Trump, but "Mr. Magoo" is not his "boy." Trump's Tweeter only hurts himself when he goes after others.

Let me repeat. McCabe was in effect fired by his own people because he no longer had Comey or Lynch to protect him. McCabe has said that if he goes down, he will take others with him, and that is why Muller must continue. His own freedom depends on it.

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How long do these investigations generally take? Was McCabe given adequate time to respond and refute? That is my basis for saying it was rushed.
These four investigations (House, Senate, FBI OPR, and DOJ IG) can only refer criminal prosecution to the DOJ, but they can definitely make recommendations concerning his employment at the FBI, which they did. McCabe lacked candor, and thus became a liability to them.

McCabe knew what he was doing could both get him fired and get him indicted. He was banking on the support of others. Once Comey, Yates, and Lynch were terminated, he had no protection. He only had the court of public opinion, fueled by Brennan, Comey, and Clapper, to help him.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:28 PM   #3033
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I don't. Remember? I'm a mugwump.
But you caucus with the progressives.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:44 PM   #3034
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McCabe lacked candor, and thus became a liability to them.
I am aware that this is the reason that Sessions (who definitely lacked candor in his own testimony) gave for firing him. I am also aware that McCabe is going to respond and that we have not been given access to all the information.

You may be right, Sessions may be right. But even if he is right he is also a hypocrite who has not provided me with sufficient evidence to make a judgement.

As far as watching the news, I watch as little as I can get away with. If I see a story that is important I will read a little on it. But for the most part the "news" is simply blowhards prognosticating. I hate the news that I am seeing, I certainly don't need to double and triple the time spent with a bunch of useless discussion on possible ways it will play out.

Think about Mueller, he doesn't say a word except to give subpoena's and indictments. Yet there is endless discussion, every day about him, what he might be doing, and this is fueled by all the tweets from Trump and comments made by his lawyers, etc. Eliminate all the commentary and you have enough real news to make headlines on three or four days.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:13 PM   #3035
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But you caucus with the progressives.
Hogwash. I caucus with no one. Sure I don't caucus with Fox, like you. But neither do I caucus with MSNBC, or any other of the news stations. My main news source is Mail Online, and also Drudge Report. Other than that I comb the web, not aligning with left or right reports, but doing my best to see thru biases I find in all of them.

In other words, I caucus with none of them, like you do with your 'right' sources. So you accuse me of what you are doing. You are the one that caucuses. That's why you have to say I do.

I will admit tho. If being a Christian means being a Trump supporter, then I'm not a Christian. At least not that type. Cuz Trump represents no Christian values, no family values, and no Christian morals. Trump is bamboozling Christians.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:25 PM   #3036
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I am aware that this is the reason that Sessions (who definitely lacked candor in his own testimony) gave for firing him. I am also aware that McCabe is going to respond and that we have not been given access to all the information.

You may be right, Sessions may be right. But even if he is right he is also a hypocrite who has not provided me with sufficient evidence to make a judgement.

As far as watching the news, I watch as little as I can get away with. If I see a story that is important I will read a little on it. But for the most part the "news" is simply blowhards prognosticating. I hate the news that I am seeing, I certainly don't need to double and triple the time spent with a bunch of useless discussion on possible ways it will play out.

Think about Mueller, he doesn't say a word except to give subpoena's and indictments. Yet there is endless discussion, every day about him, what he might be doing, and this is fueled by all the tweets from Trump and comments made by his lawyers, etc. Eliminate all the commentary and you have enough real news to make headlines on three or four days.
So you need Sessions to provide you with enough evidence? Has Muller done the same for you?

You felt that the indictment of Flynn was justification and vindication for Muller. If Flynn's conviction is vacated for prosecutorial misconduct, would you reconsider? If McCabe and Strzok are indicted for using the phony Dossier to deceive FISC, would you also admit that the whole Russian collusion was intelligence disinformation -- a presidential coup?

I have pointed out some news sites which are actually doing legitimate investigative work. I thought that would be of interest to you. You are right about all the commentary noise on the airwaves. The real news is coming from what the FBI and DOJ are slowly releasing and a few investigative reporters. None of that is being reported on, except to provide disinformation, discrediting, and general hysteria.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:38 PM   #3037
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Hogwash. I caucus with no one. Sure I don't caucus with Fox, like you. But neither do I caucus with MSNBC, or any other of the news stations. My main news source is Mail Online, and also Drudge Report. Other than that I comb the web, not aligning with left or right reports, but doing my best to see thru biases I find in all of them.

In other words, I caucus with none of them, like you do with your 'right' sources. So you accuse me of what you are doing. You are the one that caucuses. That's why you have to say I do.

I will admit tho. If being a Christian means being a Trump supporter, then I'm not a Christian. At least not that type. Cuz Trump represents no Christian values, no family values, and no Christian morals. Trump is bamboozling Christians.
You say you have no attachment to progressives, yet your views are identical to theirs. You say that you also read conservative sources, yet your views reflect none of theirs.

Why do you worry about Christians so much? Why do you obsess about who they like or don't like? You are convinced that all Christians are fools anyway, so why do you care if they are deceived? Haven't you said repeatedly that Christians have been fooled by a book full of errors?

Freedom of speech means that we give others the right to believe things which we would consider both stupid and wrong. You seem to be unable to accept that.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:41 PM   #3038
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TDS ... you're a hoot Ohio. What about ODS?
What's that?
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:37 AM   #3039
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I don't. Remember? I'm a mugwump.
I was not sure what exactly this meant, so I looked it up.

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Mugwump:

This archetypal American word derives from the Algonquian dialect of Native Americans in Massachusetts. In their language, it meant “war leader”. The Puritan missionary John Eliot used it in his translation of the Bible into their language in 1663 to convey the English words duke, officer and captain.

Mugwump was brought into English in the early nineteenth century as a humorous term for a boss, bigwig, grand panjandrum, or other person in authority, although often one of a minor and inconsequential sort. This example comes from a story in an 1867 issue of Atlantic Monthly: “I’ve got one of your gang in irons — the Great Mugwump himself, I reckon — strongly guarded by men armed to the teeth; so you just ride up here and surrender”.

It hit the big time in 1884, during the presidential election that set Grover Cleveland against the Republican James G Blaine. Some Republicans refused to support Blaine, changed sides, and the New York Sun labelled them little mugwumps. Almost overnight, the sense of the word changed to turncoat. Later, it came to mean a politician who either could not or would not make up his mind on some important issue, or who refused to take a stand when he was expected to do so. Hence the old joke that a mugwump is a person sitting on the fence, with his mug on one side and his wump on the other.

There is also a slangy sense — less known these days, I believe — of a person who has been persuaded by his possession of a minor official position into a sense of self-importance, often becoming obnoxious as a result.
So now I know:
  • You're a native American war leader
  • You think you're the "bigwig" boss of the forum
  • You used to be a Republican, but changed sides, because you hate Cleveland, where I grew up
  • You're actually a "turncoat" traitor
  • You can't make up your mind on any issue
  • You love to sit on fences, with mug on one side and wump on the other
  • You let this moderator thing give you an exaggerated sense of self-importance
So now I know what a MUGWUMP is.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:55 AM   #3040
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If being a Christian means being a Trump supporter, then I'm not a Christian.
Every time you and Zeek repeat this drivel you provide evidence for the "fake news".

1. The article that Zeek provided didn't say Christians support Trump. It didn't say Catholics, or Protestants, or even Evangelicals support Trump.

What it said is that a very strange group they refer to as "White Evangelicals" that adhere to a Christian Nationalist doctrine support Trump.

I have met with many Evangelical groups and they have always been very diverse with whites always being a minority or at the very least not a majority.

If you characterize the LRC as Evangelical then that would have been the whitest Evangelicals I ever met with, yet Chinese and Asians were the majority of that group (when viewed as a worldwide organization and not locally).

But in none of these groups was the US being a Christian Nation ever some kind of doctrine that we adhered to.

What is exceedingly clear is that they did not say that Christians support Trump because Protestants and Catholics and non white Evangelicals would be the lion share of that in the US.

Rather it is white nationalists that identify as Evangelical -- i.e. White supremacists, Brown Shirts, or Nazis. But instead of saying that KKK and Nazis support Trump they want to insinuate that Evangelical Christians support him. This narrative is a confirmation of what Ohio has been preaching about HC BO being the high priest and priestess of some anti Christians political movement.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:04 AM   #3041
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I was not sure what exactly this meant, so I looked it up.

So now I know:
  • You're a native American war leader
  • You think you're the "bigwig" boss of the forum
  • You used to be a Republican, but changed sides, because you hate Cleveland, where I grew up
  • You're actually a "turncoat" traitor
  • You can't make up your mind on any issue
  • You love to sit on fences, with mug on one side and wump on the other
  • You let this moderator thing give you an exaggerated sense of self-importance
So now I know what a MUGWUMP is.
rotflmao ... That was great bro Ohio. I'm still cracking up.

I didn't know all that. I picked it up from Mark Twain, that used it as a term for someone that didn't support either party. But all the rest is pretty cool too.

I love your projections bro Ohio ; even tho I don't always agree with them, as they offend don't fit, but it's obvious that you need them.

Thanks for all that, and the history lesson. You ARE a peach.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:16 AM   #3042
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Every time you and Zeek repeat this drivel you provide evidence for the "fake news".

1. The article that Zeek provided didn't say Christians support Trump. It didn't say Catholics, or Protestants, or even Evangelicals support Trump.

What it said is that a very strange group they refer to as "White Evangelicals" that adhere to a Christian Nationalist doctrine support Trump.

I have met with many Evangelical groups and they have always been very diverse with whites always being a minority or at the very least not a majority.

If you characterize the LRC as Evangelical then that would have been the whitest Evangelicals I ever met with, yet Chinese and Asians were the majority of that group (when viewed as a worldwide organization and not locally).

But in none of these groups was the US being a Christian Nation ever some kind of doctrine that we adhered to.

What is exceedingly clear is that they did not say that Christians support Trump because Protestants and Catholics and non white Evangelicals would be the lion share of that in the US.

Rather it is white nationalists that identify as Evangelical -- i.e. White supremacists, Brown Shirts, or Nazis. But instead of saying that KKK and Nazis support Trump they want to insinuate that Evangelical Christians support him. This narrative is a confirmation of what Ohio has been preaching about HC BO being the high priest and priestess of some anti Christians political movement.
Brother ZNP, your experience is limited. And obviously you haven't been keeping up with Evangelicals and their support of Trump.

If I were you, I'd drop your defensiveness, and start with David Barton of The Wallbuilders. Then I'd look into Franklin Graham III, and Jerry Falwell Jr.. Cuz it's well known that over 80% of Evangelicals voted for Trump.

I get it. You're in the minority, and are shamed by that fact. That's why you are so defensive. If I considered myself to be a Evangelical I'd be defensive too. Thank God I'm not. Sorry for you. They're giving you a bad name.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:20 AM   #3043
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rotflmao ... That was great bro Ohio. I'm still cracking up.

I didn't know all that. I picked it up from Mark Twain, that used it as a term for someone that didn't support either party. But all the rest is pretty cool too.
Glad you enjoyed that.

So, do you still wanna be a Mugwump?

How about our beloved MOTA: Mugwump of the Age.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:27 AM   #3044
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Brother ZNP, your experience is limited. And obviously you haven't been keeping up with Evangelicals and their support of Trump.

If I were you, I'd drop your defensiveness, and start with David Barton of The Wallbuilders. Then I'd look into Franklin Graham III, and Jerry Falwell Jr.. Cuz it's well known that over 80% of Evangelicals voted for Trump.

I get it. You're in the minority, and are shamed by that fact. That's why you are so defensive. If I considered myself to be a Evangelical I'd be defensive too. Thank God I'm not. Sorry for you. They're giving you a bad name.


http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

70% of Americans identify as Christian

Approximately 1/3 of those who identify as Christian identify as Evangelical.

Approximately 1/5th of these Evangelical Christians are white. (https://www.religionnews.com/2017/09...s-study-shows/)

That means 1/15th of Christians in the US identify as “White Evangelical”. However, the criteria is even more specific including this concept of the US being a “christian nation”. Therefore, I find it quite reasonable to suggest we are talking about less than 5% of Christians in the US. That may be a large number, but remember, only 78% of that number supports Trump, so then we are really talking about 4% of Christians in the US.

Yet you take that article to smear all Evangelicals and all Christians.

That is the definition of using statistics to lie. Sorry for you.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:37 AM   #3045
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Yet you take that article to smear all Evangelicals and all Christians.

That is the definition of using statistics to lie. Sorry for you.
I know how much awareness likes Mark Twain, and you know what he said about statistics.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:42 AM   #3046
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Ohio and ZNP feel persecuted. Now here's a case where a child is actually reported to be persecuted for her Christian faith:

ABUJA, Nigeria — Leah Sharibu likes biology, hanging out with friends and wants to be a doctor. The 15-year-old who was among the group of schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram last month is the only one still being held by the militants — because she refused to convert to Islam.

“My daughter is alive, but they wouldn't release her because she is a Christian,” her father Nathan Sharibu said Monday. “They told her they would release her if she converted, but she said she will never become a Muslim. I am very sad, but I am also overjoyed because my daughter did not denounce Christ.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ian/460554002/
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:08 AM   #3047
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Being a Native American Evangelical who supports Trump, I have no illusions that he is worthy to be my pastor. For me it's about policy, knowing that the alternative was far, far worse.

But since ZNP has brought up fake news, why is it that so many still hate Trump when one story after another has been debunked over time?

Remember last year "Russia, Russia, Russia?" Move along folks, nothing here to see.

The explanation for much of "Trump hate" has a lot to do with the endless lopsided smear campaign orchestrated by our media. Yesterday I watched a video clip of Paula Jones and Juanita Broaddrick, who were raped and molested by WJC. They were lied about, ridiculed, slandered, and had their reputations destroyed. By who? Every single media outlet except Fox. Yet today all these same outlets are showcasing Pornstars to attack Trump.

The media knows why they are all doing this. They are "meddling" with our next election by changing viewers minds. They are doing far more than Russia could ever hope to do.

ZNP says he only judges Trump on his own actions. But are not much of them just a retaliation for personal attacks? Neither Clinton nor Obama were ever assaulted like Trump has been, even Jimmy Carter admitted this, so we never got to see how they would act under such pressure.

Perhaps many of my other Native American Evangelicals also see thru the media lies.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:21 AM   #3048
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As an aside.

Trump is famous for giving nicknames. Well he's got one going around on Capital Hill. They're calling him Spanky.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:07 AM   #3049
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Being a Native American Evangelical who supports Trump, I have no illusions that he is worthy to be my pastor. For me it's about policy, knowing that the alternative was far, far worse.

But since ZNP has brought up fake news, why is it that so many still hate Trump when one story after another has been debunked over time?

Remember last year "Russia, Russia, Russia?" Move along folks, nothing here to see.

The explanation for much of "Trump hate" has a lot to do with the endless lopsided smear campaign orchestrated by our media. Yesterday I watched a video clip of Paula Jones and Juanita Broaddrick, who were raped and molested by WJC. They were lied about, ridiculed, slandered, and had their reputations destroyed. By who? Every single media outlet except Fox. Yet today all these same outlets are showcasing Pornstars to attack Trump.

The media knows why they are all doing this. They are "meddling" with our next election by changing viewers minds. They are doing far more than Russia could ever hope to do.

ZNP says he only judges Trump on his own actions. But are not much of them just a retaliation for personal attacks? Neither Clinton nor Obama were ever assaulted like Trump has been, even Jimmy Carter admitted this, so we never got to see how they would act under such pressure.

Perhaps many of my other Native American Evangelicals also see thru the media lies.
Almost. Actually you're a Nativist American. Nativists champion the purported interests of American citizens over those of immigrants, justifying their hostility to immigrants by the use of derogatory stereotypes.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:30 AM   #3050
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Almost. Actually you're a Nativist American. Nativists champion the purported interests of American citizens over those of immigrants, justifying their hostility to immigrants by the use of derogatory stereotypes.
Lots of errors here.

I am a Native American, I was born here. Born in Berea, OH, hence a Berean.

American citizens can be immigrants, and immigrants can be American citizens.

Nativists do NOT champion citizens over immigrants, but champion all law abiding residents over illegal immigrant criminals.

There's nothing hostile about standing up for law and order, protecting one's family and property, and desiring protected borders.

Your use of stereotypes is typical liberal progressive identity politics. If someone does not agree with your narrow views (hey what happened to free speech?) then you resort to prejudicial name-calling, and insist that they must be racist, xenophobic, hateful, misogynist, homophobic, etc.

Like I said, your post is riddled with errors. Like ZNP has stated repeatedly, you are seriously prone to slander.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:59 AM   #3051
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Being a Native American Evangelical who supports Trump, I have no illusions that he is worthy to be my pastor. For me it's about policy, knowing that the alternative was far, far worse.

But since ZNP has brought up fake news, why is it that so many still hate Trump when one story after another has been debunked over time?

Remember last year "Russia, Russia, Russia?" Move along folks, nothing here to see.

The explanation for much of "Trump hate" has a lot to do with the endless lopsided smear campaign orchestrated by our media. Yesterday I watched a video clip of Paula Jones and Juanita Broaddrick, who were raped and molested by WJC. They were lied about, ridiculed, slandered, and had their reputations destroyed. By who? Every single media outlet except Fox. Yet today all these same outlets are showcasing Pornstars to attack Trump.

The media knows why they are all doing this. They are "meddling" with our next election by changing viewers minds. They are doing far more than Russia could ever hope to do.

ZNP says he only judges Trump on his own actions. But are not much of them just a retaliation for personal attacks? Neither Clinton nor Obama were ever assaulted like Trump has been, even Jimmy Carter admitted this, so we never got to see how they would act under such pressure.

Perhaps many of my other Native American Evangelicals also see thru the media lies.
I am currently reading a book about Hitler and I was struck by how his party was against democracy because they had no chance at winning by an election. Therefore they attacked Democracy as a western import, focused on returning to the glory days which also included rule by a king. Today what we see is an attempt to destroy discourse with wild attacks from both sides.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:04 AM   #3052
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Let's commend Trump for standing up for small businesses.

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Shares of Amazon are under pressure, down 5.68% Wednesday morning, following a report President Donald Trump is eyeing legal means to go after the e-commerce behemoth.

Axios' Jonathan Swan says Trump believes Amazon is making life difficult for smaller, locally-owned retailers and wants to find a way to slow down its dominance in online retail. Amazon has repeatedly showed an ability to disrupt entire sectors with corporate announcements. While Trump has not yet decided on any measures, he is considering changing Amazon's tax status or taking the route of antitrust action, Swan's report said.

This isn't the first time Trump has set his sights on the retailer." Amazon is doing great damage to tax paying retailers," Trump tweeted in August. "Towns, cities and states throughout the U.S. are being hurt - many jobs being lost!"

Wednesday's selling comes after a rough day for tech stocks on Tuesday. The sector was slammed by news that the Trump administration was considering a crackdown on Chinese investments into US companies. Amazon shares are up 28% this year before Wednesday's losses.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:02 PM   #3053
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Being a Native American Evangelical who supports Trump, I have no illusions that he is worthy to be my pastor. For me it's about policy, knowing that the alternative was far, far worse.
I don't know about worse ... but not very good. And as far as policy, I know, I know, abortion and Israel. You'd vote for Satan if he promised those policies to you. Why? Cuz those are issues Jesus spent chapter after chapter on. His teaching against abortion was longer than the sermon on the mount. And the temple? Well he said he'd destroy it and rebuild it 2000 years later ... thru Trump.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:42 PM   #3054
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I am currently reading a book about Hitler and I was struck by how his party was against democracy because they had no chance at winning by an election. Therefore they attacked Democracy as a western import, focused on returning to the glory days which also included rule by a king. Today what we see is an attempt to destroy discourse with wild attacks from both sides.
I'm a firm believer in the wisdom of the founding fathers, seen in the Constitution, with 3 equal but separate branches. The further we move from that foundation, the worse our problems get. At its core, the cultural battle we face between conservative and progressive factions, boils down to how far we move from our beginnings.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:45 PM   #3055
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I don't know about worse ... but not very good. And as far as policy, I know, I know, abortion and Israel. You'd vote for Satan if he promised those policies to you. Why? Cuz those are issues Jesus spent chapter after chapter on. His teaching against abortion was longer than the sermon on the mount. And the temple? Well he said he'd destroy it and rebuild it 2000 years later ... thru Trump.
Your disdain for Israel and the unborn almost matches how you feel towards Christians and the Bible.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:46 PM   #3056
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I don't know about worse ... but not very good. And as far as policy, I know, I know, abortion and Israel. You'd vote for Satan if he promised those policies to you. Why? Cuz those are issues Jesus spent chapter after chapter on. His teaching against abortion was longer than the sermon on the mount. And the temple? Well he said he'd destroy it and rebuild it 2000 years later ... thru Trump.
I am not a fan of Trump but this is not a reasonable critique of his policies.

1. Some people like his SCOTUS appointment.

2. Some people like his emphasis on a strong military.

3. Perhaps his approach with N. Korea will be better, too early to tell. The previous approach was obviously ineffective.

4. I do not see any good reason to treat Israel as some kind of red headed step child. We put our embassy in the capital of other countries. Calling this some kind of radical Christian bias is just hypocrisy.

5. Abortion is a big issue for many of us, dismissing this is insulting.

6. $25 billion for a wall represents slightly more than 1/2 of 1% of the US government budget. Since this would go to pay US laborers and contractors The US govt would probably get 40% of this back in taxes in just the first year. Second, I don't see how anyone can dispute that this will make the Mexican border safer and easier to monitor. Therefore the only real issue is if it is worth the $12 billion price tag. If you spread that over 25 years you are talking about $500 million per year for the wall. That is about 1/6th of the annual budget for border security with Mexico each year. But it hardly seems like that big a deal. Perhaps in the final analysis they should only have built $20 billion of the wall. We'll find out in the end.

7. Also, I would not be surprised if in the final analysis his administration gets higher marks for the conflicts in the Middle East compared to Obama, Clinton and Bush.
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:36 PM   #3057
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I don't know about worse ... but not very good. And as far as policy, I know, I know, abortion and Israel. You'd vote for Satan if he promised those policies to you. Why? Cuz those are issues Jesus spent chapter after chapter on. His teaching against abortion was longer than the sermon on the mount. And the temple? Well he said he'd destroy it and rebuild it 2000 years later ... thru Trump.
Why do you have so little concern for the lives of the most innocent and vulnerable of all? Why kind of cold-blooded psychopath could actually be an abortionist? We're not talking about a few random murders, but more than a million a year just in the US.

We are the only nation on earth who really cares about Israel. They are surrounded by enemies who hate them, and have repeatedly tried to exterminate them. Sure, the temple was destroyed in AD70, but that helped bring the Gospel to the nations. Do you have any idea how the Gospel has benefited all mankind? Somehow you think this world would be a better place without Jesus, the Bible, or the church. You ought to go to some third or fourth world country, and get a glimpse of life without the Gospel.

Romans 11.20-21 tells us "not to be high-minded, but to fear God. For if He did not spare Israel, the natural branches, broken off due to unbelief, neither will He spare you, the Gentile branches." The time is coming for Israel to be restored, and the Gentiles to be judged.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:30 AM   #3058
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How slow the wheels of justice turn ...

COLLUSION DELUSION: New Documents Show OBAMA Officials, FBI COORDINATED in Anti-Trump Probe
Documents obtained by congressional investigators suggest possible coordination by Obama White House officials, the CIA and the FBI into the investigation into President Donald Trump’s campaign. Those senior Obama officials used unsubstantiated evidence to launch allegations in the media that the Trump campaign was colluding with Russia during the run-up to the 2016 presidential election, according to newly discovered documents and communications obtained by Congress.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:38 AM   #3059
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Spanky's at it again. He promised Mexico would pay for the wall. We know what Mexico said to that.

Then the pubbies wouldn't fund it in the omnibill. Oh darn.

Then Spanky said the military got a lot of money in the omnibill, so they could pay for the wall. But congress would have to appropriate those funds. So fat chance for that.

Poor Spanky. No one wants to pay for the wall.

So Spanky started a Gofundme account.

Now, bro Ohio, who wants the wall, can pay for the wall.

Go Spanky.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:11 AM   #3060
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Spanky's at it again. He promised Mexico would pay for the wall. We know what Mexico said to that.

Then the pubbies wouldn't fund it in the omnibill. Oh darn.

Then Spanky said the military got a lot of money in the omnibill, so they could pay for the wall. But congress would have to appropriate those funds. So fat chance for that.

Poor Spanky. No one wants to pay for the wall.

So Spanky started a Gofundme account.

Now, bro Ohio, who wants the wall, can pay for the wall.

Go Spanky.
We are all paying handsomely for NOT having a wall.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:23 AM   #3061
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We are all paying handsomely for NOT having a wall.
Put your money where your mouth is.
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:54 PM   #3062
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Ohio says that it's just the media that's putting Trump down. But it's really Trump himself that makes Trump look like a buffoon.

“You can see a chicken as a penguin, but it’s still a chicken.”

Donald Trump tweeted a series of photos as he hailed the beginning of the construction of his long-promised border wall. “Great briefing this afternoon on the start of our Southern Border WALL,” he gushed on Wednesday.

The problem is, this is just a replacement of a fence dating back to the 1990s in Calexico in Southern California, just a 2 mile stretch, that was planned way before Trump. It's not the Trump border wall.

So is this example of Trump's buffoonery the media's fault, or Trump's? Should the media ignore Trump's delusions, or outright lies.

Trump: "You just say it and they believe it."

And now I'm sure I'm just a dreaded liberal for pointing it out ... too.
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:24 AM   #3063
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Ralph Peters, the retired Army officer who was a Fox News commentator for a decade said in an op ed in WaPo "There is indeed a witch hunt, and it’s led by Fox against Robert Mueller."
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:45 AM   #3064
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Ralph Peters, the retired Army officer who was a Fox News commentator for a decade said in an op ed in WaPo "There is indeed a witch hunt, and it’s led by Fox against Robert Mueller."
Obviously Peters is misinformed. I used to like that guy.

for all his work, Muller has a process crime against Gen Flynn which may be overturned here shortly. Flynn pleaded out to save his family. Where is the collusion with the Trump Team? There is none. Meddling yes; collusion no.

Keep going Muller! You should be able to indict the entire Russian government. Get Putin too! Why don't you find those guys who murdered that father/daughter in England? For all the money you spent so far, you should be able to find them. Perhaps secret agent Christopher Steele can help.
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:30 AM   #3065
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"Trump is gearing America up for war." The only way to stop him may be to get him out of office. Yet Trump hasn't shown that he would be above starting a war just to stay in office.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...327-story.html
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:27 AM   #3066
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"Trump is gearing America up for war." The only way to stop him may be to get him out of office. Yet Trump hasn't shown that he would be above starting a war just to stay in office.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...327-story.html
There is evidence that he would crash our stock market to make his friends rich, and that he would attack some of our best high tech companies as payback for them giving him negative reviews. But what is the evidence that he would start a war to stay in office?
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Old 04-01-2018, 05:28 PM   #3067
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China imposing new tariffs on US meat, fruit, other products

I don't believe that China can sustain this. 800 million peasants are on a hand to mouth existence, raising the cost of food could be catastrophic. The other 200 million live from exports with the US being a major player in that.

As stupid as a trade war is, this may turn out to be a bold strategy to bring about better trade and foreign exchange deals with China.
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Old 04-02-2018, 03:11 AM   #3068
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There is evidence that he would crash our stock market to make his friends rich, and that he would attack some of our best high tech companies as payback for them giving him negative reviews. But what is the evidence that he would start a war to stay in office?
The article shows evidence Trump is already heading that way:

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Upon taking office, [Trump] abandoned ...populist postures. Trump sent more troops to both Afghanistan, sustaining the United States' longest war into its 17th year, and Syria, with the Pentagon announcing that they would stay even after the Islamic State was defeated. He doubled down on U.S. support in Saudi Arabia's criminal assault on Yemen, while increasing the pace of drone bombings.

And now he has brought the most extreme and unreconstructed of hawks into the White House. New and more dangerous wars of aggression seem virtually inescapable. Bolton, supported by Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Pompeo, will presumably push to tear up the Iran deal in May. An attack by Israel or the United States on Iran's nuclear facilities will be the likely result, as Bolton has urged in writing. Bolton, supported by Pompeo, likely will use unrealistic demands to blow up the North Korea talks. If Bolton succeeds, he'll push for far more than a "bloody nose" attack on Kim's regime.
Add to that Trump's unchecked ambition, unscrupulous tactics, lack of compassion, duplicitousness and cunning. He has as a model the recent fact of history that Dubya recently from unpopular to so popular that no one in Washington would oppose him publicly when he went to war with the middle east. All that is required is some trumped up act of provocation by North Korea or Iran. History is riddled with tyrants who use war as a strategy for staying in power. Seems it would be ideal for Trump to get us embroiled in a scary war this year before the midterm election so he can have maximal impact on the outcome.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:24 AM   #3069
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The article shows evidence Trump is already heading that way:



Add to that Trump's unchecked ambition, unscrupulous tactics, lack of compassion, duplicitousness and cunning. He has as a model the recent fact of history that Dubya recently from unpopular to so popular that no one in Washington would oppose him publicly when he went to war with the middle east. All that is required is some trumped up act of provocation by North Korea or Iran. History is riddled with tyrants who use war as a strategy for staying in power. Seems it would be ideal for Trump to get us embroiled in a scary war this year before the midterm election so he can have maximal impact on the outcome.
So, in short, the concern is that his threat to rip up the Iran deal + Bolton, Pompeo and Mattis will support him in a war with Iran? Seems like fear mongering.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:31 AM   #3070
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So, in short, the concern is that his threat to rip up the Iran deal + Bolton, Pompeo and Mattis will support him in a war with Iran? Seems like fear mongering.
We'll see.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:16 PM   #3071
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Pastor claims it's not hypocrisy for Evangelical Christians to support Trump. It's theology. https://www.texasobserver.org/the-li...-donald-trump/
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:10 PM   #3072
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501 Days in Swampland
A constant drip of self-dealing. And this is just what we know so far …https://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...-timeline.html
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:06 PM   #3073
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501 Days in Swampland
A constant drip of self-dealing. And this is just what we know so far …https://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...-timeline.html
The problem is that it was very obvious that Trump was a swamp animal before getting elected so we knew what we were getting ourselves into ... and still did it.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:22 PM   #3074
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The problem is that it was very obvious that Trump was a swamp animal before getting elected so we knew what we were getting ourselves into ... and still did it.
You can't blame him for thinking he would get away with it, everyone else had.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:46 AM   #3075
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Seems like the consensus of leaders of the Religious Right around Trump is breaking down. Who's right?

Family Talk Founder and President Dr. James Dobson recently called the omnibus spending bill signed by President Trump "a betrayal" to evangelical voters, especially since the bill includes funding for Planned Parenthood. https://radio.foxnews.com/2018/03/30...elical-voters/

Lou Dobbs To Trump’s Conservative Critics: “In Any Other Period In Our History, He Would Be Canonized” https://radio.foxnews.com/2018/04/02...-be-canonized/
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:09 PM   #3076
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Beloved Liberal Icons caring for your children ...

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Old 04-03-2018, 05:52 PM   #3077
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Beloved Liberal Icons caring for your children ...

Boy ain't that the truth. That's why I deleted my account.

But many young ones are addicted to social media. Facebook will take a hit, but it will promise to be good now, and will live on.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:34 PM   #3078
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Boy ain't that the truth. That's why I deleted my account.

But many young ones are addicted to social media. Facebook will take a hit, but it will promise to be good now, and will live on.
I downloaded everything on my account and there was nothing. What they did have was conjecture (things that people I am friends with like, etc).

I think it is very sad when you see what many people post, it seems that many people are desperately lonely.
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Old 04-03-2018, 07:40 PM   #3079
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I downloaded everything on my account and there was nothing. What they did have was conjecture (things that people I am friends with like, etc).

I think it is very sad when you see what many people post, it seems that many people are desperately lonely.
“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.” - Henry David Thoreau - Walden
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:59 PM   #3080
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Pruitt is a one man environmental and ethical disaster https://www.npr.org/2018/04/03/59914...ics-violations
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:17 PM   #3081
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Trump who has cheated on all three wives, dodged the draft, had to pay out $20 million settlement for his scam university, refuses to release his taxes, and is under federal investigation for cheating in the 2016 federal election, just referred to his predecessor as "Cheatin' Obama". That's gold plated hypocrisy. Trump's "turn to Jesus" touted by Paula White and James Dobson was a scam by a master scam artist.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:57 AM   #3082
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Trump who has cheated on all three wives, dodged the draft, had to pay out $20 million settlement for his scam university, refuses to release his taxes, and is under federal investigation for cheating in the 2016 federal election, just referred to his predecessor as "Cheatin' Obama". That's gold plated hypocrisy. Trump's "turn to Jesus" touted by Paula White and James Dobson was scam by a master scam artist.
He's just a baby Christian. That still lies like a medieval Christian.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:08 AM   #3083
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He's just a baby Christian. That still lies like a medieval Christian.
There's a serpent in every paradise!
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:56 PM   #3084
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Your meme should show Zuckertrump. Facebook today said the personal information of up to 87 million people, most of them Americans, may have been improperly shared during the 2016 election with Cambridge Analytica, a political consulting firm connected to our beloved President Trump. The new figure sharply increased the company’s previous estimate of how many users’ information was harvested by Cambridge Analytica. For weeks, Facebook had said that the data of about 50 million users was at issue.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:02 PM   #3085
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Where's the Immigration Crisis? U.S. Border Patrol Reports Illegal Border Crossings At Record Low
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta.../#754ec6f4b737

Trump was just overreacting to a story he heard on Fox News making him look bad cuz he signed the budget bill despite the fact that it didn't finance his wall. He doesn't care what it costs us or who he hurts to protect his gargantuan self-image.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:10 PM   #3086
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Your meme should show Zuckertrump. Facebook today said the personal information of up to 87 million people, most of them Americans, may have been improperly shared during the 2016 election with Cambridge Analytica, a political consulting firm connected to our beloved President Trump. The new figure sharply increased the company’s previous estimate of how many users’ information was harvested by Cambridge Analytica. For weeks, Facebook had said that the data of about 50 million users was at issue.
Talk about a dissembling campaign of misinformation!

Zuckerberg now claims FB helped Trump!

Someone please tell Hillary that this is reason number #37 why she lost.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:10 PM   #3087
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Talk about a dissembling campaign of misinformation!

Zuckerberg now claims FB helped Trump!

Someone please tell Hillary that this is reason number #37 why she lost.
No. Channel 4 News, a news program broadcast by the British public service, conducted a four-month investigation into Cambridge Analytica starting in November 2017. Alexander Nix, chief executive of Cambridge Analytica, in the third part of the series, stated that Cambridge Analytica "ran all the digital campaign" for Trump. Nix said they used communications that would be self destructive, leaving no incriminating evidence. This has been widely reported.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:43 PM   #3088
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No. Channel 4 News, a news program broadcast by the British public service, conducted a four-month investigation into Cambridge Analytica starting in November 2017. Alexander Nix, chief executive of Cambridge Analytica, in the third part of the series, stated that Cambridge Analytica "ran all the digital campaign" for Trump. Nix said they used communications that would be self destructive, leaving no incriminating evidence. This has been widely reported.
Well, if this is true it shows that the company knew that what they were doing was illegal and were planning to cover it up. That opens the door for RICO since by definition this would be a criminal conspiracy.

They better hope no one finds out. Because I would guess that there are some computer programmers working for the company that didn't sign up for 30 years in jail that would be willing to trade freedom for all the evidence.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:59 PM   #3089
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Well, if this is true it shows that the company knew that what they were doing was illegal and were planning to cover it up. That opens the door for RICO since by definition this would be a criminal conspiracy.

They better hope no one finds out. Because I would guess that there are some computer programmers working for the company that didn't sign up for 30 years in jail that would be willing to trade freedom for all the evidence.
Yeah and I heard on the news that Facebook had some of their own people embedded in Cambridge Analytica helping them with the project. That's why Zuckerberg sounds more contrite then before and is saying they need to be government regulated and so forth. He's trying to get out in front of this.

Hey man, they were just doing God's work getting King Cyrus elected so he could help the Children of Israel [Evangelical Christianity] and get the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem. Sometimes you've got to rob Pharoah for the greater good[God's eternal purpose]. Witness Lee taught us that, right?
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:57 PM   #3090
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Hey man, they were just doing God's work getting King Cyrus elected so he could help the Children of Israel [Evangelical Christianity] and get the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem. Sometimes you've got to rob Pharoah for the greater good[God's eternal purpose]. Witness Lee taught us that, right?
Hi ZNP, what do you make of this?

Is zeek a legitimate prophet or a false prophet?
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Old 04-05-2018, 07:44 AM   #3091
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Hi ZNP, what do you make of this?

Is zeek a legitimate prophet or a false prophet?
According to our dear brother Doug Krieger, on his Tribnet 7000 Facebook group (which I'm no longer in) bro zeek is a legit prophet.

Trump is not just a disruptor, he's also a bringer ; a bringer of the temple ; a bringer of Armageddon ; a bringer of Jesus in the clouds with power and glory.

Why? Because history is repeating itself. And today we're living like the days of King Cyrus. We're living Cyrus all over again.

How many times are we going to keep doing this? It's the very definition of insanity, so I'm told.

We can't live out the Bible like a bunch of Cargo Cultist's, and expect it to work out. It just doesn't work that way. Either God does it, or it will just be like another bunch of primitive primates mimicking ways to bring the cargo. Okay, for those that may not be familiar with the Cargo Cults, I link it here (Wiki doesn't do it justice, but it's a starter) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Trump ain't Cyrus! Cyrus wasn't a clown. Read about Cyrus. He was ruthless. He was Persian, and Zoroastrian. And yes, in the story, God used him, for is favorite people to have a Holy Temple, a little place for God to have a tiny place, to come and visit his chosen race (is God a racist?).

Are we really wanting that all over again? Seriously? We really want the restoration of a teeny place for God to come to? Seriously?

But I have to admit that it would be so Trump like, for him to want to stand up in the finished temple and declare himself God.

So Trump voters !!!! Listen up !!! You voted for the son of perdition.
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:41 AM   #3092
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Hi ZNP, what do you make of this?

Is zeek a legitimate prophet or a false prophet?
I think using "the greater good" to justify criminal behavior is simply Satan disguising himself as an angel of light.
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:43 AM   #3093
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So Trump voters !!!! Listen up !!! You voted for the son of perdition.
Before anyone takes this seriously they might want to do a little more reading on the positions that Awareness has taken and espoused.
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:54 AM   #3094
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Trump is not just a disruptor, he's also a bringer ; a bringer of the temple ; a bringer of Armageddon ; a bringer of Jesus in the clouds with power and glory.
Wow! I missed out on the all that?

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So Trump voters !!!! Listen up !!! You voted for the son of perdition.
You have really gone off the deep end! The "son of perdition" apparently was Judas and perished long ago. (Jn 17.12)

You not only hate Trump, labeling him with the worst of epitaphs, but all of his voters too. You might want to consider forgiveness, since Jesus taught us "Forgive us ... as we forgive others."

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I think using "the greater good" to justify criminal behavior is simply Satan disguising himself as an angel of light.
I don't think zeek is guilty of criminal behavior, I'm just asking if his prophecies are legit.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:30 AM   #3095
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Wow! I missed out on the all that?


You have really gone off the deep end! The "son of perdition" apparently was Judas and perished long ago. (Jn 17.12)
2Th 2:3* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;*
2Th 2:4* Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:34 AM   #3096
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2Th 2:3* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;*
2Th 2:4* Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Wow I missed this! The Jews have rebuilt the temple and Trump has set himself down in it! You would have thought that would have been covered in the news.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:46 AM   #3097
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Wow I missed this! The Jews have rebuilt the temple and Trump has set himself down in it! You would have thought that would have been covered in the news.
I found it in one of your local papers ...

Bibi and the Christian Right Agree: Trump Is the New Cyrus the Great

How did you miss it?
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:48 AM   #3098
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I found it in one of your local papers ...

Bibi and the Christian Right Agree: Trump Is the New Cyrus the Great

How did you miss it?
Then bro zeek is a legit prophet ...
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:43 AM   #3099
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Trump says ‘pain’ from China tariffs will make US ‘much stronger’

I guess we're so tired of winning that we need some pain. It will make us stronger. So says Spanky.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/38...-much-stronger
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:42 PM   #3100
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Trump says ‘pain’ from China tariffs will make US ‘much stronger’

I guess we're so tired of winning that we need some pain. It will make us stronger. So says Spanky.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/38...-much-stronger
The US constitutes 2/3 of China's exports, whereas China imports a tiny fraction of US GDP. We can survive a trade war with China, they can't survive a trade war with us. However, they could use the nuclear option, try to redeem all of their US bonds. If they did that our currency would crash, inflation would skyrocket, our bond market would collapse, and their major trading partner would go bust. The other option for China, of course, is to stop manipulating their currency and be a better WTO partner.

During the 70s it made sense to have a very favorable trade arrangement with China, that was when their trade amounted to $2 billion. But now that their trade amounts to $633 billion it is time to be a more equal partner. I agree with Trump.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:20 PM   #3101
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The US constitutes 2/3 of China's exports, whereas China imports a tiny fraction of US GDP. We can survive a trade war with China, they can't survive a trade war with us. However, they could use the nuclear option, try to redeem all of their US bonds. If they did that our currency would crash, inflation would skyrocket, our bond market would collapse, and their major trading partner would go bust. The other option for China, of course, is to stop manipulating their currency and be a better WTO partner.

During the 70s it made sense to have a very favorable trade arrangement with China, that was when their trade amounted to $2 billion. But now that their trade amounts to $633 billion it is time to be a more equal partner. I agree with Trump.
Or China could crimp our access to their rare earth metals, needed in everything from cell phones, defense, satellites, and most technology. That's another nuclear option at China's disposal.
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:54 PM   #3102
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Or China could crimp our access to their rare earth metals, needed in everything from cell phones, defense, satellites, and most technology. That's another nuclear option at China's disposal.
China doesn't have a monopoly on rare earth metals. At best they have the best price. The result of a trade war would be the development of other suppliers. The risk to China is manifold:

1. Do they ramp down production and shutter some mining operations?
2. Does a competitor get an inside shot at selling to the US and perhaps taking future business away as well.

The worst case for us is that we have to pay extra for our Lithium or some other metal. Instead of $100 for a battery, maybe it will now be $105. We'll survive.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:14 PM   #3103
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China doesn't have a monopoly on rare earth metals. At best they have the best price. The result of a trade war would be the development of other suppliers. The risk to China is manifold:

1. Do they ramp down production and shutter some mining operations?
2. Does a competitor get an inside shot at selling to the US and perhaps taking future business away as well.

The worst case for us is that we have to pay extra for our Lithium or some other metal. Instead of $100 for a battery, maybe it will now be $105. We'll survive.
From The Hill :
China's secret trade war option: A rare earth embargo
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...rgo/ar-AAvnYmE
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:42 PM   #3104
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From The Hill :
China's secret trade war option: A rare earth embargo
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...rgo/ar-AAvnYmE
https://mrdata.usgs.gov/mineral-resources/ree.html
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:37 AM   #3105
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I think a lot of people are missing the key point in this whole Pruitt "scandal". Trump, who does know about the market value of real estate, says that the market for upscale condo in the best DC neighborhoods is $50 a day! That is great news! This puts these very nice condos into my price range, I need to think about possible vacation to DC.
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:34 AM   #3106
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So rare earth metals is a misnomer?
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:33 AM   #3107
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So rare earth metals is a misnomer?
Gold is a "rare earth metal", doesn't mean there is only one country on Earth where it is found. It could be that there is one country that has a very well developed mining operation (S. Africa). Same with oil. There is a remarkable amount of oil found in the Middle East (many theories on why that is, no answers) but oil can be found everywhere in the world.

Why would the US military allow themselves to be dependent on China? The only possible valid reason is that it is economic, but we can find the same materials elsewhere at a higher price.

The problem with what Trump is doing is that he needs the European union to join the US if we are to prevail. If I know this then certainly many in the State department know this as well. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and perhaps by announcing these tariffs unilaterally it provides cover for smaller and more vulnerable countries to join us without becoming a target of Chinese ire.

I have yet to hear one person argue that China is a good actor and is undeserving of being blamed for unfair trade practices. No one is disputing the fundamental issue, the only real debate is over how to accomplish this. Since no one up to this point has been successful I would completely tune out the Democrats (16 years of Clinton and Obama with nada). I give the Republicans a pass since both Bush's were involved in wars that needed coalitions and didn't need to start a trade war at the same time.

I think prior to that the primary goal of foreign policy was to encourage China to trade with the rest of the world and enter the WTO
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:41 PM   #3108
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Gold is a "rare earth metal", doesn't mean there is only one country on Earth where it is found. It could be that there is one country that has a very well developed mining operation (S. Africa). Same with oil. There is a remarkable amount of oil found in the Middle East (many theories on why that is, no answers) but oil can be found everywhere in the world.

Why would the US military allow themselves to be dependent on China? The only possible valid reason is that it is economic, but we can find the same materials elsewhere at a higher price.

The problem with what Trump is doing is that he needs the European union to join the US if we are to prevail. If I know this then certainly many in the State department know this as well. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and perhaps by announcing these tariffs unilaterally it provides cover for smaller and more vulnerable countries to join us without becoming a target of Chinese ire.

I have yet to hear one person argue that China is a good actor and is undeserving of being blamed for unfair trade practices. No one is disputing the fundamental issue, the only real debate is over how to accomplish this. Since no one up to this point has been successful I would completely tune out the Democrats (16 years of Clinton and Obama with nada). I give the Republicans a pass since both Bush's were involved in wars that needed coalitions and didn't need to start a trade war at the same time.

I think prior to that the primary goal of foreign policy was to encourage China to trade with the rest of the world and enter the WTO
Right now the tariffs are just talk and bluster. Both Trump and Jinping are like Puffer fish, trying to look bigger than they actually are.

Say what you like about the demmies, as in Clinton and Obama, but China is a sovereign country. And it's big, and owns 1.2 Trillion in U.S. Treasury Bonds. Didn't we borrow from China to fund Bush's wars?

Obviously being soft, like the demmies, didn't work. China just grew stronger and stronger.

Right now it's all bluffing, with Trump even going so far as to admit it will hurt us. But the pain, Spanky says, will make us stronger.

Maybe you're more informed. I read that, mining rare earth metals is cost prohibitive, and not profitable to energy companies. But state run mining can undercut the market. Which is why China is presently our primacy source for rare earth metals. So maybe rare earth metals can be found everywhere, but getting them is the problem. China, being state run can get them.

But like I said. It's all bluster right now. Talk, BIG TALK, and talk. Maybe being tough will work. That's where Spanky might excel. He's good at bullying.

We'll see. Anything to keep the loose impulsive cannon away from the button.

MAGA, is really all about MTGA. Let's see if he is. Time will tell.
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:43 AM   #3109
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'I'm A Holocaust Survivor—Trump's America Feels Like Germany Before Nazis Took Over'
www.newsweek.com/im-holocaust-survivor-trumps-america-feels-germany-nazis-took-over-876965
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:05 AM   #3110
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'I'm A Holocaust Survivor—Trump's America Feels Like Germany Before Nazis Took Over'
www.newsweek.com/im-holocaust-survivor-trumps-america-feels-germany-nazis-took-over-876965
Not one of these Holocaust survivors is talking about today, rather as children in the 40's.

This is how Fake News Newsweek manipulates stories to say that these folks are reliving the Holocaust today.
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:51 AM   #3111
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For those who still respect Muller ...

Sunday on New York AM 970 radio’s “The Cats Roundtable,” Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz ripped special counsel Robert Mueller, calling him “a partisan and zealot.”

“I think Mueller is a zealot,” Dershowitz told host John Catsimatidis. “I don’t think he cares whether he hurts Democrats or Republicans, but he’s a partisan and a zealot. Look, he’s the guy who kept four innocent people in prison for many years in order to protect the cover of Whitey Bulger as an FBI informer. … Those of us in Boston don’t have such a high regard for Mueller because we remember this story. The government had to pay out tens of millions of dollars because Whitey Bulger, a notorious mass murderer, became a government informer against the mafia.

“[T]hese four people – two of them died in jail, and two of them spent long, long periods of time in jail. And that’s regarded in Boston as one of the great scandals of modern judicial history. And Mueller was right at the center of it,“ he recalled.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:51 PM   #3112
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Drain the swamp!
Agents Raid Office of Trump Lawyer Michael Cohen in Connection With Stormy Daniels Payments.
A U.S. Attorney from Southern District of NY that Trump appointed, executed the search warrants. [That could explain why Trump called it disgraceful. That guy was supposed to do his bidding instead of executing the law like Sessions was supposed to.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-rai...ice-1523306297

Upon hearing about the raid, Trump, who identifies the country's interests with his own, went on a tirade "It's an attack on our country in a true sense. It's an attack on what we all stand for." He seems to think we all stand for keeping Stormy quiet. He's coming apart and it's not pretty. Of course he went off at Sessions again. He's ruminating. There are many national and world-wide crises that require the full and immediate attention of a rational president. he's not particularly coherent on a good day. I think he needs a leave of absence so he can attend to his personal affairs.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:59 PM   #3113
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"No collusion, no collusion, no collusion."

Russian elite invested nearly $100 million in Trump buildings.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...rump-property/


BREAKING NEWS
A Ukrainian magnate paid Donald Trump’s charity $150,000 in 2015 after Mr. Trump gave a video talk. Robert Mueller is said to be investigating. The special counsel is investigating a payment made to President Trump’s foundation by a Ukrainian steel magnate for a talk during the campaign, according to three people briefed on the matter, as part of a broader examination of streams of foreign money to Mr. Trump and his associates in the years leading up to the election.

I repeat "No collusion."

On a side note, it is sad to see Evangelical Christianity on the wrong side of history.
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Old 04-10-2018, 07:23 AM   #3114
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A review of a CFPB database obtained by the AP through a Freedom of Information request shows that the bureau issued an average of two to four enforcement actions a month under former Director Richard Cordray, President Obama's appointee. But the database shows zero enforcement actions have been taken since Nov. 21, 2017, three days before Cordray resigned.

Before Mulvaney, the bureau used enforcement actions to extract billions of dollars in relief for consumers from financial companies and to stop companies from doing harm. Bank of America was ordered to return $727 million to consumers for deceptive credit card practices in 2015 — the largest award in the bureau's history — but the CFPB has issued dozens of smaller actions to get relief for student borrowers, victims of debt collection companies and bank customers.

In the roughly seven years it has been in existence, the bureau has returned $3.97 billion in cash back to American consumers through enforcement actions and an additional $7.93 billion in other types of relief, such as lower loan balances or debt relief, based on the CFPB's records. The bureau estimates roughly one of every 10 Americans has received some sort of reimbursement or relief due to the bureau's enforcement work since it was created.
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Old 04-10-2018, 07:34 AM   #3115
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ID:	206 Is this what Trump means?
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Old 04-10-2018, 07:57 AM   #3116
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Is this what Trump means?
Do you have any concerns that attorney-client privilege has been abolished?

Even if prosecuting mob bosses, they would not breech it.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:01 AM   #3117
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Do you have any concerns that attorney-client privilege has been abolished?

Even if prosecuting mob bosses, they would not breech it.
I think the FBI is concerned with violations of campaign finance law.

No one has been convicted of any crime yet. Seizing records is not a violation. If it falls under attorney client privilege then they can argue that with the judge who can decide if this is the case, if so it would be excluded from any trial.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:06 AM   #3118
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Drain the swamp!
Agents Raid Office of Trump Lawyer Michael Cohen in Connection With Stormy Daniels Payments.
A U.S. Attorney from Southern District of NY that Trump appointed, executed the search warrants. [That could explain why Trump called it disgraceful. That guy was supposed to do his bidding instead of executing the law like Sessions was supposed to.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-rai...ice-1523306297

Upon hearing about the raid, Trump, who identifies the country's interests with his own, went on a tirade "It's an attack on our country in a true sense. It's an attack on what we all stand for." He seems to think we all stand for keeping Stormy quiet. He's coming apart and it's not pretty. Of course he went off at Sessions again. He's ruminating. There are many national and world-wide crises that require the full and immediate attention of a rational president. he's not particularly coherent on a good day. I think he needs a leave of absence so he can attend to his personal affairs.
This investigation is all fake news from Russia. The raid didn't happen. And even Trump's response was all fake. There's actually nothing really going on at all.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:27 AM   #3119
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I think the FBI is concerned with violations of campaign finance law.

No one has been convicted of any crime yet. Seizing records is not a violation. If it falls under attorney client privilege then they can argue that with the judge who can decide if this is the case, if so it would be excluded from any trial.
Even if a judge excludes it, and we all know this whole thing will never go to court, the docs will get leaked to the Press and twisted to smear Trump.

Just in time for the Midterms.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:39 AM   #3120
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This investigation is all fake news from Russia. The raid didn't happen. And even Trump's response was all fake. There's actually nothing really going on at all.
I saw a "convincing" youtube that Parkland was all fake. Never happened.

Then just yesterday, one guy supposedly shot 5x at close range with a military style AR-15 rifle with high power rounds was released from the hospital.

There is good reason to be skeptical of all news.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:55 AM   #3121
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There is good reason to be skeptical of all news.
Yes! Yes! I realized that way back when all the news went all in for all the reasons Bush & Co. -- Cheney - Project for New American Century -- gave for preempting Iraq.
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:30 AM   #3122
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Even if a judge excludes it, and we all know this whole thing will never go to court, the docs will get leaked to the Press and twisted to smear Trump.

Just in time for the Midterms.
If that happens Trump can argue corruption, fake news, and drain the swamp. This will motivate his base to come out and vote.
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Old 04-10-2018, 12:06 PM   #3123
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If that happens Trump can argue corruption, fake news, and drain the swamp. This will motivate his base to come out and vote.
Like Trump said, he could shoot somebody on Fifth Ave and his ratings would go up ... specially if it was a man of color. But I think the Evangelical supporters would turn on him if he shot an innocent Evangelical Christian.

I'm wondering when all the politicians, on both sides, specially the pubbies, turn and consider him a liability.
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Old 04-10-2018, 12:24 PM   #3124
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I'm wondering when all the politicians, on both sides, specially the pubbies, turn and consider him a liability.
Lots of politicians on both sides are glad we don't have some shiite wimp in the white house anymore.
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Old 04-10-2018, 01:08 PM   #3125
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Talking about fake news :

The biggest Black Lives Matter page on Facebook is a FAKE and has raked in more than $100,000 and 'run by a WHITE Australian man'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...book-FAKE.html
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Old 04-10-2018, 02:56 PM   #3126
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Even if prosecuting mob bosses, they would not breech it.
Not true. Even Tom Hagen told Kay he couldn't accept the letter to Michael because a Judge would rule that indicated he knew where the fugitive from the Law was and he could be prosecuted. No attorney client privilege for Michael and Tom if there is the suggestion of the attorney being involved in a crime.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #3127
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Not true. Even Tom Hagen told Kay he couldn't accept the letter to Michael because a Judge would rule that indicated he knew where the fugitive from the Law was and he could be prosecuted. No attorney client privilege for Michael and Tom if there is the suggestion of the attorney being involved in a crime.
How about something based on real life.
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Old 04-10-2018, 05:18 PM   #3128
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How about something based on real life.
Lawyer convicted of racketeering in scam Florida 'charity' for veterans
(https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...flna8C11381423)

2 Former Judges, Lawyer Convicted in Corruption Case
Courts: Three found guilty of mail fraud, conspiracy to commit racketeering. Attorney had showered San Diego jurists with gifts. They gave him special treatment.
October 19, 1996
(http://articles.latimes.com/1996-10-...orruption-case)

Ex-Bryan Cave Lawyer Convicted of Fraud in Maxim Deal Is Disbarred
Newkirk’s monthlong fraud trial in late 2015 drew headlines across a broad spectrum of New York press and many lawyers followed its twists and turns. (https://www.law.com/newyorklawjourna...20180310201815)
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:52 AM   #3129
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Lawyer convicted of racketeering in scam Florida 'charity' for veterans
I didn't see where the Atty-client privilege was breached.

Anyways, not good for the US. Not good for the 4th Amend.

But all you Trump haters can rejoice. But don't blame him if things go bad.
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:50 AM   #3130
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I didn't see where the Atty-client privilege was breached.

Anyways, not good for the US. Not good for the 4th Amend.

But all you Trump haters can rejoice. But don't blame him if things go bad.
No one said that Attorney client privilege has been breached. He is not exempt from a search warrant by the FBI issued by a judge at the request of the Justice dept.

However, before the documents seized are used in a trial lawyers not part of the prosecution will examine and remove anything that would violate attorney privilege.
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Old 04-11-2018, 01:48 PM   #3131
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(c) A lawyer may reveal client confidences and secrets, to the extent reasonably necessary:
(1) to prevent a criminal act that the lawyer reasonably believes is likely to result in death or substantial bodily harm absent disclosure of the client’s secrets or confidences by the lawyer; or
(2) to prevent the bribery or intimidation of witnesses, jurors, court officials, or other persons who are involved in proceedings before a tribunal if the lawyer reasonably believes that such acts are likely to result absent disclosure of the client’s confidences or secrets by the lawyer.
(d) When a client has used or is using a lawyer’s services to further a crime or fraud, the lawyer may reveal client confidences and secrets, to the extent reasonably necessary:
(1) to prevent the client from committing the crime or fraud if it is reasonably certain to result in substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another; or
(2) to prevent, mitigate or rectify substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another that is reasonably certain to result or has resulted from the client’s commission of the crime or fraud.

Trump's claim that the FBI act violates all that we stand for in the US is idiotic. His crying about Attorney client privilege is also idiotic. The FBI act doesn't violate any legitimate protection. Likewise, if fraud has been committed by Trump or Cohen that is not protected.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:26 AM   #3132
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Self-draining the swamp...

"House Speaker Paul Ryan’s announcement Wednesday that he would not seek re-election adds a big name to what was already shaping up to be a near-record year of seat turnovers in the U.S. House of Representatives. More House members are choosing not to run for re-election to that body than at any time in the past quarter-century – including a record number of Republicans, according to a Pew Research Center analysis."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ction-in-2018/
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:21 PM   #3133
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I think when it is all said and done Trump will wind up being the highest rated president in history, bar none. I don't mean that history will speak favorably of him, only that he will have dominated the ratings game like no other President. As they say, Politics is show business for ugly people.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:57 AM   #3134
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"Decades before he led the F.B.I.’s investigation into whether members of Trump’s campaign colluded with Russia to influence the 2016 election, Comey was a career prosecutor who helped dismantle the Gambino crime family; and he doesn’t hesitate in these pages to draw a direct analogy between the Mafia bosses he helped pack off to prison years ago and the current occupant of the Oval Office."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/b...39ries&ref=cta
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:48 AM   #3135
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"Decades before he led the F.B.I.’s investigation into whether members of Trump’s campaign colluded with Russia to influence the 2016 election, Comey was a career prosecutor who helped dismantle the Gambino crime family; and he doesn’t hesitate in these pages to draw a direct analogy between the Mafia bosses he helped pack off to prison years ago and the current occupant of the Oval Office."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/b...39ries&ref=cta
I appreciate that he has gone and given us his eyewitness testimony to what is happening behind the curtain. I realize by doing so he has opened himself up to being savaged by political operatives. I find it absurd to focus on any mud that is on him as though that somehow disqualifies his account. From what I can gather Trump and his closest allies are caked in mud. If they can talk and tweet then he also should be allowed to respond.

This emphasis of Trump on "Loyalty" is indicative, perhaps the biggest warning sign, of a personality cult leader. I am reminded of Gregor Strasser when he left Hitler's party. He should have warned about the cult influence, instead he left quietly and apologetically, only to be killed in the night of the long knives. From that point on Hitler was demanding loyalty and it was a full blown cult movement.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:38 AM   #3136
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This emphasis of Trump on "Loyalty" is indicative, perhaps the biggest warning sign, of a personality cult leader. I am reminded of Gregor Strasser when he left Hitler's party. He should have warned about the cult influence, instead he left quietly and apologetically, only to be killed in the night of the long knives. From that point on Hitler was demanding loyalty and it was a full blown cult movement.
Bringing up Hitler reminds me of WWII. It doesn't take much to ignite a world war.

Trump is as we speak sending the largest armada of warships to Syria since Bush's invasion of Iraq. Iraq became a war, could we be seeing the same for Syria? Only this time we'll be coming against both Russia and Iran. All actors wielding nukes.

WWIII anyone? Then Spanky-Lying-Pee-Brain will finally be great. He'll be the first in history to start WWIII.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:59 AM   #3137
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This emphasis of Trump on "Loyalty" is indicative, perhaps the biggest warning sign, of a personality cult leader. I am reminded of Gregor Strasser when he left Hitler's party. He should have warned about the cult influence, instead he left quietly and apologetically, only to be killed in the night of the long knives. From that point on Hitler was demanding loyalty and it was a full blown cult movement.
The movement is less about loyalty to a person and more about loyalty to principle. Clearly, our POTUS is a flawed man in many ways but what he has exposed is a very disconcerting ruling class in the US government and in collusion with a media elite that considers him to be a parasite that must be destroyed and discharged. He is a disrupter to the order of things. Those who voted for him did not do it because he is a saint, like Mike Pence is considered by many but precisely because he represents a change from that ruling class in DC.

I think we knew that politicians and media would find little ground to work with or give credit to Trump. He says the sky is blue and his detractors will argue it is red. However, the most alarming thing that I did not grasp until recently is the lengths to which our intelligence apparatus were willing to become complicit in that discrediting mission and to get rid of him. Every time Brennen, Clapper, Comey open their mouths it just confirms what has become apparent. I find that creepy and the one aspect that every American should be alarmed about.

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Old 04-13-2018, 12:19 PM   #3138
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The movement is less about loyalty to a person and more about loyalty to principle.
I would say that this was Gregor Strasser's viewpoint. There were many in the movement that held this thought, but once Strasser was out it was no longer about a principle but about Hitler.

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Clearly, our POTUS is a flawed man in many ways but what he has exposed is a very disconcerting ruling class in the US government and in collusion with a media elite that considers him to be a parasite that must be destroyed and discharged. He is a disrupter to the order of things. Those who voted for him did not do it because he is a saint, like Mike Pence is considered by many but precisely because he represents a change from that ruling class in DC.
Really? This is when you became disconcerted? Not when the Senate shrugged off the Box 13 scandal with LBJ? Not when they covered up the JFK assassination? You weren't bothered when the OPEC was able to drive Carter out and replace him with Reagan and entire cadre of oil men? 911, a false flag attack designed to put our military in charge of the world's oil and gas supply and to force through massive funding to overhaul our military with drones and robots, that didn't bother you!

Saying that "Trump is a flawed man" is the most generous way of putting it. He is a child, he thought he was the big cheese but really he was simply a big fish for a small pond. He is completely and totally out of his depth and is overwhelmed by this job.

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I think we knew that politicians and media would find little ground to work with or give credit to Trump. He says the sky is blue and his detractors will argue it is red. However, the most alarming thing that I did not grasp until recently is the lengths to which our intelligence apparatus were willing to become complicit in that discrediting mission and to get rid of him. Every time Brennen, Clapper, Comey open their mouths it just confirms what has become apparent. I find that creepy and the one aspect that every American should be alarmed about.

Drake
What alarms me is the extent to which supporters of Trump are willing to dismiss the cooler, wiser heads of those who are experts in their field and given their lives to US national security.

38% of Germans voted for Hitler at his best showing, roughly the same for Trump. I don't think this is a knock against Germans, rather I think this shows that those who are suffering the most in the midst of a great depression want change at any price and are willing to "burn down the establishment" to get it.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:00 PM   #3139
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So Evangelicals, including bro Ohio, supported Trump because of abortions, and now Trump paid for an abortion of his love child :

Trump's top Republican fundraiser quits in disgrace after admitting $1.6 MILLION hush money payment to Playboy model for aborting his baby - in deal made by president's attorney Michael Cohen


And Trump signed the NDA with same names he used for Stormy :

Signed agreement was between 'David Dennison' and 'Peggy Peterson' – the same names used for Trump and Stormy Daniels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mp-Stormy.html
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:16 PM   #3140
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So Evangelicals, including bro Ohio, supported Trump because of abortions, and now Trump paid for an abortion of his love child :

Trump's top Republican fundraiser quits in disgrace after admitting $1.6 MILLION hush money payment to Playboy model for aborting his baby - in deal made by president's attorney Michael Cohen


And Trump signed the NDA with same names he used for Stormy :

Signed agreement was between 'David Dennison' and 'Peggy Peterson' – the same names used for Trump and Stormy Daniels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mp-Stormy.html
Wow! He quit in disgrace? I didn't know these guys felt shame. Amazing.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:16 PM   #3141
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I would say that this was Gregor Strasser's viewpoint. There were many in the movement that held this thought, but once Strasser was out it was no longer about a principle but about Hitler.



Really? This is when you became disconcerted? Not when the Senate shrugged off the Box 13 scandal with LBJ? Not when they covered up the JFK assassination? You weren't bothered when the OPEC was able to drive Carter out and replace him with Reagan and entire cadre of oil men? 911, a false flag attack designed to put our military in charge of the world's oil and gas supply and to force through massive funding to overhaul our military with drones and robots, that didn't bother you!

Saying that "Trump is a flawed man" is the most generous way of putting it. He is a child, he thought he was the big cheese but really he was simply a big fish for a small pond. He is completely and totally out of his depth and is overwhelmed by this job.



What alarms me is the extent to which supporters of Trump are willing to dismiss the cooler, wiser heads of those who are experts in their field and given their lives to US national security.

38% of Germans voted for Hitler at his best showing, roughly the same for Trump. I don't think this is a knock against Germans, rather I think this shows that those who are suffering the most in the midst of a great depression want change at any price and are willing to "burn down the establishment" to get it.
How dare Drake wade into the swamp here and introduce another perspective?

Doesn't he know our flawed POTUS is the reincarnation of Hitler?

I find it truly remarkable that someone could view 911 as a false flag, and not connect the dots here and see the deep state coup.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:42 PM   #3142
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How dare Drake wade into the swamp here and introduce another perspective?

Doesn't he know our flawed POTUS is the reincarnation of Hitler?
The term Hitler is extremely controversial because of how twisted and evil his regime became. But they didn't head down that fork in the road until they made the movement a full blown personality cult. I am not comparing Trump to the Hitler that ordered the holocaust. I am comparing him to the man who was a "genius" at propaganda, who was angry at the humiliating loss in WWI, who was essentially an idiot, who didn't care about policy, only grabbing power, and who clearly had serious issues with women and incest.

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I find it truly remarkable that someone could view 911 as a false flag, and not connect the dots here and see the deep state coup.
I see a deep state coup that took place when JFK was assassinated. This also led to Nixon resigning (listen to the Nixon tapes -- he admits he couldn't put the blame on Hunt because of the "whole Bay of Pigs thing"). Nixon installs Ford, the guy from the Warren commission to take over as he leaves.

When I connect the dots I see the oil industry having a huge impact on our foreign policy and White House from the time they removed Carter. Prior to that they began to make major inroads into foreign policy with Halliburton and LBJ and they funded Nixon's campaigns discreetly.

What I am completely incapable of seeing hard as I try is Donald Trump coming to the rescue. What is he going to do, yell "urine trouble!" Should we start calling him Captain underpants? What we need is Teddy Roosevelt. Trump is something we accidentally stepped in and the sooner we scrape it off our shoe the better.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:01 PM   #3143
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The term Hitler is extremely controversial because of how twisted and evil his regime became. But they didn't head down that fork in the road until they made the movement a full blown personality cult. I am not comparing Trump to the Hitler that ordered the holocaust. I am comparing him to the man who was a "genius" at propaganda, who was angry at the humiliating loss in WWI, who was essentially an idiot, who didn't care about policy, only grabbing power, and who clearly had serious issues with women and incest.

I see a deep state coup that took place when JFK was assassinated. This also led to Nixon resigning (listen to the Nixon tapes -- he admits he couldn't put the blame on Hunt because of the "whole Bay of Pigs thing"). Nixon installs Ford, the guy from the Warren commission to take over as he leaves.

When I connect the dots I see the oil industry having a huge impact on our foreign policy and White House from the time they removed Carter. Prior to that they began to make major inroads into foreign policy with Halliburton and LBJ and they funded Nixon's campaigns discreetly.

What I am completely incapable of seeing hard as I try is Donald Trump coming to the rescue. What is he going to do, yell "urine trouble!" Should we start calling him Captain underpants? What we need is Teddy Roosevelt. Trump is something we accidentally stepped in and the sooner we scrape it off our shoe the better.
Even the great and honorable James Comey has declared the Dossier salacious and unverified, but since your reputable NY Times has published it, we now declare it to be historical "fact."

And your comparisons with Hitler are likewise "justified." (At least on Alt-Views where your audience is overwhelming supportive.)

And as if the waters needed further muddying, let's throw Dicky and Teddy in the midst.

But let me be excused while we return to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:27 PM   #3144
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Even the great and honorable James Comey has declared the Dossier salacious and unverified, but since your reputable NY Times has published it, we now declare it to be historical "fact."
It doesn't matter. If there is no there there, then in the end it will be a major campaign issue to get Trump and his allies elected and reelected. They have had Cohen under surveillance for months, if there is nothing there then the FBI raid approved by NY State attorney General will be another big scandal Trump can trumpet.

On the flip side if by some chance there is something criminal on Cohen they have it still won't matter, he won't flip, since he has claimed "he would take a bullet for Trump".

And Trump's pardon of Libby for outing US intelligence officers, that is not a desperate attempt to signal to Manafort to stay strong cause he will pardon him, no that is the supremely confident middle finger to Comey.

Besides, firing Comey is not obstruction of justice, he could even fire Rosenstein and then Mueller. Unfortunately he can't fire the NY DA, which has a copy of whatever they needed to get the warrant on Cohen, nor will he be able to stop that investigation, or take all the information they have.

The good news for Trump is that "he has a different recollection" about what happened than Comey's account. There should be plenty of witnesses and tape recordings to verify that. Trump has them right where he wants them, all he needs to do is pull out the tapes that he and Cohen are so famous for, prove Comey is "lyin", that in turn proves his claim that this is a deep state set up, exposes the FBI, and will really help drain that swamp.

And that is the context of starting the war in Syria.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:00 PM   #3145
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ZNP> And that is the context of starting the war in Syria.

The beast gassed his own people including women and chidren. Do you think UK and France don’t know that too? Or are you suggesting it’s not a worthwhile fight?

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Old 04-13-2018, 07:07 PM   #3146
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ZNP> And that is the context of starting the war in Syria.

The beast gassed his own people including women and chidren. Do you think UK and France don’t know that too? Or are you suggesting it’s not a worthwhile fight?
Why is it our fight? Are we the police of the world? America is not innocent when it comes to chemical warfare. We looked the other way when Saddam gassed the Iranians. We even provided the gas.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:25 PM   #3147
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Why is it our fight? Are we the police of the world? America is not innocent when it comes to chemical warfare. We looked the other way when Saddam gassed the Iranians. We even provided the gas.
I believe it is important for several reasons.

It is our vital national interests to contain conflict.

It is our moral responsibility to reduce the capabilities of despots to commit atrocities. If he will gas his own people he will gas us.

It is in our interests to align with Gods interest concerning Israel.

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Old 04-13-2018, 08:01 PM   #3148
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And that is the context of starting the war in Syria.
Trump has been under attack since the day of his surprise election victory.

Every day in the news has brought new accusations.

Every action which Trump has taken to date could then be construed as a "wag the dog" mission to distract us from these "accusations."

ZNP, perhaps your comments here are just "senior moments." I understand!
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:23 PM   #3149
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It doesn't matter. If there is no there there, then in the end it will be a major campaign issue to get Trump and his allies elected and reelected. They have had Cohen under surveillance for months, if there is nothing there then the FBI raid approved by NY State attorney General will be another big scandal Trump can trumpet.
Either wishful thinking or blissful ignorance.

The first target they took down was General Flynn. Never convicted of a crime. He was charged with lying to the FBI while not even under oath or represented by counsel. It is a process crime, in other words there was no crime until the FBI talked to him. Peter Strzok later reported that Flynn was being forthright and honest. Flynn pled out to save his family. What happened to this former general should scare all of us. (And where was the GoFundMe sympathy to pay his legal bills and loss of pension?)

Then the Muller attack team was launched, looking for a crime to impeach Trump. Forget about the Russian collusion, which was a farce known by all. Since then every person who ever knew Trump was officially "under surveillance" by Muller's team, Melania and Barron included.

I say let Muller impeach Trump. The House will flip in November and Pelosi will lick her chops. All current House investigations into real criminal activity will end. The House will eventually vote to impeach. The Senate, however, which needs 67 votes, will never indict. (Looks like Joe Manchin in WV might not even get reelected.) The whole charade will end like the Starr investigation.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:36 AM   #3150
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ZNP> And that is the context of starting the war in Syria.

The beast gassed his own people including women and chidren. Do you think UK and France don’t know that too? Or are you suggesting it’s not a worthwhile fight?

Drake
No. I am merely stating a fact, the context in which we are getting involved in this conflict is one in which our "leader" is highly compromised.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:38 AM   #3151
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Trump has been under attack since the day of his surprise election victory.

Every day in the news has brought new accusations.

Every action which Trump has taken to date could then be construed as a "wag the dog" mission to distract us from these "accusations."

ZNP, perhaps your comments here are just "senior moments." I understand!
This is why it is a disaster to have someone leading this country with so much extra baggage. I am well aware of the fact that any President will come under political attack for the entire duration of their term. But the attacks on Trump have been multiplied greatly due to his own faults.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:41 AM   #3152
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Either wishful thinking or blissful ignorance.

The first target they took down was General Flynn. Never convicted of a crime. He was charged with lying to the FBI while not even under oath or represented by counsel. It is a process crime, in other words there was no crime until the FBI talked to him. Peter Strzok later reported that Flynn was being forthright and honest. Flynn pled out to save his family. What happened to this former general should scare all of us. (And where was the GoFundMe sympathy to pay his legal bills and loss of pension?)

Then the Muller attack team was launched, looking for a crime to impeach Trump. Forget about the Russian collusion, which was a farce known by all. Since then every person who ever knew Trump was officially "under surveillance" by Muller's team, Melania and Barron included.

I say let Muller impeach Trump. The House will flip in November and Pelosi will lick her chops. All current House investigations into real criminal activity will end. The House will eventually vote to impeach. The Senate, however, which needs 67 votes, will never indict. (Looks like Joe Manchin in WV might not even get reelected.) The whole charade will end like the Starr investigation.
I will gather a pile of stones in the event your prophecy is not fulfilled.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:49 AM   #3153
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I believe it is important for several reasons.

It is our vital national interests to contain conflict.

It is our moral responsibility to reduce the capabilities of despots to commit atrocities. If he will gas his own people he will gas us.

It is in our interests to align with Gods interest concerning Israel.

Drake
Can we all just stop the charade. We are not fighting this war to contain conflict, or because of atrocities, or because of a concern to bless Israel. We are fighting because this is where the oil is (also natural gas). 911 was simply an excuse to put our military there. Prior to that Bush (Sr) suckered Saddam into invading Kuwait as an excuse to put our military there (no way Saudi Arabia would have backed us if they didn't feel extremely threatened). Russia is not there as some kind of anti Israel atheist motivated war, but simply to protect their vital interests regarding the oil. China is making inroads with the broad coalition of Islamic states for the exact same reason. Europe is there for the same reason. State sponsored terrorism is there to fight against these superpowers who they see as usurping and pillaging their land. Oil transformed the US from an agricultural economy to a superpower. Why hasn't it done the same for the Middle East? Because we don't want them to use their oil, we want them to export it to us.

For those who take issue with this position can you answer a very simple question. These smart missiles cost approx $1.5 million each. They shot over 100, so the missiles alone cost $150 million. That is simply the tip of the iceberg when you look at the cost of planning, surveillance, sending in the ships, etc. So this little strike certainly cost over $1 billion when everything is taken into account. So my question is how much money is being spent on helping the people? We are spending billions killing them because of their inhumane treatment, yet at the same time we are strengthening our wall to make sure the refugees don't come here. So can you explain how this fits in the context of "our moral obligation"?
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:50 AM   #3154
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This is why it is a disaster to have someone leading this country with so much extra baggage. I am well aware of the fact that any President will come under political attack for the entire duration of their term. But the attacks on Trump have been multiplied greatly due to his own faults.
No, this is why a fair and honest Press is so crucial to our republic.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:55 AM   #3155
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We are spending billions killing them because of their inhumane treatment, yet at the same time we are strengthening our wall to make sure the refugees don't come here. So can you explain how this fits in the context of "our moral obligation"?
Trump Derangement Syndrome explains everything.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:31 AM   #3156
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I will gather a pile of stones in the event your prophecy is not fulfilled.
I thought you liberals held the exclusive rights to tolerance and moral obligations?
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:53 AM   #3157
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Can we all just stop the charade. We are not fighting this war to contain conflict, or because of atrocities, or because of a concern to bless Israel. We are fighting because this is where the oil is (also natural gas)...........State sponsored terrorism is there to fight against these superpowers who they see as usurping and pillaging their land. Oil transformed the US from an agricultural economy to a superpower. Why hasn't it done the same for the Middle East? Because we don't want them to use their oil, we want them to export it to us.
ZNP,

Your arguments do not align with the facts. Syria does not contribute significantly to the world supply of oil or gas.... oil from Syria contributes one half of one percent to the world supply. A big deal to Syria but not to the rest of the world. Syria ranks 53rd in natural gas production lagging behind notable superpowers such as East Timor, Madagascar, and Equatorial Guinea! Second if oil was the primary enabler of becoming a super power then big oil producers like Saudi Arabia would have become a super power a long time ago. They haven’t. Neither has UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Venezuela, so oil may be a factor but it is not the primary reason superpowers gain their powers. A superpower is one because they can project power. I agree that a bunch of energy is needed in a superpower economy but what is happening in Syria is not related to energy.

Which brings me to the point bolded above. State sponsored terrorism as an explanation for gassing one owns people is an incoherent strategy for ridding intruders. Especially one that just announced they (the intruders) were leaving! There are different reasons for a state sponsoring terrorism but they all appear to be offensive in nature not defensive, that is they want to strengthen their power, expand it, or advance their ideology. The notion that a state sponsors terrorism against its own people or other people so that they can go back to living a life in peace is also irrational. That would be akin to playing checkers.... rather the game being played is chess.

A biblical explanation is the most compatible with all the facts and with biblical prophecy which is why Israel invariably shows up in the discussion. There is a spiritual battle taking place as shown in Daniel. Much of Islam awaits the hidden imam, the final Mahdi, the one who will bring peace in the Occulation which aligns very well with our understanding of Antichrist and all his doings. Iran, a major state sponsor of terrorism, has no intruders on its land and will always respond to opposition to its aggression with something like “ we will eliminate Israel in 8 minutes” thereby showing the true objective of their going ons. All the conflicts, particularly in and around the Levant, are so that God can gain remaining fruit from Israel at His return according to Zechariah 12:10, Dan 7:13, and Revelation 1:7.

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Old 04-14-2018, 07:57 AM   #3158
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I believe it is important for several reasons.

It is our vital national interests to contain conflict.

It is our moral responsibility to reduce the capabilities of despots to commit atrocities. If he will gas his own people he will gas us.

It is in our interests to align with Gods interest concerning Israel.
The last line, I believe, encapsulates all your points : God can't end the world (and gas everyone) without Israel (and the temple) ; God's favorite people are still the Jews, even if most of them have no blood ties to Abraham and the Torah.

As I see it, Israel and the temple are idols ... and the Jews as God's chosen is ancestry worship ; originating in ancient pagan rites, plain and simple.

But yes, it's in the Bible ... that's become another idol.

And I wonder, and have even asked, why so many people run to cults. We certainly can't look to them for the answer.

And certainly not to the "Mission Accomplished" Trump.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:45 AM   #3159
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But yes, it's in the Bible ... that's become another idol.

Awareness,

In a world view where everything is an idol I will gladly choose the Bible over the idols of human philosophy, atheism, paganism, etc.

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Old 04-14-2018, 09:52 AM   #3160
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Awareness,

In a world view where everything is an idol I will gladly choose the Bible over the idols of human philosophy, atheism, paganism, etc.
And I'll take science over superstition any day of the week.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:11 AM   #3161
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And I'll take science over superstition any day of the week.
That is a false choice. Of course, who would disagree with that?

What you mean is that you accept the findings of science as presented vs. the record in the Bible.

Yet, specifically, what science are you referring to vs. what the Bible reveals?

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Old 04-14-2018, 10:13 AM   #3162
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And I'll take science over superstition any day of the week.
Evolution is the greatest scientific superstitious hoax ever thrust upon mankind.

Perhaps you might still keep Sunday for the Bible, and the other six days for your "science?"
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:16 AM   #3163
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Awareness,

In a world view where everything is an idol I will gladly choose the Bible over the idols of human philosophy, atheism, paganism, etc.

Drake
Have you forgotten the idols of science and the internet???
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:27 AM   #3164
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Let's leave the idols, and get back to politics. Comey style.

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But let’s get back to Comey’s claims that Trump operates like a mafia boss. According to experts from Comey’s book and interviews with the former director he compares his experience with Trump to that of the actions of a mob boss. Those apparently are his feelings regarding the few meetings and phone calls he had with the president.

But the investigations into alleged collusion between the Trump campaign with Russia have not delivered. There is still no evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians and witnesses, for the most part, have been cooperating with Congress and Robert Mueller’s Office of Special Counsel.

It wasn’t so with the Clinton investigation. Former FBI Director Louis Freeh likened the Clinton campaign and failure of witnesses to respond to congressional inquiries to the mafia during a 1997 hearing on the matter.

In fact, by the time the congressional hearings had concluded roughly 120 people connected to the Clinton campaign had either fled the country or invoked the 5th Amendment to avoid answering questions.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:31 AM   #3165
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Evolution is the greatest scientific superstitious hoax ever thrust upon mankind.

Perhaps you might still keep Sunday for the Bible, and the other six days for your "science?"
Oh my.

Is the science that awareness places his faith in and refers to ..... evolution?

A provocateur usually presents a more complex challenge.

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Old 04-14-2018, 10:38 AM   #3166
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Have you forgotten the idols of science and the internet???
I don’t usually think of science as an idol but rather an explanation of how things work. Yet, I suppose someone could worship at that altar but that would be an act of ignorance because there is no contradiction between real science and the Bible. The theory of Evolution is a theory.

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Old 04-14-2018, 11:12 AM   #3167
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Oh my.

Is the science that awareness places his faith in and refers to ..... evolution?

A provocateur usually presents a more complex challenge.

Drake
awareness tends to view Christians across all time and space thru the eyes of Roman Catholic "flat earth" theologians in the dark ages.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:14 AM   #3168
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I don’t usually think of science as an idol but rather an explanation of how things work. Yet, I suppose someone could worship at that altar but that would be an act of ignorance because there is no contradiction between real science and the Bible. The theory of Evolution is a theory.

Drake
Theory no more! Proven fact, evolution is!

And science has become a god we can all trust.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:47 AM   #3169
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ZNP,

Your arguments do not align with the facts. Syria does not contribute significantly to the world supply of oil or gas.... oil from Syria contributes one half of one percent to the world supply. A big deal to Syria but not to the rest of the world. Syria ranks 53rd in natural gas production lagging behind notable superpowers such as East Timor, Madagascar, and Equatorial Guinea! Second if oil was the primary enabler of becoming a super power then big oil producers like Saudi Arabia would have become a super power a long time ago. They haven’t. Neither has UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Venezuela, so oil may be a factor but it is not the primary reason superpowers gain their powers. A superpower is one because they can project power. I agree that a bunch of energy is needed in a superpower economy but what is happening in Syria is not related to energy.
3 words: Charlie Wilson's War. What percent of the world's oil market does Afghanistan contribute? In 1981 I was working for an oil company in Houston. All of the executives were called to Washington for an emergency meeting with Carter. They then returned and I was in a meeting of geologists where we were told that the Whitehouse expected Russia to defeat Afghanistan and then they would have an open door to roll into the Middle East with tanks, etc. At the time we were unable to respond had they done so. Every oil company in the country was preparing for the price of oil to double and to bring currently uneconomic wells on line.

However, "Afghanistan" did defeat Russia. The reality was that the US was fighting that war and it was the US and US technology that defeated Russia. Why was Russia invading Afghanistan? They wanted the oil in the Middle East, not the oil in Afghanistan.

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Which brings me to the point bolded above. State sponsored terrorism as an explanation for gassing one owns people is an incoherent strategy for ridding intruders. Especially one that just announced they (the intruders) were leaving! There are different reasons for a state sponsoring terrorism but they all appear to be offensive in nature not defensive, that is they want to strengthen their power, expand it, or advance their ideology. The notion that a state sponsors terrorism against its own people or other people so that they can go back to living a life in peace is also irrational. That would be akin to playing checkers.... rather the game being played is chess.
One of the key leaders in the Afghanistan resistance was Osama Bin Laden. The CIA sold him on repelling the infidel invaders to his country. But once Russia was defeated we cut him off. He realized he had been played, and like the old saying "hell hath no fury like a Muslim Holy Warrior who has been scorned", well that is how Al Qaeda came to be. Osama played up the "David vs Goliath" victory against Russia as though that was his victory and not the US.

But ISIS is different. They are funded by the "State". Surely not Syria a regime on the verge of collapse, nor by Iran. Instead Russia, through its puppets of Syria and Iran. Do you think after what we did to them in Afghanistan they are going to let us just walk in and take over the oil fields in Iraq?

Iran is Russia's close ally. However, Israel is capable of bombing targets in Iran (remember the nuclear reactor in Iraq they bombed). Having a presence in Syria allows Russia to better defend Iran and supply ISIS.

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A biblical explanation is the most compatible with all the facts and with biblical prophecy which is why Israel invariably shows up in the discussion. There is a spiritual battle taking place as shown in Daniel. Much of Islam awaits the hidden imam, the final Mahdi, the one who will bring peace in the Occulation which aligns very well with our understanding of Antichrist and all his doings. Iran, a major state sponsor of terrorism, has no intruders on its land and will always respond to opposition to its aggression with something like “ we will eliminate Israel in 8 minutes” thereby showing the true objective of their going ons. All the conflicts, particularly in and around the Levant, are so that God can gain remaining fruit from Israel at His return according to Zechariah 12:10, Dan 7:13, and Revelation 1:7.

Drake
Fine, the boundaries of Israel, as stated in the book of Deuteronomy is the Mediterranean to the West, Lebanon to the North and the Tigris Euphrates to the East. That means they were given the entire Arab Peninsula. The only time they could have actually occupied that area was during the time of Solomon. The most striking thing about the reign of Solomon from a historical perspective are the "mines of Solomon". He was running an industrial scale mining operation, with very large smelting and shipping. In some places to make it easier for carts of ore to be moved they laid rails in the ground. The big problem with mining is flooding and you have to continually pump water out. Whether the pump is powered by animals or steam it is essentially the same. It was the need to make steam powered water pumps for mines that ultimately brought in the industrial revolution. The problem is not the idea, we have found little steam powered toys from this period in Greece. The problem is that to build a steam engine requires metal working, machinery and a large organization beyond the scope of an individual. In other words it was right in Solomon's strength. Solomon had the mines, he had the need to use steam power, he was swimming in oil, and his well run government organization was legendary. They had to know that oil was flammable, when they pitched Noah's ark they used pitch, they have to heat it up, no doubt they saw it burn at some point. So, had Solomon not been distracted with his 100 wives, had he not gone to Egypt for horses (which he was strictly forbidden from doing in the Bible) had he not gone to Lebanon for timber (again in violation of God's word) he could have brought about the industrial revolution. An engine that pumps a piston for pumping water can also pump a piston to move a train. Over the next 400 years they could have had trains, concrete and steel frame buildings, roads, cars, etc. When the Babylonians finally show up they would have come crawling on their knees. No Babylonian empire, no Meso-Persian empire, No Greek Empire and no Roman empire. Without the wars Israel would have truly been the city of peace set on a hill. That is also part of the Biblical prophecy.

But, due to sin and disobedience we have taken a different path. Israel, does not have any oil reserves, instead, they are the beachhead for the US and European presence in the Middle East. Oh yeah, another prophecy, Antichrist, Prince of Greece, will set himself up on the throne in Israel.

I did not say that Islamic holy warriors motivation was oil, nor did I say that Jewish return to Israel was motivated by oil. What I said was that the US, Europe, Russia, and China's motivation is oil. That is what will bring the four corners of the Earth to Armageddon. That is why the "four corners of the Earth are bound up at the Tigris Euphrates" -- another Biblical prophecy.

Going back to the key point, Syria claims to have shot down some of our smart bombs. Do you think that could possibly be the result of Syrian technology or isn't it much more likely the result of Russian technology, payback for stinger missiles shooting down their helicopters in Afghanistan.

Also, why is Russia pumping billions into Syria to fight against the US which is pumping billions to fight Syria? Why not just give millions in humanitarian aid and not fight at all? Surely they aren't fighting over control of Syria.

Also, why does Trump warn Russia a few days ahead of time unless it was to prevent this strike from turning into WWIII with Russia.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:51 AM   #3170
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Evolution is the greatest scientific superstitious hoax ever thrust upon mankind.

Perhaps you might still keep Sunday for the Bible, and the other six days for your "science?"
If you wipe up the dirt on the floor and look at it under a microscope you will see millions of little organisms, bacteria, etc. According to the theory of evolution those little critters evolved into man.

Are you saying that it is a hoax to say that man is formed from the dust of the ground?
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:38 PM   #3171
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Have you forgotten the idols of science and the internet???
Where's their churches? I'd like to check them out, and attend their meetings. And do they have Bibles? Maybe I should read them first.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:46 PM   #3172
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Theory no more! Proven fact, evolution is!

And science has become a god we can all trust.
At least scientists are trying to prove themselves wrong, and are glad when they find it. Unlike the religious, who think they are always right, and maybe admit wrong, long, long, after it's been undeniably proven.

And you are right. Evolution is a fact. Ask your exterminator.
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:42 PM   #3173
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Where's their churches? I'd like to check them out, and attend their meetings. And do they have Bibles? Maybe I should read them first.
You are in "church" right now.

Their high priests are guys like zuckerberg, jobs, and gates.

Their bibles are atheism and new age theology.
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:55 PM   #3174
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One of the key leaders in the Afghanistan resistance was Osama Bin Laden. The CIA sold him on repelling the infidel invaders to his country. But once Russia was defeated we cut him off. He realized he had been played, and like the old saying "hell hath no fury like a Muslim Holy Warrior who has been scorned", well that is how Al Qaeda came to be. Osama played up the "David vs Goliath" victory against Russia as though that was his victory and not the US.
Did you ever think that Osama Bin Hiding just liked to blow things up?

Both sides of the cold war employed guys like this.
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Old 04-14-2018, 07:48 PM   #3175
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You are in "church" right now.

Their high priests are guys like zuckerberg, jobs, and gates.

Their bibles are atheism and new age theology.
So their church is the world, and their Bibles are all the books and the internet? And Amazon is their intermediary to their high God Darwin?
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:42 AM   #3176
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ZNP>”Also, why is Russia pumping billions into Syria to fight against the US which is pumping billions to fight Syria? Why not just give millions in humanitarian aid and not fight at all? Surely they aren't fighting over control of Syria.”

ZNP,

Russia invaded Afghanistan to prop up a communist government facing insurgency. USA always at the ready to check Soviet expansion supplied arms to “freedom fighters” with an agenda of their own that consider both Russians and Americans as infidels. Of course controlling energy natural resources is an interest for all involved.

But that is not why the US, UK, and France bombed Assad’s chemical producing capabilities this weekend. They did it because he gassed his own people, including women and children, in a most horrendous way. He violated international law in place for a hundred years, showed himself to be a liar and deceiver concerning his commitment to rid his supply of those gasses and to never use them again, and revealed the true beast that he is. Syria has no oil, no natural gas, to speak of and we had just announced our intention to withdraw all combat forces from the country soon. Your Charlie War is not applicable when it comes to Syria... it is not about oil from the USA perspective. It is about taking decisive action and containing atrocious behavior, sending a message to the others who think like Assad, and a clear message that crossing lines, whether they have been explicitly drawn or not, will not be tolerated by this administration. There’s a new sheriff in town. These people do not respect humanitarian aid, peace negotiations, or the ideas in Lennon’s Imagine. They understand and respect force. Assad tested the international community’s resolve, miscalculated, and lost.

The raging battle is not the one we see on the surface. It is the spiritual one that is not so apparent. Israel is the object of that battle.

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Old 04-15-2018, 10:43 AM   #3177
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But that is not why the US, UK, and France bombed Assad’s chemical producing capabilities this weekend. They did it because he gassed his own people, including women and children, in a most horrendous way. He violated international law in place for a hundred years, showed himself to be a liar and deceiver concerning his commitment to rid his supply of those gasses and to never use them again, and revealed the true beast that he is. Syria has no oil, no natural gas, to speak of and we had just announced our intention to withdraw all combat forces from the country soon. Your Charlie War is not applicable when it comes to Syria... it is not about oil from the USA perspective. It is about taking decisive action and containing atrocious behavior, sending a message to the others who think like Assad, and a clear message that crossing lines, whether they have been explicitly drawn or not, will not be tolerated by this administration. There’s a new sheriff in town. These people do not respect humanitarian aid, peace negotiations, or the ideas in Lennon’s Imagine. They understand and respect force. Assad tested the international community’s resolve, miscalculated, and lost.

The raging battle is not the one we see on the surface. It is the spiritual one that is not so apparent. Israel is the object of that battle.

Drake
That is certainly a reasonable viewpoint based on the way the US and others have presented what is happening to the US public. I thought the Trump supporters were clever enough to see fake news for what it is.

But it doesn't answer a number of troubling questions.

1. The crisis in Syria is due to climate change, they have been hit especially hard. This is what prompted the refugee crisis where Europe was virtually swamped. This is why they blame Assad and he is incapable of doing anything but bombing and gassing his own people in his pathetic attempt to hold onto power. If the West (US and Europe) took these refugees it would cost us 1/10th the price of the fighting, it would solve the problem, and it would be far more humanitarian than leaving these people to die in Syria. So explain to me why the US chooses to spend ten times more while at the same time spending much more on building a wall to keep out the projected flood of refugees while all the time denying and whitewashing govt reports about Climate change?

2. You still haven't explained why Russia is there arm in arm with Assad? If they aren't there to influence the middle East and protect their valuable ally Iran why are they there?

3. Assad is holding onto power by a thread. Yet the West (Europe and the US) is very clear that they do not want to remove him from power even though his behavior has been atrocious and not just two gas attacks. The list is far longer than that. Why do we want to keep a monster in power?

4. Clear message? Are you talking about Trump's tweet days before the smart bombs were sent making sure that no significant damage was done?

The clear message is don't do anything that will expose this charade for what it is, a charade, otherwise we are forced to slap your wrist with a wet noodle. Wake up this "strike" was clearly preceded with a 48 hour warning giving them plenty of time to move their equipment and people. It was pure theater for the American public. There is no intent to deal with Assad, there is no intent to help the humanitarian crisis. It is a classic example of following the letter of the law but not the spirit.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:09 PM   #3178
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That is certainly a reasonable viewpoint based on the way the US and others have presented what is happening to the US public. I thought the Trump supporters were clever enough to see fake news for what it is. But it doesn't answer a number of troubling questions.

1. The crisis in Syria is due to climate change, they have been hit especially hard. This is what prompted the refugee crisis where Europe was virtually swamped. This is why they blame Assad and he is incapable of doing anything but bombing and gassing his own people in his pathetic attempt to hold onto power. If the West (US and Europe) took these refugees it would cost us 1/10th the price of the fighting, it would solve the problem, and it would be far more humanitarian than leaving these people to die in Syria. So explain to me why the US chooses to spend ten times more while at the same time spending much more on building a wall to keep out the projected flood of refugees while all the time denying and whitewashing govt reports about Climate change?
Climate change? Is that how we now explain the actions of totalitarian monsters who kill their own people? The weather may be nasty tomorrow, I think I'll find someone to murder! Taking these refugees is cheap? Explain to me the cost of 911 and other terrorist plots in the US, UK, and France? Walls are cheap! Take a look at how border towns like Tucson have been destroyed.

2. You still haven't explained why Russia is there arm in arm with Assad? If they aren't there to influence the middle East and protect their valuable ally Iran why are they there?
Russia gets a satellite. (They have been known to do this before, would you like me to name a few places?) Syria gives them a warm weather port on the Mediterranean. And btw, take a look at some of the Bible prophecies about Israel's enemies from the "north."

3. Assad is holding onto power by a thread. Yet the West (Europe and the US) is very clear that they do not want to remove him from power even though his behavior has been atrocious and not just two gas attacks. The list is far longer than that. Why do we want to keep a monster in power?
Because we have learned that the alternative to Assad can be worse. Libya and Iraq proved that.

4. Clear message? Are you talking about Trump's tweet days before the smart bombs were sent making sure that no significant damage was done?
Messages are only as clear as the receiving party hears them. When Obama, Rice, and Kerry told us 5 years ago that all chemical WMD's were removed thru "brilliant diplomacy, doing what no missiles could accomplish" the liberal press heard that message and believed it. You did too?

The clear message is don't do anything that will expose this charade for what it is, a charade, otherwise we are forced to slap your wrist with a wet noodle. Wake up this "strike" was clearly preceded with a 48 hour warning giving them plenty of time to move their equipment and people. It was pure theater for the American public. There is no intent to deal with Assad, there is no intent to help the humanitarian crisis. It is a classic example of following the letter of the law but not the spirit.
Wish your boy Obama would have at least used a "wet noodle." He did nothing but lie to us.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:57 PM   #3179
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[COLOR=Blue]Climate change? Is that how we now explain the actions of totalitarian monsters who kill their own people? The weather may be nasty tomorrow, I think I'll find someone to murder!
Read the Good Earth by Pearl Buck and you will get a clear look at what Climate Change can do when there are millions of climate refugees who can't feed themselves.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:03 PM   #3180
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-1

I agree with Ohios points and would add these additional points.

“....there is no consensus within the growing field of climate-conflict studies on whether violence and civil conflict are in any way related to climatic variables.”

Full article here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...62629816301822

I think it was admirable that Trump telegraphed the attack to mimimize loss of life. Assad could not move buildings and infrastructure so his chemical making capabilities are now greatly diminished. It was a precision strike. Killing people would not have made a difference and killing Russians might have made a big difference.

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Old 04-15-2018, 05:08 PM   #3181
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Read the Good Earth by Pearl Buck and you will get a clear look at what Climate Change can do when there are millions of climate refugees who can't feed themselves.
They were not climate change refugees. Assad blew up their homes, jobs, and cities.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:12 PM   #3182
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-1

I agree with Ohios points and would add these additional points.

“....there is no consensus within the growing field of climate-conflict studies on whether violence and civil conflict are in any way related to climatic variables.”

Full article here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...62629816301822

I think it was admirable that Trump telegraphed the attack to mimimize loss of life. Assad could not move buildings and infrastructure so his chemical making capabilities are now greatly diminished. It was a precision strike. Killing people would not have made a difference and killing Russians might have made a big difference.

Drake
Soon these pseudo-scientists will be accusing Trump of mass murder for shutting down the Paris Climate treaty.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:23 PM   #3183
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Where is the proof of a chemical attack?
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:47 PM   #3184
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-1

I agree with Ohios points and would add these additional points.

“....there is no consensus within the growing field of climate-conflict studies on whether violence and civil conflict are in any way related to climatic variables.”

Full article here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...62629816301822

I think it was admirable that Trump telegraphed the attack to mimimize loss of life. Assad could not move buildings and infrastructure so his chemical making capabilities are now greatly diminished. It was a precision strike. Killing people would not have made a difference and killing Russians might have made a big difference.

Drake
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...refugee-crisis
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:50 PM   #3185
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-1

I agree with Ohios points and would add these additional points.

“....there is no consensus within the growing field of climate-conflict studies on whether violence and civil conflict are in any way related to climatic variables.”

Full article here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...62629816301822

I think it was admirable that Trump telegraphed the attack to mimimize loss of life. Assad could not move buildings and infrastructure so his chemical making capabilities are now greatly diminished. It was a precision strike. Killing people would not have made a difference and killing Russians might have made a big difference.

Drake
Tens of millions of people will be forced from their homes by climate change in the next decade, creating the biggest refugee crisis the world has ever seen, according to a new report.https://www.theguardian.com/environm...refugee-crisis

Scientists have for years cited extreme weather events connected to climate change as a contributing factor in the ongoing European migrant crisis. Drought and crop failure have destroyed livelihoods and driven sectarian conflict, leading to mass migration from the Middle East and Northern Africa to Europe.

The problem is about to get much worse, according to a new study in the journal Science. Researchers behind the study evaluated asylum applications submitted to the European Union from migrants in more than 100 countries between 2000 and 2014, and found a link between dramatic temperature fluctuations and migration.

As temperatures rise, researchers say unchecked climate change could drive a 188% increase in the number of refugees seeking asylum in Europe annually by the end of the century, as migrants seek to escape temperature extremes that might disrupt livelihoods and aggravate some of the world’s thorniest geopolitical conflicts. (http://time.com/5076003/climate-change-migration-trump/)

A major contributor to the Syrian conflict? Climate change
Starting in 2006, Syria suffered its worst drought in 900 years; it ruined farms, forced as many as 1.5 million rural denizens to crowd into cities alongside Iraqi refugees and decimated the country’s livestock. Water became scarce and food expensive. The suffering and social chaos caused by the drought were important drivers of the initial unrest. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...climate-change
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:54 PM   #3186
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ZNP

The Syria Civil War was precipitated by the Arab Spring. People are displaced in wars because they move out of conflict zones to keep from getting killed. Half of those displaced in Syria moved to another part of Syria so they are not displaced by climate change but by the conflict.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

That part of the Levant has never been a bread basket, rather its a desert climate, and once food supply lines are disrupted the refugees seek food wherever they can such as neighboring Turkey. People need to eat.

You are predisposed to climate change as a cause and there are plenty of people who hold that view so you will find support for it online. There are also people who believe UFOs are involved in the conflict in Syria. In other words, you can find support for almost any belief. Then how does one decide the most probable explanation? I think Occams Razor is best applied to this situation..... the simplest explanation is that people moved out of the way of bullets, machetes, bombs, rape, slavery, drowning cages, etc...seeking food, clean water, shelter... not fleeing the effects of climate change. In other words, even if every family in Syria had a unlimited supply of chickpea hummus on their tables they would still be fleeing for their lives.

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Old 04-16-2018, 04:40 AM   #3187
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I think Occams Razor is best applied to this situation..... the simplest explanation is that people moved out of the way of bullets, machetes, bombs, rape, slavery, drowning cages, etc...seeking food, clean water, shelter... not fleeing the effects of climate change. In other words, even if every family in Syria had a unlimited supply of chickpea hummus on their tables they would still be fleeing for their lives.

Drake
I agree with the principle that the simplest explanation makes sense.

There would not have been any bullets, bombs, or "mother of all wars" had the US and Europe been self sufficient in energy.

But instead we have chosen a policy of developing the Middle East oil supply as part of US national policy. We have spent trillions of dollars on the various Gulf wars and "war on Terror". Had those trillions of dollars been spent on research, development and manufacture of renewable energy we would now be the undisputed leader in this major field, we would be self sufficient in energy, and probably half of the motivation for war in the Middle
East would not have been there.

The other half is a consequence of our burning that fossil fuel, also would have been mitigated by a policy of energy self sufficiency. This is the policy that Carter was pushing when he was president. However, a phony oil crisis was manufactured by shutting down a few refineries, this in turn pushed Carter out and replaced him with Reagan and the oil men. And, from that point on we have been fully committed to the "petro dollar". Our current situation is not due to Obama or Trump, it is due to that scheme in the late 70s (some say Kissinger was the architect).
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:44 AM   #3188
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