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Old 07-26-2020, 12:17 PM   #1
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Concerning Christianity in general and the LC in particular, as this is a web site to discuss WL, WN and the LC, LSM, FFT, and all else related to this enigma, I find it fascinating that the whole question of trinity, and the person of Jesus Christ comes up quite often, and always seems to result in a standoff. I would say that the main feature of WL/LSM, after establishing a necessity for the LC, is to fill it with a theological viewpoint that what is missing from Christianity is an experiential understanding of what WL called the processed triune god. Unless one accepted this view, it would be very, very difficult to maintain existence in an LC. In fact, I would say that anyone speaking anything but this viewpoint would either be so marginalized to the point of leaving, or would be called divisive and forced out. Among those who left, few seem to hold to the “ processed “ part, and the triune part and the nature of the person of Christ Jesus seems to be unsettled.

Those who feel strongly that Jesus is God, or God in some fashion mainly quote the gospel of John, and with that, only a few select verses. It should be noted that the foundational church did not have the gospel of John, and there is no scriptural track record for the work John may have been doing at the time, other than he was with Peter in the beginning of Acts. Our famous Thomas, who has a one line quote that seems to cinch in the mind of the Jesus is God crowd that this is the NT in it’s fInest moment. Yet, we have no follow up in the book of Acts that anyone who may have been present took this great revelation of Thomas as something that needed to be preached or taught. Even in John’s writings it does not seem to be the end all of our faith.

One has to think that if the early church was going around speaking of Jesus as God, that there would have been such an outcry that Luke in his gospel given to assure us of our faith, and his work of Acts, would have recorded this Jesus is God thing as being taught and defended, and a whole lot of Christians being killed because of it. Indeed, Stephen is stoned to death, an event probably witnessed by Paul, because he said he saw a vision of the Son of man standing on the right hand of God- something that is taught and preached and expanded throughout the NT. So where is Thomas’ great revelation spoken of in the NT. There would have had to be such an upheaval because this would have contradicted the entire Jewish mindset. It would have to have such a strong beginning and a strong defense, yet there is no gospel spoken in Acts to bring this out.

John is certainly an interesting writer- he introduces a gospel that differs considerably from the other three, he has an epistle that still has people scratching their head about sin and the believer, and of course, he writes the Revelation- a book that so many try to interpret and expound, and a book so many Christians avoid for fear of adding or subtracting from it.
It doesn’t seem to me that the early church, as recorded in Acts, was influenced by John. John doesn’t seem to refer to the church in the same manner as Paul in his epistles. But then, in Revelation, all of the sudden he introduces the 7 churches, which correspond to 7 cities. It seems there is a lot of problems in 5 of the churches related to various teachings. But, there is one church that stands out plainly as doing a praiseworthy work, that one in Philadelphia. To this church, Jesus praises for keeping his word. And look, he says he will cause some false ones to come and worship before the feet of the believers there in Philadelphia.
Jesus, in this speaking, says that as a reward he will “make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.”

Here is my curiosity; among my brethren who hold Jesus as God, what do you do with this that Jesus is saying? Here is the resurrected Christ speaking of his God and plainly speaking of it to those who keep his word. The strangest thing to me, is that John, who seems to be the kingpin of the Jesus is God persuasion writing about believers being rewarded with the things of his God. It should be noted that in all 7 writings to the 7 churches, Jesus never refers to himself as God, but particularly here to Philadelphia, I can’t help but appreciate Jesus speaking of his God.

So, maybe, some of the Jesus is God brethren would like to share their understanding and appreciation. I seem to recall one posting here about when we appear before Jesus, we will see....is there any consideration in light of these verses that we will see but a resurrected, glorified man, who is Christ our Lord? But specifically, how do you all relate to these rewards Jesus offers to the overcomers; I’m really interested to hear your perspectives.
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Old 07-26-2020, 12:57 PM   #2
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One has to think that if the early church was going around speaking of Jesus as God, that there would have been such an outcry that Luke in his gospel given to assure us of our faith, and his work of Acts, would have recorded this Jesus is God thing as being taught and defended, and a whole lot of Christians being killed because of it.
Part of the problem of recreating the conversation between Christians (many who were Jews) and non-Jesus Jews who rejected the resurrected-Christ story is this: the Jewish nation was effaced, practically speaking, a few short decades after Christ's death. So we don't know what was said, and the silence may not be indicative of Christian's lack of preaching.

Second, the Jews were famous for not acknowledging anything they didn't agree with. Josephus, for example, is a famous and widely attested early Jewish witness. But to read the Rabbis, he never existed. Why? He was a traitor to the 'minim'. So he was wiped from the record.

Third, one may in fact see some reaction to the "Jesus as God" assertions in the early rabbinic reports. There is a well-done scholarly work called "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan Segal which covers this. (and note that there are not "Three Powers in Heaven" as yet - the "Holy Spirit as God" is not yet an issue, apparently).

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But then, in Revelation, all of the sudden he introduces the 7 churches, which correspond to 7 cities. It seems there is a lot of problems in 5 of the churches related to various teachings. But, there is one church that stands out plainly as doing a praiseworthy work, that one in Philadelphia. To this church, Jesus praises for keeping his word. And look, he says he will cause some false ones to come and worship before the feet of the believers there in Philadelphia..
An interesting point - if the non-Jesus Jews will come to worship at the feet of Jesus' believers, what does that say about Thomas falling down and worshipping at the feet of the resurrected Jesus?
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Old 07-26-2020, 06:13 PM   #3
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Part of the problem of recreating the conversation between Christians (many who were Jews) and non-Jesus Jews who rejected the resurrected-Christ story is this: the Jewish nation was effaced, practically speaking, a few short decades after Christ's death. So we don't know what was said, and the silence may not be indicative of Christian's lack of preaching.

Second, the Jews were famous for not acknowledging anything they didn't agree with. Josephus, for example, is a famous and widely attested early Jewish witness. But to read the Rabbis, he never existed. Why? He was a traitor to the 'minim'. So he was wiped from the record.

Third, one may in fact see some reaction to the "Jesus as God" assertions in the early rabbinic reports. There is a well-done scholarly work called "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan Segal which covers this. (and note that there are not "Three Powers in Heaven" as yet - the "Holy Spirit as God" is not yet an issue, apparently).

An interesting point - if the non-Jesus Jews will come to worship at the feet of Jesus' believers, what does that say about Thomas falling down and worshipping at the feet of the resurrected Jesus?
Goodness Aron, Two Powers in Heaven sounds like my kind of book, but it isn't cheap. I'm a fan of Larry Hurtado. He was a friend of Segal, and he's trilled that Two Powers in Heaven is back. He considers Segal's book "the most significant books for the study of Christian origins of the last 40 years." And Hurtado was no slouch. Seems Hurtado, Segal, and Bart Ehrman were close ; three top-notched early Christian scholars.

Now I'm going to have to decide if I'm going to cut loose of the money.

Thanks for bringing it up.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:00 AM   #4
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Part of the problem of recreating the conversation between Christians (many who were Jews) and non-Jesus Jews who rejected the resurrected-Christ story is this: the Jewish nation was effaced, practically speaking, a few short decades after Christ's death. So we don't know what was said, and the silence may not be indicative of Christian's lack of preaching.

Second, the Jews were famous for not acknowledging anything they didn't agree with. Josephus, for example, is a famous and widely attested early Jewish witness. But to read the Rabbis, he never existed. Why? He was a traitor to the 'minim'. So he was wiped from the record.

Third, one may in fact see some reaction to the "Jesus as God" assertions in the early rabbinic reports. There is a well-done scholarly work called "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan Segal which covers this. (and note that there are not "Three Powers in Heaven" as yet - the "Holy Spirit as God" is not yet an issue, apparently).

An interesting point - if the non-Jesus Jews will come to worship at the feet of Jesus' believers, what does that say about Thomas falling down and worshipping at the feet of the resurrected Jesus?
With the 3 gospels, the issue among the Jews was whether Jesus was the Christ or not. Somewhat late in Jesusí ministry, Jesus asks his chosen disciples who do men say that I am, then, who do you say that I am. Quite an interesting question to be asking those who were closest to him! Peter gives an answer that Jesus says comes from the Father- that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. All the gospels in Acts present the man, Jesus as the Christ. The Holy Spirit witnesses to this with signs and wonders. No one there is preaching a Jesus is God message.
Myths have a way of growing, and sensationalism sells news. But in Acts, the message of Jesus the Christ is consistent across the various actors and the time element that goes from the ascension through the sending of Paul the prisoner to Rome. The epistles of Paul confirm the gospel preached in Acts. One, for instance, would not read 1,2 Thessalonians and come anywhere near thinking that the message was that Jesus should be viewed, treated as God, and certainly not that God was triune!
My premise is that a recovery of the church would be a recovery of the Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God message, and that the emphasis in the church would be a Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ atmosphere. I would think that God would honor this with pouring out of the Holy Spirit. WL did not bring about such an assembly, in fact, his ďministryĒ drew the Christians further into a larger myth. If the heavenly truth is that the church is built on the revelation given to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, does anyone really think- expect, the Spirit of God to honor the triune myth? The modern Christianity world that we now live in is mainly a pastoral business model that feeds off the myths. The ďRecoveryĒ is one of the biggest scams, in that it created a larger myth that is run by the LSM business model, using the catch of the Local Church as its corral. Iím shocked when I read that parents send their kids off to FTT so that they can be salespeople for LSM.

But, the church does need to be recovered back to the simple gospel that was presented clearly in Acts, and reinforced in the epistles of Paul. The triunists seem obsessed with looking under every scripture segment to uncover the missing link that will validate their myth as being what the original message really is. WL was a master at this.
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:35 PM   #5
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With the 3 gospels, the issue among the Jews was whether Jesus was the Christ or not. Somewhat late in Jesusí ministry, Jesus asks his chosen disciples who do men say that I am, then, who do you say that I am. Quite an interesting question to be asking those who were closest to him! Peter gives an answer that Jesus says comes from the Father- that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. All the gospels in Acts present the man, Jesus as the Christ. The Holy Spirit witnesses to this with signs and wonders. No one there is preaching a Jesus is God message.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on there!

Didn't you just tell us how Peter was given revelation from the Father in the heavens? Let me repeat Peter's word, "Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God"

God the Father Himself was preaching the "Jesus is God message."
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Old 07-27-2020, 04:18 PM   #6
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Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on there!

Didn't you just tell us how Peter was given revelation from the Father in the heavens? Let me repeat Peter's word, "Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God"

God the Father Himself was preaching the "Jesus is God message."
Whoa bro Ohio. Weren't you raised in the RCC? And so, when you read, "Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God," you see that it's saying Jesus is God, when it's clearly not ; it says THE SON of the LIVING GOD.
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Old 07-27-2020, 05:10 PM   #7
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Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on there!

Didn't you just tell us how Peter was given revelation from the Father in the heavens? Let me repeat Peter's word, "Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God"

God the Father Himself was preaching the "Jesus is God message."
Ohio- the gospel message IS that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. To the Christian believer this IS the profession. It’s the leap you make to Jesus is God. I think you are caught in a loop, and sorry, once again, I have to say that it looks like the basis is the 4th century trinity decree, with probably a few extra scoops of WL as a topping. You say you believed Jesus is God long before the LC- if you trace your belief back, you would not have gotten that from reading scripture but from the 4th century teaching. A person reading Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the son of God would not make an automatic transfer. This is where 1 Cor 8 is imperative to latch hold of. Paul absolutely says that to us there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER. This should not be disputed. Why that is such a hard saying to latch onto is because of 1500 years of the reign of the 4th century decree and the enforced acceptance by the RC.
I have no problem declaring that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, but I would not want to contradict the teaching of Jesus and Paul that there are 2 or 3 or 9 if you make a wired interpretation of Rev1! One God the Father is a must for the Christian.
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Old 07-27-2020, 05:57 PM   #8
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Ohio- the gospel message IS that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. To the Christian believer this IS the profession. Itís the leap you make to Jesus is God. I think you are caught in a loop, and sorry, once again, I have to say that it looks like the basis is the 4th century trinity decree, with probably a few extra scoops of WL as a topping. You say you believed Jesus is God long before the LC- if you trace your belief back, you would not have gotten that from reading scripture but from the 4th century teaching. A person reading Peterís revelation that Jesus is the son of God would not make an automatic transfer. This is where 1 Cor 8 is imperative to latch hold of. Paul absolutely says that to us there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER. This should not be disputed. Why that is such a hard saying to latch onto is because of 1500 years of the reign of the 4th century decree and the enforced acceptance by the RC.
I have no problem declaring that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, but I would not want to contradict the teaching of Jesus and Paul that there are 2 or 3 or 9 if you make a wired interpretation of Rev1! One God the Father is a must for the Christian.
In the timeline of the NT books, the earliest books, Mark, in the case of the gospels, and 1 Thessalonians, in regards to Paul, Jesus is not professed to be God.

But circa 50 yrs after 1 Thessalonians, and 30 yrs after Mark, as time went on, 70 years after his death, Jesus becomes God. Why was that?
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Old 07-27-2020, 10:11 PM   #9
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awareness our resident New Testament scholar strikes again! 70 years after his death Jesus became God? I think our resident church historian Boxjobox might have a dispute with you about your timing. Don't you know? Jesus became God when the Catholics declared him to be God in the 4th century!

He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision! (Psalm 2:4)

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Old 07-27-2020, 10:53 PM   #10
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He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision! (Psalm 2:4)

-
Seems that's the only time God laughs. And I complain because the gospel writers don't tell us what made Jesus laugh. Maybe best I didn't get what I wished for.

Thanks bro Untohim for jumping in with your wonderful and delightful sarcasm.

I've missed you. Will you please delete one of my posts, just for old-times sake?

And you didn't answer my question, as to why it took 70 years to start writing that Jesus was God.

By the way everyone. He became even more God as time continued. And by the 4th c. it was cinched.
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Old 07-28-2020, 09:00 AM   #11
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awareness our resident New Testament scholar strikes again! 70 years after his death Jesus became God? I think our resident church historian Boxjobox might have a dispute with you about your timing. Don't you know? Jesus became God when the Catholics declared him to be God in the 4th century!

He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision! (Psalm 2:4)

-
Our dear brother, Untohim, doesn’t realize his namesake reveals the secret to this whole debate. Ephesians- Paul prays on blended knees that the people would see- a revelation as it were, what the God of Jesus did- the wisdom, the power, the working, the-dare I say-the economy of God, in raising the crucified Jesus from the dead, and installing him at the right hand making him Lord over all, and giving him as head overall to the church. It is unto Him, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that there should be glory in the church. When one sets up Jesus as God, the revelation, the blessing, the economy of God is substituted for a different scenario, a different narrative, a different gospel, a different “revelation” and thus, God,, the God of our Lord Jesus, the one who raised Christ from the dead and set him at His right hand until his enemies become his footstool, the very God of the namesake UntoHim, is robbed of that glory in the Church, through an evil Balaam teaching that Jezebel took and caused the people of God to fall into the worst idolatry-setting the anointed one up above the one who anointed him! Thus was the condition of the church for 1600 years, and it is thus that UntoHim falls subservient to in not receiving the revelation Paul speaks of, but the false substitute of that 4th century decree that brought about the demise of that entity which should have been and should be giving glory to God, the God of our Lord Jesus. So, alas, the Church which should be filled with Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, will remain stuck in the Oh Lord Jesus mantra, worshipping the one on the right hand of God as God and changing the whole commission of the Church to proclaim a false narrative.
UntoHim- look at church history, look at from whence we have fallen, look at your namesake, look at what should have been recovered, and look how you are stuck in the 4th century tar pit of tri theism, trying to make sense of it all, hey the more the struggles the deeper the tar!
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Old 07-28-2020, 09:38 AM   #12
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Our dear brother, Untohim, doesnít realize his namesake reveals the secret to this whole debate. Ephesians- Paul prays on blended knees that the people would see- a revelation as it were, what the God of Jesus did- the wisdom, the power, the working, the-dare I say-the economy of God, in raising the crucified Jesus from the dead, and installing him at the right hand making him Lord over all, and giving him as head overall to the church. It is unto Him, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that there should be glory in the church. When one sets up Jesus as God, the revelation, the blessing, the economy of God is substituted for a different scenario, a different narrative, a different gospel, a different ďrevelationĒ and thus, God,, the God of our Lord Jesus, the one who raised Christ from the dead and set him at His right hand until his enemies become his footstool, the very God of the namesake UntoHim, is robbed of that glory in the Church, through an evil Balaam teaching that Jezebel took and caused the people of God to fall into the worst idolatry-setting the anointed one up above the one who anointed him! Thus was the condition of the church for 1600 years, and it is thus that UntoHim falls subservient to in not receiving the revelation Paul speaks of, but the false substitute of that 4th century decree that brought about the demise of that entity which should have been and should be giving glory to God, the God of our Lord Jesus. So, alas, the Church which should be filled with Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, will remain stuck in the Oh Lord Jesus mantra, worshipping the one on the right hand of God as God and changing the whole commission of the Church to proclaim a false narrative.
UntoHim- look at church history, look at from whence we have fallen, look at your namesake, look at what should have been recovered, and look how you are stuck in the 4th century tar pit of tri theism, trying to make sense of it all, hey the more the struggles the deeper the tar!
This is a pretty pathetic critique of Moderator UntoHim. How ironic and disingenuous to equate historic orthodox views of the Trinity on the notion that the church "will remain stuck in the Oh Lord Jesus mantra." No one is more against this practice of vain babbling, taking the Lord's name in vain, than UntoHim.

BJB you are starting to remind me of a misguided Christian we once knew. He also attended the church of one, himself as the only member, and armed himself with a scripture to condemn all others. He was assured that prayer could only be offered to God the Father in a closet (Matt 6.6), and all those churches praying in public must be soundly condemned! You, my friend, appear to have the same judgmental spirit.
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:07 PM   #13
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This is a pretty pathetic critique of Moderator UntoHim0. How ironic and disingenuous to equate historic orthodox views of the Trinity on the notion that the church "will remain stuck in the Oh Lord Jesus mantra." No one is more against this practice of vain babbling, taking the Lord's name in vain, than UntoHim.

BJB you are starting to remind me of a misguided Christian we once knew. He also attended the church of one, himself as the only member, and armed himself with a scripture to condemn all others. He was assured that prayer could only be offered to God the Father in a closet (Matt 6.6), and all those churches praying in public must be soundly condemned! You, my friend, appear to have the same judgmental spirit.
I didnít think it was pathetic critique but rather a good way to bate Untohim to defend his position. Not sure why you feel a need to speak for him. I have great, great respect for Untohim.
Concerning judgement- I think I have been really consistent over the years to present what I feel is the issue with WL/LSM, with the LC and with Christianity as a whole. I trace it back to the difference between the scriptures and the orthodoxy that took hold in the 4th century. I find this an excellent site to discuss this issue in that most Of us have been through the LC/ Recovery wringer and come out, and I think it is important to see and discuss each of our reactions and how we carry on our lives.

You, by your statements on your last post side with orthodoxy. I have presented reams of scripture that would point out that there was no such teaching in the foundational church we see in scripture. To compare my opinions to someone else is your prerogative, but has no bearing on the discussion, other than to deflect an opinion that you do not hold. You seem happy relating to God as a trinity, and take Jesus as your God- I got that- been there and done that myself- With my history, I could probably argue the trinitarian viewpoint as well as any, but I find it false and damaging to the church. I think itís an error, whose time has come to eradicate.
If you look on the main site, I see very, very little praise to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, but a kind of rah rah Jesus thing going on constantly- itís not an Oh Lord Jesus mantra we all had in the LC, but it is of the same effect- it puts Jesus in a position over God! It reinforces a Jesus is God theology that does not exist in the NT. It is so ingrained in those of you that follow the modern version of the trinity orthodoxy that I donít even think you are aware of it- itís a kind of base-brain response and acknowledgement that I really find off the mark of scripture. It creates a false god. If you look at Jesus and Paulís speaking, it is a constant acknowledgement and praise to the God and Father of Jesus.

Take a look at what is posted on the main site Trinity thread- people are all over the map and just throw up what they think will stick- having no relation to what is practiced by the foundational church- that is pathetic!
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Old 07-28-2020, 09:22 PM   #14
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This is a pretty pathetic critique of Moderator UntoHim. How ironic and disingenuous to equate historic orthodox views of the Trinity on the notion that the church "will remain stuck in the Oh Lord Jesus mantra." No one is more against this practice of vain babbling, taking the Lord's name in vain, than UntoHim.

BJB you are starting to remind me of a misguided Christian we once knew. He also attended the church of one, himself as the only member, and armed himself with a scripture to condemn all others. He was assured that prayer could only be offered to God the Father in a closet (Matt 6.6), and all those churches praying in public must be soundly condemned! You, my friend, appear to have the same judgmental spirit.
Yeah BJB, Untohim called me a New Testament scholar. And he's a Evangelical, not a Catholic.

However, all Christians, including you, stand on what was established in the 4th c. The very books we believe to be the very word of God was canonized by the RCC, in the 4th c., by Eusebius -- a good buddy with Constantine -- and first church historian (and he wasn't inspired while selecting the books, by any of the three ("gods"), neither the Father, Son, nor Holy Spirit ... purposely and deliberately, btw ... because of Montanus and The New Prophecy - 2nd to 3rd century).

The only "canon" before that was the books of Marcion of Sinope, who selected Paul's books, and a modified Luke. He went so far as to deny the God of the OT, as a lower demiurge god, that we had to transcend to get to the real God the Father.

And talking about recovering the early church, Marcion (late 1st c. early 2nd c.) wanted to recover it back to Paul, who wrote the earliest books of our NT, and about half of it.

Now BJB, I don't know back to where that you want to recover the church, but if'n ya want to go back to the infant early church, it was Jewish. Then the Pentecost happened. That was the official birth of Christianity.

Seems to me, if you want to recover the early church you're gonna half to have the same thing happen. And you're gonna half to go back to before any of the NT books were written. The early church was pre-NT.

We have an account of it all in The Acts of the Apostles, written decades after it all happened. And the star in that book is Paul. So Marcion was at least onto to something.

Accept, he didn't go back to before NT books were written ; back when direct connection to God the Father didn't need books as an intermediary.

Can we live without the books of the NT? If so, we've recovered the early church ... way before the gospels were written, especially the gospel we now call John, that was written at the end of the first century, same as btw, Revelation, written around the same time.

Can we do that?
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Old 07-29-2020, 05:15 AM   #15
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I didnít think it was pathetic critique but rather a good way to bate Untohim to defend his position. Not sure why you feel a need to speak for him. I have great, great respect for Untohim.
This only confirms my comments. UntoHim has stated his positions repeatedly, but you still feel the need to bate (sic) him. By the way, internet "baiting" is also known as trolling.

Someone recently commented that you are the "Unitarian Drake" on this forum, not here to contribute positively, but to constantly disrupt with deviant and discredited opinions.

I just don't get how you would consider your posts to be indicative of one who has "great, great respect for Untohim."
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Old 07-29-2020, 05:24 AM   #16
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Can we live without the books of the NT?

Can we do that?
No! And we neither should nor have to.

The early church had the O.T. and those who were with Jesus, personally discipled by Him. It is their ministry which gave us the N.T. Since they are gone, God has left us with His Spirit and His word. He also has continually given gifts to the body of Christ for perfecting and building up.
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Old 07-29-2020, 06:40 AM   #17
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This only confirms my comments. UntoHim has stated his positions repeatedly, but you still feel the need to bate (sic) him. By the way, internet "baiting" is also known as trolling.

Someone recently commented that you are the "Unitarian Drake" on this forum, not here to contribute positively, but to constantly disrupt with deviant and discredited opinions.

I just don't get how you would consider your posts to be indicative of one who has "great, great respect for Untohim."
Does respect require agreement?
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:22 AM   #18
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This only confirms my comments. UntoHim has stated his positions repeatedly, but you still feel the need to bate (sic) him. By the way, internet "baiting" is also known as trolling.

Someone recently commented that you are the "Unitarian Drake" on this forum, not here to contribute positively, but to constantly disrupt with deviant and discredited opinions.

I just don't get how you would consider your posts to be indicative of one who has "great, great respect for Untohim."
Ohio- please look up the definition of BATEóthe trinitarian doctrine does not allow for descent, and the followers become quite heated when an opposing view is present- such as Untohim not allowing a good discussion of modalism to include the view that the whole triune thing is not taught in scripture. My attempt with my writing about the meaning of Untohim deriving from Ephesians, an epistle that in no wise could be taken as trinitarian, was an attempt to perhaps nudge Untohim into considering the usage and source and maybe cooling the fervor and opening up for deBATE.

You, Ohio, being a devotee to the orthodox trinity, do not see my points as help, and of course, it would follow that you see my points, which correspond with the teaching of Paul and Jesus that there is One God, the Father, as being a distraction and a disruption. What kind of help do you see yourself offering by deviating from scripture and insisting on the acceptance of a 4th century decree? If you feel that that decree has preeminence over scripture, you should seek the source organization which holds the documents- the Church of Rome. I think, for you, the whole thought of recovery of the church is passŤ. For me, I look for the hand of God and the Spirit of God to restore that for which Paul labored so intensely and, of course, that for which Christ died. I think a blueprint for the contents of such a church would be found in Paulís epistle to the Ephesians, which glorifies the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, offers us a concrete vision of Christ, the head, and succinctly points out that keeping the oneness involves the proclaiming of One God, the Father. You, on the other hand seek some sort of entity that proclaims the Nicene creed as the basis for oneness. Do you see a spiritual problem with your stance? I think not, to your shame. You offer no real hope to those who escaped the LSM cult.
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:54 AM   #19
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Yeah BJB, Untohim called me a New Testament scholar. And he's a Evangelical, not a Catholic.

However, all Christians, including you, stand on what was established in the 4th c. The very books we believe to be the very word of God was canonized by the RCC, in the 4th c., by Eusebius -- a good buddy with Constantine -- and first church historian (and he wasn't inspired while selecting the books, by any of the three ("gods"), neither the Father, Son, nor Holy Spirit ... purposely and deliberately, btw ... because of Montanus and The New Prophecy - 2nd to 3rd century).

The only "canon" before that was the books of Marcion of Sinope, who selected Paul's books, and a modified Luke. He went so far as to deny the God of the OT, as a lower demiurge god, that we had to transcend to get to the real God the Father.

And talking about recovering the early church, Marcion (late 1st c. early 2nd c.) wanted to recover it back to Paul, who wrote the earliest books of our NT, and about half of it.

Now BJB, I don't know back to where that you want to recover the church, but if'n ya want to go back to the infant early church, it was Jewish. Then the Pentecost happened. That was the official birth of Christianity.

Seems to me, if you want to recover the early church you're gonna half to have the same thing happen. And you're gonna half to go back to before any of the NT books were written. The early church was pre-NT.

We have an account of it all in The Acts of the Apostles, written decades after it all happened. And the star in that book is Paul. So Marcion was at least onto to something.

Accept, he didn't go back to before NT books were written ; back when direct connection to God the Father didn't need books as an intermediary.

Can we live without the books of the NT? If so, we've recovered the early church ... way before the gospels were written, especially the gospel we now call John, that was written at the end of the first century, same as btw, Revelation, written around the same time.

Can we do that?
I would say that the formation of the NT, which yes, was compiled 4th century, was taken from that which was written at the time of the formative years of the church. Luke and Acts and epistles of Paul give a pretty good understanding of the Christian faith, the contents of the formative years. This did not include a Jesus is God message, but one that told of the work and plan of God in raising Christ from the dead.
There obviously had been a few centuries of the formation of the Jesus is God thing and the diverse opinions had to be brought to a cohesive doctrine that would satisfy Constantine, so the vote was taken, and voila the great Roman religion was formed. (Obviously this is an abbreviated account). As we have pointed out before, this put the dissenters to such a decree in, shall we say, hot water! Preaching, liturgy, songs, myths were formed around this decree, which ruled the roost for the next 1000 years. The reformers tried to deal with some of the organizational problems and some of the myths, but couldnít shake the great decree, which still holds sway today!
My view of recovery of the church would be to hold to what was taught by Paul, dump the trinity thing, which would restore glory to the God and Father of Jesus, Put our thinking of the Christ in the right perspective, set sail, and hope and expect that God would give the wind of the Spirit.
It seems that most that participate in this site are Holden to the trinitarian theology, which keeps them in the 4th century. They would probably do better returning to the Roman Catholic organization; it is the home of their source document, which would save them from wandering incoherently And aimlessly through christiandom. Iím sure there is plenty of holy water there to purify their prodigal souls.
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:59 AM   #20
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Ohio- please look up the definition of BATE—the trinitarian doctrine does not allow for descent, and the followers become quite heated when an opposing view is present-
Help me out here Boxjobox, I'm confused, I don't understand your comments here.

And you say I am hard to follow.

Definition of bate:
1. to moderate or restrain: to bate one's enthusiasm.
2. to lessen or diminish; abate.
3. to diminish or subside; abate.
Definition of descent:
1. the act, process, or fact of moving from a higher to a lower position.
2. a downward inclination or slope.
3. a passage or stairway leading down.
4. derivation from an ancestor; lineage; extraction.
5. any passing from higher to lower in degree or state; decline.
6. a sudden raid or hostile attack.
Please tell me which of these definitions for these 2 words are you using.

And who is getting "heated?" Perhaps you should define "heated" also. Seems to me semantics is a huge issue here.
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Old 07-29-2020, 10:15 AM   #21
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I would say that the formation of the NT, which yes, was compiled 4th century, was taken from that which was written at the time of the formative years of the church.
This promotes an extremely naive and distorted view of the New Testament canon. Only a handful of books, i.e. the antilegomena, were not officially recognized by the entire church extant until the early 4th century. Close to 90% of the NT scripture, including the gospels and every major teaching, was unanimously received by the early church, long before the time of Constantine. Peter himself (2 Pet 3.15-16), representing the entire mid-1st century church, called all of Paul's letters part of the "scriptures."
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:22 PM   #22
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No! And we neither should nor have to.

The early church had the O.T. and those who were with Jesus, personally discipled by Him. It is their ministry which gave us the N.T.
Then why didn't they sign their gospels? And if the 4 gospels were written by the disciples, then where's the other 8 that didn't. And Paul wasn't with Jesus, and his writings, if we accept that all the writings attributed to him were by him, takes up half of the NT. So was it Paul that turned the early church away from those discipled by Jesus?

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Since they are gone, God has left us with His Spirit and His word.
I suppose your catholic eyes can't help but see it that way, since it was not God that left us with "His" word, but the RCC, the selection of the books that wasn't even inspired by God. But it's not just you, all Christians today, just blindly accept what the RCC, and Constantine, left us, and call them, simple-mindedly, the word of God.

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He also has continually given gifts to the body of Christ for perfecting and building up.
Looking back into church history, His gifts of perfecting and building up, have dismally failed. I guess then, since God has been perfecting and building up the church for 2000 years, as you say, how was Witness Lee able to pull the wool over our eyes, with his silly recovery, that wasn't needed in the least.

Lee certainty wasn't recovering that Jesus was God, or the trinity. That was firmly established in the 4th c, and according to most out here, firmly establish by Jesus himself (btw folks, the preamble in John was not spoken by Jesus himself. It was concocted by whoever wrote that book, as Jesus had been gone for 65 years.

So I guess your lovely sentiment means that Lee was just continuing to perfect and build up the church, and called it a recovery, that wasn't needed, since we can't recover the early days of the church, cuz we can't go back to those discpled by Jesus, and it's not needed, since in 2000 yrs God has surely completely perfected and built up the church???

According to you, both the recovery movement, and the restoration movement, has never succeeded? Cuz we can't replicate what was going on back then, with the disciples present.

So why try? Attempts are nothing but delusional, in the least, and trickery, and flimflammery, in the most. Don't be fooled. Neither can accomplish recovering or restoring the church back to the days of the disciples.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:33 PM   #23
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This promotes an extremely naive and distorted view of the New Testament canon. Only a handful of books, i.e. the antilegomena, were not officially recognized by the entire church extant until the early 4th century. Close to 90% of the NT scripture, including the gospels and every major teaching, was unanimously received by the early church, long before the time of Constantine. Peter himself (2 Pet 3.15-16), representing the entire mid-1st century church, called all of Paul's letters part of the "scriptures."
Ohio- You do get heated, and then start to misstate my writing: I used the word compile for the NT- obviously the writings were around before that time.
And yes, Peter recognized Paulís writings as scripture- but wouldn't that mean you should give earnest heed to what Paul wrote concerning One God the Father? I donít see yourself addressing or promoting that sacred decree given by Paul the apostle. You seem to want to run more to debasing me than- a shoot the messenger approach rather than addressing my premise that I derived directly from the scripture that you feel I somehow debase.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:37 PM   #24
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Help me out here Boxjobox, I'm confused, I don't understand your comments here.

And you say I am hard to follow.

Definition of bate:
1. to moderate or restrain: to bate one's enthusiasm.
2. to lessen or diminish; abate.
3. to diminish or subside; abate.
Definition of descent:
1. the act, process, or fact of moving from a higher to a lower position.
2. a downward inclination or slope.
3. a passage or stairway leading down.
4. derivation from an ancestor; lineage; extraction.
5. any passing from higher to lower in degree or state; decline.
6. a sudden raid or hostile attack.
Please tell me which of these definitions for these 2 words are you using.

And who is getting "heated?" Perhaps you should define "heated" also. Seems to me semantics is a huge issue here.
Bate is used correctly. Descent was wrongly used- mea maxima culpa! I write my things using an iPad which, if I donít proofread sometimes selects words unintentionally. Thank you for catching that- should have been dissent. Error duly noted now back to the bashing!
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Old 07-29-2020, 04:11 PM   #25
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I didnít think it was pathetic critique but rather a good way to bate Untohim to defend his position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Definition of bate: to diminish one's enthusiasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Bate is used correctly.
Now, that is confusing. Explain to me how you decided that your post was a good way to diminish UntoHim's enthusiasm in order for him to defend his position.

That's the opposite of your original intention according to the context. Please check your iPad dictionary again.
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Old 07-29-2020, 04:19 PM   #26
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According to you, both the recovery movement, and the restoration movement, has never succeeded? Cuz we can't replicate what was going on back then, with the disciples present.

So why try? Attempts are nothing but delusional, in the least, and trickery, and flimflammery, in the most. Don't be fooled. Neither can accomplish recovering or restoring the church back to the days of the disciples.
You definitely seem seem have given up trying to live any sort of life prescribed in the Bible.

But then why do you spend so much of your time trying to disprove the Bible and the reality of the Lord?

Isn't it harder to kick against the goads?
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Old 07-29-2020, 10:51 PM   #27
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You definitely seem seem have given up trying to live any sort of life prescribed in the Bible.

But then why do you spend so much of your time trying to disprove the Bible and the reality of the Lord?

Isn't it harder to kick against the goads?
There's plenty of evidence that the Bible can be taken in many differing ways.

I think it's safe to say, that, for most of my life I looked at it as you presently do : that it's totally divine thru and thru. When I was a teen I even thought that it was a magic book ; that would magically lead me to ever greater blessings, and benefits. It did eventually lead to the LC and Lee ... some blessings ... oh yeah.

They say that Jesus was both human and divine, and so it is with the Bible. For awhile now I've been looking into the human side. I'm sorry if it disturbs you. It's not intended. I'm just sharing what I've learn about its human side with y'all.
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Old 07-29-2020, 11:02 PM   #28
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Now, that is confusing. Explain to me how you decided that your post was a good way to diminish UntoHim's enthusiasm in order for him to defend his position.

That's the opposite of your original intention according to the context. Please check your iPad dictionary again.
I explained my choice of the word BATE a few posts up, but I will try again, lest you forever look to find fault. The name taken Untohim comes fro Ephesians 3. The Him refers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Ephesians should be a work that would eradicate the whole notion of Jesus is God/ trinity thing. Untohim is quite adamant concerning his love for this orthodox teaching, to the point that he removes anything I would write because I have an opposing view that I am quite strong about. My hope in pointing out the meaning of the name would be that perhaps he would consider that Paul did not hold the 4th century orthodoxy that Untohim holds precious. Bate meaning to moderate, I wish he could come to moderate his position in light of the contents of Paulís letter to the Ephesians so that we could deBATE the issue.

As I wrote before, I have great admiration and respect for Untohim in that he confronted the situation in the LC head on in a way that was most noble considering the mindset of the LC at that time. I think he expected elders to respond in a like manner, but was met with- well, we all know.
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Old 07-29-2020, 11:24 PM   #29
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You definitely seem seem have given up trying to live any sort of life prescribed in the Bible.

But then why do you spend so much of your time trying to disprove the Bible and the reality of the Lord?

Isn't it harder to kick against the goads?
Iíve got it Ohio- you care for scripture! How about if you practice what Paul teaches and acknowledge that there is but one God, the Father, and you could go to the main site on trinitarianism and discuss how you have turned from the erroneous 4th century trinitarian decree and have accepted the scripture given to us by Paul. Then, in my stead, as Iím not allowed to post on that site, you could convey this to all. Unless, of course you do not accept the scripture and would rather wallow in a man made god of three persons, at which time, you then may want to apologize to Awareness for his lack of living by a biblical life. This seems to be one of those Oh Lord Jesus moments for you- either follow the admonition of Paul to keep the oneness of the Spirit by professing One God and Father, or live in a false man made narrative. This is kind of like hearing the gospel- itís up to you to receive it or continue living in a false world.
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Old 07-30-2020, 01:12 PM   #30
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Noah failed and was not covered and covered by different sons. We all have failed and are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. We will be held accountable for every word too. I have come to this site from time to time over the last 12 years or so since meeting the saints in the LR. I've not engaged here prior but felt to address some points now.

Though you have 10000 guides in Christ you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. There is a major difference between the Roman Catholic fathers and the brothers taking the lead in the Lord's recovery as "fathers"...and I think most here know that. Go to a LC meeting and then a mass and it could not be more different.

Watch the fireside chats with Chris Wilde as a part of a panel (on youtube) and tell me are these brothers not shepherding the flock, healing wounds, caring for the church? Or just keep staring at the inside of the trash can...as seems to be the function of this thread.

A year has passed. I never knew Jo or her husband but clearly they did not get the care they needed which was tripartite care, love, listening ears, and words of life. I wept when I found out Greg took his own life and I never knew him. We are greatly saddened by this and regretful that this whole situation happened around a year ago.

Also, I meet in a church where there are saints who are mature and examples of fine Christian character and living...and I can't remember hearing a name besides Christ's in 99% of speaking in meetings I attend. We honor the 7 decades of labor by Witness Lee but good God, we dont pray to him or idolize him. If there is a recovery on the earth would not that recovery stand on the shoulders of all of church history? If it is not with this group where is it? Is it a division of this recovery? How could that be when God is a God of oneness?

I don't know "co-workers" in the recovery but from listening to their messages they don't lead me to anything extra Biblical. When I read Lee's writings (which is a lot of the time his speaking transcribed) there is a whole lot of Christ. You can use the Bible to argue nearly anything, you can use Lee's ministry to argue many things too...but the Lord's recovery today is prevailing as a place of oneness, despite any trash you want to sort through here.

I've been around the churchlife over 10 years now and am confident that though some here on this site have bible truth and knowledge, the prevailing factor here is division. How am I wrong in these observations?

Lord Jesus praise You as the tree of life! Lord Jesus we love You, cause us to turn to You, that in these dark times You will build the church and turn the age. Come dear Lord Jesus, the problems need to be dealt with. Take care of it all, gain Your dispensational instrument, descend with your mighty ones! Hallelujah praise You Lord Jesus! Care for all these in this thread and cause them to love You and care for Your Church, wherever they meet, and even build all the way up to Your coming. Thank You for Your mercy. Praise You Father.
I took this from the main site as a good case study of the LC problem with trinitarianism, and particularly their own brand of it.
Before you read this, spend a few minutes to read 1 Thes. and a couple of chapters in Ephesians then ask yourself why after 10 years would someone write this and think this presents a glorious recovery of the church? The oneness they speak of is a oneness of people who have sold their souls over to WL/LSM. The results of that ministry is meetings where they can’t remember hearing a name besides Christ’s 99% of the time ( no mention of what name they hear the other 1%) . Does this sound like what Paul speaks of in Ephesians? Thessalonians? There is a major gap here, and that gap is what was lost by the 4th century with the Nicene creed, trinity decree. Yes, the LC stands on some shoulders- of feet well planted in that debacle. In reading 1Thes, notice how Paul speaks overwhelmingly of God, the Father. Paul does so, because his mind is that there is one God, the Father, by whom and through whom and for whom are all things. The mindset here is what was taught by WL and now LSM, to focus on the morphed Jesus. The so called recovery, although they have elders instead of priests which is nice, will never be any kind of recovery of the church, only a furtherance of the mayhem caused by the trinitarian falsehood. You would actually hear more speaking and worshipping of God the Father in one Catholic mass then you would in months of LC. They cannot speak like, think like, minister like, build the church like Paul, because they have a whole different focal point, a whole different gospel, and are looking for an unscriptural outcome. The oneness Paul spoke of was that which contained the acknowledgment of one God, the Father. When one follows a ministry that disregards this, one should not expect a scriptural outcome.
The doxology at the end sound like one who is frantic because the threads of their garment are all becoming unraveled in public. Love the Praise you Father thrown on at the end- shouldn’t that have been the theme of the entire post?
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:18 PM   #31
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From 2 different posts by Boxjobox :
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJB
Then, in my stead, as I’m not allowed to post on that site, you could convey this to all.

Untohim is quite adamant concerning his love for this orthodox teaching, to the point that he removes anything I would write because I have an opposing view that I am quite strong about.
So this merged thread was Untohim's way of excommunicating bro BJB from the Evangelical section of LCD. I've been there. That's why I left. Welcome to the dungeon bro BJB. Did you learn your lesson? See. Jesus was God, and founded the trinity.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:33 AM   #32
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From 2 different posts by Boxjobox :

So this merged thread was Untohim's way of excommunicating bro BJB from the Evangelical section of LCD. I've been there. That's why I left. Welcome to the dungeon bro BJB. Did you learn your lesson? See. Jesus was God, and founded the trinity.
So, this is an evangelical Christian discussion forum? Who knew!
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:26 AM   #33
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So, this is an evangelical Christian discussion forum? Who knew!
Local Church Discussions to be precise.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. The main part of this forum, as run by Untohim, is the evangelical section of LCD, and is hemmed in to that end, and loosely based upon evangelical premises, dogma, and orthodoxy ... loosely except when violated.

If, on that section, you stray from those premises, Untohim sends your posts, and/or threads, down to AltVs, or just deletes them.

I'm guessing that, this merged thread is a product of that. I guess BJB questioning the trinity, and/or that, Jesus was God, is outside evangelical orthodoxy, so down to tartarus with him, and his heterodoxy.

To then join the likes of me ... demoted from moderator to Sisyphus in Tartarus, continually rolling a large boulder up and down the mountainside of AltV's.

According to Hesiod, a brazen anvil would take nine days and nights to fall from heaven to earth [LCD], and nine days and nights to fall from earth to Tartarus {AltVs] ... where all trinity deniers and Jesus is God deniers are tossed down into.

Welcome all, to Tartarus [AltVs] ... if you dare deny Evangelical Orthodoxy ... the main LCD section ... the Upper Room.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:41 PM   #34
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Local Church Discussions to be precise.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. The main part of this forum, as run by Untohim, is the evangelical section of LCD, and is hemmed in to that end, and loosely based upon evangelical premises, dogma, and orthodoxy ... loosely except when violated.

If, on that section, you stray from those premises, Untohim sends your posts, and/or threads, down to AltVs, or just deletes them.

I'm guessing that, this merged thread is a product of that. I guess BJB questioning the trinity, and/or that, Jesus was God, is outside evangelical orthodoxy, so down to tartarus with him, and his heterodoxy.

To then join the likes of me ... demoted from moderator to Sisyphus in Tartarus, continually rolling a large boulder up and down the mountainside of AltV's.

According to Hesiod, a brazen anvil would take nine days and nights to fall from heaven to earth [LCD], and nine days and nights to fall from earth to Tartarus {AltVs] ... where all trinity deniers and Jesus is God deniers are tossed down into.

Welcome all, to Tartarus [AltVs] ... if you dare deny Evangelical Orthodoxy ... the main LCD section ... the Upper Room.
If UntoHim did not limit the forum to evangelical orthodoxy, you might have us all wandering around the universe following some ancient Greek mythological characters. Or worse, you might have them all voting for Joe Biden!
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:37 PM   #35
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If UntoHim did not limit the forum to evangelical orthodoxy, you might have us all wandering around the universe following some ancient Greek mythological characters. Or worse, you might have them all voting for Joe Biden!
Bahahahahahahahaha ...

Or worse ... claim that the trinity is not in the Bible ... and that Jesus was not God.
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:04 PM   #36
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Bahahahahahahahaha ...

Or worse ... claim that the trinity is not in the Bible ... and that Jesus was not God.
But why would anyone spend their time trying to prove that Jesus is not God, knowing that one day we all have to face Him at the judgment seat.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:47 PM   #37
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But why would anyone spend their time trying to prove that Jesus is not God, knowing that one day we all have to face Him at the judgment seat.
I wonder why too, Ohio, like you. But I have to admit, I've waste tones of time, energy, and even money, looking into these matters. Was Jesus God? I don't know. Is God a trinity? I don't know. I doubt it, but I know the Bible speaks of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And that's three.

But let's say that God is a trinity, AND the Son, and we're all convinced of it. Does that change my daily relationship with God? Same with no trinity, and the son just being the son of the Father. Does that change my daily walk with God?

However, there is a problem, if we're doing our darnedest to stick to scripture. Then my daily life with God is disturbed, by infusing my brain with the problem of what the Bible says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

You'd think that sticking to the Bible would result in oneness. However, it seems, it results in division.

I like my simple daily relationship with God ... where I don't have to think about all the inscrutable questions about God.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:52 AM   #38
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You'd think that sticking to the Bible would result in oneness. However, it seems, it results in division.

I like my simple daily relationship with God ... where I don't have to think about all the inscrutable questions about God.
Really??? Sticking to the Bible produces the most contention. No two folks ever agree on everything in the Bible.

That's why the Bible mentions the oneness of the Spirit.

And I'm confused. You are one of the chief sources on this forum concerning all the "inscrutable questions about God." I'm constantly amazed by the things you tend to think about. You bring up things I have never even heard of.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:02 AM   #39
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But why would anyone spend their time trying to prove that Jesus is not God, knowing that one day we all have to face Him at the judgment seat.
Ohio- you really need to start picking up what is scriptural and what is myth- once again READ ACTS

16.30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.Ē
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:06 AM   #40
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Really??? Sticking to the Bible produces the most contention. No two folks ever agree on everything in the Bible.

That's why the Bible mentions the oneness of the Spirit.

And I'm confused. You are one of the chief sources on this forum concerning all the "inscrutable questions about God." I'm constantly amazed by the things you tend to think about. You bring up things I have never even heard of.
Of course, oneness of the Spirit comes from acknowledging One God and Father. Division definitely comes from manufacturing a 3 person God, because 1) itís not presented as a scriptural teaching 2) when man defines God he can add or subtract whatever he wishes
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:19 AM   #41
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If UntoHim did not limit the forum to evangelical orthodoxy, you might have us all wandering around the universe following some ancient Greek mythological characters. Or worse, you might have them all voting for Joe Biden!
If Untohim stuck to keeping the site related to Nťe, Lee, and Local Church discussion- shouldnít be a problem. Imposing a Orthodox Christianity caveat over it means that one has to accept and speak of trinity and Jesus is God thing to participate. This would mean Paul could not chime in! Nor James, Peter, Jude. John would be accepted at first, but then would be kicked off because he wrote that there is only one true God, the Father. And Jesus would end up on this alt site because he would talk about his God, the Father. Do you really think Untohim would want a discussion about the God of Jesus?

If WL started a new Orthodox branch of Christianity, I could see limiting the discussion to orthodoxy, but he claimed to be recovering the true church. In the foundational church as presented in Acts and by Paul, you donít have a Jesus is God gospel, nor a teaching about a 3 person god. How can we discuss recovery and WLs theological errors without stating the foundational churchís understanding of God and his Christ?
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:41 AM   #42
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My goodness, I guess I've really made it big....I'm being tag teamed by a staunch Unitarian and a stone cold atheist! How cool is that!

So you guys really think that those 4th century Christians just fell off their horse-drawn, bumped their heads and came up with the Trinity? Did one of their horses kick em in the noggin and they suddenly believed Jesus was God? You guys should consider being stand up comedians (as soon as the clubs open)

There is a clear record of the earliest Christians teaching and believing that Jesus was God - that he shared in the divine "substance" with the Father. They also clearly taught and believed in the Trinity, although they used different terminology. Polycarp was a first generation "church Father". He clearly believed and taught that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was God incarnate. He also believed and taught the doctrine of the Trinity. There are many other first generation Christian teachers and scholars who also believed and taught the earliest forms of the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Nicene creed did not decide that Jesus was God, or that there are three divine persons that compose the Godhead, rather it confirmed that these were orthodox doctrines that had been passed down from the original apostles. To say that Jesus "became God", or that the Trinity was invented, at the council of Nicaea is patently false.

I hope to have a little more time over the next few days to converse with you fellows about this.
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:14 AM   #43
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My goodness, I guess I've really made it big....I'm being tag teamed by a staunch Unitarian and a stone cold atheist! How cool is that!

So you guys really think that those 4th century Christians just fell off their horse-drawn, bumped their heads and came up with the Trinity? Did one of their horses kick em in the noggin and they suddenly believed Jesus was God? You guys should consider being stand up comedians (as soon as the clubs open)

There is a clear record of the earliest Christians teaching and believing that Jesus was God - that he shared in the divine "substance" with the Father. They also clearly taught and believed in the Trinity, although they used different terminology. Polycarp was a first generation "church Father". He clearly believed and taught that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was God incarnate. He also believed and taught the doctrine of the Trinity. There are many other first generation Christian teachers and scholars who also believed and taught the earliest forms of the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Nicene creed did not decide that Jesus was God, or that there are three divine persons that compose the Godhead, rather it confirmed that these were orthodox doctrines that had been passed down from the original apostles. To say that Jesus "became God", or that the Trinity was invented, at the council of Nicaea is patently false.

I hope to have a little more time over the next few days to converse with you fellows about this.
-
My my, Untohim, how quickly we move away from scripture and the direct teachings of Paul. On your main site, you got one quoting CS Lewis as the divine inspiration, another talking about the elephant’s tail; but bringing out that Paul, in no uncertain terms told the Corinthians that there is but one God, the Father ( you know, a nasty, inconvenient scriptural truth), then there is mayhem in the trinitarian ranks. Of course, I should add that in telling the Corinthians that there is one God, the Father, he also, to their shame, pointed out that everyone does not have that knowledge (something to consider on your side of the fence! I’m doing my best to inform)
Maybe, Untohim your next banner should be right there from 1Cor 8. Declare to all that a Paul said there is one God, the Father; then, it would be easier to come to grips with oneness being maintained by adhering to this as Paul, again in no uncertain terms begs the Ephesians to uphold.
You may want to take a historical note that the more the trinitarian stuff took over, the more evil took place in the church- it’s well worth noting, and goes along splendidly with John’s writings to the 7 churches.
Of course there is a build up to the 4th century edicts and the torture it brought, and the “poor, poor Christianity” that followed. You, dear brother are looking backward from the 21st century after almost two millennia of trinitarianism imposed on the church and justifying it not based on the teachings of scripture. You’re stand actually makes the scripture 2nd rate to the orthodoxy. Look at it from the foundational church portrayed in the scriptures, and Galatians will make perfect sense.

And, how Christian it is for you to visit us lowly in the dungeon- true religion in practice!
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:51 PM   #44
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Ohio- you really need to start picking up what is scriptural and what is myth- once again READ ACTS

16.30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.Ē

So ... Is Jesus God or not?
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Old 08-01-2020, 01:23 PM   #45
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Ohio- you really need to start picking up what is scriptural and what is myth- once again READ ACTS

16.30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.Ē
BJB, I love those verses in Acts 17 which Paul spoke to the Athenians.

And yes, the eternal, only begotten Son of God is now, and will ever be a MAN! Yes, He is! I have repeatedly acknowledged this. There is no dispute here.

And yes, on this matter, contrary to your teachings, Acts and the Gospel of John exactly coincide: "For the Father does not judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." (John 5.22)

And yes, Jesus Christ is a man, now resurrected with a spiritual body. But where is that verse that says Jesus stopped being God when both He and the apostles clearly identified Him as a man?

And have you not also read Acts 20.28 where Paul exhorts the elders, "to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased through His own blood."

The glaring problem which you seem to have is that your mind can not comprehend how Jesus can be both God and man. You just need more faith. Yes, the N.T. does emphasize the humanity of the Son of God. But where is that verse that says Jesus is not God?
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:41 PM   #46
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If WL started a new Orthodox branch of Christianity, I could see limiting the discussion to orthodoxy, but he claimed to be recovering the true church. In the foundational church as presented in Acts and by Paul, you don’t have a Jesus is God gospel, nor a teaching about a 3 person god. How can we discuss recovery and WLs theological errors without stating the foundational church’s understanding of God and his Christ?
This site is called local church discussions. I doubt Untohim started this site thinking to provide a place for all those in the local church to have discussions ; it's obvious it was started to provide exLCer's to have a place for discussions.

With that in mind, all subjects about anything should be welcomed. ExLCers are a diverse crowd. But not all of them are welcomed. I'm not really welcomed, on the main forum. That's why AltVs was started. And I was made the moderator.

Before that I was booted I think a few times from LCD. I'm not a Baptist, LCer, or evangelical. And Untohim wants everyone that leaves the LC to be a evangelical.

And to be an evangelical means believing in the trinity, and that Jesus was God. And if you don't you don't belong on LCD.

Which is why my exLC friends aren't on LCD. All except bro Ohio ... and well Untohim, who's a different person on the phone.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:19 PM   #47
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BJB, I love those verses in Acts 17 which Paul spoke to the Athenians.

And yes, the eternal, only begotten Son of God is now, and will ever be a MAN! Yes, He is! I have repeatedly acknowledged this. There is no dispute here.

And yes, on this matter, contrary to your teachings, Acts and the Gospel of John exactly coincide: "For the Father does not judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." (John 5.22)

And yes, Jesus Christ is a man, now resurrected with a spiritual body. But where is that verse that says Jesus stopped being God when both He and the apostles clearly identified Him as a man?

And have you not also read Acts 20.28 where Paul exhorts the elders, "to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased through His own blood."

The glaring problem which you seem to have is that your mind can not comprehend how Jesus can be both God and man. You just need more faith. Yes, the N.T. does emphasize the humanity of the Son of God. But where is that verse that says Jesus is not God?
Ohio, I don’t know, but I suspect, that in your Christian walk you have never given consideration to Paul stating that there is but one God, the Father, and also suspect that you have never owned the admonition of Paul to the Ephesians to maintain the oneness of the Spirit be acknowledging one God and Father. This glaring problem is one I think you should answer publicly- Do you hold to Paul’s teaching that there is one God, the Father? Please give your explanation of such verse. Then we all can have a great discussion. I don’t know, but I suspect, you have already consulted your recovery version to see what WL said, and came up short of an explanation.
But you, yourself, how do you, if you do at all, relate to this what Paul wrote the Corinthians concerning one God, the Father? I contend that this was the mind of Paul throughout all of his writings. This is not a hidden teaching, Nor is it a cut and tape portions of scripture together to create a concept, no it is a direct clear concise teaching of Paul. How, pray tell, do you relate to it. I’ve been straightforward on my thoughts, it’s time you do the same.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:36 PM   #48
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And have you not also read Acts 20.28 where Paul exhorts the elders, "to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased through His own blood."

....But where is that verse that says Jesus is not God?
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Ohio, I donít know, but I suspect, that in your Christian walk you have never given consideration to Paul stating that there is but one God, the Father....Iíve been straightforward on my thoughts, itís time you do the same.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:14 PM   #49
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BJB, I love those verses in Acts 17 which Paul spoke to the Athenians.

And yes, the eternal, only begotten Son of God is now, and will ever be a MAN! Yes, He is! I have repeatedly acknowledged this. There is no dispute here.

And yes, on this matter, contrary to your teachings, Acts and the Gospel of John exactly coincide: "For the Father does not judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." (John 5.22)

And yes, Jesus Christ is a man, now resurrected with a spiritual body. But where is that verse that says Jesus stopped being God when both He and the apostles clearly identified Him as a man?

And have you not also read Acts 20.28 where Paul exhorts the elders, "to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased through His own blood."

The glaring problem which you seem to have is that your mind can not comprehend how Jesus can be both God and man. You just need more faith. Yes, the N.T. does emphasize the humanity of the Son of God. But where is that verse that says Jesus is not God?
The more I thought about this, your explanation of Acts 17 really illustrates what I wrote Untohim- you are in the 21st century looking back at what Paul spoke to the Athenians and amplifying the words of Paul using the trinitarian thought, and thus changing what Paul actually told them. Is it your thinking that the Athenian listeners would relate to what you are saying? Or that Paul had this whole god-man view, but just didnít explain it all? I mean, to you , et al, it seems that the gospel is that Jesus is God and God became a man; wouldnít Paul want to relate this truth in his speaking?
I see no indication that there was your understanding with the listeners, nor with the speaker, Paul. And this is the problem- if what you say is true, then the scriptures left out this BIG explanation that would have been necessary to convey such a gospel. And I have to say once again, that in making such a wild explanation, you treat the scriptures as lacking and the Nicene creed as ruling over the scriptures.

As far as ď with his own bloodĒ - I see no explanation by Paul anywhere that God has a body with blood. Christ did. Paul here was speaking to the Ephesian elders- read through Ephesians and tell me where he ever told them that God has blood or that Jesus is God. No, he told them Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and that there is one God, the Father. If you want to make a great extrapolation that this phrase means God has blood, as opposed to the blood of Christ, which is definitely spoken of throughout the NT, then, once again, you make the scriptures lack a grand explanation for your point of view. If there is a Jesus is God gospel, Paul did not preach it, and if there is a three person god, Paul must have lacked in this tremendous new teaching. The scripture does not leave us with either- itís really not good to speak such.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:41 PM   #50
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Hi Trapped, please feel free to add some commentary to your hearty laughter.
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:13 PM   #51
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As far as ďwith his own bloodĒ - I see no explanation by Paul anywhere that God has a body with blood. Christ did. Paul here was speaking to the Ephesian elders -- read through Ephesians and tell me where he ever told them that God has blood or that Jesus is God.
Here is part of the record of Paul's work in Ephesus from Acts 19:
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8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
A couple things to note. Paul must have ministered literally hundreds or thousands of messages in Ephesus, months in the synagogues and years in a school. I highly doubt that Paul's teachings were limited to the 6 chapters in his epistle to the Ephesians. In the synagogue his chief objective seems to be presenting the kingdom of God.

Paul went first to the Jews. That was his custom. He used the entire O.T. to persuade them that Jesus was their long awaited Messiah. That was his chief message to the Jews. I am quite sure that he used his vast study of the O.T. in these messages. Then to the Gentiles, Paul emphasized that God had raised the Man Jesus, who was crucified in Jerusalem, from the dead. Hundreds of people then saw this Jesus before He ascended to heaven. Then Paul himself saw Jesus.

It is Paul's letters to the Philippians and Colossians where he addresses the deity of Christ. I mentioned some of these verses, but you seem unable to grasp his thoughts.

I find it continually distasteful to see your standard practice of resorting to "W.Lee-ism" when responding to the scripture in my posts. Find me one post where I used Lee's teaching to rebut your errors, or kindly stop it!
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:53 PM   #52
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Here is part of the record of Paul's work in Ephesus from Acts 19:
A couple things to note. Paul must have ministered literally hundreds or thousands of messages in Ephesus, months in the synagogues and years in a school. I highly doubt that Paul's teachings were limited to the 6 chapters in his epistle to the Ephesians. In the synagogue his chief objective seems to be presenting the kingdom of God.

Paul went first to the Jews. That was his custom. He used the entire O.T. to persuade them that Jesus was their long awaited Messiah. That was his chief message to the Jews. I am quite sure that he used his vast study of the O.T. in these messages. Then to the Gentiles, Paul emphasized that God had raised the Man Jesus, who was crucified in Jerusalem, from the dead. Hundreds of people then saw this Jesus before He ascended to heaven. Then Paul himself saw Jesus.

It is Paul's letters to the Philippians and Colossians where he addresses the deity of Christ. I mentioned some of these verses, but you seem unable to grasp his thoughts.

I find it continually distasteful to see your standard practice of resorting to "W.Lee-ism" when responding to the scripture in my posts. Find me one post where I used Lee's teaching to rebut your errors, or kindly stop it!
Oh the irony ... let's divide over God. Now ain't that funnier than all get-out?

I blame Paul. He didn't have reporters, scribes maybe, that copied down his sermons. Witness Lee had that. So we have all his sermons written down. As a result we have way more info from Lee than we do from Paul.

So I'm disappointed in Paul. I would like to read all his sermons. Maybe he clarified his position on whether or not Jesus was God, and would also clarify whether or not God is a trinity.

Paul left us twisting in the wind, and fighting over these matters. Witness Lee left us way, way, way ... more more more.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:15 AM   #53
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To my friend Boxjobox

You keep insisting that we ignore 2,000+ years of church history. No church fathers. No councils. No creeds. No statements of faith. No nothing! We only have to go by the actual words that have been recorded in the biblical canon (accept for that pesky Gospel of John which you would like to disappear-)

Ok, let's go back to early first century in Jerusalem. No New Testament. No Messiah. No Gospel. No apostles. No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing.

And up walks this obscure Jewish Rabbi from some obscure, insignificant northern hamlet called Nazareth.

And he tells a group of Jewish people that "something greater than the temple is here". To the Jews at that time, and in that place, GOD, and ONLY GOD was greater than the temple.

Not satisfied? At that time, and in that place (Jerusalem) who was the only Being in the universe that was "Lord of the Sabbath"? Quickly now, remember no Gospel, No apostles, No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing. Who was the only Being who the Jews would consider to be the Lord of the Sabbath? To the Jews at that time, and in that place, God, and ONLY GOD was the Lord of the Sabbath.

There. Jesus clearly and strongly claimed to be God in Matthew, Mark and Luke. No apostles, no apostle Paul, no councils, no creeds...not even that pesky, misused and misunderstood, mysterious Gospel of John.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:29 AM   #54
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Here is part of the record of Paul's work in Ephesus from Acts 19:
A couple things to note. Paul must have ministered literally hundreds or thousands of messages in Ephesus, months in the synagogues and years in a school. I highly doubt that Paul's teachings were limited to the 6 chapters in his epistle to the Ephesians. In the synagogue his chief objective seems to be presenting the kingdom of God.

Paul went first to the Jews. That was his custom. He used the entire O.T. to persuade them that Jesus was their long awaited Messiah. That was his chief message to the Jews. I am quite sure that he used his vast study of the O.T. in these messages. Then to the Gentiles, Paul emphasized that God had raised the Man Jesus, who was crucified in Jerusalem, from the dead. Hundreds of people then saw this Jesus before He ascended to heaven. Then Paul himself saw Jesus.

It is Paul's letters to the Philippians and Colossians where he addresses the deity of Christ. I mentioned some of these verses, but you seem unable to grasp his thoughts.

I find it continually distasteful to see your standard practice of resorting to "W.Lee-ism" when responding to the scripture in my posts. Find me one post where I used Lee's teaching to rebut your errors, or kindly stop it!
Yikes, I guess Iím that brother that sins 70 x 7, so once again, I must beg your forgiveness and will in the future abstain from associating your posts with Lee-ism, unless it is overtly mentioned. What exactly are my errors you are rebutting? Maybe if you list them I should examine them.

It is not that I view Christ Jesus as just some random guy, or a throw-away model that God used and now we all can discard. No,no, no: Christ Jesus our Lord was the unique, son of God, sent to us specifically as the Christ, who came in the image of God, all the fullness of God dwelt in him bodily, as Peter spoke in his 1st gospel in Acts Jesus a man approved by God, whom God worked through, crucified, God raised from the dead, God exalted to His own right hand, God made this man both Lord and Christ. Colossians and Philippians confirm and strengthen this. Yet we are not called upon to make Jesus God, nor are we told that there are 3 persons in one God. If we would read through Col and Phil, we would see Paul give difference to the God and Father of Jesus and Jesus himself. The name of Jesus is above any man; this Jesus is above all, the firstborn of all creation,
yet Paul does not waiver in showing that the head of Christ is God. Paul portrays the one God and Father, even if showing the exalted position Christ has been GIVEN. And we are called to maintain that same profession- that there is one God, the Father. Why is this so difficult to confess and uphold? Almost 2 millennia of trinitarianism has morphed the truth of the gospel into a 3 people god, and Jesus into the preeminent god of those three! In the foundational church, this was not spoken, taught. In the foundational church God is God, and Christ is Christ.

Ohio, et all, lets hear how you accept and order your Christian lives by Pauls admonition to hold to one God, the Father.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:29 AM   #55
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To my friend Boxjobox

You keep insisting that we ignore 2,000+ years of church history. No church fathers. No councils. No creeds. No statements of faith. No nothing! We only have to go by the actual words that have been recorded in the biblical canon (accept for that pesky Gospel of John which you would like to disappear-)

Ok, let's go back to early first century in Jerusalem. No New Testament. No Messiah. No Gospel. No apostles. No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing.

And up walks this obscure Jewish Rabbi from some obscure, insignificant northern hamlet called Nazareth.

And he tells a group of Jewish people that "something greater than the temple is here". To the Jews at that time, and in that place, GOD, and ONLY GOD was greater than the temple.

Not satisfied? At that time, and in that place (Jerusalem) who was the only Being in the universe that was "Lord of the Sabbath"? Quickly now, remember no Gospel, No apostles, No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing. Who was the only Being who the Jews would consider to be the Lord of the Sabbath? To the Jews at that time, and in that place, God, and ONLY GOD was the Lord of the Sabbath.

There. Jesus clearly and strongly claimed to be God in Matthew, Mark and Luke. No apostles, no apostle Paul, no councils, no creeds...not even that pesky, misused and misunderstood, mysterious Gospel of John.
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And this is why the Jewish leaders plotted to kill Jesus. Not because He was a great man, a brilliant Rabbi, a miracle worker, a productive carpenter, neither an untrained Jew from Nazareth. They plotted to kill Jesus because He told them He was God!
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:10 AM   #56
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To my friend Boxjobox

You keep insisting that we ignore 2,000+ years of church history. No church fathers. No councils. No creeds. No statements of faith. No nothing! We only have to go by the actual words that have been recorded in the biblical canon (accept for that pesky Gospel of John which you would like to disappear-)

Ok, let's go back to early first century in Jerusalem. No New Testament. No Messiah. No Gospel. No apostles. No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing.

And up walks this obscure Jewish Rabbi from some obscure, insignificant northern hamlet called Nazareth.

And he tells a group of Jewish people that "something greater than the temple is here". To the Jews at that time, and in that place, GOD, and ONLY GOD was greater than the temple.

Not satisfied? At that time, and in that place (Jerusalem) who was the only Being in the universe that was "Lord of the Sabbath"? Quickly now, remember no Gospel, No apostles, No apostle Paul. No councils. No creeds. No nothing. Who was the only Being who the Jews would consider to be the Lord of the Sabbath? To the Jews at that time, and in that place, God, and ONLY GOD was the Lord of the Sabbath.

There. Jesus clearly and strongly claimed to be God in Matthew, Mark and Luke. No apostles, no apostle Paul, no councils, no creeds...not even that pesky, misused and misunderstood, mysterious Gospel of John.
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Iím not certain you see my argument clearly, Untohim, and therefore Throw me under the bus- I mean in the dungeon. If you look at many of my posts, which seem to bother you in the past that I quote so much scripture, I quote Johnís writings quite a bit. In fact, one of my favorite in presenting my case is John 17.3 where John, quoting Jesus praying to the Father refers to the Father as the only true God. You should be surprised that Jesus did not speak there of 3 people god, or equate himself with being the one true God.

Your presentation of Jesus as greater than the temple and Lord of the sabbath making him God, does not follow through in the gospels spoken in Acts, nor in what Paul tells us in 1 cor 15 is the gospel he preached, nor in Galatians. It seems that you are wrong in your assessment of Jesus, unless you want me to believe that the gospel is somehow short of this Jesus is God revelation. Your assessment does not jibe with the revelation Paul wants us to see in Ephesians. The revelation he speaks of there has no presentation of seeing Jesus as God nor of any 3 people God! In fact, Paul begs them to keep oneness by holding to one God, the Father. If Iím supposed to surmise from Jesus talk of him being greater than the temple and therefore God himself, then what about us being the temple of God, as Paul wants us to see in Ephesians.
Untohim, about 2 millennia of trinitarianism has all but wiped out Paulís admonition and has done nothing but sown myths, confusion, false speaking, and another gospel. Look at your main site on modalism/trinitarianism- is that a clear portrayal of truth? After 2k years, confusion and misunderstanding? And that vs. holding to one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. WL who thought he wasĒrecoveringĒ the church, planted his feet, not in the foundational church spoken by Paul, but in the 4th century creed which- in my humblest view, was the beginning of Babylon the Great Harlot, Jezebel at her finest hour- but that is just my meager thoughts on it. WL stood on the shoulders of the creed and then added his own twists and turns, when a true recovery would have brought us back to proclaiming Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus.
Untohim, stick up a banner proclaiming that this fellow Paul said there is but one God, the Father, and then the next day a banner that quotes that Jesus fellow proclaiming the Father as the one True God. I realize both Jesus and Paul would then be ceremonial cast into the dungeon with we unfortunates, and the great trinity could then be exalted with the chief person of the 3 people of God, which in this age of modern Christiandom seems to be Jesus!
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:33 AM   #57
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Oh the irony ... let's divide over God. Now ain't that funnier than all get-out?

I blame Paul. He didn't have reporters, scribes maybe, that copied down his sermons. Witness Lee had that. So we have all his sermons written down. As a result we have way more info from Lee than we do from Paul.

So I'm disappointed in Paul. I would like to read all his sermons. Maybe he clarified his position on whether or not Jesus was God, and would also clarify whether or not God is a trinity.

Paul left us twisting in the wind, and fighting over these matters. Witness Lee left us way, way, way ... more more more.
Seems to me that the modus operandi of modern christiandom is to view scripture as a trinity mystery novel, where they go from room to room looking for clues to prove their case. The outcome of the case is predetermined by the great creed, and all clues must support this foregoing conclusion. The reason for this method is because the principals in the novel did not speak plainly of Jesus as God, nor of the 3 people god, and did nothing to explain this- everything was done, as it were, in cryptic secret doubletalk and innuendos, which the wise investigators can pick up and spin together to create a finished case proving the great creed. It seems that in every generation, this creed must always be investigated and proven in the scriptures and investigators make large quantities of cash with great positions and austerity because of there abilities to solve the mystery. Thus, ongoing bible studies, messages, books, arguments, divisions over methods and tools and findings are the content of the modern faith. Most followers go along in somewhat silence and bewilderment and faithfully nod their heads at the investigators and their current investigations. ( if this sounds somewhat like the 2, 3rd chapters of Johns Revelation, itís probably just coincidence).
They always seem to stumble over clues that would disprove their creed, and those clues are what feed us little people like myself, who when I read one God, the Father in the good book, take it to mean just that.
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:36 AM   #58
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And this is why the Jewish leaders plotted to kill Jesus. Not because He was a great man, a brilliant Rabbi, a miracle worker, a productive carpenter, neither an untrained Jew from Nazareth. They plotted to kill Jesus because He told them He was God!
They killed Jesus because he was the Christ, the son of the Living God, and it was predetermined in Godís plan, his logos, that this would occur so that the death of this sinless man would atone for our sins, and we would be brought back to our Heavenly Father. Jesus was/is the lamb OF God
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:48 AM   #59
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So Boxy,

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. Why won't you answer this plain and simple question?

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE ONLY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE? Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. It's kind of embarrassing actually. Why are the Words of Jesus so hard for you to accept? There are many things Jesus said which were not "followed through" in Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. So what?

As for John, you are cherry picking. Again, kind of embarrassing for someone who says he's such a solo scriptura guy!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς[/B] [/B]
The Word was God, Boxy, the Word was God.
"My Lord and my God". -ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου

Maybe we can pray-read these clearly written verses in Greek!
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:59 PM   #60
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So Boxy,

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. Why won't you answer this plain and simple question?

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE ONLY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE? Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. It's kind of embarrassing actually. Why are the Words of Jesus so hard for you to accept? There are many things Jesus said which were not "followed through" in Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. So what?

As for John, you are cherry picking. Again, kind of embarrassing for someone who says he's such a solo scriptura guy!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς[/B] [/B]
The Word was God, Boxy, the Word was God.
"My Lord and my God". -ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου

Maybe we can pray-read these clearly written verses in Greek!
Dear Untohim, let’s not come unglued and start making up scenarios and arranging leading questions that don’t really follow the events, or you will convict the wrong guy.
Jesus said the son of man was lord of the sabbath- I’m taking Jesus at his word, not reading into it a bigger thing or trying to add or subtract- this was said in all three accounts- son of man.
In all three accounts also, he said there is one greater than the temple here. You know, if you read through Acts at the gospels spoken, such as to Cornelius and those with him, Peter said about Jesus that God was WITH him. That Jesus was a replacement for the old tabernacle and is greater than the old tabernacle, where the presence of God was in some fashion (however the Jews all understood that heaven was His throne, and you surly know that the resurrected Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD) I don’t see any equivocal understanding that Jesus was somehow seen by any to be God because of this- they sure didn’t preach that, which I’m sure would be extra extra important to be conveyed to unbelievers if this was the case!
But wait, The old John quotes- it is John who had Jesus say that the Father was the only true God- perhaps you would like to put up a banner with this quote of Jesus and then write a footnote explaining how it really is only partially true? As far as Thomas’ great revelation it is not substantiated anywhere else, and not preached- scripture seems to avoid further speaking of Thomas other that that he was included with the 12 on the day of Pentecost when Peter rose to speak the gospel and if you read that gospel it definitely would not put Jesus in the God category. Please note also that John states that the reason he wrote his gospel is that you may know that Jesus Is the Christ, the son of God and that believing, you may have life in his name- life defined by Jesus as knowing the Father the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. Years of trinity orthodoxy has you making up scriptural thought to justify the falsehood. I believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of God- why do you feel the need to expand the gospel to a Jesus is God, God is 3 people gospel. Remember- unto Him is unto the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Time to get those banners of one God, the Father flying on the main page.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:36 PM   #61
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They killed Jesus because he was the Christ, the son of the Living God, and it was predetermined in Godís plan, his logos, that this would occur so that the death of this sinless man would atone for our sins, and we would be brought back to our Heavenly Father. Jesus was/is the lamb OF God
Everything you said was true about Jesus, but you once again completely dodged the point.

John tells us in 5.18 that "the Jews sought to kill Him, not just because He broke the Sabbath, but called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Three times in John chapter 8 Jesus told the Jews He was "I AM," the same name Yahweh/Jehovah gave to Moses.

How do you explain that Jesus is not God when He is Yahweh/Jehovah? Are you now saying that God did not appear to Moses?
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:39 PM   #62
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BJB, answer me plainly. When was the beginning or origin of Jesus, the Son of God?
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:45 PM   #63
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Ok, thanks for the advise Boxy. I used gorilla glue so I got glued back together really fast.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who the Lord of the Sabbath was, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answering by changing the subject. It's not leading, it is probing, to see if you really know and believe the Words of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who though he was equal with God the Father, emptied himself and took on the likeness of human flesh.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who was the only being in the universe greater than the temple, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answer by changing the subject.

While keeping myself firmly clued in place, I'll ask you one more time. Do you believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ over your Unitarian/Arian teachers? It's not too late you know. You could repent and fall to your knees just like Thomas and proclaim "My Lord and my God!". Do you not believe that Thomas said those words? Are you like Witness Lee who picked and choosed what he was going to accept as God's Word and what he would explain away with the heretical teachings and understandings of men long ago proved to be heretical, false teachers.

May "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you".
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:42 PM   #64
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Are you like Witness Lee who picked and choosed what he was going to accept as God's Word and what he would explain away with the heretical teachings and understandings of men long ago proved to be heretical, false teachers.
I like this. Way to go moderator! Give BJB a taste of his own medicine.

I'm so tired of BJB dodging my questions from the scripture and accusing me of being infected with Lee-itis theology. Then BJB tells me to go read Acts again.
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:43 PM   #65
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So Boxy,

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. Why won't you answer this plain and simple question?

To a first century Jew, WHO WAS THE ONLY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE? Stop your dodging and weaving and shucking and jiving. It's kind of embarrassing actually. Why are the Words of Jesus so hard for you to accept? There are many things Jesus said which were not "followed through" in Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. So what?

As for John, you are cherry picking. Again, kind of embarrassing for someone who says he's such a solo scriptura guy!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς[/B] [/B]
The Word was God, Boxy, the Word was God.
"My Lord and my God". -ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου

Maybe we can pray-read these clearly written verses in Greek!
Aren't we having fun arguing over God? The reason I'm not convinced either way is because our witnesses don't agree. Of course we have the preamble in the last gospel, written at the end of the century, by only God knows who.

So we not only don't know who wrote it, but why, and to whom. And why he decided to use a word that was in common currency, amongst Jew and Gentile like.

Proof that it was in common currency, is how it was used in the NT, 330 times. Here's Strong's on it :

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Originally Posted by Strong's
G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 330
Then we have 3 other witnesses, also written anonymously :

Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk_18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Each witness had a chance to declare Jesus God, but didn't.

But I have to admit that the Jesus is God group look more cultish than the Jesus is not God group. I think that's because they have the RCC behind them.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:17 PM   #66
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Ok, thanks for the advise Boxy. I used gorilla glue so I got glued back together really fast.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who the Lord of the Sabbath was, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answering by changing the subject. It's not leading, it is probing, to see if you really know and believe the Words of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who though he was equal with God the Father, emptied himself and took on the likeness of human flesh.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who was the only being in the universe greater than the temple, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answer by changing the subject.

While keeping myself firmly clued in place, I'll ask you one more time. Do you believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ over your Unitarian/Arian teachers? It's not too late you know. You could repent and fall to your knees just like Thomas and proclaim "My Lord and my God!". Do you not believe that Thomas said those words? Are you like Witness Lee who picked and choosed what he was going to accept as God's Word and what he would explain away with the heretical teachings and understandings of men long ago proved to be heretical, false teachers.

May "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you".
-
Sorry, Untohim, I guess I misinterpreted what you were asking, or maybe why you would ask such a question of what I thought a 1st century Jew who the Lord of the Sabbath was, because , I really donít know what a 1st century Jew would think, but Iíll answer that I assume it would be Yahweh.
As far as one greater than the temple, Iím not sure what to say a 1st century Jew would think, because the history of the Jews includes the temple of Solomon being destroyed at one time, but I guess the answer you are looking for would be Yahweh. Is that what you wanted to hear? It might be better to establish your premise and point rather than walk me down some sort of questioning.

But why not take some tome to see all that Jesus said in that chapter in Matthew, lest you start stringing together thoughts from other scriptures and making a total different narrative. You should definitely note that Jesus said the son of man is lord of the sabbath. And 15-21 would have great significance along with 29 and 50.
In 21 Jesus quotes that in him ( the anointed one) the gentiles would trust. You know, the temple was supposed to be a house of prayer for all nations to draw to, but at the time of Jesus, it became a den of thieves, and money grabbers.

What you may want to consider yourself, was what would the average Jew think about declaring that Jesusi is God and that their God was 3 people. I would say that your average Jew would have a great problem with that, as well as gentiles, so tell me, Untohim, when was it preached to all these people that Jesus was God? And what was the general reaction to this, in Jerusalem, in the various synagogue. When was this preached, and were is all the teaching that would have had to be present to explain this extremely new change in concept? I donít see it in my scriptures. I see plenty to explain that Jesus is the Christ, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead, that he was given the highest position in Godís creation, that he is coming again, but I donít see the great teaching you profess occurring in the NT. You are setting up an impossible scenario to justify. Iím supposed to believe what you are saying based on what gospel? Sorry, itís based on the Nicene creed, not scripture. You overlay everything with this thought that Jesus is God and God is 3 people, but that would call for a massive explanation that doesnít exist in the book of acts, nor in the epistles of Paul, or in the epistles of John for that matter, unless you take the ďthere is 3 in heaven verse that seems to have general understanding that it is not really found in scripture.

And still, sitting in front of you who proclaim a trinity God is the Paul most definitely telling the Corinthians that there is one God, the Father. Here he is talking to both Jews and Gentiles and establishing that which is believed by the Jews and needs to be reinforced to the gentiles. Sorry brother, but your finding bits and pieces to justify something that never occurred- the preaching of a triune god, does not exist in the entire book of Acts, nor in the epistles of Paul. But What does exist is that Paul and Jesus both proclaime one God, the Father. If you have verses where Jesus is proclaiming a 3 person god, bring them out!
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:32 PM   #67
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Ok, thanks for the advise Boxy. I used gorilla glue so I got glued back together really fast.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who the Lord of the Sabbath was, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answering by changing the subject. It's not leading, it is probing, to see if you really know and believe the Words of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who though he was equal with God the Father, emptied himself and took on the likeness of human flesh.

In first century Jerusalem, if you asked a Jew who was the only being in the universe greater than the temple, what would be his answer? You never answer a straight question. You shuck, you jive, and try to wiggle out of answer by changing the subject.

While keeping myself firmly clued in place, I'll ask you one more time. Do you believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ over your Unitarian/Arian teachers? It's not too late you know. You could repent and fall to your knees just like Thomas and proclaim "My Lord and my God!". Do you not believe that Thomas said those words? Are you like Witness Lee who picked and choosed what he was going to accept as God's Word and what he would explain away with the heretical teachings and understandings of men long ago proved to be heretical, false teachers.

May "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you".
-
Concerning Thomas statement. There is this meeting that takes place only mentioned in the gospel of John where all the apostles are together except Thomas, and Jesus breaths into them. They tell Thomas about seeing Jesus and Thomas doubts- he is doubting that Jesus is alive, that God was able to raise him from the dead, or did actually raise him from the dead. Jeusu appears to Thomas who says my lLord and my God. This is not recorded in the other three gospels or mentioned anywhere else, and there is no gospel preached to give the impression that the disciples came to a new found belief that Jesus is God- look at what was spoken was spoken as the gospel throughout the book of Acts- not a peep. My assumption is that Thomas came to realize that he had doubted God, and God’s ability to raise Christ from the dead and doubted that Jesus was resurrected. And was now acknowledging both. I say this because this is the gospel that was preached in the foundational church, Jesus told Mary that he was ascending to “ my God and your God and my Father and your Father”, which is the viewpoint of speaking in Acts and the epistles and Revelation, so I would say you are taking something and turning it into something it was never met to portray. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who have not seen and believe. We believe through the gospel, and there is no gospel preached in the foundational church that reflects anything other than What Jesus proclaimed of “ my God and your God and my father and your Father.”
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:30 PM   #68
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Everything you said was true about Jesus, but you once again completely dodged the point.

John tells us in 5.18 that "the Jews sought to kill Him, not just because He broke the Sabbath, but called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Three times in John chapter 8 Jesus told the Jews He was "I AM," the same name Yahweh/Jehovah gave to Moses.

How do you explain that Jesus is not God when He is Yahweh/Jehovah? Are you now saying that God did not appear to Moses?
Ohio, in chapter 9.9 we have a blind man healed by Jesus say I Am, with the translators adding He, I Am He. It is the exact same phrase Jesus uses in chapter 8. I certainly would not draw a conclusion that the now seeing blind man was the great I Am, Yahweh. I think you must know that John was not written in Hebrew, but we observe it in Greek, and more than likely Jesus spoke Aramaic to the people in chapter 8. So to say that saying I am, and not adding the typical implied he, may lead you to think this is some great clue that you picked up, but it seems no one else made the assumption.
Please read through John Chapters 6 to 10, and you will see that the ongoing question is if Jesus is the messiah- Jesus says I Am He. As you read through those chapters look carefully how God is presented and how Jesus refers to God. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:39 PM   #69
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BJB, answer me plainly. When was the beginning or origin of Jesus, the Son of God?
Jesus was born- can’t give you an exact date, but in Bethlehem at the time of Caesars census. I guess you could also say at the time Mary conceived.
Luke 1. 31And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Wow, that holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Paul puts this teaching to be understood in Romans 1 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Paul’s description - well, you can read it.

Take special care, as you should in all your readings how God is used and how Christ Jesus is used.
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:47 PM   #70
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I like this. Way to go moderator! Give BJB a taste of his own medicine.

I'm so tired of BJB dodging my questions from the scripture and accusing me of being infected with Lee-itis theology. Then BJB tells me to go read Acts again.
I’m so tired of Ohio not stepping up to answer how he relates to Pauls admonition to keep the oneness by professing One God and Father. When, Ohio will you speak on this?

Untohim, you too should answer to this- are you trying to sow division by not proclaiming one God, the Father?
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:32 AM   #71
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Iím so tired of Ohio not stepping up to answer how he relates to Pauls admonition to keep the oneness by professing One God and Father. When, Ohio will you speak on this?

Untohim, you too should answer to this- are you trying to sow division by not proclaiming one God, the Father?
More games BJB? I have always professed One God and Father. And when I do, you play this game of linking me with WL and the "trinitarians."

Here is a verse for you BJB: John 8.28 Then Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM."

Jesus calls himself the Son of Man, yet when lifted up on the cross, He proclaims that we would then know He is the "I AM," a clear reference to the name given to Moses from the burning bush.

The veil in the temple was torn from the top to the bottom on the Passover, the earth was shaken, darkness covered the land, tombs were opened and many saints raised from the dead appeared to many in Jerusalem, and only the Centurion at the cross spoke what everyone else knew, that Jesus was "Truly the Son of God."

Just as Jesus had prophesied, when they lifted Him up on the cross, then they all knew that He is "I AM," the same Yahweh / Jehovah who delivered the children of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh on the exact same date of Passover.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:41 AM   #72
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Jesus was born- canít give you an exact date, but in Bethlehem at the time of Caesars census. I guess you could also say at the time Mary conceived.
Luke 1. 31And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Wow, that holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Paul puts this teaching to be understood in Romans 1 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Paulís description - well, you can read it.

Take special care, as you should in all your readings how God is used and how Christ Jesus is used.
How can the Son of God be "in the beginning" (John 1.1) and yet originate in Bethlehem ~2,020 years ago?

How can Jesus be born in Bethlehem of Mary and then Paul claims in Acts 13.33 that Jesus was begotten of God via the resurrection?
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:16 AM   #73
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Ohio, in chapter 9.9 we have a blind man healed by Jesus say I Am, with the translators adding He, I Am He. It is the exact same phrase Jesus uses in chapter 8. I certainly would not draw a conclusion that the now seeing blind man was the great I Am, Yahweh. I think you must know that John was not written in Hebrew, but we observe it in Greek, and more than likely Jesus spoke Aramaic to the people in chapter 8. So to say that saying I am, and not adding the typical implied he, may lead you to think this is some great clue that you picked up, but it seems no one else made the assumption.
Please read through John Chapters 6 to 10, and you will see that the ongoing question is if Jesus is the messiah- Jesus says I Am He. As you read through those chapters look carefully how God is presented and how Jesus refers to God. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
There is no equivalence here. And you know it.

Jesus said unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Just in case you missed it, Jesus again says, Before Abraham was, I AM.

How could Jesus be born of Mary, if He is the I AM before Abraham was even born?

Boxjobox, in order to accept your unending heresy, I must constantly remove whole sections of the Bible.
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:48 AM   #74
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More games BJB? I have always professed One God and Father. And when I do, you play this game of linking me with WL and the "trinitarians."

Here is a verse for you BJB: John 8.28 Then Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM."

Jesus calls himself the Son of Man, yet when lifted up on the cross, He proclaims that we would then know He is the "I AM," a clear reference to the name given to Moses from the burning bush.

The veil in the temple was torn from the top to the bottom on the Passover, the earth was shaken, darkness covered the land, tombs were opened and many saints raised from the dead appeared to many in Jerusalem, and only the Centurion at the cross spoke what everyone else knew, that Jesus was "Truly the Son of God."

Just as Jesus had prophesied, when they lifted Him up on the cross, then they all knew that He is "I AM," the same Yahweh / Jehovah who delivered the children of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh on the exact same date of Passover.
Ohio, since you profess one God the Father, what is the controversy? Sounds like we are on the same page. Now you should go to the main page, modalism/trinity site and let them know that trinitarianism, and Jesus is God thing does not follow the scripture, but causes division.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:22 AM   #75
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Ohio, since you profess one God the Father, what is the controversy? Sounds like we are on the same page. Now you should go to the main page, modalism/trinity site and let them know that trinitarianism, and Jesus is God thing does not follow the scripture, but causes division.
But ... as the scriptures tell me ... I also profess one God the Son.

The controversy and the division is that you deny the Son, and he who denies the Son, has not the Father either. (I John 2.23)

Most of us prefer to have the Father, and that's why we reject this Jehovah Witness heresy.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:32 AM   #76
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There is no equivalence here. And you know it.

Jesus said unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Just in case you missed it, Jesus again says, Before Abraham was, I AM.

How could Jesus be born of Mary, if He is the I AM before Abraham was even born?

Boxjobox, in order to accept your unending heresy, I must constantly remove whole sections of the Bible.
Equivalence in saying the same thing. The Jews asked the healed blind man if he was actually the one that was blind. He answers I am. The conversation between Jesus and the Jews rests on tell us plainly whether you are the Christ, the messiah, the anointed one. Jesus’ answers are according to this: I am, which is really I am he, if you follow the same for the healed blind man. That an Aramaic language put into Greek is somehow equivalent to Jesus saying I am Yahweh is a real stretch, but one used by the trinitarian persuasion to convince. To me, it’s kind of “ this is the best we can come up with” kind of thing, yet, when the apostles and disciples preach the gospel, they somehow don’t seem to include this important discovery? This turns the scripture into a farce. Those who were with Christ, especially Peter and John do not preach such in Acts. Paul, who was called to be an apostle does not preach this. Yet they all have the common thread of preaching that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God.
The church needs to return to the foundation that it was to be built upon, which is the revelation given from the God and Father of Jesus to Peter, when Jesus asked who do men say that I am. Jesus says he will build his church on that revelation. After the 4th century, the facade was then built on a Jesus is God, 3 person god, which was never spoken out by Jesus nor the apostles. It’s time to get a grasp on this, and get back to the foundational gospel that was blessed by God with the witness of the Holy Spirit.

After 2k years of staunch trinitarian thinking, I realize this is not easy to grasp, and sounds like it is upsetting to your belief system. I don’t think you ever read the scriptures and suddenly said wow God is triune! But rather, you were taught it, probably with people using the same snips of scripture and logic type questions like those you ask me and Untohim asks.
But if you look at the overall NT, you do not find that mentioned or taught. What you do find is the overwhelming presentation of God the Father and Jesus the Christ as Lord. That is the content of the NT church. Jesus himself in the favorite book used by the trins, gospel of John, Jesus says that famous line, I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the Father except through me. There is that I am again, and the direction is that we come to the Father, which is the NT practice. Jesus said God is spirit and those who worship HIM must worship in spirit and truth- for THE FATHER seeks such. Jesus told Mary, I go to my Father and your Father, my God and your God. This is how the NT is presented- that through the redemption work of Christ, we would come to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. The NT does not say Set Up Jesus as your God, God is 3 people.

John wrote the Revelation and right off says The revelation of Jesus Christ that GOD gave him. He then introduces Jesus as the one who was slain to make us a kingdom and priest to HIS GOD. Throughout Rev., it is God and the Lamb - very distinctly presented.

John has a peculiar way of writing things: I see no indication in the NT that we should draw the conclusions you are making. Basically, what you are saying is that a certain gospel was spoken throughout Acts and anointed by the Holy Spirit, that was then 50 years later altered by John and now all should be putting Jesus as God and worshipping a 3 in one God. Then all the rest of the NT must be tweaked through a massive teaching campaign to conform to that. I don’t buy that anymore. As I look at church history, the downfall was the 4th century “orthodox” stuff that turned the church into a mockery of the gospel and the NT. I would say an enemy has done this.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:35 AM   #77
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But ... as the scriptures tell me ... I also profess one God the Son.
Both Paul and Peter tell us this plainly:

2 Thess 1.12 "So that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ."

2 Peter 1.1 "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those allotted equally precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:46 AM   #78
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But ... as the scriptures tell me ... I also profess one God the Son.

The controversy and the division is that you deny the Son, and he who denies the Son, has not the Father either. (I John 2.23)

Most of us prefer to have the Father, and that's why we reject this Jehovah Witness heresy.
Ohio, there is no God the son in the NT.

I do not deny that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God.

Your rationale here is not correct.

And most important, I have no relation or affinity for ďJehovah Witness- that is a cult, actually very similar in design to the LSM church.

Ohio, Paul taught the Corinthians there is but One God, the Father. Why are you introducing a god the son? Your basic accusation seems to be that I donít buy into a 4th century trinitarian belief system and therefore am off kilter. Take a good look at what you are saying.
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:04 AM   #79
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Equivalence in saying the same thing. The Jews asked the healed blind man if he was actually the one that was blind. He answers I am. The conversation between Jesus and the Jews rests on tell us plainly whether you are the Christ, the messiah, the anointed one. Jesusí answers are according to this: I am, which is really I am he, if you follow the same for the healed blind man.
Boxjobox, you are not even making sense. John 8, following the situation of the woman caught in adultery, never mentions "the Christ, the messiah, the anointed one." You are reading this into the text. And you are reading out the actual words of the text.

Your continued lengthy replies do not change the truth of this Gospel of John. You conveniently like to alter scripture to suit your predisposed ideas, assuming that Jesus is answering some question that is not even asked. Read the context. Context matters.

Where is the verse in the chapter 8 discussion that says, "are you the Christ?" and Jesus answers "I am [he]?"

And how in the world does your crazy teaching explain 8.56-59?
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56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.Ē

57 So the Jews said to Him, ďYou are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?Ē

58 Jesus said to them, ďTruly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.Ē

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
The Jewish leaders in the Temple knew full well what Jesus just said. Sorry you missed it. Jesus just made Himself equal with God so they immediately picked up stones to kill Him (as also in v. 5.18).
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:11 AM   #80
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Both Paul and Peter tell us this plainly:

2 Thess 1.12 "So that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ."

2 Peter 1.1 "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those allotted equally precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
1Peter 1 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

Looks like Peter had a great revelation between his gospel preaching in Acts, his 1st epistle and his second- unless of course you realize that someone put the comma in the wrong place , thus altering the meaning. If it is really God, and savior Jesus Christ then it follows his first epistle and Peterís preaching in Acts and the NT.
2 Pet 1

16For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: ďThis is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Ē 18And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

2 Thes 1.12 comma issue again. What you are trying to say does not match what Paul writes in both Thes letters and would be total confusion.

1Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ohio, where is the massive teaching that would relate to the world that God is 3 people and that we are to make Jesus our God? It is NOt in the NT!
God is God, and Christ is Christ
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:30 AM   #81
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1Peter 1 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

Looks like Peter had a great revelation between his gospel preaching in Acts, his 1st epistle and his second- unless of course you realize that someone put the comma in the wrong place , thus altering the meaning. If it is really God, and savior Jesus Christ then it follows his first epistle and Peterís preaching in Acts and the NT.
2 Pet 1

16For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: ďThis is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Ē 18And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

2 Thes 1.12 comma issue again. What you are trying to say does not match what Paul writes in both Thes letters and would be total confusion.

1Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ohio, where is the massive teaching that would relate to the world that God is 3 people and that we are to make Jesus our God? It is NOt in the NT!
God is God, and Christ is Christ
The Greek NT text had no commas. It is you who is creating confusion.
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:33 AM   #82
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Ohio, there is no God the son in the NT.

I do not deny that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God.

Your rationale here is not correct.

And most important, I have no relation or affinity for ďJehovah Witness- that is a cult, actually very similar in design to the LSM church.

Ohio, Paul taught the Corinthians there is but One God, the Father. Why are you introducing a god the son? Your basic accusation seems to be that I donít buy into a 4th century trinitarian belief system and therefore am off kilter. Take a good look at what you are saying.
Why do you constantly ignore all the scriptures?

Why do you reject the opening of John's Gospel?

And there you go again -- avoiding the Bible, and bringing up the 4th century again. Have you no principles?
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:34 AM   #83
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Boxjobox, you are not even making sense. John 8, following the situation of the woman caught in adultery, never mentions "the Christ, the messiah, the anointed one." You are reading this into the text. And you are reading out the actual words of the text.

Your continued lengthy replies do not change the truth of this Gospel of John. You conveniently like to alter scripture to suit your predisposed ideas, assuming that Jesus is answering some question that is not even asked. Read the context. Context matters.

Where is the verse in the chapter 8 discussion that says, "are you the Christ?" and Jesus answers "I am [he]?"

And how in the world does your crazy teaching explain 8.56-59?
The Jewish leaders in the Temple knew full well what Jesus just said. Sorry you missed it. Jesus just made Himself equal with God so they immediately picked up stones to kill Him (as also in v. 5.18).
Ohio, as we know there were no chapters in Johns writings, and John strings events. As I asked yesterday, you need to read chaps 6 to 10 to get the whole context, and in this case particularly chapter 7. The entire dialogue that continues on is are you the Christ- tell us plainly. Seems you have the Jews knowing something about Jesus that his own disciples donít pick up. Read slowly through 6 to 10. You may want to consider 6: 68-69.
This reveals what the disciples thought of Jesus.
Ohio, the gospel was not preached by these Jews that questioned Jesus, but by the disciples of Christ. They do not preach a Jesus is God gospel

Here is part of Peterís 2nd gospel, probably spoken to the same Jews that questioned Jesus

Acts 3 13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the [b]Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
And 19Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22For Moses truly said to the fathers, ĎThe Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.í 24Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ĎAnd in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.í 26To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.Ē

I left out a lot for brevity,so if you doubt the meaning I would encourage yo to read the entire 3rd chapter of Acts, and all of Acts actually.
Do you see the vast difference between what Peter preached as the gospel to the Jews and what you are saying?
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:49 AM   #84
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Why do you constantly ignore all the scriptures?

Why do you reject the opening of John's Gospel?

And there you go again -- avoiding the Bible, and bringing up the 4th century again. Have you no principles?
Ohio, the issue at hand is trinity discussion, for me it is trinity discussion related to WL/LSM, and in the bigger picture the church and church history. I think my principles have been very consistent in saying and demonstrating that the foundational church did not present a 4th century dogma as the truth. This came in and damaged the church tremendously- I have been most consistent and adamant about this.

I have explained my view of John 1 elsewhere. The gospel does not match your understanding of it, nor do the epistles. I understand that that is a foundation in your belief system, and that you relate and project Jesus as your God. I have no doubt that you are sincere and think you are protecting a major truth. When I read Acts and the epistles, I do not see that as even a minor truth, but rather that the church is built upon the gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, who died for our sins, whom God raised from the dead and gave him the highest position in creation. I see no attempt to preach or teach that Jesus is God or that God is 3 people. To say that is our foundation and then to read Paulís excellent presentation of the gospel to the Romans, would leave Paulís writing worthless in building the church. Luke gives us a. Great history in Acts, which does not include the kind of gospel you are following. Galatians tells us of Paulís gospel, 1 Cor 15 tells us what Paul preached.

Trinitarianism changed the whole narrative of the NT.
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:54 AM   #85
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The Greek NT text had no commas. It is you who is creating confusion.
That was my main pit there- if you put in a comma at a certain place, you alter the meaning, it changes meaning depending on where one puts a nonexistent comma.
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Old 08-03-2020, 01:16 PM   #86
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That was my main pit there- if you put in a comma at a certain place, you alter the meaning, it changes meaning depending on where one puts a nonexistent comma.
More than that, there's evidence that the orthodoxy messed around with the Greek manuscripts.

John 8:1-11, for example, was an add in in later manuscripts. And I like "let him without sin cast the first stone." But just because I like it doesn't mean that it's an accurate authentic story about Jesus.

We become emotionally attach to these things, to these traditions passed down thru the ages. That, perchance is the case with Jesus is God, and three persons -- walking the earth, at the same time, all of them killed on the cross (silly ... I know ... sorry) -- and it hurts deeply when our heart is attached and entrenched in them, and they're threatened and denied.

That's why arguing with logic and reason is useless in changing minds.

Therefore, we need to argue using henosis, like is found in Ephesians 4:3 & 13. Then we might find a common ground, and whether or not Jesus is God or not, and the same with "him" being 3 persons, produces disunity.

Henosis produces unity, like Ephesians says. And I'm not even a fan of Ephesians - it's disputed that it's written by Paul. But I'm a fan of henosis, and it's the only book that uses henosis (evidence that it might not be by Paul).
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:12 AM   #87
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More than that, there's evidence that the orthodoxy messed around with the Greek manuscripts.

John 8:1-11, for example, was an add in in later manuscripts. And I like "let him without sin cast the first stone." But just because I like it doesn't mean that it's an accurate authentic story about Jesus.

We become emotionally attach to these things, to these traditions passed down thru the ages. That, perchance is the case with Jesus is God, and three persons -- walking the earth, at the same time, all of them killed on the cross (silly ... I know ... sorry) -- and it hurts deeply when our heart is attached and entrenched in them, and they're threatened and denied.

That's why arguing with logic and reason is useless in changing minds.

Therefore, we need to argue using henosis, like is found in Ephesians 4:3 & 13. Then we might find a common ground, and whether or not Jesus is God or not, and the same with "him" being 3 persons, produces disunity.

Henosis produces unity, like Ephesians says. And I'm not even a fan of Ephesians - it's disputed that it's written by Paul. But I'm a fan of henosis, and it's the only book that uses henosis (evidence that it might not be by Paul).
I’m not so sure arguing with logic lacks benefit. From experience, I would say the average person in the trin camp lives in the same type of environment we had in the LC-kind of a blind loyalty to a cause that constantly pumps up it’s agenda, constant indoctrination through songs, messages, peer pressure, danger to the soul if one strays, and demonizing any opposing view, and treating anyone who strays off the kool-aide as poisonous. When some little kid watching the parade shouts “ the emperor has no clothes” it shakes the foundation of belief. At once the defenders rise up with the usual illogical arguments of “what are you saying, kid, the emperor is wearing the finest robes ever made”. But at that point, some people have to stop and examine what is real and what is imaginary. If one spent their whole life in trinityville it’s not easy to even consider the alternative, because their entire perspective of all things God has been based on that narrative. For a little kid like me to shout out that no such belief system was held, spoken, taught in the foundational church in the NT is to expose a naked emperor. It’s easier to hide the head in the sand and say God is such a mystery we can never understand, and hold to the comfort of following the masses who practice trinitarianism than to examine and consider that it “ taint necessarily so”.
Your point about emotionally attached is most true- I think of that song He Walks With Me and He Talks With Me, and a lot of the modern Christian songs have this element of a Jesus love affair. What was that LC song Oh Who’s Like Our Jesus... We Love Thee OUr Jesus, We Love Thee Our God. Songs have a way of group think indoctrination, and who wants to argue with a love song.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:49 AM   #88
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So to reiterate my premise: we are supposed to be discussing Nťe Lee and the LC on this site. WL/LSM refers to what they established as the Lords Recovery, the recovery of the church. I would say that WL did an adequate job of recovering the basic principles of the local church, at least as a starting point that would need further refinement and consideration of practice as time went on. I really don’t see anyone who spoke and brought out so much from the scriptures the many elements of the church and the need to forget the old Christianity ways of meeting, denominationalism, etc, and come together as Christians in the city where one lived and meet as the church. As to how that would look in each city, based on the locality would need ongoing attention.
But, WL went a step- well a lot more than a step!, further and wanted to fill the church content with his own theology, which was a warped presentation of trinitarianism. My premise is that the foundational church had no such theology and in fact would view such as foreign to what was established by Paul. I see no gospels spoken that put Jesus as God nor any teaching that would invite the idea of a 3 people God. Au contraire , both Jesus and Paul speak of one God, the Father, and Paul, in no uncertain terms calls for this to be the profession. All of Paul’s writings follow this thought. So a recovery of the church should have recovered this foundational belief. Instead, WL stuck to his own interpretations of. 4th century trinitarianism, and alas, although an adequate understanding of the foundational “ground” of the local church was established, the content was anything but recovered. Hence, you now have this entrenched entity who claim to be “the church” meeting as the recovery, but in content are far from such— Such an anomaly! It is that anomaly that I think this whole site was set up to discuss. Unfortunately, the dear moderator of the main site does not want a discussion to venture into the notion that a recovery of the church must needs be a discussion of the belief and practices of the scriptural foundational church, but would rather limit the discussion to 4th century ideology. Thus I get removed from the main site and relegated to the alt, because I guess the moderator has abandoned the thought of the need for recovery and has opted for reformation.
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Old 08-04-2020, 04:09 PM   #89
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That was my main pit there- if you put in a comma at a certain place, you alter the meaning, it changes meaning depending on where one puts a nonexistent comma.
This conversation has no hope of some redeeming value. Unless UntoHim has something good to offer, I'm finished here.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM   #90
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This conversation has no hope of some redeeming value. Unless UntoHim has something good to offer, I'm finished here.
Don't you hope in Theophany? Jesus could come out here to declare that he's God, that the Father is sitting on HIS right hand, and that he's a trinity, sitting on the throne of heaven, all three squeezed tightly together.

I know that sounds silly. But not any more silly than Jesus was God, so the trinity died on the cross.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM   #91
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Don't you hope in Theophany? Jesus could come out here to declare that he's God, that the Father is sitting on HIS right hand, and that he's a trinity, sitting on the throne of heaven, all three squeezed tightly together.

I know that sounds silly. But not any more silly than Jesus was God, so the trinity died on the cross.
Awareness- you are shortchanging God. According to Johnís writing one of the members suddenly became 7 in Revelation, so mixed with the trinitarian philosophy God is actually a nonaune-9 in one, although Iím not sure if each of the expanded 7 are each a person; maybe the trins would have better insight in this important development. The other thing to notice is that I donít think the Holy Spirit actually gets to occupy a position on the throne- apparently there is either a space issue or a subservient situation going on. Not sure how that plays out in eternity, because the events seem to shift to a God and Lamb orchestra with the Spirit fading off stage. And then again it is God and the Lamb which seems like in language study would be two different people; one called God and the other Lamb, but the trins have a way of blending the two into one. We may be heading to an eternity with a diune situation- stay tuned!
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Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM   #92
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Why do you constantly ignore all the scriptures?

Why do you reject the opening of John's Gospel?

And there you go again -- avoiding the Bible, and bringing up the 4th century again. Have you no principles?
I donít reject the opening of Johnís gospel, I reject the interpretation that is made. If John was so interested in us all understanding that Jesus is God, and that God became a man, I think, because this would be such a drastic shift in peopleís understanding and relation to God, that he would have in the least summarized his gospel with such a definite statement. Saying the logos was with God and was God, and then saying the logos- the thought of God became flesh are to me, not saying God became flesh, but that Godís thought, plan, became real to man- the thought through which the entire universe was brought into substance, finally had the next step, the all important component to Gods idea, become tangible flesh.
To say God became flesh, would be a contradiction to the nature of God, it is not what the whole NT presents, it is not what is preached, not the gospel. A whole religion/ philosophy has arisen over this one chapter that differs from all else that is presented in the NT. This is why I say a recovery of the church should have been a recovery of the foundational church that we find in the NT. That foundational church was in no way built on a trinitarian doctrine. You know, in revelation there are two women, one are Gods people the other is Babylon the great, the mother of all the harlots. When I look at the foundational church as portrayed in the NT, it is built on the foundation of Jesus being the Christ, the son of the Living God. Christiandom since the 4th century with all its various divisions is built upon trinitarianism, which is not the foundation of the church. To not discuss this is foolish.
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Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM   #93
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To not discuss this is foolish.
No. It's Roman Catholic, Leeism, and Evangelicalism. Which I suppose is the same thing.
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