Pay Attention To What They Say "They Are Not"

[jesusislord]

I'm not trying to find fault in the lc purposely but base on my exp, you pay attention to their denial, you might able to find the truth on the flip side of their denial.

They said they are not a movement, but does that make them a unique move of God? think about it, the truth is they did started somewhere as a movement. They brand and package it nicely then they tell their members it's a calling from heaven.

They said they are not controlling the local churches, but did you see any lsm affiliated churches buy books from other group of christian? When a local church took a slightly different way or doesn't fit fully with the rest who listen to lsm, they cut the fellowship and bring up the concern of oneness.

They said there's no rules in the church, but they control what you read, even who you marry. some were told there are no overcomer outside of the lc and not to marry anyone outside of the lc. What a nonsense, did Paul ever told the saints you better don't marry with those who meet with Peter?

They said denomination is bad. But I'm seeing more and more fellowship among different denomination, they can work together for the sake of the gospel. Only lc have a strong wall to keep people within to think they are standing on the right ground. Think about it, in 500 yrs of reformation no one or no group is able to see they should be one church in one city, the revelation is given to watchman nee, isn't that strange? No, lc members can't use their brain that way, they said the leader taught this doctrine base on the bible. They just can't admit their interpretation is off and caused division.

They said don't fall into the realms of the mind, use your spirit. Your spirit somehow is not allowed to side the majority of the protestant christian, must side lc cuz their are following the ministry of the age, saw a much higher revelation of the Lord. The Lord is coming back! the church must be built! And we have a blueprint how the church is going to be built!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

They said don't fall into the realms of the mind, use your spirit. Your spirit somehow is not allowed to side the majority of the protestant christian, must side lc cuz their are following the ministry of the age, saw a much higher revelation of the Lord. The Lord is coming back! the church must be built! And we have a blueprint how the church is going to be built!

This particular saying in the local churches really rubs me the wrong way. The Bible NEVER says to get out of your mind. It says:

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. Romans 8:5

Be sober-minded... 1 Peter 5:8, 2 Timothy 4:5

And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'' Matthew 22:37

Absolutely nowhere are we commanded to get out of our mind. In fact, the saying in many languages "He's out of his mind" means someone is crazy. This kind of language, to get out of your mind, is also a classic marker of a cult, especially because the Bible never commands us to do so.

We can never get out of our mind. Even to pray requires that we use our mind. As mentioned on the Jo Casteel post by many respondees, this kind of phrase is a "thought stopping cliche" that forces people to not use their rational mind to reason about what is being said or done around them.

Galileo has a great quote: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use...."

God Himself has a mind. We were made in the image of God. We are made to use our minds. Not to get out of them. The second you start using your mind, though, is the second you start realizing that in the Local Churches you are surrounded by constant double-speak and hypocrisy. To survive in it, you have to get out of your mind. The leaders depend on it.

[Nell]

I have come to believe “get out of your mind” is just a way of telling someone to “shut up”, only it sounds “spiritual”. That is generally the end result ... conversation over. Either that or they “call on the Lord” at you.

Nell

[googlelight]

How about
If we are "out of our mind," as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. (2 Kor 5:13)?

I love this forum and the openness of discussion. Ministers like Paul had 5 talents. Maybe Spurgeon had 5 too, Darby and Nee also with 5? Who knows? (Of course they all had flaws). But on this forum, each one of us can provide our insight, and so in a sense, given my premises are correct, which is absolutely not for certain, 5 of us small potatoes, is a 5-talent. So the insight in the Bible, is like having Spurgeon here Oh well, I might be on unstable ground now. Just a thought

[aron]

Originally Posted by googlelight

Ministers like Paul had 5 talents. Maybe Spurgeon had 5 too, Darby and Nee also with 5? Who knows? (Of course they all had flaws).

Here's my take: we all have a talent, and need to use it, and gain return to the Master. That's a given. But it is entirely dependent upon what we've been given - to whom much is given, much is required, and to whom little is given, little is required.

And nobody really knows who has been given what, so do your best, and if there is a blessed reward at the end, you just say, "I did my best. God is merciful". See Luke 17:10 -- "So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"

But who is the 5-talented one, and who is lesser? We don't know. So judging one another, and even ourselves, at this juncture, is a waste of time.

Here's what we do know: the one who presumes 5 talents is in danger of being sent down.

Luke 14:7-11 When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Any who assume 5 talents (or promote others as 5-talented, as their own "ticket to the top") are in danger of being sent down in shame.

Certainly Lee wasn't 5-talented. Anyone who starts a motor home business with church member $$ that benefits his progeny has self-interest at work. Anyone who promotes his clearly unspiritual son - Lee admitted such - as Office Manager at LSM clearly is clouded by temporal needs. He is either a 1-talented or 2-talented person, pretending to be 5-talented, and those he convinced were devastated by this when it blew up, just as Lily Hsu listening to Watchman Nee confess.

We should never assume anything. Paul said, "I am the least of all the saints" and this is the only safe position. Any other position, on this side of the Bema, risks failure.

Originally Posted by googlelight

But on this forum, each one of us can provide our insight, and so in a sense, given my premises are correct, which is absolutely not for certain, 5 of us small potatoes, is a 5-talent. So the insight in the Bible, is like having Spurgeon here Oh well, I might be on unstable ground now. Just a thought

Yes - 5 separate 1-talented members together is a great thing! 3 different places in Proverbs affirm this. "In many counselors is safety" ~Proverbs 11:14; 15:22; 24:6. If God repeats something 3 times you should probably pay special attention!

[aron]

More on the talents, then I'll tie it back to the OP.

It may seem disrespectful, even blasphemous, to say that Witness Lee wasn't a "5-talented one". I mean the guy wrote 274 books, right? He got read into the Congressional Register! Look at his mausoleum! The reflecting pool! Clearly a "spiritual giant" or a "global Christian leader" or whatever comparative verbiage you choose. How can anyone say that he wasn't 5-talented?!?

Again, he also set up a for-profit business with the money from church members, which business immediately profited his next-of-kin (Timothy Lee). Doesn't matter that the business went belly-up, and SEC regulations were skirted, according to insiders who were privy (Terry Risenhoover and Don Hardy). Doesn't matter if they were kiting checks from local assemblies, etc. The very fact that such affairs were even started, irrespective of how they ended, shows us that the "minister" in question was presumptuous, greedy, selfish, and staking a claim in the Body of Christ for which there was no place.

Second, the other son, Philip, who pretty much all observers said was not a spiritual person, was placed in charge of the LSM office. Even before repeated situations of molesting office help were discovered, and affected families were relocated and indignant elders were smeared and pilloried in the church, the very fact that WL set up unqualified family members to benefit from his church position shows us that his church position was wrong. Paul said, "Avoid every appearance of evil" in 1 Thess 5, and this was violated with Daystar, with Philip Lee, with many other cases. There is a pattern here.

Whether there is a one-talented member assuming a two-talented slot, or a two-talented member gunning for a five-talented slot, is only a degree of ruin. Either way there is damage to members of the captive assembly pulled into the scheme.

Now, to the OP: what happens when Christians assume positions that God hasn't given? You see stuff that is so obviously wrong, but they're blinded by pride and don't get it. Somehow they've become so special that rules simply don't apply. So they judge, but skirt the same judgment.

In the Taiwan training of the late-80s New Way, when who-reports-to-whom was told to the stunned trainees, and one answered, "But that's a hierarchy!", the reply was, "When others do it, it's a hierarchy, but when we do it, it's not a hierarchy". Just like that, the Special Elect Christians under God's Special Elect Vessel exempted themselves from drab constraints, which they still put on others.

To wit:

Christianity is "Babylon" whilst we're "The Bride of Christ".
Our members all function, whilst those of Christianity have their function nullified by the clergy/laity system. (Now let's all stand up and recite bullet points from the outline)
Others have seminaries, whilst we have full-time trainings.
Others are in division, we're on the proper ground, in oneness. (Says who? Well, we do, of course.)
There's only "one vision per age". (Says who? Our "oracle", who has the vision of the age. Natch)
Others have clergy, we have "full-time serving ones".
We don't control anyone, but rather we have "restrictions".
We don't tell anyone what to do, but please don't move or act without "fellowship".

And so on. We could list more things where LC speakers condemn and judge whilst simultaneously re-branding themselves to avoid the same fate. It's word games, with what's "proper" and "genuine" being what the LC church does, and any other getting panned as declasse.

The very fact that Witness Lee got away with Daystar, and Philip Lee as the Office, and so many other outrageous moves, shows us that he'd convinced others of that which he himself believed, that he was God's Man of the Hour, Today's Paul, Today's Moses. Somehow normal assessments of right and wrong didn't apply to him, and adherents to his warped views of self also got some special provenance to do the very things they condemned others for.

[Sons to Glory!]

My responses below to the bolded headings.

Originally Posted by jesusislord

I'm not trying to find fault in the lc purposely but base on my exp, you pay attention to their denial, you might able to find the truth on the flip side of their denial.

They said they are not a movement, but does that make them a unique move of God? think about it, the truth is they did started somewhere as a movement. They brand and package it nicely then they tell their members it's a calling from heaven. Hmmm, not sure how to respond here. My opinion is it is now 100% a movement promoted by men. Maybe not at the beginning, but now it appears man driven. >>Jesus said you will know them by their love, and Witness Lee himself said they were lacking love at the end of his life. So what does that make it? If it was from heaven, wouldn't it be displaying God's love? I think so.

They said they are not controlling the local churches, but did you see any lsm affiliated churches buy books from other group of christian? When a local church took a slightly different way or doesn't fit fully with the rest who listen to lsm, they cut the fellowship and bring up the concern of oneness. So what would happen if a locality started going in their own direction? What it they decided to bring in another ministry? What if they significantly reduced purchases from LSM? What if they started highlighting the fact that Witness Lee said (in 1997 near his death) that the ministry was devoid of love and that other Christians should be met with more acceptance?

They said there's no rules in the church, but they control what you read, even who you marry. some were told there are no overcomer outside of the lc and not to marry anyone outside of the lc. What a nonsense, did Paul ever told the saints you better don't marry with those who meet with Peter? Is this because there is no set of "rules" in writing? (and see the items I listed in the question above - are there not unwritten rules about those things?)

They said denomination is bad. But I'm seeing more and more fellowship among different denomination, they can work together for the sake of the gospel. Only lc have a strong wall to keep people within to think they are standing on the right ground. Think about it, in 500 yrs of reformation no one or no group is able to see they should be one church in one city, the revelation is given to watchman nee, isn't that strange? No, lc members can't use their brain that way, they said the leader taught this doctrine base on the bible. They just can't admit their interpretation is off and caused division. This would appear to be the case. For a group proclaiming that they are the epitome of oneness, the practice sure seems to me to be the opposite . . .

They said don't fall into the realms of the mind, use your spirit. Your spirit somehow is not allowed to side the majority of the protestant christian, must side lc cuz their are following the ministry of the age, saw a much higher revelation of the Lord. The Lord is coming back! the church must be built! And we have a blueprint how the church is going to be built! Yes, Christendom has not done a good job of focusing on the Anointing Spirit's work in the believer, and therefore most Christian ministries have much emphasis on what the individual should do . . . so this is a person's soul and mind which results in fleshly workings. The LC tends to go to the other extreme and say the mind shouldn't be any part of the equation. But Paul says, "your whole spirit and soul and body" does he not? The mind was created by God as an important faculty. It's much more scriptural to say, "Put off the old man" than it is to say, "Get out of your mind!"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This particular saying in the local churches really rubs me the wrong way. The Bible NEVER says to get out of your mind. It says:

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. Romans 8:5

Be sober-minded... 1 Peter 5:8, 2 Timothy 4:5

And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'' Matthew 22:37

Absolutely nowhere are we commanded to get out of our mind. In fact, the saying in many languages "He's out of his mind" means someone is crazy. This kind of language, to get out of your mind, is also a classic marker of a cult, especially because the Bible never commands us to do so.

We can never get out of our mind. Even to pray requires that we use our mind. As mentioned on the Jo Casteel post by many respondees, this kind of phrase is a "thought stopping cliche" that forces people to not use their rational mind to reason about what is being said or done around them.

Galileo has a great quote: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use...."

God Himself has a mind. We were made in the image of God. We are made to use our minds. Not to get out of them. The second you start using your mind, though, is the second you start realizing that in the Local Churches you are surrounded by constant double-speak and hypocrisy. To survive in it, you have to get out of your mind. The leaders depend on it.

I agree with you Trapped, to survive in the Local Churches you have to get out of your mind. Otherwise concerns will multiply. You see the hypocrisy. Focus on scripture and you see a glaring problem with Local Church practices.
What does a closed mind do?

You have closed their minds to understanding; therefore you will not let them triumph. Job 17:4

A closed mind is closed to understanding. Without understanding, I firmly believe it affects the heart. It affects the ability to have compassion.

So I turned my mind to understand, to investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly.
Ecclesiastes 7:25

Originally Posted by Trapped

…..Absolutely nowhere are we commanded to get out of our mind. In fact, the saying in many languages "He's out of his mind" means someone is crazy. This kind of language, to get out of your mind, is also a classic marker of a cult, especially because the Bible never commands us to do so……

Since I saw some quotes from this Memorial Day conference by the local church, which is on the book of Philippians, I couldn’t help but state some things that you will not hear during its duration. It’s pretty ordinary for the members of this group to invoke these very spiritual vocabulary that runs and flows of their lips, but to help understand what it truly means in the context of the their teachings, I’ll just make a few suggestions that are unspoken, but heavily emphasized in a daily lives of its membership. It’s verses from Philippians chapter 2 that are quoted below:

- Having fellowship of the Spirit - means to be daily exposed to the writings of the local church scribes and founders.

- Having one mind - means to be indoctrinated with the “ministry” of the scribes and founders.

- Being in one accord - means to give themselves over to the people that run this recovery center.

- Having the same love - means love those who have totally bought in to the visions of local church founders.

- Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory - degrade all who oppose this visions and ministry as some special current day’s God’s dispensation, and claim that all those who say anything are seeking their own glory!

- But in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves - this does not apply to anyone outside this group, since there haven’t been anyone that is better that their apostolic founders who are second comings of the Apostle Paul.

- Look not every man on his own things - give everything over to the “Gods delegated authority” which includes: your mind, your personal life, your marriage, your children, your holidays, your whole person as in who you are, and allow them to run your life for you.

- But every man also on the things of others - take as much as possible from the people in the movement, such as money, time, relationships, discourage relationships but favor church life.

- Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus - since your mind is totally and utterly incapable of anything, let the “ministry” be your personal guide for all your practices and questions. Please read 500 life studies and it will change your mind and life forever.

- Holding forth the word of life - spend time daily, and the more the better, on reading the ministry issued “Holy Word for Morning Revival”, which is full of life and spiritual advice that you cannot find anywhere on the planet earth. Please get our Bible, it’s full of nuggets of life, processed spiritual food for your consummated spirit.

- For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state - just as Paul said, your natural men won’t care for your spiritual state, therefore unless you allow these currently appointed men by “God” to take care of you, you will most likely suffer greatly and could possibly die spiritually. Nowhere but in the “church life”, you will be saved and nurtured, cared and loved. It will even replace your whole family, your loved ones, your mother and father, your whole ecosystem. It’s very organic, not understood by most carnal Christian people outside of our institution.


With love,
Your caretakers in the present age.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

They said don't fall into the realms of the mind, use your spirit. Your spirit somehow is not allowed to side the majority of the protestant christian, must side lc cuz their are following the ministry of the age, saw a much higher revelation of the Lord. The Lord is coming back! the church must be built! And we have a blueprint how the church is going to be built!

Where does it say in the Bible to get out of your mind? Just one verse please?
I can present much scripture on setting your mind.

Daniel 10:12
Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.

Colossians 3:2
Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.