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Old 09-27-2019, 06:05 PM   #1
Kyle Yoakum
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Default Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:

“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.

God is in His oracle spoken, in His messenger. Not a king from Bethlehem, but a Nazarite from Nazareth, Jesus came, an old Chinaman came speaking to you in an accent. Not what you listen to, but who you listen to. You listen to God in His oracle.

This is the top Christian country, full of Christian books, 50,000 Christian book stores selling Christian books. Hundreds of pastors speaking every Sunday morning. Have you ever heard the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit? Have you ever had a book telling you this?
I am a little proud.

Some condemn door-knocking saying, ‘Let us come back to the enjoyment of Christ.’ I said, ‘Enjoy Christ’ is not American English. Experience Christ, exhibit Christ, this is Chinese English brought over across the Pacific. Out of his mouth you learned this term. I am a little proud.

You don’t know. I know. I know. I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee!
The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. Does this mean you listen to man? No. You listen to our dear God in His oracle spoken by a man in poor English.

…the dispensing of the processed Triune God into the transformed tripartite man. Isn’t this wonderful? I would dance. This is passed on to you all through me. All of you have to give me the credit. It is Lee who gave you this!….
The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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"It is Lee who gave you this!…. The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"
Hoo boy!
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this?
Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee! The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it?
Wow. Okay. I assume from reading this the original speaker, Lee, feels we should worship him. I'll take a hard pass, thanks anyway. And I have read this. Verbatim, in scripture.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum View Post
“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.
Why should I buy any of this?
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

Thanks Kyle Yoakum for your account.

Here is what John Ingalls recorded from that pathetic conference. (Emphasis in bold is mine.)

As the scriptures have said, "by two witnesses every word is established." (2 Corinthians 13.1)

CONFERENCE AND ELDERS’ MEETING IN PASADENA
November 1988

On the Thanksgiving Day weekend of November 1988 Brother Lee, just returned from Taiwan, held a conference of five meetings in the auditorium of the Pasadena City College in California. The conference was followed by an elders’ meeting November 27th in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel. In that meeting Brother Lee proclaimed that though he had a hall in Anaheim, he was not happy to use it (no doubt because of certain people who were in Anaheim). The brothers in the Los Angeles area invited him to have a conference and arranged the place in Pasadena. He said that when he heard that it would be in Pasadena he was happy. These people, he said, "exalt" me: I am happy to be exalted.

Before the conference began a report came to us that a flyer had been printed and would be placed on the windshields of all the cars of those attending the conference in Pasadena. On the flyer, we were told, some sinful disorders were mentioned. We fully disapproved of such action. Not knowing who authorized or printed them or who intended to distribute them, but knowing a couple of brothers who we thought might be aware of it, we called them and urged them to do whatever they could to stop the distribution. It seems that our word was heeded, at least to some extent, for no flyers were distributed at the conference. We discovered later, however, that they were put on some cars in the Anaheim meeting hall parking lot. Such acts we believe to be of the flesh and not the way to protest wrongdoing. Some time later, after the conference, we obtained a copy of the flyer. It was entitled Significant Dates in the History of the Church in Anaheim.

In the first meeting of the conference, November 25th, Brother Lee was in a fighting spirit, fighting against "autonomy" and "federation." He referred to some books authored by George Henry Lang, a servant of the Lord in England during the latter part of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. In one of his books, entitled The Churches of God, Lang emphasized the need for local administration in the churches. This was the book that troubled Brother Lee. (I had read this book, and being deeply impressed with its strong scriptural basis and timely application to our present need, I had recommended it to others.) Brother Lee called Lang’s book heretical and told the saints if they had them to burn them. I consider this kind of talk reckless and lawless. Brother Lee in years past had commended Lang for his insight and writing on the truth of the kingdom. His books have been recently reprinted and are available today.

In the conference meetings he strongly vindicated himself and his work. He gave a message in which he recounted a number of revelations brought forth by him which he said no one else besides the Bible authors had ever seen. Regarding the enjoying of Christ he said, "I invented this term, enjoying Christ." He continued, "I invented this term, experiencing Christ, exhibiting Christ." I believe a number of saints could testify that they heard of enjoying Christ or enjoying the Lord long before Brother Lee ever came to the United States. I for one did. My step-mother, seeking to help me, spoke to me of this in 1949. No doubt she heard this from other Christian teachers. The term, experiencing Christ, has also been spoken by other Christian teachers for years. Brother Lee did not invent that term. He mentioned many other items, claiming that they had all been revealed to him in the past twenty or so years; no one else had ever seen or spoken of them.

He referred to the title he has used for the Holy Spirit – "the all-inclusive Spirit of Christ as the consummation of the processed Triune God" – and asked who made such a title. Webster? he asked. Then he answered his own question, "That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me." A little later in his message he said, "Going with God’s oracle, surely there is the deputy authority of God in this oracle. Whoever speaks for God, he surely has certain divine authority. I’m claiming this for Lee!"

Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Following his message he asked for testimonies to be given by brothers from five countries: Brazil, the Philippines, Korea, Taiwan, and the United States. All these told of the success of the new way in their place, especially giving statistics regarding the number of churches and new ones baptized. The Lord along knows the real situation. If there is any real blessing from Him we rejoice and give thanks.

In the elders’ meeting following the conference Brother Lee read from a list of items, mentioning what he said were the top ten revelations received by him, seen previously by no one else. Some of them were as follows:
1. "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
2. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).
3. Prayreading.
4. Calling on the name of the Lord.
5. The seven Spirits.
6. The dispensing of the processed Triune God into the tripartite man.
7. The New Jerusalem as a corporate man.
8. The lampstand as the embodiment of the Triune God.

Now we thank God for these revelations from His holy Word, but to claim that he was the first one to see these is going altogether too far. Moreover, concerning at least a number of these items, Brother Lee was in fact not the first to see them. Regarding the last Adam becoming a life-giving Spirit and our being one spirit with the Lord, there were a number of other Christian teachers who saw and wrote of these things. We have evidence of this. Concerning prayreading, many have seen this and practiced this, as recorded in the book authored by Ray Graver and published by the LSM entitled, "Lord…Thou Saidst." Calling on the name of the Lord was not a recent discovery by Brother Lee or by us. The New Jerusalem as a corporate person was also seen by others—T. Austin-Sparks for one. If we have time or if there is the need, we may document all these instances.

The revelations mentioned are indeed great and precious. Fairly speaking, some of these matters may have been fresh revelations to Brother Lee. The Lord alone knows. And some of them he may have enunciated more clearly than his predecessors. But for anyone to claim that no one had ever seen these things before, but him, is totally insupportable, since we are not omniscient. Moreover, such self-vindication is very unbecoming and repugnant.

Brother Lee went on to say, "You cannot deny the fact that the Lord’s oracle has been with me. I claim this at the face of Jesus Christ. The deputy authority of God is in His oracle; so whoever speaks for God has His deputy authority. But I never used it."

In the elders’ meeting, Brother Lee referred to some anonymous papers being circulated and blamed the elders in Anaheim for not stopping the distribution. He then referred to the flyer which had been printed and was to be put on the windshields of the cars at the conference. I then rose from my seat and said that we wanted Brother Lee and all the brothers to know that we fully disapproved of that action and had done whatever we could to stop it. Brother Lee took the opportunity then, while I was on my feet, to question me publicly about a few things. He asked me about an anonymous writing entitled Reconsidering Our Vision. (which had troubled him greatly) and if we had done anything to stop its circulation. I said that we had not.

Regarding some brothers, probably including me (or, especially me), Brother Lee said, Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you. He said further, Which church is under my hand? You have a church; I have none. I know which church welcomes me, and which has a cold heart toward me.

Near the end of his word he proclaimed, I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care. I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth.

When he sat down and asked for fellowship, a brother from Anaheim, Paul Kerr, rose toward the end of the time and asked two questions. The first consisted of two queries: Why have other brothers besides you not been raised up? And, Why do you have no contemporaries to challenge you and fellowship with you? Brother Lee’s answer was simply, "I don’t know." And then he said that since 1945 he has been watching to see if anyone else could speak God’s word as God’s oracle. He could find none. Paul Kerr’s next question concerned John So and John Ingalls. He asked, "How is it that in the past you referred to these two brothers as pillars and today’s Timothy, and today you have nothing good to say about them? Brother Lee’s reply was that brothers can change. Demas loved the Lord, but then he changed and loved the world. I can change, he said; we all can change. So we all need the Lord’s mercy.

Brother Lee was beside himself in this meeting. I had never personally observed him in such a state as I witnessed him there. He was obviously exceedingly agitated. That was the last elders’ meeting with Brother Lee that I ever attended.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.
LSM has a long history of hiding Lee's outrageous side from public view.

Nigel Tomes, former co-worker in the Recovery and now a teaching elder in Toronto, ON, Canada, wrote a lengthy paper on LSM's practice of doing this to protect their "master" from scrutiny.

Witness Lee Sanitized - LSM's Life-Study Radio Broadcast Examined
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Old 09-28-2019, 12:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

Ohio quotes John Ingalls, who quotes Witness Lee :

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"Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all."
Narcissists and megalomaniacs are often the leaders of cults.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

Wow - I just PRAISE GOD that He got us fully out of that system in 1988!

We can't take credit as we had no idea what was really going on, but God did! He just loves us . . .
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:49 PM   #10
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Wow - I just PRAISE GOD that He got us fully out of that system in 1988!
And I praise God he got me out 8 years prior.
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Narcissists and megalomaniacs are often the leaders of cults.
All heretical teachings are not created equal. This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY, whether used by the Pope or a seriously fervent Christian minister like Witness Lee, is so dangerous. Why? Because power corrupts the man, and don't be fooled about it, but these teachings about "deputy authority" are all about power.

Think about how the Lord taught the disciples while He was here on earth. Some wanted to be first in the kingdom of God. But Jesus spoke about servant leadership. He taught us never to rule like the Gentiles. There were reasons why He stressed this so much. Leaders should never lord it over others.

This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY ruined Brother Lee. It was on full display in that Rosemead Conference. Power corrupts and Lee wanted absolute power in the Recovery. Philip Lee was also corrupted by power. Philip was reckless, sinful, abusive, and reprobate. Why would his Dad put him in charge Knowing he had molested other sisters? Because power also makes us paranoid. Such power is the enemy of God. Look at how it damaged so many saints. Look what it did to Witness Lee!
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Old 09-28-2019, 05:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

Yes, I agree that the whole "deputy authority" thing is probably up there in terms of damaging potential. Because of it anything spoken carries extra weight, whether it is biblically based or not. And it certainly lends itself to a stronger, centralized command and control.

In the end, it's just another way for pride to manifest through the flesh. Jesus avoided all of this, even though He had much to grasp onto, He didn't and He didn't flaunt it.
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:21 PM   #13
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All heretical teachings are not created equal. This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY, whether used by the Pope or a seriously fervent Christian minister like Witness Lee, is so dangerous. Why? Because power corrupts the man, and don't be fooled about it, but these teachings about "deputy authority" are all about power.
Lee came to America already corrupted by power. I spotted it back in the late 70s. I have Mel Porter to thank for that. He was a elder blinded by zealotry for Lee. He had zero spiritual qualities. Lee selected him as lead elder just and only because of his blind loyalty, too the already corrupted by power Lee.

God complexes go back to Caesar's and Pharaoh's ... and prolly back to primitive shaman days. Even those holding to The Great Spirit -- like the first-nation people here in America -- some of them had a human leader that represented and both spoke for the great spirit, and carried its authority.

Lee was nothing new.
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Old 09-29-2019, 08:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Originally Posted by Witness Lee as quoted by Kyle Yoakum View Post
I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee! The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"
Special thanks to Kyle Yoakum for posting these personal notes. Not surprisingly, they match very closely to what John Ingalls published in Speaking the Truth in Love. I was shocked to the core when word got out about Witness Lee's ranting, raving and unseemly boasting in this meeting. The abject truth really hit me hard. How could a man that I admired and honored so much utter such things? It took me quite a while to admit to myself that this must of been in this man's heart all along. The words of our Lord suddenly landed on me like a ton of bricks..."For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Matt 12:34)

Like so many others, the spell of Witness Lee had been broken. I still resisted and still hung on for a number of years, mostly for my close relatives who would not, or could not, see the truth right before us. It was too painful, and it was too costly to see the truth. To this very day, for many dear brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, it is still too painful, and it is still too costly. And the simple truth is that it is not getting any less painful. It is not getting any less costly. May God have mercy.
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Old 09-30-2019, 07:51 AM   #15
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

"The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus, Matt 23:11-12



"These people exalt me. I am happy to be exalted."

Witness Lee, Nov 1988
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Old 09-30-2019, 07:58 AM   #16
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"The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus, Matt 23:11-12


"These people exalt me. I am happy to be exalted."

Witness Lee, Nov 1988
Lee's arrogance and pride caused him to forsake the righteousness of God when he covered up his son Philip's immorality, and then went further to smear the reputations of all those who decided to take a stand for the righteousness of God when they protected the saints as real shepherd elders.
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

I don't have any notes but can testify my 2 cents that I heard WL many times say the same kind of things, paraphrasing: "I invented these terms", "nobody else has this", "nobody else has seen this", "I should get the credit for this". Usually coupled with "poor, poor christianity".
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:43 AM   #18
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I don't have any notes but can testify my 2 cents that I heard WL many times say the same kind of things, paraphrasing: "I invented these terms", "nobody else has this", "nobody else has seen this", "I should get the credit for this". Usually coupled with "poor, poor christianity".
My wife went to that horrible Pasadena conference because she could not believe that John Ingalls was capable of a global conspiracy to take down the ministry of Witness Lee. She was right.

She should have gone with her initial "gut feeling" which corresponded with the actual events. None of the facts of what happened were mentioned at the conference.

Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:37 AM   #19
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Near the end of his word he proclaimed, "I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care. I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth."
The way things are going in the Local Church, Witness my get his wish in the near future.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:47 AM   #20
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My wife went to that horrible Pasadena conference because she could not believe that John Ingalls was capable of a global conspiracy to take down the ministry of Witness Lee. She was right.

She should have gone with her initial "gut feeling" which corresponded with the actual events. None of the facts of what happened were mentioned at the conference.

Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.
I think that it made a big difference that I didn't read John Ingalls' book until I had already become somewhat disillusioned with the LC. The account of Lee's behavior during that conference just casts such a big shadow on WL and everything that people thought him to be. His behavior was just so outrageous, there's really no way that anyone could rationalize it.

For those who are in the LC, I think that the dilemma they are facing goes beyond it being a simple issue of lies vs facts. Most of them have invested a good amount of time/money in the the LC, even to the point of moving around the country, picking places to live, careers that accommodate the LC, etc. For them to admit that they need to leave is a big deal. And unfortunately, I think it's just too difficult for some people to arrive at that conclusion.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:49 AM   #21
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Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.
No Christian should be forced to choose between two men. Anytime we must choose between two ministers, we, by definition, become "of man." And tragically then we are no more "of Christ."

We choose the Lord by faith and in the Spirit of God by His grace, but once we choose man, any man, we become fleshly, men in the flesh, men walking in jealousy and strife. (I Cor 3.3-4) Choosing men shipwrecks our faith and our conscience. (I Tim 1.19) Choosing men causes us to fall from grace.

Rather we must choose Christ only Christ, choose righteousness, choose the gospel, choose the truth, and choose life. The natural man will always choose the easy way, the wide way, and in the Recovery the easy way is to choose Lee. All of the ministry zealots then will be behind you.
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No Christian should be forced to choose between two men. Anytime we must choose between two ministers, we, by definition, become "of man." And tragically then we are no more "of Christ."
WL's ministry was really always about himself. Among all those who WL eventually saw as threats, they never stole any of his thunder. If anything, they probably could be faulted for how much they had championed for him in the past.

In a way, WL forcing people to take sides was really just him verbalizing what many already knew to be true - that he was a one man show.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:09 PM   #23
Terry
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Default Re: Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

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Originally Posted by Weighingin View Post
I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.
I had been told otherwise by a former LSM volunteer. There is or was a video, but it is restricted. The context is 2003-2005 when this information was revealed to me.
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