My Testimony: Olvin

[Olvin]

I came into the LC in Cleveland a couple of months before the 82 winter training, it changed my christian life, which even up to that point was quit given by His grace. I am quit confident that I had read the Bible more than most of the young brothers in the LC, and yet none could convince me that mans salvation was secure; during the Peter training I got perfectly clear, and my brother, our brother Lee was not even discussing our eternal salvation. I and 40 other brothers were in the first one year full time traing TC held in Cleveland, it was the most profitable year of my life to date. I learned to how to study, how to share, how to discern. John Ingles taught church history, out from which came the Fristfruit series; this more than anything opened my eyes to how the Lord is building His Church, His Kingdom in spite of the frailty, the weakness, the stubbornness and sinfulness of His vessels.

I don't think there are many who have suffered more indignities than myself in the local church. Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Now before you assume that I am definding anything or one, I'll tell you I was excommunicated by TC. I said and wrote some of the same things I am reading on here. First I complained to brother WL about TC lording it over the flock. Then I learned that brother Lee, when confronted with his error only defended himself in his free book defending all the allegations brought himself. I knew then, as devastated as I was, that though I could no longer sit under this type leadership. What I didn't know then, was that most brothers can't separate the work The Lord does through man from the man. So I could find no brothers who were like minded according to the recovered truth (I assume you understand) who were willing to meet apart from LMS.

There is so much I could say, sooo much... but we must get on with it. We should not think these things strange. We have the bible, we have church history,and we also have a promise "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Olvin

I came into the LC in Cleveland a couple of months before the 82 winter training...

Olvin thanks for posting.

I think I was there in the Cleveland upstairs meeting room when you got the boot from Titus.

Unfortunately no one stood with you to challenge his abuse. I just watched in awe, with "fear and trembling," yet never hearing what your "crime" was.

I remember your love for the Lord, His people, and the gospel. We never received an explanation for why Titus kicked you out of the meeting. No one dared to challenge his authority, even when brothers were being hurt and the church was suffering loss. Titus was able to act without anyone balancing his decisions.

Could you share more details? It helps others to understand what happened to the local churches, why "something so good turned out so bad."

[UntoHim]

olvin,
Thanks for being the first one to take me up on my challenge for all the people who have never posted to come out of the shadows and post on the open forum. Your post encouraged me to keep my challenge up there for another period of time.

Wow, you went over TC's head directly to Witness Lee? Man that must have taken some incredible instestinal fortitude! So I take it from your post that, after all this time, you have never found any place to fellowship with other Christians?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Olvin

I came into the LC in Cleveland a couple of months before the 82 winter training, it changed my christian life, which even up to that point was quit given by His grace. I am quit confident that I had read the Bible more than most of the young brothers in the LC, and yet none could convince me that mans salvation was secure; during the Peter training I got perfectly clear, and my brother, our brother Lee was not even discussing our eternal salvation. I and 40 other brothers were in the first one year full time traing TC held in Cleveland, it was the most profitable year of my life to date. I learned to how to study, how to share, how to discern. John Ingles taught church history, out from which came the Fristfruit series; this more than anything opened my eyes to how the Lord is building His Church, His Kingdom in spite of the frailty, the weakness, the stubbornness and sinfulness of His vessels.

I don't think there are many who have suffered more indignities than myself in the local church. Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Thanks for sharing your testimony Olvin. I left long before you came went into the LC...before there was an FTT. I had never even heard of TC until I started hanging out in this forum.

Don't hang out here too much anymore. It's hard to connect with people here. Everyone is at a very different place in their spiritual journey. But it is hard to get the memories of the LC out of me because like you, my short time there was the most profitable time of my life. My time there taught me to ground myself in the Word of God. The Holy Spirit and the fellowship of the saints opened the eyes of my understanding. I may not have known it back in the day but I know it now.

It was my spiritual foundation. After I left, I wallowed in the valley of the shadow of death and wandered in the wilderness for many a year. But those were learning experiences as well.

What I learned in the LC about God's Spirit living in our spirit, about the depths of the riches of the LORD, about living a sanctified life, about the Power of the Blood of the Lamb, about dying to self, about fellowshipping with the Body of Christ, has been super helpful to my existence and survival to this day. Grant it, the Holy Spirit is the ONE Who gives me/us the Insight, Understanding, Strength and Ability to overcome but had I not learned these principles back in the day, I don't know how strong I would be today. The Holy Spirit has taught me so much more since then. The LC was like spiritual grade school and high school for me. I did very well. But to really grow and mature, I had to go to Holy Spirit University. And He is not there. I haven't always done too well in my spiritual exams and have repeated a few classes a couple of times. But it has been well worth repeating the Holy Spirit lessons of Life so that I could move up to the next level.

When I have shared my testimony with my childhood friends, they tell me that there was something special during my time in the LC and are glad I was there !! LOL !!! But overall, my time in the LC was a positive one, unlike many of the people here. It is not like that anymore. I have no regrets in having left. The LC taught me to follow the SPIRIT in my spirit and I DID. He led me in...and HE LED ME OUT. Glory to Almighty God, El SHADDAI.

OLVIN:May you continue to grow strong in the Power and Might in the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit of Father God Yahweh. May the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding guide your spirit and your mind in all Truth, blessing you with Wisdom and Revelation beyond your imagination. May the LORD envelop you with His Love and cover you under the shadow of His Wings. May He shower and bless you with supernatural Favor and Grace all the days of your life in the Mighty Name of Jesus, in the Mighty Name of El Shaddai and in the Mighty Name of His Holy Spirit, the Ruach Ha Kodesh. Make it so Lord Jesus. Make it so. AMEN.

Carol

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Hi Olvin,

I don't post here much anymore, but every now and then someone like you comes along and I feel the Lord wants me to post.

Let me put this as plainly as I can, and please don't be offended, but here's the thing:

You don't know what you are talking about.

There is plenty of revelation in the Church outside of Lee's ministry. In fact, there is better revelation. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you will be.

The fact is this: It's you who don't know God's purpose. It's you who don't know the mystery of human life. You think you do, but you don't. If you still hold onto what Lee taught about those things, you have some impressive-sounding doctrines which miss the mark by a wide margin, and the proof is the divisiveness of the local church spirit. Does it make sense that the LC really has all this "revelation" if it is as screwed up as it is? How could that be? The fact is, they don't. They have high-sounding doctrines which misrepresent God, his nature and his purpose. The sooner you figure that out, the better--for yourself and those you influence.

[Olvin]

Brother Igzy, One thing I do know is: if it is your desire to have fellowship with a brother you probably should not start off by telling them they don't know what they are talking about, that they don't know the purpose God or the mystery of human life.

I have not suggested that you don't know these things, my simple challenge was that apart from what you have learned from the ministry - do you know them. Now maybe you were confused with the term "the ministry" if you think it means LSM then you don't get it. If you understand that it refers to all those faithful men and women who throughout history have contended for the faith, and have pointed us to the person and work of Christ, then you would be quit presumptuous to exclude WL.

I believe that "it IS God's eternal purpose to have a group of people created in is image and likeness to be filled with Him as life to express Him and represent Him." You say this is "high-sounding doctrine that misrepresents God". I have shared the simple truth with grade school children. Were we not made in his image and after His likeness? Is this not for the purpose of expressing Him and representing Him? Is not taking Him in as food (life) a major theme from Genesis to Revelation. I hope I don't need to share verses to prove I know what I'm talking about. And brother, the human life will remain a mystery unless man understands he was made to be filled with the life of God. Now there is very little that is high sounding about that. Do you eat and drink the Lord by reading and prayer? All who eat me shall live because me... unless you eat... you have no life. What a simple word, not high sounding at all. Do you have something a little more down to earth to minister by way of "doctrine" than this.

Brother the reason we have the saying of throwing out the baby with the bathwater is because thats what we do. A sister told me long ago, when it comes to receiving a person's ministry: we must learn to eat the melon and spit out the seeds. Brother the Church is the most precious item the universe (now thats high-sounding), but we should never confuse it with the congregation. History has proven to us that saints used greatly by God have wavered, and stumbled, and fallen. Most of the great reformers got stuck on some point of doctrine or practice, thus all the divisions today; you should know these thing if you are posting here. Why should we expect different from our contemporaries? Jesus warned that: some would come in their own name and we would hear them, but He coming in the name of His father, they would not hear.

I honor Brother Lee, and the work the Lord has done through him. I never considered him the oracle of the the Lord as some were foolishly proclaiming, but when God was speaking through him, God was speaking through him. It is more often the spirit of cowardliness among the brothers that give the Diotrephes in our mist the power to frustrate the Lord's work. When we know in whom we believe are persuaded the He is able to keep that which we have committed to Him, an thus refuse to let any person have preeminence over us, we will give the Lord a way advance.

Brother the Lord is a light before our feet and a light unto our paths, but that doesn't mean we don't have to look down. We are all in the race, some will stumble, some will fall, some will drop the baton, but others will pick it up and continue, believing that I is a noble thing to contend for the faith once handed down. I believe that He will bring us all on to perfection, but we must be willing to be brought on...As for those that are influenced by me, I pray that whatever of Christ has been formed in me would be manifest in my living and speaking.

One final question: what is this mark that I have missed by a large margin?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Brother Igzy, One thing I do know is: if it is your desire to have fellowship with a brother you probably should not start off by telling them they don't know what they are talking about, that they don't know the purpose God or the mystery of human life.

It's too bad this thread became confrontational at the onset.

Brother Olvin, this really is your own thread to provide your introduction and testimony.

While I think Igzy's post was like one of those "ice baths" in the news, his insights usually are quite informative.

[Olvin]

Maybe it was my oversight, but I seemed to have missed his insight in our first encounter.
I pray we would treasure hearing it is the unraveling of mysteries.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Olvin

I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Olvin:

Yours is a voice of reason. I am on record as having said that I did not reject Witness Lee and the Local Church primarily because of the teachings but because of the practices. It was all the lying, all the misrepresentation, all the abuse of power, all the wasteful expenditure … I can continue but I stop here.

The general conduct of Witness Lee and those with whom he had surrounded himself unfortunately far outweighs the benefits of his speaking ministry; you just spontaneously developed an aversion to anything Witness Lee. Yet, it is impossible to try and altogether remove what had been deposited of the Lord into your being.

Your only choice was to balance that with God's Word and eventually you were restored unto the Lord. You had to trust Him to remove the dross from your being and to preserve whatever was pure and from Him.

Delight yourself in the good, acceptable and perfect will of God.

[Olvin]

I appreciate that Friedel, but let me say that we don't have to lay aside the word of truth we have received, it is the gospel of our salvation, Eph.1:13. I was thinking brother how the Lord spoke to the church in Ephesus; the thing he had against them was that they had left their first love. This is a verse that has spoken to me again and again over the years. We have not forsaking the object of our love - Christ but the depth, the intensity, the passion of it. I believe it is mainly because of the disappoint we experienced with those who we at some point found to be false. It becomes hard to separate the person from the work that the Lord is doing in them; and of course there should be no separation between the two.

We begin to consider, as we should, God's word in light of those who speak it. I know this is a verse that has been used too often to justify those fleshly ministers of the gospel, yet if Christ is indeed preached we have reason to rejoice! 1Thes.2:13 reminds us that when we first received the word we received it not as the word of man but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually worked in us. If this was our experience that, while we were under the speaking of those in the LC's, the word had its work in us, we must guard that good deposit.

I recall David's sin's of adultery, murder, of numbering the people even against the good advice of Joab; Peter's hypocrisy in withdrawing from the gentiles to please men after receiving a vision and making clear to all the brothers that God had granted the gentiles repentance unto life Acts 11. We understand Paul shaved his head and took a vow and paid for three other brothers to do the same contrary to what he had taught, and even after having rebuked Peter for his misstep.

I understand a lot of ugly things have transpired in the LRC's, but a lot of life and truth has been ministered also. We should not sacrifice the truth on the alter of perfection. If we are looking for sinless perfection in the ministers of the gospel we must begin with the saint in the mirror. I used to run a lot when I was younger. When running with group it is good to pace yourself with a runner of you caliber, you may be the person setting the pace, but if that lead runner you are following pulls a hamstring and sits at the side of the road you don't stop and do the same, you either take the lead or follow behind another pace setter. We all have a responsibility to finish the course, to run with endurance the race set before us, not looking at the brother who stumbled (we pray his recovery) but away unto Jesus the beginner and finisher of our race (faith) our joy and crown. I for one can never again RUN with the LRC's as they stand today, but if truth be the "baton" I will continue to pass it to any who are willing to receive it.

[Olvin]

Please forgive my ignorance, very rarely do I enter group discussions online.
I received a pop-up from someone recommending a book which I inadvertently
deleted. Whoever you are please repost, and thanks

[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm saying if you still revere Lee's vision of things, then you have more to learn than you know. I hope you learn it, because the reality is better than what he taught. Much better....

Brother why not fear for all the millions of God's people who are being fleeced everyday by those hawking the gospel. Brother the Spirit bears witness with my spirit, what you think, which to me you don't do enough of, especially before you speak, does not mean much too me. You need to learn what it means to have your speech seasoned so that grace might come forth to minister. As for cold water, don't worry, I didn't get wet at all.

Originally Posted by Olvin

Please forgive my ignorance, very rarely do I enter group discussions online.
I received a pop-up from someone recommending a book which I inadvertently
deleted. Whoever you are please repost, and thanks

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Brother why not fear for all the millions of God's people who are being fleeced everyday by those hawking the gospel.

Who said I didn't? The spell of Leeism is more insidious, however. It's a harder spell to break. And people who are being pushed into buying LSM materials under dire warnings of not being able to overcome are being fleeced too. And that attitude started with Lee.

Besides, one tends to have an interest in things one has been burned by.

Brother the Spirit bears witness with my spirit, what you think, which to me you don't do enough of, especially before you speak, does not mean much too me. You need to learn what it means to have your speech seasoned so that grace might come forth to minister. As for cold water, don't worry, I didn't get wet at all.

Okay, now we're even. If I was offensive, I apologize. I was more irritated by the fact that you are still buying the company line than by you yourself.

Let's move on with the discussion. I'll say it again. Lee distorted God's purpose. There are better definitions of it than he gave. Lee impersonalized it by making it all about a metabolic process. But exactly how the Spirit transforms us is speculative. What's important is that the transformation is based on obedience in a personal relationship with God in the context of being a servant to him and others. It's about God changing your character more than him changing your "nature" (whatever that means.) Whether you nature has been changed, who can say? That's abstract. But people can tell if your character has been changed.

So in my mind, Lee missed the point. He tried to make God's purpose impersonal. His relationships with others were impersonal, and his relationship with God seemed impersonal, too. It was all about processes and flows and natures and life. It wasn't about persons and relating. Which TOTALLY misses the point.

So my point is the idea that Lee stated the mystery of human life better than anyone is, in my opinion, gravely mistaken. And an evidence is the fruits of his ministry--a divisive, exclusive sect.

Here's the thing. What's more important, being a church that has the reality of living in God's purpose, or one that enunciates the definition of God's purpose the "best?" I think it's the former. And if it is, there are lots of places doing it better than the LC, properly expressed "mysteries of human life" notwithstanding. Words are after all, just words.

Originally Posted by Olvin

I appreciate that Friedel, but let me say that we don't have to lay aside the word of truth we have received, it is the gospel of our salvation, Eph.1:13. I was thinking brother how the Lord spoke to the church in Ephesus; the thing he had against them was that they had left their first love. This is a verse that has spoken to me again and again over the years. We have not forsaking the object of our love - Christ but the depth, the intensity, the passion of it. I believe it is mainly because of the disappoint we experienced with those who we at some point found to be false. It becomes hard to separate the person from the work that the Lord is doing in them; and of course there should be no separation between the two.

We begin to consider, as we should, God's word in light of those who speak it. I know this is a verse that has been used too often to justify those fleshly ministers of the gospel, yet if Christ is indeed preached we have reason to rejoice! 1Thes.2:13 reminds us that when we first received the word we received it not as the word of man but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually worked in us. If this was our experience that, while we were under the speaking of those in the LC's, the word had its work in us, we must guard that good deposit.

I recall David's sin's of adultery, murder, of numbering the people even against the good advice of Joab; Peter's hypocrisy in withdrawing from the gentiles to please men after receiving a vision and making clear to all the brothers that God had granted the gentiles repentance unto life Acts 11. We understand Paul shaved his head and took a vow and paid for three other brothers to do the same contrary to what he had taught, and even after having rebuked Peter for his misstep.

I understand a lot of ugly things have transpired in the LRC's, but a lot of life and truth has been ministered also. We should not sacrifice the truth on the alter of perfection. If we are looking for sinless perfection in the ministers of the gospel we must begin with the saint in the mirror. I used to run a lot when I was younger. When running with group it is good to pace yourself with a runner of you caliber, you may be the person setting the pace, but if that lead runner you are following pulls a hamstring and sits at the side of the road you don't stop and do the same, you either take the lead or follow behind another pace setter. We all have a responsibility to finish the course, to run with endurance the race set before us, not looking at the brother who stumbled (we pray his recovery) but away unto Jesus the beginner and finisher of our race (faith) our joy and crown. I for one can never again RUN with the LRC's as they stand today, but if truth be the "baton" I will continue to pass it to any who are willing to receive it.

...hear, hear...
I like your Boston marathon metaphor. My question is after having ran with the LRC, and left, whom do you run with afterwards, with whom do you pace yourself, having exited the LRC. There are many instances on this forum where I've read of ex-LRC'ers who have been 'unable', though 'not unwilling' to join with other Christians in fellowship and it has sometimes taken years for them to resume this kind of contact...and yet, as we know, we 'should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is'...You speak of 'a goodly deposit' in our being as a benefit of having sat at the feet of WL, but does this 'deposit' then turn into 'a poison' upon leaving. Because it seems to me that this poison is a very real, very clear, and very present difficulty with many brothers; and it takes anything but a short while to detox or recover from its effects...have you experienced this? What could be the explanation of this? Why is it that if one moves from one denomination to another in 'bad ole Christianity', it is not attended by this kind of difficulty? Can you offer any helpful insight into this, brother Olvin? Perhaps it may help us gain a further understanding into the nature of the far-reaching effects of involvement with the LRC. We may find that perhaps it is not a difficulty at all, but a preservation!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

...hear, hear...
I like your Boston marathon metaphor. My question is after having ran with the LRC, and left, whom do you run with afterwards, with whom do you pace yourself, having exited the LRC. There are many instances on this forum where I've read of ex-LRC'ers who have been 'unable', though 'not unwilling' to join with other Christians in fellowship and it has sometimes taken years for them to resume this kind of contact...and yet, as we know, we 'should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is'...You speak of 'a goodly deposit' in our being as a benefit of having sat at the feet of WL, but does this 'deposit' then turn into 'a poison' upon leaving. Because it seems to me that this poison is a very real, very clear, and very present difficulty with many brothers; and it takes anything but a short while to detox or recover from its effects...have you experienced this? What could be the explanation of this? Why is it that if one moves from one denomination to another in 'bad ole Christianity', it is not attended by this kind of difficulty? Can you offer any helpful insight into this, brother Olvin? Perhaps it may help us gain a further understanding into the nature of the far-reaching effects of involvement with the LRC. We may find that perhaps it is not a difficulty at all, but a preservation!

We all have had to pass thru a time of "detox" from the "poisons" of Lee's ministry. The problem we all have faced is due to the insidious leaven which Lee has hidden into his teachings. The Jews at the time of Christ faced this same difficulty after meeting Jesus. They knew in their hearts that Jesus was the promised Messiah, yet the leaven of the Pharisees gripped them in fear at the thought of leaving the safety of the "pen." The gospels record the stories of many such cases.

Witness Lee knew what he was doing when he hid his leaven into all the teachings he took from past ministers of God. One distinct characteristic of his leaven was the wholesale condemnation on all things Christian. He knew that this would serve to "wreck" us in our attempts to merge into the greater body of Christ. He constantly elevated every part of his ministry to some "God-ordained" status, as if his ways or practices were any better than the multitude of other "ways" employed by other Christians.

Lee loved to compare the "best" of his ministry with the failings of other ministers, all the while hiding his own corruptions behind a cadre of "enforcers." Let's compare apples with apples, and we will all be shocked at how much financial corruption existed with all the hard-earned offerings of the saints -- millions of dollars spent on legal fees, bankrupt business plans, and the profligate lifestyles of the Lee family.

Even though I learned many good Bible teachings from Lee, I no longer credit him. Didn't he just pass on much of it from past men of God? "Standing on their shoulders" really meant re-teaching from their books, often without providing credits. Every minister has "plagiarized" the Bible, so that's not the point, but rather we should never have been taught to boast in man, or elevate his ministry, but to boast in God, and God alone. Lee became who he was in the recovery simply because he was able to employ talented lackeys who uplifted him above all. And it all started with Phillip Lee's ingenious idea to charge a "donation" to hear his Daddy speak.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You speak of 'a goodly deposit' in our being as a benefit of having sat at the feet of WL, but does this 'deposit' then turn into 'a poison' upon leaving. Because it seems to me that this poison is a very real, very clear, and very present difficulty with many brothers; and it takes anything but a short while to detox or recover from its effects...have you experienced this?

Yes I did. In spades. It took 3 yrs of intense mind deprogramming for me to get free of the grip of Lee's kool-aid ... and even after decades there's still traces of it sloshing around, as evidenced by my presence here. I'm still getting free. Some out here will prolly think "too free." Hey, I've still got traces of Southern Baptist kool-aid sloshing around in there. It's all hanging onto me like barnacles, sucking on me. It's not healthy. It makes me crazy. The local church has made many crazy. Walk out. Shake it off. The world, and God, will be better off ... and you'll eventually be happier for it.

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes I did. In spades. It took 3 yrs of intense mind deprogramming for me to get free of the grip of Lee's kool-aid ... and even after decades there's still traces of it sloshing around, as evidenced by my presence here. I'm still getting free. Some out here will prolly think "too free." Hey, I've still got traces of Southern Baptist kool-aid sloshing around in there. It's all hanging onto me like barnacles, sucking on me. It's not healthy. It makes me crazy. The local church has made many crazy. Walk out. Shake it off. The world, and God, will be better off ... and you'll eventually be happier for it.

Thank you for your sharing, Awarness. Much appreciated. But perhaps you could be a little bit more penetrating in your analysis of what happened to you and try to get to the heart of the issue. This was the deeper aim of my post and my question towards brother Olvin. I want to prod this animal and see what it is made up of, instead of just calling it, 'bad dog, bad dog...sit!'. Is there something sinister, for example, and spiritually insidious, going on? Can the workings and stratagems of Satan be discerned in these experiences? If so, what is the nature of the foothold that he was afforded? To what extent is the LRC complicit in this? Could all those misguided prayers (called 'maledictions' in my dictionary) offered up to God that He might harm, or bring misfortune upon, brother so-and-so or sister so-and-so to bring them back to the local church have inadvertently lent themselves instead to blind partnership with the goals and objectives of Beelzebub? Has the church, by exalting a flawed individual, or by mindless chanting (called 'calling'), or by discouraging critical thought, etc, etc, unwittingly compromised itself to the possible degree that Satan may have set up camp right in the very midst of it?...and so on..

I think these are very interesting questions. We like to focus are vitriol on the visible, on flesh and blood, on the people that we can see and touch, and hold and listen to; and we single them out as the source and cause of our past ills and aches. Whereas we forget, almost conveniently, that there is an unseen world of malevolent spirits driven by such wickedness and fueled with such maliciousness -so much so that any charges we may level at those in the LC who have hurt us would pale into brilliant, white light when set against the purposes and intentions of these-, beings of such power and intelligence operating and pulling the strings -where they can- behind the scenes in every area of human life...both within the church and without. It is possible that the answers to these questions might provide useful solutions for guarding against attack from the "real enemy!" I think we tend to overlook and ignore the very real spiritual angle in our analyses of all that is wrong with the LC's, and thus mis-aim, not fighting the good fight, wrestling against flesh and blood, instead of "wrestling against principalities, against powers...against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"...Perhaps Witness Lee's greatest trespass against the LC, and perhaps his greatest oversight, was to cultivate a devil-may-care, out-of-balance attitude in the minds of his followers that almost completely dismissed the supernatural and its role in our lives...maybe that's why it's such a great tug-of-war to get plugged back into the genuine Body having exodus-ed one tiny, but exalted sub-division of it.

...It's spiritual, folks!

[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

...hear, hear...
I like your Boston marathon metaphor. My question is after having ran with the LRC, and left, whom do you run with afterwards, with whom do you pace yourself, having exited the LRC. There are many instances on this forum where I've read of ex-LRC'ers who have been 'unable', though 'not unwilling' to join with other Christians in fellowship and it has sometimes taken years for them to resume this kind of contact...and yet, as we know, we 'should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is'...You speak of 'a goodly deposit' in our being as a benefit of having sat at the feet of WL, but does this 'deposit' then turn into 'a poison' upon leaving. Because it seems to me that this poison is a very real, very clear, and very present difficulty with many brothers; and it takes anything but a short while to detox or recover from its effects...have you experienced this? What could be the explanation of this? Why is it that if one moves from one denomination to another in 'bad ole Christianity', it is not attended by this kind of difficulty? Can you offer any helpful insight into this, brother Olvin? Perhaps it may help us gain a further understanding into the nature of the far-reaching effects of involvement with the LRC. We may find that perhaps it is not a difficulty at all, but a preservation!

Unregistered, 2Tim2:22 says: in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English Escape from all lust of youth and run after righteousness, faith, love, and peace, in company with those others who call on he Lord out of a pure heart.
Thank God for those others. Unreg, the LC was not my first rodeo nor my last. That is not something to boast in. We are the family God because we are born of Him and share His life; we are of the household of faith, we share the like precious faith, the one faith, there should be no reason that we should not be able to meet with any in our family who are running after those treasures of righteousness, faith, love, and peace. This is what I sought to do.
I have meet and formed relationships with many of my brothers and sisters in Christ outside the LC's. We were strangers, unfamiliar with one another, simply because we had not met. Don't misunderstand not all family reunions evolve into enduring relationships but what they should do is establish the realization that others share the same DNA as you.
The Lord allowed me the privilege of meeting with a few groups over the years.
Some became fearful when they heard my wife and I had been in the LC, but the Lord did not allow that to distort the relationship which was built upon those precious things we were running after. Then I wet with groups who could care less about WL or the LC's who genuinely love me and my family but were running after what I considered fell into the category of youthful lust (prosperity). I am bold to say these teachings are from the seducing spirits and are doctrines of demons. Those brothers I still love and have found away to disagree strongly with and still have fellowship. And more than a few have dropped that way based upon my opening the word to them. Now they care for their aging parents, or some needy families with their "tithe". I told them God would not be mad if they took care of people in need with their tithe. It just made sense to them.
I meet with a pastor at my place of work, we have had fellowshipped for the past two years at lunch. He has been to seminary and has a firm grasp of scripture. He has become a precious brother to me, and I believe I to him.
I speak out of what I am constituted with; some on this forum might say polluted with and need detoxing from. But this brother and I enjoy each others portion of Christ. I speak with the vocabulary I understand. I have no need to regurgitate WL teachings. God's word has always been and will be what I give others, but I would be remiss not to credit the ministry that was continued and advanced be it "stolen" or otherwise from WL.
Brother, when I first left the LC I felt at times belittled, betrayed, befuddled and bewildered by the way brothers chose a practice over a relationship. I could have said to more than a few: you may have 1000 instructors... but one father, I begot you though the word of truth. Still they stood with the powers that were.
I can say with all my heart I never felt poisoned or the need for a detox.
I am confident what I pass on to others by way of truth will only encourage them. Ours is the God of all encouragement and we are to encourage others with same encouragement we receive from Him. Ours is the ministry of reconciliation; we will never fulfill this ministry with bitterness, hatred, and strife in our hearts.
Why does it seem easy for christians to move from place to place with little difficulty?
Just like it's easy for a man to leave his family in this climate of easy no fault divorce.
He has not seen the family according to the heart of God. He dose not consider
the debilitating consequences of his neglect and abandonment to his own psyche needless to say that of his spouse and children. He has little realization of the detriment on society by his choice. Absent fathers are one of the single most contributing factors to poverty in any community. Maybe that is way the church is so spiritually poor, too many broken vows.
I said all that to say we in the LC's were taught that Oneness was paramount.
That the body was not to be divided, that denominations were in fact denominations; granted so are the LC's.
I'll be bold to say the Lord never allowed me to confuse the practice with the truth. So today I am still in the race by his mercy, still with the need and grace to lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets.

Peace

[UntoHim]

Olvin,
Thanks for hangin in there, my brother. This forum needs people like you!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Brother Igzy, One thing I do know is: if it is your desire to have fellowship with a brother you probably should not start off by telling them they don't know what they are talking about, that they don't know the purpose God or the mystery of human life.

I'm saying if you still revere Lee's vision of things, then you have more to learn than you know. I hope you learn it, because the reality is better than what he taught. Much better.

I have not suggested that you don't know these things, my simple challenge was that apart from what you have learned from the ministry - do you know them.

Yes, I do. And I had to unlearn much of what Lee taught about it to actually get it right. I never truly understood what God's purpose is when I only had Lee's teachings.

Now maybe you were confused with the term "the ministry" if you think it means LSM then you don't get it. If you understand that it refers to all those faithful men and women who throughout history have contended for the faith, and have pointed us to the person and work of Christ, then you would be quit presumptuous to exclude WL.

The term "the ministry" is confusing and should be dropped. Lee abused it. It has a superiority connotation, especially when used in discussions involving him. But, regardless, the Bible doesn't talk in terms of "the ministry." The Bible says there are "many minstries." So talking about "the ministry" is really a form of exclusivism.

I believe that "it IS God's eternal purpose to have a group of people created in is image and likeness to be filled with Him as life to express Him and represent Him."

The problem isn't the words. The problem is how you understand them. The words are a shell. It's what you see when you hear them that matters. I don't have a problem with the words; I have a problem with what they mean to the LC.

Let me put it this way: The LC likes to talk about "expressing God." But that's nothing unique to them. All Christians know we need to express God. They might term it differently, but they mean the same thing. The problem with LCers is they congratulate themselves for saying it "right", but have not gotten around to actually doing it. In the meantime, a lot of other Christians whom LCers dismiss as not knowing God's purpose are actually expressing God. I think that's pretty ironic.

One final question: what is this mark that I have missed by a large margin?

The mark of the first and second commandments, which Lee replaced with his economy. The mark of genuine humility, sacrifice, and service, which are all too rare in those who follow Lee. You are not really expressing God if you don't have those things.

Olvin, forgive me for "jumping" on you. But I was being honest. I think you are more ignorant than you know. I think you need to get out and realize that the essence of God's purpose, not in Lee's terms, but the genuine essence of it, is being realized in a lot of places. And that is much more important that getting the terminology right.

If you think God's purpose is best summed-up in Lee's phraseology, then I'm afraid all you really have is a phrase. You haven't really experienced the reality as much as you might think. Sorry, I've seen it in myself and in too many others. Cold water? Yes, I guess. Loving water? That too.

[OBW]

Olvin,

It might be that Igzy's response to you here within your testimony was a poor choice of venue, but that does not make it incorrect.

And (this will sound funny to many coming from me) it may have been too blunt to achieve what he intended, but that does not make it incorrect.

Maybe the thing to do is to depersonalize the comments and read them again in terms of the things that you have been taught to believe for many years. To let his comments point to the ways that "the ministry" has hidden error behind a smokescreen of rhetoric that is actually not Christian and is in direct contradiction to the Bible that you have been taught you are following.

I have had a recent discussion with someone else concerning what I perceive as a system of error within the teachings of both Nee and Lee. It is a complex combination of real truth, highly charged terminology, special meanings for certain words (a private lexicon — that makes conversation with other Christians quite difficult), bandwagon thinking, an elevated status for "the ministry" so that we would not question or challenge things that should have set off significant red flags. All with the goal of placing Nee, then Lee, at the pinnacle of the local churches so that we would make such declarations that "even if he's wrong, he's right."

You may think you don't believe that. And you are probably being honest about it. But as you begin to peel away the errors, at some point, you will being to feel (as I have often felt) that you have been sold a bill of goods and didn't even realize it. No matter whether you think you are dumping everything Lee all at once or over time, you will find years later that some particular thing is still hanging on, and when you recognize it for what it is, your first thought will be "how could I have ever believed that." The answer is that we bought it one little bit hidden in an apparently healthy meal after another such meal. Eventually, we thought the Spam was Del Frisco steak and the jelly caviar. The garlic room that supposedly had Christianity befuddled was really right there in the meeting hall in "fill in the city name."

Let the bluntness of Igzy's words go on by you. Somehow we managed to switch roles this one time. I'm sure that neither of us will let it happen again.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Let the bluntness of Igzy's words go on by you. Somehow we managed to switch roles this one time. I'm sure that neither of us will let it happen again.

Touché

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The term "the ministry" is confusing and should be dropped. Lee abused it. It has a superiority connotation, especially when used in discussions involving him. But, regardless, the Bible doesn't talk in terms of "the ministry." The Bible says there are "many minstries." So talking about "the ministry" is really a form of exclusivism.

Not so.

These statements have no basis in the Bible. "Ministry" is used often in the New Testament and Paul even said to the Romans, "I magnify my ministry" (Romans 11:3). To Timothy he wrote: "Fulfill your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:5).

Just because Witness Lee abused this word and made it exclusive, as if it belonged to him alone, does not invalidate it so that it should be scrapped.

"Ministry" carries within itself the sense of "serving" and that should be our goal.

We should never allow our disdain of Witness Lee's contemptible acts of lying, misrepresentation, etc. to want to delete words from the Bible. That is not for us to decide. If God put them there, who am I to touch them?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Not so.

These statements have no basis in the Bible. "Ministry" is used often in the New Testament and Paul even said to the Romans, "I magnify my ministry" (Romans 11:3). To Timothy he wrote: "Fulfill your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:5).

Just because Witness Lee abused this word and made it exclusive, as if it belonged to him alone, does not invalidate it so that it should be scrapped.

"Ministry" carries within itself the sense of "serving" and that should be our goal.

We should never allow our disdain of Witness Lee's contemptible acts of lying, misrepresentation, etc. to want to delete words from the Bible. That is not for us to decide. If God put them there, who am I to touch them?

I think you missed the point. It is not that the word "ministry" is missing from the Bible. It is that there virtually no comment on ministry outside of the peculiar ministry than any particular person has.

It surely is important that the ministry that anyone claims to have is soundly within the charge for those who are called to minister. But nothing other than being within that rather large scope is distinctly defined as "the ministry" in the way that Lee talked of it. And the way he talked of it was to assert that his ministry was "the ministry" and that all others qualified as "so-called ministries" and were off the mark of "God's economy."

(I know that putting God's economy in quotes may be controversial, but it is not because God does not have an economy, but because what Lee called God's economy does not resemble anything that I can find as the logical content of such an economy.)

"The ministry" is to go forth to disciple, baptize, and teach (to obey). That is the way that Jesus put it. Paul repackaged it into functions of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers (quite reasonable coming from the person who inroduced the idea of gifts given to the body as needed). But the content really did not change. Paul spent a lot of time teaching them to obey. He sent several letters to point out where they were not obedient. And before that, he had come through as an apostle and evangelist, being specifically sent by God to bring the good news to the people.

You are right that ministry brings the meaning of serving. And it should be the goal of everyone who has a ministry. And at some level, we all have a ministry. Not like Paul. Or like any number of modern "ministers" of our day. We mostly have "one talent" ministries. And that's all we have been asked to do.

And that one talent ministry does not need to be entirely on board with any particular man's ministry, whether Lee's or anyone else's. Just consistent with the message of Christ.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Not so.

These statements have no basis in the Bible. "Ministry" is used often in the New Testament and Paul even said to the Romans, "I magnify my ministry" (Romans 11:3). To Timothy he wrote: "Fulfill your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:5).

Just because Witness Lee abused this word and made it exclusive, as if it belonged to him alone, does not invalidate it so that it should be scrapped.

"Ministry" carries within itself the sense of "serving" and that should be our goal.

We should never allow our disdain of Witness Lee's contemptible acts of lying, misrepresentation, etc. to want to delete words from the Bible. That is not for us to decide. If God put them there, who am I to touch them?

Friedel, As OBW said, you missed the point. It's not the word "ministry" I object to. It's the phrase "THE ministry," implying the one-and-only ministry" which can somehow be possessed by a subset of special ministers. This idea is not biblical.

Referring to the ministry you follow as "the ministry" is simply a glorified way of saying "I have the correct doctrines and you don't." It's just a more clever way of doing it.

[Ohio]

Couple comments here for the benefit of the "new guy" ...

The Great Lakes Area Local Churches are a kind of "Witness Lee Lite." In many regards, much to Titus Chu's credit, GLA LC's never saw the insidious extremes which prevailed in other parts of the country. It's kind of like a multi-car pileup on the freeway, with the first few drivers getting whiplash and face burns from airbags and the last few drivers just jamming the brakes and saying, "boy was I lucky."

The GLA LC's thus received a "sanitized" version of LSM from a distance, while other places witnessed and lived thru the extremes first hand. Thus the perceptions of LSM differ. For example, those ex-members on the forum will readily call the Recovery a "cult," while those within the GLA are reluctant to do so. There are (or were) many gifted shepherds in the GLA LC's who struggled to keep their churches in the reality of Christ, rather than to become along with their saints merely mindless ministry sycophants.

Many forum participants take a no-nonsense approach to numerous topics about Witness Lee which is a little unsettling to new posters. Personally I have many friends and family who were (or still are) in the Recovery. Many don't want to hear what really happened in Anaheim. Even those who have left don't want to hear derogatory comments about any of Lee's teachings.

I have always felt that teachings are secondary to the lives of the saints. Serious concerns relate to how people were treated. The kingdom of God is firstly righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. LC leaders felt they were above the law, and covered their unrighteousness. Consequently many were hurt. All the best teachings in the world cannot replace righteousness, honesty, and integrity in our leaders.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple comments here for the benefit of the "new guy"

Glad somebody seeks a benefit for bro Olvin. Some must know who he is, and so have reason unknown to the rest of us, for pouncing on him ... like they think he's been sent ... and didn't just come on his own to LCD.

All I can see is that he's come on his own. So I put myself in his shoes, and think back to how it was when I was at his stage of coming out of the local church.

If I'm seeing correctly we should be gentle toward our new brother.

If incorrectly, I got some pretty big rugs I could pull out from under him.

Until otherwise, I like our new brother. Even if he's in the LC, and likes Witness Lee.

And ... methinks this concern about "ministry" is a red herring. When the real problem, the thing that make's Lee's movement a cult is: The practice of Deputy And Delegated Authority.

[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm saying if you still revere Lee's vision of things, then you have more to learn than you know. I hope you learn it, because the reality is better than what he taught. Much better

If by revere you mean to hold as holy or sacrosanct, no. I your mean to honor and respect yes. Let me be clear, and the brothers that know me from Cleveland, Lorain, and Elyria can attest to this; I never preached the ground and objected vehemently when this became the word of intro to new ones. I did not agree with the one publication, nor the mandate to read the WL's messages in our meetings. It was always clear to me that God was moving among His people everywhere. I could only be were I was at that time, and I am thankful that He took me that way. Remember His sheep go in and out and find pasture. You need to learn how to eat fish without chocking on the bones!

Yes, I do. And I had to unlearn much of what Lee taught about it to actually get it right. I never truly understood what God's purpose is when I only had Lee's teachings.

You had to unlearning his teaching on full salvation: regeneration, sanctification, transformation, confirmation, glorification. Now you have them right? Please enlighten me - please.

The term "the ministry" is confusing and should be dropped. Lee abused it. It has a superiority connotation, especially when used in discussions involving him. But, regardless, the Bible doesn't talk in terms of "the ministry." The Bible says there are "many minstries." So talking about "the ministry" is really a form of exclusivism.

As I stated before, just because you are confused about the terms does not mean all are. The bible uses the term "this ministry" "the ministry" referring to a unique ministry, excluding all those void of life. Read your bible more brother. 2Cor. 3:9, 4:1, 5:18, Acts 1:17 an more.

The problem isn't the words. The problem is how you understand them. The words are a shell. It's what you see when you hear them that matters. I don't have a problem with the words; I have a problem with what they mean to the LC.

Yes brother, but how we understand is in control of the Holy Spirit wouldn't you agree. 1Cor.2:13 says Paul taught combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. The natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit they are foolish to him even offensive. Recall John 6:63. Does eating and drinking the Lord, one of WL's favorite topics yet offend you?

Let me put it this way: The LC likes to talk about "expressing God." But that's nothing unique to them. All Christians know we need to express God. They might term it differently, but they mean the same thing. The problem with LCers is they congratulate themselves for saying it "right", but have not gotten around to actually doing it. In the meantime, a lot of other Christians whom LCers dismiss as not knowing God's purpose are actually expressing God. I think that's pretty ironic.

When I was a child we had an ice box in which we keep pop, which we drank sitting on a couch watching TV. 'You' may have had a refrigerator in which you keep soda or soft drinks, while sitting on a sofa watching the television set. I would never consider that you thought you we right and I wrong in using different terms. We both would have a cold drink, a soft seat, and a diversion. Maybe congratulations are in order for using the most syllables. I am not as confident as you that All christians know they need to express God, but what I am confident of is: that almost all christians care less about what LCers think about them than you do.

The mark of the first and second commandments, which Lee replaced with his economy. The mark of genuine humility, sacrifice, and service, which are all too rare in those who follow Lee. You are not really expressing God if you don't have those things.

Do you refer to loving God and neighbor being replaced by being filled with God and ministering God's life to others. Six in one hand half-a-dozen in the other, if you can count.

Olvin, forgive me for "jumping" on you. But I was being honest. I think you are more ignorant than you know. I think you need to get out and realize that the essence of God's purpose, not in Lee's terms, but the genuine essence of it, is being realized in a lot of places. And that is much more important that getting the terminology right.

Igzy, you ask for forgiveness while in the same breath calling me MORE ignorant than I (even) know. Brother you need to stay IN and realize your speech needs to be seasoned that you may minister grace. Brother it appears that you have been confused, befuddled, and dumbfounded, in respect to all the nonsense that went on in the LCs, this does not mean that everyone else was.

If you think God's purpose is best summed-up in Lee's phraseology, then I'm afraid all you really have is a phrase. You haven't really experienced the reality as much as you might think. Sorry, I've seen it in myself and in too many others. Cold water? Yes, I guess. Loving water? That too.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Igzy, you ask for forgiveness while in the same breath calling me MORE ignorant than I (even) know.

Sorry, but it is not a necessarily a sin to call someone ignorant. And I don't accept your definition of graciousness. There are plenty of examples of strong language in the Bible in service of the truth. Methinks you doth protest too much.

You are the one who came on here and made the basic claim that we all know the meaning of life because of Witness Lee. I mean, come on bro. You really mean you don't realize what a whopper that is? Puh-leeze.

[Cal]

Here's what you said, Olvin.

"Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt."

Now, I guarantee everyone here thought that by "the ministry" you meant Lee's ministry. And if you didn't, well, it's just unreasonable to expect anyone here to have realized that. The whole point of your post seems to be to defend what you got from Lee, to say that without it you would have next to nothing.

Was that not what you were doing? By "the ministry" did you mean general Biblical truth? If so, how did you expect us to know that, given the forum you are posting on, and the history of the phrase "the ministry" among such a culture? And especially since you put the phrase in quotes. It doesn't add up.

My point was that you don't need Lee to get "the ministry" if that's what you insist on calling truth. If your point was that we wouldn't have the truth unless we had the truth, that's seems a moot point to make.

So it still seems you were saying that we'd be nowhere without Lee. Which is hogwash.

[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Here's what you said, Olvin.

"Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt."[/QUOTE]





Now, I guarantee everyone here thought that by "the ministry" you meant Lee's ministry. And if you didn't, well, it's just unreasonable to expect anyone here to have realized that. The whole point of your post seems to be to defend what you got from Lee, to say that without it you would have next to nothing.





OLVIN: Brother I did mean "the ministry" which includes the ministry of WL, and it is his portion that I am referring to (I assumed thats why YOU put it in quotes); that which came through him, a continuation of all those that preceded him. Are you getting this. You spend more time defending yourself than listening. Let me make myself clear when (I) say - ministry I am referring to the contents of the faith. I am not speaking about practices beyond that.
Igzy, why don't you answer some of the straight forward questions I asked of you, then maybe I will understand you more. Otherwise with you its endless quarreling to no profit, which I have no more time for.







So it still seems you were saying that we'd be nowhere without Lee. Which is hogwash.[/QUOTE]

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Olvin

I came into the LC in Cleveland a couple of months before the 82 winter training, it changed my christian life, which even up to that point was quit given by His grace. I am quit confident that I had read the Bible more than most of the young brothers in the LC, and yet none could convince me that mans salvation was secure; during the Peter training I got perfectly clear, and my brother, our brother Lee was not even discussing our eternal salvation. I and 40 other brothers were in the first one year full time traing TC held in Cleveland, it was the most profitable year of my life to date. I learned to how to study, how to share, how to discern. John Ingles taught church history, out from which came the Fristfruit series; this more than anything opened my eyes to how the Lord is building His Church, His Kingdom in spite of the frailty, the weakness, the stubbornness and sinfulness of His vessels.

I don't think there are many who have suffered more indignities than myself in the local church. Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Now before you assume that I am definding anything or one, I'll tell you I was excommunicated by TC. I said and wrote some of the same things I am reading on here. First I complained to brother WL about TC lording it over the flock. Then I learned that brother Lee, when confronted with his error only defended himself in his free book defending all the allegations brought himself. I knew then, as devastated as I was, that though I could no longer sit under this type leadership. What I didn't know then, was that most brothers can't separate the work The Lord does through man from the man. So I could find no brothers who were like minded according to the recovered truth (I assume you understand) who were willing to meet apart from LMS.

There is so much I could say, sooo much... but we must get on with it. We should not think these things strange. We have the bible, we have church history,and we also have a promise "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail...

Hear hear! Yes! We have the Bible, we HAVE THE CHURCH! Yes we do! That is, if we respect and know and BELIEVE the Bible, we do! And we have His promises! I receive them ALL. He is faithful who has promised. No one else can say that. But we stand on His Word!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Olvin

I don't think there are many who have suffered more indignities than myself in the local church. Still I challenge all who post here to do this: take your biblical understanding; subtract all the revelation you have received from "the ministry" and consider what you are left with. Can you minister life with that? Do you still see God's purpose, do you yet know the mystery of the human life? I doubt.

Olvin, this paragraph from your testimony kind of sums up the controversy we face on this forum. From one point of view, we had many experiences of Christ with the brothers, and learned so much about the Bible. From another point of view, the leaders abused lots of dear saints and hid their unrighteousness from sight. I definitely understand both sides of this debate because I was active in the churchlife for 3 decades, migrating twice to start new churches. I could go on and on about all the good ... and all the bad ...

Igzy and others on this forum no longer place a high value on all the Bible doctrine we have learned in the LC. They tend to focus on the Lord's commands to "love God and love your neighbor." When it comes to how the leaders in the LC's treated the saints, they are a dismal failure, as evidenced by your own testimony. "Greater love has no man than this, than we lay down our life ..." was grossly absent in LC leaders. Paul's pattern of being with the saints, as recorded in numerous books of the New Testament, was not practiced by LC leaders. It is impossible to find one verse in the Bible that can justify both W. Lee's and T. Chu's practice of publicly shaming the brothers.

I have on many occasions noted on this forum how many beloved gifted brothers who departed after enduring Titus Chu's constant abuses. Both churches I helped to start were nearly destroyed by this. You yourself have tasted this fiery trial which never should have happened. And why did it happen? Because both Titus and Lee loved to be first, lording it over the churches. They used public shaming to maintain their power base. As a result, brothers were forced to choose between being man-pleasers or being faithful to God and their conscience. They left because they chose God over man.

So we can debate all day about which point of view we like to have. Personally I treasure all my experience of Christ and everything healthy I have learned from LC teachers. The Lord warned the disciples, however, to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees," and I too have been forced to discard many LC teachings as lousy leaven. I have also discarded all of Lee's views on church history as being seriously self-serving. I could go on and on, but the point is that LC leaders took advantage of the trust we placed in them, and never took responsibility for their failures.

The Apostle Paul warned those from Ephesus that this would happen in Acts 20.28-30, "And take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained thru His own blood; I know after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; And from among you yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

Lee and Chu taught many "perverted things to draw us after themselves," and not after Christ. They surely loved the glory of men. All the glory had to go their way, rather than to God's only Son. Isn't our Heavenly Father jealous over His Son? Jesus warned the Pharisees, "How can you believe when you love the glory of man, more than the glory of God?" LC leaders were filled with the doctrines on faith, but did not possess the real thing, otherwise why would they have to resort to constant lawsuits?

[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Olvin, this paragraph from your testimony kind of sums up the controversy we face on this forum. From one point of view, we had many experiences of Christ with the brothers, and learned so much about the Bible. From another point of view, the leaders abused lots of dear saints and hid their unrighteousness from sight. I definitely understand both sides of this debate because I was active in the churchlife for 3 decades, migrating twice to start new churches. I could go on and on about all the good ... and all the bad ...

Ohio, I am thankful for your spirit (can I say that here?;-) You are so correct, we had many experiences of Christ and learned so much about the Bible.These are the things that constitute our faith; our experiences of Christ and knowledge of His word, no matter whose ministry we received them under. We cannot discount the sovereignty of God in our lives, and we surely don't want to be a cause of stumbling for others, by causing them to doubt their experiences of Christ and trust in the word which God has caused to shape their faith.

While I was in the LC, Cleve., Lorain, and Elyria,(the latter two, like you, I labored to initiate) I pushed back hard against the so called delegated authority, always reminding them that God's throne, the highest authority, is established upon righteousness; that eating and drinking Christ was great but the kingdom was not that, it was righteousness... first. We belong to the One who told use that we would we would experience fiery trials, and not to think it strange as though some strange thing were happening to us. We don't get to chose the fire we pass through, we would never chose fire; still the trying of our faith - which is more precious than gold- the trying of our faith is more precious than what we think most precious.

One story in scripture (and there are many) of overcoming the trauma of unrighteousness inflicted by leaders and or brothers is in Saul's jealous pursuit of David. David finds himself in a cave with 400 of the distressed, indebted, and discontented, all pursued by KING Saul. Some writers say 15 to 20 years David spent fleeing Saul's insane, murderous, rampage. Those with David thought him mad for not killing Saul when he could have. These men had become effected by David's heart; his heart to trust God changed their hearts. When word of the king and his son's death came, all the men that were with David, all being pursued by Saul their brother their king; all tore their clothes morned and wept 2Sam.1. Then David's song for Saul and Jonathan which he said was to be taught to the children, shows that David was a man who came to understand the grace and mercy of a sovereign Lord. I encourage those who post here - take a fresh look that scripture.

Brother, you know God's people have a history of being traumatized by those who speak in his name. Still like Paul, pressed down beyond measure even despairing of life, but believing God can raise the dead; we, his brothers have the same spirit of faith.

Brothers this will most likely be my last post here; I pray you all keep yourselves in the love of Christ. Peace!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

From another point of view, the leaders abused lots of dear saints and hid their unrighteousness from sight.

In public, the leaders can be quite positive. If you attempt to touch or expose their unrighteousness, this is when brothers and sisters may be set aside if they attempt to "tell it to the church". Whether you use the term delegated or deputy authority, the result is the same; spiritual abuse.
Instead of using the principle Matthew 18, the easy and expedient approach is to use the authority to set ones aside who oppose unrighteousness.

[Olvin]

I learned to how to study, how to share, how to discern. John Ingles taught church history, out from which came the Fristfruit series; this more than anything opened my eyes to how the Lord is building His Church, His Kingdom in spite of the frailty, the weakness, the stubbornness and sinfulness of His vessels.

Hey saints, just wanted to correct something. Please forgive me but I made a mistake; it was not John Ingles, but Jim Ritsky who taught church history during that training. I think the spelling is right, maybe not.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Olvin

Hey saints, just wanted to correct something. Please forgive me but I made a mistake; it was not John Ingles, but Jim Ritsky who taught church history during that training. I think the spelling is right, maybe not.

Actually Reetzke, but that's only because I got a church directory, and a family member who married into his family.