12-16-2016, 05:26 PM | #1001 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The scientists don't know what happened either, they just extrapolated some enormous time frame based on some timing scheme. Or are you privy to some ancient Dinosaurean Calendar? Do you really think humans would read all that happened during the 13.5 billion yrs long GAP, if God had provided it, if they don't want to accept what He did provide for the last 6 Millennia or so? Whatever was created during that 13.5 billion yrs long GAP has become little more than fossil fuels to keep us warm today and keep our cars running. Do you find that so much more interesting than our own history?
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12-16-2016, 07:00 PM | #1002 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The scientist are still trying to figure out what happened in the gap of 13.5 billions years. Maybe when they do they'll find it all started from the word of a supreme being. Who knows? According to Nee the Bible is beyond question. All your questions my be answered but not so the scientist's.
They may, when they scratch to the bottom of creation, find a voice, a word, started it all, and they may not. And Nee is likely wrong that the Bible is beyond question. It hasn't been so far. Moody Blues - Question (The metaphysician-musician's of the hippie days): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP9iOqdxS8c
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12-16-2016, 07:19 PM | #1003 | |
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12-16-2016, 08:08 PM | #1004 | |
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12-16-2016, 08:14 PM | #1005 | |
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But there's all kinds of theories, ideas, and beliefs, 'out there' concerning the creation of man. For example, I had one Primitive Baptist preacher tell me, in his distinctive southern hillbilly drawl : "I believe in evolution. The black man evolved from apes. The white man was created by God." So I guess that explains the question of why Bible creation goes back only 6000 yrs, and science says 13.5 billion. The black man goes back to the apes in the gap age, while the white man was created 6000 yrs ago. There. The gap in Genesis answers all the discrepancies between the Bible and science. Amen hallelujah. Cognitive dissonance becomes cognitive consonance. Shalom. Peace is found in the valley.
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12-16-2016, 08:41 PM | #1006 | |
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I may as well believe there's a monster under my bed. I guess all the fire and brimstone sermons I heard growing up in the Southern Baptist church anaesthetised me, or maybe I should say inoculated me to all that spirit and spooks talk. Still, I have the book in Kindle and would like some sources, like page numbers, or something. Evangelical seems well sourced in it, and apparently you too. Come help this old fart that read Pember way back in my LC days. I guess I could search the book myself. Well I did a quick search in the book for 'dinosaurs' and 'pre-Adamic,' and found nothing. Help this dummy please.
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12-16-2016, 08:48 PM | #1007 | |
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12-16-2016, 10:24 PM | #1008 | |
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There is Pember as Ohio mentioned but also "Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee which is largely just paraphrasing Pember. Nee writes: These demons or spirits probably were a preadamic race who inhabited the former world. They either assisted Satan in rebellion or else they followed him afterwards. And thus they were destroyed by God by their being disembodied. In modern times the gap theory can be found in writings of people such as Billy Graham, John Hagee, Jimmy Swaggart and Benny Hinn who believe in it. This book by Benny Hinn is basically presenting the gap theory: http://www.bennyhinn.org/shop/prophecy/angels-and-demons/ It was in the audio version of this book that Benny Hinn discussed dinosaurs. So we could say that all of these preachers are extra-biblical because they believe in the gap theory. |
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12-17-2016, 11:05 AM | #1009 | |
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Back in those days, when I came from Michigan to visit family and friends in Kentucky, none knew anything about hippies, or their music. I came down and brought the music. I became friends with one of my cousin's paramours (they eventually married) and turned him onto the Moodies. He instantly fell in love with them. Since then he went thru similar life changes as I religion wise. 'Cept he went thru becoming a fanatical Independent (Consevative) Baptist Church Christian, believing every word in the Bible was the very words of God, and I went thru the local church, believing the same thing but with the true interpretation of those words - haha. Down thru the years we've had many disagreements -- to say the least - I was in the true church, he wasn't ... haha -- 'cept for one thing, he always thought of me as the one that turned him onto the Moody Blues. All those years and all those changes, he never stopped enjoying the Moodies. He and I still consider listening to the Moodies a enriching spiritual experience ; turn it up, lay back, close your eyes, and go on a inner spiritual journey with the Moodies. Anyway bro Ohio, you mentioned "all your questions are answered by the gap," or some such, and the Moodies came to mind. Thanks.
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12-17-2016, 11:18 AM | #1010 | |
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_________________________________ I see you have started to quote Donald J. Repeat after me, "we will build the wall."
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12-17-2016, 12:41 PM | #1011 | ||
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And by the way, all y'all evolution deniers, let's just say, evolution was true during those gap days, during the pre-Adamic days, surely. There ; Another cognitive consonance found, between the Bible and science. Hallelujah!
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12-17-2016, 01:17 PM | #1012 | |
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What say ye?
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12-17-2016, 02:23 PM | #1013 | |
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I can't scientifically prove it, and it's not told in the Bible as to how the first creation -- that pesky gap period -- came about, only wild imagination required to fill that gap. So I say : BOTH bro Ohio BOTH. Does that suit yer fancy? What say ye? But I get it. Evolution is disappointing. I think a third arm would be useful, and eyes in the back of my head. What's the deal evolution? What say YEEEEEEE? If you're such a big deal surely you can talk. Or did you make us to do your talking fer ya? And look what you ended up with. Evolution, you are a failure. Evolution causes evil. But somehow escapes the POE. Why? How? It escapes the POE but God doesn't. Why? How? I call, NOT FAIR.
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12-17-2016, 05:21 PM | #1014 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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12-17-2016, 07:17 PM | #1015 | ||
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Another brother I knew, also a PhD, and from MIT, felt that he could not accept such a compromise, saying evolution is evolution, whether we ascribe the "chance" changes to God or not. Lots of smart folks here, way brighter than I, will never come to an agreement, so I have no delusions about convincing you or others. John's Gospel opens up saying that "In the beginning was the Word, who was God, and was with God; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being." I for one am going with that. I'd rather trust Jesus than thousands of arguing scientists. I figure if I'm wrong, it hasn't cost me a thing. The infinite odds required for chance evolution to occur are not worth the risk. The problem I have with embracing evolution is simple. Most of those who do feel it excludes the possibility of the existence of God. Basically it goes like this: if we evolved, then we were not created. If we were not created, then God does not exist. If God does not exist, then there is no after life. If there is no after life, then we are not accountable to anyone. This concerns me. What say ye?
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12-17-2016, 10:36 PM | #1016 | |||||
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If God is so concerned, to be up into everyone's business, why isn't He up into the business of the POE? He cares about everyone's little sins, but completely overlooks, or turns a blind eye, to the POE? That's not very god like. What think ye?
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12-18-2016, 01:28 AM | #1017 | |
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12-18-2016, 12:31 PM | #1018 | |
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It all starts out with one premise, that, the Bible is the very word of God and is true. Like Nee stated, science can be questioned, but the Bible is beyond question. So now that science seems to be a truer revelation than those from ancient Biblical days, let's just claim that not only is the Bible a book of science, but also claim that demonology and theology are sciences as well. Then, cognitive consonance for Bible worshipers is found again. All this proves is that, in the battle between the Bible and science, science is winning ... even in the minds of the Bible worshipers.
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12-18-2016, 02:35 PM | #1019 | |
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"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the experts. Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? God has turned the wisdom of the world into nonsense, hasn't He? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe."
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12-18-2016, 03:31 PM | #1020 | |
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12-19-2016, 07:00 AM | #1021 | ||
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1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men One reason I have a problem with God as depicted in the OT is because I can't think of God in that way. But Paul points out that God has a foolish side. That answers a lot of my problems with the OT, and explains the POE. Thanks bro. Some new cognitive consonance achieved. Screw those scientists.
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12-19-2016, 07:19 AM | #1022 | |
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Have a happy holiday! And, as Trump would say, "Merry Christmas."
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12-19-2016, 07:35 PM | #1023 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That call was probably contrived. I had already been sharing lots of testimonies in Houston concerning the stones, Ray Graver probably relayed this to WL, it was at the same time he was writing his book. But as a result of that call I put together a 20 page report on the 12 stones.
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12-20-2016, 07:06 AM | #1024 | |
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12-20-2016, 06:08 PM | #1025 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What science allows is for observations and predictions about the natural world. And many natural things involve probabilities. How are you better than science for disliking reality? |
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12-20-2016, 10:14 PM | #1026 | |
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Many natural things exhibit chaos and randomness. But chaos and randomness cannot create new things. |
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12-21-2016, 07:16 AM | #1027 | |
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Might I suggest ya copy this response there ... I'd do it, but don't want to thwart yer free will.
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12-24-2016, 05:14 PM | #1028 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That's exactly what the stories of YHWH defeating Leviathan in the Hebrew Bible represent: how God brought order to chaos, much as we now understand that natural law brings orderly structure to the universe that would be chaotic without it.
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12-28-2016, 08:46 AM | #1029 | |
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So once again God is behind the problem of evil, and one or more of His Omni's are in question.
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12-29-2016, 06:40 AM | #1030 | |
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"In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth," is a summary of the chapter. "the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." describes the state of things before YHWH begins to create the universe. "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." is YHWH's first act of creation.
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12-29-2016, 07:43 AM | #1031 | |||
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More definitely it was an act of restoration.
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12-29-2016, 10:32 AM | #1032 | ||||
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Obviously it's my interpretation. But, there long history of orthodox Christians interpreting the text that way prior to Chalmers who was reacting to geological evidence of deep time. That's your interpretation. Or, more accurately the gap creationist interpretation. What it has in common with the interpretation I am now suggesting is that it describes YHWH ordering chaos. Pember himself notes that many of the ancient cosmogonies describe creation as an emergence of order from chaos. Quote:
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12-29-2016, 08:17 PM | #1033 | |
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This tradition you speak of, that the Hebrew and Greek texts derived from, originated where? I'm wondering, were the Hebrews and Greeks drawing from Egyptian tradition? Sorry for the intrusion.
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12-30-2016, 06:09 AM | #1034 | |
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But that is not what speaking not being as being means. If I give you ten words there are 3,628,800 ways to combine these words. The fact that you are the first person to combine them a certain way is not equivalent to creating something out of nothing. There is not anyone who creates stuff out of nothing "everyday". |
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12-30-2016, 08:33 AM | #1035 | |
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12-30-2016, 09:28 AM | #1036 |
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12-30-2016, 10:49 AM | #1037 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
You get a gold star. But okay, since chaos is considered to be of pre-existence, did it, does it, pre-exist God? Or did God create it?
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12-30-2016, 12:40 PM | #1038 | ||
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The creation story entitled the Enuma Elish was written in Babylon in the 7th century BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1 It's the story of how the male sky god Marduk battled against the older female sea monster Tiamat. Marduk shot Tiamat with arrows and then crushed her head. [He "crushed the head of the serpent." Sound familiar?] Tiamat represented the dark depths of the sea. [Compare with Genesis 1:2's "formless void and darkness [that] covered the face of the deep"] To a patriarchal society like Babylon a strong female deity like Tiamat was a perfect personification of evil. The Canaanites had their Baalhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal who "smote Lotan the ancient dragon" a "twisting serpent" with seven heads. The name Lotan is related to the Hebrew word "Leviathan" who is in turn related to the seven headed dragon of Revelation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotan The Epic of Gilgamesh is another creation myth about a hero god conquering chaos. The earliest Gilgamesh stories date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur around 2100–2000 BCE. Gilgamesh overcomes the monster Huwawa. Although often compared with the Noah flood story, The Gilgamesh bears striking similarity to other creation myths and clearly symbolizes the world order or the cosmos overcoming chaos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh The emerging civilizations of the Near East intuited that evil originated in the primeval darkness which had preceded their world order i.e chaos threatening cosmos. These myths were corporate expressions of that intuition. I find that understandable; don't you? Quote:
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12-30-2016, 01:16 PM | #1039 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
No. It is a product of rebellion. God created a universe in which people (or creatures) would choose to worship and obey Him. In such a universe there is peace and harmony when they choose to worship and obey. But since it is a choice they can also choose to rebel, which is what Satan did, and as a result there was chaos.
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12-30-2016, 08:08 PM | #1040 | |
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So according to this answer, chaos is a product of rebellion. But wouldn't that mean that, if there existed rebellion, or that ability, chaos was already existing before the rebellion? It was pre-spiced in, so to speak. Let's not mention the idea that God did all this to be obeyed and worshipped. Glossing over that for now, let me just asked this, and you can clear me up if I get it wrong. Okay, at first there was just one thing, if I may call it that : God. There was nothing else. Not even a vacuum, or waste and void. Just God. And let's go with 'speaking' cuz it's handy. So the lone nothing-else-God, out of the nothing that itself didn't exist, said "Let there be." We don't need to go into all the details, we can see what "He' has 'spoken' into being, or enough of it anyway. My point is that, God spoke all this out of nothing. At that point nothing existed, not even nothing, and out of that no nothing, came all of this, both good and bad, chaos and order, good and evil, and even Lucifer. It all has one source. And that is God. Am I right so far?
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12-31-2016, 04:13 AM | #1041 | |
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Is the explanation of the Big Bang alternative really more acceptable? But, that's a different thread, so back to the POE, why do you have so much difficulty accepting that creation is not "perfect," only God is? The description of the creation, status, and splendor of Lucifer implies perfection on some level, yet by possessing a free will, all his incredible assets proved dangerous for the rest of creation. The bigger question would be why would God take such a risk? I propose redemption is the ultimate answer. The Lamb slain before the beginning of time, before the creation of the world. (Revel. 13.8) Reject that and this thread will never end. The POE then will be the neverending conundrum.
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12-31-2016, 12:38 PM | #1042 | |||
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That aside, Egypt was around at least 2000 yrs before the book of Genesis was written. So the book, and all the writings of the Jews (the whole 66 book Bible) could not help but be influenced not just by Egyptian mythology, but by all the surrounding nations and cultures. In short, their stories didn't just drop out of heaven, like many inerrantists believe they came from today. I've been looking into the development of monotheism. The Jews weren't the first to cook it up. That honor goes to : Amenophis IV (Akhenaten), was an Ancient Egyptian pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty who ruled for 17 years and died perhaps in 1336 BC or 1334 BC. Early Hebrews were around then, and could have picked up the idea from Amenophis IV. They were certainly exposed to it. And their monotheism is just about as aggressively exclusive (Nee-Lee-Local church-Darby-et al) as the monotheism of king Amenophis IV. There's evidence there that the Hebrew stories were influenced by their association with the Egyptians. Which means, the Hebrews stole more than just gold, jewelry, cooking utensils, silver ornaments, and clothing from the Egyptians. Quote:
"The Enűma Eliš was recognized as being related to the Hebrew Genesis creation account from its first publication (Smith 1876). In one interpretation, Genesis 1:1-3 can be taken as describing the state of chaos immediately before God's act of creation:[5]" Quote:
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01-08-2017, 06:20 PM | #1043 | |
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01-09-2017, 12:26 PM | #1044 | |
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I'm far from being an expert on Egyptian history, religion, and/or mythology. I depend on Egyptologists for any and all info on ancient Egypt. Right now I'm reading "Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the rise of Monotheism" by the Egyptologist Jan Assmann. But before offering anything on Egypt and the POE I'd like to offer this nugget I just came across: In discussing canonization of holy writ, Assmann (sic) points out that with canonization of holy texts : The prophet gave way to the scribe. The interpreter of Scripture replaced the interpreter of the will of God. Text and professional philological competence replaced authority based on vision and divine commission." ~ Jan Assmann. Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the Rise of Monotheism (George L. Mosse Series) (Kindle Locations 1341-1343). Kindle Edition. In other words, The Bible replaced the movement of God on the earth, by replacing and usurping the Spirit. In my words : The Bible killed God. Now all we've got is : a book "about" God ... and what God use to do. Sorry, I've waxed tangential. Back to the POE with next post.
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01-17-2017, 08:53 AM | #1045 | |
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01-17-2017, 09:19 AM | #1046 | |
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Evolutionary psychology explains the "Sin Nature" in terms of natural selection. Our brains evolved on the African savannas. But, with respect to the theological POE does that make any difference to the free will defense? It does insofar as evolution implies biological and psychological determinism. It is what Kant called an "antimony" i.e." the equally rational but contradictory results of applying to the universe of pure thought the categories or criteria of reason that are proper to the universe of sensible perception or experience (phenomena). Empirical reason cannot here play the role of establishing rational truths because it goes beyond possible experience and is applied to the sphere of that which transcends it." Wikipedia In other words, it's a mystery. Science and the Bible not withstanding, we humans remain mysteries to ourselves.
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01-17-2017, 12:50 PM | #1047 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Life eats life. What a mystery ; that life is it's own evil. It's an ouroboros. The life that manages to avoid the evil of life, by say, removing from the food chain of life, wins. Still life has to avoid the evil of other life -- out to eat it -- to remain living. Then maybe life can have the leisure time to contemplate the mystery of its existence ... while hopefully holding evil of all kinds at bay. This has been going on since the beginning of life. The POE was born when life was born.
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01-17-2017, 08:21 PM | #1048 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Self consciousness is a fall from pre-conscious oneness with nature. To exist as a conscious living entity is to understand that you are separate from that oneness. You see that you are sinful and that the natural world is evil. Religion is about getting back to the oneness. But, since we have seen that nature has an evil side, the oneness must not be that, it must be something higher, something perfect, something "omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent"---the ultimate source of everything.
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01-21-2017, 05:50 PM | #1049 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But the reality is that our "stability" is not static, it is the stability of a bicycle in motion. Every little creature from the single cell all the way to the top of the pyramid is in a constant flux and motion. 99% of their ancestors have gone extinct, and in a short period of time 99% of them will be extinct as well. This is the way it is, this is how we got here. You can view it as cold and cruel, or you can view it as awesome that you and your ancestors got this far. I heard a story from a caddie who caddied for Greg Norman and Tom Watson. He said that when Greg Norman hit a long drive, straight down the fairway that then rolled into a divot he would turn to the caddie and say "can you believe my bad luck". When Tom Watson did the same thing he would say "Watch this". |
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01-22-2017, 08:06 AM | #1050 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Until you ask why God does it. Then it becomes a problem for those that believe in a loving God. The existential problem of the POE is a glass half full/half empty kinda thing. The existential problem of the POE and God can't be a glass half full or half empty thing. With God the glass has to be always full. The POE brings God down ... to at least three quarters full/three quarters empty.
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01-22-2017, 10:38 AM | #1051 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I'm interested in how Biblical theodicies changed over time. The Book of Daniel seems to mark a radical change is eschatology. Wikipedia says this about the dating of Daniel:
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That places the writing of Daniel around the 2nd century BC when Jewish apocalyptic literature flourished. Older sections of the First Book of Enoch(mainly in the Book of the Watchers) date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC. [Fahlbusch E., Bromiley G.W. The Encyclopedia of Christianity: P–Sh page 411, ISBN 0-8028-2416-1 (2004)]. The Book of Jubilees was probably written around 160–150 BC. [ VanderKam, "Jubilees, Book of" in L. H. Schiffman and J. C. VanderKam (eds.), Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Oxford University Press (2000), Vol. I, p. 435.] The Life of Adam and Eve also known as The Apocalypse of Moses is supposed to have been written around the first century AD. [Johnson, M.D. (1985). "Life of Adam and Eve, a new translation and introduction". In Charlesworth, J.H. the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. 2. ISBN 0-385-18813-7.] The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls so it probably dates from somewhere between the 2nd century BCE and prior to the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70 CE when the Qumran community disappeared. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of...ns_of_Darkness My point is that the New Testament has a similar apocalyptic eschatology to these writings. There is evidence that the NT authors were aware of these and similar apocalyptic material and influenced by it. In terms of a theodicy to address the problem of evil, the apocalyptic writings of that time including the New Testament attribute the existence of evil to demonic powers. In this regard they are distinct from most of the earlier writings of the Hebrew Bible.
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01-22-2017, 05:58 PM | #1052 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-22-2017, 06:37 PM | #1053 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-22-2017, 07:42 PM | #1054 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-22-2017, 08:06 PM | #1055 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
duplicate post
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01-22-2017, 08:11 PM | #1056 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Like you said, ZNP : "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." No one connected Trump to apocalypticism but you.
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01-23-2017, 04:33 AM | #1057 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Donald Trump [Discourse of Salvation] “Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential. This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.” [rage at a perceived humiliation] “We’ve made other countries rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon. One by one, the factories shuttered and left our shores, with not even a thought about the millions upon millions of American workers left behind. The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed across the entire world. But that is the past. And now we are looking only to the future. We assembled here today are issuing a new decree to be heard in every city, in every foreign capital, and in every hall of power. From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land. From this moment on, it’s going to be America First.” [conspiracism] “For too long, a small group in our nation’s Capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost. Washington flourished – but the people did not share in its wealth. Politicians prospered – but the jobs left, and the factories closed. The establishment protected itself, but not the citizens of our country.” [We are God's agents] “January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again.” The activists claim: 'we are God's agents and have to bring about the apocalyptic transformation.' When they believe that the apocalypse calls for cataclysmic destruction, they deem they can 'save the world by destroying it.' Often their first and most feared targets are Jews and Judaism. "Hitler's aim for a thousand year 'Reich' - a millennial kingdom - represented the quintessence of the most negative aspects of violent, apocalyptic action. Nazism exploded from a toxic cocktail of conspiracism, rage at a perceived humiliation of the German people, and complete contempt for human life, all the while using the discourse of the salvation of the Aryan race to win over converts. It could thereby inspire 'modern' people, capable of handling sophisticated technology, to engage in the most inhumane activities with a good conscience. The Holocaust was an apocalyptic deed." (http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-24.htm) I think it is very clear that I am not the first to make this connection. Anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler has made this connection. The marches on Saturday were stunning in their scope (worldwide -- major cities and small towns. My sister was in Denver, my brother in Boston, a friend in NY, and my Mom in a small town in upstate NY also had a march). As the day approaches we will have those, like yourself, who bury their head in the sand. This is a person who has advocated the use of torture, blowing up families to "get the bad guys", and grabbing women by the genitals. I don't think you can rule out inhuman actions and violence as a possibility. Or am I the first person to be offended and take notice of this? I mean, if 1.5 million people were at the inauguration I think it is equally factual to say that 1.5 million have noted these signs. |
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01-23-2017, 10:45 AM | #1058 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
ZNP---I was referring to this thread. Harold wasn't referring to Trump nor was anyone else.
But, thanks for supplying an example of hysterical apocalyptic speculation. I thought Obama was the Anti-Christ. Now it's Trump? Wait, what about Bill Clinton? Wait, what about George W.H. Bush with his New World Order? This kind of speculation has been going on for a couple thousand years. The historical church grew tired of it and turned to focusing on heaven when you die. That trend had already started by 100AD. The Gospel of John is devoid of apocalypticism. But, during times of rapid social upheaval like the one we are in apocalypticism appeals to people particularly when their anxiety evokes a need for an instant immediate answer. Apocalyptic literature like the Book of Revelation is vague enough that definite identification would be impossible. Yet it is endlessly enticing to a certain mind-set. Then too there is the underlying intuition based on human finitude that we are doomed. Based on science, the sun is an average size star that eventually flame out and go extinct. If we haven't already destroyed ourselves or been destroyed by an asteroid, that will do it. But, of course, by then we might have an interstellar Ark. Hope springs eternal.
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01-23-2017, 11:25 AM | #1059 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I have two questions:
1) Why did the New Testament explode with apocalypticism? 2) Is it related to the POE?
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01-23-2017, 11:36 AM | #1060 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What distinguishes ISIS, KKK, and Hitler from the rest is their willingness to resort to extreme violence and destruction. I think Trump has certainly given people reason for concern and to be extremely vigilant, but at this point there is nothing to suggest more than a need for concern. If you are in the military and the commander in chief has said that he will order you to torture prisoners in violation of the Geneva conventions, that is without a doubt a concern. These conventions were written in response to Hitler, so it would certainly be "Hitleresque" to violate this treaty in this way. Why the mock surprise, I am pretty sure that 1.5 million people have already realized this. |
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01-23-2017, 07:55 PM | #1061 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
ZNP, I'll give you this much, Trump seems to think he is the messiah. I saw the video of him speaking at CIA Headquarters. He said
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01-23-2017, 08:13 PM | #1062 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Trump supports Israel, and in the minds of many Christians that is all that matters.
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01-23-2017, 08:26 PM | #1063 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Are not there many scripture to support this support?
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01-23-2017, 08:28 PM | #1064 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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An even more basic problem is why an all-powerful God would allow Satan and his demons to reign in the first place. The free will defense really doesn't answer the question because with Satan and his demonic hordes plus our unchosen inherited sin nature, the cards are stacked against us. The New Testament answer seems to be that God stacked the deck against us so that there would be only one viable choice--accept Jesus Christ His Son or suffer for eternity. Do I have that right? Is that the dilemma an all-powerful, all-wise, omni-benevolent God would set before an individual? And, if so, why?
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01-23-2017, 09:57 PM | #1065 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 05:11 AM | #1066 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Perhaps ZNP has some Biblical "antibiotics" that could help you. . At least when Trump mentions the name of God, he refers to the Lord Jesus. The last guy had allah on his mind.
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01-24-2017, 06:00 AM | #1067 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 08:00 AM | #1068 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This is evil. Don't know if this politic stuff belongs here, but this all in for Israel thing, among Evangelicals, proves that, the Bible can produce the POE.
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01-24-2017, 08:11 AM | #1069 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 09:09 AM | #1070 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
A couple of Psalms? Maybe another OT verse?
How many are in the NT? And how many of those OT verses are repeated or underscored in the NT? I am not in favor of abandoning Israel. But I am not so sold on the claim that there is blessing in the NT age for the support of Israel due to an OT verse. Are there really "many" supporting this? Is it really true that "every promise in the book is mine"?
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01-24-2017, 10:58 AM | #1071 | ||||||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
As I pointed out below, one of apocalyptic texts that influenced the New Testament writers was The Book of Enoch. Enoch is quoted in Jude 14:
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The Watcher Angels were led by an angel named Smyaza. They taught humans all kind of wicked things including astrology and the art of enchantment. They taught women to wear make-up. According to Enoch The fallen watcher angels, their offspring the Nephalim and the humans that follow them will face Judgment and be punished. The Nephalim are described this way: Quote:
The Book of Enoch is also linked by some to First Peter. Quote:
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01-24-2017, 11:54 AM | #1072 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But doesn't politics and political party's expose our dualistic thinking ; a white hat/black hat ; a black and white ; a good and evil ; a God and Satan ; kind of thinking? Why do we fall for that? Dualism creates evil actions, or at least evil thoughts, toward "the other," and does not represent the love Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount. Jesus could have led a band of insurrectionists against Rome but he didn't. Jesus could have gotten into the politics of his day but he didn't. Jesus was a man of peace (the Jesus of the gospels, that is, not so much the Jesus of Revelation). Jesus was an apocalypticist. He believed not in violence but that God would intervene in history, to settle the score with Rome, and ring in His kingdom. But it didn't. So : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." Still today believers are waiting. But Jesus never expected that there would ever be a 21st century. He thought God would intervene shortly. Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. To Jesus, the POE was soon to be done away with, by God's intervention into history, in his generation.
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01-24-2017, 12:12 PM | #1073 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So coming decades after Jesus, near the end of the first century, we have Revelation, that opens up in the very first verse saying : "things which must shortly come to pass." And ends with, "Surely I come quickly." What means "shortly?" And what means "quickly?"
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01-24-2017, 12:14 PM | #1074 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The blessing of the NT age is spiritual and heavenly in Christ. Our covenant as a people of faith is a better covenant, with better blessings. Our covenant with God was secured on the cross by the shedding of the blood of the Lamb of God. The New Covenant differs from the Old in one remarkable way -- we are blessed by enduring unrighteousness and persecution, even martyrdom. We are even commanded to love and forgive our enemies while they put us to death. But God has not forgotten His promises to Israel. Soon the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. God will restore Israel, her land, her temple, and her sacrifices. Personally I believe that the most significant event of the 21st century occurred 2 days before Christmas, when Obama surreptitiously orchestrated U.N. Resolution 2334. Apparently the US Gov't stabbed Israel in the back, but I believe God will use it for good. That corrupt resolution by a worthless organization removed once for all the possibility of trading land for peace for a two-state solution, and also stole the land of the temple mount with the "wailing wall" from Israel and gave it to their enemies. Israel will never permit this. I also think that this Resolution will one day be used by many nations, under the auspices of the UN, to attack Israel at Armageddon, causing their Messiah to physically return again to the Mount of Olives.
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01-24-2017, 12:26 PM | #1075 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 12:30 PM | #1076 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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And Jesus quoted David on the cross as He became a curse on the cross for your sins.
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01-24-2017, 01:10 PM | #1077 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Every decision Trump will make, some based on the Bible, some based on stupidity, will cause a problem of evil. He is basically making the USA into a North Korea - kill trade deals, build a wall, under the mantra of self-sufficiency and isolationism. We all know how self-sufficiency worked out for the North Koreans.
It is clear to me that Trump is trying to bring about the next financial crisis as quickly as possible, he is trying to cause evil. This has been the agenda of the Global Elite's for some time, and Trump is part of the Global Elite for sure. A global reset is the only way to fix the world economy, and America's. There is a book by Jim Rickards: The Road to Ruin: The Global Elites’ Secret Plan for the Next Financial Crisis https://lfb.org/ice-9-jim-rickards-r...-ways-protect/ http://www.globalresearch.ca/indias-...lution/5561601 |
01-24-2017, 01:25 PM | #1078 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Trump wants trade deals that benefit the USA. I guess that makes him the next kim-jong-un. Maybe you should stick to defending the LCM. Trump is a patriot, a friend of Israel, and an DC outsider, perhaps that is why he is so hated.
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01-24-2017, 01:33 PM | #1079 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 01:48 PM | #1080 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You are speaking of one faction of the Global Elites, Hillary and co. But Trump is from the other faction. He is friend of Israel for a reason. Look up Trump's connection to the Rothschilds and who supported his business dealings and his 30 year campaign to be President. Trump is not supporting Israel just because he read how much God loves Israel in the Bible. It is because his friends own most of it. Most if not all Republicans are connected in one way or another to the Rothschilds and for that reason typically support Israel. Trump has already proved himself to be a liar on many things. He portrays himself as being anti-global elite and anti-establishment, and he is where it concerns one faction. But that does not mean he is not part of the global elite - you would have to research his financiers and backers over the last decades to see what he is really about. |
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01-24-2017, 02:24 PM | #1081 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Many believers prayed for this election. Do you think our heavenly Father gave them a scorpion?
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01-24-2017, 02:40 PM | #1082 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
It's possible. The Israelite's insisted on having a king and God begrudgingly gave it to them.
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01-24-2017, 03:20 PM | #1083 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 03:23 PM | #1084 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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In God's point of view human history is about 6 days long. From that view perspective his coming will be "shortly" and "quickly".
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01-24-2017, 03:27 PM | #1085 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This approach is precisely the approach the Chinese have used with us for years. You need to read "the Art of the Deal" if you want to get an insight on what he is doing. "The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead." (Donald Trump). He is going to renegotiate our trade with China and instead of appearing desperate he will appear as though he is set on protectionism (that may seem stupid to you, but catastrophic to China). You should also be aware that he did take over a boondoggle in NY, the ice skating rink in Central park, and he got it done on time and under budget. This is also what he is doing with Abortion. He has to make 2 Supreme court nominees, taking this strong anti abortion stance now gives him leverage in negotiating with senators and congressmen. He can appear to compromise with them on his nominees in exchange for them to work with him on some of his other issues. In the end the pro death camp can come away feeling like "it could have been worse" whereas the pro life will say "hey, we couldn't have done better than this".
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01-24-2017, 03:29 PM | #1086 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
He is definitely focused on his "economic battle" with China. As a result he cannot afford to have too many battles, hence embracing Evangelicals, Israel, Russia, Unions, etc. In this respect the situation is not that different from Cyrus.
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01-24-2017, 03:31 PM | #1087 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 05:09 PM | #1088 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-24-2017, 05:26 PM | #1089 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The Chinese are much more subtle when working with the US because so far all of the US leaders have been very poor negotiators, though for some that was by design. We gave China very favorable deals as an incentive for them to make the difficult transition from communism to capitalism. We have been subsidizing this transition. So I don't blame Nixon or Kissinger. But, let's be real, the Chinese are not going to abandon capitalism now, and they certainly don't need us to subsidize their economy anymore. But have the Chinese really been so subtle when dealing with Taiwan or Japan?
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01-24-2017, 05:49 PM | #1090 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Obama promised a "purple" nation without partisanship, color blind to race -- instead we got "black lives matter" leaders with daily access to the White House. Police officers gunned down for their uniform. Obama promised complete bi-partisan transparency -- instead we got legislation without Republicans even allowed to read it. Obama promised he would always have Israel's back -- instead he stabbed them in the back. His final executive action was sending money to the Palestinians. Obama promised health insurance savings -- instead he pushed the law thru the SCOTUS claiming it was a tax increase along. Obama gave us Stimulus pork barrel projects, Operation Fast and Furious, IRS targeting conservatives, Benghazi murders, private servers, Pigford, NSA spying, trading Taliban generals for the traitor Bergdahl, release of Gitmo terrorists, funding Iranian nukes, polluting Colorado rivers, VA death lists, lavish spending, secret service parties, maximum pain on Americans when the House tried to reduce spending, Planned Parenthood body parts for sale, etc. Trump: I have never seen a President take such decisive action -- exactly matching campaign promises. Imagine that -- a President whose campaign promises actually meant something to him. How refreshing! How much better for the country to have a president who owns golf courses than to have one who loves to play on them! So the liberals have decided to attack his wife and children. They pay their professional rioters to disrupt and scare off the Inauguration guests, and then claim few people even showed up to watch. Obama removes the bust of Churchill, but then Trump is falsely accused of removing MLK. Deception, it's all about deception. And even those who claim to be Evangelical Christians get hung up on his distasteful comments. That's the real POE.
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01-24-2017, 05:57 PM | #1091 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Sounds more like the politics at LSM than currently at the White House.
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01-24-2017, 06:00 PM | #1092 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Our GDP is $16.7 Trillion in 2013 so we are talking about losing less than 1% of our economy. No doubt losing the cheap imports would cause a certain level of inflation here in the US. But, and this is important to understand 3d printers and robotics are going a long way to replacing cheap labor. If instead of one factory a company had a number of smaller factories spread around the country with 3d printers they might be able to offset the cheap Chinese labor with “just in time” manufacturing that takes place as the order is made, quicker delivery and less transportation costs. By comparison China’s GDP is $10 Trillion, so $483 billion would be 5%. If they lost this they would have 0 growth in their economy and it would be a minor miracle if they didn’t go into a recession if not full blown depression. But without growth they cannot grow their capital, and without the capital they cannot invest in the high tech 3d printers and robotics we just discussed. The only option they would have to “stop” Trump would be to go nuclear and cash all of the US debt they have amassed. That would definitely put the world into a depression. That would be worst case scenario for US, a return to the good old days of FDR. But for China it would be a return to the good old days described in “The Good Earth”: famine and cannibalism. The Chinese leaders are still very much aware of the cultural revolution, I feel very confident that they have a very healthy fear of the worst case scenario. Besides, Trump could threaten to declare bankruptcy which would mean they would get pennies on the dollar for their debt. Instead, they could opt for the best case scenario. Renegotiate, primarily by letting their money be accurately valued. That would result in a more level playing field for the rest of the world, a better standard of living for many Chinese, lower growth in China, a relative devaluing of our debt, etc. It would be difficult for them to achieve world domination, but it would still be a lot better than eating your neighbors kid for dinner. Who would sweat more, China at the thought that we would replace them, or us over the inflation and short term loss of cheap goods at Walmart? Also, the people who voted for Trump would be the ones getting those nice jobs with the 3d printers and robots. I think Trump can pull this off, but we are definitely heading into some very rough seas and it is going to be thrilling to watch.
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01-24-2017, 06:42 PM | #1093 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Taking action is one thing, taking the right action is another. Rather they take time to consider the actions than rush headstrong into it. That's what Bush did when deciding to take out Saddam, based upon no or faulty intelligence. We all know what that resulted in.
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01-24-2017, 07:17 PM | #1094 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
And Gen 12:3 says "thee" and I don't think applies to Israel to all times. That's just stretching and torturing that verse way far too out of shape.
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01-24-2017, 07:25 PM | #1095 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
If you are in a boat and a storm is coming you have two choices 1. You can run from it if you have enough time to find a safe port. otherwise 2. You have to hit it head on. There is no other choice. You cannot run with a storm, the waves will carry you into the rocks. You cannot hit the waves at an angle, they will flip your boat. Some of these monster waves are 60 feet high. Well, this storm with China is going to be a monster. Let's be realistic, we had two possible captains -- Clinton or Trump. Clinton is someone who was running from the waves. She (Obama and Bill) were willing to give away the store rather than deal with this. They were "wringing their hands" with China but it was clear they weren't going to tackle this head on. Also she was incapable of bluffing, there was way too much track record for anyone to believe that. With Trump will he be willing to declare bankruptcy? Will he really slap 45% tariff on them? Does he really think the US can move manufacturing back to the US? No one knows, but so far it seems he plans on following up on every promise he made. When I lived in Taiwan I was impressed by how close to the edge the Chinese live. Every summer they use the entire military to bring the harvest in from the country side to the cities. They have to co opt the trains to make this work. Just a slight disruption in that transportation results in food shortages in the city. If they were to go to war with Taiwan there would be massive disruption to that supply line (the Taiwanese are already on the mainland in sleeper cells). My point is that Chinese leaders put on a strong face but they hang on by a thread and they know it. Shutting down $486 billion worth of business, even temporarily, is not an option for them. We are concerned about soup kitchens, they are concerned about the famines you read of in history books. Are you really going to compare the "faulty intelligence" of WMD's with the intelligence involved in GDP, World Trade, and Trade deficits? No one is rushing headlong, this was something that should have been dealt with 8 years ago. It would not have been appropriate for Bush, right after 911.
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01-24-2017, 07:33 PM | #1096 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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It seems to me, and again maybe you can clear this up, but if you were to curse Israel that would be equivalent to cursing ourselves. I cannot visualize the Middle East without Israel and by extension the US. Especially since the Bible has laid out a simple path to peace. Why wouldn't we take it?
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01-24-2017, 07:43 PM | #1097 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Bush's failure was hoping to bring democracy to an islamic country.
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01-25-2017, 07:23 AM | #1098 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Here is a link to the text of The Book of Enoch http://www.futurerevealed.com/enoch/BookEnoch.pdf
Key concepts in Enoch are found in the New Testament, including Son of Man, the Chosen One, Paradise, hell, and a coming day of judgment by fire. In Luke 9:35 is an important concept of the Book of Enoch, that of the "Chosen One": "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him." The word translated "beloved" is ἐκλελεγμένος which means The Elect One or The Chosen One, a term found fourteen times in Enoch and is one of the key concepts of the book. Luke understood Jesus of Nazareth to be the Chosen One prophesied in The Book of Enoch. Here, for example is Chapter 45 of the book: —And this is the second Parable concerning those who deny the name of the dwelling-place of the holy and of the Lord of the spirits. 2. They will not ascend to heaven, and will not come on the earth; such will be the portion of the sinners who deny the name of the Lord of the spirits, who are thus preserved to the day of suffering and sorrow. 3. On that day the Chosen One will sit upon the throne of glory, and will choose among their [i.e. men’s] deeds and places without number, and their spirit will become strong in them when they see my Chosen One and those who have called upon my holy and glorious name. 4. And on that day I will cause my Chosen One to dwell among them, and will transform heaven and make it a blessing and a light eternally. 5. And I will transform the earth and make it a blessing, and will cause my chosen ones to dwell thereon; and those who have committed sins and crimes will not step on it. 6. For I have seen and satisfied with peace my just ones, and have placed them before me; but for the sinners there awaits before me a judgment, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.
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01-25-2017, 08:15 AM | #1099 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This seems to be around the time that Judaism was becoming apocalyptic. It's obvious by references in the New Testament that at least some, if not all, the writers of the New Testament were familiar with the book of Enoch. Did the book of Enoch open up the door of apocalypticism, first to the Jews, then to the Christian writers, that has come down to us today? Were the books of Daniel and Revelation influenced by the book of Enoch? I read the book of Enoch some time ago. It looks and smells like Daniel and Revelation. In the end, given the violence in the books, these books are covered up with the POE.
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01-25-2017, 08:43 AM | #1100 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I think our problem is our approach. We will spend any amount to blow things up, yet when it is time to rebuild what then? I think our military should have a sixth branch (instead of a pentagram make it a star of David). This sixth branch should get 1/6th of the Pentagon's budget. It should be the Peace corp. They will have bulldozers, engineers, construction foremen, teachers, etc. They go into so many of these third world countries and they do whatever is necessary. Dig wells, build schools, roads, etc. If we had done this in Iraq it would have been a very different story. We defeated Saddam's army, left everyone unemployed with large stockpile of weapons and then left.
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01-25-2017, 10:00 AM | #1101 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The uprisings in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and almost Syria proved that once a moderate yet strong leader is removed, then in his place a more radical form of islam emerges, not some movement towards democracy.
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01-25-2017, 11:46 AM | #1102 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-25-2017, 11:54 AM | #1103 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Again, I am not suggesting withdrawing support. But I think that we are putting too much importance on something that a secular nation is doing with respect to who we are and what we do as Christians. Quote:
Quote:
As in "this generation will not pass away until . . . ." There have been good reasons to believe in every generation that the time was close, or "soon." I am not saying to despair or to assume that it is not soon. It is best to simultaneously assume both soon and not in my lifetime. Assume soon so that you do not slack-off in diligence in our charge as those of the kingdom. But not in this lifetime that we do not ignore now pining for the great by-and-by in in that miss the charge for this age. While I agree that God has not forgotten his promises to the Children of Israel, whether that translates simply into the support for the modern nation of Israel is not a given. And not forgetting his promise to Israel is not the same as retaining the promise of blessing for those that support the nation of Israel. But whether or not your position on it is correct, I do not see what it really does for me, a believer who is striving to keep my walk according to the Spirit, and bear the image of God in this age. It is quite possible that support for Israel, or at least the position in favor of that, will come from such a life. But I do not see a need to seek out the application of an ancient blessing not repeated in the past 2,400 years and not clearly applicable. And crying out in despair over the actions of someone who is not a Christian (or is at least questionable as to being one) or the actions of a nation is not my charge in this life. My charge is not to make everyone follow my rules without first deciding to follow the Maker of those rules.
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01-25-2017, 12:20 PM | #1104 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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How Israel is treated is one test. How we treat Christ is another test. How we treat His brothers is another test.
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01-25-2017, 12:41 PM | #1105 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But more. Enoch is indeed full of imagery like Daniel and Revelation, and is full of demons and spirits, and apocalyptic themes. In the Hebrew legacy in the OT demons were not so big and prominent as in the book of Enoch. Then, 100 years later this Enoch like demonology continues in the New Testament. So, if Jude was reading Enoch, how many other of the NT writers were reading Enoch? Is that why we find Enoch like demonology in the NT? And also similar apocalyptic themes?
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01-25-2017, 12:47 PM | #1106 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Are these tests, since seeming so important, spelled out clearly in a doctrinal cohesive discourse somewhere in the Bible, or are they of your own making, or that of others?
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01-25-2017, 01:13 PM | #1107 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I already quoted Genesis 12.3 for the first one. I'll let you find the second. The third one is found in Matthew 25.32-46. Perhaps others exist too.
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01-25-2017, 01:41 PM | #1108 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Thanks bro Ohio for additional verses. I must be blind tho. I don't see Gen 12:3 in the verses you provided. Perhaps you made a mistake and led me to the wrong verses. Can you double check it and give me the right verses?
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01-25-2017, 02:20 PM | #1109 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Seems very straightforward. Why didn't you answer my question? For what reason would the US not want to bless Israel?
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01-25-2017, 04:24 PM | #1110 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Do you really see anything that directs the Gentiles (Christians) to make any kind of special deference to the nation of Israel? (from 400BC forward) I find verses that indicate I need to believe in Christ or I am "out." I find instructions that we are to treat all those in Christ like, well, all those in Christ. And that is commonly phrased in such a way as to indicate that those in Christ are part of a family. They used the term "brothers" a lot. I even find that we are supposed to treat any "neighbor" like I would treat myself. Or more accurately stated, love them as I love myself. And since I don't hate myself, I do not rail on them because they (or at least some of them) are sinners — especially those "horrible" sinners. Problem is that I love myself too much to be that harsh on myself, therefore I do not treat them that way. And in doing all of that, I note that if you think the OT rule applies, the only problem was if you curse Abraham or Isaac, or Jacob (Israel) or his children. Blessing them got a blessing. Cursing them got a curse. Doing nothing got . . . what exactly? So not sending them aid . . . do you call that a curse? And all of this is predicated on the presumption that because God said it in the OT it remains true now. One of those "every promise in the book is mine" kind of things. Like the Prayer of Jabez. Is there really any God-ordained principle at work in that? On what basis do we declare that the nation of Israel has actually existed since about 70 AD. Is it definite that the promise carries over to the UN-created country that has existed since about 1948 (and at war from day 1)? Does providing any kind of aid to those various nations surrounding Israel constitute a curse on Israel? (Most all have national laws designed to see the nation of Israel wiped off the earth.) If so, then how does providing aid to Israel actually offset that? Or does it just return us to neutral? Seems to me more like the religious looking for excuses for national problems or national prosperity. But the prosperity of America has gone up and down in cycles since day one. And they are not tied to Israel. Israel wasn't even around most of the life of this country. To what do we blame or credit the more distant past?
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01-25-2017, 04:40 PM | #1111 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
- Romans 15:27 (NIV)
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01-25-2017, 04:49 PM | #1112 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Real Christians, living by the teaches of Jesus, can't support that kind of treatment ... almost like Nazi Germany treat the Jews. When they (Israelis) say, "Never again" they obviously don't mean other people, but only them.
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01-25-2017, 04:59 PM | #1113 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Again, you are seeing things that aren't there. Paul is talking about he saints in Jerusalem, and bringing them money. He's not talking about Israel.
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01-25-2017, 05:07 PM | #1114 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out, so I don't take issue with Israel fighting for their survival. However, even if it was justified at some point, they continued to steal property from the Palestinians long after it was a matter of survival. They moved the Palestinians into refugee camps, put them behind barbed wire and walls, and forced them to live as refugees in their own land and as second class citizens. Partly this is due to very bad stewardship by the Palestinian leadership and the misplaced belief that the surrounding nations would destroy Israel. Still Israel's treatment of this people is not righteous, it is not according to the word of the Bible and they will not have peace until they are obedient to what the Bible says. But I think it would be easy for the US to step in bless Israel, bless the Palestinians, and be blessed as well.
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01-25-2017, 05:16 PM | #1115 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The Palestinians are victims here, but not by the Israelis, rather they are victims of their own evil leaders.
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01-25-2017, 05:19 PM | #1116 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Anyone who reads the history knows that the Palestinians are victims of inept and evil leadership. But that doesn't change the fact that they are victims and the current situation is not righteous. Until we are obedient to what the Bible says there will be no peace.
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01-25-2017, 06:45 PM | #1117 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
There's no distinction made in the scripture. Paul went to the temple. You can't distinguish Israel from the saints here.
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01-25-2017, 08:03 PM | #1118 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-25-2017, 08:13 PM | #1119 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Puleeeese. God help us! Save us from abusive MOTA's!
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01-26-2017, 08:23 AM | #1120 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I was born the year Israel became a state. All my life I've heard from Christians : "Israel, Israel, Israel." (I'm hearing it now.) If it were just love for Israel it wouldn't be a problem, but it's way way more than that. To them if you don't support Israel you're not a Christian. Which is strange, coming from gentiles. Jesus came to the Jews. They rejected him. It went to the gentiles. The church is now the real Israel. Not the state of Israel. That's clearly of men, not God. That can be confirmed by the history of the founding of Israel. So why this obsession with Israel, that goes beyond love for it? Example: I have a cousin here. We've always gotten along marvelously. We use to talk everyday, and meet for lunch from time to time. He's a Sunday school teacher at a Southern Baptist church. I attended his class a few times. He was kind enough to tell me that I didn't belong in the Baptist church. That wasn't a problem for him. One day we got on the subject of Israel. When he found I wasn't a blind supporter of Israel he quoted Gen. 12:3 and that was the end of our friendship. He won't talk to me any more. I guess to him if I don't support Israel I'm worse than an atheist. He's fine if I not a Baptist, but not fine with me not being a blind supporter of Israel. Gen. 12:3 has made him superstitious about Israel. And that to me is an obsessive fetish.
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01-26-2017, 09:01 AM | #1121 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I don't like the word fetish either. So I'm changing it to "obsessive bewitching." In that, Christians have been bewitch by what the book of Revelation calls, "the synagogue of Satan."
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01-26-2017, 09:21 AM | #1122 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You did say "Christians here" on this forum, and then you "prove" it by telling us some story about your cousin, who cut off your friendship. I'm thinking there's much more to the story than you're letting on. Perhaps you disrupted his Sunday School class on every visit? Sounds like the kind of thing you might do, all the while chuckling under your breath. I would like to hear his side of the story. Fetish is defined as "a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc." Yup, that accurately defines my support for Israel, based on Genesis 12.3 and other verses. Perhaps your disdain for Israel has clouded your judgment? Perhaps it is you who have some secret "fetish" for them mooslems. Do you fantasize over Moohammud? No doubt, these are serious questions demanding extensive inquiry.
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01-26-2017, 10:39 AM | #1123 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Paul is not talking about the nation of Israel, but the Christians who were Jews living in Jerusalem. Not really meaningful to the question raised.
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01-26-2017, 11:05 AM | #1124 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Do you also see huge distinctions between merely cursing the inhabitants of Jerusalem and cursing Israel?
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01-26-2017, 11:11 AM | #1125 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-26-2017, 11:58 AM | #1126 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Our government didn't give them weapons because of Bible prophecy, we gave them weapons because they are an absolutely crucial military base for maintaining peace between Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel's success as an economic power has given them the clout to purchase weapons to defend themselves, a right that every single nation has and exercises, and given the history of Israel since 1948 they would be idiotic to not exercise. Nor have we given Israel aid to the exclusion of others. Saudi Arabia and Egypt have both received huge amounts of military hardware from the US. Why do you think it is that every single president supports Israel, because of the Bible or because of the strategic importance?
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01-26-2017, 12:02 PM | #1127 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Either way, I think you are hanging around some very strange Christians and this could really explain a lot.
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01-26-2017, 12:06 PM | #1128 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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If they don't want to curse them then why do they have a problem with the US blessing them?
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01-26-2017, 02:54 PM | #1129 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Israel plays an important role in Christian apocalyptic theodicy. When I was in the LCM, Jesus was supposed to return by 1988 within a generation from the founding of modern Israel in 1948 based on Jesus' fig tree parable and his "this generation shall not pass away" prophesy.
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01-26-2017, 03:06 PM | #1130 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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At the time I noted that this is about the point that Lee died. Didn't have to be stoned for a false prophecy. He just died of old age, or whatever it was that was ailing him.
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01-26-2017, 05:01 PM | #1131 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
Have I fantasized about that? Do I have a Mohammad fetish? No. I never met the guy. But I've noticed something about Gen. 12:3. It doesn't even hold up in the Bible, much less recently and currently. What kind of blessing do you expect for blessing the state of Israel? Does it make your life better, and solve all your problems? Is God pouring out His blessings on you because you bless the state of Israel?
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01-26-2017, 05:35 PM | #1132 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-26-2017, 05:59 PM | #1133 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
People are strange. Christian or otherwise.
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01-26-2017, 06:24 PM | #1134 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Don't tell me the modern world is no longer determined by mythology. The Jews, most who have no blood ties to Abraham, or the Bible, and no right to "take the promised land" are using ancient Bible mythology that gives them the right to : Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: And Christians, because it has to do with their magic book, just fall for it ... thinking if Israel takes all the land and rebuilds the temple they'll get their precious Jesus back, no matter the cost of the neighbors they are suppose to be loving. Don't tell me we aren't mythologically determined, even today. That's a joke.
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01-26-2017, 06:42 PM | #1135 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Don't you think that making peace with the Palestinians would bless Israel? How many times do you guys fall for this stuff. The Bible says to bless Israel so regardless of what we do they will sell it as "blessing Israel" and wrap themselves in God's word. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. This is why I say we should be obedient to what the Bible says. For someone who has argued that there is no reference to bacteria in the Bible despite all of the very obvious references, where exactly does the Bible say that giving phosphorous bombs is equivalent to "blessing someone"?
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01-26-2017, 06:45 PM | #1136 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Israel kills Palestinian children with bulldozers based on a verse in Deuteronomy.Did I miss something?
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01-26-2017, 06:56 PM | #1137 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-26-2017, 07:04 PM | #1138 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-26-2017, 07:48 PM | #1139 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Judaic views of the Amalekites
In Judaism, the Amalekites came to represent the archetypal enemy of the Jews. In Jewish folklore the Amalekites are considered to be the symbol of evil. This concept has been used by some hassidic rabbis (particularly the Baal Shem Tov) to represent atheism or the rejection of God. Nur Masalha, Elliot Horowitz and Josef Stern suggest that Amalekites have come to represent an "eternally irreconcilable enemy" that wants to murder Jews, and that Jews in post-biblical times sometimes associate contemporary enemies with Haman or Amalekites, and that some Jews believe that pre-emptive violence is acceptable against such enemies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
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01-27-2017, 04:49 AM | #1140 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I guess we don't know. But should be careful. We don't know what God is feeling. But blind support of Israel may not match what's in the heart of God. God may be true to Gen. 12:3 when it comes to Abraham and his kids, but He clearly has not been true to it when it comes to Israel. And there's no legitimate reason to think that Gen. 12:3 applies to the state of Israel today. Quote:
Quote:
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01-27-2017, 06:07 AM | #1141 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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There is a misperception that Israel is righteous, but that is not true. What is true is that these nations practiced infanticide and abortion (sacrifices to Moloch and Baal, babies were sacrificed for the sake of fornication and careers). But today Israel's laws concerning abortion are as liberal as virtually any nation. Regardless of what the argument in favor of it is, it is a human sacrifice, something that we associate with Pagan worship.
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01-27-2017, 06:25 AM | #1142 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
This just can't be true. Bro Ohio has expressed extreme negative views on abortion. But he clearly supports Israel. So Israel can't be liberal towards abortion.
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01-27-2017, 07:29 AM | #1143 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Bro awareness loves children and says phosphorus weaponry is evil, but he still lives in America (perhaps kentucky has left the Union?) which murders the unborn and used phosphorus on the Iraqis. He also supported Obama who preferred to blow people up with drones rather than extract valuable life-saving information by getting these folks a little wet. Maybe there is a Trudeau in his future?
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01-27-2017, 06:00 PM | #1144 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
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01-28-2017, 06:03 AM | #1145 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-29-2017, 04:45 AM | #1146 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
As we are seeing, another example of evil instigated by Trump, is Syrian Christian families turned away at airports because of Trump's travel bans. Trump's policy is causing untold suffering on families, regardless of their religion, and will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America. This is therefore an example of unnecessary evil caused by the idiocy of one man.
The countries targeted include: Iran Iraq Syria Sudan Libya Yemen Somalia The problem is this will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America as this article explains: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...xecutive-order Furthermore Trump chose the wrong countries to ban. The majority of 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, Lebanon. Other countries where terrorism thrives is Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey and Afghanistan. Strangely there are not bans on people from these countries. We can see from the global terrorism index that he is missing Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, which are higher on the list than Syria. http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/t...t-attacks.html |
01-29-2017, 06:14 AM | #1147 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You already called America "Sodom," so perhaps Trump is only protecting these folks from all the evils here. Trump was elected to secure the borders, and that is what he is doing. That is what the majority of Americans want. "Untold suffering?" That's what happens when porous borders allow terrorists to kill and destroy our citizens. Perhaps you are from California? I am beginning to think that a CalExit might be a good idea.
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01-29-2017, 03:38 PM | #1148 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Iran - Environmental catastrophe in the Ahwaz region (what we used to call the fertile crescent) http://www.countercurrents.org/2016/...-ahwaz-region/ Iraq’s environmental catastrophe worse than Hiroshima https://www.rt.com/op-edge/iraq-envi...hiroshima-533/ Syria’s uprising a result of Climate change https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-drought-study Sudan — Conflict due to desertification http://postconflict.unep.ch/publicat..._disasters.pdf Libya — Man made environmental catastrophe http://www.alternet.org/media/libya-...d-its-invasion Yemen — Water crisis at catastrophic levels https://www.american.edu/cas/economi..._1-1_glass.pdf Somalia — Severe drought http://www.somalilandpress.com/somal...e-catastrophe/ Don't tell me Trump doesn't believe in Climate change, actions speak louder than words.
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01-29-2017, 07:08 PM | #1149 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Trump surrogates today unveiled that those 7 countries were specifically identified as terroristic threats by the Obama administration. And we know that Barak Obama was a High Priest in the Worldwide Church of Climate Change.
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01-29-2017, 07:14 PM | #1150 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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It was very clear to him from his discussions with his bosses including the deputy director of the CIA that terrorism was merely an excuse. Also the reason he went public was because of Obama. During the campaign Obama pledged to clean this up, instead things became much more intrusive. When he saw that he felt he had to go public. Kind of reminds me of this extremely obscure preacher I knew who used "rebellions" as an excuse to do periodic purges of those who knew the truth. In this case the truth is there is a gold mine, black gold, under the Arctic, just so long as we wall off the rest of the world suffering cataclysmic results of that black gold.
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01-29-2017, 09:17 PM | #1151 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Snowden was a patriot. Whistleblowers like him are true heroes. They are doing the job the press should have done. Climate change, like terrorism, is merely the excuse to push liberal intrusive agendas at us.
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01-30-2017, 12:36 AM | #1152 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This chart and figures might help put things in perspective: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/03/us...-gun-violence/ The fear of terrorists and immigration is irrational: https://www.cato.org/publications/co...s-overinflated The facts are a person is in much more danger from getting shot by an idiot with a gun than by a Syrian refugee family who has waited months to get visa approval and gone through all the necessary checks and balances. Although treating them this way might make them change their mind. America is avoiding its global responsibility in accepting these refugees. America has a responsibility to these people given that they played a big part in causing the chaos in the first place. |
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01-30-2017, 12:41 AM | #1153 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Snowden is a traitor, plain and simple. Did his leaks accomplish anything? No, not really. People are quite happy having their lives monitored - those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.
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01-30-2017, 04:48 AM | #1154 | |
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Snowden acted according to conscience. His leaks exposed extensive government corruption. People are not happy with surveilance. A healthy government fears its people, not the other way around. During the last century, over 150 million people died at the hands of their own government. Obviously normal law-abiding citizens have much to fear from abusive governments. I thought you might be a Christian? Have you never read how many genuine evangelical Christians have been tortured and killed for their faith at the hands of their leaders?
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01-30-2017, 04:52 AM | #1155 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 04:58 AM | #1156 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I view these changes as inevitable. The power to collect and analyze all the data is there, just like Pandora's box, it has been released and can no longer be taken away. Likewise, the advantages of having modern technology far outweigh the disadvantages. I view us as "stewards" of the land. The environmental catastrophes that have been man made are not "good stewardship". Our foreign policy which was not pushed by green's like Al Gore but rather by Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes has not created a more peaceful world. In that sense I think the best foreign policy is one that makes peace. Smashing your "enemy" back to the Stone age has not made the world safer, but rather more terrifying. I think we should go into these countries that Trump has declared to be outcasts and give them a peace offering that would make peace.
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01-30-2017, 05:03 AM | #1157 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Really? Nothing to fear? The movie tells a story of a Banker who should have had nothing to fear. But the CIA needed to "turn" someone, make an insider into their spy. So they saw that his teenage daughter had a boyfriend. They revoked the boyfriend's visa, having him deported. This in turn caused the girl to try and commit suicide with sleeping pills. They then took the banker out, promised to help get the boyfriend back, got him drunk, put him in his car and then called the police on him for DUI. Once again, he now needs them to help him not go to jail. They destroyed this man's life to make him their "female dog". How? Simply by the ability to figure out where the pressure points were in his life and push them.
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01-30-2017, 05:11 AM | #1158 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
If the world were a family then the US should be viewed as one of the key elders of this family.
If we want to be a "light set on a hill" then we will help these nations. If they are "climate refugees" as a result of climate change then we, along with all others who have been changing the climate, bear some responsibility. A tribe of chimps does not bear responsibility for the survival of another tribe of chimps, but we are not chimps. We are men. Our tremendous success over chimps is due to our being eusocial. If we stop being eusocial we will stop being men. That does not mean that accepting refugees is the solution. Most refugees would rather stay in their country. I view these countries as the canary in the coal mine. What is killing them will be killing us soon. https://www.yahoo.com/news/storms-pr...050419759.html Therefore if we can solve the problem while it is still in Yemen and Syria we will be very thankful for that solution when it moves to the US.
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01-30-2017, 06:42 AM | #1159 | |
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I grew up being brainwashed by liberal ideology that mankind's bad behavior was expediting the next ice age. Visualize frozen wooly mammoths. Next was global warming. Now climate change. Wait till the big earthquake hits. Can't blame that on the oil industry. The world will never know lasting peace until our Lord returns. Only the sovereignty of God has kept us from destroying ourselves, and will continue to do so until He is ready to send His Son to return.
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01-30-2017, 07:25 AM | #1160 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I am being a little facetious there. But to use the "light set on a hill" terminology is to grant a spiritual status that the nation known as the United States of America does not have nor has it ever had. It does boast a more open and honest means of governing. But despite the inclusiveness of its citizens in government through he vote, they do not truly rule the nation. Nor do the rules truly reflect the ideals that we would call moral and just. Some yes, others no. But not entirely yes, therefore not qualified to be the light on a hill. During almost all parts of its history it has denied some people true participation in the "land of the free." At our best, we all want certain ones to be suppressed. And therefore whoever is in power will be suppressing someone. We suppress the gays, or the bigots, or the Christians, or the Muslims, or the world-domination group, or the isolationists. And the wise people among the middle of all of that know that the suppression of anyone suppresses them. Yes, our history, dark as some parts may seem to some, has been more positive for more people than all but a few others can boast. But it is still nothing more than a kingdom of the world. Our part (as Christians) is not necessarily to shape the best country that could be. It is to live as lights in this dark and evil age. Yes. Right here in America is still a dark and evil age. No mater who is the president and how moral you think our laws could become. Worrying about making the world right with God's morality without God is just providing a reason for them to think that they don't need God.
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01-30-2017, 07:26 AM | #1161 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 09:25 AM | #1162 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 09:42 AM | #1163 | |
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Unfortunately the oil industry is responsible for earthquakes, at least where they do fracking. Even though these things won't be resolved until the Lord returns, and even though the 1,000 years is also called "the restoration of all things" I still feel it is our responsibility to be good stewards.
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01-30-2017, 09:45 AM | #1164 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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"Worrying about making the world right with God's morality" is what Eleanor Roosevelt did in writing the universal declaration of human rights. This action was seen to essential after WWII.
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01-30-2017, 09:48 AM | #1165 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The bottom line is that "more of the same" is not a solution. It is easy to say he is wrong, but then you should tell us what right is. Please explain how we, in the US, can bring peace to this troubled region? Can't do that? Then at the very least explain how the US Government can protect its citizens from the chaos of these regions? Oops, can't even do that? The only thing you can do is to cast aspersion. Give us the solution and then you will have the credibility to cast aspersion.
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01-30-2017, 11:34 AM | #1166 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I do not argue against aspiring for better. But once you start wrapping it in the cloak of religion — even indirectly through the rhetoric used — it becomes a call to those who see unity of church and state as a good thing (for both state and religion). It is a misdirection for us from our call to bear God's image.
But history shows that the joining of church and state is not a good thing. It compromises the church while giving the state a false sense of purity and superiority. In any case, for the purpose of our life a Christians, it is clearly better if we have our aspirations related to our higher kingdom and let the earthly kingdom be what it will be. Not saying to just ignore the earthly government. But it should not be an important part of our focus. It is, at its best, the world.
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01-30-2017, 01:23 PM | #1167 | |
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Does history show that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light? yes. But does history also show that you cannot separate the "rule of law" from "moral law"? Yes. This is what the Nuremberg trial concluded. In the end our foreign policy must include diplomacy and making peace. The solution is to make peace. Bombs, and drones are not the solution, if they were the last 8 years would have seen a dramatic improvement in foreign relations, it hasn't. If you are not saying to ignore our earthly responsibilities as citizens then I can not understand what you are saying.
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01-30-2017, 02:30 PM | #1168 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 02:39 PM | #1169 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The English Prime Minister would disagree. Are you really so stupid to think that America should expect other countries to clean up the consequences of their actions? I thought you might be a Christian and know something about receiving foreigners, orphans and widows as the Bible says to do.
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01-30-2017, 02:49 PM | #1170 | |
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01-30-2017, 03:04 PM | #1171 | |
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You can argue that the banker should have been smart enough to avoid the pitfalls, perhaps. But what about his teenage daughter? What about the boyfriend who has no idea what her father is involved in. You said if you have nothing to hide you don't need to worry, but the story proves if you have something of value you need to worry.
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01-30-2017, 03:09 PM | #1172 | |
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I expect the US to be responsible for the consequence of our actions. Climate change in part is a consequence of our actions, surely more than they are of Yemen or Syria. Saying that the ecological catastrophe in Iraq was worse than Hiroshima was a direct consequence of the US action of using depleted uranium as a weapon. Iran's ecological disaster was a direct result of oil exploration and drilling. If we bought that oil we are partners in that destruction. Even if we didn't we are clearly responsible for quite a lot of ecologic disaster from oil exploration.
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01-30-2017, 03:33 PM | #1173 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 03:45 PM | #1174 | |
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01-30-2017, 04:23 PM | #1175 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
We can agree to disagree.
Quote:
Quote:
Whether secular law must be brought in line with God's law in the minutia is quite a different question. God's law would oppose LGBT(and whatever more letters they now tack on) lifestyle but in secular society it is not a given that its moral code must agree. There is also a "morality" in allowing individuals there free will in areas we may not agree with. That is not God's morality. But he is fully capable of meting out judgment on those issues as he sees fit. And it might not come in this lifetime. That is not simply our choice to insist upon. Quote:
But how we respond is not some obvious "foreign policy" edict for this or any other country. I am not near enough to being God to decide between a true "just war" and being hands off. Or somewhere in between. But governments will respond as they feel best to respond. And before getting to your "ignore your earthly responsibilities" nonsense (which completely misrepresents what I said) I do not suggest that any particular course of action is clearly right or wrong. And I do not say that we should just stay out of it because we are Christians. But the way to take part is to do so in the same way that anyone else does. Make your case for a particular course of action (or inaction). Don't start marching in the streets decrying the need to step up to our God-given rights as the "light on a hill" and "turn the nation back to God." (not saying that you are proposing such a thing — but some do). There is a place between the social isolationism that some Christians have undertaken in the past, and the curse-the-abortion-clinics-and-gays-and bomb-the-Muslims stance that the other extreme seems to go to. If you can't understand that, then you are helpless. That is where most of Christianity actually lives. And in that place, there are actually good Christians who voted for Hillary. It wasn't me. But I know some of them. And they are more about us living our Christian life than tilting at the Muslim, gay, abortionist, etc., windmills.
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01-30-2017, 05:03 PM | #1176 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The US represents about 5% of the world's population, and we have been a country for a little more than 200 years. For the other 5,800 years of human civilization and for the other 95% of the world's population for these 200 years it would be irrational to think any other way. The world is in a constant flux, like riding a bicycle. Just because we are upright at the moment that could change in a week. There is no guarantee that a madman doesn't take over our country and gain control of the awesome power of our NSA. When asked why they rob banks a famous criminal said "because that is where the money is". If someone wants the power to rule the world they will try to take over the US, because that is where the power is. BTW, is it irrational to want to see Trump's tax records? Is it irrational to ask where this close relation with Putin came from? Reagan said "trust but verify". Was he irrational? Are we really going to compare a reclusive teenager with a gun to the NSA and their ability to capture every text, email, and phone call in the entire world? You really need someone to put that into perspective for you?
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01-30-2017, 05:11 PM | #1177 | |
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By your definitions, America would be today chopped up into French, Dutch, Spanish, and British colonies. Also, by your definitions, the gospel would never have been preached, since many broke the law by preaching it.
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01-30-2017, 05:15 PM | #1178 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Since you are such a loving Christian, why are you not hosting mooslem refugees at your home?
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01-30-2017, 05:18 PM | #1179 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Except for evangelical. He has nothing of value. He doesn't need to worry.
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01-30-2017, 05:21 PM | #1180 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
According to your logic, Witness Lee should have been responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened in all the LC's.
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01-30-2017, 06:05 PM | #1181 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 08:03 PM | #1182 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 08:13 PM | #1183 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Snowden was not a gospel preacher. Why does Romans 13:1 not apply to Snowden? He was a government employee, he not only disobeyed his own government, but also stole things from his employer, things which did not belong to him.
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01-30-2017, 08:26 PM | #1184 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-30-2017, 08:33 PM | #1185 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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https://medium.com/insurge-intellige...0da#.j1c3cx7t6 Trump has basically admitted to this by saying they should have kept or taken the oil in Iraq so the ISIS could not be funded. Trump also knows that ISIS could have been finished much sooner had they taken action sooner. That's one good thing about Trump he is an action man. |
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01-31-2017, 04:34 AM | #1186 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So then, how do you bring peace to this situation?
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01-31-2017, 04:38 AM | #1187 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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When the head of the NSA lied to the senate about not knowingly gathering information of American citizens, which is a violation of the constitution for unlawful searches he was clearly not being subject to the authorities. His head was not "covered". Hence, to obey him and help him cover up his lie is not being obedient to the government. The Nuremberg trial established that you are not free to break the law simply because you are "following orders". He knew that their surveillance was illegal, unconstitutional and that his bosses were lying about it to those that they report to.
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01-31-2017, 04:46 AM | #1188 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Second, since when is the standard for a crime whether or not a person died? Third, why don't you read about Stuxnet. That is another branch of the NSA and the threat is seen as being far bigger than a nuclear bomb. Many people believe that it was the humiliation from Stuxnet that prompted the Russians to hack Clinton and bring her down. The NSA opened pandora's box, but you can be sure Iran, Pakistan, China, North Korea and Russia want to at the forefront of this demon hoard.
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01-31-2017, 04:55 AM | #1189 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
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01-31-2017, 05:10 AM | #1190 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 05:49 AM | #1191 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 05:50 AM | #1192 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Because of whistleblowers like Snowden and because Stuxnet was discovered and became public knowledge.
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01-31-2017, 07:24 AM | #1193 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 07:36 AM | #1194 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Or action child. Who is signing EOs like writing tweets, and who puts them in classy leather binders and holds them up like a child showing how good he colors.
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01-31-2017, 08:12 AM | #1195 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Never heard you complain about Obama using Executive Orders to release criminals and who knows what else.
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01-31-2017, 08:19 AM | #1196 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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After the last tree is felled, Christ will come back. James G. Watt - Interior Sec. under Reagan
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01-31-2017, 08:20 AM | #1197 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Why don't you try reading your Bible for a change, rather than guys like Bart Ehrman who distorts the Bible with every word out of his mouth. It might do you some good.
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01-31-2017, 08:46 AM | #1198 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I didn't like Obama's EOs either. Cuz I knew that the next president would use his example. I didn't count on Trump coming in and signing them in numbers like EOs on steroids. So you didn't like Obama's but are fine with Trump's?
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01-31-2017, 08:52 AM | #1199 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
You're still stuck on Bart Ehrman? A leading Bible scholar you've never read?
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01-31-2017, 09:41 AM | #1200 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
........................
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01-31-2017, 09:42 AM | #1201 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Trump is a reaction to Obama. Each is swinging the pendulum further, undoing the policies of the previous prez. There seem to be no more moderates in DC. Obama got away with E.O. "murder" because the mainstream media slurped up his every move. I'd hate to see the liberal that replaces Trump.
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01-31-2017, 09:43 AM | #1202 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 09:45 AM | #1203 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Bart Ehrman is a self-professed atheist, and you are calling him a "leading Bible scholar?"
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01-31-2017, 09:47 AM | #1204 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 09:50 AM | #1205 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 09:56 AM | #1206 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 09:59 AM | #1207 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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And when that happens, the government of the people, by the people, and for the people may just perish from the face of the earth.
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01-31-2017, 10:18 AM | #1208 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You said Quote:
Quote:
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01-31-2017, 10:28 AM | #1209 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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01-31-2017, 10:44 AM | #1210 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Methinks perchance you dislike him because you consider him a traitor for starting out a born again fundamentalist and ending up an agnostic.
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01-31-2017, 11:04 AM | #1211 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Me too. It sure does seem that each president takes it a little further. Bush got the Patriot Act, that shredded the constitution. And no one so far has repealed it. Maybe Trump will, and will replace it with some far better. We know how he likes to brag and inflate himself as our MOTA. Everything he does is great and better, so he claims over and over again.
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01-31-2017, 11:17 AM | #1212 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Doesn't sound like he knows his Bible at all. Sounds he he only knows dead letters. That's like going to a dentist who "don't know" what he's doing. Ouch! I can't believe you would listen to any Bible professor, since you are so disenchanted with Christians, churches, and Bibles.
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01-31-2017, 11:19 AM | #1213 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
But maybe bro ZNP can relate the POG to the POE.
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01-31-2017, 11:25 AM | #1214 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I heard Schumer had crocodile tears and Obama was enraged over this immigrant moratorium. I wish we all had the protections they have. And their health insurance program too. These guys live in a bubble which Trump calls a swamp.
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01-31-2017, 11:26 AM | #1215 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Quote:
I said fine. What is your tested human strategy that would work better and then I can understand why you are taking issue with Donald Trump's strategy. I am trying to agree with you but you haven't given me anything to agree with. You were the one who posted this on this thread, I assumed it was because you felt Donald Trump was an example of the POE. I have no issue with that if you can also show me the path that he should take.
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01-31-2017, 01:43 PM | #1216 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
There's a reason why we as individuals keep secrets, and why governments keep secrets too. I consider the consequences of revealing secrets to be worse than the knowledge of what those secrets are. Why? Because revealing secrets has only caused damage. Nothing has changed since then. The public were initially shocked, now some are afraid and skeptical, and others are nonchalant or accepting of it. Without accomplishing anything positive, the release of this information only makes the public more skeptical and afraid of their government, and more likely to turn against them. This is exactly what the terrorists want.
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01-31-2017, 02:32 PM | #1217 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The US constitution wanted to protect citizens from warrantless searches. If that is no longer a concern then change the constitution. But when you allow an organization to violate the law and lie about it to the legislative oversight then you have a serious problem that you need to deal with. I am well aware of the "reason we keep secrets" and the real danger which was in revealing the sources. But I am not going to give those who were clearly criminal a pass because this guy blew the whistle on them.
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01-31-2017, 05:47 PM | #1218 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
• God exists. — Yes and man does too.
• God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. — Yes and man is not omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent. • An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils. Define evil — I think what is more important to God is that He wants a man “in his image and after His likeness”. Man is not currently up to this standard, so the real question is how to “create man in His image and after His likeness”. Giving this man dominion indicates His goal is that this man can deal with evil. • An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented. Yes, that would fall under the term “omniscient”. But as we have already pointed out, man is not omniscient. If he were you could give me an answer to my very simple question, how would you prevent the evil of Islamic terrorism. • An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. Yes He does, but He also has an even bigger power, which is to create a man in His image and after His likeness to which He can give dominion to. Once this man is in this image he can prevent evil like Islamic terrorism. • A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil. Perhaps the best way to do that is to create millions, even billions of people in His image and after His likeness and give them dominion. • If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists. Once again you need to first define evil. Still have not done this. • Evil exists (logical contradiction). Cannot come to this conclusion without defining evil.
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01-31-2017, 07:17 PM | #1219 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...den-is-no-hero |
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01-31-2017, 08:09 PM | #1220 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-01-2017, 04:11 AM | #1221 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Post #4 Free will doesn't explain why children suffer and die from cancer or thousands die in earth quakes. In other words there are natural evils as well as moral human ones. This suggests that when children die it is a natural evil. However, I don’t see the distinction between cancer and earthquakes. Is one a natural evil and the other a moral one or are they both natural evils and you have not given us an example of a moral one? Also, using examples is fine to help someone understand your definition but this is not a definition of evil. Post #6 says “Creating Satan, an evil being, would conflict with the nature of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God.” This suggests that the actions of Satan are “evil” and hence would act as our definition. But you don't say it is, you don't say that you are equating the actions of Satan with Cancer or earthquakes, and later you provide a different definition from Augustine, again not saying which one you embrace. Post #59 The logical force of the argument depends on our assumption that we know what God, omnipotence, omniscience, omni-benevolence and evil mean. On closer examination we find that each of these terms are symbols that bring us to the limits of human understanding. In this post you make it clear you understand the thread is useless without a clear definition of the terms, yet you don't provide a clear definition of evil. Post #76 Philosophy is defined differently by different people. You haven't defined what you mean by the word, so I can't be sure what you mean by it. In this post you make my point precisely. Unless you define evil so that I know what you mean then it is impossible to discuss this. Post #106 It is a tautology because it claims absolute status for God's goodness. From that it follows logically that evil contradicts God's nature. This post suggests a definition of evil as "a contradiction of absolute good". Different from the definition of evil as "the actions of Satan", different from the definition of evil as a child's death due to earthquakes and cancer, and different from the definition you give from Augustine. Hence, my question, what is the definition? Post #152 Another point I raised which no one here answered was the problem of natural evils such as disease, or natural disasters. Augustine had an answer: natural evils were the consequence of the fall on man. As he put it "There are two kinds of evil, sin and the penalty for sin. This is a definition that is useful if we agree with the Bible's definition for what constitutes sin. If we do then we will certainly have a detailed, comprehensive, and well expounded definition. We also have the "penalty for sin", such as the crucifixion of Christ, which has also been raised. So, once again, my question is "What is the definition for evil"?
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02-01-2017, 05:43 AM | #1222 | ||||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think your repeated question, "What is evil," is just a dodge of the POE, or you are way too ignorant to even be asking the question. Define evil? Bahahahahahaha.
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02-01-2017, 06:30 AM | #1223 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Quote:
This first began with the seduction of Eve in the garden. The Serpent seduced her with suspicions and doubt, finding fault with God Himself.
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02-01-2017, 07:21 AM | #1224 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What is dodgy is having a thread called "The Problem of Evil" and after more than 1,000 posts there is still not an accepted definition of what we are discussing when we say evil.
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02-01-2017, 07:22 AM | #1225 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But the problem with the Problem of Evil is that it is an endeavor to find forensic proof in an environment that requires faith. Sometimes the logical attempts to prove or disprove God given the premise that has been posited will strike a chord with someone who will take a side on that basis. But for others, it is just proof that the ways of God are not within our ability to understand or know and that faith is required. From that point they either find faith or do not. Global climate change, whether natural or of human creation, does not prove or disprove God. ISIS and the extremes of human evil do not prove or disprove God. Disease, whether inflicted on the elderly or the newborn, does not prove or disprove God. A hurricane destroying villages in the Caribbean, including hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, houses . . . everything . . . does not prove or disprove God. If God is (and that is what I believe due to faith, not logic), then whether you are convinced that he is or is not by the POE analysis, he still is. If what is written was being the end for those who do not believe is true, it will happen even for those who do not believe. And if it is the other way around, then I will have trusted for no reason. But will have found a level of peace that I would not have otherwise known. Opiate of the masses? Maybe. But I don't believe so.
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02-01-2017, 07:23 AM | #1226 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That sounds a little like Eve saying that "even if we touch it we will die". Asking the question does not seem to be far enough to be evil, if it were then we don't really have free will as asking these questions should be standard process for someone exercising free will.
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02-01-2017, 07:53 AM | #1227 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What is evil? "We know it when we see it," or experience it, even tho we might not be able to define it. Sometimes we don't see it coming till it's gone.
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02-01-2017, 08:05 AM | #1228 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But the POE is asking about objective evil. The evil we all know and disdain. Still you might be right. God might not like us finding fault with Him -- it might offend His almighty ego -- and might rain evil down upon us, thereby proving He has at least one fault : being a cosmic sized childish ego. You know, Trump like.
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02-01-2017, 08:24 AM | #1229 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Here's a couple of penetrating questions from Augustine :
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02-01-2017, 08:42 AM | #1230 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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OK, I'm back. I defined evil on post #555. We discussed it and you countered my definition with one of your own. On 11/26/16 you asked me if I had ever defined evil. On post #846 I pointed you to my definition in post #555 again. Can you explain why this keeps happening?
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02-01-2017, 10:11 AM | #1231 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Finding fault with God is not. He proved Himself by sending His Son to the cross.
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02-01-2017, 10:23 AM | #1232 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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Your definition from Post #555 Evil is the suffering caused by a morally wrong action of a free moral agent. By this definition the action of Francisca Rojas, a woman who murdered her own two children and cut her own throat in an attempt to place the blame on another person would be defined as evil. The man she accused was then tortured to get a confession, but he refused. As a result the inspector Eduardo Alvarez figured he could use fingerprints for the first time to solve the crime. He was able to prove that the woman killed her children and the man was innocent. On the one hand the man suffered from the false accusation and the torture, but this suffering worked out for good as it led to the discovery of fingerprints. This discovery, in turn, has made us to be more in the image and likeness of an omniscient God, and better able to exercise dominion. So what you are calling “evil” is actually the process by which man is made into the image and likeness of God so that they can have dominion. This is what Paul said when he said "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to Purpose". God has given us a free will, you can receive God or reject Him. If you receive Him the cross of Christ will work out for good, the water will be turned to wine. If you reject Him you choose a world without a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God. Without this God the world will become evil.
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02-01-2017, 10:30 AM | #1233 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I doubt there is anything we all can agree on.
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02-01-2017, 01:30 PM | #1234 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Well I can agree with that one.
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02-01-2017, 02:53 PM | #1235 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-01-2017, 03:22 PM | #1236 | ||
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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At least if you are presuming that the fact of the discovery of fingerprints eliminates the evil suffered by the man who was tortured. There is much evil in the torture of a man to coerce a false confession no matter how much societal good might ultimately come from it. And no amount of positive that came from discovering fingerprints can erase that evil. It is what it is. Plain and simple. As for your suddenly saying "This is what Paul said when he said 'll things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to Purpose' " this is another of your classic redirects. zeek answers your question. You bring up an irrelevant story about someone who killed her children and blamed someone else who was tortured to confess but out of the other person's refusal to confess came fingerprinting and you can find it to be consistent with Paul's "all things work for good" statement. Are you completely nuts? Might as well declare that God ordained that the man should be tortured so that fingerprinting would come out of it. God is not ordaining everything. And just because something positive came out of the situation does not mean it was in any way about "those who are in Christ Jesus" or anything else concerning Paul's statement. It was pure evil. No mitigating circumstances. No mulligan. No magic wand to waive over it and make it all better. And it might be argued that it is evil to argue away evil. To always try to spin everything into something it is not.
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02-01-2017, 04:10 PM | #1237 | ||
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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My point, which you missed, is that this terrible "evil" of 50% of the people being convicted of murder are in fact innocent has been eliminated by 90%. It is now down to 5%. That is a tremendous improvement in 100+ years. All of those innocent people who were never convicted because of the discovery of fingerprints, that is the "evil" that has been eliminated. Hence the torture that this man suffered was for a purpose, it worked out for good. Quote:
It is very tiring responding to you, as much as possible I ignore your posts and comments. Either you are incapable of reading what I write in a coherent way or else it is intentional. Either way your twisting and distorting my words is highly objectionable. Although I have a different opinion from Zeek who feels the Bible is completely about faith and you have missed the point when you talk fact, it is still possible to have rational conversation with him. He doesn't distort my posts, doesn't seem to have an agenda other than an honest discussion.
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02-01-2017, 04:25 PM | #1238 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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Physical evil (one of the three aspects of evil in that definition that is not covered in Zeek's definition) being cancer or earthquakes as implied in the earliest posts is equally easy to refer to based on the reference to scientific advancement. How many people used to die from an infection from a cut before we discovered penicillin? Our advances in engineering and medicine have gone a very long way to eliminating this kind of "evil". Again, what you are calling "evil" is actually the road that we take going from a creature to a man in the image and likeness of God who has been given dominion. Is it evil when an ant dies in the wild? Why is it evil if a human dies? We understand that these things are "preventable". We realize that we can build our buildings so that we don't die in an earthquake. We can study cancer and treat it so that we don't die from cancer. What you are defining as evil is actually the path that we take where the omnipotent and omniscient God makes us into His own image and likeness.
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02-02-2017, 05:09 AM | #1239 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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"When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I’m basically the same. The temperament is not that different." ~ Trump |
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02-02-2017, 05:44 AM | #1240 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Surely you understand that a representative government represents us. He wasn't elected by 20,000 lunatics on a Montana ranch. At least 40 million American citizens voted for him. No doubt one really good reason why they did this was because of how bad the other choice was. But what does it say about "President of the United States" when it has become a choice between the lesser of two evils? If he is the "first ever 1st grader to be elected" and that is the "lesser of two evils" what does that say about us?
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02-02-2017, 09:23 AM | #1241 | |||
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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Crucial to this definition, is the recognition that for evil to exist per se, there must be a subjectivity, a conscious being, who suffers. Likewise, there must be a morally free person [also conscious] who causes the suffering. The weather may be bad but it is not evil unless it is caused by a morally free agent and is experienced by a conscious [or at least potentially conscious] sufferer. Having defined evil, we can use it to analyze the Biblical POE. For example: Quote:
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Does the fact that the same act is performed by a different agent make it either good or evil? Or, did the authors' attribution of the act follow from their judgment of whether or not David numbering Israel was justifiable?
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02-02-2017, 10:49 AM | #1242 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-02-2017, 12:11 PM | #1243 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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The word “again” refers to the Lord’s anger over Saul’s mistreatment of the Gibeonites. This was the breaking of a covenant and it was due to pride in thinking they were better than others. This pride resulted in a three year famine. But this sin of pride rose up again. Based on the context we can see it was based on the feeling that David and Israel were coming to trust in the flesh after their victories and uplifting of men as “mighty men of valor”. So although these were genuine experiences of conquering by faith they incited the pride in the flesh. Numbering the people suggested that David felt he could depend on the flesh contrary to his many Psalms proclaiming that he needed to trust in God. The antecedent of “It” would be “the anger of the Lord” and by extension the Lord. For example, a person might insult another person who in response to the insult might fire back with a remark that incited the first to action. Just the thought (God judges the hearts and minds) that their own arm had gotten them the victory was an insult to God. He responded with a comment that incited David to number Israel. He didn’t compel David. But if you tell me that your own arm got you the victory it is perfectly reasonable for me to respond “really, and exactly how strong is your arm?” That would incite David to count. The thought that their own strength won the victory was when sin was conceived, deciding to count was when the sin came forth. Joab advised against this so it was obvious even to David’s close counselors that he was being “moved” by “Satan” (1 Chronicles 21:1). God did not plant the thought in David. The anger of the Lord burned against David and Israel when He heard this thought. The Lord had just finished rebuking them for their pride concerning the Gibeonites, and now this was the second time He had to deal with this. Finally, David was certainly humbled by the Lord. For all your strength how well did you do against the plague? Once again, exposing that man is not up to the standard of the image and likeness of God. But it also a crucial step on the path as this led to the ground on which the Temple was built. The ground that the temple is built is the repentance from trusting in the flesh and a turning to trust wholly in God.
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02-02-2017, 12:24 PM | #1244 | ||
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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But it does not make what happened to him less than evil. Some of the weakest arguments in the whole discussion. Arguing evil to be non evil. I guess a sort of "calls being as not being."
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02-02-2017, 01:22 PM | #1245 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Temperament is God-given, with you your whole life. Like the color of your skin. That was the point. Unfortunately you only see evil. What does that say about your temperament?
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02-02-2017, 03:26 PM | #1246 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Bro Ohio, Witness Lee should have taught you not to become emotionally attached to a leader.
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02-02-2017, 04:54 PM | #1247 |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
How do you know this? II Samuel says that the Lord "incited David against Israel." In the KJV the word incited is moved. The Lord moved David against Israel. According to Strong's Concordance the same Hebrew word [5496e] is used when I Chronicles says that Satan moved or incited or provoked David. Whatever God did to David in Samuel 24:1, Satan did the same thing to him in Chronicles 21:1.
If you look at the texts of the first four verses of II Samuel 24 and I Chronicles 21 side by side you will that the structure of the texts are the same except Satan takes the place of the Lord. Your convoluted commentary rationalizes the text by adding to it what it doesn't actually say but, you suppose, must be true, that is, if the Lord did it, it must be good and if Satan did it must be evil. A simpler explanation is that when the earlier text was revised, the scrupulous redactor objecting to the notion that the Lord would move David to do evil, changed the text to read Satan instead of Lord. Since the same verb is used in either case, and the context of the story is structurally the same, there is no basis for your interpretation concluding that the act was different depending on whether Satan or the Lord did it. Of our competing hypotheses, mine should be selected because it strictly conforms to the texts and requires the fewer assumptions.
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02-02-2017, 05:03 PM | #1248 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You have often spoke of your emotional attachment to Mel Porter. Who taught you that?
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02-02-2017, 05:05 PM | #1249 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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No one has argued "evil as not being evil". We have defined it as "the suffering caused by morally wrong action by a free moral agent". I have not denied that torture is a morally wrong action by a free moral agent. Hence, I have not denied that evil is evil. What I have said is that this "evil" has worked out for good. That is undeniable. If you agree that torture is evil, then you also agree that eliminating it from the standard operating procedure of the police is good.
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02-02-2017, 05:26 PM | #1250 | |||
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
Because the verse says "Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel". The first time it burned against them was due to their arrogant behavior towards the Gibeonites. This second time we know was due to David's pride in the strength of his own arm. There was no action, but the pride was there and anyone who reads 2Samuel 23 would probably feel a tinge of pride as well. It is natural (and fleshly).
Yes and Charles Barkley recently incited Lebron James to curse him. He said that he was whiny. If David said in his heart "look how strong I am" then God's response "really, exactly how strong is that?" would have incited him. That is what the word "incite" means. Quote:
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1. There was a sin that insulted God and caused His anger to burn against Israel. There is very strong basis to say this and I am in the company of virtually every commentator. 2. I suggest, as virtually every commentator does, that what caused His anger to burn was the sin of pride. The use of the word "again" is seen by every commentator as referring to the 3 year famine as a result of Saul's treatment of the Gibeonites. 3. When David spoke to Joab it was very clear that Joab saw that David was operating out of pride and tried to convince him not to act but he refused to listen to Joab. Based on the record in Chronicles I would say that was Satan "moving David". You can also say that David was "incited" by the Lord, but to equate "moving David to sin" with "inciting David" is an error. They both played a part in the story, but they were two different parts.
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02-02-2017, 05:31 PM | #1251 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The US must abide by the Geneva refugee convention which requires countries to take in war refugees on humanitarian grounds. To abide by this convention is to be righteous, to refuse it is evil.
Yes terrorism is a problem, terrorism is evil. Yet we have responsibility to these people to take them in on humanitarian grounds. For Trump to not do for people from war torn countries, is itself an evil act, particularly when it is applied to those who have already gone through the process and been accepted under the previous administration. The lesson of the Bible is to conquer evil with good. Terrorism = evil, accepting refugees = good. Trump's attempt to fight evil with evil will not work. |
02-02-2017, 05:42 PM | #1252 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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That's wrong. The Hebrew word you're translating incited with reference to the Lord and moved with reference to Satan is וַיָּ֨סֶת the same in both cases. There is no basis for saying it is different, except to confirm your presupposition.
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02-02-2017, 05:42 PM | #1253 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But this evil is motivating us to be peace makers. I think we can all agree that being a refugee is not nearly as good a solution as making peace. The reason we don't make peace is because we are not up to the image and likeness of God. But when we learn the simple, straightforward way to make peace then we will have been made into the image of the invisible God.
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02-02-2017, 05:43 PM | #1254 |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
The basis is that one verse refers to the Lord and the other to Satan. Were these words the same? There is no basis to say that the Lord and Satan were the same except to confirm your presupposition.
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02-02-2017, 06:35 PM | #1255 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Touche ... ya got me there.
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02-02-2017, 06:47 PM | #1256 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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I'm not saying the Lord and Satan are the same. I'm saying that, according to the texts they occupy the same place in the narrative. The act i.e. "moving" David to number Israel, is identical in both cases. Only the name has been changed from Lord to Satan. The simplest explanation is the name was changed because the Chronicler rejected the notion of God inciting David to sin. A comparison of the two verses, shows evidence for the evolution of the concept of God in the Bible. In later texts, from the prophets on, the concept of divine will changed. God came to be identified with social justice antithetical to a God would incite sin as in II Samuel.
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02-02-2017, 07:13 PM | #1257 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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I find the Satan switch intriguing. This may bring us back to apocalypticism, and your curiosity of the emergence of demons like never before. Chronicles was written around the time the demon infested book of Enoch was written. Maybe that's why Chronicles switched it to Satan. The demons were in the air during that very time. So, maybe they didn't blame God, cuz they had all those demons handy, and so made the switch to blame Satan and his demons instead. To be fair and honest, this is just my imagination. I just find the timeframe relation of Chronicles and Enoch, and the switcheroo, to likely be more than coincidental.
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02-03-2017, 04:29 AM | #1258 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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The history of Samuel begins before he was born. He was accounted from the conception. In the same way this sin of pride in 2Samuel 24 is accounted before the birth, while it is still metaphorically in the womb. Samuel is introduced as a child of prayer. The books show how God answered man’s prayer and yet the flesh tries to take credit for what God did. Hence by the time we get to 2Samuel 24 there is no need to explain this anymore than just saying that the Lord’s anger burned again. This book shows us how God changed the age to the age of the kingdom. It required man to join with God in prayer and pay the price for the ground on which the temple would be built, a dwelling place for God and man. Samuel was born out of Hannah’s affliction. She experienced her rivals insolence and her husband’s kindness. It was God’s sovereignty, due to Elkanah’s transgression that Hannah’s rival was so peevish and made her life so miserable. In the same way the “mighty men of valor” mentioned in chapter 23 would not have been necessary if the people of the land had not been so peevish. If Hannah only had a kind husband without the thorn she might not have been driven to pray so earnestly for a child. If the inhabitants of the land had not fought so much with the Israelites they would not have been driven to trust in God by faith. Not only so but Hannah comes to “the temple”. Even though it is the tabernacle it has been fixed and is described as “the temple”. This entire book of the two Samuel’s “comes to the temple”. We see this book beginning with those suffering from transgression coming to the temple to pray and it ends with those suffering from transgression paying the price for the ground of the greater, more permanent temple. And we see that all of this took place due to God’s instigation. He incited it. But in Chronicles we are chronicling the examples of man being faithful to God and also of man’s missteps. In Samuel pride, trust in the flesh and envy are the key ingredients whether we are talking about Hannah, or Eli, of Saul, or Samuel choosing David, or David’s brothers, or Saul’s envy of David, or Saul’s mistreatment of the Gibeonites, or David’s pride, etc. The Lord understands this dynamic and uses it to motivate us to prayer and faith. In Samuel we learn that there is a price to pay. Hannah makes a vow which she keeps. David also pays the price of a peace offering. In Chronicles David's sin is due to Satan pushing him. In Samuel David's sin is an important step bringing us to the Temple.
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02-03-2017, 04:38 AM | #1259 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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If you want to buy a house you have to pay the price. Paying that price is a "suffering" but it is necessary because it helps us value what we bought. Are you willing to pay this price? Is this something that you really want? For us to build a temple where God and man can dwell together you must pay the price. What you call "evil" I call the mortgage on that temple. I am not arguing that it doesn't exist, I am not arguing that it does not involve suffering, What I am saying is that suffering paid the price so that we could dwell with God. The very definition of evil is Jesus crucifixion. There is no better example of a morally wrong action caused by a moral free agent to cause suffering. But from Jesus perspective He was "paying the price" for us.
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02-03-2017, 04:45 AM | #1260 | ||
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The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 05:07 AM | #1261 |
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The Problem of Evil
If Satan is pushing David in Chronicles, it's God pushing him in Samuel. It's what Kellyanne Conway would call an "alternative fact". Hey maybe Samuel and Chronicles are depicting alternative universes. Marvel Comics and DC Comics put their superheros in alternative universes all the time. The Bible was ahead of it's time.
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02-03-2017, 05:34 AM | #1262 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 06:26 AM | #1263 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
You're over-reaching. The Bible is not an internet forum. God didn't log into the Bible under Satan's name. The statements in 2 Samuel 24:1, and 1 Chronicles 21:1 are putative statements of fact. As such, they are contradictory.
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02-03-2017, 07:01 AM | #1264 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
We don't know if ZNP is wacky, but this post suggests it.
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02-03-2017, 07:33 AM | #1265 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What is this based on? Essentially nothing. There verses in the NT that make it very clear that this is not the case, James says God does not tempt us with evil, a clear contradiction to your interpretation. Even so, your interpretation is based on a very few references that to the dim witted appear to indicate a problem. But under closer inspection is clearly not there. For example, this verse in 2Samuel 24 1. It is very clear that David and Israel did something that caused the Lord's anger to burn again. Why doesn't it say what it is? My understanding is that the term "again" and the story that follows is enough information for someone to understand what it is. The entire account in 1st and 2nd Samuel deals with Man's pride, arrogance and trusting in his own strength. Surely again can be understood as a reference to the dealing with the Gideonites, or it can also be understood as "again, for the umpteenth time". How many cases did we see with Saul involving trusting in man's strength? Too many. Anyway there is no suggestion in this account that God tempted David to sin, only that this sinful thought caused a reaction for the Lord's anger to burn again. 2. It then says that the Lord "incited". David insults the Lord who answered prayers and saved them and gave them a deliverance to give the credit to the flesh and their own strength. What is wrong with him responding -- "really? And exactly how strong is that arm of yours that saved you?" That is what it means to incite. That does not mean that God stood against Israel. It doesn't mean that God tempted David to sin. 3. However, we do know that David sinned and in Chronicles it makes it clear that he fell for Satan's temptation. It also makes it clear that Satan's temptation is "against Israel".
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02-03-2017, 07:38 AM | #1266 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Yes, complete wacko. I mean this interpretation is to have us believe that the writers of the Bible were more inept than Rose Mary Woods who we are led to believe erased 18.5 minutes by accidentally doing yoga in the Whitehouse for 18.5 minutes.
I mean what an inept coverup. You tell us those writing Chronicles change the account to Satan and yet leave it as the Lord in 2Samuel. Now I have heard a lot of slander and smear jobs of the Bible before, but to say the writers of the Bible were more inept than the Nixon whitehouse? The same guys who bungled the watergate breakin, deep throat, Rose Mary Woods? Please, that is wacko!
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02-03-2017, 07:54 AM | #1267 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I copied down a listing of the dates of the books of the Bible some 20 years or more ago. It's a quick reference guide. However, dating the books of the Bible particularly the OT is difficult due to much editing that occurred after the original was written. Even the names of the Samuel's and Chronicles we have today weren't original. They were once just one book respectively. But important to my reference to Enoch Wiki confirms my dating of Chronicles.
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In Jewish lore, Lilith is said to be the first wife of Adam, created along with Adam from the dust of the ground (Gene 1:27). But she ran off, left the garden, and coupled with the archangel Samael. Samael (Hebrew:, "Venom of God" or "Poison of God," or "Blindness of God" Sammael or Samil) is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is an accuser (satan), seducer, and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. So Lilith could be another source of human evil in the world, and early on in the garden. God has a bad track record when it comes to creating women. Good find in Isaiah.
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02-03-2017, 08:59 AM | #1268 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 09:51 AM | #1269 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 10:03 AM | #1270 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Well, you're zany. Is that much different?
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02-03-2017, 10:05 AM | #1271 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I own it. Does ZNP own his?
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02-03-2017, 12:10 PM | #1272 | |||||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 12:40 PM | #1273 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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If not then perhaps your view and my view and the view of several major Bible commentators is not that different. I am saying that the Lord "incited" David and that Satan "incited" David. The Lord was responding to the insult of David giving credit for the Lord's answered prayers to the flesh. The other was Satan trying to push David to sin. I don't agree that the two authors were referring to the same act, but rather that Samuel focused on the Lord's work to change the age, whereas Chronicles focused on Man's obedience and / or failures. So although both were writing about David's numbering the people, the Lord's inciting of David was not the same act as Satan's inciting David. The Lord wanted David to repent for giving credit to the flesh and Satan wanted David to sin.
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02-03-2017, 12:47 PM | #1274 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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There was pride in David's heart. The Lord was insulted, burned with anger again, for the umpteenth time, and incited him. On the other hand Satan saw an opportunity to bring Israel down and he also incited him. The Lord's inciting of David is not the same act as Satan inciting of David. But both accounts are about the same act of David numbering the Israelites out of pride.
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02-03-2017, 12:48 PM | #1275 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Good question. I consider my reading of these verses to be the crystal clear pure word of God. Is that zany enough for you?
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02-03-2017, 01:18 PM | #1276 | |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
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Suffering because of being tortured has nothing to do with the fact of living by the "sweat of the brow." Suggesting that the two are even remotely similar is to prove that you are out of touch with reality.
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02-03-2017, 01:57 PM | #1277 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
lol ... You are a character. Now you are sounding like Witness Lee.
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02-03-2017, 02:06 PM | #1278 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-03-2017, 03:16 PM | #1279 |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
OBW , that's not a nice thing to say about your brother, please reconsider, it's getting too personal.
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02-04-2017, 06:28 AM | #1280 |
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Re: The definition of Evil for this thread
Evangelical for moderator.
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02-04-2017, 08:08 AM | #1281 | ||||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The Contemporary English Version (CEV) puts it this way: 2 Samuel 24:1 The Lord was angry at Israel again, and he made David think it would be a good idea to count the people in Israel and Judah. 1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan decided to cause trouble for Israel by making David think it was a good idea to find out how many people there were in Israel and Judah. The facts just don't jibe with your presuppositions, so you reject them. Quote:
Yet, there is a dose of historical reality in that, isn't there? When the leader of a nation makes a mistake or commits an evil deed thousands or even millions of people can suffer. Even the foibles of a powerful leader's character can be amplified to the extent that they become global. The question whether or not there is a free, conscious moral agent who either incites the evil or allows it brings us back to the theological POE.
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02-04-2017, 12:22 PM | #1282 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
And talking about the POE:
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. It's like the Lord has an angel hitman, that delivers evil. God seems very impetuous in this story.
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02-04-2017, 01:54 PM | #1283 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
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02-04-2017, 02:56 PM | #1284 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Anyway, regardless of what your interpretation is it is clear some people view the God of the OT this way and I thank you for sharing why they have this view. I think I have shared all that I need to on my viewpoint, anything more seems like beating a dead horse, but if you want a response to something you can PM me.
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02-04-2017, 05:34 PM | #1285 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I checked the Contemporary English Version's translation of the verses I cited against the Hebrew in Strong's Concordance http://biblehub.com/text/2_samuel/24-16.htm and found it well supported. I understand if you want to rest your case. I still don't see how Biblical inerrantism can be supported given the facts of the text. Nor do I see how God of the Bible can be construed as omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent although I think that's what the authors are seeking. That said, I enjoyed our dialogue. Feel free to PM me anytime.
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02-05-2017, 06:00 AM | #1286 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
But back to the problem of evil. Quote:
This idea of chosen people is evil. It means that anything can be done to the non-chosen. Like : But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: (Deu 20:16) But don't believe it. The authors made it up. There was no slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt for 430 years. That didn't happen. The Israelites were already in Canaan. They were Canaanites. That's what archeology has proven. The idea of chosen people is evil. Look what it's causing today. The stories maybe be fictional, but the results are not. Even Christians believe in the elect. And they want their Lord to come back and fry everyone else (the neighbors Jesus instructed to love in The Great Commandments). The idea of an elect is evil. And it doesn't reflect well on a Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent God.
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02-05-2017, 06:28 AM | #1287 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-05-2017, 09:25 AM | #1288 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-05-2017, 07:37 PM | #1289 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Showing how it applies is your job. For all I know those could be a lesser evils which serves the greater ultimate good, i.e. God's eternal purpose. As I see it, the burden of connecting the dots from the POE to your proposition is on you.
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02-06-2017, 06:24 AM | #1290 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Zeek is now quoting Trump?
Almost as incredible as the Patriots comeback win.
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02-06-2017, 09:29 AM | #1291 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I'm a non-partisan quoter.
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02-06-2017, 03:05 PM | #1292 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Concerning how the idea of "The Chosen" and "The Elect" is evil, I think that it's obvious to anyone that's able to step back from their tribalistic nature and give it some thought, that, it results in evil for the non-chosen and non-elect. Of course to those that can't see past their tribalism, the non-chosen and the non-elect deserve it. I guess it's not evil if they deserve it. Concerning the possibility of "the greater good" I don't see how the authors of the Torah making up the story of taking the promised land has produced a greater good today, given what's going on in the middle east. In fact, it's causing a problem of evil. This may be considered as a dodge and weave, but it's actually bringing the POE down from the abstract to a reality happening in the world today. On the other hand I could be filling in for our brother ZNP while he's come down to earth.
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02-08-2017, 06:42 AM | #1293 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Let me try to help. If, as Paul said in Romans 3:23 "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" , God, in his infinite grace, offers salvation to all. Nothing tribal about that. It's an offer of free access to all.
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02-14-2017, 07:17 AM | #1294 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
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02-14-2017, 07:30 AM | #1295 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You could argue that it is an offer you can't refuse. But if you don't believe the consequences, then the offer is meaningless. It becomes a "so what."
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02-15-2017, 10:09 AM | #1296 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-15-2017, 11:56 AM | #1297 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
And He didn't or doesn't then we're right back at the POE.
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02-15-2017, 01:57 PM | #1298 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Unlike the God of the POE inquiry, the God who really is all of that is not restricted by my version of what is the best course of action. And if he really is that God, then my opinion is of no consequence, no matter how sound I think it is.
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02-15-2017, 06:48 PM | #1299 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
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03-10-2017, 10:00 AM | #1300 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The curse of Canaan in Genesis 9 after the great flood by which the Lord purified the earth, shows that Noah spoke slavery into being as a curse.
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03-10-2017, 05:59 PM | #1301 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Y'all have to realize how silly all this is. I mean all the races and colors came out of one family? They didn't know it back then, when they were writing, but we today know that's not possible. It's a story ... a Bible story ... but a story nonetheless. This is the problem of evil in a nutshell ; we have to propitiate invisible forces (beings, when personified) to stop evil from getting us. This is why way before Noah, or the Hebrews, or the books of the Bible, even before written language, archeological evidence, so I've read, reveals the first supernatural entities propitiated were of demon like images. That makes all the sense in the world. If you want to stop evil then plead with the evil ones that, they'd show some mercy, and maybe back off. It was later in human development when we thought of propitiating the most powerful of all the supernatural beings, God. That way can be more confident that evil will be held at bay. It's a better way ... we believe ... or at least I have.
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03-10-2017, 06:59 PM | #1302 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Yes it is a curse, just as the crucifixion, hanging on a tree was a curse. How do you understand "by His stripes we are healed"?
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03-10-2017, 07:37 PM | #1303 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Isn't that a subject change?
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03-10-2017, 08:03 PM | #1304 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I don't see how your response relates to my proposition. In our previous discussion you argued that the Lord did the fact that the Lord regulated slavery did not imply that he sanctioned it. Genesis 9 shows that the Lord not only sanctioned and regulated slavery, Noah's originated slavery when he cursed Canaan. There is no mention of slavery prior to the Noah's curse.
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03-10-2017, 08:25 PM | #1305 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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There is no mention of slavery prior to God laying the ground work for human government to deal with sin. Slavery is not the first mention of man being cursed, that goes back to the fall a few chapters earlier. You are equating slavery with a curse, I am equating it with governments response to the curse.
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03-10-2017, 09:30 PM | #1306 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So God gives us the rainbow, and then slavery, right after the only family left on the earth. Some government ... kill everything, and not just the wicked. That's worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin combined. Not a government I want, nor the one the world needs.
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03-10-2017, 09:32 PM | #1307 | ||||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-10-2017, 10:15 PM | #1308 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Why a righteous person would be cursed for being hung on a tree, I don't comprehend. Quote:
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03-11-2017, 04:03 AM | #1309 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Instead I see this as saying -- even if you were the blackest sinner, this is the path you take that leads to life. It would be impossible to take that path on your own, but since Jesus has gone before and opened the way He is the author of our faith. This is why a righteous person was cursed, He was leading the way out of the curse for the rest of us. This is the same with slavery. Why are you so poor and destitute that you need to sell yourself to pay your debts? Maybe 6 months, 2 years, even 12 years a slave is what you need to see your error and find the way out of that curse. Why are you committing crimes that are punishable by being sold as a slave? This can offer the opportunity for a "reset" or "reboot" to your life. There is nothing superstitious about being destitute, homeless or a convicted felon. These are the outflow of some inner problem or issue.
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03-11-2017, 05:49 AM | #1310 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I'm not sure how that relates to my question. I'm asking about how a curse becomes imbued with supernatural power. Why is the Lord bound by curses like the one of Noah on Canaan?
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03-11-2017, 07:02 AM | #1311 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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We all know it, very well I might add. But relate it to the POE -- please pretty please (and hold your flights of fancy to a minimum) or drop it.
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03-11-2017, 12:14 PM | #1312 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I have already said that a generational curse is for 3 or 4 generations. Therefore the Lord is not bound by curses like the one of Noah on Canaan. Also I have already said that curse is an expression of some sin in the character in much the same way as "the wages of sin is death". I am equating "taking up your cross and follow me" with "by His stripes we are healed". There is no better way to be healed from falsely accusing others than to be falsely accused yourself.
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03-11-2017, 05:43 PM | #1313 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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First, Noah wouldn't be the first to wake up with a hangover and start slinging curses at someone, anyone, anything and everything. Second, as the story goes, Noah is just a man ; a descendant of Adam and Eve, after they were thrown out of the garden. Noah did not have supernatural powers, nor the power to curse peoples for thousands of years. And if God got behind Noah's curse, to sustain it, then God got behind slavery. And that reduces Gods' godly status ; it slanders God. As I see it, the major point of the story is to support holding slaves. As I've pointed out elsewhere, slavery existed way before the Hebrews were a glint in Gods' eye ; and it was commonly accepted in those days. So the Hebrews had to jump on the bandwagon, and wrote a story that gave them a right to hold, in this case, the Canaanites as slaves. In the end, that's the purpose of this silly nonsensical story ; to give divine sanction for the Hebrews to hold slaves. But it does speak one truth : slavery is a curse. Amen. Glad we finally caught on. No thanks to the Bible, that doesn't forbid slavery, it's about time. "How, in particular, are we to make sense of modernity— of the erosion of family, tribe, tradition, and religion by the forces of individualism, cosmopolitanism, reason, and science?" ~ Pinker, Steven. The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined . Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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03-11-2017, 07:21 PM | #1314 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Really? Cain? Abel? who do you think was first?
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03-11-2017, 09:37 PM | #1315 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
All of Cain's many wild wives. They didn't have supernatural power either ... just like Noah.
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03-12-2017, 01:13 PM | #1316 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Quote:
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03-12-2017, 02:08 PM | #1317 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?... 3 He is despised and rejected by men,... And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, For the transgressions of My people He was stricken... 9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, The portion is very clear that He suffered the punishment that is reserved for transgressors, our punishment, even though He wasn't a transgressor. As a result we can receive that "vicariously" as you say, we can also be His disciples in the event that we also are unjustly caused to suffer, and of course He can be an inspiration and a guide to us in the even that we are suffering justly for sins we have committed.
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03-12-2017, 08:09 PM | #1318 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
If what you say we're true, a curse would be a mere figure of speech, a metaphor for the natural phenomenon of habit formation. The author of Genesis obvious doesn't intend it that way.
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03-13-2017, 05:14 AM | #1319 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I don't think it is a mere figure of speech. I think that the Bible is written for people to live in a society, that is against our nature. We are not genetically predisposed to be eusocial. If you live according to your flesh you will be cursed. The benefits of human society are a blessing, but we have laws that are enforced to maintain norms that are accepted for living in this society.
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03-13-2017, 01:08 PM | #1320 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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How does that mesh with your "Character is a result of habit, and habit is a result of conscience choice. A bad choice results in bad character which results in a curse on your life." hypothesis? If that's true, wouldn't good choice result in good character? If that's so the flesh might be neutral rather than evil. Whether or not it produced good "fruit" or bad fruit might depend on the "seeds" you chose.
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03-13-2017, 01:42 PM | #1321 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-13-2017, 05:05 PM | #1322 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-13-2017, 05:23 PM | #1323 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-23-2017, 09:44 AM | #1324 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Oklahoma State Rep. Cory Williams (D) asked Rep. George Faught — who authored the bill — if rape is the “will of God.”
“Well, you know, if you read the Bible, there’s actually a couple circumstances where that happened,” Faught began. “The Lord uses all circumstances. Williams followed up, asking if incest is the “will of God.” “Same answer. “You are proffering a divine intervention as the reason why you won’t do that and so I think it is very important.” “This body wants to know — and myself personally — whether you believe rape and incest are actually the will of God,” Williams questioned. so you’re saying that God is not sovereign with every activity that happens in someone’s life and can’t use anything and everything in someone’s life and I disagree with that.” Oklahoma State Rep says rape and incest are the ‘will of God’ in abortion bill hearing http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/watc...-bill-hearing/ This belongs on the POE thread cuz the claim is that in the Bible God allows evil incest and rape.
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03-23-2017, 02:48 PM | #1325 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-23-2017, 08:22 PM | #1326 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Apparently it's easier to call the state rep names than it is to refute his argument based on the sovereignty of God with a valid argument of your own.
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03-24-2017, 04:36 AM | #1327 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Incest and rape are very clearly labeled as sin in the Bible.
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03-24-2017, 04:40 AM | #1328 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
A new problem of evil.
What is the difference between an NFL football contract to play football with the NFL and slavery in the OT? In both cases you are allowed to beat your slave, however, if the slave dies the Bible holds the owner accountable, in the NFL they would not be held accountable. Also, in the Bible the slave holder cannot sell his slave to another person, that also is not true of the NFL, they can send you to any other team. So why is it that those who find the Bible's slavery to be anachronistic and inhuman have not taken issue with the NFL contracts?
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03-24-2017, 06:09 AM | #1329 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
If the god of the bible were omnipotent, he could prevent rape and incest from occurring. Rape and incest occur in the bible. Therefore, God either permits them or he is not omnipotent. In deference to God's omnipotence, this has been called God's "permissive will" as opposed to his "perfect will."
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03-24-2017, 06:13 AM | #1330 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-24-2017, 12:57 PM | #1331 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
2Pe_2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
Lot had children by incest with his daughters ... yet the Bible in 2 Peter says Lot was a just man. But then, maybe the Bible doesn't represent what God considers sin. How can we know? And do you think the 32,000 Midianite virgins (Num. 31:35) that Moses and the Israelites captured were consenting adults? It was God directed.
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03-24-2017, 02:34 PM | #1332 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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If man has a free will then he can do something that is outside of God's will. If he can't then he doesn't have free will.
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03-24-2017, 02:37 PM | #1333 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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We know that God condemns incest because the descendants of incest were forbidden to enter into the congregation of Israel. We know that He condemns rape because He has laws putting rapists to death.
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03-25-2017, 06:01 AM | #1334 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
But it was written long after Lot was incest man. Why bring up a man known for incest?
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And let's just not look at the 32,000 captured virgins ... nothing to see there. But also, let's not look at : "the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!" Let's not call that rape either. Just throw in the towel ZNP. Cuz you're gonna lose this one if you keep on.
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03-25-2017, 06:35 AM | #1335 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Please show me where it is stated in the Bible that God allows evil so that man can have free will.
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03-25-2017, 10:12 AM | #1336 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
If you define evil as sin, then God does not "allow" evil, He condemns it. What God allows is for man to make a choice. However, your choices have consequences and those come from God. Hence, after eating the tree (man's choice despite God's prohibition) there were consequences (death, outcast, curse, etc).
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03-25-2017, 11:55 AM | #1337 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I'll go one further. Where is "free will" even mentioned in the Bible?
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03-25-2017, 12:03 PM | #1338 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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In the book of Genesis we see God give directions to Adam not to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yet man does anyway. This proves that although God forbid it man was still free to make a choice that contradicted God's will, hence man also has his will independent of God. Likewise Zeek asked me to show where God allows evil. I defined evil as sin and said that God does not "allow" it. He prohibits it, as in the example given from Genesis. But, since man has a "free" or "independent" will he can still act in a way that contradicts God, i.e. sinful or evil. We know that this is not allowed by God because these actions bring in consequences from God. In Genesis the consequences were that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, the ground was cursed, and they ultimately died (Death, curse, outcast, etc).
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02-26-2018, 08:38 AM | #1339 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Good personal quote by Billy Graham for this thread ...
“Someone asked me recently if I didn’t think God was unfair, allowing me to have Parkinson’s and other medical problems when I have tried to serve him faithfully. I replied that I did not see it that way at all. Suffering is part of the human condition, and it comes to us all. The key is how we react to it, either turning away from God in anger and bitterness or growing closer to him in trust and confidence.”
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02-26-2018, 08:10 PM | #1340 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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I have a correction to make. Peter Rabbit is hopping all over about this. On his trinity thread I said Bart Ehrman considers himself a Christian. This is fake news. Yes Ehrman was a Baptist preacher. And he performed all the preacher duties ... like funerals ... with heaven in the after life, and all, spoken sincerely of. Then, after his move to Carolina, to teach at Chapel Hill, he became a Episcopalian Christian. Remember, he was born again in his latter teens, and committed his life to serious Bible studies. There's no doubt that Bart was a real Christian, and very serious and given to it. But 4 years ago or so he developed a case of cognitive dissonance, concerning the problem of evil. It's there that he lost faith in a God that intervenes. It just doesn't add up to him that God allows terrible things to happen to innocent children ; like 5 children dying of starvation every minute, and all the terrible things that happen to large numbers of people ; like 200,000 getting swept away in a tsunami, so forth and so on ... et cetera ad nauseum. A God that intervenes, like exemplified in the Bible, like it was an every day common occurrence and happening, doesn't do that today. Why believe in such a God? Ehrman said he didn't get mad at God, he just stopped believing in him. And yes Ehrman has said he's now an atheist. But he self identifies as an agnostic. How does this relate to the Billy Graham quote? Well it says, "Suffering is part of the human condition, and it comes to us all. The key is how we react to it, either turning away from God in anger and bitterness or growing closer to him in trust and confidence.” And Ehrman turned away, but obviously not in anger and bitterness. He just let go ... but didn't let go. He's still studying the Bible and early Christianity. His life is filled and consumed with it. Go figure.
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02-26-2018, 08:42 PM | #1341 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-27-2018, 07:06 AM | #1342 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-27-2018, 07:25 AM | #1343 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Apparently, knowing the Bible doesn't solve the problem of evil, or Ehrman would still be a believer.
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02-27-2018, 08:07 AM | #1344 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Remember, God has commanded us to believe in His Son, His death on that horrible cross, and how He rose from the dead. Shall the vessel say to the Potter, Why did you make me thus?
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02-27-2018, 08:59 AM | #1345 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Yes, living Vessel's that suffer have damn good reasons to ask : "Why does the Potter allow suffering?" Also, if God has the back picture why does He allow suffering without explaining why? Not knowing is just more torture added to the senseless suffering, that He could stop, if He's omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving and caring. The existence of evil proves our conception of God is in our image and wrong. Actually, not even in our own image. Cuz humans have feelings, and if we had the power, and the knowledge, and cared, we'd stop senseless suffering. But not God. Our conception of God is wrong because, He clearly lacks one or more of the Omni's ... that is clearly OUR conception of God. Our Omni's, and suffering, means, we believe in an imperfect God. And an imperfect God is no god at all. So, in the end, we're actually believing in a very scary and unpredictable, invisible, beast.
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02-27-2018, 09:18 AM | #1346 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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No God? Only a fool would say in his heart there is no God.
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02-27-2018, 09:19 AM | #1347 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Threatening people with eternal damnation based on ancient texts without a demonstrable basis in fact doesn't solve the problem. Terror isn't knowledge. Who made the Potter? If he always existed, there's no explanation for that fact. All you've done is displace the mystery that anything exists from the creation to the creator. How is an uncreated creator more tenable than an uncreated creation in terms of explaining anything?
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02-27-2018, 09:24 AM | #1348 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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It says humans are in God's image. Clearly that image is imperfect. Adam and Eve weren't perfect, our they would have chosen the tree of life.
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02-27-2018, 09:26 AM | #1349 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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02-27-2018, 09:28 AM | #1350 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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And He has given you the Lamb of God to take away your sins.
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02-27-2018, 03:10 PM | #1351 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I get that. That there's loads of info about God in the Bible. But not enough info to explain why He allows suffering of the innocents.
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He scares me. He stopped Isaac, but He let His innocent Son suffer and die. A guy like that is scary. Especially since He's God, and could have worked out a more humane way to forgive our sins ; like He did for King Manasseh.
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04-10-2018, 09:06 AM | #1352 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I was hoping to have a discussion with Seeker about Gnosticism, certainly an important topic for Christianity. Suddenly the thread which he started disappeared. Why?
Perhaps the best answer to the Problem of Evil entails the possibility of human freedom. God permitted evil so that good would be revealed in contrast to it. Jesus was an imitator of God. He taught that " for whatever God the father does, the Son also does in like manner." [John 5:19] Why can't LCD and Alt Views in particular let what is false be expressed so that the truth can be known? To do so would be to imitate God as Jesus did. If, freedom in general and freedom of speech in particular is the highest or among the highest principles of God, then historically Christianity has committed many sins against God. Nevertheless, this principle is clearly revealed in the Christian Bible and by the Spirit throughout history. Let s/he who has ears to hear and eyes to see take note.
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04-10-2018, 09:35 AM | #1353 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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UntoHim's mission limits us to a "niche market."
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04-10-2018, 11:51 AM | #1354 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Apparently it's a niche market too narrow for the imitation of Christ.
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04-10-2018, 12:02 PM | #1355 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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It adds up that he'd take Gnosticism off the main forum, but not off AltVs. Something else must be going on, that Untohim knows that we don't. When people register they have to give out legit info. And also, Untohim can see the originating IP address, or where they are. Who knows, Steel may have been a troll, signing in from LSM IP addresses. Let's give our brother a chance to explain.
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04-10-2018, 12:20 PM | #1356 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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04-10-2018, 12:50 PM | #1357 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Not sure if he was a true believing Gnostic or not, but from what you say, or pointed out, he sure spouted like one. To most Gnostics, prolly not all, as they were a diverse bunch, thought the Demiurge did all those nasty killing things, cuz he wasn't of Jesus' true high God. But if Steel was spouting rotten nasty hate, and not even willing to discuss the merits, or not, of Gnosticism, then good riddance. Still, Gnosticism isn't off topic on AltVs, as far as I'm concerned. But if Steel represents the way the early Gnostic's were and acted, maybe it is. Steel gave Gnostics even a worse name than they already have.
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04-10-2018, 06:34 PM | #1358 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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04-10-2018, 08:17 PM | #1359 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Seeker's last post was on the 6th. Untohim announced on the 9th that Seeker was banned and deleted.
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04-11-2018, 01:00 AM | #1360 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I was merely pointing out that you misidentified him as "Steele" in posts #1355 and #1357.
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04-11-2018, 05:01 AM | #1361 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
My bad ..... Thanks .....
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04-11-2018, 08:09 AM | #1362 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
When Untohim moved Seekers Gnostic thread to AltVs I wasn't sure if he knew it had been moved. So I PM'ed him to let him know.
Now I feel bad ... and disappointed. I feel I welcomed him to AltV's, where he could openly discuss Gnosticism, and it wasn't true. I feel like Jonah, under the gourd, complaining because I look like a liar. And my gourd has been wormed.
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04-16-2018, 08:29 PM | #1363 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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04-17-2018, 04:54 AM | #1364 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What we really think of as the POE is really instances where man sins and / or falls short of the glory of God. 1. Murderer 2. Rapist 3. Child dying from incurable (for us) disease 4. Natural disaster You cannot argue that any suffering is right or wrong unless you feel there is an underlying standard for right and wrong. Not your personal standard, but a universal standard. Also, the POE is really only a problem for atheists. If you are an atheist no suffering is ever set right. For a believer you believe that at most this is a temporary state that will work out an eternal weight of glory. You can see in light of eternity this suffering could be something you are one day thankful for and give God glory for.
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04-17-2018, 01:11 PM | #1365 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I personally think part of afterlife belief is to content and comfort the masses in unfair or unjust situations...less motivation to insight change if all present wrongs will be ambiguously repaid
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04-17-2018, 01:12 PM | #1366 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Wouldn't it be better to prepare for this time yourself?
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04-18-2018, 09:07 PM | #1367 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Too busy with what needs to be done in the present time, which is the only guarantee. No one disagrees that what we currently live in is real, but their is a hell a lot of disagreement and basically no evidence about what happens after you die.
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04-19-2018, 09:13 PM | #1368 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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04-20-2018, 01:35 PM | #1369 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Ecc: was a book I was quite fond of. It seems to espouse world views that don't quite mesh with the rest of the Bible
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04-20-2018, 04:06 PM | #1370 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Maybe that's because the author needed Prozac.
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03-15-2019, 05:31 AM | #1371 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Just bringing this thread to the front.
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03-15-2019, 05:32 AM | #1372 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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03-15-2019, 05:57 AM | #1373 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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That thread was placed in Alt-Views because it falls outside of the orthodox Christian faith.
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03-15-2019, 06:07 AM | #1374 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Everyone on all sides of this debate conclude that "evil" is derivative of man's free will, another teaching that is central to WL's teachings and to orthodox teachings in general. I realize that some proponents of this "problem" come to the conclusion that either God doesn't exist or else God created evil. I come to a different conclusion that is based on the NT. A simplistic summary of the various NT verses relevant to this discussion would be that this life is analogous to a simulation. No one considers that intentionally crashing a commercial airline on a flight simulator is "evil". We do know from the NT that what you do in this life will determine your judgement at either the judgment seat of Christ or the Great White Throne. That also corresponds with the idea that this life is like a flight simulator that will determine if we get a license or not.
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03-15-2019, 07:16 AM | #1375 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Well with the Christchurch massacre it's timely.
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03-15-2019, 07:33 AM | #1376 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
The book of Job settled the issue even before Moses wrote his first book.
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03-15-2019, 07:52 AM | #1377 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Twice in the book of Job it says that he did not sin in blaming God. Then in chapter 42 God says: 7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. So it is very clear that Job did not speak anything concerning God that he needed to repent for. So, my question is this: what was it that Job was repenting for? This question was very helpful to me in dealing with what happened with the LC.
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03-15-2019, 07:54 AM | #1378 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Ironic that a massacre at a Mosque is called "the Christchurch massacre".
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03-15-2019, 07:57 AM | #1379 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Okay, now that I have your attention, let me explain. Evil is not a thing in itself. It is the absence of something, as darkness is the absence of light, or cold is the absence of heat. Darkness and cold are not really things at all, they are the absence of other things. So God did not create darkness, he created light. But light can be absent. In the same way, evil is the absence of good. It is the absence of following God's will. So, by creating creatures who could disobey, God in a sense created evil. But again evil is not a thing, an essence with its own existence. It is the absence of something else. So God didn't so much create evil as DEFINE it. If he is all that is good, and he creates beings who can understand that and choose, how could it be any other way? So evil doesn't exist, the ability to disobey God does, which results in what we call evil. Evil in a sense is a vacuum, that's why C.S. Lewis said hell is the next thing to nothing. |
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03-15-2019, 07:59 AM | #1380 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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03-15-2019, 08:09 AM | #1381 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Self-righteousness and not justifying God. Elihu provides excellent wisdom in the book, the 3 friends were worthless.
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03-15-2019, 08:18 AM | #1382 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
Any Christian who has gone through a severe personal crisis knows what Job was going through. His situation did not reflect what he felt should be. In those moments, what do we do? We start to wonder if God knows what he was doing. That's what Job did.
The wonderful part about it is God did not condemn Job for it, he just said "Don't you know who I am? Don't you think I know what I am doing?!" If God can be driven crazy, it must be this that drives him crazy--people thinking he's some kind of dummy who doesn't know what he is doing. That's the whole test. In those confusing situations, where things don't seem to be going right, can you truly trust him, or are you going to "shrink back in unbelief." And even though Job wasn't perfect, God was satisfied with the lesson, and restored Job. That is grace. |
03-15-2019, 08:20 AM | #1383 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
It's also ironic that Trump tweeted sympathy for the Muslim victims -- not presidential ... tweeting it is tone deaf.
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03-15-2019, 08:24 AM | #1384 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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It is hard to conclude "self righteousness" when you see what God says about him in chapter 1 and about what he does and about how he reacts to the crisis. What you might conclude is self righteousness is simply him telling the 3 worthless friends that their conclusion about him sinning is wrong.
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03-15-2019, 09:21 AM | #1385 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
It's all about God teaching us to trust and obey him, as the great theological cartoon "Tooter Turtle" taught us so many times.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s2...8jLusU6WiT891r |
03-15-2019, 11:35 AM | #1386 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Your endless hatred for the guy really stinks this place up.
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03-15-2019, 07:09 PM | #1387 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I'm just getting started ... there's way more.
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03-16-2019, 02:27 AM | #1388 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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1. Sinned and 2. Fallen short of the Glory of God. The book of Job makes it abundantly clear that Job had not sinned. God says as much in chapter 1, then twice the book of Job says he doesn't sin after the calamities strike. Job's 3 friends assumed he must have sinned and God condemns them, tells them to repent and only forgives them after Job prays for them. Job says that it was seeing God's glory that caused him to repent. For example, suppose you were a soccer coach struggling to have a winning team. One reason to repent could be that you were caught up in this recent Admissions scandal, taking a bribe. That would be a sin. But another reason would be that during all your struggles you had some kid sitting on the bench, not playing, and then one day you got the revelation that this kid was Pele. Now you feel like an idiot and despise your "coaching skill".
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03-16-2019, 07:58 AM | #1389 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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But Job fell short in some sense, whether you want to call that sin or not. I guess you could say he failed to see God's greatness. But he did something wrong or God would not have spoken to him the way he did. But God's grace received him back. The point of Job is not about Job's perfection. It's about that he experienced a suffering out of character with the type of person he was. It's about "why do bad things happen to good people." Job was right. He didn't deserve it. But in the end, God doesn't even go there. His point to Job is "I'm God and I know what I'm doing. Get used to it." That's the point of the whole book. Possibly the "not sinning" is a way of saying wrestling with God is not a sin, even if in the end God is going to win and teach you something. |
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03-16-2019, 08:35 AM | #1390 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
Also, what does it mean when it says "Job did not sin?' We are not saying that through this ordeal Job never sinned once, are we? Who has gone a day without sinning? Was Job sin free?
I think it when it says "Job did not sin" it must mean something particular--possibly that Job did not denounce God or his faith, like his wife did. |
03-16-2019, 09:02 AM | #1391 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Personally I think it is a crucial book at the heart of God's plan.
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03-16-2019, 09:04 AM | #1392 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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Whether our life is a bed of roses, or an endless disaster, our God is good, He is the Potter, He alone is holy, He alone is righteous, He alone has created the heavens and the earth, He alone should be exalted, and He alone should be justified here on earth. (Romans 3.4, 11.32-36) Unfortunately Job challenged God, saying, "I cry out to God, but He ignores me. You turn on me ruthlessly, with the might of Your hand You attack me. You toss me about in the storm. You bring me down to death." (Job 29) Job thus misrepresented God and vindicated himself as an effort to shame God into treating him better. Job wrongly projected his own experiences onto God, claiming that God's love, God's power, or God's omniscience was somehow deficient. Herein lies the failure: When life is good for us, we extol God's love, but when things go bad, God's care is questioned. This really matches what aron has recently shared about Jesus, e.g. "Which is why I keep pointing to the experiences of Jesus in the Bible. They have been validated. "No one can do the works you do, unless God is with him." This goes up to the cross, and beyond. "He rescued me, because he delighted in me". The Father delighted in the Obedient Son, and raised him from death." This is why our faith needs proving. Job's faith, while apparently perfect to all around him, still needed to be proved. The proving of our faith is like the proving of gold to purify its quality. The proving of our faith is thus more precious than all the gold in this world. Peter learned this lesson (1.7) via his own trials. Praise Him.
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03-16-2019, 09:07 AM | #1393 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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The book of Job is really not about sin at all. Discussing sin is a distraction from the message of Job.
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03-16-2019, 10:00 AM | #1394 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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1. God begins with talking about laying the foundation, and do you know my plans, and He reveals that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Him, even Job admitting he has been a fool. 2. God asks Job if he knows God's laws and if he is going to establish God's justice on Earth? These are things that Jesus did. 3. He also asks if Job has an arm like God or a voice like God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He does have such an arm, such a voice. Everything God is saying is revealing that the Christ in us, the hope of glory, has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden in Him. Job may have thought he was something special, but after seeing God he despised himself and realized he had fallen far short of the glory of God. Prior to all this he "sacrificed for his children" but after this he prayed for his friends. In chapter 1 Jobs sphere of influence was constrained to his family, afterwards he was broadened to see that he could be a blessing to everyone, family and friends. As a result he received a double blessing.
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03-16-2019, 10:26 AM | #1395 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The theological problem of evil doesn't need the New Zealand shooter to make its argument but okay. For those enamored of the Free Will argument I suppose it illustrates once again just how far God will go with his prime directive. If you can see the absolute goodness in that proposition, please explain how.
On different note, To quote Frank Schaeffer" the shooter's manifesto praised Trump as ' symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.' Let this sink in. A u.s. president is the inspiration of white terrorists around the world. Let that sink in."
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03-16-2019, 11:21 AM | #1396 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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That doesn't mean he wasn't already "perfect" or obedient. But perfection which has passed a test is more perfect than that which hasn't; and actually obeying is more obedient than not having had the experience of doing so. We are going through the same process. Personally I think God's ultimate goal is to produce beings with true free will, but which never sin. That takes a process of perfecting experience. God can create just about anything instantly. But he cannot create a real experience instantly, because real experiences takes time, and are what time is for. |
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03-16-2019, 11:58 AM | #1397 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The problem of evil is easily solved by realizing that it is possible that a greater good can be achieved by allowing evil temporarily. If you want to ask why evil is allowed in the first place, all you have to do is answer why athletes have to "suffer" training to be winners.
The only question then becomes "How much evil is to be allowed?" The answer, of course, is as much as is necessary. So the problem people really have is that they think God should allow less evil. But only God would know how much evil is necessary. People don't understand why God needs to allow this or that terrible thing. But all you are saying by objecting is that you know better than God what is necessary to fulfill his purpose. So the problem of evil is not the conundrum it's made out to be. We easily understand the necessity of short-term suffering for long-term gain. If the suffering were permanent, there would be a philosophical problem. But that is not the case. |
03-16-2019, 12:10 PM | #1398 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Saying that God "allows" evil ducks the question of where did it come from. According to the Bible "all things came into being through the word and apart from the word nothing came into being that has come into being". So then if there is evil in the world God did not merely allow it, He created it. Since there is no darkness in Him how could He create darkness? Saying that it is short term or any other way to minimize the evil done by Hitler, Nero, and others is an insult. If there is any evil at all then it came from God and that is contrary to the NT. On the other hand God is clearly going to judge the works of the flesh as evil. So we have a problem, the problem of evil. However, there is a solution to this "problem". If human life is likened to a simulation, like a flight simulator. Life could then reveal the heart without there actually being any real evil, only the appearance of evil.
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03-16-2019, 12:28 PM | #1399 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Evil does not exist. |
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03-16-2019, 12:46 PM | #1400 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
To illustrate, you cannot create darkness or cold directly. You can only remove light or remove heat. My dad was in AC/Refrigeration. He explained it to me. Refrigeration technology removes heat from the air, thus resulting in relative cold. But no technology can produce cold directly. And no technology can produce darkness directly. There are no "darkness beams," only light beams, or the absence thereof.
This shows how God has no opposite. There is Yang, but no Yin. There is only God, or the absence of God. If evil existed as a thing in itself, it would have to come from an eternal source of evil, an anti-God, God's opposite. But that is not the case. |
03-16-2019, 01:10 PM | #1401 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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These events are "unrighteous" meaning they are not according to God. Therefore, what are they according to? Where did they come from?
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03-16-2019, 01:12 PM | #1402 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
So what the problem of evil really has a problem with is free will, or at least free will than can choose to disobey God. But for moral creatures that is the only kind of free will there is that has any meaning.
Some say, well, God should have made us so good and smart that we would never choose evil. But I think that exactly where God is trying to take his creation. But, apparently, without real experiences of evil, we never would have had a real appreciation of how bad it is. Every sentient creature he has created has fallen. I mean, isn't it the fact that we don't appreciate the consequences of not following God's will that makes it so hard so follow it in the first place? |
03-16-2019, 01:13 PM | #1403 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So when God judges the adulterers and sorcerers, what exactly is he judging, nothing? How can you have the works of the flesh if your definition of sin is absolute 0?
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03-16-2019, 01:18 PM | #1404 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You said it yourself. They are evil because they are not according to God. They are not evil because some source outside of God defines what is evil. Evil is what is contrary to God. So are you asking why someone would disobey God? Just ask Satan. They disobey God because they want to disobey him. They want self-will. Really they want to be God. |
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03-16-2019, 01:20 PM | #1405 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But they aren't quite nothing, because they still exist. C.S. Lewis called them "damned ghosts," something that fades away to the edges, but never quite completely. |
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03-16-2019, 01:39 PM | #1406 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
As I said, evil is disobeying God. So to ask why there is evil, ask why someone would disobey God. And all you have to do to answer that question is ask yourself why you do it. There's your answer.
No one does evil just to do evil. At some level they think what they are doing is "good," or they wouldn't be doing it. That's true for Hitler, Ted Bundy and the 9/11 terrorists. Evil, then, can be seen as a perversion of good. Which, again, make the case that evil as a thing in itself does not exist. It's a vacuum, an absence, or at least a perversion, of good. |
03-16-2019, 01:41 PM | #1407 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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God says He didn't create the Earth waste and void. So then, who did? If you agree that the Earth became waste and void and if you agree that all things came into being through the word of God and nothing that has come into being came into being apart from the word of God, then how did the Earth become waste and void? Yes, everyone agrees that evil is derivative of man's free will, if man could not choose to disobey God he would not have a free will, we also agree that God created man with a free will, so Free will was part of God's creation and all that that entails. Therefore God is responsible for evil. He created a world where there must be evil. However, that is a direct contradiction of the word of God. However, the minute man disobeyed God we were no longer in eternity but the world instantly morphed into a temporary state with time. In Revelation it ultimately says that "time will be no more". My understanding at present is that this temporary world where time exists, outside of eternity, is similar to a simulation. Is there evil in a flight simulator? You can have "terrorists", "hijacked planes", "murder", and catastrophes with hundreds of people "dying" yet no one thinks that any of that is "evil". It is a simulation, regardless of how real it is. It is a "momentary lightness of affliction".
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03-16-2019, 01:48 PM | #1408 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That is only half of the equation. You have the person who commits the sin, and you have the victim of that sin. 6 million people are killed in gas chambers during the Holocaust. That is due to some people disobeying God. But God is responsible. He created those people who disobeyed, He gave them the capacity to do what they did. If I worship God as "Lord of all" then I have to worship Him as "Lord of all". So then, how can God be responsible for this evil without knowing evil? Again, the only explanation I can see is that this construct of time, which is temporary and will be done away with, is similar to a simulation. The Bible teaches this. Your life in this simulation cannot exceed 120 years and yet that is an illusion since we are told in the Bible that the soul is eternal. We are surrounded with a cloud of witnesses. The dead in Christ will rise first. Jesus pulled the veil away from this illusion. It says He brought to light eternal life. This was based on the promise made to David that his heir would not see corruption.
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03-16-2019, 01:50 PM | #1409 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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03-16-2019, 03:05 PM | #1410 |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
Not necessarily, because Jesus was 100% obedient, yet still had to learn obedience. Only God know how much "practice" we need before we are ready for the "big leagues."
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03-16-2019, 03:05 PM | #1411 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-16-2019, 03:08 PM | #1412 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So, again, what you are objecting to is not evil per se, but the choice to choose it. Which means you are also objecting to the choice to choose good, because you can't have one without the other. So basically you are objecting to God creating anything of moral consequence. |
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03-16-2019, 03:15 PM | #1413 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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So the death of his children and the loss of everything he owned and the horrible skin disease was practice? What was the "big leagues"? There is no mention of him ever losing anything after that.
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03-16-2019, 03:24 PM | #1414 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The upshot of your argument is that no one should make anything that can be used for bad, including God. Which is another way of saying no one should make anything of any real consequence. Without the potential for evil, there is no potential for real good, like love or kindness. Is that what you want? Because that's where your argument is leading. |
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03-16-2019, 03:37 PM | #1415 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Eventually what you are saying is that God should not have created beings with the potential to love him, because in order to truly love anything you must have the power to choose not to love it, or it's not really love. Lack of loving God is the source of all evil in history, which you say God is responsible for. So if God is wrong in that, he was wrong to create beings with the power to love him. That's basically where your argument leads.
Do you think God was wrong to make creatures who have the power to love him? |
03-16-2019, 03:52 PM | #1416 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Here are some Bible verses on evil, lets see if this is a good explanation: As I have observed, those who plow evil and those who sow trouble reap it. They conceive trouble and give birth to evil Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. The gospel refers to “the evil one”, and an evil person. We pray to deliver us from evil. In that day Jesus will say “away from me evil doers”. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. We have an evil age, and “the days are evil” and there are “spiritual forces of evil” God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. Instead people are tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire. Boasting is evil. So when I read these verses none of them suggest that "evil" refers to something good that God created that we are now using for a different purpose. Instead it is the "evil doers" that give birth to evil. They are the ones with evil thoughts. It was after we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that we knew evil. So then God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In my understanding we were told not to eat it because the day in which we ate it we would die. Sure enough, from the moment we ate from that tree eternal souls became mortal with a maximum time span. My explanation is that this tree is like entering a simulation where you can know good and evil. You enter the simulation by disobeying God. As a result you can learn what happens if you disobey, where that leads, and how your actions will result in you reaping what you sow. However, it is a simulation, so no real evil is done. Hitler can gas people in the simulation, but that does not in any way impact their immortal soul. Just as the Bible says, 4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
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03-16-2019, 03:52 PM | #1417 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Saying God is responsible for the evil acts of his creatures is like saying a father is responsible for the evil acts of his son. Again, it's just a bad argument. It's based on equivocation. There are implicitly two meanings of "responsible." One is saying that evil couldn't have happened if he hadn't had the son. The other is saying he is directly to blame for his sons' evil.
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03-16-2019, 03:53 PM | #1418 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-16-2019, 03:54 PM | #1419 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I was speaking of our will and all our other faculties. They can be used for good or evil. They are the "knife" which can be misused.
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03-16-2019, 03:57 PM | #1420 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Well, maybe zeek was saying it more than you.
But the whole "problem of evil" problem, when worked out, either leads to that conclusion, or to the conclusion that allowing the potential of evil also allowed for a greater good, so is justified. Ergo: Either, God was wrong to create creatures who could love him, because the potential for evil was not worth it. Or, God was not wrong to create creatures who could love him, because the potential for evil was worth it. |
03-16-2019, 04:11 PM | #1421 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Therefore a victim of the Holocaust, or Job, either one, can say that the ultimate responsibility for what happened to them was God. Nothing happens that He does not allow, yet He very clearly condemns many things. However, the Bible in many places, both OT and NT says you have no basis to blame God for the evil that has happened to you. That creates a problem, how do you reconcile two facts. First, God is over all. All things have their being in Him. and Second, God is not responsible for evil. He doesn't do evil, in Him there is no evil, and He does not tempt us to do evil. I do not deny that evil exists, because the Bible doesn't that is a lame attempt at semantics for a solution. I agree that evil is derivative of man's free will, yet again, do not see that as exculpatory. Instead, I see many verses that tell me I am immortal, and this life I am living is a vapor, a smoke, a momentary lightness of affliction. The NT tells me that I should not fear those who can kill my body, rather I should be afraid of Him who has authority over my soul. All of the evil that can occur to a person can only affect their body, it has no power on the soul. Also, if a thousand years is as a day to an immortal God what is our lifetime to us if we also have immortal souls? So likening our life to a 2 hour simulation in which we learn to know good and evil seems to fit the Biblical record.
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03-16-2019, 04:13 PM | #1422 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What is evil? Why / How did God create it? Or if that is too difficult, how does a God in whom there is no darkness create a universe that is evil, with an evil world, evil powers, evil thoughts, and evil doers?
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03-16-2019, 04:27 PM | #1423 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-16-2019, 04:48 PM | #1424 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. There is a problem here. "Sin entered the world". What is sin? Did God create it? According to other verses God did not create sin, He knows no sin, there is no sin in Him, He does not tempt us to sin. The result of sin was death which reigned from the time of Adam. It sounds sort of like sin is a virus that kills us and that all people are infected with. However, John says 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Which again brings us to the question "did God create sin?" So to get around this WL personifies it and equates sin with Satan. According to WL Satan was created as a good angel, Lucifer, who fell from his pride in thinking he would be like God. This is the same temptation that Eve fell for the fruit would make her like God. So we cannot deny that God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which can make one to know good and evil. But, if you cannot explain the purpose of this tree then it is very difficult to define sin, how it was created, and what it was that infected all mankind. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Bible is very clear, God created the tree and planted it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Sin is not charged to anyone's account where there is no law, but we were given this commandment to not eat it, and if we did eat it the "charge" would be death. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” This is not a lie, God confirms as much. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” To not allow us to take of the tree of life suggests more laws.
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03-16-2019, 06:02 PM | #1425 | |
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Re: Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology
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UntoHim, Please feel free to move the Job discussion to the problem of evil thread in Alt. |
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03-16-2019, 06:06 PM | #1426 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-16-2019, 06:10 PM | #1427 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-16-2019, 06:20 PM | #1428 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
The option to love God by definition must include the option to choose not to, i.e. choose evil. Therefore, if you object that God gave us the option to chose evil, you are also objecting that he gave us the option to choose love.
So, say it. "God was wrong to give us the option to choose love." Or stop complaining about the potential for evil. Saying "I'm glad that God gave us the option to love him, but not that he gave us the option to choose evil" is to speak an absurdity. It is also hypocritical. |
03-16-2019, 07:30 PM | #1429 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people Adam "created" sin? When Paul says sin "entered" he really means that Adam created it? Paul says that due to one man's sin all die, but you are saying that it is up to me? My death is simply my creation? Nothing you say matches the words in the Bible. I am simply repeating the Bible which is true, not because I am repeating it, but because it is the truth.
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03-16-2019, 07:49 PM | #1430 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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If a lion leaps out and eats my child I would consider that an evil event. But it's not evil. The lion is not being evil, he's eating lunch. He's following the laws God put into his nature. So if people are following the laws God put into their nature, then humans are following the animal nature that God created them as. The results are as clear as the lion eating my child. And if God is light, and no darkness, then God is absent from most of the universe. Then again, I hear it stated that, God is perfection. But His creation is separate from Him and so doesn't share His perfection. Which means that even light, in His creation, is not the light of God. So there must be other sources of light other than God. That's why the evil is the absence of good analogy doesn't hold water very well. It sounds more like a rationale ... trying to perchance offload the blame for evil off of God. God created all that is created as the Logos, so John claims, so created evil. Evil goes back to the manufacturer. Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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03-17-2019, 05:50 AM | #1431 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Privation theory renders God remote from the real world we live in. According to the gospels Jesus spent every day of his ministry battling evil. Was he fighting against nothing? How absurd.
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03-17-2019, 08:27 AM | #1432 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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We need light to see our way. We can't see when it's dark without it. But does privation explain evil? Is evil the same as light and darkness, black and white? Those are cute analogies, that sound right, but only go that far. Evil is not the absence of good like darkness is the absence of light. I don't think it actually works that way. The truth is Theo-dicy is just that; Theo is god, and dicy is, well dicey ; or, God being dicey. In fact, it's so dicey we can't figure it out, so the notion of privation was cooked up ; to say, there, we solved the problem of evil. But none of that stops evil. There just has to be a powerful ultimate force behind it. The question then becomes : what force? Who, or what, do we blame? It's not enough to say that light is to blame for darkness for being absent, and good is to blame for being absent. Who, or what, makes them absent?
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03-17-2019, 08:32 AM | #1433 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-17-2019, 12:29 PM | #1434 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
It's a fact. What, did you think you invented the argument? And you didn't even respond to the rest of my argument. I have entertained the privation argument for years. Clement and Augustine employed it. It gives a little relief from the cognitive dissonance that the POE brings a believer in the theistic concept of God which is based on a Greek philosophical interpretation of the Judeo-Christian God and not strictly Biblical. But, that's ok. Run away. You got in over your head and scared yourself. You're probably afraid you might learn something new that shakes your faith. I understand. That can happen when your faith is in a concept rather than the living God or when you have conflated one with the other as we probably all have at one time or another. Be at peace, brother.
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03-17-2019, 01:43 PM | #1435 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-17-2019, 06:27 PM | #1436 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-17-2019, 08:00 PM | #1437 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
But then we don't really know each other so...
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03-18-2019, 05:01 AM | #1438 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But, there are other questions. For example, what is the implication for "evil" when the Lord says to not fear those who can kill the body but can't harm the soul?
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03-18-2019, 05:30 AM | #1439 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
But then you don't know Igzy either, and it didn't stop you.
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03-18-2019, 05:42 AM | #1440 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Look at Luke chapter 16. Those obsessed with the POE would say that the poor man named Lazarus got screwed in this life, and thus God's love, God's knowing, or God's power should be seriously examined. Having only Part 1 of this story reinforces their complaints. But Luke provides Part 2 of the story, where poor Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, and was rewarded for his faith in hearing Moses and the Prophets. Meanwhile the rich man was suffering, and was reminded of the good life he once enjoyed. Thus the Lord's ultimate warning: Do not fear those who can kill the body but can't harm the soul."
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03-18-2019, 05:46 AM | #1441 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Oh sure. And I welcome him to correct me if got any of that wrong.
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03-18-2019, 11:07 AM | #1442 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
As Billy Hoyle said in White Men Can't Jump, "You're not getting to me. You're just making my eardrums hurt."
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18Q...fOdicJAhxjt2Wb Try to keep in mind the board doesn't exist to be a platform for you to strut on, Sidney... I mean zeek. |
03-18-2019, 11:58 AM | #1443 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-18-2019, 12:06 PM | #1444 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
People have been claiming that kind of thing for centuries. And God is still good and there is still evil in the world, which is an ultimately an indictment of the POE itself. If that's an act of faith, well, ultimately everything we do is at some level based on faith--if only faith in "reason," and that we actually have any.
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03-18-2019, 12:36 PM | #1445 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
"If you laid all the philosophers in the world end to end, they would never reach a conclusion."
I have never said the POE was not an interesting issue. I just said it is inconclusive in its classical sense, which says God cannot be all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful if evil exists in the world, i.e. evil disproves God. As I've said, if you can conceive that an ultimate greater good can be achieved by allowing evil in the world temporarily, then that claim does not hold. From there the POE just becomes a discussion on the details--all of which, no matter how answered, add up to something that is still inconclusive. No one ever said here, I hope, that faith in God is not necessary. Faith in God is required because something about our conception of him from our perspective is inconclusive. But that doesn't mean he doesn't exist, only that we can't prove it. Well, we believe in and act on many things we can't prove. Since when has proof been necessary for life? Actually the opposite is true. Faith is necessary for life. So the real question is not whether we take things on faith, because we all do, but what do we take on faith and why. Life is a journey of faith, whether we include God or not, whether we like it or not. Subjects like the POE are either gremlins or cherubs along the way, either helping us or confusing us. But none of them actually prove anything. They are all just part of the evidence, not the conclusion. God's eventual question to us is not going to be, What could you prove? It's going to be, Having realized you couldn't prove much, what did you decide to believe and why? When that time comes, is anyone planning on whipping out the POE? Last edited by Cal; 03-18-2019 at 02:59 PM. |
03-18-2019, 05:10 PM | #1446 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Correct me if I'm wrong awareness and/or zeek, but I have long thought that this was part of your strategy?
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03-18-2019, 06:04 PM | #1447 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I'll correct you. The POE has troubled me for a long time. No strategy. Maybe it's an unsolvable puzzle ... without denigrating God for it. And that's why no one wants to dig into it. No one wants to make God look bad, including me. The Bible does enough of that.
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03-18-2019, 07:40 PM | #1448 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So, not having a full understanding of what is ultimately good and what is ultimately evil, we can be like the child who thinks not getting to eat jellybeans all day is "bad," and childishly think something in the Bible makes God "look bad"... Harold. |
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03-18-2019, 08:44 PM | #1449 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Those that bless and honor God in this life will be blessed by God in the next. So, you have been reading the Bible wrong. The Bible I read honors God.
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03-19-2019, 03:30 AM | #1450 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-19-2019, 06:20 AM | #1451 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I agree ... But it hurts Igzy's ears.
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03-19-2019, 06:46 AM | #1452 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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According to Christian theologian Lactantius, based on the argument Epicurus concluded that there is no all-powerful all good God and that the gods are distant and uninvolved in human concerns. Now obviously Christianity is incompatible with that conclusion because it portrays a God who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. But it is possible that the omnipotent, omni-benevolent, omniscient conception of God contemplated in the problem of evil is somehow inadequate. If so the problem can be thought of as one of the human intellect rather than God's. It may be that those who are captured by faith must put it in one who is beyond their understanding. Another alternative is to join the theological pursuit of a more adequate concept of God. A third alternative is to hold on to the traditional orthodox definition of God dogmatically. The fourth way is to reject God. This can be done in a variety of ways. But if God is love and love is enduring, unshakable and stronger than death, none will ultimately be successful.
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03-19-2019, 07:23 AM | #1453 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Which it can. Since we can cite many examples of short-term evil being leveraged to produce long-term good which could not have been produced otherwise, it is not much of a stretch to conceive that God could use such an approach to produce in his creation qualities that could not have been there otherwise. And if those qualities by definition require experiences, then those experiences must actually happen. As one apologist put it, our world cannot be said to be the best possible world, but it can be said to be the best way to the best possible world. |
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03-19-2019, 07:32 AM | #1454 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Being "beyond our understanding" should never mean that we cannot know Him. Even the very least among mankind can know Him and love Him. I've seen this with the special needs. For that matter, even my wife at times is "beyond my understanding." Complete "understanding" should never be a criteria for love.
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03-19-2019, 08:04 AM | #1455 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Many people have been through traumatic experiences which they realize in retrospect changed them for the better.
They often say, "What happened was bad. But I wouldn't change it. It made me the person I am." When we hear that we understand--though it is still somewhat paradoxical, because it seems at some level to be saying evil is good. The same principle can apply with God's purpose, and there is even more mysterious. What happened to humanity was bad. What happens when evil happens is bad. But God wouldn't change it because of what it is producing. Who has the wisdom to know what that process should or shouldn't look like? Well, certainly, if anyone, only him. |
03-19-2019, 09:05 AM | #1456 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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God even allows Satan to endlessly smear His reputation on this forum of all places. Why would He permit that? Do the POE adherents ever consider this? The book of Job reminds us that none of us will ever be His counselor. Isaiah and Romans repeat that reminder.
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03-19-2019, 09:58 AM | #1457 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So then it seems that the way in which we become wise, knowing between good and evil is "living it". We see what happens when we make certain decisions, particularly when we disobey God's command. However, this tree of necessity requires "evil". You cannot eat this tree without disobeying God. Taken to its logical extreme it allows for Hitler, Stalin, and Nero. So, once you eat this tree you are not allowed to eat the tree of life, lest this "evil" infect God's creation. Jesus is not simply the "Life" He is also the "Truth". The reality. Our life, after tasting the tree of knowledge, is a vanity, an illusion, a vapor, a smoke. It has created a ring around the real life that cannot be penetrated. In this simulated world people have the power to kill your body but don't have the power to harm the soul. This answers why God allows this. Because this is how we can know the difference between good and evil.
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03-19-2019, 10:00 AM | #1458 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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God permitted evil in the world. Yet he he suffered and died himself to deal with it. Seems reasonable to me. |
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03-19-2019, 12:02 PM | #1459 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
As I have said before, the POE simply justifies an evil heart of unbelief.
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03-19-2019, 12:48 PM | #1460 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Perhaps what you mean is that, the POE if embraced by you, would produce a evil heart of unbelief.
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03-19-2019, 12:55 PM | #1461 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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When one invests his life "questioning the Omni characteristics of God," then others should candidly ask if that one actually wants an answer or not.
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03-19-2019, 02:18 PM | #1462 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Isn't that true for all of us? We only know what's in other heads if they tell us, and we can't even trust that.
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03-19-2019, 02:26 PM | #1463 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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And I doubt the fathers in the wilderness for 40 years even thought of the POE, or the Omni's. Hebrews doesn't address either.
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03-19-2019, 02:57 PM | #1464 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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There is no escape from having faith in something, Harold. And if you believe otherwise, well... the answer is right there. |
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03-19-2019, 05:09 PM | #1465 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Their *belief system* will one day fail them because they put their faith in someone or something that was not trustworthy. Why join them? Why would you trust fallen men, putting your faith in their failed ideas, rather than in a trustworthy God? In the end you are believing, you are just believing the wrong people.
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03-19-2019, 08:10 PM | #1466 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
No brother. It's just that I've been wrong some many times that I have no choice but to doubt even myself. I'm glad that's not been true for you.
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03-20-2019, 07:27 AM | #1467 | ||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.I agree this doesn't necessarily disprove God. Maybe we have just misunderstood God. Perhaps we should re-examine our basic assumptions about what God is.
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03-20-2019, 07:42 AM | #1468 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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When, however, we look to philosophers for wisdom, and place questions on His word, we duplicate the Garden scenario, and probe in the darkness for that which will never be found.
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03-20-2019, 07:42 AM | #1469 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But I don't believe in all sorts of things. Although I do believe that my truck will start today. It didn't yesterday -- clutch switch went out. Fortunately I was on a hill. Fixed it by jury-rigging it -- and it's better than factory ... I believe. But I believe this type of believing I'm speaking of, is not the same believing you're talking about. You want me to believe in God. I prefer experience. And you want me to believe that evil is caused by Satan running amok. I can't see such a thing. But I can see human primates ... doing what human primates were destined to do ... by a designer I can't see, or know much if anything about. Nature is not evil. It's following natural laws. As I've stated, a Lion eating my child is only having lunch. I presume that was designed by God. Humans do evil. Tho there have been human primates in the past that if you were there might turn you into lunch ; like the Lion. I don't have to believe that human primates will do evil. Just like the Lion, it doesn't depend on believing. Evil doesn't care if we believe in it or not ... or if we can understand and explain the whys and what for of it. And I'm sorry to point this out, but, Jesus dying on the cross did not put an end to evil. It was around before Jesus, and went on the same afterward. There's something else behind it ; maybe the same thing that's in the Lion. In other words, it's in our human nature. And it doesn't depend on if we believe in it or not. Evil continues either way. The privation theory of the POE just helps to ease cognitive dissonance. Tho it does seem kind of nifty, it's certainly not among the 'all sorts' that you say I believe in.
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03-20-2019, 07:52 AM | #1470 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Being hurt, or burnt, or betrayed, should prod us to put our trust in that which is safe, and proven over time to be trustworthy. Doubting your own abilities is normal. Sometimes when I look back at what I did in my late teens, I am shocked. What I trusted in was purely foolish. Today we cannot live our lives without trusting in something. And trusting God is always a wise decision.
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03-20-2019, 08:00 AM | #1471 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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With a belief such as that, it's understandable you can't believe. Especially when you read mail from DailyMail on a daily basis. The cross dealt with our debt to sin, called the curse of the law, and when believers are in Christ, they are dead to sin. Evil will not be put to an end until Jesus returns.
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03-20-2019, 08:42 AM | #1472 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Harold,
It should be pretty clear that human philosophy is never going to prove or disprove the goodness of God. So either God is good or he isn't. If he isn't, we are all screwed. If he is, then everything we see which confuses us is explainable and we can be at peace. It seems to me you can go three ways:
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03-20-2019, 09:21 AM | #1473 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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To be honest, when it comes to God, I do believe, or sympathize with, the notion that God's love is the most powerful force in the cosmos, and will eventually win over every one, including the devil. If not, then God is not love, or is limited, and John, or the author of the epistles called John, was mistaken about God being love. ... and we're in trouble ... all have sinned, says Paul. Thanks again Igzy.
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03-20-2019, 09:48 AM | #1474 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-20-2019, 09:52 AM | #1475 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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We have many production processes that involve throwing many things away into the garbage. If God created Satan for the purpose of training us and maturing us, who are you to tell the manufacturer He can't do it that way?
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03-20-2019, 09:52 AM | #1476 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-20-2019, 09:53 AM | #1477 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying believing God is good is eating from the wrong tree? If so, your brain has been taken over by Ron Kangas.
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03-20-2019, 01:36 PM | #1478 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Btw, I don't think the Satan can be blamed for the POE, any more than he can be blamed for the plight of Job.
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03-20-2019, 01:50 PM | #1479 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This one tree requires that you disobey God in order to eat it. Disobeying God is bad, but that is not the tree. God didn't create disobedience, He created man with a free will that includes the possibility of disobedience and therefore sin. The POE shows how thorny and ugly that can become. The tree of the knowledge of Good and evil contains the potential damage, just as we might contain potentially harmful chemicals, or substances. The minute you choose to disobey you are limited in several ways. You can no longer eat from the tree of life, and you immediately become mortal, with a life span of 120 years or less. This life span only refers to your flesh. Your life becomes vanity, and nothing that you do can harm the soul of others, only their mortal body.
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03-20-2019, 01:52 PM | #1480 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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So, yes, it would be absurd to give Satan credit.
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03-20-2019, 03:30 PM | #1481 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-20-2019, 03:56 PM | #1482 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That is what you were taught in the LOC, but you are ignoring the fact that Genesis says God created this tree and planted it in the midst of the garden. God does not tempt people with sin.
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03-20-2019, 05:21 PM | #1483 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Are you serious? Read what Job has written in Chapter One.
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03-20-2019, 08:21 PM | #1484 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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But often also I wonder, and even ask, "How can God love me?" I'm not worth it, or worthy of it. I live with me. I know. I really am a disgusting animal, with all kinds of stinky animal traits, and even instincts and impulses. I guess that's what Paul means by 'the law in my members.' And in my past I have gloried that in Christ I'm not that, I'm a new man. But the animal part of me is persistent, and needs and demands of me every day. It rules ... ... every human, and animal, on the earth. And it pervades our brain pan and pretty much dictates the most devoted among us. Truth is I can't trust it. In anyone. As Dylan sings in Not Dark Yet, "I ain't looking for nothin' in anyone's eyes." And I have to ask God : why do you care about little specks, on a little speck of a ball, in a speck of a solar system, that can't even be seen -- not even a visible speck of light -- if seen from just our neighbor galaxy -- among over 250 -- and more found all the time -- billion galaxies? Talk about the POE not making sense. That doesn't make sense to me. That's why I thank Him every day, for the smallest every day little things. I've seen Hubble pictures of galaxies. They're beautiful. As beautiful as anything on this earth ... like a remote field of flowers, that few people ever see ... God must appreciate that beauty, or it's just a waste of space. So God must also love this little speck that I am. I'm undeniably part of His grand cosmos ... as much as any photon, atom, or strings at the bottom of this material and corporeal world. What glorious mystery !!! And brother Igzy, even tho I'm basically a skeptic, filled with many doubts, and little certitude, I find peace in that.
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03-21-2019, 06:56 AM | #1485 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Temptation always says "Hey, you ought to do this thing!" God never says that about something he has commanded against. Just something being possible is not the temptation. The temptation is the urging to do it. So I'm not sure what you are talking about. God told us to not lust after women, but he created a lot of attractive women. Does that mean God is tempting us? No. |
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03-21-2019, 07:24 AM | #1486 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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This is what Genesis says -- the minute they eat from that tree they will die (this is a fundamental change) and they are prohibited from eating from the the tree of life (another fundamental change) and they are kicked out of the garden (another protection). Death is a protection. You can run your little experiment but you are limited, just like he put a limitation on the ocean and said you can come this far and no further. Not only does it limit the damage you can do, it also makes everything vanity (an illusion since everything we do in this age is temporary yet we are destined for eternity, it is like drawing a picture on an etch a sketch) it also protects God's creation. These people have power to kill the flesh which is a temporary illusion, but have no power over the soul which is eternal. This is just like entering a simulation. You can try out anything you want on the simulation, crash the airplane into an office building, yet afterwards you walk away. In the same way we can die in this simulation known as mortal life, but we will walk away in eternity. This is useful in discerning between good and evil, understanding the wisdom of God's choices by seeing how different choices work out. If you view the creation this way it is easy to say that all of God's creation is good, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. WL called it the "Tree of death" implying it was negative. But that is contrary to the revelation in the Bible that God's ways are deeper than ours and that He is love surpasses knowledge.
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03-21-2019, 07:32 AM | #1487 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Accepting "His word" is one thing. Interpreting it is another. That's where we differ. But, Biblical Christianity allows for diverse points of view. There are four Gospels that present Jesus from four differing sometimes seemly conflicting points of view. The brothers who decided the Biblical canon knew that and left those differences in. If the New Testament is our standard then we should accept diverse points of view even when they seem to conflict. A Christianity that demands uniformity like Witness Lee did is unscriptural. You seem to think you're too good a Christian to question God about evil. If so, you're better than Jesus. Because when he was hanging on the cross, Jesus asked “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”. [Mark 15:34] That's the problem of evil in a nutshell.
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03-21-2019, 07:36 AM | #1488 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The question is good, it leads to a deeper understanding of God and His word (even though the question mark does look a little like a snake).
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03-21-2019, 07:40 AM | #1489 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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What's interesting is that for man the temptation was to "be like God." But isn't that why God created us in his image? So we could be like him? So what's the problem? The problem is that man tried to be like God on his own, contrary to God's instructions. Closely walking with God and obeying him is the correct way to be like God. When we try to do it on our own, we might get some initial promising results, but the end is disaster. All of man's history is having some "knowledge of good and evil" and with it trying to work things out on our own. The tree of knowledge of good and evil just represents the wish to be wise independently from God. |
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03-21-2019, 07:49 AM | #1490 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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The evil temptation was from the snake, the woman saw that it would make her like God. No, the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil is designed by God to test out alternate theories. So, if Man has free will then the potential for alternate theories about the best course of action is part of the creation. That is not evil, in fact we can infer from Genesis where God says that "man has become like us" indicates that God does test out alternate theories as part of His wisdom. That is also supported by the assertion that His wisdom is too deep for us, there is a lot behind one of His decisions that we don't see and know. If we define sin at its most fundamental basis as "disobedience to God" then forbidding us to eat this tree requires that you sin in order to eat it. That doesn't make the tree the sin, it makes the disobedience to God's command the sin. I would say the Tree was very good because it protects God's creation from the POE while at the same time being a requirement for man to have a free will.
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03-21-2019, 08:37 AM | #1491 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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A few minor points. First. Man has become one of us can't be true unless 'us' can die. But then again, some believe in Deicide, the killing of a god. And so some Christians believe that God died on the cross. In that case, maybe we are as one of "us." But isn't it just plain silly that God can die? Second of all, when you say "the woman saw that it would make her like God," you're technically wrong. Genesis doesn't say that's what she saw. It says that's what the snake said. Thirdly, technically Adam didn't disobey God. He was standing right there while Eve and the snake were carrying on a conversation, and then obeyed the woman God gave him. And men have been obeying women ever since. haha. And even doing evil for them, and to get them. And according to Paul, women are the reason for the fall. In other words, if the snake was the center of the POE in the beginning, he, or she, or it, passed it on to Eve ... and like Adam, men can't resist it.
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03-21-2019, 08:59 AM | #1492 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Honestly, the thought never crossed my mind.
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03-21-2019, 09:09 AM | #1493 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I don't think you want to get me going on the book of Job.
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03-21-2019, 09:33 AM | #1494 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Sounds like you might have missed the morale of the story.
But, since you question the authenticity and veracity of every book of the Bible, you probably have already dismissed the book of Job in favor of some ancient Greek mythology.
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03-21-2019, 09:37 AM | #1495 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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Unfortunately for them, and for you, God has demanded our faith in His Son dying on the cross for us.
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03-21-2019, 10:08 AM | #1496 | |||
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Quote:
Quote:
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03-21-2019, 10:20 AM | #1497 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
That's the POE in a nutshell. God abandoned Jesus, and Job, and also abandons the problem of evil.
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03-21-2019, 10:32 AM | #1498 | |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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You get too caught up in semantics and tend to miss someone's overall meaning. Again, think of it like a woman. A beautiful woman is not a evil thing. But how we "appreciate" her might be evil. The same with knowledge of good and evil. Do you think when God created woman he created an evil temptation? Without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we still know good and evil to some degree, so it's not a black and white thing. The test in the garden was about how we approach the knowledge, how we sought to acquire it, and what we intended to do with it--not the knowledge itself. Just like problem of a woman is not in herself, but in our approach to her. |
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03-21-2019, 10:35 AM | #1499 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
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03-21-2019, 11:04 AM | #1500 |
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Re: The Problem of Evil
I know. I don't want to hurt your ears. It's a kindness.
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