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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have no issue with Christians, or Evangelicals, or Pastors being vocally active in politics, but they don't speak for me, they don't speak for Christ.

Just like Paul said, as citizens we have certain rights.

If Christians were prohibited from voting and speaking, then they would be ignored and their concerns irrelevant during an election.

But just because someone is a christians and says they support a certain candidate doesn't have anything to do with me. I disagree with Christians about many things.

Some of the posters here spent so much time in that hot-bed-radical-south-Florida-version of the LCM under Mel Porter that can't conceive of other Christians holding diverse points of view.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bahahahaha .. this coming from the most exclusive contributor on AltV's.

Cheer up bro!

I don't think you are the most exclusive.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can't you see thru this hypocrisy? Why is it so hard for you? You can't keep blaming Kentuckian Evangelicals for this mess.

Of course I see thru the hypocrisy. I'm not blind. Just as I see thru the hypocrisy of this Trump admin.

And the population of the whole state of Ky is only 4 million. So Ky is not even close to being blameable for this mess. Although, we do have a few hotspot pollution centers in the state ; one chemical company right here in town, that stinks ; and a city I grew up in, with industries, that's been sued by counties up wind for causing higher cancer rates.

These kinds of pollution matters don't care about political parties, they'll make conservatives and liberals sick alike.

I don't know why pollution of our air, water, and food, is a political matter. Both liberals and conservatives depend on them being clean and wholesome.

And yes it's irksome to hear some kale eating liberals spouting environment, environment, environment, while flying around in private jets, to preach to me about cutting greenhouse gases.

If they really practiced what they are preaching with the same zeal, then they'd be living off the gird.

But then we have ones like Wendell Berry, a good ol' Ky boy, that pretty much lives what he preaches concerning the environment.

I consider that I have a personal vested interest in the environment, in clean air, water, and food. I'm for anyone that is concerned about them. And I don't care if they identify as liberal or conservative.

I just don't think that crapping in our nest is a good idea ... whether it's liberal fecal matter, or conservative.

And I've noticed that no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room, that, it's the heat of the loins that's causing global warming ... and both conservatives and liberals are to blame for it.

Tho I do have to point out that Trump's appointment to head up Title X family planning for our nation's poor, Teresa Manning, is a contraception skeptic.

[zeek]

I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so sad to see my ultra-liberal friends here, having long chucked the truths of the Gospel along with the rest of the Recovery, only to embrace a radical Green Religion far more pernicious than the one they left. Their new religion worships Mother Earth, having replaced that of Father God, and has all the same trappings of LC exclusivity in the name of "science," their new holy "bible."

Yup one good thing about the LC is you can't call us liberals. Fundamentalism all the way! I'm so touched you would make a positive comment about the LC it's almost making me want to invite you for a potluck dinner!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

I thought I made that plain by not including voting in the politicking. And I'm not just speaking of one evangelical like Falwell. Franklin Graham, and many other evangelicals have been pitching Trump.

In fact, you are the only evangelical I know that don't support Trump. Here in Ky I'm surrounded by evangelical Trump supporters.

ZNP ain't evangelical. He believe in EVILution. Kidding.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.

Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts. Don't you follow the prophecies on charisma magazine? Seriously, Trump does pray. So he's doing something right. He prayed for the Apprentice TV ratings. Politics, it's just a game. President is just a job that has to be filled by someone. Who that someone is doesn't change things too much. The debt clock is still ticking. NK still wants to blow up Washington, and Assange is still in London. In these moments it's good to read about the Universality and Centrality of Christ, by W. Lee. And remember the all-inclusive processed and consummated Triune God is in control.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.

I look at it differently. I figure the best thing that could possibly have happened to Clinton was to run against Trump. If she can't beat that guy then she should not be president. If you told me she was going to run against Trump and to put a cherry on top he would insult Gold Star parents coming out of the convention and just to make sure there is no way you could lose the Billy Bush tape would also be released. If she were honest she would realize she was given a gift in running against trump, they put whipped cream on that gift with his insults of various war heroes and they put a cherry on top with his very clear admittance of sexual misconduct and deviant behavior.

But instead she want to blame her "enemies". She is her biggest enemy.

Comey had no affect on me and Putin didn't either. Putting classified emails on her private server to get around freedom of information, and using her position at the State department to enrich her self through her foundation. Those are the two reasons I would not, under any circumstances vote for her.

To me this last election was like going to a restaurant during a blackout and they say "look, this chicken has been out for a few days and smells bad" the other choice is this cole slaw made with mayo that has also been out for a few days and smells bad. Which one do you want?

I chose to fast.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNP ain't evangelical. He believe in EVILution. Kidding.

You better take that back! I believe in Jesus.

Evolution is simply another example of clueless scientists stealing from the Bible and trying to get credit for it because they lack any creativity. Darwin's crime is not blasphemy, in fact I wouldn't even blame him for plagiarism. His crime is not giving credit to the Bible for his ideas.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts. Don't you follow the prophecies on charisma magazine? Seriously, Trump does pray. So he's doing something right. He prayed for the Apprentice TV ratings. Politics, it's just a game. President is just a job that has to be filled by someone. Who that someone is doesn't change things too much. The debt clock is still ticking. NK still wants to blow up Washington, and Assange is still in London. In these moments it's good to read about the Universality and Centrality of Christ, by W. Lee. And remember the all-inclusive processed and consummated Triune God is in control.

Yeah Zeek, read "the all inclusive processed and consummated Triune God" by WL and chill out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I look at it differently. I figure the best thing that could possibly have happened to Clinton was to run against Trump. If she can't beat that guy then she should not be president. If you told me she was going to run against Trump and to put a cherry on top he would insult Gold Star parents coming out of the convention and just to make sure there is no way you could lose the Billy Bush tape would also be released. If she were honest she would realize she was given a gift in running against trump, they put whipped cream on that gift with his insults of various war heroes and they put a cherry on top with his very clear admittance of sexual misconduct and deviant behavior.

But instead she want to blame her "enemies". She is her biggest enemy.

Comey had no affect on me and Putin didn't either. Putting classified emails on her private server to get around freedom of information, and using her position at the State department to enrich her self through her foundation. Those are the two reasons I would not, under any circumstances vote for her.

To me this last election was like going to a restaurant during a blackout and they say "look, this chicken has been out for a few days and smells bad" the other choice is this cole slaw made with mayo that has also been out for a few days and smells bad. Which one do you want?

I chose to fast.

I "fasted" during the primary, but that was also for another reason. But not against Hillary. She was far too scary.

I agree Trump did and said stupid things. Ole zeek still has no clue why Trump won and Hillary lost. Talk about stupid -- when Trump said McCain was not a war hero because he prefers soldiers who did not get caught. What? McCain was a pilot shot down, his dad was a distinguished admiral, and he was tortured in prison for years. Now I don't really care for all McCain's decisions -- like dumping his wife after coming home -- and his policies -- like not opposing abortion -- but who would dare say he was not a hero?

Then Trump never learned a thing, and went after that gold star Muslim family that lost their son in the war. Talk about stupid! Perhaps Bannon and Conway talked some sense into him.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I "fasted" during the primary, but that was also for another reason. But not against Hillary. She was far too scary.

I agree Trump did and said stupid things. Ole zeek still has no clue why Trump won and Hillary lost. Talk about stupid -- when Trump said McCain was not a war hero because he prefers soldiers who did not get caught. What? McCain was a pilot shot down, his dad was a distinguished admiral, and he was tortured in prison for years. Now I don't really care for all McCain's decisions -- like dumping his wife after coming home -- and his policies -- like not opposing abortion -- but who would dare say he was not a hero?

Then Trump never learned a thing, and went after that gold star Muslim family that lost their son in the war. Talk about stupid! Perhaps Bannon and Conway talked some sense into him.

People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.

That's just your speculation.

I have prolly heard a dozen excuses for Hillary, none of which owned up to her being crooked, incompetent, and connected with too many dead people.

Regardless of Bernie's popularity, he still ran as a socialist against basically a populist outsider. After 8 years of Obama, the country was moving right, as evidenced by Republican gains since 2010.

Since the Republican congress can't work together, watch for the country to move left again in 2018.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.

Not just that. As much as he comes across as an idiot, he also comes across as "frank", to the point.

The reason the Billy Bush thing didn't destroy him is that he doesn't obfuscate the way politicians do. The coverup is often bigger than the crime. There is no cover up, he simply refuses to give us his tax return.

Also, he comes across as someone who might be able to bring jobs back.

Remember, this was the least popular president ever, received 3 million votes less than the loser. This was not a Ronald Reagan victory. There is no indication that those who voted for him did so for any other reason than that they hoped he might be better.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Remember, this was the least popular president ever, received 3 million votes less than the loser.

Regarding popularity, can we ever believe the polls again?

Regarding votes, that's like the Super Bowl loser declaring victory because their team amassed more yards -- a totally different game with a totally different strategy.

How do we know whether 3 million solid Blue State Republicans just stayed home because their votes were meaningless? My brother lives in Sacramento, CA and feels voting there has basically become a waste of time for conservatives.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's just your speculation.

No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.

I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.

Is that like anger management?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Regarding popularity, can we ever believe the polls again?

Regarding votes, that's like the Super Bowl loser declaring victory because their team amassed more yards -- a totally different game with a totally different strategy.

How do we know whether 3 million solid Blue State Republicans just stayed home because their votes were meaningless? My brother lives in Sacramento, CA and feels voting there has basically become a waste of time for conservatives.

There is no doubt that one of the by products of the Electoral college is that you have "blue states" and "red states" and this reduces the number of voters. If you know how the state is going to vote then your vote is meaningless.

The candidates know this as well and only campaign in swing states. Candidates deemphasize 40 states.

Another very negative impact of this are policies that do not make sense, but one or two states like them, hence they are untouchable.

So then it is anti democratic and promotes policies that are not advantageous for the majority.

Ultimately this results in a feeling of disenfranchisement. People who aren't involved in the process and don't feel like this government represents them.

A step halfway towards full democracy is to only award 100% of electoral votes if the person wins by 10% or more. Less than that you divide the electoral votes proportionally.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.

I come here to learn patience. Also this forces me to pray for wisdom, another benefit of this forum.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

OK -- simple logical progression.

1. I believe that God is omniscient. Standard belief for most fundamental Christians though I suppose it is up for interpretation exactly what that means to each individual.

2. I also feel, based on the evidence I have seen, that pollution from the industrial revolution is going to result in . . . .

blah blah blah . . . .

In other words, you want to take a scenario that you find compelling and work hard to string a number of passages together and force them to be a unit that makes your case.

They call that eisegesis, "an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text."

Consistent with so many other rabbit trails you have gallivanted along.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts.

Why do we think that Trump is God's chosen? Because God is sovereign?

If so, they does that mean that God thought 8 years of Obama was a good thing? If so then we have to rethink the prior 8 years.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.

Is that like anger management?

I think you have something in your eye. Would you like me to remove it? Where did I put that icepick?

Right, arrogance management. It's an Alt Views thing.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I come here to learn patience. Also this forces me to pray for wisdom, another benefit of this forum.

Alt Views--it's transformational!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is no doubt that one of the by products of the Electoral college is that you have "blue states" and "red states" and this reduces the number of voters. If you know how the state is going to vote then your vote is meaningless.

The candidates know this as well and only campaign in swing states. Candidates deemphasize 40 states.

Another very negative impact of this are policies that do not make sense, but one or two states like them, hence they are untouchable.

So then it is anti democratic and promotes policies that are not advantageous for the majority.

Ultimately this results in a feeling of disenfranchisement. People who aren't involved in the process and don't feel like this government represents them.

A step halfway towards full democracy is to only award 100% of electoral votes if the person wins by 10% or more. Less than that you divide the electoral votes proportionally.

The electoral college was a compromise. The original plan was to have our reps pick a Prez. You would have really hated that program. Remember our history -- we were initially a collection of STATES joined for a common purpose. The US Gov't was never supposed to be big, rather a protection of national defense. The Founders would be shocked at the outcome we now have.

The USA is not a democracy. It is a republic of laws. Have you forgotten? The smaller states will NEVER give up the electoral college system. Like it or not, it's here to stay.

Another crazy part of the election process is the power given to Iowa. It all but guarantees that we'll be burning corn in our engines. Totally stupid idea! There is nothing "renewable" about corn ethanol. Take away the petrochemical fertilizers and Monsanto's GMO corn, and nothing else could grow in Iowa.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You better take that back! I believe in Jesus.

Evolution is simply another example of clueless scientists stealing from the Bible and trying to get credit for it because they lack any creativity. Darwin's crime is not blasphemy, in fact I wouldn't even blame him for plagiarism. His crime is not giving credit to the Bible for his ideas.

It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I think you have something in your eye. Would you like me to remove it? Where did I put that icepick?

Right, arrogance management. It's an Alt Views thing.

It was you who brought up "arrogance therapy" not me. Perhaps you happened to look in the mirror, didn't like what you saw, and then smashed it with that ice pick!

And, btw, who has icepicks in Florida? Aren't you the one who preaches hellfire and global warming?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why do we think that Trump is God's chosen? Because God is sovereign?

If so, they does that mean that God thought 8 years of Obama was a good thing? If so then we have to rethink the prior 8 years.

God is good and God is good all the time. So yes. 8 years of Obama was good. Regardless of who is in power, we have to pray for the leaders. Do we have to like them or agree with everything they do. No.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yup one good thing about the LC is you can't call us liberals. Fundamentalism all the way! I'm so touched you would make a positive comment about the LC it's almost making me want to invite you for a potluck dinner!

Don't you mean "Love Feast?" Or is it called potluck now?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.

I don't know about zeek. But screw arrogance therapy. I'M NOT ARROGANT !!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump is God's chosen

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know about zeek. But screw arrogance therapy. I'M NOT ARROGANT !!!

zeek dealing in arrogance therapy, and Assange intelligence porn.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.

You'll just have to wait and see.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.

Yes, only around 85% of evangelicals supported Trump. So 15% didn't. Bro ZNP might be in the 15%. But then, it sounds like even he voted for Trump.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Don't you mean "Love Feast?" Or is it called potluck now?

Either. But you really do have to watch those crab cakes.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.

Well, America probably has been Babylon the Great for some time now. The political arm of the Roman Empire.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, only around 85% of evangelicals supported Trump. So 15% didn't. Bro ZNP might be in the 15%. But then, it sounds like even he voted for Trump.

I have already stated plainly that I did not vote for president, I opted to not vote. I have also repeated this. If 20 million others who didn't like the person they voted for did that as well it would have forced a bigger political movement than what we are seeing now.

So how could it possibly sound like "he voted for Trump"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have already stated plainly that I did not vote for president, I opted to not vote. I have also repeated this. If 20 million others who didn't like the person they voted for did that as well it would have forced a bigger political movement than what we are seeing now.

So how could it possibly sound like "he voted for Trump"?

Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.

A good friend of mine wrote in "John Kasich" for President. Coming from a crucial swing state, his vote, in effect, helped Hillary, even though he hated to see her win.

When it comes to voting, we should not vote with their hearts, rather with our minds.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.

Yes, I completely disagree with those who say you are obligated to vote. If we had only had 20 million people vote in the last election (the amount that probably felt very strongly for one or the other candidate) the entire process would have been invalidated. It would have been pointless to claim who got the most votes or who got the most electoral college votes. It would be like a Superbowl that no one watched or turned on. That makes a very loud statement of disapproval of the entire system.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A good friend of mine wrote in "John Kasich" for President. Coming from a crucial swing state, his vote, in effect, helped Hillary, even though he hated to see her win.

When it comes to voting, we should not vote with their hearts, rather with our minds.

In my mind I did not want either candidate to claim a "mandate".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In my mind I did not want either candidate to claim a "mandate".

Regardless of who wins, a "mandate" will be claimed, even if it's by a hanging chad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, I completely disagree with those who say you are obligated to vote. If we had only had 20 million people vote in the last election (the amount that probably felt very strongly for one or the other candidate) the entire process would have been invalidated. It would have been pointless to claim who got the most votes or who got the most electoral college votes. It would be like a Superbowl that no one watched or turned on. That makes a very loud statement of disapproval of the entire system.

I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Regardless of who wins, a "mandate" will be claimed, even if it's by a hanging chad.

If you have 200 million registered voters, and 100 million voted in the last election and 40 million vote in this election you can claim whatever you want, every politician knows you don't have a mandate and will act accordingly.

When Reagan won by an overwhelming majority everyone feared his mandate. No one fears Trump's "mandate".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.

There were no "good guys". It was guaranteed that the "bad guys" were going to win, I just wanted that to be an empty victory.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God is good and God is good all the time. So yes. 8 years of Obama was good. Regardless of who is in power, we have to pray for the leaders. Do we have to like them or agree with everything they do. No.

Finally something that we can at least partly agree on.

We get what we get and we are charged to pray for all of them.

What we may not agree on is whether God is specifically deciding who will be president (at least in all cases). And if I am right on this (that part of God's sovereignty is exercised in restraint as man exercises his free will) and he might only sometimes direct things, then I cannot say that which ones are which and decide that God would vote Republican, or Democrat. It is clear that if he is actively sovereign in all of it that God does not simply "vote Republican" because we have gotten some that are very "not Republican." And I am not sure what to say about the present Republican (if he really is one).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.

Hey, I am very evangelical and don't support Trump (in the sense that I wish he didn't get his way too much). And I don't simply believe in a 7-day creation (or actually 6-day), and am not that enamored with many of the modern apologists, including Mr. Ham.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Finally something that we can at least partly agree on.

We get what we get and we are charged to pray for all of them.

What we may not agree on is whether God is specifically deciding who will be president (at least in all cases). And if I am right on this (that part of God's sovereignty is exercised in restraint as man exercises his free will) and he might only sometimes direct things, then I cannot say that which ones are which and decide that God would vote Republican, or Democrat. It is clear that if he is actively sovereign in all of it that God does not simply "vote Republican" because we have gotten some that are very "not Republican." And I am not sure what to say about the present Republican (if he really is one).

I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.

[OBW]

Heard a podcast yesterday that had ideas for improving the election outcomes.

Debates with no one in the room so that audience applause or boos do not affect the TV audience more than the things said.

Possibly requiring that everyone who can vote be required to show up at the polls even if they don't want to vote. (Australia actually does this.)

A lot of others.

One of the things that was pointed to as the most problematic in the U.S. is that the focus during campaigns is so much on what are truly marginal but hot-button issues and the result has been the polarization of the parties. The vast middle-ground is not even thought about. They have many normal issues that are worthy of discussion, but since there is no evidence that they are even listened to, and they are not necessarily in sync with the extremes (in terms of the hot-button issues), they just stay home. And we get gridlock in a way that hasn't been seen since the late 1800s.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.

Jesus is Lord. The real leadership is in place. The NT does not in any way, shape or form suggest that there is a path for salvation apart from Him and that includes climate change legislation, etc. Because of that WN erroneously teaches that Christians should not be involved in the political process (Post #1).

I see this differently. Apart from the Lord we can do nothing. But if Jesus is one with you then I see no reason why you can't "preach the good news" to the issues. After all the Lord gave us talents to invest and we have been told to go out into the entire world, surely that includes the political arena as well, and preach the gospel. And, He promised to be with us to the end of days.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.

I agree bro Ohio. Like the pubbies blocking Obama's supreme court appointee, and then ramming down our throats Gorsuch. They didn't play fair. Or is it okay when pubbies don't play fair?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.

Who the president is has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

And if all we have is prayer we're in trouble.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I agree bro Ohio. Like the pubbies blocking Obama's supreme court appointee, and then ramming down our throats Gorsuch. They didn't play fair. Or is it okay when pubbies don't play fair?

Gorsuch is benign. Never hurt a soul. You won't even get a sore throat. Just drink some green tea and get some rest. You'll feel fine in the morning.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Who the president is has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

And if all we have is prayer we're in trouble.

Emperor Constantine would disagree with you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Jesus is Lord. The real leadership is in place. The NT does not in any way, shape or form suggest that there is a path for salvation apart from Him and that includes climate change legislation, etc. Because of that WN erroneously teaches that Christians should not be involved in the political process (Post #1).

I see this differently. Apart from the Lord we can do nothing. But if Jesus is one with you then I see no reason why you can't "preach the good news" to the issues. After all the Lord gave us talents to invest and we have been told to go out into the entire world, surely that includes the political arena as well, and preach the gospel. And, He promised to be with us to the end of days.

That's about involvement. I'm talking about prayer. Whatever decisions Trump makes affects where, when, and how the gospel is spread around the world. Christianity flourished under Constantine. Trump is more powerful than Constantine. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we are talking about different aspects.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

Heard a podcast yesterday that had ideas for improving the election outcomes.

Debates with no one in the room so that audience applause or boos do not affect the TV audience more than the things said.

Possibly requiring that everyone who can vote be required to show up at the polls even if they don't want to vote. (Australia actually does this.)

A lot of others.

One of the things that was pointed to as the most problematic in the U.S. is that the focus during campaigns is so much on what are truly marginal but hot-button issues and the result has been the polarization of the parties. The vast middle-ground is not even thought about. They have many normal issues that are worthy of discussion, but since there is no evidence that they are even listened to, and they are not necessarily in sync with the extremes (in terms of the hot-button issues), they just stay home. And we get gridlock in a way that hasn't been seen since the late 1800s.

The bipolar party system has split in such a way that there is little middle ground. This is the system that gave us Clinton and Trump as the only realistic options for POTUS in 2016. That fact alone should be enough to warrant radical rethinking and reform of the system.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The bipolar party system has split in such a way that there is little middle ground. This is the system that gave us Clinton and Trump as the only realistic options for POTUS in 2016. That fact alone should be enough to warrant radical rethinking and reform of the system.

Could have been worse. The establishment wanted to give us Bush and Clinton in 2016.

How could you ever vote for another Democrat after you watched what the DNC did to you and Bernie?

Just recently the DNC chair Perez just excluded me and every other Pro-Life from his party. I can't ever vote for another Democrat. . .

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's about involvement. I'm talking about prayer. Whatever decisions Trump makes affects where, when, and how the gospel is spread around the world. Christianity flourished under Constantine. Trump is more powerful than Constantine. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we are talking about different aspects.

"Christianity flourished under Constantine"? I assume you are referring to man made religion and not the Body of Christ.

"Trump is more powerful than Constantine" -- How? How is someone in a government with the checks and balances of our constitution and the scrutiny of our press, in a world where we understand "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" to be our right, how is he more powerful than Constantine? Constantine was an emperor of the only superpower, Trump has to deal with other powers like China, Russia, Japan, Europe, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could have been worse. The establishment wanted to give us Bush and Clinton in 2016.

I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.

I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.

[zeek]

A reasonable voice:"So, it is up to the public to quarantine this presidency by insistently communicating to its elected representatives a steady, rational fear of this man whose combination of impulsivity and credulity render him uniquely unfit to take the nation into a military conflict." http://www.grandforksherald.com/opin...w-what-it-know

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.

A third Bush presidency? Dynasty? Royalty?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.

The left, with Schumer, Pelosi, and the Press, will demonize ANY Republican, so we have no idea what a moderate would look like.

I thought Dubya, McCain, and Romney were fairly moderate.

I agree with you that Governors are far better suited for the task, except for pseudo-Christian Jimmy Carter. The problem, however, is that none of them would be willing to go thru what Trump is enduring in order to shake up Washington.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

A reasonable voice:"So, it is up to the public to quarantine this presidency by insistently communicating to its elected representatives a steady, rational fear of this man whose combination of impulsivity and credulity render him uniquely unfit to take the nation into a military conflict." http://www.grandforksherald.com/opin...w-what-it-know

The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

A third Bush presidency? Dynasty? Royalty?

No more Bush's.

Hey ZNP, what you think of "common core?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.

Trump seems, at heart, to be motivated, not by dictator power, but the reversal of Obama's policies, plain and simple. And, I suppose, Obama asked for it, by going after him back on that WHCDinner in 2011.

Trump is not the kind of person that takes to open humiliation by the Obama bully pulpit in front of hundreds.

Dictator? Now we find out that Obama Admin. was spying on Rand Paul too! Just the tip of the iceberg. Had we a decent FBI director, these hoodlums would all be in jail.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.

A song for you ZNP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9Vzb6R_58

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No more Bush's.

Hey ZNP, what you think of "common core?"

It has had a negligible effect on the science curriculum.

Originally we had to prepare our students to write argumentative essays and the outcome was 20% of the rating for every teacher. I felt that being able to write an argumentative essay was a worthy goal but that it was unreasonable to rate every teacher on this outcome. The union agreed and starting this year the law was changed in NY. This year 50% of my rating is based on the State Regents exam at the end of the year in my subject area. I am quite happy about that as my rating on the exam will very likely be a full score (20/20) which is highly effective. Last year we had 3 teachers in my school get 18/20.

However we still have the argumentative essay as a rating for teachers who are not teaching a class that results in a State exam.

As for common core Algebra I don't know enough to say what I think.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.

Huh?

Trump is basically leading the "silent majority?"

The opposition party controls the press.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh?

Trump is basically leading the "silent majority?"

The opposition party controls the press.

Look at the multitude of protests organized via Facebook, twitter, and other forms of social media.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Look at the multitude of protests organized via Facebook, twitter, and other forms of social media.

I'm looking at them -- check out UC Berkeley, that bastion of free speech, using social media to organize militant protests.

Be honest here -- far more young Blue State millennial liberals are on social media than Red State conservatives. Take me for example, and many of my friends too, I have no presence on social media.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Christianity flourished under Constantine"? I assume you are referring to man made religion and not the Body of Christ.

Both I guess.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Trump is more powerful than Constantine" -- How? How is someone in a government with the checks and balances of our constitution and the scrutiny of our press, in a world where we understand "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" to be our right, how is he more powerful than Constantine? Constantine was an emperor of the only superpower, Trump has to deal with other powers like China, Russia, Japan, Europe, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.

Territory wise, the USA is larger than the Roman Empire. Population too. Militarily, the USA is more powerful than the ancient Roman Empire. Financially, USA is richer than the ancient Roman Empire.

Roman military spending was 2.5% of the empire's GDP. USA is what now, 3-4%?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Both I guess.



Territory wise, the USA is larger than the Roman Empire. Population too. Militarily, the USA is more powerful than the ancient Roman Empire. Financially, USA is richer than the ancient Roman Empire.

Roman military spending was 2.5% of the empire's GDP. USA is what now, 3-4%?

Trump does not "rule" over the territory of the US as Constantine did. He is not an emperor. He is not a Caesar. The fact that the US is more powerful than the ancient Roman empire is obvious to all. That was not your statement.

I would like to think that our President does not have the power of the ancient emperors because of our constitution. Watergate resulting in Nixon's resignation is the evidence of this. It would be laughable to think such a scandal would bring down a Caesar.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Trump does not "rule" over the territory of the US as Constantine did. He is not an emperor. He is not a Caesar. The fact that the US is more powerful than the ancient Roman empire is obvious to all. That was not your statement.

I would like to think that our President does not have the power of the ancient emperors because of our constitution. Watergate resulting in Nixon's resignation is the evidence of this. It would be laughable to think such a scandal would bring down a Caesar.

Militarily he has more power than Constantine. The constitution does not apply to other countries, he could attack Syria at will.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Militarily he has more power than Constantine. The constitution does not apply to other countries, he could attack Syria at will.

By your standard, Kim in NK has more power and influence than Constantine, Caesar, Hitler, Mao, etc.

[awareness]

This just in.

Jared Kushner is offering in Beijing and Shanghai that if Chinese investors invest $500,000 in his Kushner Jersey real estate business they can get a residency card. Can we say Emoluments Clause?

One more piece of evidence for Los Angeles to push for a Trump impeachment.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By your standard, Kim in NK has more power and influence than Constantine, Caesar, Hitler, Mao, etc.

He has a 1 million strong standing army, which is why the USA is afraid of him. So yes, he's right up there.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

He has a 1 million strong standing army, which is why the USA is afraid of him. So yes, he's right up there.

Well I guess this defines your "Trump is more powerful than Constantine" comment. If you have nuclear bomb and might commit suicide similar to Samson, then that makes you powerful in Evangelical's definition.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well I guess this defines your "Trump is more powerful than Constantine" comment. If you have nuclear bomb and might commit suicide similar to Samson, then that makes you powerful in Evangelical's definition.

What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.

Matthew 18 explains who is the greatest in the kingdom, I would defer to that chapter.

Being able to kill does not make you powerful, being able to raise you from the dead, that is real power.

Being able to stir up a war does not make you powerful, being able to make peace and reconcile the warring parties, that is true power.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.

And this is worse than Obama's use of the latest drones?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Being able to kill does not make you powerful

For all the nonsense in Star Wars, Yoda got something right:

"War not make one great. "

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Matthew 18 explains who is the greatest in the kingdom, I would defer to that chapter.

Being able to kill does not make you powerful, being able to raise you from the dead, that is real power.

Being able to stir up a war does not make you powerful, being able to make peace and reconcile the warring parties, that is true power.

Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.

There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.

If the USA were not a strong country, fighting for the freedoms of others around the world, then you and your country would have no freedoms whatsoever. Ever think of that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.

Your post here is way more common sense than EvanGelly can handle in one sitting.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the USA were not a strong country, fighting for the freedoms of others around the world, then you and your country would have no freedoms whatsoever. Ever think of that?

I agree and I note you define a "strong country" as one that has a powerful military, as I do.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.

I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.

Now they’re his. When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.b9dba136a1b0


Trump does not need approval to fire Nukes. No checks and balances stopped Trump firing 59 cruise missiles into Syria, or stopping Obama firing missiles from UAVs in other sovereign countries. The President has to go to Congress only if there is a declaration of war. It's rare for a President to go to Congress before military action is taken.

Trump is more powerful than Constantine because Constantine could only dream of having the power to send 59 cruise missiles or a nuke into another country at will while having dinner with a Chinese president, all without Congressional, or even UN approval.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your post here is way more common sense than EvanGelly can handle in one sitting.

Well this "non-American" is explaining to you how things really work in your own country. Embarrassing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

For all the nonsense in Star Wars, Yoda got something right:

"War not make one great. "

Yoda right something got. But if Trump fails to live up to his hype about being great he's gonna need a war to regain his greatness. So to him war will make one great ... him. And that's the most important thing to Trump. Look for WWIII. It's necessary to make Trump great.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.

Your boy Obama had the same "power," yet I never heard you express any concerns.

Putin has even more "power" in his arsenal (remember that the US unilaterally disarmed during the last 8 years) and you kept your mouth silent. Why is that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well this "non-American" is explaining to you how things really work in your own country. Embarrassing.

You liberals will never get it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yoda right something got. But if Trump fails to live up to his hype about being great he's gonna need a war to regain his greatness. So to him war will make one great ... him. And that's the most important thing to Trump. Look for WWIII. It's necessary to make Trump great.

So is that what made FDR so great?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your boy Obama had the same "power," yet I never heard you express any concerns.

Putin has even more "power" in his arsenal (remember that the US unilaterally disarmed during the last 8 years) and you kept your mouth silent. Why is that?

Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.

Now they’re his. When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.b9dba136a1b0


Trump does not need approval to fire Nukes. No checks and balances stopped Trump firing 59 cruise missiles into Syria, or stopping Obama firing missiles from UAVs in other sovereign countries. The President has to go to Congress only if there is a declaration of war. It's rare for a President to go to Congress before military action is taken.

Trump is more powerful than Constantine because Constantine could only dream of having the power to send 59 cruise missiles or a nuke into another country at will while having dinner with a Chinese president, all without Congressional, or even UN approval.

Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

When asked if he approved of the missile strike it was very clear from his response that he had merely given the military approval to do what was necessary. He didn't plan the strike, give the order for the strike, or fire the missiles. Yes, technically he could have, but there are many layers in our government, and as you can see our news reports to the entire world everything that happens, unlike ancient Rome.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.

In the US, unlike ancient Rome, refusing an order from the President is not seen as treasonous (ask Sally Yates), especially a bogus order to start a nuclear war. In the past people were trained to obey authority, in our country ever since JFK assassination we have been trained more and more to question and be suspicious of authority.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So is that what made FDR so great?

Was FDR claiming to make everything great?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.

What? Invading the Ukraine was not provocative?

Enabling N. Korea to become a nuclear power is fine?

This is idiotic.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Was FDR claiming to make everything great?

Trump -- make america great again

FDR -- Happy days are here again

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.

Provoking?

He (and Iran too with our $billions) has been developing nukes and ballistic missiles while Obama played golf with rock stars and movie stars.

Read this article before you blame Trump -- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton Are Responsible for North Korea’s Nukes

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What? Invading the Ukraine was not provocative?

Enabling N. Korea to become a nuclear power is fine?

This is idiotic.

That defines liberal progressive thinking.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.

It's just incredible to see how the liberal media makes their heads explode with fear. They have taken fearmongering into the 21st century. We got liberals on this forum that scoff at the idea of a future Armageddon, based on biblical prophecy, and now all of a sudden they have all become "believers", claiming Trump will start WWIII.

When it comes to decisions, Trump is a careful and strategic planner. How else does one become so successful? He is a real patriot first, and not a One World Order guy like our last 4 presidents. Yet he is portrayed by the Press as flaky, impulsive, and whimsical as Kim in NK.

It's just amazing to me to see how little negative press that George Soros gets. Here is a wealthy genius hell-bent on taking down all western democracies. The guy is famous for destroying the British pound and the Bank of England. He is funding every liberal activist group out there.

If liberals had a brain, they would know who to fear and who not to fear. Here read this -- Top 10 Reasons George Soros Is Dangerous

9. Currency manipulation: A large part of Soros’ multibillion-dollar fortune has come from manipulating currencies. During the 1997 Asian financial crisis, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad accused him of bringing down the nation’s currency through his trading activities, and in Thailand he was called an “economic war criminal.” Known as “The Man who Broke the Bank of England,” Soros initiated a British financial crisis by dumping 10 billion sterling, forcing the devaluation of the currency and gaining a billion-dollar profit.

10. Delusions: Soros has repeatedly said that he sees himself as a messianic figure. Who but a megalomaniac would make these comments? “I admit that I have always harbored an exaggerated view of my self-importance—to put it bluntly, I fancied myself as some kind of god” or “I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise I might end up in the loony bin.” If only the loony bin were an option. As it is, one of the wealthiest men in the world is using his billions to impose a radical agenda on America.

[ZNPaaneah]

It seems this thread has become too tame, so let's include a discussion on the recent firing of Comey.

I find it interesting that after being advised that Flynn has been compromised by the Russians Trump fires the woman who told him this a few days later, but takes close to a month to fire Flynn.

Now compare that to firing Comey the same day it comes out in the testimony that he might have misspoke about the email incident. On the surface it seems like a reasonable mistake, thousands of emails were forwarded, it may have seemed from his original testimony that this was done manually, but the issue is that it was done. Hard to know who was at fault for this misunderstanding or even how serious it is, if it is even serious. But to instantly fire him suggests to me this is merely a contrived excuse and not the real reason.

I have to wonder if anyone who touches this question of collusion between Russia and the Trump administration does so knowing that they will be terminated at the first opportunity.

On the other hand if it really is the reason then wow, it really shows how upset Trump is that he won the election.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It seems this thread has become too tame, so let's include a discussion on the recent firing of Comey.

I find it interesting that after being advised that Flynn has been compromised by the Russians Trump fires the woman who told him this a few days later, but takes close to a month to fire Flynn.

Now compare that to firing Comey the same day it comes out in the testimony that he might have misspoke about the email incident. On the surface it seems like a reasonable mistake, thousands of emails were forwarded, it may have seemed from his original testimony that this was done manually, but the issue is that it was done. Hard to know who was at fault for this misunderstanding or even how serious it is, if it is even serious. But to instantly fire him suggests to me this is merely a contrived excuse and not the real reason.

I have to wonder if anyone who touches this question of collusion between Russia and the Trump administration does so knowing that they will be terminated at the first opportunity.

On the other hand if it really is the reason then wow, it really shows how upset Trump is that he won the election.

Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.

The appearance is that Trump fired Sally Yates, Flynn and Comey because of this investigation and the potential to drag him down.

It must be a nice world these billionaires live in where they get to appoint the person who is going to oversee the investigation of them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.

Director Comey should have been fired last year. His own agency lost confidence in him. His actions violated his authority.

Drain the swamp!

Btw, have you forgotten all the calls for his resignation by the Democrats?

I guess this means that Trump has finally succumbed to Democratic pressure.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

When asked if he approved of the missile strike it was very clear from his response that he had merely given the military approval to do what was necessary. He didn't plan the strike, give the order for the strike, or fire the missiles. Yes, technically he could have, but there are many layers in our government, and as you can see our news reports to the entire world everything that happens, unlike ancient Rome.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.

In the US, unlike ancient Rome, refusing an order from the President is not seen as treasonous (ask Sally Yates), especially a bogus order to start a nuclear war. In the past people were trained to obey authority, in our country ever since JFK assassination we have been trained more and more to question and be suspicious of authority.

Of course the president did not fire the missiles himself. What a silly thing to say. He gives the orders. Same with any leader, they give orders, others follow. But what if that person firing the missile was a Trump supporter and believed everything Trump said? Your argument is shot to pieces.

And why did Trump's presidency get people worried about his new found power?

see

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/s...odes.html?_r=2


Some scholars (and Wikipedia entries) insist that a system of checks and balances puts the secretary of defense in the decision loop. But Bruce G. Blair, a research scholar at Princeton University who as an Air Force officer would have launched a nuclear missile if an order had come from the president, said that rule applied in the silos but not at the top of the command chain.

“There’s nothing the secretary of defense can do,” Dr. Blair, who wrote a book on nuclear command and control, said in an interview. “He has no authority to refuse or disobey that order.”



Your argument fails because ancient Rome also had checks and balances in their power structure.

https://www.reference.com/history/ch...f9ac785247b74a

The Roman Republic had several items in place to keep any one part of the government from having all the power, including a group of men called tribunes who could veto select items and completely stop acts of administration, limited terms and specific requirements for members in order to move up in the government. Many governments in the modern world are based, at least in part, on the model of the Roman Republic, including the United States.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule
"The two-man rule only applies in the missile silos and submarines; there is no check on the president's sole authority to order a nuclear launch"

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Provoking?

He (and Iran too with our $billions) has been developing nukes and ballistic missiles while Obama played golf with rock stars and movie stars.

Read this article before you blame Trump -- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton Are Responsible for North Korea’s Nukes

Yes because America bombed their poor country to pieces during the Korean War.

You need to read this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.79cb01fac346

like most Americans, educate yourself about your own country.

Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Director Comey should have been fired last year. His own agency lost confidence in him. His actions violated his authority.

Drain the swamp!

Btw, have you forgotten all the calls for his resignation by the Democrats?

I guess this means that Trump has finally succumbed to Democratic pressure.

The firing of Comey is transparently in service of stopping his investigation of Trump's collusion with Russia. Trump must have received intelligence to the effect that Comey was going to bring him down or he would not have taken this desperate step. Do you really think Comey will go away quietly? The Trump administration merely hopes to discredit him before he shares what he has turned up in his investigation of Trump's​ campaign.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your argument fails because ancient Rome also had checks and balances in their power structure.

https://www.reference.com/history/ch...f9ac785247b74a

The Roman Republic had several items in place to keep any one part of the government from having all the power, including a group of men called tribunes who could veto select items and completely stop acts of administration, limited terms and specific requirements for members in order to move up in the government. Many governments in the modern world are based, at least in part, on the model of the Roman Republic, including the United States.

Are you kidding? The Roman Republic ended when the Roman Empire was established with the first emperor.

Please stop trying to educate us, it is painful.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The firing of Comey is transparently in service of stopping his investigation of Trump's collusion with Russia. Trump must have received intelligence to the effect that Comey was going to bring him down or he would not have taken this desperate step. Do you really think Comey will go away quietly? The Trump administration merely hopes to discredit him before he shares what he has turned up in his investigation of Trump's​ campaign.

Really? I think what they hope to do is appoint the person in charge of the investigation, a person that would be beholden to him, perhaps compromised. Maybe Putin could make some suggestions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes because America bombed their poor country to pieces during the Korean War.

You need to read this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.79cb01fac346

like most Americans, educate yourself about your own country.

Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home.

We bombed their country protecting the democracy in South Korea from their invasion.

And you expect me to read and believe an article at WaPo?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you kidding? The Roman Republic ended when the Roman Empire was established with the first emperor.

Please stop trying to educate us, it is painful.

Too funny!!!!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We bombed their country protecting the democracy in South Korea from their invasion.

And you expect me to read and believe an article at WaPo?

You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground. And America really has no business being on China's doorstep in the pacific.
Imagine how better you would be if all that military money was spent on infrastructure, healthcare etc. You got that big nuclear fleet off the coast of NK costing so many million per day just to satisfy Trump's ego.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground.

And what did your country do to protect innocent South Korean civilians from Mao and the Communists?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And what did your country do to protect innocent South Korean civilians from Mao and the Communists?

ahh you win. I can't say we did more than you did in carpet bombing and napalming the civilians. Anyhow Trump is doing the opposite of what he said he would do and not get so involved in wars.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Really? I think what they hope to do is appoint the person in charge of the investigation, a person that would be beholden to him, perhaps compromised. Maybe Putin could make some suggestions.

Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?

No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.

Had Trump's selections been more quickly approved by the Senate, Comey would have been removed much earlier.

Democrats have far more to fear than the Republicans here, but, of course, you would never know that watching mainstream media.

Play that clip again of Schumer calling for Comey's removal!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground. And America really has no business being on China's doorstep in the pacific.
Imagine how better you would be if all that military money was spent on infrastructure, healthcare etc. You got that big nuclear fleet off the coast of NK costing so many million per day just to satisfy Trump's ego.

We don't have the right to be on China's doorstep? You mean Taiwan, Japan and S. Korea? I bet they love being called "China's doorstep" and I bet they really love being told by you they don't have the right to be allies with the US.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?

Even so, the special prosecutor will still report to the head of the FBI, bro.

As for Jeff Sessions he recused himself because of his contacts with Russia, perhaps he also would be investigated and even charged. So it is really interesting to know that the guy who might be investigated still has the authority to recommend that the man heading up the investigation be fired.

This is the most interesting presidency by far, wouldn't it be ironic if after all of these "you're fired!" episodes it concludes with the President being fired?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.

Had Trump's selections been more quickly approved by the Senate, Comey would have been removed much earlier.

Democrats have far more to fear than the Republicans here, but, of course, you would never know that watching mainstream media.

Play that clip again of Schumer calling for Comey's removal!

Not according to this report:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-w...d-trump-2017-5

They report it was both Rosenstein and Sessions.

Surely you are not defending Trump firing someone who is the midst of investigating his administration? The only precedent for this is Nixon's firing Cox.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ahh you win. I can't say we did more than you did in carpet bombing and napalming the civilians. Anyhow Trump is doing the opposite of what he said he would do and not get so involved in wars.

Perhaps you are right, the best way for Trump to get people to stop obsessing about his ties with Russia would be to start a nuclear war with N. Korea and China.

[ZNPaaneah]

"While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau." Trump

I love this quote, for those of you who thought Trump fired Comey because he was investigating Trump's connections to Russia this should clear that up

Also for those who think it is unethical to fire the person heading up an investigation of your campaign's possible collusion with Russia, once again that should clear this up

Nope, it is very clear from Trump's note that Comey was fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton.

On a more serious side this confession by Trump of ethics violations should kick off his impeachment hearings.

Has Pence commented yet?

I suppose Bill Clinton will comment on the irony of this quote. This stuff is really entertaining.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Not according to this report:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-w...d-trump-2017-5

They report it was both Rosenstein and Sessions.

Surely you are not defending Trump firing someone who is the midst of investigating his administration? The only precedent for this is Nixon's firing Cox.

After months of this bogus investigation, they surely would have found some evidence to support the "crimes" he was charged with by former Obama operatives. With any legitimate investigation, the crimes are based on evidence. So many things here are backwards and upside down, yet mainstream media "credits" Trump for the inversions.

Regarding the Clinton's and the Obama Admin, however, we already know much of the evidence for crimes they have never been charged with.

Also, how do you think top secret info landed on the "lap top" of your former congressman, a known, yet unindicted, pervert, who also might have been your next mayor? That warrants an "OMG."

Has not Comey unofficially created a two-tiered justice system? One for rich and connected Democrats (and this list is incredibly long and growing,) and one for the rest of Americans, including Republicans like General Petraeus and Scooter Libby? This is why Comey was fired. He "politicized" the FBI, code words for "corrupted." Just another Obama appointed political hack.

Liberals stress out over potential Russian hacking influence in our Presidential elections, but what they should really worry about is the intelligence community of a sitting President influencing elections, "that is a bombshell" -- paraphrased from Senator Rand Paul this morning.

It's too bad that former acting director of the FBI, Mark Guiliano, retired last year. Unlike McCabe, he was "baggage free, a thoroughly competent and upright investigator. He also graduated with my brother from my high school in Cleveland.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After months of this bogus investigation, they surely would have found some evidence to support the "crimes" he was charged with by former Obama operatives.

Regarding the Clinton's and the Obama Admin, however, we already know much of the evidence for crimes they have never been charged with.

Also, how do you think top secret info landed on the "lap top" of your former congressman, a known, yet unindicted, pervert, who also might have been your next mayor? That warrants an "OMG."

Has not Comey unofficially created a two-tiered justice system? One for rich and connected Democrats (and this list is incredibly long and growing,) and one for the rest of Americans, including Republicans like General Petraeus and Scooter Libby? This is why Comey was fired. He "politicized" the FBI, code words for "corrupted." Just another Obama appointed political hack.

I have already said that the emails arriving on his laptop, whether sent manually or automatically, is not very different. Yet that was the cause for firing Comey? Because some were left with the impression she manually forwarded every email instead of having them sent automatically?

Like I said earlier, it simply require clarification and in my mind is not a basis to be fired.

No arguments about the Clinton's being crooked, so why the outrage from Trump over Comey implying they were crooked?

How is this a "bogus investigation" if Trump fired Flynn and Sessions had to recluse himself? After firing Comey it is very reasonable to ask if Yates and Comey were also fired due to the Russian investigation, hence there is no way I see this as bogus and I along with everyone else will demand a full investigation.

Yates position on Trump's wall has already been vindicated. If that was simply an excuse to fire her for her warning on Flynn and Comey's firing was also a pretense and the real reason was the Russia investigation then we don't just have smoke we have "fire".

Who brought this on himself? The same guy who confessed in writing to ethics violations. You realize that what he confessed to is exactly the same thing he accused Bill Clinton of doing with Hillary's investigation.

Do we really want such an idiot running the country?

Do we really want to wait and see what else the guy with the nuclear codes will fire to save his skin?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have already said that the emails arriving on his laptop, whether sent manually or automatically, is not very different. Yet that was the cause for firing Comey? Because some were left with the impression she manually forwarded every email instead of having them sent automatically?

Like I said earlier, it simply require clarification and in my mind is not a basis to be fired.

No arguments about the Clinton's being crooked, so why the outrage from Trump over Comey implying they were crooked?

How is this a "bogus investigation" if Trump fired Flynn and Sessions had to recluse himself? After firing Comey it is very reasonable to ask if Yates and Comey were also fired due to the Russian investigation, hence there is no way I see this as bogus and I along with everyone else will demand a full investigation.

Yates position on Trump's wall has already been vindicated. If that was simply an excuse to fire her for her warning on Flynn and Comey's firing was also a pretense and the real reason was the Russia investigation then we don't just have smoke we have "fire".

Who brought this on himself? The same guy who confessed in writing to ethics violations. You realize that what he confessed to is exactly the same thing he accused Bill Clinton of doing with Hillary's investigation.

Do we really want such an idiot running the country?

Do we really want to wait and see what else the guy with the nuclear codes will fire to save his skin?

Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.

No doubt Trump wanted to clean house of the uncooperative Comey who was investigating his ties to Putin before Trump hosted Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak at the White House today. Trump couldn't risk the chance that the Ruskies would release any of the dirt they have on him because he had failed to thwart the FBI investigation. It's all good.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.

Fair enough, the idiot we have now is better than some of the idiots we might otherwise have.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

No doubt Trump wanted to clean house of the uncooperative Comey who was investigating his ties to Putin before Trump hosted Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak at the White House today. Trump couldn't risk the chance that the Ruskies would release any of the dirt they have on him because he had failed to thwart the FBI investigation. It's all good.

There's a new movie out for you called "La La Land."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fair enough, the idiot we have now is better than some of the idiots we might otherwise have.

I bin tryin to tell ya that all thems in poly ticks are kruks and lyers anda best we kin hope fer is a pate riot in the Big House.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I bin tryin to tell ya that all thems in poly ticks are kruks and lyers anda best we kin hope fer is a pate riot in the Big House.

The Big House? That's Leavenworth, right?

[zeek]

During the former Acting Attorney General’s testimony, we learned that she warned the White House that its former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn had lied about his Russia contacts and was vulnerable to blackmail.

We also learned that President Obama warned Trump directly against hiring Flynn.

But despite these warnings, Flynn was hired and was involved in key national security decisions, even 18 days after the White House was told about his Russian dealings.

These revelations are deeply troubling and are further proof that we need a full accounting of the Trump administration’s Russia ties.

The Senate does not have full-time Senate staff assigned to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. It’s time for an independent commission to uncover the truth.

Firing FBI Director Comey was a step in the Trump Administration's strategy to cover up this grave national security matter.

With Trump’s Russian connections back in the news this week and the FBI's integrity compromised, it's clear that we need an independent commission to investigate the Trump campaign and Administration.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

The Big House? That's Leavenworth, right?

U. Michigan Wolverine stadium, the Buckeyes' arch enemy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

During the former Acting Attorney General’s testimony, we learned that she warned the White House that its former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn had lied about his Russia contacts and was vulnerable to blackmail.

We also learned that President Obama warned Trump directly against hiring Flynn.

But despite these warnings, Flynn was hired and was involved in key national security decisions, even 18 days after the White House was told about his Russian dealings.

These revelations are deeply troubling and are further proof that we need a full accounting of the Trump administration’s Russia ties.

The Senate does not have full-time Senate staff assigned to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. It’s time for an independent commission to uncover the truth.

Firing FBI Director Comey was a step in the Trump Administration's strategy to cover up this grave national security matter.

With Trump’s Russian connections back in the news this week and the FBI's integrity compromised, it's clear that we need an independent commission to investigate the Trump campaign and Administration.

We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.

Flynn lied to Pence, so Trump canned him. That was months ago. And you still want to investigate that. Where were you when the Republicans cried for an independent investogation?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We don't have the right to be on China's doorstep? You mean Taiwan, Japan and S. Korea? I bet they love being called "China's doorstep" and I bet they really love being told by you they don't have the right to be allies with the US.

I'm talking about the 400 military bases that the US has been building up and mobilizing around them:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/233119...erpower-rival/

Surely you don't expect everyone to believe that provocative behavior is only something other countries do.

America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?

Your idea of checks and balances on a nuclear powered President is not realistic. I don't think they hire people who are hesitant about pressing the nuke button. The person who gets the order from trump to press the big red button, they are going to do it either because they are a trump supporter and think trump is always right, or because they are afraid they will lose their job if they don't.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm talking about the 400 military bases that the US has been building up and mobilizing around them:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/233119...erpower-rival/

Surely you don't expect everyone to believe that provocative behavior is only something other countries do.

America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?

Your idea of checks and balances on a nuclear powered President is not realistic. I don't think they hire people who are hesitant about pressing the nuke button. The person who gets the order from trump to press the big red button, they are going to do it either because they are a trump supporter and think trump is always right, or because they are afraid they will lose their job if they don't.

I lived in Taiwan for many years and it was very clear to me they very much wanted the alliance with the US. From my understanding the same is true of Japan and S. Korea.

The only time the US has used a nuclear weapon it was justified. Japan attacked us, we were defending ourselves and more American lives and Japanese lives would have been lost had we used conventional weapons than were lost from the bombs. Also, I blame the Japanese Emperor for the 2nd bomb.

About 80,000 were killed in the bomb that fell on Hiroshima.

Had we gone with operation downfall --

A study performed by physicist William Shockley for the staff of Secretary of War Henry Stimson estimated that the invasion of Japan would cost 1.7-4 million American casualties, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese deaths.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?

The Christians and Kurds, who both have been slaughtered by both the Syrian gov't and ISIS, have long cried out for help and basic humanitarian assistance.

Since the rest of the world, including the UN, do next to nothing for indigent peoples suffering brutalities at the hands of their own gov'ts, THANK GOD the USA has stepped in to help these peoples. During the last century, nearly one quarter billion people have died at the hands of their own gov'ts. What has your country done for these ones? Nothing? I thought so.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Christians and Kurds, who both have been slaughtered by both the Syrian gov't and ISIS, have long cried out for help and basic humanitarian assistance.

Since the rest of the world, including the UN, do next to nothing for indigent peoples suffering brutalities at the hands of their own gov'ts, THANK GOD the USA has stepped in to help these peoples. During the last century, nearly one quarter billion people have died at the hands of their own gov'ts. What has your country done for these ones? Nothing? I thought so.

The US got involved in Syria because of ISIS and the "war on terror". Nothing to do with alleviating the suffering of Christians or Kurds. The US has never been able to do so much about the Kurds because of its ally Turkey. The general consensus on intervention in foreign countries is that intervention makes things worse. It takes away the capacity of the people to solve the problems for themselves. It almost always fails, and deepens and prolongs the problems. I am not talking about supporting a country against clear aggression from a Hitler or a Mao, but the attempt to control the political process within any country as per Libya, Iraq, Syria by military means.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.

Flynn lied to Pence, so Trump canned him. That was months ago. And you still want to investigate that. Where were you when the Republicans cried for an independent investogation?

There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.

Ahem.

"the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...l_intervention

[zeek]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.79aaefd735ad

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/10/politi...t-trump-comey/

Comey's firing was born of trump's tantrum. On top of threatening to out his collusion with the Rooskies, Comey had hurt President Snowflake's feelings.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.79aaefd735ad

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/10/politi...t-trump-comey/

Comey's firing was born of trump's tantrum. On top of threatening to out his collusion with the Rooskies, Comey had hurt President Snowflake's feelings.

First, I see the term "snowflake" as a personal insult. Yes, it is true that Trump does not post here (as far as we know) but even so I think you are setting a dangerous precedent.

Second, I highly doubt it was a tantrum. I think he had been sweating for the last five days what to do, ever since he heard the "good news" that Comey's investigation was beginning to get traction. I think he jumped at the news of Comey's "mistake" as a "viable" excuse to fire him, and not because of the investigation, because, as he said he had been told on three separate times that he was not a target of that investigation.

For example, I was in the lab with my students this last week and two of my students violated very strict rules about lab protocol. As a result both classes had to leave the lab room as it had become unsafe.

I wrote up the incidents and as a result they will both fail lab. There was no "tantrum" instead I was very happy. I knew both students were not ready to move onto Chemistry and now I had the documented event that completely justifies that decision.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Ahem.

"the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...l_intervention

Are those countries happy about it? If not, do something, it is your country and your election.

I am not angry at Russia for intervening in our election, I am angry at Clinton whose use of a non secure server made it easier to hack, and I am angry at anyone who colluded with the Russians and want them caught, tried, and humiliated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.

What? ... my guy lost.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Second, I highly doubt it was a tantrum. I think he had been sweating for the last five days what to do, ever since he heard the "good news" that Comey's investigation was beginning to get traction.

Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.

Other than that, any time frame during the past 6 months or the next 6 months would be deemed suspicious and inappropriate.

Democrats have been calling for Comey's head since last summer. Give them what they want, and now they don't want it any more. Like a petulant child.

And here folks we have "Fake Tears Chucky" --

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.

Other than that, any time frame during the past 6 months or the next 6 months would be deemed suspicious and inappropriate.

Democrats have been calling for Comey's head since last summer. Give them what they want, and now they don't want it any more. Like a petulant child.

And here folks we have "Fake Tears Chucky" --

Regardless of how you spin it, no one can deny that it is unethical for Trump to fire Comey in the middle of investigating Trump's campaign. Even Trump understood that which is why he claimed he wasn't being investigated.

But that claim comes with two more issues:

1. It would be unethical for Comey to have these three alleged conversations with Trump, just as much as Bill Clinton meeting with the AG when she was investigating Hillary was unethical.

2. No one can deny that Comey was investigating Trump's campaign. Claiming that Trump was not being investigated was disingenuous. Since the investigation was not complete how could you possibly know whether or not Trump was part of it?

To now see these republicans paraded out defending this because six months ago Democrats wanted Comey fired is the height of hypocrisy. Think about it, the President was a democrat. Why didn't he fire Comey? Because it would be unethical to do so while Hillary Clinton was being investigated.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.

Except NOT. Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein threatened to resign after his recommendation was cited as the reason that Trump fired Comey.

Long story short, Trump threw a tantrum over the Russian ties investigation and pushed Rosenstein to write the memo, so it didn't look like it came from Trump.

These are clear indicators of guilt ... that smell like Nixon all over again.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Except NOT. Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein threatened to resign after his recommendation was cited as the reason that Trump fired Comey.

Are you serious?! Remember the good old days of Constantine the great when you could get your lackeys to take the fall?

You realize what this means. Sessions and Trump realized the ethical dilemma in firing him and had to give credit to Rosenstein. Which was a lie.

Here is how they are now describing the events. Trump calls a mtg, says he wants to fire Comey, asks AG and Asst AG to put their thoughts into writing. Then pretends it was the Asst AGs comments that were the final piece which prompted him to action.

Looks more and more like Nixon firing Cox.

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you serious?!

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.

The liberals began their impeachment proceedings on November 8.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What? ... my guy lost.

Oh ... I should have thought : Ohio = Kasich. I like him too. Much better than Trump. He would play by the rules and Trump has none.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The liberals began their impeachment proceedings on November 8.

And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.

I had to revisit this. Cuz I have to announced that we're extremely lucky to have someone on AltVs with Top security clearance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh ... I should have thought : Ohio = Kasich. I like him too. Much better than Trump. He would play by the rules and Trump has none.

I would have voted for him as well.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.

Recently learned that Benghazi was not so simple. The State Department actually had little say in how that place was guarded. It was a front for the CIA operation down the street. State was given the task of having a show of presence so that U.S. personnel could be at the annex down the street. No amount of clamoring by State was going to change the level of defense for the people there.

Not defending HC. She still has plenty to be called to account for.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.

And the Democrats are fine with liars, crooks, and traitors too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I had to revisit this. Cuz I have to announced that we're extremely lucky to have someone on AltVs with Top security clearance.

Would that be your friend Anthony Weiner?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And the Democrats are fine with liars, crooks, and traitors too.

And that is what you reap when you don't deal with sin, you no longer have a standing or a ground to deal with anyone else's sin.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And that is what you reap when you don't deal with sin, you no longer have a standing or a ground to deal with anyone else's sin.

Are you impugning Kenneth Starr, who impeached Clinton?

His credentials were irreproachable.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you serious?! Remember the good old days of Constantine the great when you could get your lackeys to take the fall?

You realize what this means. Sessions and Trump realized the ethical dilemma in firing him and had to give credit to Rosenstein. Which was a lie.

Here is how they are now describing the events. Trump calls a mtg, says he wants to fire Comey, asks AG and Asst AG to put their thoughts into writing. Then pretends it was the Asst AGs comments that were the final piece which prompted him to action.

Looks more and more like Nixon firing Cox.

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.

And it gets even worse. Under oath high ranking FBI officials say that Trump's claim that Comey had lost the confidence of the FBI is false.

Trump's claim that the Asst AG prompted the firing of Comey is false.

Soon we'll find out if Trump's claim that Comey told him he wasn't the focus of an investigation is false.

If the Asst AG did not push for comedy to be fired then it is clearly and undeniably a conflict of interest on Trump's part.

That would make his explanation for firing Comey to include 3 lies and unethical behavior.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you impugning Kenneth Starr, who impeached Clinton?

His credentials were irreproachable.

It is hard to figure out who is not being impugned at this point, going all the way back to the box 13 scandal. With an approval rank of 35% Trump would surely be given a vote of no confidence if this were a Parliamentary system.

Regardless of whether or not he is impeached he clearly has no political clout. Look at the outrage these politicians face in their town halls. They (Republicans) are going to be terrified of having anything to do with Trump. They are on a sinking ship and he is the anchor, they will cut the rope. If you think the first 100 days were ugly you haven't seen anything yet. You can't blame Democrats, the Republicans control both the Senate and the House. Apparently "getting tired of winning" happened much faster than any of us could have imagined.

But that is secondary, this is a matter of national security and that is what is truly scary. If Trump was innocent he would have given Comey everything he needed to put this to bed quickly, instead he has acted to obstruct an investigation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau." Trump

I love this quote, for those of you who thought Trump fired Comey because he was investigating Trump's connections to Russia this should clear that up

Also for those who think it is unethical to fire the person heading up an investigation of your campaign's possible collusion with Russia, once again that should clear this up

Nope, it is very clear from Trump's note that Comey was fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton.

On a more serious side this confession by Trump of ethics violations should kick off his impeachment hearings.

Has Pence commented yet?

I suppose Bill Clinton will comment on the irony of this quote. This stuff is really entertaining.

Politics
Sean Spicer Had a Meltdown After Trump Fired Comey, Hiding in Bushes and Demanding Darkness

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Politics
Sean Spicer Had a Meltdown After Trump Fired Comey, Hiding in Bushes and Demanding Darkness

And now after Rosenstein almost quit over getting the blame Trump changes his story, that, he was gonna fire Comey without the AG and deputy AG recommendations, because, Comey was showboating and grandstanding. Boy if that's not a projection I don't know what is.

And what about Sessions recusing himself and still interfering with the Russian ties investigation. It all smacks of guilt, again.

I'd ask why Trump doesn't know about Nixon, but he's so stupid that he thinks he just invented "prime the pump." Bahahahaha

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.

No, that was what we were told yesterday, but today according to Trump and Rosenstein both, it was definitely Trump that called for Comey's removal.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by awareness

And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.

And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Apparently Comey was axed by Trump because he refused to make a loyalty pledge.

I am vaguely familiar with this practice of loyalty pledges, where have we heard that one before?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, that was what we were told yesterday, but today according to Trump and Rosenstein both, it was definitely Trump that called for Comey's removal.

Ohio bought Trump's story.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Ohio bought Trump's story.

We have had experience with WL and his "loyalty pledge" and saw the results of that. We need to respond to this threat. James says 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Comey did the right thing in refusing to swear a loyalty pledge to Trump. The assistant head of the FBI did the right thing in his testimony yesterday. We cannot sit idly by as a political hack is put in charge of the FBI who swears allegiance to Trump, while Trump is bringing Russians into the oval office with their tape measurers, cameras, and every other "gift" they might have for Trump.

[Ohio]

This is what happens if you mess with the swamp.

"All the swamp creatures begin snapping and writhing and yowling like angry cats in the dark. For the better part of a year now, the only thing everyone in Washington could agree upon was that now-ex FBI Director Jim Comey was an overreaching, underperforming dolt. He fancied himself to be attorney general after he had lost all confidence in Loretta Lynch, the actual attorney general. That was after Ms. Lynch had met privately on a jet with former President Bill Clinton on a tarmac in Phoenix. This was at a time when Mr. Clinton’s wife was running for president while under investigation by the attorney general and the FBI for criminal misuse of classified emails.

Wearing his Big Boy AG shoes last summer, Mr. Comey delivered the most damning non-indictment of Mrs. Clinton in the history of criminal justice. After listing a long rap sheet of inexcusable, reckless and conspiratorial handling of state secrets over a purposely concealed home email server — designed specifically to shield Mrs. Clinton from public scrutiny — Mr. Comey jarringly announced that he was recommending that no charges would be forthcoming. “Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case,” he said, concluding his withering damnation of Mrs. Clinton last July.

But, lest any mere mortals think they might get away with doing the same thing Mrs. Clinton had done, Mr. Comey was blunt. “To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences,” he warned. “To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions.” “But” he added, “that is not what we are deciding now.” In other words, if you are a former first lady who is about to be the next president and whose husband is a former president who just met privately on a plane on a tarmac, then you won’t be charged. But if you are a mere citizen or public employee with no such influence, you’re gambling with your life and your career.

Ahhh, life in the swamp.

Despite all of this baggage, Democrats nominated Mrs. Clinton anyway. But Mr. Comey was not finished with her yet. Like a swamp cat playing with a swamp rat, he toyed with her again and again up until the last weeks and days of the campaign. Mr. Comey was for her before he was against her. Then he was for her again. Life in the swamp can be disorienting — especially if you are the rat being toyed with. “If the election had been on Oct. 27, I would be your president,” Mrs. Clinton said recently, referring to one of Mr. Comey’s final interferences in the campaign. The election, of course, was held a week later. And she lost.

Donald Trump was hired instead to drain the swamp Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Comey had inhabited for far too long.

Now, of course, Mr. Comey has been sacked and the Democrats are losing their minds. None of them seems to think Mr. Comey should not have been fired. They just think he should have been fired sooner. Truth is, they really just think he should have been fired by President Hillary Clinton. Which raises another interesting question. If the Democrats’ only complaint right now is that Mr. Trump did not fire Mr. Comey sooner, then shouldn’t they be mad at former President Barack Obama for not firing Mr. Comey after the election?

Or, even better, before the election?" -- Charles Hurt, Washington Times

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We have had experience with WL and his "loyalty pledge" and saw the results of that. We need to respond to this threat. James says 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Comey did the right thing in refusing to swear a loyalty pledge to Trump. The assistant head of the FBI did the right thing in his testimony yesterday. We cannot sit idly by as a political hack is put in charge of the FBI who swears allegiance to Trump, while Trump is bringing Russians into the oval office with their tape measurers, cameras, and every other "gift" they might have for Trump.

All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.

Sound more like a MINO, mugwump in name only.

An independent ... kind of like ole Bernie Sanders?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.

I do not agree with Bill Clinton meeting with Janet Reno, I think they should be investigated and prosecuted if found guilty. Therefore it is consistent to hold Trump to the same standard. Trump condemned Clinton seeing Reno privately and yet confessed to the exact same conflict of interest.

I don't disagree that Trump ran on the pledge to drain the swamp, but with all the billionaires in place and the exact same crooked practices only more blatant and more in your face, this is not what I understood "drain the swamp" to mean.

I believe the evidence is clear and convincing that Russia hacked the DNC emails with the intention of damaging Hillary Clinton's campaign. It is also clear that Flynn had unethical ties to Russia and that Sessions is also too close to Russia to be a fair judge in the matter. Also Mannafort was far too close to Russia for 10 years to be a campaign manager for a US presidential election. Carter Paige and Roger Stone are just two more examples of a disturbing connection. Of course Jared Kushner's ties have to be investigated as well. Why did Trump gut the Republican party plank on Russia's invasion of the Ukraine?

That to me is enough to justify a demand to see Trump's tax returns and have a full and complete investigation. This is not politics, it is national security.

To make things worse Trump fired the acting AG and replaced her with Sessions who has ties to Russia. His appointment to National Security Advisor was compromised due to his ties to Russia. Finally, he fired the head of the FBI who was overseeing the investigation of collusion between Trump's administration and Russia.

And how exactly did this take place? Flynn was never vetted because they trusted Obama's vetting, only problem is Obama fired Flynn and warned Trump about him. So that is a completely bogus explanation for why you don't vet your NSA?!

Sally Yates was fired ostensibly because she felt his anti immigration policy was unconstitutional. It has since been judged to be unconstitutional. If Trump is to be believed she was fired for doing her job and being truthful to him. But it is also reasonable to think the real reason to fire her was to put his man in charge of the investigation into Russia's hacking and collusion.

Likewise the stories we heard about Comey's being fired were lies. Lots, and lots of lies. He was not fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton as was first alleged. He was not fired because of the Assistant AG's recommendation. The second version of what took place. He was fired because he did not do a loyalty pledge to Trump. The chairman of the House intelligence committee investigation (Devin Nunez) has had to step away due to his coordination with the Trump administration.

In 2014 Reuters reported Eric Trump saying that they had access to $100million in funding from Russia. Yet yesterday Trump tells us he doesn't have any assets in Russia. This is why we need to see the tax returns.

In 2008 Eric said that they were seeing a disproportionate amount of funding coming in from Russia.

But yesterday Donald Trump tweets "I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!"

Something does not smell right to me.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.

In what parallel universe were Reno, Holder, and Lynch FBI directors?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sound more like a MINO, mugwump in name only.

An independent ... kind of like ole Bernie Sanders?

So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.

You nasty liberal lover!

[awareness]

Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian.

Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious.
Take my friends and family . . .

My sister, a Yellowdog Democrat, is that way with our family. She won't talk politics with them. I gets too heated. I'm a mugwump, I don't like either party, and so don't have that problem. I'm with them when they are critical of democrats. And I pick on my sister so much she don't want me to talk politics. For eight years I really enjoyed bringing up Obama's flaws. My sister hated it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

Oh, my. my ... so you don't support Trump's EO on preachers preaching politics? But I think Trump did atheists a big favor. And they are so stupid they need all the help they can get. They don't even realize that the best thing that could happen to their movement is for the wall of separation between church and state to be taken down. Just look at Europe, for example.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along.

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

You and zeek are at times like LC leaders

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone.

The both of you can be pretty nasty toward each other. Stop it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You, however, do it for laughs.

And there's plenty to laugh at, in religion and politics. Except in this last election. Both parties -- the Hildabeast and Drumpf -- are no laughing matter. Our comedians, however, sure are having a heyday ... way more than the days of Dubya. I didn't like him back then, but he sure looks pretty good about now.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

A fair-minded person, in our context here, can differentiate between a few bad examples and the whole. What you do is what generally defines bigotry -- project the failures of a few upon the whole.

No fair-minded person would castigate every LC-er solely for what Mel Porter did to you back in the chaotic 80's. This is why I constantly differentiate between the actions of leaders at LSM and the typical LC members. Your "unbalanced" views leave no room for differentiation, and consequently you seem unable to find anything good from your time in the SBC or TLR. That is not healthy bro!

Then you set out to "prove" your thesis on a regular basis. For example, Ohio is an evangelist who does not condemn Trump for his policies, and yet Trump is a "known" misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral billionaire, therefore all evangelicals are also misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral. That is the message I hear on this thread.

Don't you think that is just a little too extreme?

Also, W. Lee did teach that "all Christianity was Christless" in the 1976 summer Revelations training. Forty years ago I accepted that and it had a negative impact on me. But I also heard in parochial school that Lutherans can't go to heaven. So what?!? Do we still cling to those archaic generalizations? Are we taking that nonsense to our graves? To be honest, my wife and I are slowly becoming friends with our Catholic and Protestant neighbors because we have dropped that old junk we heard in our youth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.

You could take some lessons from Greg Gutfeld. He is a mugwump but is also independent, and conservative libertarian. And occasionally funny, like you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But yesterday Donald Trump tweets "I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!"

Something does not smell right to me.

I have a lot of respect for Senator Rand Paul, not that I agree with all of his policies, but the guy is honorable and trustworthy. Here is what he said recently:

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) earlier this week revealed that another senator had told him that he was surveilled by the Obama administration. “I know one other senator [Rubio?, Cruz?, Graham?] who’s already confided to me that he was surveilled by the Obama administration, including his phone calls,” he told Fox News on Wednesday. “So when this all comes out, if there are political figures from the opposition party, it’s a story bigger than any of the allegations with regard to Russian collusion,” he said.

Earlier this month, Paul announced that sources have told him that he has been surveilled by the Obama administration, and that he has requested information from the White House and the congressional intelligence committees on whether he has ever been surveilled, unmasked, or searched for in intelligence reports. “It’s about your own government spying on the opposition party, that would be enormous if true,” he said. “I don’t know the truth. We’ve asked the intel committees, House and Senate, and I’ve also asked the White House, because there is this whole discussion of Susan Rice unmasking people,” he said.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper revealed that last year, 1,934 Americans’ names were unmasked. Last month it was reported that Susan Rice had unmasked Trump campaign officials — which she has not denied, but only claimed that it was not illegal.

“There was no reason for her to unmask people. Hers was not a position of investigation. Hers was a political position. And for her to get involved with unmasking Trump officials is alarming. If it happened to other people, it’s even more alarming,” he said. “But we’re going to try to get to the bottom of this. And it’s a very secret world. You have to realize that it’s a world so secret most members of Congress are never allowed.”

For me this is the far bigger story than some Russian collusion with the Trump administration, which explains why they apparently have found no evidence for election tampering after all these months. And until they do, I have to believe, based on the history of Obama operatives, that RussiaGate is nothing more than smokescreen. The real investigations ought to be centered on Hillary and Susan Rice.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.

Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You could take some lessons from Greg Gutfeld. He is a mugwump but is also independent, and conservative libertarian. And occasionally funny, like you.

Now you know why I'm offended when you call me a liberal. I don't identify as liberal or conservative. I'm both. Example : I'm very liberal with your daughters and very conservative with mine. haha

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now you know why I'm offended when you call me a liberal. I don't identify as liberal or conservative. I'm both. Example : I'm very liberal with your daughters and very conservative with mine. haha

Then the only real difference we have is semantics!

That explains everything.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?

"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have a lot of respect for Senator Rand Paul, not that I agree with all of his policies, but the guy is honorable and trustworthy. Here is what he said recently:

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) earlier this week revealed that another senator had told him that he was surveilled by the Obama administration. “I know one other senator [Rubio?, Cruz?, Graham?] who’s already confided to me that he was surveilled by the Obama administration, including his phone calls,” he told Fox News on Wednesday. “So when this all comes out, if there are political figures from the opposition party, it’s a story bigger than any of the allegations with regard to Russian collusion,” he said.

Earlier this month, Paul announced that sources have told him that he has been surveilled by the Obama administration, and that he has requested information from the White House and the congressional intelligence committees on whether he has ever been surveilled, unmasked, or searched for in intelligence reports. “It’s about your own government spying on the opposition party, that would be enormous if true,” he said. “I don’t know the truth. We’ve asked the intel committees, House and Senate, and I’ve also asked the White House, because there is this whole discussion of Susan Rice unmasking people,” he said.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper revealed that last year, 1,934 Americans’ names were unmasked. Last month it was reported that Susan Rice had unmasked Trump campaign officials — which she has not denied, but only claimed that it was not illegal.

“There was no reason for her to unmask people. Hers was not a position of investigation. Hers was a political position. And for her to get involved with unmasking Trump officials is alarming. If it happened to other people, it’s even more alarming,” he said. “But we’re going to try to get to the bottom of this. And it’s a very secret world. You have to realize that it’s a world so secret most members of Congress are never allowed.”

For me this is the far bigger story than some Russian collusion with the Trump administration, which explains why they apparently have found no evidence for election tampering after all these months. And until they do, I have to believe, based on the history of Obama operatives, that RussiaGate is nothing more than smokescreen. The real investigations ought to be centered on Hillary and Susan Rice.

I agree that this would be a very big story, but since the Republicans control the Senate, House and Whitehouse you would think it would be easy to investigate this and get to the bottom of it. Therefore, are they doing that? If so, why make allegations until you have the facts? That comes across as throwing mud to create a distraction.

Yes, everyone agrees that the allegation, if true, is very serious. The problem is the people making this allegation are in power. Why are they acting impotent like they cannot get the truth?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”

He is frustrated but that is the wrong attitude. James said to "count it all joy" -- that is the right attitude. Understand that Trump and his administration will perfect your patience, and you can't be a mature Christian if you are not patient. Think of the irony of calling him a baby if your not fully mature. Very often you see these guys who are questioning the Trump communication team drop their jaw when they see something that appears as a blatant lie (like saying they weren't trying to pin the Comey firing on the assistant AG). But James says that if you need wisdom to deal with the trial, then ask.

So I think this is a good example of the error I am talking about which is not helpful. Be patient. Trump has only been president for about 100 days and we already may have evidence of obstruction of justice (a valid basis for impeachment), the pressure for the tax returns has intensified while Trump appears to be more and more desperate. If those tax returns turn up a very close tie to Russian financing it would reveal that Trump is a liar based on his Tweet disavowing any connection at all. That would also be a very strong basis for impeachment. Because of all this a good 65% of Americans do not trust Trump, are concerned about his ties to Russia and tax returns, so this provides a political mandate. Finally, in June there is a key election in Georgia. If the democrat wins you will see a defection from Trump by those in the Republican party that are concerned about the midterm elections.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

Why is this?

If the US is a democracy then majority rules should still have an impact on policy, not 9 Supreme court justices.

I have thought about this issue for years and have determined that the solution is quite simple, the US constitution does not say anything about it, therefore it should be left up to the States. If the Supreme court were honest they would say that they did not have jurisdiction. As a result some states would legalize and some would make it illegal and others would have a variety of restrictions. Then it would be very easy to measure how a State's policy impacts the health and welfare of the people. Then, 44 years later, you would have a very clear evidence as to how each policy will impact your people and State. Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

But that isn't what happened. Instead Blackmun's ruling is to put your hands over your eyes and see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

That policy has been a total and complete failure. We don't want, need or authorize the Supreme court to make laws and ignore the US constitution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

For me the 1st and 2nd Amend rights are similar -- you can do anything you want with your own body or your own guns -- until someone else gets hurt. That's when your rights stop. Except in the case of self-defense. So is that the excuse women use? "The baby was killing me, so I killed it in self-defense." Nonsense, abortion is murder, plain and simple, murder for convenience.

Your sister's (and she is not alone) argument is bogus. Full of stereotypes. Don't the unborn, 50% of whom are women, have rights too? And what about all the pro-life women who want to change the laws to protect the unborn?

What if the mothers of all of these pro-abortion women felt the same as they do???

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree that this would be a very big story, but since the Republicans control the Senate, House and Whitehouse you would think it would be easy to investigate this and get to the bottom of it. Therefore, are they doing that? If so, why make allegations until you have the facts? That comes across as throwing mud to create a distraction.

Yes, everyone agrees that the allegation, if true, is very serious. The problem is the people making this allegation are in power. Why are they acting impotent like they cannot get the truth?

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Thy bias runneth over!

Where are all the facts the democrats have? They been throwing mud since Nov 8. The Repubs have evidence, otherwise Flynn would never have resigned.

The Repubs have no power until the swamp is drained. Even then, with the Democrats controlling the media, who is really in power?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree that this would be a very big story, but since the Republicans control the Senate, House and Whitehouse you would think it would be easy to investigate this and get to the bottom of it. Therefore, are they doing that? If so, why make allegations until you have the facts? That comes across as throwing mud to create a distraction.

Yes, everyone agrees that the allegation, if true, is very serious. The problem is the people making this allegation are in power. Why are they acting impotent like they cannot get the truth?

Rand Paul, as much I don't like the crazy senator (like his father - who I liked but thought went off the rails with crazy at times - I like Rand the same way) but he's right to oppose all the mass surveillance by NSA.

I said it long ago, to folks around here (in Rand Paul land) but they told me, "if you've got nothing to hide then there's no problem." But there is a problem. I said, "but eventually they will be surveilling everyone, including judges, lawyers, politicians, congressmen, senators, and everyone else in government.

Let's face it, the legislators okayed it, and now it's coming back to bite THEM in the rear.

The sun sets on the Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act at the end of this year. Rand Paul is pushing to allow it to expire. So I doubt all these claims by Paul about Obama wiretapping everyone is true. He's just trying to make a point that all this surveillance is bad. And he's right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is this?

If the US is a democracy then majority rules should still have an impact on policy, not 9 Supreme court justices.

I have thought about this issue for years and have determined that the solution is quite simple, the US constitution does not say anything about it, therefore it should be left up to the States. If the Supreme court were honest they would say that they did not have jurisdiction. As a result some states would legalize and some would make it illegal and others would have a variety of restrictions. Then it would be very easy to measure how a State's policy impacts the health and welfare of the people. Then, 44 years later, you would have a very clear evidence as to how each policy will impact your people and State. Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

But that isn't what happened. Instead Blackmun's ruling is to put your hands over your eyes and see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

That policy has been a total and complete failure. We don't want, need or authorize the Supreme court to make laws and ignore the US constitution.

Totally agree. It has been said that Roe was the worst piece of juris prudence in our history. That liberal scotus is guilty of millions of murders.

Next comes the redefinition of marriage.

The real difference between liberals and conservatives is on display for all to see. Pro-life marches and protests have been held for 44 years without a single case of violence. Compare that to campus snowflakes, black lives matter, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Rand Paul, as much I don't like the crazy senator (like his father - who I liked but thought went off the rails with crazy at times - I like Rand the same way) but he's right to oppose all the mass surveillance by NSA.

I said it long ago, to folks around here (in Rand Paul land) but they told me, "if you've got nothing to hide then there's no problem." But there is a problem. I said, "but eventually they will be surveilling everyone, including judges, lawyers, politicians, congressmen, senators, and everyone else in government.

Let's face it, the legislators okayed it, and now it's coming back to bite THEM in the rear.

The sun sets on the Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act at the end of this year. Rand Paul is pushing to allow it to expire. So I doubt all these claims by Paul about Obama wiretapping everyone is true. He's just trying to make a point that all this surveillance is bad. And he's right.

Why do you doubt? Remember James Rosen' surveillance by Obama admin?

Remember Sharyl Attkisson? She literally watched her computer being turned on in the middle of the night, with the cursor moving around copying and deleting files, uploading and downloading files?

Now you know that computers just don't do that on their own!!! And then the official explanation she received from the Inspector General was that her "backspace key was stuck." Uh-huh, sure!

But hey, Rand Paul is conservative! He's a medical doctor. He's from Kentucky! So you really can't trust him. I understand that bro.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

Would you mind changing the wording here?

You have until 6.45 am tomorrow.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

Somewhere Freud is smiling.

[Sorry Freud - MOTA]

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But hey, Rand Paul is conservative! He's a medical doctor. He's from Kentucky! So you really can't trust him. I understand that bro.

Do I really have to like Rand Paul, and the O'l Mitch to meet your approval.

Just tell me. Do you approve or disapprove of all the NSA snooping on everyone?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Would you mind changing the wording here?

You have until 6.45 am tomorrow.

Sorry, I meant puss. I was too late to make the change.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do I really have to like Rand Paul, and the O'l Mitch to meet your approval.

Just tell me. Do you approve or disapprove of all the NSA snooping on everyone?

I think it is foolish to disapprove. Pandora's box has already been opened, China, Russia, Europe, even N. Korea are all snooping on everyone.

I approve of those who can walk in the light.

That said I realize the potential for a corrupt leader to photoshop and otherwise digitally enhance in order to frame innocent people. This is why I approve of Armageddon and the Lord Jesus 2nd coming.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Thy bias runneth over!

Where are all the facts the democrats have? They been throwing mud since Nov 8. The Repubs have evidence, otherwise Flynn would never have resigned.

The Repubs have no power until the swamp is drained. Even then, with the Democrats controlling the media, who is really in power?

If you can't prove something then it is counterproductive to make the allegation. This is why prosecutors don't bring a charge unless they have enough evidence to see it in court, and this is why a judge will throw out a trial if you don't present evidence.

If they have the evidence, then proceed with the prosecution. If they don't have the evidence proceed with your investigation, but do it quietly.

The biggest problem I have with Trump's administration is the proliferation of unsubstantiated accusations. He is the President, he has the most powerful surveillance and investigative tools at his disposal. Making unsubstantiated allegations and empty threats just makes him look impotent, which in turn insults our country.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Would you mind changing the wording here?

You have until 6.45 am tomorrow.

I fixed it ...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey Moda ... let's keep it clean!

Just representing our glorious president. But I agree it was funny watching all the news heads trying to tell that story.

Then, it has turned out that big guns of the news have been doing it too.

Must be a drag to be a women in this sort of mans' world.

But I guess we've come a long way. As far as I know men today aren't knocking them in the head and dragging them to their cave.

Must be great to be so great as to getting away with it. I couldn't even touch my wife's without her permission. I'm sure you understand.

BTW, I fixed ZNP's but not mine. Mine was intentional. His wasn't.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sorry, I meant puss. I was too late to make the change.

Puss? Didn't you mean pus?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Puss? Don't you mean pus?

yes, my bad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do I really have to like Rand Paul, and the O'l Mitch to meet your approval.

Just tell me. Do you approve or disapprove of all the NSA snooping on everyone?

I don't approve of Big Brother. Rand Paul is on my side here.

Have you read about the WannaCry RansomWare? That's just a fraction of NSA's power. Apparently their "bag of tools" is so expansive, they "lose" a few "tools" now and then.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Pandora's box has already been opened, China, Russia, Europe, even N. Korea are all snooping on everyone.

I approve of those who can walk in the light.

That said I realize the potential for a corrupt leader to photoshop and otherwise digitally enhance in order to frame innocent people. This is why I approve of Armageddon and the Lord Jesus 2nd coming.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't approve of Big Brother. Rand Paul is on my side here.

Pandora's b.Big Brother Good, Rand Paul Bad..

What, sorry, seems my space bar is stuck.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Pandora's b.Big Brother Good, Rand Paul Bad..

What, sorry, seems my space bar is stuck.

I'm looking for that NSA software to download so I can hack into your computer in the middle of the night.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you can't prove something then it is counterproductive to make the allegation. This is why prosecutors don't bring a charge unless they have enough evidence to see it in court, and this is why a judge will throw out a trial if you don't present evidence.

If they have the evidence, then proceed with the prosecution. If they don't have the evidence proceed with your investigation, but do it quietly.

The biggest problem I have with Trump's administration is the proliferation of unsubstantiated accusations. He is the President, he has the most powerful surveillance and investigative tools at his disposal. Making unsubstantiated allegations and empty threats just makes him look impotent, which in turn insults our country.

I don't agree. Try listening to other news sources, like Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

BTW, I fixed ZNP's but not mine. Mine was intentional. His wasn't.

Now you got real MODA power.

You have become dangerous.

Time for you to moderate a few rogue governments.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't agree. Try listening to other news sources, like Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity.

How about Ann Coulter? She seems to think he has been a disaster and she wrote "In Trump we trust". Not exactly a Trump hater.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about Ann Coulter? She seems to think he has been a disaster and she wrote "In Trump we trust". Not exactly a Trump hater.

You're the second guy who brought up Coulter. Whasup with her?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You're the second guy who brought up Coulter. Whasup with her?

She described the US as being in Chicago and voting for Trump because he promised to get us to California in six days, yet every time you turn around he is heading to NY. In short she said that the administration has been a disaster so far.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

She described the US as being in Chicago and voting for Trump because he promised to get us to California in six days, yet every time you turn around he is heading to NY. In short she said that the administration has been a disaster so far.

So Hillary was a better choice for Coulter?

Sounds to me like she is trying to up her own ratings.

But I don't understand California in 6 days ...

Obama promised to balance the budget in 4 years, and then succeeded in doubling the debt in 8 years, and no one challenged him on that. So why is Coulter so impatient after 100 days?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

No doubt Trump wanted to clean house of the uncooperative Comey who was investigating his ties to Putin before Trump hosted Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak at the White House today. Trump couldn't risk the chance that the Ruskies would release any of the dirt they have on him because he had failed to thwart the FBI investigation. It's all good.

President Donald Trump last week shared highly classified intelligence with the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in an Oval Office meeting that was so under wraps that American allies were not aware of the information, The Washington Post reported Monday.

Current and former anonymous US officials told The Post that Trump's disclosures to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak jeopardized a key source of intelligence about the Islamic State terror group, as the source had not given the US permission to share the intelligence with Russia.

Officials told The Post that Trump's disclosure risked the cooperation of an ally that has access inside of ISIS.

This story is stating very clearly that the intelligence community does not trust Trump with classified material anymore. The key reason why information like this would not be shared with our allies is that we think it would compromise our source. Trump has compromised our source with the Russians.

[Evangelical]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Trump always has a bigger smile when shaking a Russian's hand. He doesn't smile like that for others.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Trump always has a bigger smile when shaking a Russian's hand. He doesn't smile like that for others.

The $100 million smile.

[ZNPaaneah]

The underlying basis for the Whitehouse briefing is that the Whitehouse belongs to the US, it is our government, and for a democracy to work we need an informed electorate.

No doubt if the Whitehouse belonged to Donald Trump he could cancel press briefings if he wished, but this is not a privately held company. Every citizen has a stake in this union and we cannot possibly be responsible citizens without getting information.

Now if the Whitehouse cancelled their press briefings it would not stop us from having News (free press is a constitutional right and mandate). But it would stop the Whitehouse from being able to share their story, correct misconceptions, and be a part of this story. Being the first to shape the story is power, canceling that feature is like cutting off a person's arm. Generally speaking not something that is desirable unless you have gangrene.

Therefore I find it very interesting that Trump would suggest this. Does he realize that the Whitehouse press briefing is an instrument of power? Or does he realize that his administration is in critical condition with a spreading gangrene?

Every dictator uses the media to trumpet their version of reality. They do it for mind control and to counteract other versions of reality. In the US we don't have a dictator, we have a "free press" and the President's power is transmitted through that press. We feel this is more powerful because it is more credible. But if he canceled them he would truly be impotent.

Which also raises the question as to why he has not given a press briefing in almost 10 months. Have we ever seen anything like this with any other president? I thought the previous record was around 3 months?

As long as we are in this bizarro realm, how many campaign rallies has he given since being sworn in? Have we ever seen that before?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

President Donald Trump last week shared highly classified intelligence with the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in an Oval Office meeting that was so under wraps that American allies were not aware of the information, The Washington Post reported Monday.

Current and former anonymous US officials told The Post that Trump's disclosures to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak jeopardized a key source of intelligence about the Islamic State terror group, as the source had not given the US permission to share the intelligence with Russia.

Officials told The Post that Trump's disclosure risked the cooperation of an ally that has access inside of ISIS.

This story is stating very clearly that the intelligence community does not trust Trump with classified material anymore. The key reason why information like this would not be shared with our allies is that we think it would compromise our source. Trump has compromised our source with the Russians.

Donald Trump Tweets that he has the absolute right to share this information with the Russians because he wants them to help fight ISIS.

Very often I have felt that the worst ills are always brought on by those proclaiming that "they have a good heart".

One main reason certain information is classified is to protect the source, which if outed would almost certainly be killed. A second main reason is that if our sources do not trust that their identity will be protected they will stop being sources.

This attitude by Trump is ignorant and very dangerous.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't agree. Try listening to Sean Hannity.

Oh yeah, and you can join him in giving Trump tongue baths.

[ZNPaaneah]

A second consecutive day of bombshell stories sent the Trump administration scrambling after the New York Times reported Tuesday that President Trump implored FBI Director James Comey to drop the bureau’s investigation into former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s ties to Russia at a February meeting.

The White House issued a response minutes after the story posted to the Times website, denying the president ever made such a request.

According to the Times report, which has since been confirmed by multiple news outlets, Trump broached the subject of the investigation into Flynn’s ties with Russia, asked Comey to “let this go.”

From the Times:

“I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go,” Mr. Trump told Mr. Comey, according to the memo. “He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”

This is getting ridiculous. Either there are those in the Whitehouse trying to bring him down at great risk to their own career or else he needs to go. We have to see the tax returns. We have to know if there are tapes and if so listen to them. If this memo from Comey is not true then it must be proven, I don't think anyone is going to take Trump's word over Comey's.

[ZNPaaneah]

Putin has a transcript of the conversation in the Oval office that proves Trump didn't reveal classified information?

Is this supposed to be comforting?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

A second consecutive day of bombshell stories sent the Trump administration scrambling after the New York Times reported Tuesday that President Trump implored FBI Director James Comey to drop the bureau’s investigation into former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s ties to Russia at a February meeting.

The White House issued a response minutes after the story posted to the Times website, denying the president ever made such a request.

According to the Times report, which has since been confirmed by multiple news outlets, Trump broached the subject of the investigation into Flynn’s ties with Russia, asked Comey to “let this go.”

From the Times:

“I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go,” Mr. Trump told Mr. Comey, according to the memo. “He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”

This is getting ridiculous. Either there are those in the Whitehouse trying to bring him down at great risk to their own career or else he needs to go. We have to see the tax returns. We have to know if there are tapes and if so listen to them. If this memo from Comey is not true then it must be proven, I don't think anyone is going to take Trump's word over Comey's.

Kasich ripped into Trump last night to the extent that he rips into anyone. Once again reminding us that he refused to go to the Republican convention.

But what we know for certain is that Trump met privately with Comey in the oval office, asking Pence and Sessions to step out while he had private words with Comey. This conversation, according to Comey, was Trump asking him to drop the investigation of Flynn. Comey did not drop the investigation and saw this request as "appalling" and documented it. He did not tell anyone else at the FBI, further supporting the fact that he did not let it affect him as far as stopping the investigation, however it does raise the issue of why he didn't mention this in the hearings he was at after this took place. We then know that in public Trump asked Comey to pledge his loyalty to which he only agreed to pledge to be truthful. Following this Comey was fired for "grandstanding" and doing "a bad job".

Trump's version is different, but it also differs from Spicer's version and it differs from Mike Pence's version. The Whitehouse has released 3 different official versions of what took place. However we have witnessed Trump try to undermine the US Judicial process when his travel ban was rejected and also when Trump U was being sued. Being involved in thousands of lawsuits does damage his credibility to me. Refusing to release his tax returns makes me think he is hiding something. Hiring numerous people who had to be fired due to their involvement with Russia makes me trust him even less.

When Trump was elected it was like he was put in charge of driving the bus I was on. From that point on I was hoping he could do a good job. My attitude has changed. I would exit this bus at the very first opportunity, my concern over his ability to operate the bus has gone from questioning to being convinced I don't want this person responsible for my safety.

Fox host: No Republicans 'willing to go on camera' after Comey memo

So Trump has burned his bridges with the CIA, NSA, FBI, Whitehouse Staff, Republicans and even Fox news.

It does seem he was right, everyone is now tired of winning.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When Trump was elected it was like he was put in charge of driving the bus I was on. From that point on I was hoping he could do a good job. My attitude has changed. I would exit this bus at the very first opportunity, my concern over his ability to operate the bus has gone from questioning to being convinced I don't want this person responsible for my safety.

Kind of explains why Americans actually prefer Manchurian Puppets for their President. It's just so comforting to have him/her read from teleprompters and give us hope and assurance every night before bed.

With teams of seasoned speech writers, researchers, legal counselors, and PR staff, how could this bus have gone off course? Surely the Russians must have hacked our election machines!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kind of explains why Americans actually prefer Manchurian Puppets for their President. It's just so comforting to have him/her read from teleprompters and give us hope and assurance every night before bed.

With teams of seasoned speech writers, researchers, legal counselors, and PR staff, how could this bus have gone off course? Surely the Russians must have hacked our election machines!

The US government is not a private company. When you become president you have many "lifers" working for you, people who have spent 20+ years in their position, know their stuff and are professional. Anyone who comes to the job with a "my way or the highway" attitude is not suitable.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With teams of seasoned speech writers, researchers, legal counselors, and PR staff, how could this bus have gone off course?

Hey, take heart! We're just living in The Twilight Zone.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey, take heart! We're just living in The Twilight Zone.

A 6 year old kid becomes president?

or

The President alone can see little gremlins working in the press office trying to destroy him?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The US government is not a private company. When you become president you have many "lifers" working for you, people who have spent 20+ years in their position, know their stuff and are professional. Anyone who comes to the job with a "my way or the highway" attitude is not suitable.

Manchurian Puppets have the power of the Press.

Just think about how much Clinton and Obama got away with.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Manchurian Puppets have the power of the Press.

Just think about how much Clinton and Obama got away with.

"look at how badly Trump has been treated", "no politician has ever been treated this bad",

I tell you what, they aren't going to have Trump to kick around for much longer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"look at how badly Trump has been treated", "no politician has ever been treated this bad",

I tell you what, they aren't going to have Trump to kick around for much longer.

I know some lovely "snowflakes" who are more frightened of Mike Pence.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I know some lovely "snowflakes" who are more frightened of Mike Pence.

They better prepare themselves because I expect Trump to resign before the year is out.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They better prepare themselves because I expect Trump to resign before the year is out.

Trump talked tough at the college commencements for the last two days but the events of the past eight days have gotten ahead of him.

On Tuesday 5/10, Trump fired Comey, the man leading the investigation into Trump for his campaign's ties to the Russian government.

On Wednesday 5/11, he welcomed the Russian Foreign Minister and Ambassador into the Oval Office. Russian state media were allowed in. U.S. reporters were not.

On Thursday 5/12, Trump admitted to NBC that "when I decided to [fire Comey], I said to myself -- I said, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story."

On Friday 5/13, he took to Twitter to hint that he had taped his conversations with Comey. The White House refused to deny that he had.

On Sunday 5/14, Trump played golf. (It was Mother's Day.)

On Monday 5/15, the Washington Post reported that Trump shared highly classified intelligence on ISIS with the Russian Foreign Minister in the Oval Office.

On Tuesday 5/16, according to a memo that Comey wrote shortly afterward, Trump asked Comey, to shut down the federal investigation into Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, in an Oval Office meeting in February.

On Wednesday 5/17, Justice Department appoints special prosecutor to investigate Russia, Trump campaign ties.

And bad news for poor Trumpie just keeps on coming. Turmoil over recent Trump controversies triggered the Dow’s biggest loss since September.

Congressional Republicans appeared to be digging in for a long investigation.

If Trump's popularity dips any lower Congressional Republicans will abandon Trump like passengers from a sinking ship.

[ZNPaaneah]

In a statement released by the White House, Trump said: "As I have stated many times, a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know — there was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this matter concluding quickly."

Actually it will determine the answer to many other questions as well.

1. What are the financial ties between Trump, his businesses, and Russian investors?

2. What evidence is there that Trump tried to obstruct justice in the Comey firing?

3. Why did Trump choose Flynn? He had been warned by Obama and Flynn also advised them that he was currently under investigation, so why make this person who was fired your head of NSA and why didn't they vet him?

4. Has Trump lied? Has his administration lied?

5. Are there Whitehouse tapes?

6. Was the firing of Comey, firing of Yates, and undermining of the Justice system in their ruling on his travel ban part of a pattern?

7. Is Trump capable of not talking and following legal advise? There are some very persuasive people very close to Trump painting a picture of a person psychologically unfit. How is he going to respond to the real pressure of this investigation?

The problem Trump has is that there is so much written record of what numerous people surrounding him as well as his own words on these topics. Any investigator would have a field day when questioning people. To make things worse it is hard to see that Trump has any friends. I don't think anyone in the Whitehouse, CIA, FBI or Republican party is going to take a bullet for this guy.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

On Sunday 5/14, Trump played golf. (It was Mother's Day.)

Yes, he played golf on Mother's day while Melania was with Baron and family. They did not spend the day together, but He did wish her a happy Mother's day and we know this for a fact because he did it on Twitter, not just Melania but all mothers.

If this is the life of a billionaire I am very thankful that I am not one.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, he played golf on Mother's day while Melania was with Baron and family. They did not spend the day together, but He did wish her a happy Mother's day and we know this for a fact because he did it on Twitter, not just Melania but all mothers.

If this is the life of a billionaire I am very thankful that I am not one.

Sour grapes?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Sour grapes?

No, everyone has the flesh. Having unlimited money to go with the flesh is a very dangerous combination. Being a billionaire makes it simple to find a young, attractive wife like Melania. But this relationship shows that golden apartment is merely a gilded cage.

I am thankful to the Lord that in His sovereignty He would let the entire country see this. Prior to this Donald Trump portrayed a very different image of a "playboy".

Getting the full view should be good for many who would otherwise be distracted by the love of money.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They better prepare themselves because I expect Trump to resign before the year is out.

‘Art Of The Deal’ Co-Author Tony Schwartz says Trump is in “pure terror” that he’s going to lose.

“There is no right and wrong for Trump, there’s winning and losing,” Tony Schwartz told CNN’s Anderson Cooper.

“I surely believe that at some point over the next period of time he’s going to have to figure out a way to resign,” Schwartz said in comments posted online by Mediaite. But in quitting, Trump will try to “figure out a way, as he has done all his career, to turn a loss into a victory so he will declare victory when he leaves.”

Earlier in the segment Schwartz told Cooper that Trump was “in a pretty significant meltdown.” He added:

“I think he’s reacting from a survival place. I think he’s being run by the part of his brain that’s reactive and impulsive, not capable of reflection and I think he’s in pure defensive mode.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, everyone has the flesh. Having unlimited money to go with the flesh is a very dangerous combination. Being a billionaire makes it simple to find a young, attractive wife like Melania. But this relationship shows that golden apartment is merely a gilded cage.

I am thankful to the Lord that in His sovereignty He would let the entire country see this. Prior to this Donald Trump portrayed a very different image of a "playboy".

Getting the full view should be good for many who would otherwise be distracted by the love of money.

According to your view, isn't God in His sovereignty responsible for every tyrant that ever ruled? I suppose you could find a salutary lesson God was teaching us with every one. Politics becomes the POE.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, he played golf on Mother's day while Melania was with Baron and family. They did not spend the day together, but He did wish her a happy Mother's day and we know this for a fact because he did it on Twitter, not just Melania but all mothers.

If this is the life of a billionaire I am very thankful that I am not one.

I wouldn't read too much into that. Mother's day is not such a big deal. Just another commercial thing. The issue is "he played golf", and does so frequently.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

According to your view, isn't God in His sovereignty responsible for every tyrant that ever ruled? I suppose you could find a salutary lesson God was teaching us with every one. Politics becomes the POE.

They chose to be a tyrant. We have had dictators that were very helpful, built their kingdom, we have had bad dictators, incompetent ones, etc.

Yes God is sovereign, but at some point they closed their ears, ignored God's word and did their own thing. Hence they will reap what they sow.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

‘Art Of The Deal’ Co-Author Tony Schwartz says Trump is in “pure terror” that he’s going to lose.

“There is no right and wrong for Trump, there’s winning and losing,” Tony Schwartz told CNN’s Anderson Cooper.

“I surely believe that at some point over the next period of time he’s going to have to figure out a way to resign,” Schwartz said in comments posted online by Mediaite. But in quitting, Trump will try to “figure out a way, as he has done all his career, to turn a loss into a victory so he will declare victory when he leaves.”

Earlier in the segment Schwartz told Cooper that Trump was “in a pretty significant meltdown.” He added:

“I think he’s reacting from a survival place. I think he’s being run by the part of his brain that’s reactive and impulsive, not capable of reflection and I think he’s in pure defensive mode.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

I think his recent commencement address is the foretaste of his "turning defeat into victory". It isn't that he lost, but rather that the media was very bad to him, worse than they have ever been to any politician since man discovered fire. Blah, Blah, Blah.

No accountability. No admission of his own mistakes. It's not his fault it is going to be someone else's fault.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They chose to be a tyrant. We have had dictators that were very helpful, built their kingdom, we have had bad dictators, incompetent ones, etc.

Yes God is sovereign, but at some point they closed their ears, ignored God's word and did their own thing. Hence they will reap what they sow.

By that reckoning, free choice is sovereign not God. God seems to have abdicated sovereignty when he allowed free choice.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

By that reckoning, free choice is sovereign not God. God seems to have abdicated sovereignty when he allowed free choice.

Why? The US constitution has ultimate authority in this country and it has allowed for "free choice" to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

You have the freedom to speak what you wish in this country, but you can be held accountable for your words and you can be indicted and convicted based on your words.

The bank robber has the freedom to choose to become a bank robber, that doesn't take away the sovereignty of the state to arrest, convict and imprison that bank robber.

[ZNPaaneah]

Trump Tweets:

“This is the single greatest witch hunt of a politician in American history!” Trump tweeted early Thursday. “With all of the illegal acts that took place in the Clinton campaign & Obama Administration, there was never a special counsel appointed!”

What exactly is he saying, does he think that investigating the extent of Russia's hacking of our election is not critical to our national security?

Generally a "witch hunt" involves superstition. There is no "superstition" concerning Russia hacking our election, France's election and other elections. There is no superstition about Flynn being compromised with the Russians. There is no superstition about Trump firing the head of the FBI who was in the midst of investigating his campaign's ties to Russia.

There is a credible eyewitness account that Trump tried to obstruct the investigation prior to firing Comey. There is the pattern of Trump firing Yates and insulting numerous judges to support the idea he would obstruct justice.

So what is he saying, because other criminals were not convicted yet we should overlook his crimes? Is this a confession?

Insulting war hero's is one thing, insulting parents of war hero's is even uglier, but to give secrets to Russia that could endanger the lives of our intelligence sources. This goes beyond reprehensible to dereliction of duty.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why? The US constitution has ultimate authority in this country and it has allowed for "free choice" to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

Should I use my power as the MOTA to change this to the Dec. of Independence?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why? The US constitution has ultimate authority in this country and it has allowed for "free choice" to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

You have the freedom to speak what you wish in this country, but you can be held accountable for your words and you can be indicted and convicted based on your words.

The bank robber has the freedom to choose to become a bank robber, that doesn't take away the sovereignty of the state to arrest, convict and imprison that bank robber.

But, we don't live in an absolute monarchy. Freedom, if it exists, relativizes authority. God cannot logically have absolute authority and allow freedom concurrently. To the degree that we are free, God's sovereignty is limited.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No accountability. No admission of his own mistakes. It's not his fault it is going to be someone else's fault.

See ... that's what we like about Bill and Hillary ... they take ownership for their mistakes and failures instead of blaming others!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Trump Tweets:

“This is the single greatest witch hunt of a politician in American history!” Trump tweeted early Thursday. “With all of the illegal acts that took place in the Clinton campaign & Obama Administration, there was never a special counsel appointed!”

What exactly is he saying, does he think that investigating the extent of Russia's hacking of our election is not critical to our national security?

No, he is saying that Hillary and Obama got away with far worse. Democratic leaders live by another standard that the rest of us.

Not too difficult to understand, is it?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Should I use my power as the MOTA to change this to the Dec. of Independence?

The US constitution lays out the framework for a society that will protect our liberties and allow us to freely pursue them.

The Declaration of Independence is not the final arbiter in the US, it is not the ultimate authority, it is however, our declaration that we are independent of the British Crown.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

But, we don't live in an absolute monarchy. Freedom, if it exists, relativizes authority. God cannot logically have absolute authority and allow freedom concurrently. To the degree that we are free, God's sovereignty is limited.

The final, or ultimate authority in this country is the constitution.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, he is saying that Hillary and Obama got away with far worse. Democratic leaders live by another standard that the rest of us.

Not too difficult to understand, is it?

How can we possibly know who got away with what without a full investigation. What he is saying is that the US is wasting tax payer money on the investigation. But unless he is confessing how could he possibly know where the investigation will lead or what we will learn?

There is plenty to warrant an investigation and we should all be concerned about a foreign power manipulating our election. It is absurd to claim that the investigation is a waste of money and by doing that he has lost any shred of credibility he might have still had.

Latest report: Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

Apparently the purpose was to set up a back channel form of communication.

Israeli officials quoted:
"We have an arrangement with America which is unique to the world of intelligence sharing," said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We do not have this relationship with any other country,"

“To know that this intelligence is shared with others, without our prior knowledge?" he added. "That is, for us, our worst fears confirmed.”

Looks like treason, quacks like treason, leaves bird poop like treason.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

See ... that's what we like about Bill and Hillary ... they take ownership for their mistakes and failures instead of blaming others!

I think I just stepped in sarcasm It certainly smells like it. haha.

I watched Fox off and on lately, and all they keep bringing up is Obama.

Basically, it's the same thing I heard from my kids : "Everyone else is doing it."
.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The US constitution lays out the framework for a society that will protect our liberties and allow us to freely pursue them.

The Declaration of Independence is not the final arbiter in the US, it is not the ultimate authority, it is however, our declaration that we are independent of the British Crown.

And it says we have rights to pursue "Life, Liberty, and Happiness." That statement is absent in the constitution.

Easy mistake. Surprisingly, some in our founding days considered the Declaration to be more authoritative than the constitution.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

And it says we have rights to pursue "Life, Liberty, and Happiness." That statement is absent in the constitution.

Easy mistake. Surprisingly, some in our founding days considered the Declaration to be more authoritative than the constitution.

How exactly would you legislate the right to pursue life? It is enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

We pursued liberty by fighting the revolutionary war.

We pursue happiness with our laws, economy, and political structure in place along with our freedoms.

The declaration is just that, a declaration. The constitution is just that, our constitution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How can we possibly know who got away with what without a full investigation. What he is saying is that the US is wasting tax payer money on the investigation. But unless he is confessing how could he possibly know where the investigation will lead or what we will learn?

No, Trump is saying that Dem leaders get away with far more serious crimes.

There is plenty to warrant an investigation and we should all be concerned about a foreign power manipulating our election. It is absurd to claim that the investigation is a waste of money and by doing that he has lost any shred of credibility he might have still had.

It is readily known that the DNC manipulated our election. Just ask Bernie's people. Bernie, however, got his vacation home on the lake, so he has been paid off.

Latest report: Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

Apparently the purpose was to set up a back channel form of communication.

Israeli officials quoted:
"We have an arrangement with America which is unique to the world of intelligence sharing," said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We do not have this relationship with any other country,"

“To know that this intelligence is shared with others, without our prior knowledge?" he added. "That is, for us, our worst fears confirmed.”

Looks like treason, quacks like treason, leaves bird poop like treason.

JFK and RFK averted nuclear war with a back channel form of communication, and they were heroes. But with Trump it is treason.

Why don't you get upset with all those felonious leakers in the DNC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How exactly would you legislate the right to pursue life? It is enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

We pursued liberty by fighting the revolutionary war.

We pursue happiness with our laws, economy, and political structure in place along with our freedoms.

The declaration is just that, a declaration. The constitution is just that, our constitution.

By overturning Roe.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, Trump is saying that Dem leaders get away with far more serious crimes.

Trump says a lot that seems to contradict what he has said before. I suppose in 40 or 50 years we may know a lot more about the truth of what he has said, but I can't possibly view him as a credible witness at this point. I see this comment as self serving and immature.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is readily known that the DNC manipulated our election. Just ask Bernie's people. Bernie, however, got his vacation home on the lake, so he has been paid off.

Absolutely disgusted by the DNC. However, it is also well known that we discovered this due to the Russian Hack and they presented it in the worst light possible. If Bernie had been the Democratic nominee instead of Clinton I would have voted for him. For me it is not about policy, I would have also voted for Kasich. My concern is with the person who will be in this position, can I trust him or her. I did not trust Clinton or Trump, so I declined to vote for either one. However, I have voted in all previous presidential elections and there were two candidates out of the final 5 that I would have voted for. So then my standards are not so high, as long as you aren't a liar and a fraud.

Originally Posted by Ohio

JFK and RFK averted nuclear war with a back channel form of communication, and they were heroes. But with Trump it is treason.

Why don't you get upset with all those felonious leakers in the DNC?

I was upset with them, why do you say I wasn't?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By overturning Roe.

Overturning Roe would not be legislating. The proper ruling based on the Constitution would be to turn this matter over to the States.

I think it would be a disaster to legislate a law outlawing abortion. Just as Blackmun's ruling was a disaster. All that Blackmun has accomplished is to outrage and divide America in half.

If Nevada chose to make abortions legal whereas Mississippi voted to make them illegal and Missouri came up with some kind of compromise legislation I could live with that. I would participate in the NY legislation and if I was outraged by it I would move to a State I agreed with.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Overturning Roe would not be legislating. The proper ruling based on the Constitution would be to turn this matter over to the States.

I think it would be a disaster to legislate a law outlawing abortion. Just as Blackmun's ruling was a disaster. All that Blackmun has accomplished is to outrage and divide America in half.

If Nevada chose to make abortions legal whereas Mississippi voted to make them illegal and Missouri came up with some kind of compromise legislation I could live with that. I would participate in the NY legislation and if I was outraged by it I would move to a State I agreed with.

Overturning Roe IS to turn the matter over to the States.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Overturning Roe IS to turn the matter over to the States.

That would be a great victory.

[zeek]

Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

The interactions had previously been kept secret by the campaign but are now being reviewed as part of the FBI and congressional investigation into Trump's relationship with Russia.

Conversations between members of Trump's team and high-ranking officials including setting up a special backchannel for communications between the President and Putin, Reuters reported. That would allow the two talk without involving US national security officials.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7742231.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

The interactions had previously been kept secret by the campaign but are now being reviewed as part of the FBI and congressional investigation into Trump's relationship with Russia.

Conversations between members of Trump's team and high-ranking officials including setting up a special backchannel for communications between the President and Putin, Reuters reported. That would allow the two talk without involving US national security officials.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7742231.html

I expect them to do a thorough investigation. One question I would ask is how many times did they contact other countries? That would give us a point of comparison, it would also find out if other countries are also involved. Suppose they discover that large campaign donations came from some other countries, that would be very relevant. For all we know this is the tip of the iceberg, everyone is guilty and Trump merely got caught.

If you were concerned about National security, ethics violations, criminal violations then this investigation is the very best thing. Yet interestingly those who were voicing the most concern a week ago now seem more focused on what else might be uncovered rather than resolving these concerns.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

JFK and RFK averted nuclear war with a back channel form of communication, and they were heroes. But with Trump it is treason.

Yeah, Trump needed a back channel while campaigning ... for them to help him undo Hilliary.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, Trump needed a back channel while campaigning ... for them to help him undo Hilliary.

Since you are also a mugwump "independent,' why don't you also tell us about all the diverse back channels Hillary had into the DNC, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, NYT, WaPo, etc. while campaigning and debating in order to undo Bernie Sanders, who btw is also "independent."

At least then you would be posting some facts and not be peddling speculations.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since you are also a mugwump "independent,' why don't you also tell us about all the diverse back channels Hillary had into the DNC, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, NYT, WaPo, etc. while campaigning and debating in order to undo Bernie Sanders, who btw is also "independent."

At least then you would be posting some facts and not be peddling speculations.

But the Hildabeast is not president. Lock 'em both up. In fact, lock 'em all up ... going back to Reagan ... with his Iran-Contra affair, and selling of crack on the streets of L.A..

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How can we possibly know who got away with what without a full investigation. What he is saying is that the US is wasting tax payer money on the investigation. But unless he is confessing how could he possibly know where the investigation will lead or what we will learn?

There is plenty to warrant an investigation and we should all be concerned about a foreign power manipulating our election. It is absurd to claim that the investigation is a waste of money and by doing that he has lost any shred of credibility he might have still had.

Latest report: Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

Apparently the purpose was to set up a back channel form of communication.

Israeli officials quoted:
"We have an arrangement with America which is unique to the world of intelligence sharing," said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We do not have this relationship with any other country,"

“To know that this intelligence is shared with others, without our prior knowledge?" he added. "That is, for us, our worst fears confirmed.”

Looks like treason, quacks like treason, leaves bird poop like treason.

So today we see the results of his consulting with lawyers. They aren't going to dispute Comey's memos, instead they are going to argue that as President Trump was trying to work with Russia and Comey's investigation was damaging that and his inability to see that demonstrated he was a "nut".

Just like James said, the rich drag you into court, sue you, rip you off, slander you, etc. If you have a backbone to stand up for the truth and rule of law, then they will fire you because of a "character issue" (i.e. you have one).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the Hildabeast is not president. Lock 'em both up. In fact, lock 'em all up ... going back to Reagan ... with his Iran-Contra affair, and selling of crack on the streets of L.A..

They had fake news back in the 80's?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They had fake news back in the 80's?

Fake news began in 1475 when a Catholic priest preached that a missing two year old child had been kidnapped by the Jews who drained his blood to celebrate Passover. One of the key perpetrators of the "blood libel" was canonized "Saint Simon".

Fake news has been around since the invention of the printing press.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They had fake news back in the 80's?

Yes. Most of what we believe about Saint Reagan today is fake news.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Donald Trump's campaign made contact with Russia at least 18 times during his presidential race, according to a new report.

The interactions had previously been kept secret by the campaign but are now being reviewed as part of the FBI and congressional investigation into Trump's relationship with Russia.

When Does All That Evidence of Collusion Arrive?

Even the radical Dems, like fEinstein and Mad Maxine from CalyFornia, are admitting that they have NOT seen ANY evidence of Trump colluding with the Commies.

Uh-oh, that's not good, but let's not let the lack of evidence get in the way of a Good Coup, so we'll just change the story, and the accusations, again!

ComeyGate! Just like WaterGate! The downfall of another Republican president!!! We got him this time! How dare he fire that guy who cost Hillary the election.

When that one doesn't work, we'll have another waiting in the wings.

How about Burkagate? Sounds terrible! -- "Melania Trump offends 2 billion Muslams by disrespecting Muhammud and refusing to wear a burka in Saudi Arabia."

Or perhaps TextGate -- "Anonymous sources REVEAL Trump got numerous TEXTS from Huma's Ex while living in NYC!" OMG! "And Malania files for divorce the same day."

NYTimes HeadLine news for weeks!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Most of what we believe about Saint Reagan today is fake news.

Great strategy.

Canonize Reagan.

Accuse him of selling crack on the street corners of CalyFornia.

Tar and feather him in effigy for being such a darn hypocrite!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great strategy.

Canonize Reagan.

Accuse him of selling crack on the street corners of CalyFornia.

Tar and feather him in effigy for being such a darn hypocrite!

I didn't canonize Reagan. I picked it up from republican friends, family, and Fox News.

And yes, the CIA was involved in Contra cocaine trafficking under Reagan. Look it up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't canonize Reagan. I picked it up from republican friends, family, and Fox News.

And yes, the CIA was involved in Contra cocaine trafficking under Reagan. Look it.

Huh? But you did! You called him "Saint Reagan!"

And now you are also back-peddling on your fake news story about Reagan selling crack on the streets of LA?

[awareness]

Russia meeting revelation could trigger obstruction investigation
President Donald Trump’s Oval Office boast to Russian officials will almost certainly prompt a more immediate legal development.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...igation-238639

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh? But you did! You called him "Saint Reagan!"

And now you are also back-peddling on your fake news story about Reagan selling crack on the streets of LA?

I thought it had been confirmed that the Iran Contra scandal included the CIA importing (crack?) cocaine to the streets of LA? Hasn't that been confirmed? Even if Reagan was unaware of what was happening he was still the President and the Iran Contra scandal was run out of the Whitehouse (VP)

[Evangelical]

Trump said things about Obama's wife not wearing a head covering, and now his wife does the same thing. I think the media is pointing out the hypocrisy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh? But you did! You called him "Saint Reagan!"

And now you are also back-peddling on your fake news story about Reagan selling crack on the streets of LA?

So you don't like saint Reagan too? Or is it you just don't like him being called a saint cuz of your Catholic upbringing?

And of course Reagan himself didn't sell drugs on the street He had Oliver North do it, and then said he forgot.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump said things about Obama's wife not wearing a head covering, and now his wife does the same thing. I think the media is pointing out the hypocrisy.

Obviously it's wrong when a black first lady does it, but right when a white one does it.

But all that is chump change compared to Trump's obstruction of the investigation into Russia ties.

First Comey, and now Mueller. Trump's trying to use the Code of Federal Regulations, which restricts newly hired government lawyers from investigating their prior law firm’s clients for one year after their hiring. Trump EO'd it to two years.

And Mueller’s former law firm, WilmerHale, represents Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, who met with a Russian bank executive in December, and the president’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who is a subject of a federal investigation.

Is Trump really so stupid as to not realize that the more he obstructs the more he will be investigated?

It just makes him evermore to look guilty.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you don't like saint Reagan too? Or is it you just don't like him being called a saint cuz of your Catholic upbringing?

And of course Reagan himself didn't sell drugs on the street He had Oliver North do it, and then said he forgot.

Yer a funny guy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Obviously it's wrong when a black first lady does it, but right when a white one does it.

But all that is chump change compared to Trump's obstruction of the investigation into Russia ties.

First Comey, and now Mueller. Trump's trying to use the Code of Federal Regulations, which restricts newly hired government lawyers from investigating their prior law firm’s clients for one year after their hiring. Trump EO'd it to two years.

And Mueller’s former law firm, WilmerHale, represents Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, who met with a Russian bank executive in December, and the president’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who is a subject of a federal investigation.

Is Trump really so stupid as to not realize that the more he obstructs the more he will be investigated?

It just makes him evermore to look guilty.

One day Trump will be gone, and you''ll be able to.start your party.

Oh what a happy day!!!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One day Trump will be gone, and you''ll be able to.start your party.

Oh what a happy day!!!!

Yeah, Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson will beat him, with Tom Hanks as his running mate.

Party time!!! As in, what party?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Obviously it's wrong when a black first lady does it, but right when a white one does it.

But all that is chump change compared to Trump's obstruction of the investigation into Russia ties.

First Comey, and now Mueller. Trump's trying to use the Code of Federal Regulations, which restricts newly hired government lawyers from investigating their prior law firm’s clients for one year after their hiring. Trump EO'd it to two years.

And Mueller’s former law firm, WilmerHale, represents Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, who met with a Russian bank executive in December, and the president’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who is a subject of a federal investigation.

Is Trump really so stupid as to not realize that the more he obstructs the more he will be investigated?

It just makes him evermore to look guilty.

Because black people are supposed to wear head coverings. They are all Muslim aren't they, even if they say they are Christian. White women with head coverings just doesn't work. Because white women are Christians. Actually I think Trump's wife needs a full burqa to cover her sour puss face. Being married to Trump will do that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because black people are supposed to wear head coverings. They are all Muslim aren't they, even if they say they are Christian. White women with head coverings just doesn't work. Because white women are Christians. Actually I think Trump's wife needs a full burqa to cover her sour puss face. Being married to Trump will do that.

EvanGelly careful now, we got a place for you to stay ...

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

EvanGelly careful now, we got a place for you to stay ...

That's a good one Ohio

[awareness]

More cover up and more obstruction :

Now Trump plans to set up a 'war room' in the White House to battle Robert Mueller probe - and bring back controversial aide Corey Lewandowski to run it
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-war-room.html

[awareness]

Here it is so far. Look at all the links so far, and investigation just beginning:

The Russia investigation: Everything you need to know
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/26/politi...-what-to-know/

[Evangelical]

And to think this is all because of Rosie O'Donnell.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

And to think this is all because of Rosie O'Donnell.

And all his supporters -- those deplorables -- who he now seems to hate. They were losers to him before his campaign, then his winners, and now back to losers again.

[Ohio]

After watching most of Comey's answers before the Senate Intelligence Panel yesterday, and looking back on several notable events in his career, I am now convinced that he is little more than a political hack disguising himself as a brilliant and persuasive public servant. Now we know that Comey was a deep state leaker from the getgo, a disgruntled former employee, and was plotting for his chance to take down Trump. He is as much a "criminal" as Flynn.

He also confirmed all my views about Trump, that he is a dynamic, yet impulsive "bully" with good intentions for our country.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After watching most of Comey's answers before the Senate Intelligence Panel yesterday, and looking back on several notable events in his career, I am convinced that he is little more than a political hack disguising himself as a brilliant and persuasive public servant.

He also confirmed all my views about Trump, that he is a dynamic, yet impulsive "bully" with good intentions for our country.

That may be true. But he's got inside info that prolly wasn't all told even in the closed door meeting with the senators. So he's way more than we can see, and for that reason we really can't know who or what he is without jumping to conclusions. As they say, time will tell. Maybe, in 80 years, when the top secret info is released ... way after we're gone ... and them too ... when nothing can be done about any of it ... including any laws that were broken ... or are being broken today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That may be true. But he's got inside info that prolly wasn't all told even in the closed door meeting with the senators. So he's way more than we can see, and for that reason we really can't know who or what he is without jumping to conclusions. As they say, time will tell. Maybe, in 80 years, when the top secret info is released ... way after we're gone ... and them too ... when nothing can be done about any of it ... including any laws that were broken ... or are being broken today.

Yeah, you're right.

All of our liberal politicians, intelligentsia, and media folks are demonstrably appalled that the Trump camp would have contacts with the Russians, unless, of course, it was with their own Obama and Hillary operatives, who did the same things regularly.

Putin and comrades are just whooping it up sipping the best Vodka and cheering on their Obama connections.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yeah, you're right.

All of our liberal politicians, intelligentsia, and media folks are demonstrably appalled that the Trump camp would have contacts with the Russians, unless, of course, it was with their own Obama and Hillary operatives, who did the same things regularly.

Putin and comrades are just whooping it up sipping the best Vodka and cheering on their Obama connections.

Actually Putin said that hackers are independent artist types, who wake up just to hack. And he can't control what they do. That's plausible denial for what?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by awareness

Actually Putin said that hackers are independent artist types, who wake up just to hack. And he can't control what they do. That's plausible denial for what?

And Reality Winner exposed what? What was that about Russian military hackers?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And Reality Winner exposed what? What was that about Russian military hackers?

Who names their kid Reality Winner?

This is why the NSA should be shut down. The monumental idiocy of leaker Reality Leigh Winner.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who names their kid Reality Winner?

This is why the NSA should be shut down. The monumental idiocy of leaker Reality Leigh Winner.

Comey continually testified that the Russians were very active in our recent election process.

What he never informed us, conveniently I'm sure, is which side they favored and why.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Comey continually testified that the Russians were very active in our recent election process.

What he never informed us, conveniently I'm sure, is which side they favored and why.

We'll know that on a need to know basis only.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

We'll know that on a need to know basis only.

That's a "leaky" way to learn amything.

When listening to Comey word for word, he seems far more credible than Trump.

But then I remember my old adage -- not to pay attention to what politicians say, but rather what they do. Comparing last years' conclusion on Hillary, to this years' statements on Trump, Comey's politics become extremely obvious.

Comey read a litany of felonious actions by Hillary, and then abruptly concluded the investigation saying no "reasonable" prosecutor would indict her. Thus he smeared thousands of prosecutors around the country as "unreasonable."

His vast team of investigators have yet to find one shred of evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians, yet Comey continues to mastermind a network of leakers to smear Trump and keep the investigation open.

Obviously poor naive Reality Winner was only following the examples of her many superiors by leaking classified documents. They, however, get those golden parachutes. She gets an orange jumpsuit.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's a "leaky" way to learn amything.

When listening to Comey word for word, he seems far more credible than Trump.

But then I remember my old adage -- not to pay attention to what politicians say, but rather what they do. Comparing last years' conclusion on Hillary, to this years' statements on Trump, Comey's politics become extremely obvious.

Comey read a litany of felonious actions by Hillary, and then abruptly concluded the investigation saying no "reasonable" prosecutor would indict her. Thus he smeared thousands of prosecutors around the country as "unreasonable."

His vast team of investigators have yet to find one shred of evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians, yet Comey continues to mastermind a network of leakers to smear Trump and keep the investigation open.

Obviously poor naive Reality Winner was only following the examples of her many superiors by leaking classified documents. They, however, get those golden parachutes. She gets an orange jumpsuit.

Right on bro Ohio. And then there's Robert Mueller.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously poor naive Reality Winner was only following the examples of her many superiors by leaking classified documents. They, however, get those golden parachutes. She gets an orange jumpsuit.

I haven't paid attention other than just the briefest overview. From what I understand she released the information that the Russians were trying (or maybe were successful) to hack the voting machine software to influence/rig/damage US elections. This information was leaked at a time the official line was that the Russians had not violated the sanctity of our election process.

Other than exposing the official line as a lie, did she reveal state secrets or put intelligence sources at risk?

Since the threat continues and presumably gets more and more likely of Russian success it seems one benefit of this leak is to make all Americans more aware and more serious about this threat to democracy.

If you could explain the real damage she has done or potentially done to our national security through this leak that would help me get a more balanced view of what has happened. Thanks

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right on bro Ohio. And then there's Robert Mueller.

You do realize that any Russian interference or collusion in our presidential election impugns Obama and the Democrats more than anyone. They were in power, they were entrusted to protect the sanctity of the process. If Mueller finds evidence of Russian influence it will be the fault of the Democrats, not Republicans, and if he doesn't then he cannot possibly prove Obstruction of Justice.

Second, if you are going to prove obstruction you must take Comey's testimony as credible. But, if you do that it also impugns the AG under Obama for politicizing the investigation of Clinton.

There is no way that Mueller's investigation can prove that Trump is the bad guy, rather it can only prove that our entire system is very corrupt, which ironically is why people voted for Trump. If Mueller is able to prove that our system is very corrupt, a highly probably possibility, then ironically it could go a long way towards "draining the swamp".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You do realize that any Russian interference or collusion in our presidential election impugns Obama and the Democrats more than anyone. They were in power, they were entrusted to protect the sanctity of the process. If Mueller finds evidence of Russian influence it will be the fault of the Democrats, not Republicans, and if he doesn't then he cannot possibly prove Obstruction of Justice.

Second, if you are going to prove obstruction you must take Comey's testimony as credible. But, if you do that it also impugns the AG under Obama for politicizing the investigation of Clinton.

There is no way that Mueller's investigation can prove that Trump is the bad guy, rather it can only prove that our entire system is very corrupt, which ironically is why people voted for Trump. If Mueller is able to prove that our system is very corrupt, a highly probably possibility, then ironically it could go a long way towards "draining the swamp".

ZNP, I'm glad you're back!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You do realize that any Russian interference or collusion in our presidential election impugns Obama and the Democrats more than anyone.

And your point is? Are you saying if there was outside interference we should cover it up to protect Obama et al? Bahahahaha ... if so let 'em all take the fall, including Trump. We're not America if we allow outside state nations to influence our elections. And then our representatives won't be ours and won't be representing us. It doesn't matter to me at all, whose finger prints are on this.

Originally Posted by ZNP

They were in power, they were entrusted to protect the sanctity of the process.

Y'all do know, I presume, what they say about power?

Originally Posted by ZNP

If Mueller finds evidence of Russian influence it will be the fault of the Democrats, not Republicans, and if he doesn't then he cannot possibly prove Obstruction of Justice.

Again what's your point? Prolly, if this is true, there will be fingerprints of some from both parties on it.

Originally Posted by ZNP

Second, if you are going to prove obstruction you must take Comey's testimony as credible. But, if you do that it also impugns the AG under Obama for politicizing the investigation of Clinton.

Now you're finally getting it.

Originally Posted by ZNP

There is no way that Mueller's investigation can prove that Trump is the bad guy, . . .

Trump is a doofus. Like Paul Ryan recently pointed out, Trump doesn't know how to run the government. Running the government is not like running a business. Trump is just bumbling around, tweeting at 3am, and putting his hand on the orb ... like Mr. Magoo.

Originally Posted by ZNP

. . . rather it can only prove that our entire system is very corrupt

We I can see that you have your eyes open. So you're not a die hard partisan.

I'm pissed off. I'm really getting tired of others pushing on me to be of a particular political party. I don't want to be of any party, unless they have a membership of only one.

But that's just me, obviously. Seems everyone else has to tribe up, one way or another. I guess it makes us feel like we belong to something. And we owe the present success of the human race to living in tribes. But that was then and this is now. Tribalism has become a problem now. Look at Washington ; two enemy tribes. And the result is FUBAR.

Originally Posted by Z

which ironically is why people voted for Trump. If Mueller is able to prove that our system is very corrupt, a highly probably possibility, then ironically it could go a long way towards "draining the swamp".

So Trump bumbles his way into keeping a campaign promise ... but don't look great doing it. Poor Saint Trump.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump is a doofus. Like Paul Ryan recently pointed out, Trump doesn't know how to run the government. Running the government is not like running a business. Trump is just bumbling around, tweeting at 3am, and putting his hand on the orb ... like Mr. Magoo.

For me, these statements are so full of contradictions. Trump is a doofus??? He is an immensely talented business man who wants to bring real change to WashDC. Obviously the MSM seizes on his every misstep, smothers it with fake news, adds lies and innuendos, injects fear-mongering on their 24 hour news cycle, covers the mess with their false "outrage," and broadcasts the nonsense for human consumption. So what if things get a little messy if the country is moving in the right direction? Have you ever taken one of those "swamp" tours?

Obviously you preferred the last guy in the white house whose only job was "community organizing." How about we give the guy a chance. The MSM gushed over him long before his 8 years even started.

What WashDC needs most is successful business men. Perhaps a bunch of doctors too. Does anyone else think we have had far too many lawyers running things? Didn't you say that 99.4% of the lawyers give the rest of them a bad name?

I was thinking about getting a "Covfefe" coffee mug because to me here is a guy who stays up too late communicating to the American people, and then falls asleep during his last "tweet."

[Ohio]

Listen to Judge Jeanine Pirro on Director Comey and his testimony before the Senate Intelligence. She brings out dozens of facts pertinent to the investigation.
Here comes the Judge!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For me, these statements are so full of contradictions. Trump is a doofus??? He is an immensely talented business man who wants to bring real change to WashDC. Obviously the MSM seizes on his every misstep, smothers it with fake news, adds lies and innuendos, injects fear-mongering on their 24 hour news cycle, covers the mess with their false "outrage," and broadcasts the nonsense for human consumption. So what if things get a little messy if the country is moving in the right direction? Have you ever taken one of those "swamp" tours?

Obviously you preferred the last guy in the white house whose only job was "community organizing." How about we give the guy a chance. The MSM gushed over him long before his 8 years even started.

What WashDC needs most is successful business men. Perhaps a bunch of doctors too. Does anyone else think we have had far too many lawyers running things? Didn't you say that 99.4% of the lawyers give the rest of them a bad name?

I was thinking about getting a "Covfefe" coffee mug because to me here is a guy who stays up too late communicating to the American people, and then falls asleep during his last "tweet."

Pretty funny bro Ohio. I sure would like to see covfefe great again. So far it's been in pretty bad shape.

And I think lawyers should only be allowed in the judicial branch of government.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

And your point is? Are you saying if there was outside interference we should cover it up to protect Obama et al? Bahahahaha ... if so let 'em all take the fall, including Trump. We're not America if we allow outside state nations to influence our elections. And then our representatives won't be ours and won't be representing us. It doesn't matter to me at all, whose finger prints are on this.


Y'all do know, I presume, what they say about power?


Again what's your point? Prolly, if this is true, there will be fingerprints of some from both parties on it.


Now you're finally getting it.


Trump is a doofus. Like Paul Ryan recently pointed out, Trump doesn't know how to run the government. Running the government is not like running a business. Trump is just bumbling around, tweeting at 3am, and putting his hand on the orb ... like Mr. Magoo.


We I can see that you have your eyes open. So you're not a die hard partisan.

I'm pissed off. I'm really getting tired of others pushing on me to be of a particular political party. I don't want to be of any party, unless they have a membership of only one.

But that's just me, obviously. Seems everyone else has to tribe up, one way or another. I guess it makes us feel like we belong to something. And we owe the present success of the human race to living in tribes. But that was then and this is now. Tribalism has become a problem now. Look at Washington ; two enemy tribes. And the result is FUBAR.


So Trump bumbles his way into keeping a campaign promise ... but don't look great doing it. Poor Saint Trump.

Reminds me of Samson slaying a bunch of people with the jawbone of an ass.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For me, these statements are so full of contradictions. Trump is a doofus??? He is an immensely talented business man who wants to bring real change to WashDC. Obviously the MSM seizes on his every misstep, smothers it with fake news, adds lies and innuendos, injects fear-mongering on their 24 hour news cycle, covers the mess with their false "outrage," and broadcasts the nonsense for human consumption. So what if things get a little messy if the country is moving in the right direction? Have you ever taken one of those "swamp" tours?

Obviously you preferred the last guy in the white house whose only job was "community organizing." How about we give the guy a chance. The MSM gushed over him long before his 8 years even started.

What WashDC needs most is successful business men. Perhaps a bunch of doctors too. Does anyone else think we have had far too many lawyers running things? Didn't you say that 99.4% of the lawyers give the rest of them a bad name?

I was thinking about getting a "Covfefe" coffee mug because to me here is a guy who stays up too late communicating to the American people, and then falls asleep during his last "tweet."

This whole fake news began with LBJ and Nixon. LBJ spread false stories and bold faced lies, knowing that his opponent didn't have the money or the inclination to stoop to his level.

Nixon used innuendo and implied his opponent was a communist based on selectively picking items from his record while ignoring the vast body of work on his resume.

Both were expert in the use of "fake news". Had we dealt with them everyone else would have been afraid to imitate them, but instead we shrugged. As a result we have gone down this rabbit hole and this is where we are after 40+ years.

[awareness]

“When he tells you to do something, guess what? There’s no ambiguity in it, there’s no, ‘Hey, I’m hoping,’” Donald Trump Jr. told Pirro on Saturday. “You and I are friends: ‘Hey, I hope this happens, but you’ve got to do your job.’ That’s what he told Comey.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This whole fake news began with LBJ and Nixon. LBJ spread false stories and bold faced lies, knowing that his opponent didn't have the money or the inclination to stoop to his level.

Nixon used innuendo and implied his opponent was a communist based on selectively picking items from his record while ignoring the vast body of work on his resume.

Both were expert in the use of "fake news". Had we dealt with them everyone else would have been afraid to imitate them, but instead we shrugged. As a result we have gone down this rabbit hole and this is where we are after 40+ years.

Lee Harvey Oswald, Sirhan Bishara Sirhan, and James Earl Ray were the epitome of fake news. Scapegoats apparently need 3 names to be "legitimized."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm pissed off. I'm really getting tired of others pushing on me to be of a particular political party. I don't want to be of any party, unless they have a membership of only one.

Now, now, bro what troubleth thee?

And btw who is pushing on you? Aren't you the MODA -- Moderator of Da Age? Who can push you around? Aren't you Alt-views director?

With all your mighty powers, you are starting to sound like that wimpy "victim of sorts" James Comey, who got his feelings hurt by Donny Orange Crush. Perhaps like Comey you have merely become "mildly nauseous with that queasy feeling, being so ... stunned, shocked and troubled, causing a whole lot of personal pain."

Life is tough being at the top. I just can't help seeing you and Jimmy whining together, with the thought that the two of you just look like a Democrat, walk like a Democrat, and talk like a Democrat, but neither is willing to admit it. Oh well.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now, now, bro what troubleth thee?

And btw who is pushing on you? Aren't you the MODA -- Moderator of Da Age? Who can push you around? Aren't you Alt-views director?

With all your mighty powers, you are starting to sound like that wimpy "victim of sorts" James Comey, who got his feelings hurt by Donny Orange Crush. Perhaps like Comey you have merely become "mildly nauseous with that queasy feeling, being so ... stunned, shocked and troubled, causing a whole lot of personal pain."

Life is tough being at the top. I just can't help seeing you and Jimmy whining together, with the thought that the two of you just look like a Democrat, walk like a Democrat, and talk like a Democrat, but neither is willing to admit it. Oh well.

See ... SEEE ... you couldn't help but push me into the democrat camp. My yellow dog democrat sister bemoans that I'm not one of her. Face it bro Ohio, I know you seem to have a need to pighole everyone into one party or the other (black or white) but I'm a misfit. You can be part of the log jam if you like, supporting getting nothing done, but not me.

[awareness]

This is for my hard right brother:

How Democrats Help Big Pharma Keep Drug Prices High
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/how-de...ug-prices-high

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

We're not America if we allow outside state nations to influence our elections. And then our representatives won't be ours and won't be representing us. It doesn't matter to me at all, whose finger prints are on this.

I have a crazy idea but it might be the solution to all of this - make "meddling" legal and sanctioned and open, plain to see. If meddling already happens anyway, and millions of non-Americans (illegal)s voted anyway (according to Trump), there is really not much to lose - what's the difference?

Then also the size and scale of meddling could be measured. What if everyone in the world had a chance to vote in the American elections? Would that not be a better outcome for all? Then Trump or Hillary would not be in power but someone better and chosen by all people in the world.

I think if globalization is good for trade etc then its also good for politics. Why not open up the election to allow non-Americans to vote for the leader.

Take a vote from each country, like they do in Eurovision, to choose the winner. Americans could also vote in other elections of other countries in a similar way.

I think if more people vote from around the world it will better represent a true democracy and lead to a better outcome. Surveys get more accurate with sample size, so the outcome of a worldwide election, which is basically just a big worldwide survey, would be more accurate.

I think if every human has a basic human right to vote, then I cannot see why that cannot be extended to non-Americans to exercise their human right and vote for the American president.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

See ... SEEE ... you couldn't help but push me into the democrat camp. My yellow dog democrat sister bemoans that I'm not one of her. Face it bro Ohio, I know you seem to have a need to pighole everyone into one party or the other (black or white) but I'm a misfit. You can be part of the log jam if you like, supporting getting nothing done, but not me.

I have a need? Perhaps you are in denial? Perhaps you just like to argue with sis?

getting nothing done? Are you referring to congress?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I have a crazy idea but it might be the solution to all of this - make "meddling" legal and sanctioned and open, plain to see. If meddling already happens anyway, and millions of non-Americans (illegal)s voted anyway (according to Trump), there is really not much to lose - what's the difference?

Then also the size and scale of meddling could be measured. What if everyone in the world had a chance to vote in the American elections? Would that not be a better outcome for all? Then Trump or Hillary would not be in power but someone better and chosen by all people in the world.

I think if globalization is good for trade etc then its also good for politics. Why not open up the election to allow non-Americans to vote for the leader.

Take a vote from each country, like they do in Eurovision, to choose the winner. Americans could also vote in other elections of other countries in a similar way.

I think if more people vote from around the world it will better represent a true democracy and lead to a better outcome. Surveys get more accurate with sample size, so the outcome of a worldwide election, which is basically just a big worldwide survey, would be more accurate.

I think if every human has a basic human right to vote, then I cannot see why that cannot be extended to non-Americans to exercise their human right and vote for the American president.

Yeah, say that evil is good and good is evil. Just live by the golden rule (he who has the gold makes the rules). I think this idea of yours is an old idea and has already been critiqued by God and the prophets.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[/B]
I have a need? Perhaps you are in denial? Perhaps you just like to argue with sis?

getting nothing done? Are you referring to congress?

Which one of you is the stuffed tiger?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I have a crazy idea but it might be the solution to all of this - make "meddling" legal and sanctioned and open, plain to see. If meddling already happens anyway, and millions of non-Americans (illegal)s voted anyway (according to Trump), there is really not much to lose - what's the difference?

Then also the size and scale of meddling could be measured. What if everyone in the world had a chance to vote in the American elections? Would that not be a better outcome for all? Then Trump or Hillary would not be in power but someone better and chosen by all people in the world.

I think if globalization is good for trade etc then its also good for politics. Why not open up the election to allow non-Americans to vote for the leader.

Take a vote from each country, like they do in Eurovision, to choose the winner. Americans could also vote in other elections of other countries in a similar way.

I think if more people vote from around the world it will better represent a true democracy and lead to a better outcome. Surveys get more accurate with sample size, so the outcome of a worldwide election, which is basically just a big worldwide survey, would be more accurate.

I think if every human has a basic human right to vote, then I cannot see why that cannot be extended to non-Americans to exercise their human right and vote for the American president.

Good idea bro Evan. We could add Russia, China, India, Germany, France, England, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, et al, to our Electoral College ... Iran too (eek to all of 'em really). Sure we'd have to limit China, and India, to keep them from being the deciders, but we could make it work, surely ... we're the greatest. And we could become the world center ; leader of a New World Order ... Poof!!! We're great again!!! Yea Saint Trump!

Never mind that old drag McCain ... who says America was better under Obama (some say Dubya). What does that old captured failure know? McCain is just a RINO. Don't listen to him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good idea bro Evan. We could add Russia, China, India, Germany, France, England, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, et al, to our Electoral College ... Iran too (eek to all of 'em really).

You left out Australia.

Never mind that old drag McCain ... who says America was better under Obama (some say Dubya). What does that old captured failure know? McCain is just a RINO. Don't listen to him.

He just stayed up too late watching the baseball game.

Trump may "sleep-tweet" a little nonsense in the middle of the night, but McCain says it at senate hearings in broad daylight.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You left out Australia.

And 186 other countries, that were included in the et al ; A New World Order ... or disorder, prolly.

[awareness]

The attorneys general of Maryland and Washington, D.C., said Monday they will seek President Trump’s tax returns in a lawsuit over foreign payments to his D.C.-based hotel.

Maryland Attorney General Brian Frosh said he and his D.C. counterpart, Karl Racine, will seek Trump’s personal financial information — including his tax returns — in a lawsuit alleging the president has committed “unprecedented constitutional violations.”
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/33...er-trump-hotel

[ZNPaaneah]

One thing that I find very puzzling, the whole issue of the tapes. Is there any good reason to not just answer yes or no? Surely Trump knows if his conversations are taped. If he comes out now and says no he appears like the biggest jerk. On the other hand if he says yes then why wait? It would have been much more powerful to respond to Comey's testimony by releasing the tapes. Is he trying to destroy the tapes? That is going to blow up in his face. So I don't get it.

The other thing I find interesting is if Sessions will claim executive privilege. On one hand the WH is complaining about all the hubbub of the media, the best way to put a stop to it is to simply answer the questions. But if they claim executive privilege this will go on for months as they legislate every single question and whether or not Sessions has the right to executive privilege.

Trump has complete power to put an end very quickly to all the speculation -- release the tax returns and the tapes. So why is this current situation a better choice for Trump than just putting an end to it?

[awareness]

Russian Cyber Hacks on U.S. Electoral System Far Wider Than Previously Known
Russia’s cyberattack on the U.S. electoral system before Donald Trump’s election was far more widespread than has been publicly revealed, including incursions into voter databases and software systems in almost twice as many states as previously reported.
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...-u-s-elections

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One thing that I find very puzzling, the whole issue of the tapes. Is there any good reason to not just answer yes or no? Surely Trump knows if his conversations are taped. If he comes out now and says no he appears like the biggest jerk. On the other hand if he says yes then why wait? It would have been much more powerful to respond to Comey's testimony by releasing the tapes. Is he trying to destroy the tapes? That is going to blow up in his face. So I don't get it.

The other thing I find interesting is if Sessions will claim executive privilege. On one hand the WH is complaining about all the hubbub of the media, the best way to put a stop to it is to simply answer the questions. But if they claim executive privilege this will go on for months as they legislate every single question and whether or not Sessions has the right to executive privilege.

Trump has complete power to put an end very quickly to all the speculation -- release the tax returns and the tapes. So why is this current situation a better choice for Trump than just putting an end to it?

I think I figured this out.

Suppose Trump does have tapes, it is a lot better that he warned people before they went on record and testified, which he did with his tweet. However, instead of just releasing it immediately he can give the pundits time to speculate so that he can completely humiliate them. So, if Trump has tapes and they support his statement that "I didn't say that" then this is not a bad strategy.

However, he now has to have tapes. If he now claims he doesn't have tapes he looks like a child and a jerk for stringing everyone along. Also many people won't believe him and will decide that the long period of time that it took to answer the question was time for him to get rid of the tapes. Speculation will get worse.

That said, Trump's tweet about the tapes actually emboldened Comey since it wouldn't just be "he said, he said" but rather it could be corroborated. So it is very likely that the tweet about the tapes resulted in the leak (Comey said it did), the special prosecutor (Comey said it did) and Comey's hearing. So then if the tapes corroborate Comey it will be a spectacularly bad strategy on Trump's part. This last scenario would actually vindicate the comparisons of him to a child.

Now suppose Trump fires the special prosecutor, which is the latest speculation. If he has the tapes to prove he is innocent why would you do that knowing it would create an incredible back lash with the media being whipped into a frenzy and protests and marches?

The only good reason to fire him is if you do not have the tapes to prove you are innocent. You can't complain about media hype when you do stuff that just fans the flames and throws gasoline on the fire. Also, it would by a short-lived victory. The outrage we are seeing in the town halls would explode at the polls.

So it seems to me if Trump fires the prosecutor he is guilty and will be thrown out at the next election (midterms, Democrats take control and vote to impeach).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One thing that I find very puzzling, the whole issue of the tapes. Is there any good reason to not just answer yes or no? Surely Trump knows if his conversations are taped. If he comes out now and says no he appears like the biggest jerk. On the other hand if he says yes then why wait? It would have been much more powerful to respond to Comey's testimony by releasing the tapes. Is he trying to destroy the tapes? That is going to blow up in his face. So I don't get it.

The other thing I find interesting is if Sessions will claim executive privilege. On one hand the WH is complaining about all the hubbub of the media, the best way to put a stop to it is to simply answer the questions. But if they claim executive privilege this will go on for months as they legislate every single question and whether or not Sessions has the right to executive privilege.

Trump has complete power to put an end very quickly to all the speculation -- release the tax returns and the tapes. So why is this current situation a better choice for Trump than just putting an end to it?

I find your comments a little naive. There will never be an "end."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There will never be an "end."

Ain't it the truth. It doesn't matter what side of the aisle, fence, or wall you find yourself, nothing ends it. They're still beating on both Bush and Obama. All the way back to Carter, Nixon, JFK and even earlier.

It never ends.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Ain't it the truth. It doesn't matter what side of the aisle, fence, or wall you find yourself, nothing ends it. They're still beating on both Bush and Obama. All the way back to Carter, Nixon, JFK and even earlier.

It never ends.

Well ... I must say there has been a slowdown on Bush-Bashing since Trump emerged on the political scene.

Can you imaging the feeding frenzy over Trump's tax returns? To me the whole thing is a witch hunt. If there are problems, doesn't the IRS have enough agents for them?

Where was the special prosecutor for Benghazi, Fast and Furious, Hillary's emails, IRS targeting Tea Party, etc.?

They found NO collusion with Russia, but can't stop now, "we'll just have to keep looking until we find something."

Meanwhile, with all the leaks in WashDC, I'm buying more stock in Kimberly-Clark, which makes "Depends."

[Evangelical]

I think Trump is innocent in all this. He never colluded with Russia, and everything is a media exaggeration. There are actually no solid facts, just rumors and innuendo that media makes into a story that sounds worse than it really is.

Comey's testimony looked bad on Comey because he admitted that Trump was not under investigation, and the President did not issue him a direct command or order, just expressed a hope. Comey broke the protocol by not consulting the right people, that makes himself look bad.

[zeek]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/s...r-alt-48031226

Time for Ohio to write off the Southern Baptists as liberals since on Wednesday they formally condemned the political movement known as the "alt-right," in a national meeting.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/s...r-alt-48031226

Time for Ohio to write off the Southern Baptists as liberals since on Wednesday they formally condemned the political movement known as the "alt-right," in a national meeting.

I suppose they reject their white supremacist founding too? But I'm glad they've finally come to their senses.

Still, I've been told by Southern Baptist family that I don't belong in the SB church. My sister was told by members of the SB church she's been a member of for decades that she can't wear pants, and has to be a republican. They must not have gotten the memo yet, that the SBC is now liberal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/s...r-alt-48031226

Time for Ohio to write off the Southern Baptists as liberals since on Wednesday they formally condemned the political movement known as the "alt-right," in a national meeting.

There you go again, using my name in vain.

[ZNPaaneah]

So then, is this the "biggest witch hunt in American history"?

finally a true intersection of Politics and the Church.

You need to put the Salem witch trials into the consideration unless Trump said "US history" in which case they would be excluded. Hard to say "biggest" for a witch hunt that really only encompassed one small town and a couple of teenage girls. But worst, certainly in the running for the worst witch hunt.

McCarthyism certainly comes to mind in the political arena. The Red scare (the second one) with the trial of Alger Hiss comes immediately to mind. As soon as the hearing was over it was portrayed as the biggest witch hunt, and yet had it not been for a junior congressman in his first term (Nixon) they would have dropped the investigation of Hiss, but instead they persisted and convicted him of perjury.

Interestingly, the whole McCarthyism came during Truman's presidency (a democrat) and was waged by the Republicans as a red herring to distract from the policies Truman was trying to enact. Oh the irony, you reap what you sow.

First Truman suffered the biggest witch hunt, now Trump.

As for the allegation of "No evidence of collusion"?! There is clearly evidence of Obstruction of Justice and why would you obstruct the investigation if there was no collusion? Nixon was not impeached for the break in, he was impeached for the cover up, which was obstruction of justice.

[ZNPaaneah]

One other point that many may not be aware of.

It is generally well known that the only reason the commission continued to investigate Alger Hiss after the first hearing was due to Nixon. But many don't know the reason why Nixon, a junior, freshman congressman, pushed for this.

Nixon had asked Hiss where he went to college, Hiss said "John's Hopkins, and Harvard, and you, I believe went to Whittier?" (Richard Nixon: The Life, by John A Farrel)

That insult was what did Hiss in. Wouldn't it be ironic if some insult from Trump is what does him in?

[awareness]

This just in :

Caitlyn Jenner says liberals can't even shoot straight.

[awareness]

Making the clock great too :

Doomsday Clock ticks closer to apocalypse and 1 person is to blame ...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rump/97077736/

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Making the clock great too :

Doomsday Clock ticks closer to apocalypse and 1 person is to blame ...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rump/97077736/

If they are moving the clock because of the stupid things Trump says ,then the Doomsday clock has become nothing more than a Trump-o-meter and we should not take it seriously. Not that we could ever take it seriously, because if we look at the graph over years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

The clock did not even rate a blip during the Cuban Missile crisis.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If they are moving the clock because of the stupid things Trump says ,then the Doomsday clock has become nothing more than a Trump-o-meter and we should not take it seriously. Not that we could ever take it seriously, because if we look at the graph over years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

The clock did not even rate a blip during the Cuban Missile crisis.

The doomsday clock is doomed to failure. But I don't know, all that loose talk about using nukes, by Trump, does spike anxiety levels ... 'specially now that he's got the nuclear football ... and given N. Korea shooting off missile after missile, that they claim can reach us.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

The doomsday clock is doomed to failure. But I don't know, all that loose talk about using nukes, by Trump, does spike anxiety levels ... 'specially now that he's got the nuclear football ... and given N. Korea shooting off missile after missile, that they claim can reach us.

They can surely reach a coastal lying city from a submarine, no doubt. But why NK rhetoric does not move the clock, why only Trumps rhetoric?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They can surely reach a coastal lying city from a submarine, no doubt. But why NK rhetoric does not move the clock, why only Trumps rhetoric?

Cuz it's scary with a crazy guy with that football.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Cuz it's scary with a crazy guy with that football.

Any scarier than Nixon who thought JFK manipulated the Cuban Missile crisis so that he would lose the campaign for governor of California?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Cuz it's scary with a crazy guy with that football.

Scary??? You don't know what scary is.

Why oh why did you never express any concerns about Carter and Clinton enabling N.K. to get a football?

Why oh why did you never express any concerns when your boy Baracke gave a football to Iran, the home of his girl Valerie?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Scary??? You don't know what scary is.

Why oh why did you never express any concerns about Carter and Clinton enabling N.K. to get a football?

Why oh why did you never express any concerns when your boy Baracke gave a football to Iran, the home of his girl Valerie?

Yes bro Ohio, and now you know why the doomsday clock is set to 2.5 minutes to midnight.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes bro Ohio, and now you know why the doomsday clock is set to 2.5 minutes to midnight.

I grew up with air raid shelters every where. We were told that we only had seconds to get there. 2.5 minutes seems like eternity.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I grew up with air raid shelters every where. We were told that we only had seconds to get there. 2.5 minutes seems like eternity.

Given the nuclear tension out there it could mean eternity.

[ZNPaaneah]

After a very thorough and complete investigation Trump has determined and stated clearly that he did not make nor does he have recordings of his conversations with Comey.

"With all of the recently reported electronic surveillance, intercepts, unmasking and illegal leaking of information, I have no idea......whether there are "tapes" or recordings of my conversations with James Comey, but I did not make, and do not have, any such recordings."

I think what the president of the United States is saying is that he doesn't know if someone else is making recordings of what is going on the oval office, but as for him, he doesn't have any tapes.

Did I understand that right?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

After a very thorough and complete investigation Trump has determined and stated clearly that he did not make nor does he have recordings of his conversations with Comey.

"With all of the recently reported electronic surveillance, intercepts, unmasking and illegal leaking of information, I have no idea......whether there are "tapes" or recordings of my conversations with James Comey, but I did not make, and do not have, any such recordings."

I think what the president of the United States is saying is that he doesn't know if someone else is making recordings of what is going on the oval office, but as for him, he doesn't have any tapes.

Did I understand that right?

Did Nixon take his recorder home with him?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Given the nuclear tension out there it could mean eternity.

At least the media has stopped blaming W for all the world's problems.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At least the media has stopped blaming W for all the world's problems.

The media sucks ... but it's all we got to get info from. No media gets at what's really going on. That's top secret, and done behind closed doors. We'll find out later, if ever.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did Nixon take his recorder home with him?

No, you are misreading this. He doesn't say that no one made a recording, he even implies that someone might have made a recording. What he is saying is that he didn't. I guess someone else was responsible for taking care of the audio equipment.

Also he isn't saying there isn't a recording. Instead, he is saying that after 48 days he doesn't have the recording.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

The media sucks ... but it's all we got to get info from. No media gets at what's really going on. That's top secret, and done behind closed doors. We'll find out later, if ever.

You know what is really funny about that. Remember the Pentagon papers with Ellsberg, Nixon fought the legality of the media printing them, and lost. He then had his henchman release pentagon papers to smear JFK and LBJ. The same guy complaining about how treasonous it was to release this information was the one releasing all sorts of the exact same information.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, you are misreading this. He doesn't say that no one made a recording, he even implies that someone might have made a recording. What he is saying is that he didn't. I guess someone else was responsible for taking care of the audio equipment.

Also he isn't saying there isn't a recording. Instead, he is saying that after 48 days he doesn't have the recording.

It's likely the recordings prove Comey's memo's true and accurate ... and that's why they don't exist now.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's likely the recordings prove Comey's memo's true and accurate ... and that's why they don't exist now.

He didn't say they don't exist. It is a non denial denial. He doesn't deny they exist, he simply says he didn't make them -- it all comes down to what the definition of "make" is.

Also it took him 41 days to say "he doesn't have any tapes of Comey conversations". He never says no one has them.

It took Trump's lawyers 41 days to come up with this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Also it took him 41 days to say "he doesn't have any tapes of Comey conversations". He never says no one has them.

It took Trump's lawyers 41 days to come up with this.

But you are OK that it took many months to learn that Trump is not under investigation, until we learn that he may be under investigation?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But you are OK that it took many months to learn that Trump is not under investigation, until we learn that he may be under investigation?

I am not fine with the politics and bipartisanship. I think Trump's administration has more leaks than any I have ever seen and I learned that one reason for that is that Trump watches the news and his underlings realize this is one way for them to bring something before him when they can't get a meeting.

I am happy that since Mueller has been appointed most of this stuff has been completely shut off.

I am glad that someone is doing a thorough investigation that we can trust and doing it in a professional way without the leaks.

I also am not fine that our President is tweeting at all hours of the day. I realized that he used this effectively to win the election. But now that he is president it makes him out to be a fool.

For example "Comey needs to hope there are no tapes" and then 41 days later "I don't have any tapes, someone else might, I don't know, but I didn't make any tapes".

I used to think that the oval office was secure from being bugged by anyone that was not authorized by the President. Even if that is not true I would feel better if you pretended it was. But the president of the US doesn't have any idea if the oval office is being bugged by someone else?

He had 41 days, couldn't they bring in someone to do one of those electronic sweeps to see if there are any bugs? Either Trump is a complete idiot or he thinks I am. Either way I am angry.

[zeek]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...pgtype=article

There is simply no precedent for an American president to spend so much time telling untruths. Every president has shaded the truth or told occasional whoppers. No other president — of either party — has behaved as Trump is behaving. He is trying to create an atmosphere in which reality is irrelevant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...pgtype=article

For months the NYT has informed us that the Trump administration has colluded with the Russians. For months we have heard suspicions, rumors, insider leaks, falsities, and lies -- but not a single shred of actual evidence about Trump colluding with the Russians.

Now we hear that Obama knew back in August 2016 that the Russians attempted to interfere with our election, BUT DID NOTHING. He ignored the facts because Hillary was assured of winning. It was guaranteed.

For most of Americans, the New York Times has no credibility zeek.. Sorry but you have become one of the Swamp People.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...pgtype=article

Surely you didn't mean there is no precedent for a President telling untruth, so your issue isn't the lie, it is the amount of time spent on the lie?

Can you explain how Nixon and LBJ cannot be viewed as a precedent?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For months the NYT has informed us that the Trump administration has colluded with the Russians. For months we have heard suspicions, rumors, insider leaks, falsities, and lies -- but not a single shred of actual evidence about Trump colluding with the Russians.

Now we hear that Obama knew back in August 2016 that the Russians attempted to interfere with our election, BUT DID NOTHING. He ignored the facts because Hillary was assured of winning. It was guaranteed.

For most of Americans, the New York Times has no credibility zeek.. Sorry but you have become one of the Swamp People.

This is the one truth to emerge that is not in dispute. Obama handled the intelligence about Russian meddling in a partisan, political way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is the one truth to emerge that is not in dispute. Obama handled the intelligence about Russian meddling in a partisan, political way.

Romans 2.1 aptly describes nearly every attack on Trump.

Whatever they accuse him of is exactly what they are guilty of. Without exception.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Romans 2.1 aptly describes nearly every attack on Trump.

Whatever they accuse him of is exactly what they are guilty of. Without exception.

The beauty of Trump is that if someone goes after him he will take them down too, so in the process of impeaching Trump they are going to wind up blowing up the entire swamp. Ironically fulfilling his campaign goal.

Perhaps the best Bible reference would be Samson bring the entire house down upon himself.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For months the NYT has informed us that the Trump administration has colluded with the Russians. For months we have heard suspicions, rumors, insider leaks, falsities, and lies -- but not a single shred of actual evidence about Trump colluding with the Russians.

Now we hear that Obama knew back in August 2016 that the Russians attempted to interfere with our election, BUT DID NOTHING. He ignored the facts because Hillary was assured of winning. It was guaranteed.

For most of Americans, the New York Times has no credibility zeek.. Sorry but you have become one of the Swamp People.

I think you mean that the NYT has no credibility for most fans of "Fox and Friends."

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Surely you didn't mean there is no precedent for a President telling untruth, so your issue isn't the lie, it is the amount of time spent on the lie?

Can you explain how Nixon and LBJ cannot be viewed as a precedent?

Surely you read the acknowledgement that " Every president has shaded the truth or told occasional whoppers."

Duplicity isn't unusual among politicians and a degree of self-delusion is common among people of power. But, Trump exceeds even Nixon and LBJ in the frequency and pervasiveness of lies. Nixon was able to dissemble because he knew when he was lying and when he wasn't. Trump doesn't seem to know the difference. For him, adherence to objective truth is irrelevant. All that matters is winning.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I think you mean that the NYT has no credibility for most fans of "Fox and Friends."

Fox News Corp. has the highest journalistic standards, and their ratings reflect it.

Where are the retractions for all of the NYT's false reports about Trump and the Russians?

At least CNN fired a few employees for their false reports. Have you seen the latest Veritas sting video of CNN's producer admitting that all their Russian stories were just BS and hyped for ratings?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Surely you read the acknowledgement that " Every president has shaded the truth or told occasional whoppers."

Duplicity isn't unusual among politicians and a degree of self-delusion is common among people of power. But, Trump exceeds even Nixon and LBJ in the frequency and pervasiveness of lies. Nixon was able to dissemble because he knew when he was lying and when he wasn't. Trump doesn't seem to know the difference. For him, adherence to objective truth is irrelevant. All that matters is winning.

And you know these are all "lies" because "reputable" sources like CNN told you so???

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fox News Corp. has the highest journalistic standards, and their ratings reflect it.

Bahaha!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And you know these are all "lies" because "reputable" sources like CNN told you so???

I know they are lies when he contradicts himself which he does it seems like nearly every day.

[zeek]

If Mahatma Ghandi was correct that “a nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members” the senate should reject the Republican health care bill. If Trump and Congress want to make America great they should adopt Bernie Sanders' health care proposal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Mahatma Ghandi was correct that “a nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members” the senate should reject the Republican health care bill. If Trump and Congress want to make America great they should adopt Bernie Sanders' health care proposal.

Your kind of "greatness" costs America more than a Trillion a year in borrowed money. We are now the poorest nation in the history of mankind, digging a bigger hole every day with all of our entitlements. But what do you care, you are a socialist. Why don't you find a socialist country and move there with all the others who promised to leave if Trump was elected?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Mahatma Ghandi was correct that “a nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members” the senate should reject the Republican health care bill. If Trump and Congress want to make America great they should adopt Bernie Sanders' health care proposal.

Congress needs to knock off the nonsense, look north for a system that's working, and go with Elizabeth Warren's call for a single payer health care system.

I wonder if the healthcare system currently being proposed is for genocide of the poor and undesirables.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your kind of "greatness" costs America more than a Trillion a year in borrowed money. We are now the poorest nation in the history of mankind, digging a bigger hole every day with all of our entitlements. But what do you care, you are a socialist. Why don't you find a socialist country and move there with all the others who promised to leave if Trump was elected?

I should leave the country because I disagree with you?

Why do you favor tax cuts for the wealthiest and health care cuts for the disabled? That seems mean spirited. Don't you know disabled people and children who benefit from Medicaid and couldn't survive without it?

You're concerned about the national debt? Doesn't it bother you that middle-class Americans are forced to pay taxes, while the super-rich and corporations enjoy loopholes and Republicans plan to give them greater tax breaks?

I opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which cost $2.4 trillion because they were financed with borrowed money. America spends almost as much on defense as the rest of the world combined.

But you're OK with that? You prefer to cut Entitlements like Social Security? Haven't you paid into SS? Unless you're filthy rich, it seems like your opinions run counter to your own interests and all but the wealthiest Americans.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Surely you read the acknowledgement that " Every president has shaded the truth or told occasional whoppers."

Duplicity isn't unusual among politicians and a degree of self-delusion is common among people of power. But, Trump exceeds even Nixon and LBJ in the frequency and pervasiveness of lies. Nixon was able to dissemble because he knew when he was lying and when he wasn't. Trump doesn't seem to know the difference. For him, adherence to objective truth is irrelevant. All that matters is winning.

Once again I see lots of precedent for Trump's behavior, even if you think it is more extreme, more excessive. There was plenty of concern for both LBJ and Nixon that at times they had gone nuts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I should leave the country because I disagree with you?

Why do you favor tax cuts for the wealthiest and health care cuts for the disabled? That seems mean spirited. Don't you know disabled people and children who benefit from Medicaid and couldn't survive without it?

You're concerned about the national debt? Doesn't it bother you that middle-class Americans are forced to pay taxes, while the super-rich and corporations enjoy loopholes and Republicans plan to give them greater tax breaks?

I opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which cost $2.4 trillion because they were financed with borrowed money. America spends almost as much on defense as the rest of the world combined.

But you're OK with that? You prefer to cut Entitlements like Social Security? Haven't you paid into SS? Unless you're filthy rich, it seems like your opinions run counter to your own interests and all but the wealthiest Americans.

Leave the country because you hate Trump.

More liberal talking points. Can't you think on your own?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Leave the country because you hate Trump.

More liberal talking points. Can't you think on your own?

Sorry, but I'm staying. I presented reasonable arguments that you can't answer so you dismiss them. You apparently can't think at all. Just keep watching "Fox and Friends". They'll tell you what you want to hear.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Once again I see lots of precedent for Trump's behavior, even if you think it is more extreme, more excessive. There was plenty of concern for both LBJ and Nixon that at times they had gone nuts.

But Trump is just beginning. Like bro Ohio likes to state : Let's give him a chance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Sorry, but I'm staying. I presented reasonable arguments that you can't answer so you dismiss them. You apparently can't think at all. Just keep watching "Fox and Friends". They'll tell you what you want to hear.

Here's a great book for my liberals friends (if they dare to know the truth)

The Smear:
How Shady Political Operatives and Fake News
Control What You See, What You Think, and How You Vote

.

It starts with the Clintonistas. Here's an excerpt ...

Women weren’t Bill’s only problem. Besides the accusations swirling about his affairs, there were questionable business dealings, which came to be known simply as “Whitewater.” They threatened to undermine his candidacy. Perhaps no one had a better understanding of Whitewater and its significance, then or now, than Pulitzer Prize–winning reporter Jeff Gerth. In fact, if there’s one journalist who most knows what it’s like to be in the crosshairs of the Clinton smear operation for the long haul, it has to Gerth. From the moment he wrote his first New York Times investigative article about the Clintons’ shady Whitewater dealings on March 8, 1992, he was a marked man.

Branded. Like Chuck Connors in the 1960s TV series. Gerth would remain a favorite whipping boy of the propagandist left for the next two decades, and then some. The Clinton smear machine has a long memory, and an even longer reach. Besides, the credibility of the smear target is directly proportional to the imperative to discredit him. Gerth’s entrée into the dark side of the Clinton universe was his original 1992 New York Times article headlined “Clintons Joined S&L Operator in an Ozark Real-Estate Venture.” It was widely acclaimed in journalism circles as an important break in the Whitewater scandal. Today it remains in many ways a definitive dissection of the Clintons’ complicated entanglements with an insolvent savings and loan, a money-losing real estate deal, and a business partner later convicted of fraud.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a great book for my liberals friends (if they dare to know the truth)

The Smear:
How Shady Political Operatives and Fake News
Control What You See, What You Think, and How You Vote

.

It starts with the Clintonistas. Here's an excerpt ...

So you found someone who tells you what you want to hear, another echo for your echo chamber. Big whoop. What else is new?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a great book for my liberals friends (if they dare to know the truth)

The Smear:
How Shady Political Operatives and Fake News
Control What You See, What You Think, and How You Vote

Do you read this book?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you found someone who tells you what you want to hear, another echo for your echo chamber. Big whoop. What else is new?

Better to hear what's true from a few good sources, then to listen to the multitudes of fools you listen to. My "echo chamber" is pretty quiet, so I can think clearly, while your "echo chamber" is deafeningly loud, and nobody is able to think. Wide is the way that leads to destruction.

Case in Point: Russian hacking of 2016 Election. What about all your posts about Trump's involvement???

• The other day we found out that Obama knew it last August, and did nothing!
• Yesterday we found out from CNN producer that is was "mostly bullship."
• Today we find out it is a "nothing burger" for liberals to eat. You getting sick like Comey?

Time to leave your echo chamber, zeek. It's affecting your brain. Dementia has set in.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Did you read this book?

Nah. He saw the author, Sharyl Attkisson on "Fox and Friends". That's where his point of view is spoon-fed to him. Fox has become Ohio's MOTA.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Better to hear what's true from a few good sources, then to listen to the multitudes of fools you listen to. My "echo chamber" is pretty quiet, so I can think clearly, while your "echo chamber" is deafeningly loud, and nobody is able to think. Wide is the way that leads to destruction.

Case in Point: Russian hacking of 2016 Election. What about all your posts about Trump's involvement???

• The other day we found out that Obama knew it last August, and did nothing!
• Yesterday we found out from CNN producer that is was "mostly bullship."
• Today we find out it is a "nothing burger" for liberals to eat. You getting sick like Comey?

Time to leave your echo chamber, zeek. It's affecting your brain. Dementia has set in.

Mueller can call off the investigation. Ohio's got all the answers.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Better to hear what's true from a few good sources,

Hear ! Hear ! Please share with us these few good sources. Please save me a lot of time and trouble.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hear ! Hear ! Please share with us these few good sources.

Read Sara Carter and John Solomon's work on circa.com and americanthinker.com

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you found someone who tells you what you want to hear, another echo for your echo chamber. Big whoop. What else is new?

What else is new? CNN is repenting of their lying ways.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What else is new? CNN is repenting of their lying ways.

Well that post had an echo chamber ring to it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Read Sara Carter and John Solomon's work on circa.com and americanthinker.com

Thanks Ohio. Circa I found nicely balanced, but American Thinker pegs the bias meter into the right red.

Because I gather news from both the left and right I've become pretty good at sorting out the bias. I figure, if I want the dirt on conservatives I'll listen to the liberals, and same for the liberals. That's why my daily intake of news comes both sides.

And, by the way, breaking news can come from anywhere, even the National Enquirer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Ohio. Circa I found nicely balanced, but American Thinker pegs the bias meter into the right red.

Because I gather news from both the left and right I've become pretty good at sorting out the bias. I figure, if I want the dirt on conservatives I'll listen to the liberals, and same for the liberals. That's why my daily intake of news comes both sides.

And, by the way, breaking news can come from anywhere, even the National Enquirer.

Have you rejected CNN completely yet for all their fake Russia news?

Circa has broken some stories which got to the bottom of this Russian collusion nonsense. Now we find that Flynn was ousted for defending an FBI supervisory agent in a discrimination case. McCabe and the good ole boys club attempted to smear her reputation, while Flynn and other military types came to her aide.

McCabe is filthy. He has to go. You won't get this news on your favorite sites.

American Thinker is right, sure, but also accurate, unlike the 3 letter outlets.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you rejected CNN completely yet for all their fake Russia news?

Circa has broken some stories which got to the bottom of this Russian collusion nonsense. Now we find that Flynn was ousted for defending an FBI supervisory agent in a discrimination case. McCabe and the good ole boys club attempted to smear her reputation, while Flynn and other military types came to her aide.

McCabe is filthy. He has to go. You won't get this news on your favorite sites.

American Thinker is right, sure, but also accurate, unlike the 3 letter outlets.

I think Trump has won this argument about fake news. He has the undeniable evidence, fake Time magazine's with his picture on them.

Whoever is responsible for that fake news needs to apologize.

[Evangelical]

Propaganda Terms in the Media and What They Mean - Noam Chomsky

https://youtu.be/vmoXze-Higc

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you rejected CNN completely yet for all their fake Russia news?

I Don't watch CNN.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Circa has broken some stories which got to the bottom of this Russian collusion nonsense.

Given Robert Mueller is just beginning that strikes me as an early conclusion.

Originally Posted by Ohio

McCabe is filthy. He has to go. You won't get this news on your favorite sites.

McCabe is brand new. And I don't have favorite sites (that I assume you believe are liberal sites). Your omniscience is amazing, how you can see into everyone's head ... better tho, get it re calibrated.

Originally Posted by Ohio

American Thinker is right, sure, but also accurate, unlike the 3 letter outlets.

Drudgereport is not a 3 letter outlet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Given Robert Mueller is just beginning that strikes me as an early conclusion.

McCabe is brand new.

Yes, Mueller is just beginning. Have you looked at who he has hired? That says it all. Keep reading bro!

Mccabe is not brand new. He is dirty. Keep reading bro!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Propaganda Terms in the Media and What They Mean - Noam Chomsky

https://youtu.be/vmoXze-Higc

Noam is speaking of doublespeak.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, Mueller is just beginning. Have you looked at who he has hired? That says it all. Keep reading bro!

Mccabe is not brand new. He is dirty. Keep reading bro!

I read a lot, but can't seem to keep up. But am glad we've got you that's on top of it all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I read a lot, but can't seem to keep up. But am glad we've got you that's on top of it all.

Who is "we've got you"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who is "we've got you"?

We've is us AltVer's. You is ... well you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Noam is speaking of doublespeak.

Yes of the media of the progapaganda of the United Cult of America

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes of the media of the progapaganda of the United Cult of America

Well we certainly now have our personality cult leader. And it amazes me when exLCers, who have come out of a cult, would fall for it. I haven't done the study but I think the odds are the reason is because they never came to the conclusion that the LC is a cult ... and they still have the local church itch.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well we certainly now have our personality cult leader. And it amazes me when exLCers, who have come out of a cult, would fall for it. I haven't done the study but I think the odds are the reason is because they never came to the conclusion that the LC is a cult ... and they still have the local church itch.

Maybe they just enjoy being part of something bigger than themselves.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Maybe they just enjoy being part of something bigger than themselves.

So they can't see they are part of the universe, and settle for something smaller that's bigger than themselves. Okay. I think human's are hardwired with a propensity for cults.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So they can't see they are part of the universe, and settle for something smaller that's bigger than themselves. Okay. I think human's are hardwired with a propensity for cults.

I see that with the radical left's propensity for violent protest and obnoxious behavior.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see that with the radical left's propensity for violent protest and obnoxious behavior.

And I agree. Same with the radical right.

[zeek]

"Politico" opinion piece says Trump is winning the immigration debate: http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...-debate-215340

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Politico" opinion piece says Trump is winning the immigration debate: http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...-debate-215340

You knew with every terrorist attack his position would look better.

The problem with protectionism is that it is more expensive, not less. If we begin to spend more on things it may seem beneficial, but it will hurt the economy and that will translate as either inflation, recession or both. Meanwhile China's exports to us have increased, not decreased.

Second, his approach is clearly driving a wedge between us and our allies. That may seem to save money in the short term, kind of like canceling the payment on the berth for your yacht at the yacht club while also losing the yacht. Instead of having our armies and navies safely docked in Europe and Japan, we'll bring them home. Yes we save money, but now if we are attacked it is on our soil and not theirs. So it is possible that total expenses will decrease, but our position in the world will greatly decrease.

The main problem of course is that the only way a government can succeed is if the population trusts the government. Attacks on the elections will undermine that both here and in Europe.

At this point I would say that his policies have not made the US safer, have hurt our standing among other nations, and they potentially could damage our economy. On top of this N. Korea has just thumbed their nose at his ultimatum or "line in the sand".

[ZNPaaneah]

“Christians are merely strangers and sojourners on earth (Heb. 11:13-16; 1 Pet. 2:11). Who can interfere or participate in the politics of a country? Only those who are the citizens of that country can do this. Those Chinese who reside in Japan have no right to interfere with the politics of Japan. The fact that we are strangers and sojourners shows that we have nothing to do with the politics of this world.” (Watchman Nee — from Post 1)

13*These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

These men refer to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. All of these men were very active in their community. They did not live during a democracy. They fought battles, met with political leaders, and established governments. This is the basis for WN’s doctrine, that their testimony was that they were strangers and sojourners, hence no Christian can be involved in the political process. This seems like WN has taken this word “stranger and sojourner” and created a teaching based on the logical extreme while ignoring the context.

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

The context of this verse reference is clearly a matter of "doing well" and "your good works".

[zeek]

Can you say "Veselnitskaya"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Can you say "Veselnitskaya"?

They are finding more and more hidden ties to the Russians during Trump's campaign. And now Trump wants to start a cybersecurity unit with Russia. Isn't that just letting the fox into the hen house?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

They are finding more and more hidden ties to the Russians during Trump's campaign. And now Trump wants to start a cybersecurity unit with Russia. Isn't that just letting the fox into the hen house?

Putin trumped Trump.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Putin trumped Trump.

Until Trump came along, the USA had been winning every hand of cards?

[ZNPaaneah]

I think there are a lot of interesting parallels between Trump and Andrew Jackson.

Like Trump Andrew Jackson's daughter played a pivotal role in his administration.

Also like Trump the level of "fake news" and vicious media attacks were off the charts. Andrew Jackson was an outsider, the first president to be be elected who was not part of the ruling elite, defeating John Adams, who was part of the existing political dynasty. Also, like Trump Andrew Jackson campaigned with a brand new approach where he walked with the people and interacted directly with the common man. Also, like Trump's building a wall to keep out the Mexicans, removing the Indians was a major part of Jackson's campaign.

However, as people I would say that Jackson was the antithesis of Trump. Jackson was intensely loyal, which is why he was called "old hickory". His loyalty extended to anyone and everyone that was "on his team" including indians and their families. In contrast Trump cuts loose anyone and everyone, famous for his "your fired" line. Also it was quite obvious in his writing and speaking that the Bible and the work of Christ infused his heart, whereas with Trump any reference of his to the Bible is so superficial you realize it is contrived. However, whereas Trump has no issue using religion for political purposes Jackson absolutely refused since his understanding of the constitution was that as President he didn't want to present a biased impression concerning religion.

Why is this important? Jackson was president as the country split apart. You could see the impending civil war. Jackson was also battling the corrupt influence of a national bank. Also the debate was over State's rights vs Federal govt. Today the debate is over whether or not our Federal government has become too powerful and is in violation of the constitution with whistleblowers like Snowden coming forward with their warnings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think there are a lot of interesting parallels between Trump and Andrew Jackson.

Perhaps Andrew Jackson should rather be compared to Hillary Clinton whose outbursts have also been the subject of much scrutiny ...

Jackson's quick temper was notorious. Biographer H. W. Brands notes that his opponents were terrified of his temper: "Observers likened him to a volcano, and only the most intrepid or recklessly curious cared to see it erupt. ...His close associates all had stories of his blood-curling oaths, his summoning of the Almighty to loose His wrath upon some miscreant, typically followed by his own vow to hang the villain or blow him to perdition. Given his record—in duels, brawls, mutiny trials, and summary hearings—listeners had to take his vows seriously."

(from H. W. Brands, Andrew Jackson: His Life and Times)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps Andrew Jackson should rather be compared to Hillary Clinton whose outbursts have also been the subject of much scrutiny ...

(from H. W. Brands, Andrew Jackson: His Life and Times)

That reminds me of a very funny story which is also a similarity with Trump.

When Andrew Jackson was elected president they interviewed a woman from a town he lived in as a young man. She was shocked --'Andrew Jackson? The Andrew Jackson that lived here? He is president? He was a rake. Wow, I guess that means anyone can be president.' I paraphrase but that was the sentiment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That reminds me of a very funny story which is also a similarity with Trump.

When Andrew Jackson was elected president they interviewed a woman from a town he lived in as a young man. She was shocked --'Andrew Jackson? The Andrew Jackson that lived here? He is president? He was a rake. Wow, I guess that means anyone can be president.' I paraphrase but that was the sentiment.

A Rake: "a fashionable or wealthy man of dissolute or promiscuous habits"

Sounds like JFK, LBJ, WJC, DJT and so many other alpha dog politicians.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

They are finding more and more hidden ties to the Russians during Trump's campaign. And now Trump wants to start a cybersecurity unit with Russia. Isn't that just letting the fox into the hen house?

You still believe these fake news stories?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A Rake: "a fashionable or wealthy man of dissolute or promiscuous habits"

Sounds like JFK, LBJ, WJC, DJT and so many other alpha dog politicians.

I would delete LBJ from that list, he wasn't a "rake" until he could afford fashionable clothes which was well into his political career. By that time you would be a fool to be surprised that he had become president.

I also wouldn't include WJC, he was promiscuous from a kid, but seeing pictures of him he wasn't fashionable or wealthy.

As for JFK, yes he was the epitome of a rake, but only a fool would be surprised that he became president.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A Rake: "a fashionable or wealthy man of dissolute or promiscuous habits"

Sounds like JFK, LBJ, WJC, DJT and so many other alpha dog politicians.

Trump's a rake and Hillary is a hoe.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

As for JFK, yes he was the epitome of a rake, but only a fool would be surprised that he became president.

Lots of fools were surprised when Trump became president. If any of these upstanding "fools" happen to be on your preferred news source list, then perhaps you might want to consider some changes in your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkMA6JPOHU

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lots of fools were surprised when Trump became president. If any of these upstanding "fools" happen to be on your preferred news source list, then perhaps you might want to consider some changes in your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkMA6JPOHU

Trump. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

Slightly better than your old chants:

Obama. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

Hillary. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Slightly better than your old chants:

Obama. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

Hillary. Our hero. Our replacement for Witness Lee.

Yer a funny guy bro Ohio.

But I got to bring good ol' Bob Dylan into this discussion :

"Well, I've been to London and I been to gay Paris
I've followed the river and I got to the sea
I've been down on the bottom of the world full of lies
I ain't lookin' for nothin' in anyone's eyes . . ."
~ Dylan - Not Dark Yet

[zeek]

Junior tweeted himself into NYT's trap.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Junior tweeted himself into NYT's trap.

But is there a will to litigate? I can only imagine if this had been Obama.

And why is Daddy's twitter silent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Junior tweeted himself into NYT's trap.

Despicable NYT laying a trap to catch those who collude with the Russians into admitting it!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But is there a will to litigate? I can only imagine if this had been Obama.

And why is Daddy's twitter silent.

Who's your Daddy?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Who's your Daddy?

Who's your sky Daddy?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Junior tweeted himself into NYT's trap.

Hysteria has gripped the camp of Trump haters.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hysteria has gripped the camp of Trump haters.

Apathy toward treason has gripped yours.

[zeek]

For months, Mr. Trump has dismissed suspicions of collusion between Russia and his team as “fake news” and a “total hoax.” Junior, likewise, had previously asserted that talk of collusion was “disgusting” and “so phony.” Kushner faces the deepest potential trouble so far because he currently works in the White House and neglected to mention the Russian encounter on forms he filled out for a background check to obtain a security clearance. He's more concerned about protecting himself than Father-in-law Trump. After Junior was outed by the NYT, Trump tweeted “My son is a high-quality person and I applaud his transparency”. What a nest of traitorous lying snakes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

For months, Mr. Trump has dismissed suspicions of collusion between Russia and his team as “fake news” and a “total hoax.” Junior, likewise, had previously asserted that talk of collusion was “disgusting” and “so phony.” Kushner faces the deepest potential trouble so far because he currently works in the White House and neglected to mention the Russian encounter on forms he filled out for a background check to obtain a security clearance. He's more concerned about protecting himself than Father-in-law Trump. After Junior was outed by the NYT, Trump tweeted “My son is a high-quality person and I applaud his transparency”.

What a nest of traitorous lying snakes.

Little salt on your big nothing burger?

Just another case of you listening to the wrong news sources.

Doesn't the Bible instruct you to love your "enemies?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hysteria has gripped the camp of Trump haters.

Since they are lawyering up it's the camp of the WH that's hysterical.

And Evangelical supporters are hysterical too, laying on of hands and praying in the Oval (they are getting desperate):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-Office.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Since they are lawyering up it's the camp of the WH that's hysterical.

And Evangelical supporters are hysterical too, laying on of hands and praying in the Oval (they are getting desperate):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-Office.html

Glad to see you have changed your views of Pres. Trump -- from a prodigal to a believer, even praying on the job!

Thanks for sharing that.

__________________________________________________ _____


You should pray occasionally too bro. It's not really an "hysterical" thing to do.

Far better than the last guy in the WH, who looked to Mecca for answers.

.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Far better than the last guy in the WH, who looked to Mecca for answers.

.

He didn't pray toward Mecca 5 times a day. That's just silly. Unless, he was bad at everything, even at being a Muslim ... I guess you could say that. And he was a no count socialist too. You may as well say that too.

But, all presidents since FDR have had a lawyer. And the only one so far that didn't use their lawyer is Obama. Plus he was an ideal family man. He didn't fail at everything.

However, he did fail as a personality cult leader. Tho there still be some of his personality cult followers that want him back.

But I know with certainty you're not one of them. haha

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

He didn't pray toward Mecca 5 times a day. That's just silly. Unless, he was bad at everything, even at being a Muslim ... I guess you could say that.

However, he did fail as a personality cult leader. Tho there still be some of his personality cult followers that want him back.

How do you know how he prayed?

And I doubt that he failed as a personality cult leader. He's got a few followers here, and he's just starting to hit the trail again.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Little salt on your big nothing burger?

Just another case of you listening to the wrong news sources.

Doesn't the Bible insrtuct you to love your "enemies?"

I love you man.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Since they are lawyering up it's the camp of the WH that's hysterical.

And Evangelical supporters are hysterical too, laying on of hands and praying in the Oval (they are getting desperate):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-Office.html

That article reads like something out of the Onion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I love you man.

Ditto. It's too bad we can't meet for a cup of coffee.

[zeek]

Moore said Trump seemed to be "above the fray". That's funny. Trump is the fray.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ditto. It's too bad we can't meet for a cup of coffee.

I agree. Perhaps our embodied selves would be less inimical than our online personas. Next time you're in Tallahassee, look me up. Would Starbucks offend your conservative sensibility?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree. Perhaps our embodied selves would be less inimical than our online personas. Next time you're in Tallahassee, look me up. Would Starbucks offend your conservative sensibility?

I think you are right, and thanks for the offer.

But I do prefer Panera coffee, and am a gift-"card carrying member."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Moore said Trump seemed to be "above the fray". That's funny. Trump is the fray.

I happen to see things differently.

My neighbor was just in Europe, so I half-heartedly asked her if she saw Trump there. She commented that everywhere he goes is a "circus." So I explained how the media does this purposely in order to smear him. She almost believed me, saying it was an "interesting point of view."

But I do agree that Trump's abrasive personality often feeds the fire with gasoline.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

For months, Mr. Trump has dismissed suspicions of collusion between Russia and his team as “fake news” and a “total hoax.” Junior, likewise, had previously asserted that talk of collusion was “disgusting” and “so phony.” Kushner faces the deepest potential trouble so far because he currently works in the White House and neglected to mention the Russian encounter on forms he filled out for a background check to obtain a security clearance. He's more concerned about protecting himself than Father-in-law Trump. After Junior was outed by the NYT, Trump tweeted “My son is a high-quality person and I applaud his transparency”. What a nest of traitorous lying snakes.

I would agree that the latest news guarantees that at the very least this investigation has been justified and will continue to dog Trump for his entire term. It could be worse, but that is the best Trump can hope for.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think you are right, and thanks for the offer.

But I do prefer Panera coffee, and am a gift-"card carrying member."

.... ....

[awareness]

I read that since Jr. was outed there's lots of fervor in the WH, with Trump running around angry at everyone, for the flood of leaks. Seems Trump is angry that leaker's are revealing evidence that Trump is trying his damnedest to keep under wraps ; while he runs around claiming "nothing to see here, move on." Surely Robert Mueller is taking notice that, Trump's intentional cover up of such evidence is a strong indication of his guilt.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I read that since Jr. was outed there's lots of fervor in the WH, with Trump running around angry at everyone, for the flood of leaks. Seems Trump is angry that leaker's are revealing evidence that Trump is trying his damnedest to keep under wraps ; while he runs around claiming "nothing to see here, move on." Surely Robert Mueller is taking notice that, Trump's intentional cover up of such evidence is a strong indication of his guilt.

I think we can be confident that if there is something to find Mueller will find it. Till then I am glad to know this investigation is based on something real.

Obviously Trump has to lawyer up and it must be very disconcerting to everyone in the WH, but that isn't evidence of guilt, it's evidence of being investigated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I read that since Jr. was outed there's lots of fervor in the WH, with Trump running around angry at everyone, for the flood of leaks. Seems Trump is angry that leaker's are revealing evidence that Trump is trying his damnedest to keep under wraps ; while he runs around claiming "nothing to see here, move on." Surely Robert Mueller is taking notice that, Trump's intentional cover up of such evidence is a strong indication of his guilt.

Want some hot sauce on your Nothing Burger?

Though you have left the LC, you still believe so many lies. Have you never learned to discern the truth?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think we can be confident that if there is something to find Mueller will find it. Till then I am glad to know this investigation is based on something real.

Obviously Trump has to lawyer up and it must be very disconcerting to everyone in the WH, but that isn't evidence of guilt, it's evidence of being investigated.

Gingrich said it best, "the left passes by Bank Robbers to catch a conservative jay-walking."

If Mueller was an honest investigator, then he would not stack his office with ex-Clinton lawyers.

I guess I expected more objectivity from you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Want some hot sauce on your Nothing Burger?

Though you have left the LC, you still believe so many lies. Have you never learned to discern the truth?

Is that what you've done, discerned the truth? Interesting. Why doesn't Mueller, and all the intelligence agencies, just talk to you? How did you come by such top security clearances? Or is it divinely given?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is that what you've done, discerned the truth? Interesting. Why doesn't Mueller, and all the intelligence agencies, just talk to you? How did you come by such top security clearances? Or is it divinely given?

Mueller is running a deep state government hit job. Look at who he has hired.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mueller is running a deep state government hit job. Look at who he has hired.

Is that divinely given truth? I don't know any other way such truth can be discerned.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is that divinely given truth? I don't know any other way such truth can be discerned.

Yer a funny guy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yer a funny guy.

Thanks bro Ohio. I try to be. But really, we're all guilty of something like divine insight into the truth of what's going on ; both sides of the politics are guilty ; when none of us know that truth, nor can, except by some kind of divination.

For this reason I think politics is just another type of religion. You've got yours. I've got mine. And everyone else has theirs. And different political sects condemn the other political sects. Same, same, as religion ; very tribal (that still lingers on from our past primitive tribal days ; very primate like ; no divinity in it).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks bro Ohio. I try to be. But really, we're all guilty of something like divine insight into the truth of what's going on ; both sides of the politics are guilty ; when none of us know that truth, nor can, except by some kind of divination.

For this reason I think politics is just another type of religion. You've got yours. I've got mine. And everyone else has theirs. And different political sects condemn the other political sects. Same, same, as religion ; very tribal (that still lingers on from our past primitive tribal days ; very primate like ; no divinity in it).

I don't hide my faith or my views. I grew up a Kennedy democrat in the union town of Cleveland. I was Catholic, just like everyone else I knew. I was against the Republicans because they were the "party of the rich," and because Nixon was a liar, or so I was told by everyone around me.

Then Roe v. Wade got dumped on us, and all my Catholic, democratic, and "liberal" friends and family rejected it. It was murder. Murder of unborn, helpless, innocent victims. How could the Democrats espouse that? What else are they capable of? Moral, decent folks don't murder babies.

My point is simple. The Democrats continually push the envelope of morality. They force their people to make constant changes in the wrong direction. Most older Democrats felt their party left them long ago. The new chair of the DNC has established a party platform that would never support a pro-life candidate. How could any God-fearing person accept that?

The main stream media has followed the liberal cause at every step. Anyone who disagrees with them is vulnerable to their abuse. Everything is so out of balance. Anyone disagreeing is labeled a phobic and their words tagged as hate speech. Just an example concerning Hollywood -- recently Tim Allen's sitcom, the second highest rated, was canceled abruptly without warning. It made no sense. The reason? It was learned that Allen attended Trump's inauguration. So much for freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of action.

My question to you is this: Who's "religion" is intolerant? The conservatives or the liberals? Which side is whipping their adherents into a feverous frenzy? Which side has the violent fringe, subject to manipulation? Which side is promoting freedom and civil discourse?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Democrats continually push the envelope of morality.

Whereas Trump simply has none. Good point.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Whereas Trump simply has none. Good point.

That's quite a judgmental word. I guess you must be God, since only He could know that a man has no morals.

And I guess you missed that speech in Poland about our God-given rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My question to you is this: Who's "religion" is intolerant? The conservatives or the liberals? Which side is whipping their adherents into a feverous frenzy? Which side has the violent fringe, subject to manipulation? Which side is promoting freedom and civil discourse?

I rest my case. Your political sect, your tribe, are the white hats, and that other sect, that other tribe, are the very bad black hats (they're baby killers).

And by the way, I've watched every Tim Allen "Last Man Standing" from the pilot to the end. I love his show. It's not just a conservative leaning show, his family are Obama supporting Democrats. So both sides are presented.

And the show was not cancelled because Tim attended Trump's inauguration. Because I love the show, and hate that it's been cancelled, I looked into it. That reason for the cancellation is fake news (just another reason to condemn that other political sect, the tribe wearing the black hats -- a straw man, utilized to project badness onto your opposing sect/tribe).

All that aside, I really enjoyed your post, and that you opened up about why you are a conservative pubbie. Thanks. It helps to understand your political views.

But still ... I rest my case. Politics is a religion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And by the way, I've watched every Tim Allen "Last Man Standing" from the pilot to the end. I love his show. It's not just a conservative leaning show, his family are Obama supporting Democrats. So both sides are presented.

And the show was not cancelled because Tim attended Trump's inauguration. Because I love the show, and hate that it's been cancelled, I looked into it. That reason for the cancellation is fake news (just another reason to condemn that other political sect, the tribe wearing the black hats -- a straw man, utilized to project badness onto your opposing sect/tribe).

They gave no reason. What did you hear?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They gave no reason. What did you hear?

This is a good starting place :
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...sponds-1004414

[awareness]

Don't blame Jr., blame Obama :

“Now the lawyer that went to the meeting, I see that she was in the halls of Congress also. Somebody said that her visa or her passport to come into the country was approved by Attorney General [Loretta] Lynch. Now, maybe that's wrong, because I just heard about that a little while ago, but I was a little surprised to hear that: She's here because of Lynch.”
~DJT

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Don't blame Jr., blame Obama :

“Now the lawyer that went to the meeting, I see that she was in the halls of Congress also. Somebody said that her visa or her passport to come into the country was approved by Attorney General [Loretta] Lynch. Now, maybe that's wrong, because I just heard about that a little while ago, but I was a little surprised to hear that: She's here because of Lynch.”
~DJT

Why would Lynch let this Russian in. Something smells stinky here.

I'd bet that it was Lynch's folks who leaked the DJTjr emails to the NYT.

She's dirty, but she set him up. The Dems, the Media, and intelligence all cooperated with her like they have done before.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Don't blame Jr., blame Obama :
[COLOR="DarkRed"]

I detect that you are a very talented and skillful lawyer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is a good starting place :
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...sponds-1004414

I saw this. Hollywood never cancels a show that makes them money, unless their "religious" beliefs take over.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Gingrich said it best, "the left passes by Bank Robbers to catch a conservative jay-walking."

If Mueller was an honest investigator, then he would not stack his office with ex-Clinton lawyers.

I guess I expected more objectivity from you.

Jr has agreed that the emails are authentic, that he had the meeting, and that the purpose of the meeting was to get information from the Russians who hacked the democrats email.

None of this convicts him of a crime but it does justify the need for an investigation.

I have no problem with Trump and his associates lawyering up and am happy to give them the presumption of innocence. But at this stage their is sufficient undisputed evidence for me to justify the investigation.

BTW since when did Gingrich become so emasculated that he can't get an investigation by the senate of the Democrats or Lynch? This is not an either or, we can have both. Let's make America great again and have both investigations!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I saw this. Hollywood never cancels a show that makes them money, unless their "religious" beliefs take over.

"I canceled Last Man Standing for the same business and scheduling reasons that I canceled Dr. Ken, The Real O'Neals, The Catch and American Crime," ABC Entertainment president Channing Dungey told reporters . . ."

Other than that we can't see into the minds of the ABC deciders. All we can do is project into their minds what we think their reasons are.

And that projection, more times than not, just ends up being a product of our own particular political religious sect, either lefty or righty ... both do it.

Other than that all we have is what ABC says. And they don't mention the Trump Tim Allen collusion -

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's quite a judgmental word. I guess you must be God, since only He could know that a man has no morals.

And I guess you missed that speech in Poland about our God-given rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

Judgmental or discerning? Probably Bannon or Miller wrote that speech. Trump is sincerely concerned about his own life, liberty and happiness. Beyond that...that's just bull**** rhetoric. You know that. C'mon.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why would Lynch let this Russian in. Something smells stinky here.

I'd bet that it was Lynch's folks who leaked the DJTjr emails to the NYT.

She's dirty, but she set him up. The Dems, the Media, and intelligence all cooperated with her like they have done before.

The State Department handles that not Lynch. How many times will you fall for Trump's diversion tactic? You've worked around sociopaths, you should recognize these games.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Jr has agreed that the emails are authentic, that he had the meeting, and that the purpose of the meeting was to get information from the Russians who hacked the democrats email.

None of this convicts him of a crime but it does justify the need for an investigation.

I have no problem with Trump and his associates lawyering up and am happy to give them the presumption of innocence. But at this stage their is sufficient undisputed evidence for me to justify the investigation.

BTW since when did Gingrich become so emasculated that he can't get an investigation by the senate of the Democrats or Lynch? This is not an either or, we can have both. Let's make America great again and have both investigations!

Gingrich is a private citizen, author, news contributor, consultant. How is he supposed to arrange such investigations?

And what proof do you have that this lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, who sent the emails, was sent by the Russian Government. She appears to have endless connections to Democratic officials, for example California Rep. Ron Dellums was a hired lobbyist for her, and she worked for years on a case with Glenn Simpson, the founder of Fusion GPS, a firm that produced a widely discredited dossier against Trump. She also worked with Christopher Cooper, the founder and CEO of Potomac Square Group, which has had Democratic clients including California Government Jerry Brown, Democratic presidential nominee Howard Dean, and Joe Trippi, according to the Daily Caller. And it was Obama’s Attorney General Loretta Lynch that granted her an extension in late 2015 to stay in the U.S. after her visa was due to expire, under “extraordinary circumstances.” Four days after her meeting with Trump Jr. on June 9, 2016, she was in Washington, D.C. for a movie screening of an anti-Magnitsky Act film at the Newseum with at least five congressional staffers and State Department officials.

She is dirty, Donald Jr. is not.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The State Department handles that not Lynch. How many times will you fall for Trump's diversion tactic? You've worked around sociopaths, you should recognize these games.

The State Dept. turned down her Visa application. Lynch signed off on special access.

Have another cup of covfefe, and get your facts straight.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Judgmental or discerning? Probably Bannon or Miller wrote that speech. Trump is sincerely concerned about his own life, liberty and happiness. Beyond that...that's just bull**** rhetoric. You know that. C'mon.

Thats cause you are drunk on the fake news hate speech you been drinkin for the last year.

Let me recommend a fake news fast to detox your system.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The State Dept. turned down her Visa application. Lynch signed off on special access.

Have another cup of covfefe, and get your facts straight.

Did she? Even Trump admitted it was merely what "somebody said" and added "Now, maybe that's wrong. I just heard that a little while ago". But, he threw out a hated name to divert attention from Junior. And look, in your case it worked!

[awareness]

Trump's Nothing-burger is turning into a Whopper :

"WASHINGTON
Investigators at the House and Senate Intelligence committees and the Justice Department are examining whether the Trump campaign’s digital operation – overseen by Jared Kushner – helped guide Russia’s sophisticated voter targeting and fake news attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Congressional and Justice Department investigators are focusing on whether Trump’s campaign pointed Russian cyber operatives to certain voting jurisdictions in key states ..."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nati...160803619.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Gingrich is a private citizen, author, news contributor, consultant. How is he supposed to arrange such investigations?

And what proof do you have that this lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, who sent the emails, was sent by the Russian Government. She appears to have endless connections to Democratic officials, for example California Rep. Ron Dellums was a hired lobbyist for her, and she worked for years on a case with Glenn Simpson, the founder of Fusion GPS, a firm that produced a widely discredited dossier against Trump. She also worked with Christopher Cooper, the founder and CEO of Potomac Square Group, which has had Democratic clients including California Government Jerry Brown, Democratic presidential nominee Howard Dean, and Joe Trippi, according to the Daily Caller. And it was Obama’s Attorney General Loretta Lynch that granted her an extension in late 2015 to stay in the U.S. after her visa was due to expire, under “extraordinary circumstances.” Four days after her meeting with Trump Jr. on June 9, 2016, she was in Washington, D.C. for a movie screening of an anti-Magnitsky Act film at the Newseum with at least five congressional staffers and State Department officials.

She is dirty, Donald Jr. is not.

On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Rob Goldstone wrote:
Good morning
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.
The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.
What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?
I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.
Best
Rob Goldstone

On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:53, Donald Trump Jr. wrote:
Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?
Best,
Don

This is the email exchange that preceded their meeting. This is enough to warrant an investigation.

As for Gingrich he was rebuked for an ethics violation, that's why he resigned from Speaker of the House. He therefore should know that the House and Senate can authorize and conduct investigations of Lynch.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And what proof do you have that this lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, who sent the emails, was sent by the Russian Government.

Proof? Haha. As if the evidence is all in. But add this to this Something Burger :

Revealed: Ex-Soviet SPY was at the meeting Don Jr held with Russian lawyer - and intelligence services believe mystery man STILL has links to Kremlin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-meeting.html

[awareness]

Fox News Politics :

"Heads will roll after Trump Jr. leaks, Corey Lewandowski says"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...wski-says.html

Note : "Axios reports there’s considerable anger on the Trump team over who leaked the information to the Times in the first place."

So team Trump is upset that it was discovered that they were hiding evidence from an ongoing investigation?

[awareness]

It just keeps on coming. It's even blowing Fox's mind :

"'Why is it lie after lie after lie?': Fox News anchor goes off on Trump administration..."

"Wallace also seemed to make an appeal to those defending the Trump Jr. meeting.

"This really shouldn't be a matter of liberal vs. conservative, pro-Trump vs. anti-Trump," Wallace said. "If you're a fair-minded citizen, you ought to be concerned about the fact that we were repeatedly misled about what this meeting concerned.""
http://www.businessinsider.com/shep-...ox-news-2017-7

[awareness]

Hey folks, this Something Burger is still hoppin'. In fact, every morning I wake up never knowing what to expect will be coming out of the WH, and new revelations coming to light - and tweets coming from our Puffer-Fish-in-Chief.

Way to many to report out here. The forum server couldn't handle it. In fact : "if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

But at least it's entertaining. And Puffer-Fish hasn't lied us into a war. Not yet anyway.

[zeek]

"Donald Trump, champion and avatar of the shallow state, has won power because his supporters are threatened by what they don’t understand, and what they don’t understand is almost everything. Indeed, from evolution to data about our economy to the science of vaccines to the threats we face in the world, they reject vast subjects rooted in fact in order to have reality conform to their worldviews. They don’t dig for truth; they skim the media for anything that makes them feel better about themselves. To many of them, knowledge is not a useful tool but a cunning barrier elites have created to keep power from the average man and woman. The same is true for experience, skills, and know-how. These things require time and work and study and often challenge our systems of belief. Truth is hard; shallowness is easy."

David Rothkopf is visiting professor at Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Donald Trump, champion and avatar of the shallow state, has won power because his supporters are threatened by what they don’t understand, and what they don’t understand is almost everything. Indeed, from evolution to data about our economy to the science of vaccines to the threats we face in the world, they reject vast subjects rooted in fact in order to have reality conform to their worldviews. They don’t dig for truth; they skim the media for anything that makes them feel better about themselves. To many of them, knowledge is not a useful tool but a cunning barrier elites have created to keep power from the average man and woman. The same is true for experience, skills, and know-how. These things require time and work and study and often challenge our systems of belief. Truth is hard; shallowness is easy."

David Rothkopf is visiting professor at Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs

According to PETA, nearly 50% of American's don't know where chocolate milk comes from:

https://www.peta.org/blog/american-a...om-brown-cows/

I think Trump would be one of them, given his kooky views on fast food and fitness.

[zeek]

Will Sen. Lisa Murkowski fall for the Kodiak Kickback?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Will Sen. Lisa Murkowski fall for the Kodiak Kickback?

I'd like to hear from Jim on that, and other Trump matters. Jim is Trump's invisible friend.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'd like to hear from Jim on that, and other Trump matters. Jim is Trump's invisible friend.

If Trump's presidency fails, in Trump's final analysis, it will be Jim's fault. But, not to worry, Jim will outlive Trump and have the last laugh.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Trump's presidency fails, in Trump's final analysis, it will be Jim's fault. But, not to worry, Jim will outlive Trump and have the last laugh.

That has to be true, cuz Trump says "Jim is “a very, very substantial guy.”"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Trump's presidency fails, in Trump's final analysis, it will be Jim's fault.

If Trump's presidency fails, in the final analysis it will be our fault. The only reason we elected him was because of how rotten and poor our political leaders had become. We never dealt with Lyndon Johnson and his box 13 scandal! We never dealt with the assassins who killed JFK! Watergate! Iran Contra! Snowden! It is rotten through and through and that is our fault.

In a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

[ZNPaaneah]

The Fake news just gets worse and worse. Now its the Wall Street Journal's editorial board.

“The Trumps and the Truth,”

Accusing the Trumps of creating the appearance of a conspiracy.

NYT, CNN -- I get. But WSJ?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If Trump's presidency fails, in the final analysis it will be our fault. The only reason we elected him was because of how rotten and poor our political leaders had become. We never dealt with Lyndon Johnson and his box 13 scandal! We never dealt with the assassins who killed JFK! Watergate! Iran Contra! Snowden! It is rotten through and through and that is our fault.

In a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

Eventually democracy becomes what the rich deserve.

[zeek]

With the collapse of the Obamacare repeal, Trump wasted political capital, squandered his reputation for deal-making, and showed himself to be a poor strategist and tactician, but still, it's never his fault.

[ZNPaaneah]

Stephanopoulos: "Are there any ties between Mr. Trump, you or your campaign and Putin and his regime?"
Manafort: "No, there are not. That's absurd. And, you know, there's no basis to it." (July 24, 2016)

Tapper: "(Robby Mook) seemed to be suggesting that this is part of a plot to help Donald Trump and hurt Hillary Clinton. Your response?"
Trump Jr.: "Well, it just goes to show you their exact moral compass. I mean, they will say anything to be able to win this.*I mean, this is time and time again, lie after lie. You notice he won't say, 'Well, I say this.' We hear 'experts.' You know,*'His house cat at home once said that this is what's happening with the Russians.'*It's disgusting. It's so phony. I watched him bumble through the interview, I was able to hear it on audio a little bit. I mean, I can't think of bigger lies, but that exactly goes to show you what the DNC and what the Clinton camp will do.*They will lie and do anything to win." (July 24, 2016)

Hope Hicks, then-spokesperson for Trump's campaign, told The Associated Press there was no contact between the Trump campaign and Russian representatives.
"It never happened," Hicks told The AP. "There was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign." (November 11, 2016)

Top aide Kellyanne Conway answered "absolutely not" when asked by CBS' John Dickerson if there was contact with "Russians trying to meddle with the election."
"Absolutely not," Conway said. "And I discussed that with the President-elect just last night. Those conversations never happened.*I hear people saying it like it's a fact on television. That is just not only inaccurate and false, but it's dangerous and it does undermine our democracy." (December 18, 2016)

Mike Pence issued a blanket denial to Chris Wallace on Fox News.
Wallace: "I'm asking a direct question: Was there any contact in any way between Trump or his associates and the Kremlin or contacts they had?"
Pence: "I joined this campaign in the summer, and I can tell you that all the contact by the Trump campaign and associates was with the American people. We were fully engaged with taking his message to make America great again all across this country. That's why he won in a landslide election."
Wallace: "... if there were any contacts, sir, I'm just trying to get an answer."
Pence: "Yes. I -- of course not.*Why would there*be any contacts between the campaign? Chris, the -- this is all a distraction, and it's all part of a narrative to delegitimize the election and to question the legitimacy of this presidency. The American people see right through it."
Pence later repeated that "of course" there had not been contact between the Trump campaign and Russia in an interview with CBS' Dickerson. (Jan 15, 2017)

Trump Jr. told The New York Times that he did not have any meetings with Russians that were "set up."
"Did I meet with people that were Russian? I'm sure, I'm sure I did," Trump Jr. said. "But none that were set up. None that I can think of at the moment. And certainly none that I was representing the campaign in any way, shape or form." (March 2017)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Stephanopoulos: "Are there any ties between Mr. Trump, you or your campaign and Putin and his regime?"
Manafort: "No, there are not. That's absurd. And, you know, there's no basis to it." (July 24, 2016)

Tapper: "(Robby Mook) seemed to be suggesting that this is part of a plot to help Donald Trump and hurt Hillary Clinton. Your response?"
Trump Jr.: "Well, it just goes to show you their exact moral compass. I mean, they will say anything to be able to win this.*I mean, this is time and time again, lie after lie. You notice he won't say, 'Well, I say this.' We hear 'experts.' You know,*'His house cat at home once said that this is what's happening with the Russians.'*It's disgusting. It's so phony. I watched him bumble through the interview, I was able to hear it on audio a little bit. I mean, I can't think of bigger lies, but that exactly goes to show you what the DNC and what the Clinton camp will do.*They will lie and do anything to win." (July 24, 2016)

Hope Hicks, then-spokesperson for Trump's campaign, told The Associated Press there was no contact between the Trump campaign and Russian representatives.
"It never happened," Hicks told The AP. "There was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign." (November 11, 2016)

Top aide Kellyanne Conway answered "absolutely not" when asked by CBS' John Dickerson if there was contact with "Russians trying to meddle with the election."
"Absolutely not," Conway said. "And I discussed that with the President-elect just last night. Those conversations never happened.*I hear people saying it like it's a fact on television. That is just not only inaccurate and false, but it's dangerous and it does undermine our democracy." (December 18, 2016)

Mike Pence issued a blanket denial to Chris Wallace on Fox News.
Wallace: "I'm asking a direct question: Was there any contact in any way between Trump or his associates and the Kremlin or contacts they had?"
Pence: "I joined this campaign in the summer, and I can tell you that all the contact by the Trump campaign and associates was with the American people. We were fully engaged with taking his message to make America great again all across this country. That's why he won in a landslide election."
Wallace: "... if there were any contacts, sir, I'm just trying to get an answer."
Pence: "Yes. I -- of course not.*Why would there*be any contacts between the campaign? Chris, the -- this is all a distraction, and it's all part of a narrative to delegitimize the election and to question the legitimacy of this presidency. The American people see right through it."
Pence later repeated that "of course" there had not been contact between the Trump campaign and Russia in an interview with CBS' Dickerson. (Jan 15, 2017)

Trump Jr. told The New York Times that he did not have any meetings with Russians that were "set up."
"Did I meet with people that were Russian? I'm sure, I'm sure I did," Trump Jr. said. "But none that were set up. None that I can think of at the moment. And certainly none that I was representing the campaign in any way, shape or form." (March 2017)

Can you please put together one of these for Hillary Clinton signing off on the Uranium One deal with the Russians, and show where all the money went.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you please put together one of these for Hillary Clinton signing off on the Uranium One deal with the Russians, and show where all the money went.

I would gladly read it if you put it together. I'm not saying these guys are worse than Clinton. I just don't like being lied to. That goes for Clinton every bit as much as it does for Trump's associates.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Stephanopoulos: "Are there any ties between Mr. Trump, you or your campaign and Putin and his regime?"
Manafort: "No, there are not. That's absurd. And, you know, there's no basis to it." (July 24, 2016)

Tapper: "(Robby Mook) seemed to be suggesting that this is part of a plot to help Donald Trump and hurt Hillary Clinton. Your response?"
Trump Jr.: "Well, it just goes to show you their exact moral compass. I mean, they will say anything to be able to win this.*I mean, this is time and time again, lie after lie. You notice he won't say, 'Well, I say this.' We hear 'experts.' You know,*'His house cat at home once said that this is what's happening with the Russians.'*It's disgusting. It's so phony. I watched him bumble through the interview, I was able to hear it on audio a little bit. I mean, I can't think of bigger lies, but that exactly goes to show you what the DNC and what the Clinton camp will do.*They will lie and do anything to win." (July 24, 2016)

Hope Hicks, then-spokesperson for Trump's campaign, told The Associated Press there was no contact between the Trump campaign and Russian representatives.
"It never happened," Hicks told The AP. "There was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign." (November 11, 2016)

Top aide Kellyanne Conway answered "absolutely not" when asked by CBS' John Dickerson if there was contact with "Russians trying to meddle with the election."
"Absolutely not," Conway said. "And I discussed that with the President-elect just last night. Those conversations never happened.*I hear people saying it like it's a fact on television. That is just not only inaccurate and false, but it's dangerous and it does undermine our democracy." (December 18, 2016)

Mike Pence issued a blanket denial to Chris Wallace on Fox News.
Wallace: "I'm asking a direct question: Was there any contact in any way between Trump or his associates and the Kremlin or contacts they had?"
Pence: "I joined this campaign in the summer, and I can tell you that all the contact by the Trump campaign and associates was with the American people. We were fully engaged with taking his message to make America great again all across this country. That's why he won in a landslide election."
Wallace: "... if there were any contacts, sir, I'm just trying to get an answer."
Pence: "Yes. I -- of course not.*Why would there*be any contacts between the campaign? Chris, the -- this is all a distraction, and it's all part of a narrative to delegitimize the election and to question the legitimacy of this presidency. The American people see right through it."
Pence later repeated that "of course" there had not been contact between the Trump campaign and Russia in an interview with CBS' Dickerson. (Jan 15, 2017)

Trump Jr. told The New York Times that he did not have any meetings with Russians that were "set up."
"Did I meet with people that were Russian? I'm sure, I'm sure I did," Trump Jr. said. "But none that were set up. None that I can think of at the moment. And certainly none that I was representing the campaign in any way, shape or form." (March 2017)

Read this again. Still don't see any "there there."

[zeek]

Congress sent a challenge to Putin Puppet Trump:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Republicans and Democrats have reached agreement on legislation that allows new sanctions against Russia, Iran and North Korea, leading congressional Democrats said on Saturday, in a bill that would limit any potential effort by President Donald Trump to try to lift sanctions against Moscow. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN1A70L0

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Congress sent a challenge to Putin Puppet Trump:

He's a puppet? I thought it was supposed to be one of those Russian nesting dolls?

[awareness]

Welcome to third world healthcare, here in America:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-hospital.html

[zeek]

I haven't read Trump's book, but there's a meme floating around that in it Trump says that being an atheist gave him an edge over Christians. Snopes says it's false. It does seem to be true in reality for some though.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-w...business-edge/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I haven't read Trump's book, but there's a meme floating around that in it Trump says that being an atheist gave him an edge over Christians. Snopes says it's false. It does seem to be true in reality for some though.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-w...business-edge/

I thought what really helped him with the Christians was that he wasn't Hillary.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I haven't read Trump's book, but there's a meme floating around that in it Trump says that being an atheist gave him an edge over Christians. Snopes says it's false. It does seem to be true in reality for some though.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-w...business-edge/

Reason #27 Why Hillary lost.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Welcome to third world healthcare, here in America:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-hospital.html

This is the story they never talk about -- hard working Americans who make too much money to get ObamaCare. That's why they voted for Trump.

Obama gave free health care to those who refused to work, those on welfare, and illegal aliens. These ones are the folks who are left out. They want a better life for American citizens, not for foreigners. They want to work. They voted for Trump.

That's what makes this news blurb so disingenuous. Fake news anyone?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is the story they never talk about -- hard working Americans who make too much money to get ObamaCare. That's why they voted for Trump.

Obama gave free health care to those who refused to work, those on welfare, and illegal aliens. These ones are the folks who are left out. They want a better life for American citizens, not for foreigners. They want to work. They voted for Trump.

That's what makes this news blurb so disingenuous. Fake news anyone?

It is idiotic. Expand medicare so that everyone, rich and poor get a certain minimum standard care. Then, because it is a free, capitalist country, allow special business "perks" or Aflac like insurance to include "platinum care".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is the story they never talk about -- hard working Americans who make too much money to get ObamaCare. That's why they voted for Trump.

Obama gave free health care to those who refused to work, those on welfare, and illegal aliens. These ones are the folks who are left out. They want a better life for American citizens, not for foreigners. They want to work. They voted for Trump.

That's what makes this news blurb so disingenuous. Fake news anyone?

Okay. All that. But is it really fake news? Is it really like the Bowling Green Massacre here in Kentucky? Or like "Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering" as the World Trade Center collapsed"?

I agree people can see things that aren't really there. Is this one of them?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is idiotic. Expand medicare so that everyone, rich and poor get a certain minimum standard care. Then, because it is a free, capitalist country, allow special business "perks" or Aflac like insurance to include "platinum care".

Just get it over with and go with a single payer healthcare system. If government can control what insurance can and can't do there ain't no capitalism in it. It's already a fascist type of socialism. Just go with democratic socialism, like so many others. Like our neighbor to the north.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just get it over with and go with a single payer healthcare system. If government can control what insurance can and can't do there ain't no capitalism in it. It's already a fascist type of socialism. Just go with democratic socialism, like so many others. Like our neighbor to the north.

Medicare is socialism, like Canada, UK, and Taiwan. Three workable models.

Govt controlled is not "Fascist". Get your isms straight.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay. All that. But is it really fake news? Is it really like the Bowling Green Massacre here in Kentucky? Or like "Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering" as the World Trade Center collapsed"?

I agree people can see things that aren't really there. Is this one of them?

Ohio wasn't saying that this was fake news, he was saying that the news is ignoring the real situation for many hard working americans while they trash Trump, not reporting what Obama's term in office did to many.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Ohio wasn't saying that this was fake news, he was saying that the news is ignoring the real situation for many hard working americans while they trash Trump, not reporting what Obama's term in office did to many.

By all means let's focus on anything but the unprecedentedly lousy job Trump is doing as POTUS.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is idiotic. Expand medicare so that everyone, rich and poor get a certain minimum standard care. Then, because it is a free, capitalist country, allow special business "perks" or Aflac like insurance to include "platinum care".

People voted for Trump because they want to work for a living, and they hate seeing others, including illegals, milk the system for freebies.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just get it over with and go with a single payer healthcare system. If government can control what insurance can and can't do there ain't no capitalism in it. It's already a fascist type of socialism. Just go with democratic socialism, like so many others. Like our neighbor to the north.

Obama Care was doomed because only the poor get benefits.

Trump Care is failing because freebies must be taken away from the poor.

We cannot have Single Payer and also maintain state of the art care. Right now US healthcare industry brings in $Billions, with wealthy people all over the world coming here for care unavailable anywhere else.

Those who cry for Single Payer never took an economics course. Single Payer demands the same lousy health care for all. Except for the well-connected, of course.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

By all means let's focus on anything but the unprecedentedly lousy job Trump is doing as POTUS.

Those who know what Trump has already accomplished, give him very high ratings.

Like I said, it all depends on where you get your news.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

By all means let's focus on anything but the unprecedentedly lousy job Trump is doing as POTUS.

How exactly are we to "focus on Trump's deficiencies" if we are blind to the dysfunction of our government?

I am not happy with the direction the government has taken, but it didn't begin with Trump and removing him doesn't solve anything as far as I can see. Let Mueller do the investigation, but regardless of the outcome, the problems with our government are much deeper than Trump.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Those who know what Trump has already accomplished, give him very high ratings.

Like I said, it all depends on where you get your news.

Are you talking about the tons of legislation he's signed into law ... they are like the inflated numbers of his inauguration.