See whatever in Revelation

[awareness]

I dragged this over from the Trinity thread

Originally Posted by manna-man

Yes indeed. And the following chapters drive the point home.��

And the cement would be Revelation chapter 22:


Revelation 22

I guess I bring this up because of what I was taught about Revelation growing up, and by how Witness Lee used it to support that he was the MOTA.

It's become obvious to me that, the book can be used to support whatever you want to see in it.

I guess that's why I'm so bewitched by what believers see in it.

The latest is : the end is 3 days away. The Sun, Moon, and Jupiter will align in the constellation Virgo on the 23rd. Prophecy nuts see the beginning of end there, cuz it aligns with Rev. 12.

"Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*. . . "

Manna-man, and Ohio, see Jesus is God in it. Okay. Good. I'm interested in whatever others see in it.

It says at the end of the book that if anyone changes the book they will be cursed, but the textual issue isn't the problem (it's been changed over 300 times over the ages, manuscript evidence reveals).

The problem is all the changes of the book that happen by seeing into it whatever you want to see, at any given moment in time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's become obvious to me that, the book can be used to support whatever you want to see in it.

I guess that's why I'm so bewitched by what believers see in it.

The latest is : the end is 3 days away. The Sun, Moon, and Jupiter will align in the constellation Virgo on the 23rd. Prophecy nuts see the beginning of end there, cuz it aligns with Rev. 12.

"Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*. . . "

Manna-man, and Ohio, see Jesus is God in it. Okay. Good. I'm interested in whatever others see in it.

It says at the end of the book that if anyone changes the book they will be cursed, but the textual issue isn't the problem (it's been changed over 300 times over the ages, manuscript evidence reveals).

The problem is all the changes of the book that happen by seeing into it whatever you want to see, at any given moment in time.

What?

You still got a beef with manna-man?

I tire of your end time prophecies. Own your own. Please leave me out of your wild speculations.

[manna-man]

Awareness, did I change the book?

Our beef has been over I hope.

But I would be interested in Awareness clarifying how I used Rev 22 in that post that he quoted as "whatever."

Am I wrong in my interpretation? Either way, please clarify what you are implying. Otherwise I'm way off in LaLa land again.( Implied)
And if I am, please point me in the right direction if you are able.

I sure hope this thread don't detract from Zeeks awesome thread.
But I will note that this thread by it's very title expresses exactly the spirit of awareness.
Casting doubt once again on the very instrament which pointed him to the creator.

Not for nothing but What's next?

See whatever in Genesis
See whatever in Exodus
See whatever in Leviticus
See whatever in Numbers,...ect...

(Seeing what I see...)
Peace

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

I dragged this over from the Trinity thread



I guess I bring this up because of what I was taught about Revelation growing up, and by how Witness Lee used it to support that he was the MOTA.

It's become obvious to me that, the book can be used to support whatever you want to see in it.

I guess that's why I'm so bewitched by what believers see in it.

The latest is : the end is 3 days away. The Sun, Moon, and Jupiter will align in the constellation Virgo on the 23rd. Prophecy nuts see the beginning of end there, cuz it aligns with Rev. 12.

"Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*. . . "

Manna-man, and Ohio, see Jesus is God in it. Okay. Good. I'm interested in whatever others see in it.

It says at the end of the book that if anyone changes the book they will be cursed, but the textual issue isn't the problem (it's been changed over 300 times over the ages, manuscript evidence reveals).

The problem is all the changes of the book that happen by seeing into it whatever you want to see, at any given moment in time.

Awareness,

The alignment that matches the exact alignment of those same celestial bodies (and the alpha “King” star in the “King” constellation Leo” as the crown) around Jesus’ birth occurred on September 23rd 2017. Google or YouTube it. It came and went. At Jesus birth the king planet Jupiter went into retrograde and literally stirred in Virgos womb for 9 mo before exiting.

I don’t find fault for believers anticipating the Lords return. Those who love Him so will be looking around every corner in anticipation of His return as someone once said. To speculate is human but it’s a mistake to rest our faith on those external matters. Could something have happened on Sept 23 or will happen on April 23rd. Sure, why not? We are limited in what we can see with our eyes. Only the Father knows the day or the hour. Even those (Scribes, priests) who received the prophecies missed his first coming and the Magi, descendants of the order Daniel headed up, received the honor using those same celestial bodies and events to guide them to the recently born King.

In fairness, there is some biblical support for the heavens declaring the gospel as Paul indicates in Romans 10:18 citing Psalms 19:4. The “line” being the path of the sun through the constellations... that includes Virgo, the virgin, and Leo, the King. The subject has been dealt with by Ernest Martins book “ The Star that Astonished the World”.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I dragged this over from the Trinity thread



I guess I bring this up because of what I was taught about Revelation growing up, and by how Witness Lee used it to support that he was the MOTA.

It's become obvious to me that, the book can be used to support whatever you want to see in it.

I guess that's why I'm so bewitched by what believers see in it.

The latest is : the end is 3 days away. The Sun, Moon, and Jupiter will align in the constellation Virgo on the 23rd. Prophecy nuts see the beginning of end there, cuz it aligns with Rev. 12.

"Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*. . . "

Manna-man, and Ohio, see Jesus is God in it. Okay. Good. I'm interested in whatever others see in it.

It says at the end of the book that if anyone changes the book they will be cursed, but the textual issue isn't the problem (it's been changed over 300 times over the ages, manuscript evidence reveals).

The problem is all the changes of the book that happen by seeing into it whatever you want to see, at any given moment in time.

I thought virgo had 29 stars?

Also, since when is Jupiter considered a woman in any kind of typology?

Northern Crown, or Corona Borealis, is a constellation in the sky that represents the golden crown given by Aphrodite to Ariadne as a wedding gift when she married Dionysus on Naxos Island. (Ancient Greek Beliefs, Perry L. Westmoreland). But it only has 8 stars.

From what I can gather virgo is considered the woman, the crown of 12 stars is much more vague (some are saying the 12 constellations -- seems lame). The big problem I see with an astrological explanation of this is that it would contradict the "no one knows the day nor the hour" word.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Awareness, did I change the book?

Nah. I think you're like me and haven't even gotten close to any of the Greek manuscripts of the books of the NT. Besides, since the Greek manuscripts, of Revelation and all other NT books, are no longer copied by hand, we no longer have scribes meddling with the text. There are multiple canons of the Bible today, but they are now all fixed.

The problem is deeper. When coping by hand the scribes made mistakes, and some of them added, deleted, or changed, the manuscript they were copying. So the manuscripts of the NT, and the book of Revelation, don't agree. None of the over 5500 manuscripts -- some the size of a credit card -- of the NT, agree with each other.

Then after all that, the end problem, particularly with the book of Revelation, gets out of hand when interpreting the book.

Originally Posted by MM

Our beef has been over I hope.

Where's the beef? Your hope has been rewarded.

Originally Posted by MM

But I would be interested in Awareness clarifying how I used Rev 22 in that post that he quoted as "whatever."

I don't think it's you. I dislike verse salads, but I bear with them. I read all your Rev 22 verse salad posted on the Trinity thread.

And WOW!!! What the hell does it all mean? The imagination can't contain or cipher it. All kinds of things can be see in it ... and has for around 1900 years.

So bro manna-man, if you are seeing 'whatever' in Revelation you're not doing anything that hasn't been done already.

Sorry if that doesn't answer your quandary, but that's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by MM

Am I wrong in my interpretation?

Given that there's no way to determine if a interpretation is wrong or right, how can I, or we, determine if your interpretation is wrong? You see what you see in it. I don't know what I see. It's all too wild to come to any certainty about what it means. Thus we can see 'whatever' in it.

Originally Posted by MM

Either way, please clarify what you are implying. Otherwise I'm way off in LaLa land again.( Implied)

Well if you're in LaLa land you're in good company. It can't be helped. Couldn't the book of Revelation be called LaLa land?

Originally Posted by MM

And if I am, please point me in the right direction if you are able.

I wouldn't know what direction to point you too. Sorry. Methinks you're on your own.

Originally Posted by MMI sure hope this thread don't detract from Zeeks awesome thread.
But I will note that this thread by it's very title expresses exactly the spirit of awareness.
Casting doubt once again on the very instrament which pointed him to the creator.[/quote

I hope it doesn't impede on the Trinity thread too.

And thinks for your concern about my spirit. Sorry about my doubts. I just seeks the facts.

But the instrument that pointed me to my creator wasn't the Bible. That instrument was the Southern Baptist church ; that did that before I could even read the book.

quote=MM]Not for nothing but What's next?

See whatever in Genesis
See whatever in Exodus
See whatever in Leviticus
See whatever in Numbers,...ect...

(Seeing what I see...)

All of the books of the Bible are subject to whatever we see in them. And since there are over 33,000 sects of Christianity, a great many see many different things in them.

Originally Posted by MM

Peace

Yes peace. Thank you Jesus.

[awareness]

All kinds of things can be seen in Revelation.

I remember Lee saw the historical development of the church in the seven churches in Asia.

The notion was prolly seen in it earlier, but Nee and Lee got it from the Plymouth Brethren Andrew Miller, in Miller's Church History.

Miller saw the seven churches as literal churches in Asia at the time the book was written, but also saw them as prophetic. Cuz he read in the 3rd verse, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy . . ."

This is a clear example of Miller seeing what he wanted to see. And what he didn't want to see.

As he clearly turned a blind eye to the rest of the verse, that ends with "for the time is at hand."

I admit I fell for Lee's rundown of the 7 churches, as historical progression. I bought into it to the point of reading Miller's Church History. Moreover, I spent the last couple of years in the LC burdened by the Lord to save the LC from falling from Philadelphia into Laodicea.

But I didn't see that in Revelation because it's what I wanted to see. I saw it because it's what Lee, and Andrew Miller, wanted me to see. I was seeing what they wanted me to see.

So it goes. And story grow larger on down the line ... and wilder. What the readers saw in it at the end of the first century, clearly the intended audience -- "must soon come to pass" -- on the whole hasn't been passed down to us. Preterists try to see in it, what it referred to during those times, but are guessing.

Their view is not mainstream. What has happened instead is that generations want to see it relating to them and their times. And of course they are seeing whatever they want to see in it.

For some today, there's no reason to worry. Cuz they see in it that the beginning of the end -- "must soon come to pass" -- starts tomorrow ... when they see Rev 12 coming to pass, in the signs in the heavens.

Seems misanthropes will see and justify their hatred of humankind in it. But they won't see that Jesus in the book doesn't live up to his teachings in the gospels.

The book is clearly a see whatever you want to see in it kind of book. To the point that, whatever believers see in it can't be trusted ... nor can I trust whatever I see in it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is a clear example of Miller seeing what he wanted to see. And what he didn't want to see.

As he clearly turned a blind eye to the rest of the verse, that ends with "for the time is at hand."

Yes, I think much of your railing against the Bible is simply railing against various biased, superficial, and ignorant interpretations of the Bible.

[Boxjobox]

All things being equal, we humans are on the whole rational and thoughtful people. So why doesn't God just give us a rational, clear understanding of what is taking place: those who accept it fine, those who do not, just turn them off so to speak. Why have plagues, contorted creatures, angels, spirits, natural and unnatural disasters, strange symbolic, cryptic speak. We believers all have a multitude of opinions or questions, divisions, sects, interpretations over something that is so bizarre.

We are made in the image of God. I, and I think most appreciate clear talk. If you go to the Dr, and he says well, giant grasshoppers, mark on your hand, croaking frogs, we probably will run away from him ( or her) and seek an opinion from someone that 1) knows what they are talking about and 2) will give us a straight shot.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

All things being equal, we humans are on the whole rational and thoughtful people. So why doesn't God just give us a rational, clear understanding of what is taking place: those who accept it fine, those who do not, just turn them off so to speak. Why have plagues, contorted creatures, angels, spirits, natural and unnatural disasters, strange symbolic, cryptic speak. We believers all have a multitude of opinions or questions, divisions, sects, interpretations over something that is so bizarre.

We are made in the image of God. I, and I think most appreciate clear talk. If you go to the Dr, and he says well, giant grasshoppers, mark on your hand, croaking frogs, we probably will run away from him ( or her) and seek an opinion from someone that 1) knows what they are talking about and 2) will give us a straight shot.

I suppose that's why Witness Lee said that God was/is sneaky.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's wrong. The "one like the son of man/spirit doesn't tell the Laodiceans to come out. He tells them to "open the door" and he "will enter".

Because bro ZNP is seeing whatever he wants in Revelation I copied this post from "Poor, poor Christianity..." as an example that fits this thread.

[awareness]

For those interested in the different methods of seeing into the book of Revelation take a look at this 30 page article on it.

Methods of Interpretation
There have traditionally been four or five schools of thought on the interpretive framework of the book of Revelation as a whole. There are many hybrids of these approaches; indeed George Eldon Ladd's moderate futuristic approach is really a hybrid of the mostly futuristic approach. In this discussion we will focus on the following five views: historicist, idealist, preterist, mostly future and moderately futuristic.

When attempting to properly understand the Bible’s last book of Revelation, four foundational questions must be addressed:

1) When was this book most likely written?
2) How do we handle its time statements?
3) When was or will it be fulfilled?
4) What is its relevance for us today?

Over the course of Church history, four major, evangelical and eschatological views have evolved. Each answers these four questions differently.In PART I of this article I will present each view, along with some criticism from proponents of the other views. The four views are the preterist view, the premillennial view, the amillennial view, and the postmillennial view.
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PD...67-796_Noe.pdf