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Old 04-14-2018, 12:38 AM   #1
byHismercy
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Default Now's good - byHismercy

Hi saints, I originally posted under the name eyesopened, under someone elses' introduction, and I'd like to apologize for that...I think that was not the appropriate place to jump in...

I feel like now's good to share some of my experience of the witness lee church. This is because very recently, this week, as I was reflecting on the events that led me out of the LC, I began to realize the Lords operation over me, and His sovereign intervention on my behalf, and His sheltering care of my kiddos, of our family. More than just a testimony, or a cautionary tale of Lees' local church, I wish to share His faithfulness to shepherd me, His dependability, and to show how trustworthy Jesus is, always. In so many ways, He prepared me beforehand all the situations I was to encounter throughout my shunning, or quarantining, or whatever the LC would like to name it. They are the ones concerned with names, let it be known. Except for the one name we, as believers, need to hold as highest, that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

I apologize in advance if this testimony feels disjointed or simply raises questions.....

One detail to illustrate His 'preparation' of me was to come as a renewed desire, deep and sure, my feeling that He wanted me in His word, daily and consistently, I feel that He told me to read the bible cover to cover, then begin it again the day I finished it...He gave me this impulse after some time in His word and prayer, and so when the next day, a dear sister in the Lord, a LCer, encouraged me to read and study the Life Study of Exodus with her, I regretfully declined as He had already put His instruction on my heart! And with three young children, I knew I could not accomplish both. I am not one of those supermoms, sort of the opposite, actually.

Later, the same dear sister had wanted me to read some portions of some WLee book, I don't know which, forgive me. She wanted me to know exactly how much the Lord HATES division, denominations, particularly. However, the Lord had already had His own fellowship with me regarding His body, it's oneness, and born from talking to Him, my hearts great desire was to practice that oneness with EVERY redeemed, Jesus believing, Spirit filled saint....forgetting city boundaries, denomination boundaries, condition, etc. Qualified by Jesus name...that is who I love! Because of His love for me. My friend in the LC called me up to see if I had read the portion a few days later and I had to be honest...that though I loved her, I DID NOT want to read anything anymore that would poison me against meeting with saints in Christ, no matter where...and that, He put in me, He knew exactly what I would face, before I did.

I had been deeply deceived, saints. For years, I believed into what I was being taught in the Lee church. Never good enough to meet with them, because of personality traits of my own, yet longing to be with believers, pursuing Him in His word, fully convinced that outside of the LC was nothing...no truth, no life, no building...I was lied to. And, I was naive. My parents could have named me Naive and no one would have thought it strange.

We were first cut off (from fellowship, friendship) by an older sister in Christ whom our family loved greatly. In fact, she led me to believe her dropping of our family was her obeying the Lord. This came from someone who I trusted and viewed as having a better walk, a deeper connection to Him. I thought and feared that He Himself was dropping me, or punishing me, or trying to rebuke me somehow. Then I had our other sister in Christ telling me, that the woman who dropped us knew when the building was just straw, to be burned, of course. And that my mentor in Christ, was waiting for me in the meetings. I began to understand....I was being shunned outside the meetings, but would be embraced, and worthy to speak to, if I came into the meetings. This was the Lord opening the door a crack for me, of course, I pushed open the door and was stunned by what I found. The truth about this idolatrous group came into broad daylight and I understood, after months of this silent treatment....that I and my precious children, who trust in Jesus, had been sacrificed on their alter to their real god, Witness Lee, a mere man, dead 20 years now. No matter the reality we share of His blood, His atoning death and resurrection, His Spirit, His Father, our common inheritance in Christ...none of that matters. We are Not To Be Spoken To. Rightly said Steven Hawking....life would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Or is it the other way around?

But I have to glory in Jesus, because, on the far side of our quarantining, we are about 7 months out now, I see His sovereighnty in all of this mess! In fact, I have to say, His work here is divinely in our favor, NOT a mess! And although we lost ones whom we loved, He is working out compassion in my heart which, naturally was full of pain, indignation, anger towards those we loved, trusted as dear friends, who deceived us. The truth is, when I consider all that has taken place, and the darkness that has been exposed, I want to run to my friends and companions in Christ and show them...look! Look what the LC believes! Look what egregious acts they perpetrate on true believers!!!! And it is the saddest fact, that, they know. They themselves are the ones dividing the Lords' body. How foolish of me to want to warn them of this deception being played out by Satan, trying to destroy the body, the oneness that we in actuality share. Actually, I would attempt to have this conversation, but I feel, in effect, locked out...my communicaes go unanswered, phone calls not taken, etc. Unless we meet our sisters' qualifications for fellowship...meet a minimum of twice a month, and lunch with the sisters in the ministry on Fridays. This, by the way, to take place 30 miles from our home, where the Lee church meets, in order to be reinstated as worthwhile to meet with an old dear friend who lives within 5 miles of us.....what??? That is Deception talking the talk and walking the walk.

How thankful I am, my precious Savior would not tolerate us remaining in deception any longer! What mercy! What love! What grace I am under! His is the only name I will bow to, forever, saints. I love Him. He alone deserves all glory.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:17 AM   #2
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ByHismercy, thanks for sharing your story.

Your dear friend has been deceived. Deceived by the exclusive, elitest, legalistic, and judgmental demands coming from a book publisher in Anaheim. This is not the evidence of God's love, life, and light. They totally misrepresent our Savior's heart of love, unconditional love, and conditionally confine it only to those willing to read their books and travel to their meetings. Who do you think are the real "naive" ones?

This forum exists to help those like you and me who once believed these deceptions, so that one's like you can continue your faith walk in Christ without fear and without guilt.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Now's good

Who ever destroys His body, the Lord will destroy that person. If we sow divisiveness among brothers and sisters in Christ like what LSM is doing, we will be punished because this is Body's destroying. Praise the Lord for His mercy and grace on you. He drags your hands out of dark pit unto His salvation.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Now's good

Great post sister (left below). Thanks much.

Kinda funny. I recently changed my tagline.

I replaced "Life would be tragic if it was so funny - Stephen Hawking

with:

Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless - Witness Lee.

Relating to your post, that's irony of ironies.

Many blessings sister ..

Harold-awareness

-------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Hi saints, I originally posted under the name eyesopened, under someone elses' introduction, and I'd like to apologize for that...I think that was not the appropriate place to jump in...

I feel like now's good to share some of my experience of the witness lee church. This is because very recently, this week, as I was reflecting on the events that led me out of the LC, I began to realize the Lords operation over me, and His sovereign intervention on my behalf, and His sheltering care of my kiddos, of our family. More than just a testimony, or a cautionary tale of Lees' local church, I wish to share His faithfulness to shepherd me, His dependability, and to show how trustworthy Jesus is, always. In so many ways, He prepared me beforehand all the situations I was to encounter throughout my shunning, or quarantining, or whatever the LC would like to name it. They are the ones concerned with names, let it be known. Except for the one name we, as believers, need to hold as highest, that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

I apologize in advance if this testimony feels disjointed or simply raises questions.....

One detail to illustrate His 'preparation' of me was to come as a renewed desire, deep and sure, my feeling that He wanted me in His word, daily and consistently, I feel that He told me to read the bible cover to cover, then begin it again the day I finished it...He gave me this impulse after some time in His word and prayer, and so when the next day, a dear sister in the Lord, a LCer, encouraged me to read and study the Life Study of Exodus with her, I regretfully declined as He had already put His instruction on my heart! And with three young children, I knew I could not accomplish both. I am not one of those supermoms, sort of the opposite, actually.

Later, the same dear sister had wanted me to read some portions of some WLee book, I don't know which, forgive me. She wanted me to know exactly how much the Lord HATES division, denominations, particularly. However, the Lord had already had His own fellowship with me regarding His body, it's oneness, and born from talking to Him, my hearts great desire was to practice that oneness with EVERY redeemed, Jesus believing, Spirit filled saint....forgetting city boundaries, denomination boundaries, condition, etc. Qualified by Jesus name...that is who I love! Because of His love for me. My friend in the LC called me up to see if I had read the portion a few days later and I had to be honest...that though I loved her, I DID NOT want to read anything anymore that would poison me against meeting with saints in Christ, no matter where...and that, He put in me, He knew exactly what I would face, before I did.

I had been deeply deceived, saints. For years, I believed into what I was being taught in the Lee church. Never good enough to meet with them, because of personality traits of my own, yet longing to be with believers, pursuing Him in His word, fully convinced that outside of the LC was nothing...no truth, no life, no building...I was lied to. And, I was naive. My parents could have named me Naive and no one would have thought it strange.

We were first cut off (from fellowship, friendship) by an older sister in Christ whom our family loved greatly. In fact, she led me to believe her dropping of our family was her obeying the Lord. This came from someone who I trusted and viewed as having a better walk, a deeper connection to Him. I thought and feared that He Himself was dropping me, or punishing me, or trying to rebuke me somehow. Then I had our other sister in Christ telling me, that the woman who dropped us knew when the building was just straw, to be burned, of course. And that my mentor in Christ, was waiting for me in the meetings. I began to understand....I was being shunned outside the meetings, but would be embraced, and worthy to speak to, if I came into the meetings. This was the Lord opening the door a crack for me, of course, I pushed open the door and was stunned by what I found. The truth about this idolatrous group came into broad daylight and I understood, after months of this silent treatment....that I and my precious children, who trust in Jesus, had been sacrificed on their alter to their real god, Witness Lee, a mere man, dead 20 years now. No matter the reality we share of His blood, His atoning death and resurrection, His Spirit, His Father, our common inheritance in Christ...none of that matters. We are Not To Be Spoken To. Rightly said Steven Hawking....life would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Or is it the other way around?

But I have to glory in Jesus, because, on the far side of our quarantining, we are about 7 months out now, I see His sovereighnty in all of this mess! In fact, I have to say, His work here is divinely in our favor, NOT a mess! And although we lost ones whom we loved, He is working out compassion in my heart which, naturally was full of pain, indignation, anger towards those we loved, trusted as dear friends, who deceived us. The truth is, when I consider all that has taken place, and the darkness that has been exposed, I want to run to my friends and companions in Christ and show them...look! Look what the LC believes! Look what egregious acts they perpetrate on true believers!!!! And it is the saddest fact, that, they know. They themselves are the ones dividing the Lords' body. How foolish of me to want to warn them of this deception being played out by Satan, trying to destroy the body, the oneness that we in actuality share. Actually, I would attempt to have this conversation, but I feel, in effect, locked out...my communicaes go unanswered, phone calls not taken, etc. Unless we meet our sisters' qualifications for fellowship...meet a minimum of twice a month, and lunch with the sisters in the ministry on Fridays. This, by the way, to take place 30 miles from our home, where the Lee church meets, in order to be reinstated as worthwhile to meet with an old dear friend who lives within 5 miles of us.....what??? That is Deception talking the talk and walking the walk.

How thankful I am, my precious Savior would not tolerate us remaining in deception any longer! What mercy! What love! What grace I am under! His is the only name I will bow to, forever, saints. I love Him. He alone deserves all glory.
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:02 PM   #5
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Amen byHismercy!

It's not by might nor power but by my spirit saith the Lord!
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Psalm 127 ►
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In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
We were first cut off (from fellowship, friendship) by an older sister in Christ whom our family loved greatly. In fact, she led me to believe her dropping of our family was her obeying the Lord. This came from someone who I trusted and viewed as having a better walk, a deeper connection to Him. I thought and feared that He Himself was dropping me, or punishing me, or trying to rebuke me somehow. Then I had our other sister in Christ telling me, that the woman who dropped us knew when the building was just straw, to be burned, of course. And that my mentor in Christ, was waiting for me in the meetings. I began to understand....I was being shunned outside the meetings, but would be embraced, and worthy to speak to, if I came into the meetings.
The great problem with the LC system is that the subjectivism of Nee and Lee is now writ large across the assemblies and becomes that basis for ascertaining "reality" as it seems to be presenting to the members. It is all about how you feel. The Bible itself is secondary, as is basic righteousness, or rightness. Common sense. Interpretational consistency. All goes out the window in the subjective LC. If you don't "get life" you don't do it. And if Lee didn't "get life" from something, then neither can you.

All of which leads to some strange and very unchristian stuff. Eventually the disconnect becomes so glaring it is impossible not to notice. People who should always get love are treated as "straw to be burned" because why? They aren't absolute for this week's ministry message? What is the basis here? Subjectivism unhinged and unrestrained. "There is no one to restrain the madness of the prophet" indeed. The safety of multiple counselors, cited repeatedly in Proverbs, is completely absent in the LC. Whatever WL wanted to talk about today was "God's oracle."

The glory of the gospel, for me, is in its simplicity. God's love reaches everyone, not just those who fit our subjective comfort zones. God's power raised Jesus from the dead. God's light shines into the darkness, and mine is the worst, so why should I judge anyone? But rather God forgives, so I don't worry about anyone else's "subjective Christ" over-riding the word of the Bible in front of me.

Anyway I'm writing to say thank you for writing. I write too much, and often wish others would share their experiences. There's a need for people to realize there is indeed life, and "Christ", outside the LC. Thank you for sharing yours.

In Him always.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
ByHismercy, thanks for sharing your story.

Your dear friend has been deceived. Deceived by the exclusive, elitest, legalistic, and judgmental demands coming from a book publisher in Anaheim. This is not the evidence of God's love, life, and light. They totally misrepresent our Savior's heart of love, unconditional love, and conditionally confine it only to those willing to read their books and travel to their meetings. Who do you think are the real "naive" ones?

This forum exists to help those like you and me who once believed these deceptions, so that one's like you can continue your faith walk in Christ without fear and without guilt.
Yes, Ohio. Thank you...

Deceived as I once was. And this forum is being used by the Lord to encourage me in Him! And my desire is to keep others, all others, from falling into the trap of the false teachings, erroneous belief system...the Lord warned his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees and the sadduces...is this what we are coming out of? I would love input from participants here...
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:32 PM   #8
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Yes, Ohio. Thank you...

Deceived as I once was. And this forum is being used by the Lord to encourage me in Him! And my desire is to keep others, all others, from falling into the trap of the false teachings, erroneous belief system...the Lord warned his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees and the sadduces...is this what we are coming out of? I would love input from participants here...
This account is in Matthew chpt 16...the first chunk of it
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Yes, Ohio. Thank you...

Deceived as I once was. And this forum is being used by the Lord to encourage me in Him! And my desire is to keep others, all others, from falling into the trap of the false teachings, erroneous belief system...the Lord warned his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees and the sadduces...is this what we are coming out of? I would love input from participants here...
Definitely! That's what makes leaving so difficult.

Leaving the LC's is an unleavening process. The early disciples were forced to do the same.

I Thess 5 provides one guideline, "Test all things, hold on to the good."
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by aron View Post
The great problem with the LC system is that the subjectivism of Nee and Lee is now writ large across the assemblies and becomes that basis for ascertaining "reality" as it seems to be presenting to the members. It is all about how you feel. The Bible itself is secondary, as is basic righteousness, or rightness. Common sense. Interpretational consistency. All goes out the window in the subjective LC. If you don't "get life" you don't do it. And if Lee didn't "get life" from something, then neither can you.

All of which leads to some strange and very unchristian stuff. Eventually the disconnect becomes so glaring it is impossible not to notice. People who should always get love are treated as "straw to be burned" because why? They aren't absolute for this week's ministry message? What is the basis here? Subjectivism unhinged and unrestrained. "There is no one to restrain the madness of the prophet" indeed. The safety of multiple counselors, cited repeatedly in Proverbs, is completely absent in the LC. Whatever WL wanted to talk about today was "God's oracle."

The glory of the gospel, for me, is in its simplicity. God's love reaches everyone, not just those who fit our subjective comfort zones. God's power raised Jesus from the dead. God's light shines into the darkness, and mine is the worst, so why should I judge anyone? But rather God forgives, so I don't worry about anyone else's "subjective Christ" over-riding the word of the Bible in front of me.

Anyway I'm writing to say thank you for writing. I write too much, and often wish others would share their experiences. There's a need for people to realize there is indeed life, and "Christ", outside the LC. Thank you for sharing yours.

In Him always.
Thank you aron and everybody else who kindly responded to my post....praise God in Christ Jesus, saints! His goodness and fellowship is faithful! This morning I was reflecting on one persons 'testing' of the teaching we received in the witness lee ministry about Satan himself dwelling in our flesh, I believe it was Nigel Tomes who wrote on this subject and refuted this idea with scripturs? Please correct me if I am wrong. That article was entirely eye opening to me...of course this lee teaaching I received at the time, but now, I see, of course, Satan CANNOT INDWELL ALL BELIEVERS because he is a fallen angel, not having omniscience nor omnipresence as our Lord Savior Christ does....

Realizing this teaching was completely in error made me realize that Lee and co. could be wrong about absolutely anything...

I agree with the Lord and several posters here....we should test all things, hold fast the good, leave the rest for the trashcan. Forgive me, that is not the accurate quote...oftentimes the Lord leaves me with a very strong impression of the truth, but not exactly His perfect wording...

Another scriptural truth I am choosing to believe over Lees word is in 1John 5.....for everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I do! And this verse is one of many which the Lord gave me to shine His light into the darkness I was fed in the local church! I believe Him and His word, utterly! And how many other Lee teachings miss the mark completely, I am left wondering...

I know for sure the dividing from saints without the conditons set forth in the Word is unscriptual and abhorrent! And I will, by His mercy, never participate in such a body damaging practice. Again, thank you, saints! The warm responses from everybody really blessed me...

Last edited by byHismercy; 04-22-2018 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Misspellings
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
This morning I was reflecting on one persons 'testing' of the teaching we received in the witness lee ministry about Satan himself dwelling in our flesh, I believe it was Nigel Tomes who wrote on this subject and refuted this idea with scripturs? Please correct me if I am wrong. That article was entirely eye opening to me...of course this lee teaaching I received at the time, but now, I see, of course, Satan CANNOT INDWELL ALL BELIEVERS because he is a fallen angel, not having omniscience nor omnipresence as our Lord Savior Christ does....

Realizing this teaching was completely in error made me realize that Lee and co. could be wrong about absolutely anything...
byHismercy, can you explain this a little more? What is the context that witness lee taught Satan himself indwells our flesh? What is the refutation (or where could you point me to it)? Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-22-2018, 11:04 AM   #12
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byHismercy, can you explain this a little more? What is the context that witness lee taught Satan himself indwells our flesh? What is the refutation (or where could you point me to it)? Thanks in advance.
It is the two trees in the garden of Eden. The tree of life represented God, and Lee taught that by eating the tree of knowledge, Satan got into our flesh -- like the so-called "original sin."
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:35 PM   #13
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If Satan does not indwell the flesh, how come believers can do evil things?
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Old 04-22-2018, 05:38 PM   #14
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It is the two trees in the garden of Eden. The tree of life represented God, and Lee taught that by eating the tree of knowledge, Satan got into our flesh -- like the so-called "original sin."
After man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, "Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil".

I never understood how the tree of knowledge could represent Satan (and partaking of it meant partaking of Satan) since God stated that the man became like God once he ate of it.

I asked an elder that question several months back: "was it the tree itself that was the problem and sin entered through taking in of the tree? or was it the act of disobedience that was the problem and there was nothing inherently 'wrong' with the tree but sin entered through the act?" He didn't have an answer but did reference Romans 5:12 about sin entering into the world through one man.

I've always grown up with "life good, knowledge bad" as evidenced by the two trees (and of course there is the verse that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life) but .... is that just an interpretation of Genesis by W.Lee that is not commonly held elsewhere or is that generally accepted, or is this one of those still-debated topics today?
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Old 04-22-2018, 05:52 PM   #15
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If Satan does not indwell the flesh, how come believers can do evil things?

Maybe for the same reasons that, though the Holy Spirit indwells us, we don't always do holy things.

Actually, the Bible never tells us that Satan indwells our flesh. Just like the Bible never tells us that the Father died on the cross. Just like the Bible never tells us that God became man so that man can become God. These are all ill-advised theological constructs by a man who had absolutely no business delving into such deep and advanced theological concepts; much, much less claiming that his make-it-up-as-he-went-along theology was "recovered truth".

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Old 04-22-2018, 06:26 PM   #16
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If Satan does not indwell the flesh, how come believers can do evil things?
Check out this excellent article on the subject by ex-member Professor Nigel Tomes, which debunks Lee's errant theology:

"The Enemy Within - Satan In The Believer's Body - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology"

We also had much excellent discussion on this article a number of years ago.
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:46 PM   #17
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There are sources outside of Lee which can corroborate his beliefs. Here is an article by the evangelical bible scholar and theologian Brett Burrowes:

https://zerubbabel.org/intercessor-a...and-the-flesh/

also see https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

In fact before St.Augustine’s time, the early church believed that “Sin” in Romans 7 did not refer to some mysterious sin principle or sin nature but to Satan himself. Didymus the Blind, who wrote in Egypt in the fourth century, said: “it is the devil who dwells in sinners and does the evil through them, just as Christworks the good in believers.” Another important theologian, Basil of Caesarea, known for his important work on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit, calls the devil “sin itself,” when interpreting Romans.Another church father of the fourth century, Methodius, also interpreting Romans 7, says: “But the devil, whom he calls sin, because he is the author of sin, taking occasion by the commandment to deceive me into disobedience, deceived and slew me. By such a choice I am sold to the devil, fallen under sin, the lawof the devil according to the lust which dwells in the flesh.” Irenaeus, one of the earliest Christian theologians and bishop of Lyon (185 AD),writes that Adam became a vessel in Satan’s possession. I could quote additional early church writers, but I think these suffice to showthat something changed in the way that sin in Romans 7 was understood. In my doctoral dissertation I have traced this change to St. Augustine. In fact, in the eastern part of the church,Augustine had no influence on their understanding of sin and human nature, and so to this day, the understanding of sin as a reference to the spirit of Satan is still an influential and important interpretation in Eastern Orthodox theology.


When Augustine became Christian, he reacted against the Manichean religion he had once followed and rejected the view that Satan continued to be the source of all human sin even after Adam’s sin and reduced him to only beginning the process. In other words, Satan corrupted human nature, which became independently sinful, but Satan did not continue to dwell in humanity, as the other church fathers taught.


Contrary to what Augustine and the entire Catholic and Protestant traditions have taught, sin is not the corruption of an independently operating human nature, but the enslaving spirit of Satan.

So we have good evidence that it was in fact Augustine who had "ill-advised theological constructs by a man who had absolutely no business delving into such deep and advanced theological concepts". Modern day beliefs about Satan do not come from the Bible nor the (earliest) early church, but from Augustine's personal reaction to Manichean religion.

The Nigel Tomes article does not consider the changes brought about by Augustine nor consider the similarity between Lee's beliefs and the early church fathers. It is clear from this article by Burrowes that Augustine swung the pendulum away from commonly held early Christian beliefs and Lee was one of a number to try and swing it back again. When I consider that the Tomes article or the discussion on here does not address or even mention these things, it proves that there is not enough evidence to debunk Lee's teaching entirely.
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Old 04-22-2018, 09:53 PM   #18
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There are sources outside of Lee which can corroborate his beliefs.
Evangelical, if the source is not Gods' Word, it is not the authority you need....God said, sin dwells in our flesh. God did not say Satan, the fallen servant angel, dwells in our flesh. How can a fallen angel dwell simultaneously in every believer in the world, and of course this would include every unregenerated human being as well....when angels do not possess omniscience, as our Lord is the only one who is omniscient!! Lee gave Satan powers he did not possess, elevating Satan, albeit in a negative way. This is adding to the word of God! A grievous error! A teaching to be rebuked. Corrected. Thank you for finding the article by Tomes, Ohio.

Trapped, this article is a wonderful read, I highly recommend.

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Old 04-22-2018, 09:58 PM   #19
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If Satan does not indwell the flesh, how come believers can do evil things?
Romans 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Sin, NOT SATAN, dwells within us.

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Old 04-22-2018, 10:04 PM   #20
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Romans 7:17 So no it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Sin, NOT SATAN, dwells within us.
Ephesians 2:2 clearly shows Satan is a spirit who is at work inside people:

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Romans 6:12 and 6:14 show that sin can reign and sin can be a master:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

14 For sin shall no longer be your master

A thing, an it, cannot reign and be a master. Only a living entity can reign and be master, i.e. Satan.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:20 PM   #21
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I'm new here. I hope it's ok for me to chime in. It's an interesting question. I guess the first thing that would come to mind is if Satan was omnipresent, why was it that he "entered" Judas at the supper if he had already dwelled in Judas (Luke 22:3)?
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:30 PM   #22
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Ephesians 2:2 clearly shows Satan is a spirit who is at work inside people:

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Romans 6:12 and 6:14 show that sin can reign and sin can be a master:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

14 For sin shall no longer be your master

A thing, an it, cannot reign and be a master. Only a living entity can reign and be master, i.e. Satan.

Evangelical, I completely agree with you, and Gods' word. Satan and his unclean spirits can possess people, I think that our Lord and the apostles cast unclean spirits out of believers and unbelievers alike.

But WL took that and went farther. To teach that Satan, substituting for sin indwells the flesh of every person is to teach that Satan possesses omnipresence....this is not the same as a demon or unclean spirit or Satan himself possessing a person. I don't believe Satan can settle down and live, indwell, possess!! every human being of Gods' creation simultaneously!!

Herein WL ADDED to Gods' word, wrongly so, and deceived myself and others. Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Not a gentle warning. I would watch out not to fall into this error very carefully!
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:31 PM   #23
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I'm new here. I hope it's ok for me to chime in. It's an interesting question. I guess the first thing that would come to mind is if Satan was omnipresent, why was it that he "entered" Judas at the supper if he had already dwelled in Judas (Luke 22:3)?
I think Satan is not omnipresent.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:34 PM   #24
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Evangelical, I completely agree with you, and Gods' word. Satan and his unclean spirits can possess people, I think that our Lord and the apostles cast unclean spirits out of believers and unbelievers alike.

But WL took that and went farther. To teach that Satan, substituting for sin indwells the flesh of every person is to teach that Satan possesses omnipresence....this is not the same as a demon or unclean spirit or Satan himself possessing a person. I don't believe Satan can settle down and live, indwell, possess!! every human being of Gods' creation simultaneously!!

Herein WL ADDED to Gods' word, wrongly so, and deceived myself and others. Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Not a gentle warning. I would watch out not to fall into this error very carefully!
I understood Lee to use the term Satan to describe the influence of Satan. Not literally meaning that Satan as the fallen angel indwelt every person.
I agree that Satan himself is not omnipresent. I understood Lee to mean sin/flesh as a personification of Satan. Lee possibly overused the term "is". "is this" and "is that", as a means to emphasize the point, rather than explain a literal fact.

That said, if Satan could travel faster than the speed of light, which I believe angels can, it would be possible for him to visit every person on the planet near instantaneously, giving the appearance of omnipresence.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:39 PM   #25
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I'm new here. I hope it's ok for me to chime in. It's an interesting question. I guess the first thing that would come to mind is if Satan was omnipresent, why was it that he "entered" Judas at the supper if he had already dwelled in Judas (Luke 22:3)?
Yes! Excellent point!
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:45 PM   #26
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I understood Lee to use the term Satan to describe the influence of Satan. Not literally meaning that Satan as the fallen angel indwelt every person.
I agree that Satan himself is not omnipresent. I understood Lee to mean sin/flesh as a personification of Satan. Lee possibly overused the term "is". "is this" and "is that", as a means to emphasize the point, rather than explain a literal fact.

That said, if Satan could travel faster than the speed of light, which I believe angels can, it would be possible for him to visit every person on the planet near instantaneously, giving the appearance of omnipresence.

Evangelical, I understand Lee taught that Satan himself literally indwelt all people, and this aberant teaching was later cleaned up, polished, and repackaged to say that Lee didn't really mean what he said, but an easier to swallow version of this teaching was presented. The Nigel Tomes article expounds on this, I believe.
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Old 04-22-2018, 11:04 PM   #27
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I understood Lee to use the term Satan to describe the influence of Satan. Not literally meaning that Satan as the fallen angel indwelt every person.
I agree that Satan himself is not omnipresent. I understood Lee to mean sin/flesh as a personification of Satan. Lee possibly overused the term "is". "is this" and "is that", as a means to emphasize the point, rather than explain a literal fact.

That said, if Satan could travel faster than the speed of light, which I believe angels can, it would be possible for him to visit every person on the planet near instantaneously, giving the appearance of omnipresence.

This is a very interesting supposition! But not what Lee taught. Lee taught that sin indwelling our flesh was actually Satan himself....
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Old 04-22-2018, 11:12 PM   #28
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Yes! Excellent point!
Luke 22:3 And then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

4 he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:17 AM   #29
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Evangelical, I understand Lee taught that Satan himself literally indwelt all people, and this aberant teaching was later cleaned up, polished, and repackaged to say that Lee didn't really mean what he said, but an easier to swallow version of this teaching was presented. The Nigel Tomes article expounds on this, I believe.
If Lee believed that the person (i.e. fallen angel) Satan literally indwelt all people at the same time (impossible as Satan is not omnipresent, and in Scripture we do see Satan entering and leaving people, such as Judas, but not abiding) , then he is clearly wrong.
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:59 AM   #30
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If Lee believed that the person (i.e. fallen angel) Satan literally indwelt all people at the same time (impossible as Satan is not omnipresent, and in Scripture we do see Satan entering and leaving people, such as Judas, but not abiding) , then he is clearly wrong.
Not if, he certainly believed it!
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:29 AM   #31
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Not if, he certainly believed it!
Please provide the quote from BrotherLee and cite the reference.

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Old 04-23-2018, 05:37 AM   #32
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Please provide the quote from BrotherLee and cite the reference.

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You should look it up in your own ministrybooks.org
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:52 AM   #33
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You should look it up in your own ministrybooks.org
I don’t do rock fetches for unfounded assertions.

Please provide the quotes you mentioned if they exist. Otherwise, your argument goes into the dust bin of unsubstantiated “Brother Lee said...” claims.

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Old 04-23-2018, 08:27 AM   #34
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I don’t do rock fetches for unfounded assertions.

Please provide the quotes you mentioned if they exist. Otherwise, your argument goes into the dust bin of unsubstantiated “Brother Lee said...” claims.

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The Economy of God. Ch 12 & Man and the Two Trees Ch 1

The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

The Kingdom. Ch 10

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:56 AM   #35
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Please provide the quote from BrotherLee and cite the reference.

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Read Nigel Tomes article. He cites quotes from Lee.

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“The Sin that dwells in our Flesh…is Satan Incarnated”—W. Lee
Most Christian scholars and Bible-readers would probably accept the co-workers’ explanation of sin as the “virtual personification of Satan” in man's flesh. They might quibble with this description, but still consider it as orthodox. At times Bro. Lee’s own exposition approximates this position. For example he says, 15 “If the fact of indwelling sin is unveiled to us, we will see that we have…the very personification of Satan as sin, making its home in our flesh.” At other times, however Bro Lee “pushes the envelope.” He can say, 16 “In a sense, the sin that dwells in our flesh…is Satan incarnated. Satan as sin is in our flesh.” The caveat that sin is the “virtual personification of Satan” is absent from Bro. Lee’s writings. Instead, equivalence is asserted. “Sin itself is Satan himself,” who is a “living person,” he declares. His statement, in context, reads: 17

Sin itself, according to the Bible's revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him...One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you…Sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh…because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.”

Bro. Lee has ventured beyond the co-workers’ statement. It is no longer merely something of Satan, his “life and nature” within mankind; rather it is Satan himself who (allegedly) “gets into you.” Moreover, sin is described not as the “virtual personification of Satan;” instead, Bro. Lee declares that Satan as a “living person” is “in our being.” As a result (Bro. Lee says) we are Satan-possessed, in that “the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.” Along the same lines, he declares 18 “the sin that dwells in our flesh…is Satan incarnated.” Moreover, Satan’s personality has impacted man’s soul. The “real significance of man’s fall” (Bro. Lee says) is that 19 “through man’s fall Satan’s personality became one with man’s soul, and he [Satan] has taken into man’s body…” Hence, allegedly, man’s flesh is “fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin,” this sin is “Satan incarnated,” and “Satan’s personality became one with man’s soul.” Moreover, 20 “Man has been inwardly constituted with Satan and has become a satanic thing. Man has been mixed with Satan.”
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:49 AM   #36
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Another teaching that I learned from WLee that my first inward response to was red flagged...I knew Gods' word did not teach that, nor say that, but I went along with it?! The saints seemed genuine for the Lord, this huge church, this venerated man expounding the bible....they couldn't all be wrong, right? And of course, there is no talking about it with the believers around you...

How wrong I was! And now, armed with the light of Gods' word, I can safely proclaim this to be a false teaching. And, my brothers still in the LC, you have to choose, also! Gods' truth, or WLs' fabrication? I know that, from experience, if you reject the lie and choose Jesus, the blessing will flow out from the throne of God to you! And I encourage you to choose Him!

Peace to us all, in Christ Jesus! Amen

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Old 04-23-2018, 11:54 AM   #37
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Also, I would just like to add....

I am so grateful for Drake and Evangelical being open to discuss these things...thank you brothers....

And thank you to the brothers who helped me make this point with references!!

Seeing this error really was a huge turning point for me....and I am filled up with love for all of the saints! Credit....Jesus
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:38 PM   #38
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The Economy of God. Ch 12 & Man and the Two Trees Ch 1

The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

The Kingdom. Ch 10

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.
I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense. But still realizing that the "spirit of" is a person, not a thing or inanimate object. The idea of "seeking to control our soul" obviously implies intent, and is therefore a living person.

Just as Lee does not differentiate between the Spirit of God and God himself, neither does he differentiate between the spirit of Satan and Satan himself. Just as the Spirit of God is "God's person", the same can be said of Satan. Remember, the spirit of a person is their true self and identity. I have come across this "we are spirits in a body" idea in Christianity, so I think it is well accepted that this is the case.

So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

The same one mentioned here:

Ephesians 2:2

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Considering that it says "the spirit" and not "the spirits", I don't see anyone arguing against Ephesians 2:2, saying "how can the spirit of Satan work in all the disobedient ones.. he's not omnipresent!" or "I don't have to worry about Satan influencing me, because he can only be in one place at a time!"

I believe the "spirit of Satan" has some omnipresent ability even though the fallen angel himself probably doesn't.

I say probably doesn't, because as an angel it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light, visiting every person on the planet within a minute, and give the appearance of omnipresence. A good analogy of how this is possible is the internet - information travelling at the speed of light visiting every person almost instantaneously.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:43 PM   #39
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I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense. Just as Lee does not differentiate between the Spirit of God and God himself, neither does he differentiate between the spirit of Satan and Satan himself. Just as the Spirit of God is "God's person", the same can be said of Satan. Remember, the spirit of a person is their true self and identity. I have come across this "we are spirits in a body" idea in Christianity, so I think it is well accepted that this is the case.

So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

The same one mentioned here:

Ephesians 2:2

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Considering that it says "the spirit" and not "the spirits", I don't see anyone arguing against Ephesians 2:2, saying "how can Satan work in all the disobedient ones.. he's not omnipresent!" or "I don't have to worry about Satan influencing me, because he can only be in one place at a time!"

I believe the "spirit of Satan" has some omnipresent ability even though the fallen angel himself probably doesn't.

I say probably doesn't, because as an angel it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light, visiting every person on the planet within a minute, and give the appearance of omnipresence. A good analogy of how this is possible is the internet - information travelling at the speed of light visiting every person almost instantaneously.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Does Satan has one body in this universe and we express it here on earth?
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:47 PM   #40
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Say what you mean and mean what you say.
According to the PhD thesis which I quoted before, it seems that the early church personified sin as Satan, and Augustine separated the two, so Lee is technically more correct, if we consider the early church's understand as more authoritative (just as we take their understanding of the Canon and the Trinity as authoritative).

I also believe that it is better to consider sin as Satan, then we can see the true nature of it, as not a dormant temptation living in us that we can choose to ignore or pay attention to, but as a living person with intent that we must battle and overcome. The enemy which Christians face is not "sin within and Satan without", it is ALL Satan - Satan within, Satan without. Judas Iscariot could easily have justified his sin as "it was the sin in me which caused me to betray Christ, not Satan", when Scripture clearly says satan entered him.
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:21 PM   #41
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1 John 3:6-10

Whosoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteous is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

I can testify this word of God is true! He leads His children into a righteous life! Not into a life of living in sin. So you can see from His word that there are two "parents" here....God and the devil. A person born of God cannot be the child of the devil.
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:22 PM   #42
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Augustine had no influence on their understanding of sin and human nature, and so to this day, the understanding of sin as a reference to the spirit of Satan is still an influential and important interpretation in Eastern Orthodox theology.[/I]

It is no doubt the LCM followed the Eastern Orthodox tradition rather than that of Western theology. That's why Hank Hanegraff had recently converted to Eastern Orthodox church through chrismation due to his influence of Lee's idea of theosis. It is interesting that Lee is trying, with some success, developed a synthesis between Protestant and Orthodox traditions.
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:47 PM   #43
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-----Evangelical quote---So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.----

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

My response to this statement is John 14:26.....But the Comfortor, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said to you.

The Lord Spirit has everything to do with understanding His word, not a man made measurement of the human intelligence quotient. I mean, what you are suggesting is that only a person or persons with a so called low i.q.will not be able to believe and receive what Lee was teaching. What silly nonsense.

John 14:17.....Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Gods' word refutes Lees error.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:05 PM   #44
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-----Evangelical quote---So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.----

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

My response to this statement is John 14:26.....But the Comfortor, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said to you.

The Lord Spirit has everything to do with understanding His word, not a man made measurement of the human intelligence quotient. I mean, what you are suggesting is that only a person or persons with a so called low i.q.will not be able to believe and receive what Lee was teaching. What silly nonsense.

John 14:17.....Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Gods' word refutes Lees error.
What is indicative of low intelligence is people's inability to synthesize all the facts and jump to conclusions about Lee's beliefs. For example, here, Lee clarifies his position, stating clearly that he does not believe Satan to be omnipresent, and refers to Satan as the evil spirit working in mankind:

A General Sketch of the New Testament in the Light of Christ and the Church
By Witness Lee

"although we do not say that Satan is omnipresent, we must realize that he dwells in man's flesh" "Today Satan, the evil spirit, is working in mankind."


Christians implicitly believe Satan to be omnipresent anyway, because of his minions, his influence, his spirit. If he wasn't, then the warnings in Scripture could not apply to all believers. The chances of meeting the actual Satan would be very small, and few would have to worry about encountering such evil.

The next time two Christians say at the same time "Satan tempted me today", we should say "no, that's incorrect, he tempted only one of you, because he cannot be in two places at the same time". If we are serious about calling Lee's interpretation into question over this then we should apply that belief consistently. Clearly Lee does not believe Satan himself is omnipresent, but does believe his influence is everywhere which is as if Satan were everywhere. Most Christians believe like this, but they think that sin is some fault of man, rather than Satan.

I think we need to distinguish between actual omnipresence, and manufactured omnipresence. As God's counterfeit and evil copy-cat, Satan must give the appearance of omnipresence, a false omnipresence, and I think this is what Lee is referring to by Satan in the flesh. I believe this also can be achieved by having the ability to travel very fast and utilize hordes of minions.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:00 PM   #45
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I'm sorry, Evangelical....WLees opinion does not stand as facts for me. Gods' word stands as the truth, the facts. All I can see is that Lees opinions are contrary to what God Himself spoke.....He told us that He and the Father were one, and they would make an abode with us....He spoke clearly and plainly....He would make His home in our hearts....His Spirit will indwell believers....over and over He made these truths clear......why did He not speak explicitly that Satan would indwell me? You cannot convince me, brother.....I just got out of this cult and I am never going to rely on a mans interpretation of Gods word again.....I learned my lesson......bless you....
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:06 PM   #46
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I just got out of this cult and I am never going to rely on a mans interpretation of Gods word again.....I learned my lesson......bless you....
Amen

"And don't let anyone call you 'Teacher,' for you have only one teacher, the Messiah" -Matthew 23:10
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:26 PM   #47
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Amen to that, Jo S!
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:00 PM   #48
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1 John 4:4.....You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:45 PM   #49
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A General Sketch of the New Testament in the Light of Christ and the Church
By Witness Lee

"although we do not say that Satan is omnipresent, we must realize that he dwells in man's flesh" "Today Satan, the evil spirit, is working in mankind."
Nice reference. Think about it. If I say "although we do not say you are stupid, we must realize that you very often do stupid things.", do I think you are stupid or do I not?

I hope one day you would realize a seemingly unbreakable axiom is "dwelling" in you - WL is always right, he is right even when he is wrong.

Do you know why you seem always able to find something from WL's teaching to prove he is right? Because his teaching is in itself full of contradictions! And it needs lots of twisting in the terminology in order to make his teaching sound right. "Manufactured omnipresence"? Are you serious?

You stepped one major step forward when you said "If Lee..., then he is clearly wrong." in your earlier post. I am sorry that you stepped backward again so soon.

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Mat 5:37 But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no; for anything more than these is of the evil one.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:52 PM   #50
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Nice reference. Think about it. If I say "although we do not say you are stupid, we must realize that you very often do stupid things.", do I think you are stupid or do I not?

I hope one day you would realize a seemingly unbreakable axiom is "dwelling" in you - WL is always right, he is right even when he is wrong.

Do you know why you seem always able to find something from WL's teaching to prove he is right? Because his teaching is in itself full of contradictions! And it needs lots of twisting in the terminology in order to make his teaching sound right. "Manufactured omnipresence"? Are you serious?

You stepped one major step forward when you said "If Lee..., then he is clearly wrong." in your earlier post. I am sorry that you stepped backward again so soon.

------------------------------------
Mat 5:37 But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no; for anything more than these is of the evil one.
I think your example shows there is a difference between being stupid, and doing stupid things. In Christianity, I have heard something like this - "Even though you sin, I would not call you a sinner, but a Christian". What's the difference? So I could say, that God IS omnipresent, but Satan only "does" omnipresence.

What the quote from Lee shows, is that he has considered the practical impossibility of Satan being omnipresent, and would not say that, but the bible is clear that "Satan is everywhere" - how to reconcile that Satan is not everywhere, but multitudes of believers face attack from Satan daily?

Multitudes of believers claim "attacks from Satan" every day. This would only be possible if Satan is omnipresent. Therefore Christianity in general, must believe that Satan is everywhere. Think about it. If Satan is not omnipresent then what do believers have to worry about?
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:23 PM   #51
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What the quote from Lee shows, is that he has considered the practical impossibility of Satan being omnipresent, and would not say that, but the bible is clear that "Satan is everywhere" - how to reconcile that Satan is not everywhere, but multitudes of believers face attack from Satan daily?

Multitudes of believers claim "attacks from Satan" every day. This would only be possible if Satan is omnipresent. Therefore Christianity in general, must believe that Satan is everywhere. Think about it. If Satan is not omnipresent then what do believers have to worry about?

I introduced the idea of different kinds of omnipresence. God is omnipresent because He can do all things. Satan is limited but surely presents himself as a sort of god, with some sort of "manufactured" omnipresent ability.
Why does Satan need to be "manufactured" omnipresent? He simply corrupted humanilty and the law of sin and death now operates autonomously within the flesh. He doesn't need to be there at all. Of course, from time to time, he might send out his minions too.

As for the "attacks from Satan" saying, probably it is just pointing to the source of the attack. In fact, such saying is quite popular in the LC too. I think they sometimes might have misrecognized certain acts of God to be from Satan.

You know what, neither WL needs to be omnipresent to implant his teachings to the LCers. He doesn't even need the Internet. A publishing house and a team of minions will do.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:36 PM   #52
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Why does Satan need to be "manufactured" omnipresent? He simply corrupted humanilty and the law of sin and death now operates autonomously within the flesh. He doesn't need to be there at all. Of course, from time to time, he might send out his minions too.

As for the "attacks from Satan" saying, probably it is just pointing to the source of the attack. In fact, such saying is quite popular in the LC too. I think they sometimes might have misrecognized certain acts of God to be from Satan.

You know what, neither WL needs to be omnipresent to implant his teachings to the LCers. He doesn't even need the Internet. A publishing house and a team of minions will do.
Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:47 PM   #53
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Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).
Nice to have different opinions. From the link:

Humans do not operate themselves, since Paul says that we are either operated by the spirit of sin which indwells us, “it is no longer I but sin” (Rom. 7:17, 20), or we are operated by the spirit of Christ

Let me ask you a question, how did Adam operate before he commit the first sin?
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:04 AM   #54
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Let me ask you a question, how did Adam operate before he commit the first sin?
Probably operated by God. At first, I thought he was saying that mankind had no free will, but he clarifies that here:

There is no independently operating human self or nature in the New Testament. So does this abolish our free will? By no means, recognizing what we do not control enables us to recognize what is within our control: we have the choice to take God at His word and trust Him, or we can continue to trust Satan’s deception that we autonomously run our own lives.

His use of the word independent seems to mean not completely separate from either God or Satan. This reminds me that Lee called human beings a "minitature garden of Eden", and also reminds me as sometimes portrayed in movies, a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other.
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Old 04-24-2018, 06:50 AM   #55
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Also, I would just like to add....
I am so grateful for Drake and Evangelical being open to discuss these things...thank you brothers....
And thank you to the brothers who helped me make this point with references!!
Seeing this error really was a huge turning point for me....and I am filled up with love for all of the saints! Credit....Jesus
Sure. Happy to.

Matthew 16:23 “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”

ByHismercy,

Was Peter Satan? Please explain your answer.

Thanks
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:30 PM   #56
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Sure. Happy to.

Matthew 16:23 “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”

ByHismercy,

Was Peter Satan? Please explain your answer.

Thanks
Drake
Hi Drake,

In all fairness, yesterday you demanded to see in print the words of WL....to prove that I was not lying about his erroneous teaching. When 2 kind brothers obliged you, you neither acknowledged the truth presented, nor apologized for calling my testimony fraudulent. If you read my entire post, you will know exactly where I stand on Satanic posession.

I like to tell my kids, if they can't play fair, and with kindness, they are not allowed to join in. I think that is more than fair to expect that of all people. Simple.

Besides that, the burden is actually on you, if you want to prove WLs teaching on Satan indwelling all people was biblically sound. I can see it is not when I look into Gods word. I have been really clear and really honest, and I don't play games.

What did you think/feel when you read the words of WL and his expounding of Satan in our flesh? I mean, you were so eager to know....I was really looking forward to your reaction...

Thanks
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:35 PM   #57
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Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).
Evangelical,

Where does the devil flee to when we resist him? Does he exit the flesh and then come back later that night? Does he find a hidden corner of the flesh where we simply don't notice his indwelling of our beings? How can he both abide in us, and flee?
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:52 PM   #58
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Hi Drake,

In all fairness, yesterday you demanded to see in print the words of WL....to prove that I was not lying about his erroneous teaching. When 2 kind brothers obliged you, you neither acknowledged the truth presented, nor apologized for calling my testimony fraudulent. If you read my entire post, you will know exactly where I stand on Satanic posession.

I like to tell my kids, if they can't play fair, and with kindness, they are not allowed to join in. I think that is more than fair to expect that of all people. Simple.

Besides that, the burden is actually on you, if you want to prove WLs teaching on Satan indwelling all people was biblically sound. I can see it is not when I look into Gods word. I have been really clear and really honest, and I don't play games.

What did you think/feel when you read the words of WL and his expounding of Satan in our flesh? I mean, you were so eager to know....I was really looking forward to your reaction...

Thanks
Sure.

I think Brother Lee meant it the same way that the Lord Jesus meant it when he called Peter "Satan".

Was Peter really Satan? Or did Jesus mean that Peter was conducting himself in a way that reflected the mind of Satan (e.g. a Satan principle was operating)? I believe the latter not the former because Jesus explained to Peter that the characterization was related to his mind. His mind or his thought process was characterized as Satan. However, here is another situation a bit more difficult to explain that way:

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot who was one of the Twelve"

In this case, did Satan enter Judas? I would say yes because it says it directly and there is no reference to his mind, that is, there is not a qualification about what "Satan entered Judas" meant. Probably the Antichrist will have the actual Satan enter him too or so it appears from the related prophecies.

Therefore, it would appear that both examples of entering a person as a Satan principle or as the real Satan is confirmed in scripture. I therefore, assess that the teaching of Witness Lee is right down the center as Evangelical has pointed out very thoroughly.... the substance of the argument that you avoided and instead retreated to a more general line of defense along the lines of believing God but not His servants (for which there is no scriptural precedence either... yet that is a different discussion).

Drake
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:39 PM   #59
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Where does the devil flee to when we resist him? Does he exit the flesh and then come back later that night? Does he find a hidden corner of the flesh where we simply don't notice his indwelling of our beings? How can he both abide in us, and flee?
byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:41 PM   #60
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the substance of the argument that you avoided and instead retreated to a more general line of defense along the lines of believing God but not His servants (for which there is no scriptural precedence either... yet that is a different discussion).

Drake
Thank you for this thoughtful response, Drake. I really appreciate the discourse.
And to the point of believing God but not His servants....I have to say my receiving of counsil by my brothers and sisters in Christ is not what I am opposed to. It is the history of Lee and his ministry that makes him highly suspect in my mind as one whos counsil should be received. Turning the saints into merchandise made Jesus really angry and I don't like it either. Keeping his son Philip in the LSM office as he molested married sisters, discarding brothers who tried to take a stand against the evils of his son, shifting the saints tithes around into various business ventures, dividing the body of Christ to his own selfish gain, and control....so many issues that I am now aware of....this man was not living before the Lord, and I would not look to him for his vision of Gods word, ever.

His comment on the saints losing their money....how they "lost their virginity" after he knowingly fleeced them. That alone is enough to sicken me, and I am betting I'm not alone in that. He was a person I wouldn't have around my children....much less the Minister of the Age. Gimme a break.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:55 PM   #61
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byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)
I know, Ohio. I want all my brothers and sisters in Christ to be released from deception of all kinds.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:17 PM   #62
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I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense.
I have heard a number of saints who worked directly with Witness Lee state that he would sometimes take days to choose a specific word to make sure it most accurately conveyed the meaning he wanted with no unintended misunderstandings, so that everyone who read his books – from the most highly educated to the lowest, and from the most intelligent to the least (yes even those of low intelligence who you are claiming are so moronic as to take his statement at face value) – would not misunderstand what he meant. Lee was aware that those of varying levels of intelligence would be reading, and strove diligently to be readily understood by them all.

I have also read decades enough of his works to know that he was not one to save paper but instead frequently “hammered it home” when it came to repeating himself in ever so slightly different ways so that the reader would get his point and there would not be resulting interpretations of his interpretation. For example, “We must see that Christ is the good land. He is the good land! The good land is a person! Who is the good land? It is Christ! Hallelujah we have all seen that Christ is the good land!” (this is not a real example from the ministry but I think anyone who has read some of it will recognize that repetitive word-pattern).

He also had those helping him who would read, re-read, and scour the books before they were published to make sure that what was printed was really what he meant.

My point in saying that is to show that there is no reason for Lee not to have used “the spirit of Satan” if that is what he meant. To say, “if it helps, just replace [word he used] with [this other phrase he could have easily chosen to use to make it more accurate and understandable but did not]” denies the entire way he wrote everything else. He never left it up to the reader to synthesize the facts or carry out their own interpretation of his speaking, but stated what he meant simply, clearly, and repetitively. If Lee “obviously meant” “the spirit of Satan” then that is what would be stated (at least once)!

I’m not getting into whether Lee is right or wrong, but to start saying “it all makes sense if you put something different there that he did not write” causes it to unravel pretty fast.
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Old 04-25-2018, 05:14 AM   #63
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Thank you for this thoughtful response, Drake. I really appreciate the discourse.
And to the point of believing God but not His servants....I have to say my receiving of counsil by my brothers and sisters in Christ is not what I am opposed to. It is the history of Lee and his ministry that makes him highly suspect in my mind as one whos counsil should be received. Turning the saints into merchandise made Jesus really angry and I don't like it either. Keeping his son Philip in the LSM office as he molested married sisters, discarding brothers who tried to take a stand against the evils of his son, shifting the saints tithes around into various business ventures, dividing the body of Christ to his own selfish gain, and control....so many issues that I am now aware of....this man was not living before the Lord, and I would not look to him for his vision of Gods word, ever.

His comment on the saints losing their money....how they "lost their virginity" after he knowingly fleeced them. That alone is enough to sicken me, and I am betting I'm not alone in that. He was a person I wouldn't have around my children....much less the Minister of the Age. Gimme a break.
Well Ok.

But what does that have to do with the discussion about Peter being Satan, or Satan entering Judas, or sin being the personification of Satan, or Satan entering Antichrist.?

Drake
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Old 04-25-2018, 05:37 AM   #64
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byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)
Ohio,

You say you believe that sin dwells in you but you failed to define what sin is, or how it can dwell in you. In your view is sin an inanimate force like gravity? If so, how can sin deceive you?

Do you really disagree with the following explanation and if so, what is your alternative explanation? Or are you just disagreeing because Brother Lee said it and that is what you’re supposed to do here?

Drake

——————————————————————
SIN BEING SATAN HIMSELF IN OUR FLESH

Now we need to see what sin is. Sin is not evil deeds such as hating and killing others. These are outward doings. They are not sin itself. Sin itself, according to the Bible’s revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him. We can use the illustration of a black bookmark being placed within a book. The book may be likened to something created by God and the black bookmark to sin being placed within it. One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you.

Sin is a living person. Romans says that sin can deceive us, kill us (7:11), and lord it over us, that is, have dominion over us (6:12, 14). All these activities prove that sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh.

Paul says in Romans 7 that he practiced what he hated (v. 15). Since this was the case, he says, “It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me” (v. 17). Paul uses the phrase no longer I twice. In Galatians 2:20 he says, “It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” In Romans 7 he says, “It is no longer I...but sin that dwells in me.” Sin is another person within us. I may like to do something, but eventually I do not do it. Instead, I do what I hate. So it is no longer I, but another person who does it. This person is in my flesh. Paul says, “I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells” (v. 18). In my flesh nothing good dwells, because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

Some people do not believe that there is such a person as Satan in this universe. They do not know that this person, whom they do not believe exists, is in their flesh. They do not believe that Satan exists, and they do not know that while they are saying this, Satan is speaking in their speaking. They speak for Satan, whom they do not believe exists. Satan is in man’s flesh.”
The Flesh and the Spirit, Witness Lee
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Old 04-25-2018, 05:52 AM   #65
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Well Ok.

But what does that have to do with the discussion about Peter being Satan, or Satan entering Judas, or sin being the personification of Satan, or Satan entering Antichrist.?

Drake
I think this is well covered by Nigel Thome already. Perhaps you can start by reading it more seriously.

Scripture only identifies one person as indwelt by Satan; that is Judas, the betrayer. During the last supper, we are told that “Satan entered into Judas
” (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). J. Stafford Wright notes “Satan is only once said to have entered into a person, i.e. Judas.” This is a counter-example to LSM’s teaching about Satan’s indwelling. Stated rhetorically--If Satan (the person) indwells everyone’s flesh, Satan would not have needed to enter Judas; he would already be there!
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:19 AM   #66
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I think this is well covered by Nigel Thome already. Perhaps you can start by reading it more seriously.

Scripture only identifies one person as indwelt by Satan; that is Judas, the betrayer. During the last supper, we are told that “Satan entered into Judas
” (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). J. Stafford Wright notes “Satan is only once said to have entered into a person, i.e. Judas.” This is a counter-example to LSM’s teaching about Satan’s indwelling. Stated rhetorically--If Satan (the person) indwells everyone’s flesh, Satan would not have needed to enter Judas; he would already be there!
ALB,

I've read Dr. Tomes articles and frankly they are shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions. In general, his writings are verbose and attempt to establish credibility by overwhelming the reader with volume as opposed to substance. Sad for an economics professor who should know how to apply his secular discipline to make a compelling argument on matters related to God. But thanks for your exhortation opening the door to clarify my views on Dr. Tomes ramblings. Happy to do that anytime prompted else I probably would have ignored it.

I'd rather hear what you have to say on this topic providing you too do not also get overly verbose and long winded. Let's have a conversation. Perhaps you would like to take a crack at explaining why Jesus called Peter Satan. Was Peter really Satan? Why does sin dwell or how can sin deceive if not a personification of some sentient entity? Still, if you insist you can quote Tomes, if he represents your viewpoint, but hopefully you can articulate your own viewpoint without redirecting your argument into "Nigel Tomes said...".

Thanks
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:33 AM   #67
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On this topic, for those who think that sin is some inanimate force like gravity as opposed to a personification of a sentient being as Brother Lee teaches why then does Paul describe indwelling of Christ and the indwelling of sin using similar expressions?

Galatians 2:20 "It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me"

Romans 7:17 "It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me"

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Old 04-25-2018, 06:57 AM   #68
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I'd rather hear what you have to say on this topic providing you too do not also get overly verbose and long winded. Let's have a conversation. Perhaps you would like to take a crack at explaining why Jesus called Peter Satan. Was Peter really Satan? Why does sin dwell or how can sin deceive if not a personification of some sentient entity? Still, if you insist you can quote Tomes, if he represents your viewpoint, but hopefully you can articulate your own viewpoint without redirecting your argument into "Nigel Tomes said...".
If Satan can enter Judas, it is possible that he entered Peter at that time too.

I am not theologically trained so my way to approach this is simple. Don't laugh at my reasoning but if you want to know, allow me to start with this question:

Did Satan know Jesus' plan to die for us on the cross to redeem our sin?
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:17 AM   #69
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If Satan can enter Judas, it is possible that he entered Peter at that time too.

I am not theologically trained so my way to approach this is simple. Don't laugh at my reasoning but if you want to know, allow me to start with this question:

Did Satan know Jesus' plan to die for us on the cross to redeem our sin?
He didn't actually "redeem our sin"..... he redeemed us.

Yet, I don't think Satan knew the plan of salvation... but why do you ask?

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Old 04-25-2018, 07:27 AM   #70
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He didn't actually "redeem our sin"..... he redeemed us.

Yet, I don't think Satan knew the plan of salvation... but why do you ask?

Drake
Oh, thanks. I stand corrected. You are right about the redemption. He redeemed us, not our sin.

Back to the question, if Satan did not know, why did he want to stop Jesus in Mat 16:22? Even if he did not know before Mat 16:21. Now Jesus spoke about his plan and Satan certainly knew Jesus would not lie. So should Satan have known after this?
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:04 AM   #71
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Ohio, You say you believe that sin dwells in you but you failed to define what sin is, or how it can dwell in you. In your view is sin an inanimate force like gravity? If so, how can sin deceive you?

Do you really disagree with the following explanation and if so, what is your alternative explanation? Or are you just disagreeing because Brother Lee said it and that is what you’re supposed to do here? -- Drake

——————————————————————
SIN BEING SATAN HIMSELF IN OUR FLESH

Now we need to see what sin is. Sin is not evil deeds such as hating and killing others. These are outward doings. They are not sin itself. Sin itself, according to the Bible’s revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him. We can use the illustration of a black bookmark being placed within a book. The book may be likened to something created by God and the black bookmark to sin being placed within it. One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you.

Sin is a living person. Romans says that sin can deceive us, kill us (7:11), and lord it over us, that is, have dominion over us (6:12, 14). All these activities prove that sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh.

Paul says in Romans 7 that he practiced what he hated (v. 15). Since this was the case, he says, “It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me” (v. 17). Paul uses the phrase no longer I twice. In Galatians 2:20 he says, “It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” In Romans 7 he says, “It is no longer I...but sin that dwells in me.” Sin is another person within us. I may like to do something, but eventually I do not do it. Instead, I do what I hate. So it is no longer I, but another person who does it. This person is in my flesh. Paul says, “I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells” (v. 18). In my flesh nothing good dwells, because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

Some people do not believe that there is such a person as Satan in this universe. They do not know that this person, whom they do not believe exists, is in their flesh. They do not believe that Satan exists, and they do not know that while they are saying this, Satan is speaking in their speaking. They speak for Satan, whom they do not believe exists. Satan is in man’s flesh.”
The Flesh and the Spirit, Witness Lee
This is an interesting window into the mind of a long time Lee follower:

I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not. The teachings of Lee are his standard of reference, not the actual scripture.

I and others have already stated that Satan does not dwell within us, but rather sin does. I quoted a verse. I referenced an article by Nigel Tomes who followed Lee closely for decades. Tomes' article is extremely well written, well-documented, and based both on the word of God and Biblical scholars.

In usual fashion, reminiscent of previous LSMer posters, Drake belittles Tomes and dismisses his entire article:
Quote:
Drake: I've read Dr. Tomes articles and frankly they are shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions. In general, his writings are verbose and attempt to establish credibility by overwhelming the reader with volume as opposed to substance. Sad for an economics professor who should know how to apply his secular discipline to make a compelling argument on matters related to God. But thanks for your exhortation opening the door to clarify my views on Dr. Tomes ramblings. Happy to do that anytime prompted else I probably would have ignored it.
Folks, this quote from Drake is standard LSM boilerplate to discredit their critics. I have seen it for decades. If Tomes is brief, he is condemned. If Tomes is thorough, then he is condemned as "verbose, overwhelming with volume." Notice how every phrase of this quote is no different than biased, political spin we hear in the daily news cycle.

Drake never sees Lee's "shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions." Concerning Satan dwelling in our flesh, Drake completely misses Lee's own "leaps" from sin to Satan Himself. But that is another story.

This is just one more in a series of speculations, long promoted by Lee, yet not supported by scripture. My goal for the "Recovery" is that they return to their scriptural roots, and de-leaven their ministry of exclusive and extra-biblical teachings which serve only to divide the body of Christ.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:43 AM   #72
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Oh, thanks. I stand corrected. You are right about the redemption. He redeemed us, not our sin.

Back to the question, if Satan did not know, why did he want to stop Jesus in Mat 16:22? Even if he did not know before Mat 16:21. Now Jesus spoke about his plan and Satan certainly knew Jesus would not lie. So should Satan have known after this?
That is in interesting question, ALB.

Jesus did tell His disciples everything that was going to happen to Him. Did Satan find out at that time what Jesus' plan was? Did Satan upon hearing this plan enter Peter in a similar way he entered Judas to thwart the Lord's intention?

Its plausible but I don't think so and here's why.

If Satan knew of the plan of redemption he didn't need to stop it by using Peter... he could have stopped it by calling the Romans off or changing the minds of the chief priest so they never prosecuted Him. There is a verse that says something to the effect of "if the powers knew that the Lord was going to the cross..." . Well, I cannot recall it.

Anyway, I think then that Peter being called Satan was because his mind was emulating the mind of Satan... operating in the flesh, the good flesh mind you, but still operating not according to the things of God but the things of men.

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Old 04-25-2018, 08:47 AM   #73
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I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not.
Either will suffice.

Prove or disprove your beliefs .....and I don't care how you do it.

Please proceed.

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Old 04-25-2018, 09:19 AM   #74
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Either will suffice.

Prove or disprove your beliefs .....and I don't care how you do it.

Please proceed.

Drake
-15

see verse
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:07 AM   #75
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On this topic, for those who think that sin is some inanimate force like gravity as opposed to a personification of a sentient being as Brother Lee teaches why then does Paul describe indwelling of Christ and the indwelling of sin using similar expressions?

Galatians 2:20 "It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me"

Romans 7:17 "It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me"

Drake
Drake, isn't it ironic that you and are using the same verse to prove our disparate points?
I believe it says sin dwells in in me....

And I believe you are translating "sin dwells in me" to "Satan dwells in me". Is that right? Why not just take the Lords word exactly as spoken, if it meant avoiding error, brother?

I mean, you would never substitute the name Christ for another name of your choosing, right? Sin isnt Satan, same way no other name substitutes for the precious and most high name of the Lord Jesus!

Last edited by byHismercy; 04-25-2018 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Needed to add
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:21 AM   #76
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Well Ok.

But what does that have to do with the discussion about Peter being Satan, or Satan entering Judas, or sin being the personification of Satan, or Satan entering Antichrist.?

Drake
Hi Drake, it wasn't meant to address those points, it was not related back to that...I was answering to your point about receiving a believers expounding of the bible...receiving the counsel of many provides a protection for us....the Bereans were praised for receiving the apostles gospel of Christ by being ready of mind and searching all the things they were taught in the scripture....I think the Lord is leading me to emulate the Bereans model....I would not have fallen into deception if I had been searching the scripture in the first place, when I came into contact with the Lee ministry 20+ years ago.

Sorry for going off topic...I just wanted you to know that I deeply believe in counsel,of many saints....fellowship of saints.....searching the scriptures.....just because I reject the Lee ministry as a false thing....I don't reject all teaching from the body...

I'll try to stay on point....I am not always in my lane:
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Old 04-25-2018, 12:30 PM   #77
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This is an interesting window into the mind of a long time Lee follower:

I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not. The teachings of Lee are his standard of reference, not the actual scripture.

I and others have already stated that Satan does not dwell within us, but rather sin does. I quoted a verse. I referenced an article by Nigel Tomes who followed Lee closely for decades. Tomes' article is extremely well written, well-documented, and based both on the word of God and Biblical scholars.

In usual fashion, reminiscent of previous LSMer posters, Drake belittles Tomes and dismisses his entire article:Folks, this quote from Drake is standard LSM boilerplate to discredit their critics. I have seen it for decades. If Tomes is brief, he is condemned. If Tomes is thorough, then he is condemned as "verbose, overwhelming with volume." Notice how every phrase of this quote is no different than biased, political spin we hear in the daily news cycle.

Drake never sees Lee's "shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions." Concerning Satan dwelling in our flesh, Drake completely misses Lee's own "leaps" from sin to Satan Himself. But that is another story.

This is just one more in a series of speculations, long promoted by Lee, yet not supported by scripture. My goal for the "Recovery" is that they return to their scriptural roots, and de-leaven their ministry of exclusive and extra-biblical teachings which serve only to divide the body of Christ.

I am starting to realize this, Ohio. It really is as if the Lee ministry is elevated so far above the word of God for some folks. What a vile trap of Gods enemy! What a misstep! May the Lord Jesus lead them out of deception....may He keep us all from the enemys snare....

What a sad lie to reconcile as the truth....in spite of Gods word...to be set in yourself to believe that Satan lives in your flesh....how horrible! It is bad enough that we fell and have to cope with sin dwelling in our flesh!

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Witness Lee speaking was only infused with his breath, which apparently stank.
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Old 04-25-2018, 12:39 PM   #78
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Drake, isn't it ironic that you and are using the same verse to prove our disparate points?
I believe it says sin dwells in in me....

And I believe you are translating "sin dwells in me" to "Satan dwells in me". Is that right? Why not just take the Lords word exactly as spoken, if it meant avoiding error, brother?

I mean, you would never substitute the name Christ for another name of your choosing, right? Sin isnt Satan, same way no other name substitutes for the precious and most high name of the Lord Jesus!
Okay. Sin dwells in you. How does sin deceive you?

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Old 04-25-2018, 01:37 PM   #79
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Okay. Sin dwells in you. How does sin deceive you?

Drake
James 1.13-16: Let no man say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God," for God can't be tempted by evil, and He Himself tempts no one. But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death. Don't be deceived, my beloved brothers.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:22 PM   #80
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One thing that seems consistent with the Lee/LC stance on Satan indwelling humanitys' flesh...is the seeming contradictory statements abound...Ex: Satan is not omnipresent, but indwelling all....Lee said it, but not really, what he meant was....

Then what God spoke in 1 Tim 6:20-21.....O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverant babble AND CONTRADICTIONS of what is falsely called "knowledge," for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:31 PM   #81
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Its plausible but I don't think so and here's why.

If Satan knew of the plan of redemption he didn't need to stop it by using Peter... he could have stopped it by calling the Romans off or changing the minds of the chief priest so they never prosecuted Him. There is a verse that says something to the effect of "if the powers knew that the Lord was going to the cross..." . Well, I cannot recall it.

Anyway, I think then that Peter being called Satan was because his mind was emulating the mind of Satan... operating in the flesh, the good flesh mind you, but still operating not according to the things of God but the things of men.
If you think Peter was emulating the mind of Satan, doesn't it mean Satan himself was not operating in his flesh?

Here is my reasoning:
1. It is very likely Satan did not hear what Jesus said at all. That means Satan did not indwell the flesh (of Peter or other disciples there); or

2. If Satan did hear Jesus' words (based on the theory of Satan indwelling the flesh), even if he did not fully comprehend the wisdom in the plan, doesn't it make sense to stop Jesus' foretold death from happening whatever it means? Afterall, as you said, he can simply call the Romans off. From this, I propose Satan does not indwell flesh.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:44 PM   #82
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Okay. Sin dwells in you. How does sin deceive you?

Drake
Hi Drake, can you give me the verse reference to this matter of sin deceiving us? I can't find it...but, I think I understand what you are saying...how can sin deceive if it is not a person.....in the same way, God let love be personified in 1 Cor. 13....love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.......vs 13 So now faith, hope, and love ABIDE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Here love is personified, yet we know it is NOT A PERSON, it is a fruit of the Spirit!
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:52 PM   #83
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Hi Drake, can you give me the verse reference to this matter of sin deceiving us? I can't find it...
Hi byHismercy,

Romans 7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

Sin took occasion, deceived, and slew Paul.

Sin has been pretty busy.

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Old 04-25-2018, 04:23 PM   #84
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Hi byHismercy,

Romans 7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

Sin took occasion, deceived, and slew Paul.

Sin has been pretty busy.

Drake
Ok thanks Drake, this is good. I am reading through this portion Rom 7. In vs 23 we see that the law of sin dwells in our members, and Vs 22 the writer delights in the law of God, and the law of my mind is mentioned as well, and 8:2 the law of sin and death. In 7:8 sin lies dead, then revives when the commandment came. In vs 13 God said THAT SIN MIGHT BE SHOWN TO BE SIN.

I think the Lord really wanted us to know SIN IS SIN. Really interesting, don't you think? He knew there would be a great confusion, an erroneous teaching....He is so very clear....
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Old 04-25-2018, 05:54 PM   #85
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Hi Drake, can you give me the verse reference to this matter of sin deceiving us? I can't find it...but, I think I understand what you are saying...how can sin deceive if it is not a person.....in the same way, God let love be personified in 1 Cor. 13....love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.......vs 13 So now faith, hope, and love ABIDE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Here love is personified, yet we know it is NOT A PERSON, it is a fruit of the Spirit!
Why is it personified? Maybe because "God is love", and God is a person.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:07 PM   #86
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Why is it personified? Maybe because "God is love", and God is a person.
But there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13. This is the "better way" recommended by the writer for the saints in Corinth. This is exhortation and definition for their love to one another.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:37 PM   #87
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I think the Lord really wanted us to know SIN IS SIN. Really interesting, don't you think? He knew there would be a great confusion, an erroneous teaching....He is so very clear....
Well said! If Satan is dwelling in our flesh, this is certainly an important piece of information Paul would write about.

I always feel that God's wisdom is so wonderful that His mistery is not hidden as obscured parts in the scripture. Some are just there in the plain text yet many people are not able to see. And they try to build complicated theological systems and terminology on top to make the truth more difficult to see.

WL was particularly fond of saying "X is a person" as if it represents some higher truth or knowledge. And this habit is inherited by many LCers. I just did a quick search...
Sin is a person, life is a person, grace is a person, justification is a person, our oneness is a person, the "place" in John 14 is a person, the sower is a person, the seed is a person, the kingdom is a person, ...

It is like when God wants to tell us what to do by being specific, WL would hold us back by pointing everything back to the "person" so that we don't do anything and just "eat the Lord". Ends up many became sayers than doers.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:38 PM   #88
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Why is it personified? Maybe because "God is love", and God is a person.
Is "God is Love" equivalent to "Love is God"?
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:47 PM   #89
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But there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13. This is the "better way" recommended by the writer for the saints in Corinth. This is exhortation and definition for their love to one another.
One can replace the word love in 1 Cor 13 with God
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:48 PM   #90
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Is "God is Love" equivalent to "Love is God"?
If it is "God's love is God" then yes. If it is "human love is God", then no. If we experience God's love then we experience God. The qualities of God cannot be separated from His person. Joy, love, peace etc, do not exist independently from a person.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:51 PM   #91
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If it is "God's love is God" then yes. If it is "human love is God", then no. If we experience God's love then we experience God. The qualities of God cannot be separated from His person. Joy, love, peace etc, do not exist independently from a person.
Then how could you deduce "Love" is a person? What actually does this mean?
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:53 PM   #92
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Then how could you deduce "Love" is a person?
Your love is your person
Fred's love is his person
God's love is His person.

When you love someone, that is you loving them, it is not you and this independent part of you called love.

etc
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:57 PM   #93
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Your love is your person
Fred's love is his person
God's love is His person.

When you love someone, that is you loving them, it is not you and this independent part of you called love.

etc
So when we say "love" alone, what (or who) is the person?

Don't you see the person is not in the "love", but the "Your/Fred's/God's" before it?
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:10 PM   #94
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So when we say "love" alone, what (or who) is the person?
That depends on the context and why we may need further clarification. I know that 1 Cor 13 refers to God's love because the word love in 1 Cor 13 is the word ἀγάπη agape which is God's unconditional love.

So we may say "God's love is patient.. God's love is kind". etc.


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Don't you see the person is not in the "love", but the "Your/Fred's/God's" before it?
In 1 Cor 13 for example, it only says love, but that this refers to God's love is known because it uses the word 'agape'.

So Ohio who said "But there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13" is clearly wrong since it uses the word 'agape'.

Now God's love and God himself are hard to separate. If we could separate them as you are trying to do, then we could say "I experienced God's love but I did not experience God". This is like saying "his arm touched me but he did not touch me". This does not make much sense. And remember the woman who touched Jesus's garment, and Jesus said "who touched Me".
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:39 PM   #95
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Hi Drake, can you give me the verse reference to this matter of sin deceiving us? I can't find it...but, I think I understand what you are saying...how can sin deceive if it is not a person.....in the same way, God let love be personified in 1 Cor. 13....love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.......vs 13 So now faith, hope, and love ABIDE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Here love is personified, yet we know it is NOT A PERSON, it is a fruit of the Spirit!
Love is personified because the word love in Greek used in 1 Cor 13 is "agape" which refers to God's love. The point of 1 Cor 13 is not to define love but to apply God's agape love to their situation.

Now if (God's) love is not a person, then why does 1 John 4:16 say if we dwell in His love we dwell in God?

1 John 4:16 ...God is love, and everyone who dwells in love dwells in God
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:42 PM   #96
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That depends on the context and why we may need further clarification. I know that 1 Cor 13 refers to God's love because the word love in 1 Cor 13 is the word ἀγάπη agape which is God's unconditional love.

So we may say "God's love is patient.. God's love is kind". etc.

In 1 Cor 13 for example, it only says love, but that this refers to God's love is known because it uses the word 'agape'.

So Ohio who said "But there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13" is clearly wrong since it uses the word 'agape'.

Now God's love and God himself are hard to separate. If we could separate them as you are trying to do, then we could say "I experienced God's love but I did not experience God". This is like saying "his arm touched me but he did not touch me". This does not make much sense. And remember the woman who touched Jesus's garment, and Jesus said "who touched Me".
I would suggest you to check the use of agape in Luke 6:32, John 3:19, John 12:43, 2 Timothy 4:10, 2 Peter 2:15, 1 John 2:15.

You will then find agape doesn't always mean god's love.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:02 PM   #97
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I would suggest you to check the use of agape in Luke 6:32, John 3:19, John 12:43, 2 Timothy 4:10, 2 Peter 2:15, 1 John 2:15.

You will then find agape doesn't always mean god's love.
I'm more interested in what it means in 1 Cor 13.

Outside of the New Testament, the word agape is used in a variety of contexts, but in the New Testament it takes on a distinct meaning. Agape is used to describe the love that is of and from God, whose very nature is love itself: “God is love” (1 John 4:8). God does not merely love; He is love itself.

https://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

It is interesting that you are disputing fairly standard interpretations of 1 Cor 13 to say that it does not mean God's love. I find that people's knowledge of the Bible on this forum, in general, is poor. So poor in fact, that it suits many to deny even what is commonly believed in Christianity, so that I don't even have to "defend Lee", rather, simply quote what is stated on many evangelical websites such as gotquestions.org.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:13 PM   #98
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I'm more interested in what it means in 1 Cor 13.
I am not surprised, many people are more interested in what they want to see instead of what God wants them to see.

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Outside of the New Testament, the word agape is used in a variety of contexts, but in the New Testament it takes on a distinct meaning. Agape is used to describe the love that is of and from God, whose very nature is love itself: “God is love” (1 John 4:8). God does not merely love; He is love itself.

https://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

It is interesting that you are disputing fairly standard interpretations of 1 Cor 13 to say that it does not mean God's love. I find that people's knowledge of the Bible on this forum, in general, is poor. So poor in fact, that it suits many to deny even what is commonly believed in Christianity.
Don't twist what I said. I was just pointing out your mistake saying "apape" means God's love. The verses I referred to prove it.

1 Cor 13 is talking about God's love. Not because of "agape" but the whole context. The "person" is not in the "agape" but the "God's" in the context. We simply know the kind of love mentioned by Paul there could not come from anyone else but God.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:22 PM   #99
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Don't twist what I said. I was just pointing out your mistake saying "apape" means God's love. The verses I referred to prove it. 1 Cor 13 is talking about God's love. But not because of "agape" but the whole context. The "person" is not in the "agape" but the "God's" in the context. We simply know the kind of love mentioned by Paul there could not come from anyone else but God.
Technically not a mistake, because it does mean God's love. It is often used to describe God's love, but can be used in a negative context. Still, given that the word is not used negatively in 1 Cor 13, I don't really see the relevance of your additional information.

So based on the part highlighted in bold which you wrote, you probably agree with me that Ohio is wrong when he said:

" there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13".
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:36 PM   #100
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Technically not a mistake, because it does mean God's love. It is often used to describe God's love, but can be used in a negative context. Still, given that the word is not used negatively in 1 Cor 13, I don't really see the relevance of your additional information.

So based on the part highlighted in bold which you wrote, you probably agree with me that Ohio is wrong when he said:

" there is no reference to God's love in this section of I Cor 13".
Here comes the infamous LC-style terminology twisting again.

If Ohio means there is no literal reference to God's love in 1 Cor 13, then he is not wrong. (Sorry, may be I am doing the word play I learned from LC too. I'd better leave it to Ohio himself to comment what he truly meant.)
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:47 PM   #101
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Here comes the infamous LC-style terminology twisting again.

If Ohio means there is no literal reference to God's love in 1 Cor 13, then he is not wrong. (Sorry, may be I am doing the word play I learned from LC too. I'd better leave it to Ohio himself to comment what he truly meant.)
Or we could say, in English, Ohio is correct. In Greek however, Ohio is wrong because there are different words for love and the meaning should be apparent.

But whether or not 1 Cor 13 refers to God's love is really not the point. The point is - can God's love be separated from God's person? I would say no because Scripture says "God is love", indicating that love is not just something God does, but something God is.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:59 PM   #102
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Or we could say, in English, Ohio is correct. In Greek however, Ohio is wrong because there are different words for love and the meaning should be apparent.
Dear brother, I really don't know what to do with you. After pointing out all the scripture references showing the Greek word agape does not always mean God's love, you still insist. Since when gotquestions.org became a more authoritative source of truth than the scripture?

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But whether or not 1 Cor 13 refers to God's love is really not the point. The point is - can God's love be separated from God's person? I would say no because Scripture says "God is love", indicating that love is not just something God does, but something God is.
Paul also said in Rom 8 nothing can separate us from God's love. So if love is the person of God, and we cannot be separated from it, so we are person of Love, and then we are the person of God?
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:06 PM   #103
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Since when gotquestions.org became a more authoritative source of truth than the scripture?:
ALB,

Don’t kid yourself. Everyone here is having a scriptural conversation.

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Old 04-25-2018, 09:07 PM   #104
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ALB,

Don’t kid yourself. Everyone here is having a scriptural conversation.

Drake
I certainly hope we are having a scriptural conversation, but couldn't help wondering given Evangelical's response.

BTW, hope my discussion with Evangelical hasn't interrupted the discussion with you. Feel free to continue with what we were discussing previously.

Apologies to byHismercy too. Hope I didn't hijack your thread too far away.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:21 PM   #105
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Dear brother, I really don't know what to do with you. After pointing out all the scripture references showing the Greek word agape does not always mean God's love, you still insist. Since when gotquestions.org became a more authoritative source of truth than the scripture?
I already agreed with you that it does not always mean God's love and we have already established that the word agape in 1 Cor 13 refers to God's love. So "agape does not always mean..you still insist" is not relevant, is it? In 1 Cor 13, the word agape, always means, God's love. Paul must have thought it obvious to any Greek reader that he was referring to God's love, because he used the word agape. This is because the Greek word agape was hardly ever used in Greek-speaking societies but in the New Testament it is used over 300 times. So it would be unlikely for a Greek speaker to wrongly interpret the word 'agape' as a natural kind of human love.

I think it is correct to say:

There is no literal reference to God's love in the English translation of 1 Cor 13.
There is literal reference to God's love in the Greek of 1 Cor 13 because of the words special meaning and special use by Paul.

Still, it does not bode well for anyone to be arguing from the English translation while being ignorant of the Greek because they miss the meaning completely: the intention of Paul in 1 Cor 13 was to apply God's agape love to the situation at hand, and not to provide a generic definition of natural human love.



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All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University and a Master's degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary (Kansas City, MO).



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Paul also said in Rom 8 nothing can separate us from God's love. So if love is the person of God, and we cannot be separated from it, so we are person of Love, and then we are the person of God?
A person may say "Nothing can separate us from God's love" or "Nothing can separate us from God", because "God is love".
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:33 PM   #106
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I certainly hope we are having a scriptural conversation, but couldn't help wondering given Evangelical's response.

BTW, hope my discussion with Evangelical hasn't interrupted the discussion with you. Feel free to continue with what we were discussing previously.

Apologies to byHismercy too. Hope I didn't hijack your thread too far away.
ALB,

Just because Evangelical disagrees with you does not mean he is not having a scriptural discussion and you are. That gets stated in this forum now and again as if ones opinion from reading the Bible is more worthy than someone else’s.

On our last chat, I had nothing more to contribute. What you believe and why is clear.

Thanks
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:38 PM   #107
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I certainly hope we are having a scriptural conversation, but couldn't help wondering given Evangelical's response.

BTW, hope my discussion with Evangelical hasn't interrupted the discussion with you. Feel free to continue with what we were discussing previously.

Apologies to byHismercy too. Hope I didn't hijack your thread too far away.
Please, hijack away. Bedtime calls us here. But it is not a person.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:45 PM   #108
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ALB,

Just because Evangelical disagrees with you does not mean he is not having a scriptural discussion and you are. That gets stated in this forum now and again as if ones opinion from reading the Bible is more worthy than someone else’s.

On our last chat, I had nothing more to contribute. What you believe and why is clear.

Thanks
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An informed opinion is more worthy than an uninformed one.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:46 PM   #109
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Just because Evangelical disagrees with you does not mean he is not having a scriptural discussion and you are. That gets stated in this forum now and again as if ones opinion from reading the Bible is more worthy than someone else’s.
I understand what you mean. But I don't quite understand why things simple as a word not always having the same meaning can cause so much disagreement. Anyway, I don't intend to further continue that discussion. Enough has been said.

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On our last chat, I had nothing more to contribute. What you believe and why is clear.
May I know then what you believe on the topic of Satan indwelling flesh? Any difference from what WL taught?
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:00 AM   #110
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One can replace the word love in 1 Cor 13 with God
This word substitution may sound "spiritual" to you, but not to me.

Perhaps this explains one of the reasons why TLR is so short of love.

Why is it that those in TLR only seem to love their own?

Jesus said we should love our enemies and love those who cannot repay us, but those in TLR only love those who come to their meetings. Just ask byHisMercy.

Like Jesus says, you have become no different from the Gentile sinners.

When so many testify on this forum that there is little love in TLR, perhaps the reality is that there is very little God in TLR. Go back and read the tragic story of byHismercy's excommunication, before you start playing these word games with us.

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:22 AM   #111
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May I know then what you believe on the topic of Satan indwelling flesh? Any difference from what WL taught?
ALB

Sure. I’ll even color it a little.

I believe Satan indwells our flesh in the virtual personified form of sin. The book of Romans makes it very clear that sin is and behaves like a person not a non sentient force like gravity. I do not believe that the archangel Lucifer indwells our flesh but do believe that he entered Judas and will do so again with AntiChrist. I also believe that we have inherited the sin nature from Adam’s fall and that nature is depicted as serpentine in the incident of the brass serpent. Unlike every other man, the Lord Jesus did not have the serpentine nature in dwelling His flesh, only the form as a man so He is the brass serpent. I believe Peter was expressing the mind of Satan to resist the way of the cross as part of the sin nature within him.

There is no difference between what I believe and what brother Lee taught.

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Old 04-26-2018, 07:12 AM   #112
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An informed opinion is more worthy than an uninformed one.
Most certainly!
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:29 AM   #113
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ALB

Sure. I’ll even color it a little.

I believe Satan indwells our flesh in the virtual personified form of sin. The book of Romans makes it very clear that sin is and behaves like a person not a non sentient force like gravity. I do not believe that the archangel Lucifer indwells our flesh but do believe that he entered Judas and will do so again with AntiChrist. I also believe that we have inherited the sin nature from Adam’s fall and that nature is depicted as serpentine in the incident of the brass serpent. Unlike every other man, the Lord Jesus did not have the serpentine nature in dwelling His flesh, only the form as a man so He is the brass serpent. I believe Peter was expressing the mind of Satan to resist the way of the cross as part of the sin nature within him.

There is no difference between what I believe and what brother Lee taught.

Drake
Except for the fact that Lee taught that Satan literally dwelt in every one of us.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:06 AM   #114
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ALB

Sure. I’ll even color it a little.

I believe Satan indwells our flesh in the virtual personified form of sin. The book of Romans makes it very clear that sin is and behaves like a person not a non sentient force like gravity. I do not believe that the archangel Lucifer indwells our flesh but do believe that he entered Judas and will do so again with AntiChrist. I also believe that we have inherited the sin nature from Adam’s fall and that nature is depicted as serpentine in the incident of the brass serpent. Unlike every other man, the Lord Jesus did not have the serpentine nature in dwelling His flesh, only the form as a man so He is the brass serpent. I believe Peter was expressing the mind of Satan to resist the way of the cross as part of the sin nature within him.

There is no difference between what I believe and what brother Lee taught.

Drake
What is the difference between "virtual personified form" and "a person"? You seemed to use both to describe sin. ("in the virtual personified form of sin", "sin is ... a person"). Is this a subset of the person or the whole person of Satan?
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:09 AM   #115
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What is the difference between "virtual personified form" and "a person"? You seemed to use both to describe sin. ("in the virtual personified form of sin", "sin is ... a person"). Is this a subset of the person or the whole person of Satan?
It seems like in TLR virtual reality and real reality are indistinguishable.

Another thing I noticed about TLR -- while I was there, many of us were convinced by LSM that Christianity (i.e. the greater body of Christ) was our enemy. Once I left TLR, I discovered that every other Christian and church on the planet knew who the real enemy was -- not their brother or sister in another church -- but Satan, the adversary of God, the enemy we read about in the Bible. (So simple a child could figure it out.)
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:21 AM   #116
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Except for the fact that Lee taught that Satan literally dwelt in every one of us.
Ohio,

That is how Dr. Tomes characterized what Brother Lee taught. He conveniently dismisses Brother Lee's qualifying statements such as :

"..the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

"Satan as sin is in our flesh."

"As" has meaning.

preposition: as
1. used to refer to the function or character that someone or something has.
"he got a job as a cook"
synonyms: like, in the guise of, so as to appear to be
"he was dressed as a policeman"
in the role of, being, acting as
"I'm speaking to you as your friend"


It is easier for Dr. Tomes to craft an argument and gain support from dissenters by polarizing the points Brother Lee made rather than to deal with the intended meaning as Brother Lee delivered them. He just repeats old rhetoric to rally the base. And though it works for the base, it's shoddy workmanship nevertheless.

Yet, you have yet to offer your own explanation about what sin is and how it looks for opportunity to deceive you and slay you. If you do not agree that sin is the virtual personification of Satan then what is sin? Who is the deceiver? Who roams the earth seeking whom he may devour? It is Satan. Sin deceives and slays. Satan deceives and slays. Is sin the actual fallen archangel? No. Is sin the virtual personification of the fallen archangel. Yes! What is the character of our fallen nature since the moment sin entered through disobedience? It is serpentine.

Scriptures are clear. Brother Lee was clear. It is Dr. Tomes and his followers who polarize Brother Lee's teaching.

Drake
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:05 AM   #117
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It is easier for Dr. Tomes to craft an argument and gain support from dissenters by polarizing the points Brother Lee made rather than to deal with the intended meaning as Brother Lee delivered them. He just repeats old rhetoric to rally the base. And though it works for the base, it's shoddy workmanship nevertheless.
You have become nothing more than a shill for LSM.

And these quotes in your post are just dishonest. What about the ones which both a little brother and I posted the other day. I'll provide some of Lee's quotes below since your memory appears to be shot:[INDENT][I][COLOR=purple][FONT=Verdana]"The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. [B]Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.

Sin itself, according to the Bible's revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him...One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you…Sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh…because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.”
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:55 AM   #118
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Is sin the actual fallen archangel? No. Is sin the virtual personification of the fallen archangel. Yes! What is the character of our fallen nature since the moment sin entered through disobedience? It is serpentine.

Scriptures are clear. Brother Lee was clear. It is Dr. Tomes and his followers who polarize Brother Lee's teaching.

Drake
My question would be this; if Satan is sin how is it possible that Lucifer sinned? Was Satan before Lucifer? Scripture teaches that Lucifer became Satan after he himself sinned against God.

Sin is what caused Lucifer's character or nature and subsequently his name to change.

Personification is the "embodiment" of a quality. Any certain quality needs a person for that person to be considered the personification of that quality. It could be said that Satan is the personification of sin rather than what you've stated because sin was not embodied before Satan. You're making sin a person and Satan a quality and that's completely backwards in logic and scripture.

This is also exactly the error Mr. Lee committed in his teaching equating Satan to sin. This teaching is dangerous because it essentially makes people "Satan in the flesh" and it would be hard for anyone to love an embodiment of Satan. This only works to provoke contempt for our fellow man. Remember that our fight isn't againt people but principalities in high places.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:01 AM   #119
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You have become nothing more than a shill for LSM.

And these quotes in your post are just dishonest. What about the ones which both a little brother and I posted the other day. I'll provide some of Lee's quotes below since your memory appears to be shot:[INDENT][I][COLOR=purple][FONT=Verdana]"The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. [B]Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.

Sin itself, according to the Bible's revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him...One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you…Sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh…because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan [B]as sin.”
Ohio,

Those quotes above are relevant..... when you include the how..... "Satan as sin" .... as Brother Lee taught then you understand how he meant it.

Look at your last quote above. Step out of your subjective discontent and read it. What does it say about inside and outside?

Satan outside of you is not sin. Satan in you is sin.

That is what he taught even using your own selective quotes.

Drake
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:06 PM   #120
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This word substitution may sound "spiritual" to you, but not to me.

Perhaps this explains one of the reasons why TLR is so short of love.

Why is it that those in TLR only seem to love their own?

Jesus said we should love our enemies and love those who cannot repay us, but those in TLR only love those who come to their meetings. Just ask byHisMercy.

Like Jesus says, you have become no different from the Gentile sinners.

When so many testify on this forum that there is little love in TLR, perhaps the reality is that there is very little God in TLR. Go back and read the tragic story of byHismercy's excommunication, before you start playing these word games with us.

.
I am not playing word games. I pointed to the Greek version of the Scripture for a more accurate interpretation. You posted something that was technically incorrect and could lead someone astray to think that 1Cor 13 does not mean Gods love. It is so obvious that it really shows how poor your biblical knowledge is. Everyone from John Piper to Billy Graham knows it refers to Gods love. Maybe it is that you were only referring to the literal English because it does not have the word 'God' in there. "1 cor 13 does not refer to Gods love because the word God is absent".
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:16 PM   #121
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Dr Tomes has nothing on Dr Burrowes, a man who has no relationship to Nee or Lee or the Recovery, who obtained his doctoral degree showing in his thesis that Western Christianity in general has been deceived by "saint" Augustine to believe that man has an independent sinful self which is independent of Satan.

If Burrowes is correct which is highly likely given that he has done years of research and obtained his doctorate, then it is highly likely that the real deceived ones are those propagating Augustines theology.

Lee did not have a doctorate but it is remarkable that what Lee found had been incorrectly believed in modern Chrisrianity since Augustine, should now be validated by the work of Dr Burrowes and colleagues.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:03 PM   #122
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Ohio,

That is how Dr. Tomes characterized what Brother Lee taught. He conveniently dismisses Brother Lee's qualifying statements such as :

"..the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

"Satan as sin is in our flesh."

"As" has meaning.

preposition: as
1. used to refer to the function or character that someone or something has.
"he got a job as a cook"
synonyms: like, in the guise of, so as to appear to be
"he was dressed as a policeman"
in the role of, being, acting as
"I'm speaking to you as your friend"


It is easier for Dr. Tomes to craft an argument and gain support from dissenters by polarizing the points Brother Lee made rather than to deal with the intended meaning as Brother Lee delivered them. He just repeats old rhetoric to rally the base. And though it works for the base, it's shoddy workmanship nevertheless.

Yet, you have yet to offer your own explanation about what sin is and how it looks for opportunity to deceive you and slay you. If you do not agree that sin is the virtual personification of Satan then what is sin? Who is the deceiver? Who roams the earth seeking whom he may devour? It is Satan. Sin deceives and slays. Satan deceives and slays. Is sin the actual fallen archangel? No. Is sin the virtual personification of the fallen archangel. Yes! What is the character of our fallen nature since the moment sin entered through disobedience? It is serpentine.

Scriptures are clear. Brother Lee was clear. It is Dr. Tomes and his followers who polarize Brother Lee's teaching.

Drake
Drake, what is the"virtual personification" of Satan??? I cannot even wrap my brain around what you brothers mean!! Sin is a thing....Satan is a fallen angel....I propose there is actually no such entity as a "virtual personification" of a person. I mean, there are unclean spirits, demons, Satan himself, yes. But a virtual personification???

1John 4:3
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Here, the Lord says twice that this spirit is in the world. I know earlier you mentioned you believe Satan would enter the antichrist.

Brother, how can you justify altering Gods' word?!
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:06 PM   #123
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My question would be this; if Satan is sin how is it possible that Lucifer sinned? Was Satan before Lucifer? Scripture teaches that Lucifer became Satan after he himself sinned against God.
This is such an excellent question....
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:10 PM   #124
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If Satan knew of the plan of redemption he didn't need to stop it by using Peter... he could have stopped it by calling the Romans off or changing the minds of the chief priest so they never prosecuted Him. There is a verse that says something to the effect of "if the powers knew that the Lord was going to the cross..." . Well, I cannot recall it.
1Cor 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:

However, this verse does not say that Satan could have stopped the plan of redemption, you may want to rethink that part.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:11 PM   #125
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Dr Tomes has nothing on Dr Burrowes, a man who has no relationship to Nee or Lee or the Recovery, who obtained his doctoral degree showing in his thesis that Western Christianity in general has been deceived by "saint" Augustine to believe that man has an independent sinful self which is independent of Satan.

If Burrowes is correct which is highly likely given that he has done years of research and obtained his doctorate, then it is highly likely that the real deceived ones are those propagating Augustines theology.

Lee did not have a doctorate but it is remarkable that what Lee found had been incorrectly believed in modern Chrisrianity since Augustine, should now be validated by the work of Dr Burrowes and colleagues.
Dr Tomes has a degree in economics. Maybe he is really great at economics. I don’t know. I do know that in this op-ed about what Brother Lee taught concerning Satan and sin he missed the boat badly. His methodology leads him to leave out important details... like ‘Satan as sin”.

I like that you bring in outside credible viewpoints like Dr. Burrows. Almost every forum participant has expressed indignation that Brother Lee did not surround himself with theologians to balance his ideas. That is water under the bridge but it is ironic that some participants have objected to your bringing in those outside viewpoints. Anyway, Nigel Tomes is entitled to his opinion and I am sure he is a nice brother but he is no more informed about biblical truths than anyone in this forum. Sometimes he acts less informed.

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Old 04-26-2018, 05:16 PM   #126
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Dr Tomes has a degree in economics. Maybe he is really great at economics. I don’t know. I do know that in this op-ed about what Brother Lee taught concerning Satan and sin he missed the boat badly. His methodology leads him to leave out important details... like ‘Satan as sin”.

I like that you bring in outside credible viewpoints like Dr. Burrows. Almost every forum participant has expressed indignation that Brother Lee did not surround himself with theologians to balance his ideas. That is water under the bridge but it is ironic that some participants have objected to your bringing in those outside viewpoints. Anyway, Nigel Tomes is entitled to his opinion and I am sure he is a nice brother but he is no more informed about biblical truths than anyone in this forum. Sometimes he acts less informed.

Drake
Would you say that Brother Lee did not believe in the independent sinful self? (either independent of God, or satan). To me, Lee's teaching about every person being a "miniature Garden of Eden" suggests this - that there is no real escaping God or satan, they are always "in the Garden". This seems to be the focus of Dr Burrowes work, studying how beliefs changed from the early church period to the time of Augustine and beyond regarding the independent self. The matter of interpreting Paul's words in Romans regarding the flesh and sin, is part of that work.

I believe people are shocked regarding the teaching of satan in the flesh because we don't think of ourselves as being influenced by anyone or anything other than our selves. We think that our free will and free mind is "only us". This sort of independent thinking is particularly ingrained into us in the West. But to balance this teaching about satan in the flesh, is the teaching that God is in our spirit, and this balances things out. As Dr Burrowes implies, we retain free will, however we are not completely independent from the good and evil influences within us.

There's always a battle - a Christian is never in a place where he or she can let down their guard. A person is never in a place where "me and my sin" can rest a little while , while we choose whether we should serve God or the devil. All our thoughts must be checked as either from the devil or from God -" take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" 2 Cor 10:5.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:23 PM   #127
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ALB

Sure. I’ll even color it a little.

I believe Satan indwells our flesh in the virtual personified form of sin. The book of Romans makes it very clear that sin is and behaves like a person not a non sentient force like gravity. I do not believe that the archangel Lucifer indwells our flesh but do believe that he entered Judas and will do so again with AntiChrist. I also believe that we have inherited the sin nature from Adam’s fall and that nature is depicted as serpentine in the incident of the brass serpent. Unlike every other man, the Lord Jesus did not have the serpentine nature in dwelling His flesh, only the form as a man so He is the brass serpent. I believe Peter was expressing the mind of Satan to resist the way of the cross as part of the sin nature within him.

There is no difference between what I believe and what brother Lee taught.

Drake
Couple of questions:

1. Do you believe the use of "Satan" to refer to the person of Lucifer, or generically to an adversary of the Lord, or would you interpret it differently depending on the context?

2. Was Satan crucified on the cross? If so, how since he didn't indwell Jesus flesh?

3. Judas is a type of the false prophet, not the antichrist. Why is it that Satan enters Judas here, but the antichrist at the end of the age?

4. You have quoted numerous verses concerning the personification of sin, equating it with an evil indwelling presence (though apparently not Satan). What is the difference between that personified sin and "the sin nature"?

5. In Matthew 8 the demons could not enter into the swine without the Lord's permission. Can we also assume that Satan could not enter into Judas without the Lord's permission?

6. If you agree that Satan entered Judas with the Lord's permission, can you explain what a person would do that would result in the Lord permitting Satan to enter them?
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:30 PM   #128
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Sin is a thing.....

Brother, how can you justify altering Gods' word?!
ByHismercy,

You are kidding yourself if you think your interpretation is inerrant and mine is altering Gods Word. However, you are welcome to establish your beliefs using Gods Word in this discussion.

You say “sin is a thing”. Therefore, please explain how that “thing” took opportunity, deceived Paul, and slew him.

If your son or daughter came home and complained to you that s/he had been taken advantage of, tricked in some way, then deceived, and beat up would you say...

What did this terrible thing to you?”

Or

Who did this terrible thing to you?”

Of course, you would want to know who.

Drake
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:32 PM   #129
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1Cor 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:

However, this verse does not say that Satan could have stopped the plan of redemption, you may want to rethink that part.
I accept that. Yes, that is the verse I was trying to recall.

Thanks
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:54 PM   #130
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Would you say that Brother Lee did not believe in the independent sinful self? (either independent of God, or satan). To me, Lee's teaching about every person being a "miniature Garden of Eden" suggests this - that there is no real escaping God or satan, they are always "in the Garden". This seems to be the focus of Dr Burrowes work, studying how beliefs changed from the early church period to the time of Augustine and beyond regarding the independent self. The matter of interpreting Paul's words in Romans regarding the flesh and sin, is part of that work.

I believe people are shocked regarding the teaching of satan in the flesh because we don't think of ourselves as being influenced by anyone or anything other than our selves. We think that our free will and free mind is "only us". This sort of independent thinking is particularly ingrained into us in the West. But to balance this teaching about satan in the flesh, is the teaching that God is in our spirit, and this balances things out. As Dr Burrowes implies, we retain free will, however we are not completely independent from the good and evil influences within us.

There's always a battle - a Christian is never in a place where he or she can let down their guard. A person is never in a place where "me and my sin" can rest a little while , while we choose whether we should serve God or the devil. All our thoughts must be checked as either from the devil or from God -" take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" 2 Cor 10:5.
Right

A believer is especially complicated. God in our spirit. Satan as sin in our flesh and the continual battle is for the soul...... God desires to have every thought of ours captured by Christ, to love God with our whole heart, to choose God. That is, full salvation.

I believe this is what Brother Lee taught about that.

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:16 PM   #131
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Dr Tomes has a degree in economics. Maybe he is really great at economics. I don’t know. I do know that in this op-ed about what Brother Lee taught concerning Satan and sin he missed the boat badly. His methodology leads him to leave out important details... like ‘Satan as sin”.

I like that you bring in outside credible viewpoints like Dr. Burrows. Almost every forum participant has expressed indignation that Brother Lee did not surround himself with theologians to balance his ideas. That is water under the bridge but it is ironic that some participants have objected to your bringing in those outside viewpoints. Anyway, Nigel Tomes is entitled to his opinion and I am sure he is a nice brother but he is no more informed about biblical truths than anyone in this forum. Sometimes he acts less informed.

Drake
[Sorry. Off topic] Have to say I am really disappointed. Not long ago you said everyone here is having scriptural conversation. Then Evangelical and you started establishing/discounting credibility based on what PhD degree someone has.

Following your pattern of speech, can I say "WL has no degree in anything. Maybe he is really great at nothing" ?
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:27 PM   #132
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ByHismercy,

You are kidding yourself if you think your interpretation is inerrant and mine is altering Gods Word. However, you are welcome to establish your beliefs using Gods Word in this discussion.

You say “sin is a thing”. Therefore, please explain how that “thing” took opportunity, deceived Paul, and slew him.

If your son or daughter came home and complained to you that s/he had been taken advantage of, tricked in some way, then deceived, and beat up would you say...

What did this terrible thing to you?”

Or

Who did this terrible thing to you?”

Of course, you would want to know who.

Drake
[Off topic... again]This is a terrible analogy to say. Did you just want to prove "Satan" is in you?
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:39 PM   #133
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Following your pattern of speech, can I say "WL has no degree in anything. Maybe he is really great at nothing" ?
You would be late to that party.

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:47 PM   #134
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[Off topic... again]This is a terrible analogy to say. Did you just want to prove "Satan" is in you?
Huh? Don’t be ridiculous. Don’t know what you were thinking but I had a bully in mind.

I know it’s tough medicine.
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:50 PM   #135
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ByHismercy,

You are kidding yourself if you think your interpretation is inerrant and mine is altering Gods Word. However, you are welcome to establish your beliefs using Gods Word in this discussion.

You say “sin is a thing”. Therefore, please explain how that “thing” took opportunity, deceived Paul, and slew him.

If your son or daughter came home and complained to you that s/he had been taken advantage of, tricked in some way, then deceived, and beat up would you say...

What did this terrible thing to you?”

Or

Who did this terrible thing to you?”

Of course, you would want to know who.

Drake
Hi Drake,
Your question posed makes for a very logical proof to your stance. But, I will never be able to get past the fact that Gods word NEVER tells us "sin is Satan in virtual personification in our flesh."

Only Witness Lee. And Lees word is not higher than Gods divine revelation in His word, in fact, it is dung. You should flush it down.
In all sincerity,
byHismercy
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:04 PM   #136
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One thing comes to mind is....Jesus was faithful to cast out demons and Satan when he encountered poor souls afflicted by their possession. Many people still today are possessed, and if they choose to be set free, we ministers of Christ can cast them out in Jesus' name, by the power of the Holy Spirit and they can be set free.

Just ask this of your stance on this matter....would Jesus really come down and make His abode in us.....and merely tolerate Satans' presence throughout a human lifetime??

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever! I have faith that when a person believes into Jesus as the son of God, receives the Holy Spirit, and is born again....even if that person were afflicted with demonic or Satanic possession....before or after being regenerated....I believe Jesus would assuredly lead that person into an awareness of said unclean spirit....and lead them to help ridding themselves of it. Jesus never left a person alone, possessed, if they sought freedom!!!! Right? Anyone else agree with this thought?

His compassion for us is too great. He would not abide with Satan. This is the most disgusting aberration from Gods word. Please, brothers Drake, Evangelical....consider carefully...I am the least of the least of sisters.....but I HAVE the Spirit of God indwelling me.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:09 PM   #137
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Huh? Don’t be ridiculous. Don’t know what you were thinking but I had a bully in mind.

I know it’s tough medicine.
Its ok, I declare my chldren safe in Christ Jesus! And of course the word is able to divide marrow from bone...if you ask Him to divide the truth from the lie in you, He is able and willing!
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:22 PM   #138
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Its ok, I declare my chldren safe in Christ Jesus!
I believe you. And I also believe when it comes to those youngins you’re a mama bear!

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Old 04-26-2018, 07:36 PM   #139
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I believe you. And I also believe when it comes to those youngins you’re a mama bear!

Drake

Yep. I am a mere human...the Lord is faithful to restrain me...
I have a word for us, brothers...

Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
That's from Youngs Literal Translation.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:39 PM   #140
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P.S. every mama is a bear.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:49 PM   #141
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Hi Drake,
Your question posed makes for a very logical proof to your stance. But, I will never be able to get past the fact that Gods word NEVER tells us "sin is Satan in virtual personification in our flesh."

Only Witness Lee. And Lees word is not higher than Gods divine revelation in His word, in fact, it is dung. You should flush it down.
In all sincerity,
byHismercy
byHismercy

The Bible doesn’t explicitly say everything. For instance, it doesn’t explicitly use terms Trinity or Triune to express the Godhead. Nevertheless, the fact is there. We examine all the scripture and using our limited understanding we articulate what we see of the divine things in the language we understand and speak. Same with Brother Lee and Nee. Brother Lees word is not higher than the divine revelation in His word but to many of us he had a point of view that encompassed the divine revelation in His word with the broadest inclusiveness. However, even that is insufficient in and of itself. It is the vision revealed to me personally that captured me for His recovery. That vision was facilitated by the Lord through a ministry of life to the extent that even if Brother Lee would have departed from it I wouldn’t.

So, if it all the same to you, I’ll not count my experience of Christ through this ministry as dung. Rather, it has been my life changer in Christ for four decades that I could not deny nor will I “flush it down”.

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Old 04-26-2018, 07:54 PM   #142
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byHismercy

The Bible doesn’t explicitly say everything. For instance, it doesn’t explicitly use terms Trinity or Triune to express the Godhead. Nevertheless, the fact is there. We examine all the scripture and using our limited understanding we articulate what we see of the divine things in the language we understand and speak. Same with Brother Lee and Nee. Brother Lees word is not higher than the divine revelation in His word but to many of us he had a point of view that encompassed the divine revelation in His word with the broadest inclusiveness. However, even that is insufficient in and of itself. It is the vision revealed to me personally that captured me for His recovery. That vision was facilitated by the Lord through a ministry of life to the extent that even if Brother Lee would have departed from it I wouldn’t.

So, if it all the same to you, I’ll not count my experience of Christ through this ministry as dung. Rather, it has been my life changer in Christ for four decades that I could not deny nor will I flush it down.

Thanks
Drake
I respect that. I would never believe your experiences and revelations of Christ to be dung.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:00 PM   #143
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The Bible doesn’t explicitly say everything. For instance, it doesn’t explicitly use terms Trinity or Triune to express the Godhead. Nevertheless, the fact is there.

Just curious. Is there anyone here that rejects the Trinity doctrine? And is the LC as a whole primarily Trinitarian? Sorry to get off topic.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:41 PM   #144
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Just curious. Is there anyone here that rejects the Trinity doctrine? And is the LC as a whole primarily Trinitarian? Sorry to get off topic.
Jo S,

The local churches believe that God is the only one Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—co-existing equally from eternity to eternity (1 Tim. 2:5a, Matt. 28:19).


Full statement here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/our-beliefs/

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Old 04-26-2018, 08:50 PM   #145
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Hi Drake,
Your question posed makes for a very logical proof to your stance. But, I will never be able to get past the fact that Gods word NEVER tells us "sin is Satan in virtual personification in our flesh."

Only Witness Lee. And Lees word is not higher than Gods divine revelation in His word, in fact, it is dung. You should flush it down.
In all sincerity,
byHismercy
The Bible never says that Lucifer is Satan, either.

Question: "Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?"

Answer: There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan.


https://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:51 PM   #146
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Jo S,

The local churches believe that God is the only one Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—co-existing equally from eternity to eternity (1 Tim. 2:5a, Matt. 28:19).


Full statement here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/our-beliefs/

Drake
Ok, thank you for that. So it appears you are modalist rather than trinitarian, correct?
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:56 PM   #147
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[Sorry. Off topic] Have to say I am really disappointed. Not long ago you said everyone here is having scriptural conversation. Then Evangelical and you started establishing/discounting credibility based on what PhD degree someone has.

Following your pattern of speech, can I say "WL has no degree in anything. Maybe he is really great at nothing" ?

Then I wrote:

"An informed opinion is more worthy than an uninformed one."

To which Drake agreed. Witness Lee's opinion was obviously informed, as he wrote extensively on many subjects, even though he did not attend theological school, he was obviously informed through self-learning.

But I realize that folks on here don't appreciate quotes from academia, or perhaps don't know the difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed one. Informed opinions come about through learning and this is what academia is for.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:59 PM   #148
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One thing comes to mind is....Jesus was faithful to cast out demons and Satan when he encountered poor souls afflicted by their possession.
inHismercy,

Please explain how Satan dwells in some people as stated above.

Thanks
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:04 PM   #149
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Ok, thank you for that. So it appears you are modalist rather than trinitarian, correct?
How did you get that from the statement of belief?

“The local churches believe that God is the only one Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—co-existing equally from eternity to eternity (1 Tim. 2:5a, Matt. 28:19).

Please explain.

Drake
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:09 PM   #150
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How did you get that from the statement of belief?

Please explain.

Drake
Your statement of belief states that God (who is spirit) became a human being (Jesus) and then Jesus turned back into a spirit after resurrection. This sounds more modalistic rather than trinitarian or perhaps a hybrid of some kind. Haven't yet given it too much thought.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:13 PM   #151
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You believe God, who is spirit, became a human being (Jesus) and then Jesus turned back into a spirit after resurrection. This sounds more modalistic rather than trinitarian or perhaps a hybrid of some kind. Haven't yet given it too much thought.
Read it again.

The Father, Son, and Spirit co-existed from eternity to eternity.

That is the most orthodox Trinity point of view.

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Old 04-26-2018, 09:26 PM   #152
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You believe God, who is spirit, became a human being (Jesus) and then Jesus turned back into a spirit after resurrection. This sounds more modalistic rather than trinitarian or perhaps a hybrid of some kind. Haven't yet given it too much thought.

Modalism does not believe in eternal coexistence which is that all three persons exist at the same time, from eternity. That's the key difference and in fact the only real difference between modalism and Trinitarianism - modalism does not believe that Christ existed before he was born.

Trinitarians do believe that God became a man, Jesus Christ, just as modalists do, but the difference is the eternal coexistence.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:27 PM   #153
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Read it again.

The Father, Son, and Spirit co-existed from eternity to eternity.

That is the most orthodox Trinity point of view.

Drake

It is trinitarian except for this statement:

"The local churches believe that Jesus Christ, after being buried for three days, resurrected from the dead physically and spiritually and that, in resurrection, He has become the life-giving Spirit to impart Himself into us as our life and our everything"

So do you believe that, in Heaven, Jesus is a spirit? If so, then you are implying that Jesus lost all of his physical attributes and essentially changed modes after resurrection. I don't believe Orthodoxy teaches this point. It seems modalist in nature. That's why I say it seems like maybe a hybrid of both.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:55 PM   #154
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It is trinitarian except for this statement:

"The local churches believe that Jesus Christ, after being buried for three days, resurrected from the dead physically and spiritually and that, in resurrection, He has become the life-giving Spirit to impart Himself into us as our life and our everything"

So do you believe that, in Heaven, Jesus is a spirit? If so, then you are implying that Jesus lost all of his physical attributes and essentially changed modes after resurrection. I don't believe Orthodoxy teaches this point. It seems modalist in nature. That's why I say it seems like maybe a hybrid of both.
Jo,

Please review Evangelicals explanation of modalism to better understand what it is.

There is a man in the glory with a resurrected glorified body. The last Adam became a life giving spirit and it is the spirit of the resurrected and glorified Jesus who regenerates our spirit when we believe into Him.

That is not modalism or a hybrid.

Research these matters according to the scriptures and draw your own conclusions. You have to rightly divide the scriptures and see it for yourself under His shining.

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Old 04-26-2018, 10:05 PM   #155
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There is a man in the glory with a resurrected glorified body.

Ok so just to be clear, the LC believes that Jesus Christ is in a resurrected and glorified body right now in heaven?
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:12 PM   #156
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inHismercy,

Please explain how Satan dwells in some people as stated above.

Thanks
Drake
Drake, I know that Satan can possess an individual because we see Him enter Judas and the Lord cast him out of another, yes?

What I don't believe is his ability to indwell all persons in their flesh, because that gives him omniprescence. Only our God has that quality.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:30 PM   #157
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and the Lord cast him out of another, yes?
byHismercy, did Jesus cast Satan himself out of someone? Are you maybe referring to the women in the synogogue bound by Satan for 18 years? If so it reads as if Jesus freed her from the bonds of Satan, bonds being sin, but I don't take that she was possessed by Satan himself if that's the story you are referring to.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:41 PM   #158
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As for me, I do not buy this kind of teaching. That is pretty weird stuff. I would not even waste time arguing against it. It is simply that there is not a shred of Scripture to support this contention. Unconverted sinners are clearly voluntarily under Satan's sway, but that does not mean that Satan is Sin or that he indwells believers.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:11 AM   #159
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Ok so just to be clear, the LC believes that Jesus Christ is in a resurrected and glorified body right now in heaven?
Yes. Of course.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:22 AM   #160
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Drake, I know that Satan can possess an individual because we see Him enter Judas and the Lord cast him out of another, yes?

What I don't believe is his ability to indwell all persons in their flesh, because that gives him omniprescence. Only our God has that quality.
Right.

That’s ok. Wanted to understand what you believed. Just to close the loop many in this forum subscribe to Nigel Tomes’ viewpoint that Satan entering Judas was a rare if not one time event.

That matters neither here or there.

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Old 04-27-2018, 03:00 AM   #161
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Your statement of belief states that God (who is spirit) became a human being (Jesus) and then Jesus turned back into a spirit after resurrection. This sounds more modalistic rather than trinitarian or perhaps a hybrid of some kind. Haven't yet given it too much thought.
The fact that the 4th-century church split apart after having just these sorts of conversations shows me a danger here. We are unfortunately too smart by half.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God, right?

Do you see my point? Our logic can lead us into perilous waters.

What happens today is that we can know what Witness Lee or Calvin thought of such things, or what we think, or even what Augustine thought. But we don't know what Jesus thought, as we have no contemporary systematic breakdown of his thought-world. We can at best only approximate it. We do know that he believed he would go to Jerusalem, and be ill-treated, and killed, and on the third day rise (Mark 9:31).

And we know that we believe. We should not let our thought-worlds drive us apart. Lee was a master at this. "Divide and conquer" should have been the motto emblazoned at LSM. Pretty much all of his teachings were levers, designed to pry us apart. Just look at the fruit and you should recognize the tree.
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Old 04-27-2018, 01:58 PM   #162
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As for me, I do not buy this kind of teaching. That is pretty weird stuff. I would not even waste time arguing against it. It is simply that there is not a shred of Scripture to support this contention. Unconverted sinners are clearly voluntarily under Satan's sway, but that does not mean that Satan is Sin or that he indwells believers.
I agree. Creepy and unfounded doctrine of Lees' invention.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:08 PM   #163
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The fact that the 4th-century church split apart after having just these sorts of conversations shows me a danger here. We are unfortunately too smart by half.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God, right?

Do you see my point? Our logic can lead us into perilous waters.

What happens today is that we can know what Witness Lee or Calvin thought of such things, or what we think, or even what Augustine thought. But we don't know what Jesus thought, as we have no contemporary systematic breakdown of his thought-world. We can at best only approximate it. We do know that he believed he would go to Jerusalem, and be ill-treated, and killed, and on the third day rise (Mark 9:31).

And we know that we believe. We should not let our thought-worlds drive us apart. Lee was a master at this. "Divide and conquer" should have been the motto emblazoned at LSM. Pretty much all of his teachings were levers, designed to pry us apart. Just look at the fruit and you should recognize the tree.
Aron, this morning the Lord gave me Rom 16:17...Now I urge you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and turn away from them.

Of course I recognize the Lee doctrine to match the divisive and contrary doctrine here, warned against in Gods word. The LC practice of shunning those who do not receive Lees doctrine seem to be exposed here in Gods word. What do you think, brother?
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:35 PM   #164
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ALB

Sure. I’ll even color it a little.

I believe Satan indwells our flesh in the virtual personified form of sin. The book of Romans makes it very clear that sin is and behaves like a person not a non sentient force like gravity. I do not believe that the archangel Lucifer indwells our flesh but do believe that he entered Judas and will do so again with AntiChrist. I also believe that we have inherited the sin nature from Adam’s fall and that nature is depicted as serpentine in the incident of the brass serpent. Unlike every other man, the Lord Jesus did not have the serpentine nature in dwelling His flesh, only the form as a man so He is the brass serpent. I believe Peter was expressing the mind of Satan to resist the way of the cross as part of the sin nature within him.

There is no difference between what I believe and what brother Lee taught.

Drake
Drake, since you are clear about what WL taught can you answer these questions?

1. Do you believe the use of "Satan" to refer to the person of Lucifer, or generically to an adversary of the Lord, or would you interpret it differently depending on the context?

2. Was Satan crucified on the cross? If so, how since he didn't indwell Jesus flesh?

3. Judas is a type of the false prophet, not the antichrist. Why is it that Satan enters Judas here, but the antichrist at the end of the age?

4. You have quoted numerous verses concerning the personification of sin, equating it with an evil indwelling presence (though apparently not Satan). What is the difference between that personified sin and "the sin nature"?

5. In Matthew 8 the demons could not enter into the swine without the Lord's permission. Can we also assume that Satan could not enter into Judas without the Lord's permission?

6. If you agree that Satan entered Judas with the Lord's permission, can you explain what a person would do that would result in the Lord permitting Satan to enter them?
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:54 PM   #165
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You have become nothing more than a shill for LSM.

And these quotes in your post are just dishonest. What about the ones which both a little brother and I posted the other day. I'll provide some of Lee's quotes below since your memory appears to be shot:[INDENT][I][COLOR=purple][FONT=Verdana]"The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. [B]Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.



Sin itself, according to the Bible's revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him...One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you…Sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh…because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.”
Ohio, what do you think the Lord meant for us when you read Rom 16:17...Now I urge you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and turn away from them.

I see the LC here...I would like others counsel here...this is a serious word from the Lord...( not LC counsel, please)
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:56 PM   #166
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Drake, I know that Satan can possess an individual because we see Him enter Judas and the Lord cast him out of another, yes?

What I don't believe is his ability to indwell all persons in their flesh, because that gives him omniprescence. Only our God has that quality.
I think that multitudes of Christians claiming attacks from Satan around the world every day, gives him omnipresence. Even though you say he is not omnipresent, most Christians surely act as if he is. Where does Scripture say that Satan can attack multitudes of believers around the world every day?
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:04 PM   #167
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I think that multitudes of Christians claiming attacks from Satan around the world every day, gives him omnipresence. Where does Scripture say that Satan can attack multitudes of believers around the world every day?
Evangelical, earlier in this same thread same thread you said you believed if Witness Lee taught Satan indwelt us, he was wrong. You also declared to not believe Satan was omnipresent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Did you position reverse because you know you cannot dispute WL doctrine...and remain in good standing with the LC?

Follow Gods word and be set free, brother.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:21 PM   #168
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Drake, since you are clear about what WL taught can you answer these questions?

1. Do you believe the use of "Satan" to refer to the person of Lucifer, or generically to an adversary of the Lord, or would you interpret it differently depending on the context?

2. Was Satan crucified on the cross? If so, how since he didn't indwell Jesus flesh?

3. Judas is a type of the false prophet, not the antichrist. Why is it that Satan enters Judas here, but the antichrist at the end of the age?

4. You have quoted numerous verses concerning the personification of sin, equating it with an evil indwelling presence (though apparently not Satan). What is the difference between that personified sin and "the sin nature"?

5. In Matthew 8 the demons could not enter into the swine without the Lord's permission. Can we also assume that Satan could not enter into Judas without the Lord's permission?

6. If you agree that Satan entered Judas with the Lord's permission, can you explain what a person would do that would result in the Lord permitting Satan to enter them?
Hi ZNP,

I started but gave up on the barrage of questions. It’s easier for me to interact in conversation.

Pick the one or two most important to you and then you can roll the questions out as we go along.

Also, when applicable state your view so I understand the background of the question and don’t assume where you are coming from.

Thanks
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:22 PM   #169
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byHismercy, did Jesus cast Satan himself out of someone? Are you maybe referring to the women in the synogogue bound by Satan for 18 years? If so it reads as if Jesus freed her from the bonds of Satan, bonds being sin, but I don't take that she was possessed by Satan himself if that's the story you are referring to.
Hi JoS, I was referring to the account in Matt. 8...but I was mistaken. Jesus cast demons( plural), not Satan, out of the two fierce ones,and let the devils go into the herd of swine. The Lord also cast demons out of many who were brought to Him in Capernaum. Sorry
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:28 PM   #170
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Ohio, what do you think the Lord meant for us when you read Rom 16:17...Now I urge you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and turn away from them.

I see the LC here...I would like others counsel here...this is a serious word from the Lord...( not LC counsel, please)
Anyone can say that about anyone else they disagree with. It doesn’t rise to the level of a weak argument. It’s a fallacy in argument. To prove it applies you would need to argue on the substance. Have a go.

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Old 04-27-2018, 03:30 PM   #171
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Hi ZNP,

I started but gave up on the barrage of questions. It’s easier for me to interact in conversation.

Pick the one or two most important to you and then you can roll the questions out as we go along.

Thanks
Drake
Why did the Lord permit Satan to enter Judas?
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:35 PM   #172
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Why did the Lord permit Satan to enter Judas?
To instigate the series of practical events that led to the Lords accomplishing salvation on the cross.

Why do you ask?

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Old 04-27-2018, 04:06 PM   #173
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I meant to post this earlier on the topic of sin and Satan but forgot I had left it open in my browser.

I remember someone asked for a biblical definition of sin. Here it is in 1 John 3:4;

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."


We can see John labels sin more in the sense of it being a law because it's something that can be "practiced". Any lawyers out there should understand this.

What then is a law? A law is a set of principles.

Satan is lawless (2 Thess 2:9) but he is not lawlessness itself just as a police officer isn't the law itself but one who enforces the law.

In otherwords, Satan is a principality and not a set of principles. So to say Satan is sin, whether in or outside of a person, is error.

I've got to say, from an outsider's perspective, Lee's teachings have strong gnostic qualities to them.
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:28 PM   #174
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And to add to this discussion...

Rom 14:23...for whatever does not proceed from FAITH is sin.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him as righteousness.

From these verses, I see that sin is absence of faith.
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:41 PM   #175
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Anyone can say that about anyone else they disagree with. It doesn’t rise to the level of a weak argument. It’s a fallacy in argument. To prove it applies you would need to argue on the substance. Have a go.

Drake
Ok, I'll try.

Rom.16:17
Now I urge you brethren ( the Lord is addressing His followers)

Mark those who cause divisions (the Local Church divides over our willingness to receive Lees erroneous teaching, or not, or ones ability to be sold out for Lees error)

And hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned( contradictions to Gods word abounds in Lee doctrine, and LC practice of shunning christians outside the bounds of scripturally supported divisions)

And turn away from them. (I do.)
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:07 PM   #176
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To instigate the series of practical events that led to the Lords accomplishing salvation on the cross.

Why do you ask?

Drake
It seems unrighteous, are you sure you don't want to rethink that? If the Lord is the one who instigated the crucifixion then it doesn't expose man having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, it exposes man is simply a puppet of the Lord.

Second, you haven't answered the other part of that. We have a promise that no one can take us out of the Lord's hand. So then, what was it that Judas did that in turn caused the Lord to allow Satan to enter into him?

Surely WL has answered this.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:14 PM   #177
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It seems unrighteous, are you sure you don't want to rethink that? If the Lord is the one who instigated the crucifixion then it doesn't expose man having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, it exposes man is simply a puppet of the Lord.

Second, you haven't answered the other part of that. We have a promise that no one can take us out of the Lord's hand. So then, what was it that Judas did that in turn caused the Lord to allow Satan to enter into him?

Surely WL has answered this.
Well, please explain. I’m all ears.

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Old 04-27-2018, 07:14 PM   #178
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Well, please explain. I’m all ears.

Drake
All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:21 PM   #179
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Ohio, what do you think the Lord meant for us when you read Rom 16:17...Now I urge you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and turn away from them.

I see the LC here...I would like others counsel here...this is a serious word from the Lord...( not LC counsel, please)
Let's look at this verse in pieces:
  • Now I urge you, brethren: This no doubt is a timeless exhortation from Paul for all responsible brothers in all congregations
  • Mark those: This is not the best translation here. Others say "take note, watch, consider, keep an eye on." LSM as a book publisher has used this verse to publicly excommunicate certain ministers, but I consider this the work of overseers/elders in each congregation, rather than some ruling body. LSM's extreme measures of publicly "marking" others often return to Levitical practices rather than God's love. Had their "victims" not been more spiritual and godly men, they would have filed civil lawsuits for libel and slander against LSM.
  • Cause divisions: LSM's record of making divisions is unparalleled, except for perhaps the Exclusive Brethren after whom they model themselves. None of these quarantined brothers ever made a division, rather they were only faithful to the Lord and His word to speak out against abuses from LSM.
  • Cause hindrances: Or "occasions of stumbling." Just consider how many have been stumbled by LSM during every storm in their history? Read the Intro section on this forum.
  • Contrary to the apostles' teachings: The Midwest quarantines had nothing to do with the Bible, which is the Apostles' teaching. LSM quarantined them for teaching differently than Witness Lee. Imagine that! LSM condemned them for using contemporary Christian music in their young people's worship services. For shame!
  • Turn away from them: This forum helps those who desire to depart from them.
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:24 PM   #180
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All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.
And a hearty Amen to that!
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:34 PM   #181
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All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.
LofT,

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual topic?

Or is your contribution merely personal insults? If you are going to insult at least add something substantive to the topic! If you understand ZNPs point then contribute by clarifying it.

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Old 04-27-2018, 07:40 PM   #182
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The fact that the 4th-century church split apart after having just these sorts of conversations shows me a danger here. We are unfortunately too smart by half.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God, right?

Do you see my point? Our logic can lead us into perilous waters.

What happens today is that we can know what Witness Lee or Calvin thought of such things, or what we think, or even what Augustine thought. But we don't know what Jesus thought, as we have no contemporary systematic breakdown of his thought-world. We can at best only approximate it. We do know that he believed he would go to Jerusalem, and be ill-treated, and killed, and on the third day rise (Mark 9:31).

And we know that we believe. We should not let our thought-worlds drive us apart. Lee was a master at this. "Divide and conquer" should have been the motto emblazoned at LSM. Pretty much all of his teachings were levers, designed to pry us apart. Just look at the fruit and you should recognize the tree.

Aron, you can surely know the thoughts of Christ. Those that are born of him are given his mind (1 Cor 2:16).

I highly doubt critical thought was ever the dividing factor between groups of professing Christians. Quite the opposite it seems concerning the LC, atleast from what I understand with my limited experience. I say that because I've read Lee had taught that thinking was bad and to just be in the spirit. Well, in my view, if you don't exercise your own logical faculties someone else will supply the logic for you. And if you've received the wrong spirit, it really doesn't help you to be "in the spirit" anyway at that point.

I don't understand why division is viewed only in a bad light in today's society. It reminds me of a saying by Adrian Rogers;

“It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and then heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills.”

I can understand that those of you that have escaped the control of the LC are hesitant toward any type of debating that can potentially end up causing division. You've all been through a traumatic experience so I can understand wanting to stay away from anything that can rehash old wounds. I saw this very same fear within my friends that are still in the LC.

What I can say is, avoiding discussion and debate is not the way. We are to test all things within ourselves and other's that we choose to fellowship with. As a matter of fact Christ applauded the church in Ephesius on exposing false converts;

"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false" (Rev. 2)

IMHO, the most important doctrine to have a firm grasp on is the nature of the Lord God and of his Christ because there are many different gospels being preached and many different Christs being taught as well. Paul says that those that accept a false gospel or a false Christ receive a different spirit. (2 Cor 11:4). That's why it's so important to test all things to make sure we are firmly in the faith.
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:25 PM   #183
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Ok, I'll try.

Rom.16:17
Now I urge you brethren ( the Lord is addressing His followers)

Mark those who cause divisions (the Local Church divides over our willingness to receive Lees erroneous teaching, or not, or ones ability to be sold out for Lees error)

And hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned( contradictions to Gods word abounds in Lee doctrine, and LC practice of shunning christians outside the bounds of scripturally supported divisions)

And turn away from them. (I do.)
InHismercy,

You have an opinion that you mistakenly believe is supported by scripture.

Anyone can do that. Allow me to illustrate by following your example.
———————-
Rom.16:17
Now I urge you brethren ( the Lord is addressing His followers)

Mark those who cause divisions (inHismercy divides over our experience of Christ facilitated through a ministry of life and she calls for those who have grown closer to the Lord thereby to treat that ministry as dung)

And hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned( contradictions to Gods word abound in InHismercy’s doctrine, claiming erroneously that the Lord cast Satan out of people while denying in the same breath the clear teaching of Paul concerning the Satanic nature of sin in the flesh. Furthermore, she enthusiastically engages in ridiculing christians who embrace the scriptural call for all Christians to be one with each other, and instead she promotes unholy divisions among Christians by demanding they take their experience of Christ and “flush it down” inappropriately invoking the image of a toilet whereby the contents are the precious experiences of Christ)

And turn away from them. (And for those reasons I do and so should any genuine believer who desires purity of thought concerning the things of our Lord)

——————-

That is an opinion based on things you said but the points haven’t been presented as a compelling argument. That is what I mean by anyone can do that.

Thanks
Drake
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:40 PM   #184
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Evangelical, earlier in this same thread same thread you said you believed if Witness Lee taught Satan indwelt us, he was wrong. You also declared to not believe Satan was omnipresent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Did you position reverse because you know you cannot dispute WL doctrine...and remain in good standing with the LC?

Follow Gods word and be set free, brother.
You are correct regarding my position. I don't believe Satan is omnipresent. However I was pointing out that in the minds of many Christians, it is as if he is omnipresent. I don't really see the difference between Lee's view of Satan (as sin) indwelling the flesh and that held by the majority of Christians that Satan is around every corner or attacking them every day. Both views could be considered as giving Satan a kind of omnipresence. If we address Lee's doctrine shouldn't we also teach Christians that Satan cannot possibly attack all of them who claim to be attacked by Satan?
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:46 PM   #185
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I meant to post this earlier on the topic of sin and Satan but forgot I had left it open in my browser.

I remember someone asked for a biblical definition of sin. Here it is in 1 John 3:4;

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."


We can see John labels sin more in the sense of it being a law because it's something that can be "practiced". Any lawyers out there should understand this.

What then is a law? A law is a set of principles.

Satan is lawless (2 Thess 2:9) but he is not lawlessness itself just as a police officer isn't the law itself but one who enforces the law.

In otherwords, Satan is a principality and not a set of principles. So to say Satan is sin, whether in or outside of a person, is error.

I've got to say, from an outsider's perspective, Lee's teachings have strong gnostic qualities to them.
A problem for this view is that it treats sin as something which exists independently of a person. Can you show us sin without a person? I would say that sin is lawlessness because lawlessness comes from Satan who is lawless. We could shorten this to say "lawlessness is Satan".
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:18 PM   #186
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Can you show us sin without a person?
I can show you darkness apart from a person.

Genesis 1:3

"God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness"

Notice God does not call darkness "good", but only light.

"For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

Darkness was there before Lucifer partook of it.

Darkness is lawlessness.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:50 PM   #187
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InHismercy,

You have an opinion that you mistakenly believe is supported by scripture.

Anyone can do that. Allow me to illustrate by following your example.
———————-
Rom.16:17
Now I urge you brethren ( the Lord is addressing His followers)

Mark those who cause divisions (inHismercy divides over our experience of Christ facilitated through a ministry of life and she calls for those who have grown closer to the Lord thereby to treat that ministry as dung)

And hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned( contradictions to Gods word abound in InHismercy’s doctrine, claiming erroneously that the Lord cast Satan out of people while denying in the same breath the clear teaching of Paul concerning the Satanic nature of sin in the flesh. Furthermore, she enthusiastically engages in ridiculing christians who embrace the scriptural call for all Christians to be one with each other, and instead she promotes unholy divisions among Christians by demanding they take their experience of Christ and “flush it down” inappropriately invoking the image of a toilet whereby the contents are the precious experiences of Christ)

And turn away from them. (And for those reasons I do and so should any genuine believer who desires purity of thought concerning the things of our Lord)

——————-

That is an opinion based on things you said but the points haven’t been presented as a compelling argument. That is what I mean by anyone can do that.

Thanks
Drake
Drake, you are lying on me...quite one with Satan there, are you? I NEVER said what you accuse me of....such visciousness is so rare in a regenerated believer...you are putting lying false words in my mouth to prove a point about my argument being invalid? Just so we are clear....you just made these things up as an example of error....not to wound me, right?

You are a liar, and you did change my mind about your personal allegiance to Satan. So you win. Happy now? I am convinced Satan is your father. Consider yourself marked.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:11 PM   #188
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Also, I just want to say here, that the Bible is the living and operative word of God in those of us who believe! Th Holy Spirit is witnessed by my spirit, and I am equipped to take Gods word in and be taught, corrected, instructed in righteous...Gods word is sufficient for us because Jesus is the Living word of God....

The LC is clouds wit