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Old 02-06-2017, 11:23 AM   #1
Koinonia
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Default DCP - 2016 in Review

January 31, 2017

Re: 2016 in Review

Dear Brothers,

2016 was a busy year at DCP. As we rely upon the fellowship and prayer of the churches and the saints, we want to share with you some of the progress made last year. One practical matter was our move into new offices at 1853 W. Ball Road, Suite 103, Anaheim, CA. 92804.

In 2016 DCP gave presentations at the Full-Time Training, Anaheim; at a gathering of Mountain States brothers in Albuquerque; and at a European Brothers Training in Baarlo. Topics included crucial truths that are under attack, how to inoculate new ones and to provide an antidote to those damaged by false reports and attacks on the truth, the history of opposition and rebellion, and the progress and importance of developing positive contacts with fellow believers.

Writing Projects
DCP produced a paper on the Triune God that was presented at the 2016 joint meeting of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Evangelical Theological Society. Five brothers attended, were positively received, and met a number of open scholars who were aware of Witness Lee’s ministry or Affirmation and Critique.

We continued work on a four-volume series on the history of the warfare surrounding and including the litigations over The Mindbenders, The God-Men, and the Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions. The draft and internal review of Books 1 and 2 are complete, and we have started our in-house review of the completed drafts of Books 3 and 4. Our burden in these books is to put to rest many false reports and to help equip the next generation in the Lord’s recovery how to face the enemy’s attacks.

DCP wrote a chapter for a book by Massimo Introvigne, Ph.D., on the Exclusive Brethren. The chapter corrects inaccurate historical accounts of the interactions between Watchman Nee and the Taylorite Brethren and explains Watchman Nee’s stand for the oneness of the Body. DCP provided information, including an explanation that we are not a denomination, to Roger Olson, theology professor at Truett Seminary, for his forthcoming edition of Handbook of Denominations in the United States. DCP also produced a draft entry for Georg Schmid’s updated Encyclopedia of Christian Churches, a widely used resource in the German-speaking world.

China-related
DCP provided research and logistical support to researchers for a book on Eastern Lightning (EL), also known as the Church of Almighty God, which will strongly differentiate it from the local churches, countering the trend among some academics. Support included visits to China, Korea, and Australia for meetings with relevant persons including EL members. DCP is preparing material in English and Chinese to inoculate the saints against EL’s heresies (a female (anti)Christ, denying the Bible, etc.) and deceptive tactics used to recruit from among attendees in local church meetings.

We continued contacts with various Chinese agencies and officials concerning cult issues and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Just two years ago we were listed third on the list of xiejiao (commonly translated as “evil cult” in the West) by the China Anti-Cult Association (CACA). Last April, CACA published a new list of xiejiao and for the first time in many years, “the Shouters sect,” which it earlier identified with Witness Lee and the local churches, was not on the list.

A brother presented papers on Watchman Nee’s use of examples from a Chinese context to teach truths at a U.S. conference on Sinicization of Christianity and on the influence of Western missionary work on Watchman Nee’s family at Shanghai University.

Among the Churches Globally
DCP is working with co-workers in Europe to develop inoculation material in German. This includes three websites—witnessleelehren.org, die-wahrheit-des-evangeliums.org (already launched), and die- ortsgemeinden.de. All three should be live by the end of February 2017. The “We Were Wrong” edition of the Christian Research Journal has been translated into German, published in Germany, and posted on the CRI website. Some DCP-related publications are being translated and corrections are being made to inaccurate German-language Internet articles. DCP began a research project to resolve persistent misinformation left over from the late-1980s European turmoil. DCP has also:
  • Supported the brothers in India as they face opposition online and from a new publication,
  • Consulted with brothers in Puerto Rico concerning an ex-member’s competing work,
  • Provided assistance so that Cuban leading ones may get U.S. visas to attend the seven feasts,
  • Responded to a dissenting one’s article in the Netherlands (also posted online), and
  • Assisted the church in Chicago with material to inoculate against a competing ministry.

Aggressive Contacts
We have continued the long-term project of discovering scholars and other respected Christians who may be potential friends of the Lord’s recovery. This requires research, travel, and much fellowship. One new area of this labor is contact and visitation with key persons in the German-speaking world.

Internet & In-Office Projects
DCP now operates ltm.org and has renamed it localchurchesfaq.org; this site has been redesigned for mobile use. Redesign of contendingforthefaith.org is nearly complete and an-open-letter.org is under redesign to improve user experience and mobile compatibility. We also continue to monitor and respond to matters on the web.

We cherish the fellowship and prayers of the churches and share the above matters with you in mutuality for the Lord’s interest.

In Christ,

Abraham Ho and Dan Sady on behalf of DCP
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:18 PM   #2
Terry
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
  • Consulted with brothers in Puerto Rico concerning an ex-member’s competing work,
  • Assisted the church in Chicago with material to inoculate against a competing ministry.
Goodness grief!
Does it always have to be a competition?

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
Mark 9:38-41

In principle same applies now as it was in the gospels.
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Goodness grief!
Does it always have to be a competition?

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
Mark 9:38-41

In principle same applies now as it was in the gospels.
When DCP says they "consulted with local brothers," they really means they helped the local brothers to file lawsuits, spread rumors, back-bite their supposed rivals, and put other ministries out of business.

These are coded words only the insiders understand.
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

When I read about the DCP's endeavors to interact with Christians outside, it seems that the goal has become to find others who might be friendly to their efforts. In other words, it seems they realize that they can't truly defend Lee’s teachings, and don’t want to engage in actual dialogue with the critics, but they do want to find people (like Hank/CRI) who might be more likely to accept their narrative of the LC. Ironically though, acceptance goes both ways. If they want the Christian public to accept the LC, then the LC also has to show acceptance of other Christian groups and ministries. We all know that will never happen. Even among those who are more supportive of the LC, I don’t think it’s lost on them that they LC is a very proprietary organization. So it seems clear that whatever the DCP is trying to accomplish involves mostly trying to get people to uncritically swallow their narrative of the LC.

I’m appalled at some of the deceptiveness of what they're doing. The best example of this is what they say about trying to dispel any notion of a linkage to the EL. But then they go on to speak of the need to 'inoculate' LC members (Shouters) in China against the heresies of the EL? Really!?!? LC members need to be warned of EL heresies? I thought there was no linkage. I thought that LC members have been 'constituted' with the truth. I guess not. The real story is likely that the Shouters are viewed as primary recruitment material for the EL, since the EL founder is a former Shouter from the Lord Changshou sect. The fact that the DCP has concerned itself with such things, supposedly irrelevant to the LC, serves as proof that there's a lot more going on than meets the eye.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
When I read about the DCP's endeavors to interact with Christians outside, it seems that the goal has become to find others who might be friendly to their efforts. In other words, it seems they realize that they can't truly defend Lee’s teachings, and don’t want to engage in actual dialogue with the critics, but they do want to find people (like Hank/CRI) who might be more likely to accept their narrative of the LC.
The LSM/DCP usage of the word friends is a coded word of neutrality. It implies there could be a relationship that could be beneficial, but by no means does it imply being on equal footing.
A few years back some brothers from the Church in Seattle had visited some brothers from the Church in Moses Lake. The consensus of the meeting by the Seattle brothers was, "they're our friends".
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Old 02-07-2017, 03:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Terry View Post
The LSM/DCP usage of the word friends is a coded word of neutrality. It implies there could be a relationship that could be beneficial, but by no means does it imply being on equal footing.
A few years back some brothers from the Church in Seattle had visited some brothers from the Church in Moses Lake. The consensus of the meeting by the Seattle brothers was, "they're our friends".
The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. Presumably, an organization that is supposed to be defending the teachings of WL wouldn't need that much interaction with members who are supposed to already be sold on the teachings they follow. So once you delve into things a little bit deeper it becomes apparent that so much material is nothing more than propaganda. All the talk of 'inoculation' or addressing "competing ministries" have nothing to do with defending WL's teachings. An objective person doesn't need to be 'inoculated' from anything. As has been mentioned, that kind of talk is coded language.

What it really seems is at the heart of the issue is member retention. When you look how easily LC members can develop concerns or 'disappear', it makes sense why they want to reverse that. But as we know, they are unable to address the underlying factors related to that. Thus, their only strategy has been to limit the information available and hope that it works. The strategy does work on some people, I think that it worked on me for a while, at least in the sense that I had no desire to consider anything 'negative' that had been written about the LC. Eventually what changed my mind was not being conceived of anything, it was having certain experiences that were too troubling to ignore. People’s own experiences are what really serves as a direct contradiction to all the propaganda that comes out of the DCP. That’s why I don't worry too much about what the DCP is up to. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. Presumably, an organization that is supposed to be defending the teachings of WL wouldn't need that much interaction with members who are supposed to already be sold on the teachings they follow. So once you delve into things a little bit deeper it becomes apparent that so much material is nothing more than propaganda. All the talk of 'inoculation' or addressing "competing ministries" have nothing to do with defending WL's teachings. An objective person doesn't need to be 'inoculated' from anything. As has been mentioned, that kind of talk is coded language.

What it really seems is at the heart of the issue is member retention. When you look how easily LC members can develop concerns or 'disappear', it makes sense why they want to reverse that. But as we know, they are unable to address the underlying factors related to that. Thus, their only strategy has been to limit the information available and hope that it works. The strategy does work on some people, I think that it worked on me for a while, at least in the sense that I had no desire to consider anything 'negative' that had been written about the LC. Eventually what changed my mind was not being conceived of anything, it was having certain experiences that were too troubling to ignore. People’s own experiences are what really serves as a direct contradiction to all the propaganda that comes out of the DCP. That’s why I don't worry too much about what the DCP is up to. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.
For years I shook my head in awe that consecrated members of the LC's could so easily be "poisoned." Is their faith that vulnerable? Was their character that unstable? What could possibly cause these ones to flip-flop almost overnight?

Eventually I learned for myself why and how so many saints got "poisoned" so quickly. It was simple. As long as Lee and LSM kept Pandora's Box under lock and key, all was well. That's because Lee and LSM have a public and private persona. The private side has all sorts of rotten things hidden away, that they want no one to see, least of which are their loyal members. As long as the box stayed locked, even if the stench within leaked out, they could always blame it on "persecution" by those evil "denominations." For years this was pretty effective.

But once the box was cracked open, and the light could shine within, the door was open to all the lies and corruptions within. Before Al Gore invented the internet, this job was a whole lot easier for them, but now the job of keeping the door shut is well nigh impossible. Even a seasoned legal defense team can't keep the door shut.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
  • Supported the brothers in India as they face opposition online and from a new publication,
  • Consulted with brothers in Puerto Rico concerning an ex-member’s competing work,
  • Provided assistance so that Cuban leading ones may get U.S. visas to attend the seven feasts,
  • Responded to a dissenting one’s article in the Netherlands (also posted online), and
  • Assisted the church in Chicago with material to inoculate against a competing ministry.
Why should there be concern what other ministries are doing? Unless the issue is revenue.
After all regardless of ministries, all are after the Lord's work.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord
1 Corinthians 12:4-5
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
For years I shook my head in awe that consecrated members of the LC's could so easily be "poisoned." Is their faith that vulnerable? Was their character that unstable? What could possibly cause these ones to flip-flop almost overnight?

Eventually I learned for myself why and how so many saints got "poisoned" so quickly. It was simple. As long as Lee and LSM kept Pandora's Box under lock and key, all was well. That's because Lee and LSM have a public and private persona. The private side has all sorts of rotten things hidden away, that they want no one to see, least of which are their loyal members. As long as the box stayed locked, even if the stench within leaked out, they could always blame it on "persecution" by those evil "denominations." For years this was pretty effective.

But once the box was cracked open, and the light could shine within, the door was open to all the lies and corruptions within. Before Al Gore invented the internet, this job was a whole lot easier for them, but now the job of keeping the door shut is well nigh impossible. Even a seasoned legal defense team can't keep the door shut.
Part of what it seems the DCP is good at doing to LC members is building up fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of critical material on the internet, fear of discussing LC teachings, etc. They never qualify this fear or detail the issues, they just offer up vague warnings, or when addressing specific material, they will throw out terms like 'slanderous' to describe it.

Speaking for myself here, when I initially began to have serious concerns about the LC, there were several things that were bothering me. One was a strong trend of legalism that I had noticed (sometimes manifesting itself in ways of control and manipulation). I was also tired of everyone deferring to what Lee taught, and even just the general obsession with Lee.

Notice how such concerns coincide what LC members have been told are "groundless accusations" against the LC, that is, the talk of Lee being uplifted or esteemed too highly, or the possibility that there is any type of controlling of LC members. So that presents a quandary. When LC members become concerned with the LC, if often involves issues that have been vehemently denied on the part of LC leadership. But once someone has an actual experience of what has been denied to even take place, all the sudden their world is turned upside-down.

When people know about the litigious reputation of the LC, it is no wonder they are afraid to speak up and would rather go on in a less-than-ideal situation.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:04 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. Presumably, an organization that is supposed to be defending the teachings of WL wouldn't need that much interaction with members who are supposed to already be sold on the teachings they follow.
When the rubber meets the road and the most evil speaker on the internet was in town and willing to have a face to face conversation with DCP's Dan Sady, he was conveniently unavailable. Perhaps there was no interest in defending the indefensible because interest had shifted to member retention.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
January 31, 2017

Re: 2016 in Review

Dear Brothers,

2016 was a busy year at DCP. As we rely upon the fellowship and prayer of the churches and the saints, we want to share with you some of the progress made last year. One practical matter was our move into new offices at 1853 W. Ball Road, Suite 103, Anaheim, CA. 92804.

In 2016 DCP gave presentations at the Full-Time Training, Anaheim; at a gathering of Mountain States brothers in Albuquerque; and at a European Brothers Training in Baarlo. Topics included crucial truths that are under attack, how to inoculate new ones and to provide an antidote to those damaged by false reports and attacks on the truth, the history of opposition and rebellion, and the progress and importance of developing positive contacts with fellow believers.

Writing Projects
DCP produced a paper on the Triune God that was presented at the 2016 joint meeting of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Evangelical Theological Society. Five brothers attended, were positively received, and met a number of open scholars who were aware of Witness Lee’s ministry or Affirmation and Critique.

We continued work on a four-volume series on the history of the warfare surrounding and including the litigations over The Mindbenders, The God-Men, and the Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions. The draft and internal review of Books 1 and 2 are complete, and we have started our in-house review of the completed drafts of Books 3 and 4. Our burden in these books is to put to rest many false reports and to help equip the next generation in the Lord’s recovery how to face the enemy’s attacks.

DCP wrote a chapter for a book by Massimo Introvigne, Ph.D., on the Exclusive Brethren. The chapter corrects inaccurate historical accounts of the interactions between Watchman Nee and the Taylorite Brethren and explains Watchman Nee’s stand for the oneness of the Body. DCP provided information, including an explanation that we are not a denomination, to Roger Olson, theology professor at Truett Seminary, for his forthcoming edition of Handbook of Denominations in the United States. DCP also produced a draft entry for Georg Schmid’s updated Encyclopedia of Christian Churches, a widely used resource in the German-speaking world.

China-related
DCP provided research and logistical support to researchers for a book on Eastern Lightning (EL), also known as the Church of Almighty God, which will strongly differentiate it from the local churches, countering the trend among some academics. Support included visits to China, Korea, and Australia for meetings with relevant persons including EL members. DCP is preparing material in English and Chinese to inoculate the saints against EL’s heresies (a female (anti)Christ, denying the Bible, etc.) and deceptive tactics used to recruit from among attendees in local church meetings.

We continued contacts with various Chinese agencies and officials concerning cult issues and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Just two years ago we were listed third on the list of xiejiao (commonly translated as “evil cult” in the West) by the China Anti-Cult Association (CACA). Last April, CACA published a new list of xiejiao and for the first time in many years, “the Shouters sect,” which it earlier identified with Witness Lee and the local churches, was not on the list.

A brother presented papers on Watchman Nee’s use of examples from a Chinese context to teach truths at a U.S. conference on Sinicization of Christianity and on the influence of Western missionary work on Watchman Nee’s family at Shanghai University.

Among the Churches Globally
DCP is working with co-workers in Europe to develop inoculation material in German. This includes three websites—witnessleelehren.org, die-wahrheit-des-evangeliums.org (already launched), and die- ortsgemeinden.de. All three should be live by the end of February 2017. The “We Were Wrong” edition of the Christian Research Journal has been translated into German, published in Germany, and posted on the CRI website. Some DCP-related publications are being translated and corrections are being made to inaccurate German-language Internet articles. DCP began a research project to resolve persistent misinformation left over from the late-1980s European turmoil. DCP has also:
  • Supported the brothers in India as they face opposition online and from a new publication,
  • Consulted with brothers in Puerto Rico concerning an ex-member’s competing work,
  • Provided assistance so that Cuban leading ones may get U.S. visas to attend the seven feasts,
  • Responded to a dissenting one’s article in the Netherlands (also posted online), and
  • Assisted the church in Chicago with material to inoculate against a competing ministry.

Aggressive Contacts
We have continued the long-term project of discovering scholars and other respected Christians who may be potential friends of the Lord’s recovery. This requires research, travel, and much fellowship. One new area of this labor is contact and visitation with key persons in the German-speaking world.

Internet & In-Office Projects
DCP now operates ltm.org and has renamed it localchurchesfaq.org; this site has been redesigned for mobile use. Redesign of contendingforthefaith.org is nearly complete and an-open-letter.org is under redesign to improve user experience and mobile compatibility. We also continue to monitor and respond to matters on the web.

We cherish the fellowship and prayers of the churches and share the above matters with you in mutuality for the Lord’s interest.

In Christ,

Abraham Ho and Dan Sady on behalf of DCP

Can anyone who grew up in another (non-LC) church chime in at all about if this kind of thing is normal for other churches? Like do your typical other churches out there deal with inoculations and antidotes and rebellions and storms and anti-cult work and equipping their members for the next round of attacks and oppositions and obsessions with "competing ministries" and dissenters and looking for "potential friends" etc etc etc now my head is spinning and I can't possibly believe that other churches remotely spend any time on this kind of thing?

I mean, how much easier would it be to lighten up on the off-kilter Lee stuff and have their own mini "we were wrong" moment, and just then be freed to go on possibly actually be obsessed with the actual gospel rather than defending every statement of a guy who made many erroneous statements!

I mean, I heard all growing up that as a Christian you are expected to encounter opposition, but I just can't accept that this is the type of opposition a normal Christian is supposed to expect. What kind of opposition do other (non-LC) Christians encounter?
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:23 AM   #12
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Can anyone who grew up in another (non-LC) church chime in at all about if this kind of thing is normal for other churches? Like do your typical other churches out there deal with inoculations and antidotes and rebellions and storms and anti-cult work and equipping their members for the next round of attacks and oppositions and obsessions with "competing ministries" and dissenters and looking for "potential friends" etc etc etc now my head is spinning and I can't possibly believe that other churches remotely spend any time on this kind of thing?

I mean, how much easier would it be to lighten up on the off-kilter Lee stuff and have their own mini "we were wrong" moment, and just then be freed to go on possibly actually be obsessed with the actual gospel rather than defending every statement of a guy who made many erroneous statements!

I mean, I heard all growing up that as a Christian you are expected to encounter opposition, but I just can't accept that this is the type of opposition a normal Christian is supposed to expect. What kind of opposition do other (non-LC) Christians encounter?
Reminds me of Scientology. Where they peddle sci-fi, the LSM is peddling Gods' word. I wonder which is more offensive to the Lord.
~~~Disclaimer...I did not grow up in Scientology....
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:10 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. . . .Eventually what changed my mind was not being conceived of anything, it was having certain experiences that were too troubling to ignore. People’s own experiences are what really serves as a direct contradiction to all the propaganda that comes out of the DCP. That’s why I don't worry too much about what the DCP is up to. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.
Agreed. The only clientele for this work is those who's conscience/curiosity is bothered enough to look, but not enough to look very far.

Thus, they're satisfied with the superficial 'authorized version' of events. I think this demographic is small, and shrinking.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:18 AM   #14
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The fact that the DCP has concerned itself with such things, supposedly irrelevant to the LC, serves as proof that there's a lot more going on than meets the eye.
The fact that Adam & Eve are trying to cover themselves indicates an underlying issue.

They don't want you to notice that these fig leaves suddenly fell from the sky and stuck to their bodies; to think about it too much, and wonder how all this came to be.

I read a report on cults in China, and something like eight of the twelve covered in the paper traced themselves back to the LC.

But of course, that's just a coincidence. There's no connection whatsoever.

Homegrown theology, self-obsessed subjectivism, contempt for the established church, secrecy, paranoia, control issues, personal revelations of one's own self-exalted status, deceptive recruiting. . . nah, there's no connection. Just coincidence is all. Coincidence and misunderstanding.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:19 PM   #15
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Can anyone who grew up in another (non-LC) church chime in at all about if this kind of thing is normal for other churches? Like do your typical other churches out there deal with inoculations and antidotes and rebellions and storms and anti-cult work and equipping their members for the next round of attacks and oppositions and obsessions with "competing ministries" and dissenters and looking for "potential friends" etc etc etc now my head is spinning and I can't possibly believe that other churches remotely spend any time on this kind of..
Grew up in non-LC church. I moved quite a bit as a child as well. The simple answer is no. I never experienced any of what you described until I met the LC a few years back.

It is such a sad state of affairs. I pity those deceived to believe that Witness Lee and his recovery are THE way. So much energy wasted on learning and defending Witness Lee and his dying movement.
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:19 PM   #16
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I read a report on cults in China, and something like eight of the twelve covered in the paper traced themselves back to the LC.

But of course, that's just a coincidence. There's no connection whatsoever..
Aron,

You can trace denominations back to the reformation too. You can trace mainstream cults to the reformation. You can probably trace hops beer to the reformation.

So what? History of any flavor has correlation.

The fallacy in your argument is that you think correlation proves causation. It doesn’t. Which indicates that you are also under the influence of subjective validation... that is, you want to validate a belief you already hold as a starting point.... then you look for cause to prove the belief.....you see correlation and sure enough to you it is proof of causation.

It’s a logical fallacy. Your argument is a shooting from the hip at best. It could even be worse..... like seeing bunnies in the clouds.

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Old 11-03-2018, 07:24 AM   #17
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When these Chinese "shouter" cults are shouting / chanting / invoking the glorious name of Witness Lee, then you can't see any causation?

LSM used to inflate their global membership numbers with these fine folks, but now these ones have also been "quarantined."
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Old 11-03-2018, 09:21 AM   #18
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When the rubber meets the road and the most evil speaker on the internet was in town and willing to have a face to face conversation with DCP's Dan Sady, he was conveniently unavailable. Perhaps there was no interest in defending the indefensible because interest had shifted to member retention.
I called the DCP office from nearby Pasadena where I had requested time with a Fuller Seminary representative to discuss the things left out of their talks with LSM. That request was denied.

The receptionist at DCP told either Bill Buntain or Dan Sady that I was on the phone. He said to ask me what I wanted to talk about. I told her I wanted to talk about how we can diminish or eliminate the negativity toward the LC on the internet. He responded by declining the invitation to meet. The receptionist response in passing the word onto me was similar to Ron Kangas' wife's response when I called his home. Deep sigh. As if neutral and tired of ongoing conflict.
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Old 11-03-2018, 09:40 AM   #19
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When these Chinese "shouter" cults are shouting / chanting / invoking the glorious name of Witness Lee, then you can't see any causation?
LSM used to inflate their global membership numbers with these fine folks, but now these ones have also been "quarantined."
Even granting Drake's point, saying "there is no connection whatsoever" doesn't mean there is no connection whatsoever, only that one wishes that it were so, once the "PR pendulum" swings the other way.

Especially noteworthy since, ten years prior, LC leadership was claiming some of these ones (in the millions) as group members. Then when it spins out of control, suddenly there's no connection? Interesting, to say the least. Perception drives the narrative, more than actual reality on the ground. Enter the DCP.
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:02 AM   #20
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Even granting Drake's point, saying "there is no connection whatsoever" doesn't mean there is no connection whatsoever, only that one wishes that it were so, once the "PR pendulum" swings the other way.
Correlation is not causation is not the same as saying "there is no connection whatsoever". Correlation is connection. For example, you have not demonstrated that WL and the LRC are the cause of the cults, or if the cause of the cults is the reason for the LRC and many other examples. You have demonstrated a connection, you just haven't provided evidence that WL was the cause.
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:08 AM   #21
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We can however note that some of these aberrant Chinese LC spinoffs (cults?) have an excessive admiration and exaltation of Witness Lee, supposedly the Deputy Authority, today's Apostle Paul, the Minister of the Age, etc.

Does any fair-minded observer think there's a connection?
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:38 AM   #22
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We can however note that some of these aberrant Chinese LC spinoffs (cults?) have an excessive admiration and exaltation of Witness Lee, supposedly the Deputy Authority, today's Apostle Paul, the Minister of the Age,
Consider another LC spin-off, the Brazilian variant: exaltation of top leadership, control issues, paranoia, persecution complex, blatantly self-serving ''revelations'', merchandising a captive flock. . .same pattern, different location. Just a coincidence? No connection at all? Or the same spirit in a different package?

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Does any fair-minded observer think there's a connection?
Especially since the obviously biased & self-serving LC house organ says there's no connection whatsoever, this is a fair question to ask.

Put differently, why hasn't the EOC spun off dozens or even hundreds of wacko cults in Greece during its centuries there? And are we so sure China was virgin soil as WL claimed, simply because he said so?
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Old 11-03-2018, 06:01 PM   #23
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Especially since the obviously biased & self-serving LC house organ says there's no connection whatsoever, this is a fair question to ask.
There was a long stretch of road in rural New Mexico where a sign was placed that incorrectly pointed traffic East, rather than West, to Albuquerque. Local drivers that knew the roads well and those familiar with the area or navigation continued West without much thought. Those unfamiliar with the area trusted the sign and pursued Eastward, many not realizing the error of their ways until arriving at the next town over. This sign was later replaced, significantly decreasing the number of visitors to the next town over.

Correlation doesn't always prove causation, but it can. Brother Drake has offered a half truth argument - which could chalk up to subjective validation, not sure, you'd have to ask him.

**Disclaimer - I know nothing about Chinese cults nor confirm nor deny their connection to the churches of Witness Lee.

***Additional disclaimer - The inaccuracy of this sign would be irrelevant today. Just follow the blue line and arrows on your phone.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:12 PM   #24
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Even granting Drake's point, saying "there is no connection whatsoever" doesn't mean there is no connection whatsoever, only that one wishes that it were so, once the "PR pendulum" swings the other way.
Aron, I didn’t say there was no connection.

Did I? No, I did not.

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Old 11-03-2018, 07:54 PM   #25
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Correlation is not causation is not the same as saying "there is no connection whatsoever". Correlation is connection. For example, you have not demonstrated that WL and the LRC are the cause of the cults, or if the cause of the cults is the reason for the LRC and many other examples. You have demonstrated a connection, you just haven't provided evidence that WL was the cause.
ZNP is correct. Aron is reading in causation perhaps because he wants to see it (subjective validation) or he s naive or thinking overly simplistic (experiencing pateidolia) and has only shown correlation not causation.

It helps to see a similar example in a different setting: someone sends inert “bombs” to politicians to scare them. He is seen previously at political rallies, wears a political hat, and his van is covered in stickers and banners promotimg his favorite political leader. There is a connection, a correlation between the bomber and the leader but there is no proof that the leader caused the bomber to do such a terrible thing. To claim causation would be a logical fallacy and many of those who claim causation want (subjective validation) to see cause in that scenario.

Same type of logical fallacy thinking Aron asserted.

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Old 11-03-2018, 08:17 PM   #26
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I read a report on cults in China, and something like eight of the twelve covered in the paper traced themselves back to the LC.

But of course, that's just a coincidence. There's no connection whatsoever.
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The fallacy in your argument is that you think correlation proves causation.Drake
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Same type of logical fallacy thinking Aron asserted.

Drake
What exactly did aron assert? What exactly was aron's argument that he is false about?

All I see is an implication that the connection is worthy of note, or possibly that it is cause for pause that the heavy-handed LC atmosphere may tend to breed cult spinoffs. I don't see an assertion or an implication that WL caused any of them. Am I missing something between the lines?
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:27 PM   #27
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Correlation doesn't always prove causation, but it can.
Correlation is not proof of causation.

When someone argues it is sometimes, then that person sometimes asserts a logical fallacy.

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Old 11-03-2018, 08:30 PM   #28
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Aron, I didn’t say there was no connection. Did I? No, I did not.
No, but LSM spokesman Chris Wilde did. That's what I was referring to. I said, "the LSM house organ". That was a reference to Wilde in his official capacity, not to your posts.

In 1994, WL claimed 20 million shouters from the podium. I was there and heard it. In 2004 Chris Wilde said there was no connection whatsoever. In 10 years, 20 million people vanished - neat trick
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:31 PM   #29
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What exactly did aron assert? What exactly was aron's argument that he is false about?
ZNP articulated it very well.

See his last post.

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Old 11-03-2018, 08:32 PM   #30
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Correlation is not proof of causation.
At best correlation is evidence of a connection, like two links in a chain that are connected. But the fact that there is a correlation doesn't show you which link is pulling and which link is being pulled.

For example, there is a very strong correlation between the amount of ice cream sold and the temperature. But that doesn't mean that the sale of ice cream causes the temperature to increase. Perhaps the situation in communist China was conducive to this form of cult thriving.
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:59 PM   #31
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No, but LSM spokesman Chris Wilde did. That's what I was referring to. I said, "the LSM house organ". That was a reference to Wilde in his official capacity, not to your posts.

In 1994, WL claimed 20 million shouters from the podium. I was there and heard it. In 2004 Chris Wilde said there was no connection whatsoever. In 10 years, 20 million people vanished - neat trick
Ok, the construct of your sentence appeared to suggest that I said there was no connection.

We can leave that now,

You may consider speaking more plainly to be understood without the cute but mysterious “LSM house organ”.... when referring to Chris and what he said.

Therefore, exactly what quote from Chris are you referring to? Provide a kink to the whole of what said.

Thanks

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Old 11-03-2018, 09:23 PM   #32
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Therefore, exactly what quote from Chris are you referring to? Provide a kink to the whole of what said.

Thanks

Drake
http://concernedbrothers.com/BibleSm...lingScheme.pdf
Los Angeles Times, Wed., Jan. 9, 2002, p. A3

In a telephone interview, Living Stream Ministry spokesman Chris Wilde in Anaheim denied any link between his organization and either Li or the Shouters.

"We don't have any connection with them, and we really don't know that much about them," he said.

According to the indictment against Li, municipal prosecutors in Fuqing claim that the New Testament Recovery Version is a principal text of what they term "the Shouters Cult," from worshipers' practice of loudly professing devotion to Christ.


In fairness to Chris this comment to a reporter concerning a man being prosecuted for smuggling Bibles into China was quite specific to a time, place and specific recipient. He wasn't giving a history lesson, nor was the reporter interested in that. He was denying a connection in 2002.
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Old 11-03-2018, 09:57 PM   #33
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ZNP is correct. Aron is reading in causation perhaps because he wants to see it (subjective validation) or he s naive or thinking overly simplistic (experiencing pateidolia) and has only shown correlation not causation.

It helps to see a similar example in a different setting: someone sends inert “bombs” to politicians to scare them. He is seen previously at political rallies, wears a political hat, and his van is covered in stickers and banners promotimg his favorite political leader. There is a connection, a correlation between the bomber and the leader but there is no proof that the leader caused the bomber to do such a terrible thing. To claim causation would be a logical fallacy and many of those who claim causation want (subjective validation) to see cause in that scenario.

Same type of logical fallacy thinking Aron asserted.

Drake
Drake, we could use a guy like you in the media.

But when it comes to ministry matters, why do you go brain dead?
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Old 11-04-2018, 07:24 AM   #34
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http://concernedbrothers.com/BibleSm...lingScheme.pdf
Los Angeles Times, Wed., Jan. 9, 2002, p. A3
Thanks ZNP.

To all who are truly concerned.

The situation in PPRC is extremely volatile and dangerous. Christian churches who do not belong to TSPM (Three-Self Patriot Movement) and their leaders and elders have and are routinely persecuted, prosecuted, and suffer imprisonments and death sentences. TSPM is the official religious arm of the Chinese government whose aim is to bring all religious practices and church groups under its control. In order to accomplish this they label ANY group that calls on the name of the Lord as “Shouters” . It became a broad label to persecute anyone who does not comply. The justification to go after these beloved brothers and sisters as belonging to an “evil cult” was based on the defamatory and false accusatory book “The Godmen”. The judgement rendered against that book by US courts it’s author, and the publisher did not deter TSPM from using it to persecute genuine children of God. If they can tie anyone to the “evil cult” described in the book then it becomes a slam dunk verdict. Guilty. Imprisonments. Re-education camps. Death sentences. Sometimes death in prison as was the case with Watchman Nee. They also use aberrant groups like Eastern Lightning, to connect dots to advance their persecutions of believers in the Lord.

They also search the web to find support for their ideas.

Here’s the thing I find most disturbing. If you carefully step back and look at the situation carefully, consider the circumstances and the lives at risk, then I just don’t understand how anyone can be so indifferent, unaware, and inconsiderate to use the details of any actual persecution cases in China, or public statements made concerning them by church leaders, to advance their personal agenda in this forum. What meaningful benefit could possibly result especially to those dear precious suffering ones? Lord have mercy on your suffering little ones and those that assist in heaping suffering on them.

Aron, being so well informed on the subject you should already know that.

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Old 11-04-2018, 07:51 AM   #35
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Correlation is not proof of causation.
Sorry Drake, but perpetuating a half truth doesn't make it reality.

Are you saying that you can't infer causality from statistics? If two things are correlated, there is likely (not always) some reason why. Are you familiar with causal networks?
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:50 AM   #36
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If two things are correlated, there is likely (not always) some reason why.
Of course.

Yet, correlation is not proof of causation.

To assert a correlation is proof of causation is a logic fallacy.

Thx
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:06 AM   #37
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The situation in PPRC is extremely volatile and dangerous. Christian churches who do not belong to TSPM (Three-Self Patriot Movement) and their leaders and elders have and are routinely persecuted, prosecuted, and suffer imprisonments and death sentences. TSPM is the official religious arm of the Chinese government whose aim is to bring all religious practices and church groups under its control.
Every poster here is sympathetic to God's children oppressed in China and elsewhere. That goes without saying. Christians are in danger around the globe.

But what does that have to do with LSM disowning the brother who smuggled Bibles into China and disavowing any connection to the Shouters offshoot of the Little Flock?

You and LSM are far more concerned with your image and book sales than you are with suffering Christians in China, and that's why LSM has a professional PR man on staff.
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:06 PM   #38
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Every poster here is sympathetic to God's children oppressed in China and elsewhere. That goes without saying. Christians are in danger around the globe.

But what does that have to do with LSM disowning the brother who smuggled Bibles into China and disavowing any connection to the Shouters offshoot of the Little Flock?

You and LSM are far more concerned with your image and book sales than you are with suffering Christians in China, and that's why LSM has a professional PR man on staff.
Had a friend that just got back from a China as a missionary. Amen.

LSM has a PR guy?!? I think they need to reconsider their staffing... poor guy isn’t doing a great job.
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:29 PM   #39
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Had a friend that just got back from a China as a missionary. Amen.

LSM has a PR guy?!? I think they need to reconsider their staffing... poor guy isn’t doing a great job.

Chris Wilde is their PR guy at LSM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:24 PM   #40
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Chris Wilde is their PR guy at LSM.
Poor guy, don’t think I ever met him. He has an uphill battle, LSM doesn’t have a PR problem it is flawed fundamentally at its core.
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:10 PM   #41
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Poor guy, don’t think I ever met him. He has an uphill battle, LSM doesn’t have a PR problem it is flawed fundamentally at its core.
Chris Wilde helped CRI say "We Were Wrong."

Chris Wilde on why you should read your Life Studies.

It's been ten years since their last "storm." They are due for another. Good PR can help them.
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:06 PM   #42
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The situation in PPRC is extremely volatile and dangerous. Christian churches who do not belong to TSPM (Three-Self Patriot Movement) .
.
Oh, is that why WL publicly claimed allegiance of several millions in the PRC from his podium? I think the # was 15 to 20 million. Real smooth move, if so. . . I can tell you it got quite the rise from the audience. But that's all completely unrelated, right? And the communists never noticed, till I brought it up, here on the forum? Shame on me for not keeping WL's podium secrets.

Some folks seem selectively concerned, and selectively ill-informed, about LSM's history, like it's a requirement for ministry apologists. Lots of defense & little if any confirmation. Perhaps they should re-name it the Defense and Denial Project.

If I remember, it took POTUS to get the man out of jail, and LSM had no idea how 30,000 of their bibles ended up in Chinese customs. No idea at all. It's a mystery, folks. Had nothing to do with us.

And then they pretend to care about people.
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:16 PM   #43
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Perhaps they should re-name it the Defense and Denial Project....And then they pretend to care about people.
I think our friend Drake just got rope-a-doped ....just when it looked like he had aron on the ropes....kaaablaaam! So while Drake is readjusting his solar plexus and getting his air back....

It has always perplexed me how the powers that be at Living Stream could really think that it was a good idea to justify their exulting a man and his personal ministry to the level of The Gospel by hijacking this term "defense and confirmation". If it wasn't so sad, it would actually be humorous. But as it stands, DCP is really just another insignificant shot-in-the-dark by the followers of Witness Lee to try and convince at least a few outsiders that they are really and truly orthodox in teaching and practice.

If these dear brothers would spend just a fraction of the time actually paying more attention to the Bible, church history and what God has been doing in the Body of Christ as they do defending the teachings of a guy who has been dead for over 20 years, God might just be able to do something with and among that dysfunctional sect known as the Local Church of Witness Lee. May God have mercy.

-
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:05 AM   #44
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I think our friend Drake just got rope-a-doped ....just when it looked like he had aron on the ropes....kaaablaaam! So while Drake is readjusting his solar plexus and getting his air back....
-
And yet, while the duck is gasping for that elusive breath of air, his quack returning from utter silence to a faint wheezing sound, the blackout suffered from a direct solar plexus shot now yielding to merely blurred vision .... he can now hear the count.... 6,...7... 8... ... 9.... the duck stands up on both webbed feet, still woozy but ready to reengage... he flaps his wings... granted missing a few feathers from that last shot....

Then seemingly out of nowhere, flying in from above, jumping off the third rope and executing a high impact pointed elbow drop right between the wings... it’s UntoHim! It’s a tag team now! The duck goes down for the count... squawking as he gets flattened against the canvas in that crushing blow...feathers flying everywhere.... the crowd cries out for more... now folding chairs are sailing through the air toward the duck.... will he recover.?.. hard to say actually...stay tuned.

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Old 11-05-2018, 06:27 AM   #45
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And yet, while the duck is gasping for that elusive breath of air, his quack returning from utter silence to a faint wheezing sound, the blackout suffered from a direct solar plexus shot now yielding to merely blurred vision .... he can now hear the count.... 6,...7... 8... ... 9.... the duck stands up on both webbed feet, still woozy but ready to reengage... he flaps his wings... granted missing a few feathers from that last shot....

Then seemingly out of nowhere, flying in from above, jumping off the third rope and executing a high impact pointed elbow drop right between the wings... it’s UntoHim! It’s a tag team now! The duck goes down for the count... squawking as he gets flattened in that crushing blow...feathers flying everywhere.... the crowd cries out for more... now folding chairs are sailing through the air toward the duck.... will the he recover.?.. hard to say actually...stay tuned.

Drake
So much drama ... resorting to victim status ... convicted by the facts of history ... but quite the entertainer.




Drake training for rematch against UntoHim!
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:53 AM   #46
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Drake training for rematch against UntoHim!
That would be Drake training for a rematch against the tag team, Untohim & aron ... and now you.

But y'all completely miss someting about Lee's local church, even Drake :

They have a sense of humor. They've actually got Lee devotees they call Blended Brothers. Not to mention a dead Minister of the age (long passed ... haha). And the cherry on the op of their humor is, Defense and Confirmation Project. Inc, btw ... Employer identification number 91-2172681.

And it states on their tax return :
DEFENSE AND CONFIRMATION PROJECT, INC. ("DCP") IS A NONMEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION CREATED TO PROVIDE IMPORTANT SERVICES FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND THE WORLDWIDE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY - NAMELY, PROVIDING OBJECTIVE RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES. DCP'S ACTIVITIES BENEFIT AND ADVANCE SOCIETY BY PROVIDING THE GENERAL PUBLIC WITH VALUABLE INFORMATION AND ANALYSIS THAT PROMOTES AND CONFIRMS THE TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES THAT ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE INTRINSIC BIBLICAL PRESPECTIVES UPON WHICH A PEACHFUL AND HARMONIOUS SOCIETY IS BASED.
Now isn't that loaded down with humor? They're just being funny. We should all be laughing. Including those in the darn thing. Like bro Drake.

Not boxing. Laughing.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:34 AM   #47
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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A PEACHFUL AND HARMONIOUS SOCIETY IS BASED.
Is it based in Atlanta? (howzat 4 humor?)
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:04 AM   #48
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Is it based in Atlanta? (howzat 4 humor?)
Prolly just something awareness COBBLED together.

I know, I know... that is a groaner for sure.... but still trying to recover my bearings after that devastating elbow drop by UntoHim.

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Old 11-05-2018, 05:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

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Originally Posted by Drake
Prolly just something awareness COBBLED together.
Yes, from a DCP tax return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
I know, I know... that is a groaner for sure.... but still trying to recover my bearings after that devastating elbow drop by UntoHim.
Put some ice on it. You'll be back into fighting shape in no time.
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“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
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Last edited by awareness; 11-05-2018 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:23 PM   #50
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Default Re: DCP - 2016 in Review

Great! But why dost I havest me a hankerin' for some peach cobbler?! (waxing ol' English to pay Thanksgiving Day homage to our old brethren, the Plymouth Pilgrims - albeit with some bluegrass tone mixed in. . .)
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