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Old 11-13-2017, 07:51 PM   #1
KindnessNotBlindness
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Default Can I be candid?

Hi. I am new on here and joined after a sister I grew up with in the Recovery stumbled upon here. She too no longer meets. I was nervous about posting here because I am atheist and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I am happy as an atheist. I do not know if there are many Black former saints on this forum. The reason I say that is because we are a minority in the church life and I would love to know if others share my experience.

Being a Black woman in the Recovery was very, very hard for me. Even though I stuck out I felt very ignored and invisible. I felt as though to be appropriate in the church life ( If I can be very candid) you had to be "whitewashed". There is a stepford wife cookie cutter image that I feel the saints have to adhere to, male and female and regardless of ethnicity. If you dress, talk, or act a certain way it is frowned upon and I have overheard certain saints say, " Oh give them some time or let so and so fellowship with them and that will change!". I have had many saints come up to me and ask why Black people "in the world" behave a certain way, why don't I straighten my hair, they have rolled their necks and called me Girlfriend (stereotype), and I have had several saints look at me in disgust. What did I do?

I was born into the church life. The second of four to Caribbean parents. My parents are still in even though my dad rarely meets ( none of the brothers care about his attendance, they don't check on him to see why he doesn't meet although my parents have given a LOT of money, maybe over a million to the church life and have taken care of so many saints) my siblings meet here and there but they are not watered and I am reasoning with them to leave. Especially my sister who went to FTTA ( I did too....a complete waste of two years) and came back with that ridiculous Southern California accent with the weird intonations that everybody gets in the training(ie the Kardashians).

I can't begin to tell the mountain of offenses I have turned my cheeks to. Including saints inboxing me on Facebook and begging me to vote Republican, brothers talking loudly while I'm giving my testimony, or me taking care of so many saints that don't reciprocate. The brothers in the church life are grandiose and ambitious believing they are owed a super model wife even though they are overweight and the sisters are miserable gossips stuck in "just turn to your spirit and enjoy the Lord" marriages. I don't mean all because that would not be fair.

There is a lot of elitism and I can't even begin to tell you the amount of promiscuity there is among the elders and leading ones children. One training an elder's son had to be kicked out of Grace Gardens because he brought Playboy magazines and was masterbating on his bed. The saints became to me robots who regurgitate what was shared in the meeting who say "Wow" and "hallelujah" to things that are so nonsensical. I can agree my heart is hurt and I am jaded but I can't believe in a "God" who continues to bless these people's behavior. Oh, the leading brothers act so humble but they definitely fly first class and vacation on saints money. Also, when we lived in Virginia a leading brother admitted to molesting his granddaughter and they told him to repent for 6 months and when he did not return they begged him to come back. I know this to be true . Nothing is private and sacred. The elders tell their wives everything and they tell the sisters and everybody knows. If you are a Black sister please date outside the Church life because you are last on the totem pole or not even considered. The men in the world treat you much better. Even after looking at the marriages men in the world are much better.

So this comes off as a rant even though I did not mean for it to be. I hope other former Black saints will share their experiences on this forum!
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:21 PM   #2
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Hi KindnessNotBlindness. Welcome to LCD! Please tell me about your transition to atheism. What changed your thinking? Was it a difficult change to make?
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:43 PM   #3
KindnessNotBlindness
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Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
Hi. I am new on here and joined after a sister I grew up with in the Recovery stumbled upon here. She too no longer meets. I was nervous about posting here because I am atheist and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I am happy as an atheist. I do not know if there are many Black former saints on this forum. The reason I say that is because we are a minority in the church life and I would love to know if others share my experience.
Hi Kindness,
I am a woman. My heritage is Mexican. I speak both languages. I was in the LR from 1975-1978/79.

In the U.S., the majority in the LC back in the day were white people. And very MALE dominated. It still is, including this forum. (male dominated).

I don't know what it is about this forum. Women sign up and then they 'poof'. Sorry for the rabbit trail. My observation is that more and more it is Asian/Chinese people who are 'taking over' the LR.

Since the LR is global, I'm sure there are lots of Black people in other parts of the world. But honestly I don't know or have any proof.

I am happy you are happy.

Briefly.. my experience is that GOD is our friend.. our only real Friend, at least He is my Friend. I totally trust Him. I tell Him all my problems. But we share a lot of good laughs. He can be very funny! I am getting to really know Him intimately, especially lately. In fact, I experienced a paradigm shift last week and it is still on going. He is taking me to a new place spiritually speaking.

The body of Christ as a whole is really a messed up bunch!! Love them all but boy oh boy, I am careful what I say and share! Some are dogmatic: "you need to be in a church! You need to be 'tithing'. I've seen it all.. or most of it.. Pentecostals, Charismatics, Messianic (Jewish/Christian) etc. oh.. and I was raised Catholic. Too many religious spirits out there! God is not a religious Spirit at all!

I don't blame God whatsoever that the 'church' as a whole is messed up.
I blame religion and the religious spirits that have perverted, twisted and turned God's Word into a business and that includes the LC/LR.

For me, I am so thankful He is not going to forsake me, betray me or reject me and so THANKFUL He took me out of 'church' even though I have Christian friends I 'hang out' with.

Many people here go to church and if they are led to go so be it. I attended a charismatic church from 2005 - 2010/11. From 1979 - 2005, I rarely went to 'church'. From 1994 - 1996 I attended a Jewish/Messianic church. I really did my best to delve into it trying to prove the LC was wrong in its assessment that 'there is nothing in poor, poor Christianity'. Well.. they are right in a way...again my experience. But in each denomination I attended, I did learn something and grew closer to God.

The LC / LR is just another denomination. Maybe it did not start out that way. It is now though.

Revelation 18:4 says 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!' So I did. Took me a long time but so happy I am out! We live in a matrix world and religion is part of the matrix. The LC/LR is also in the matrix. No one here has ever mentioned this and I will probably be thought of as 'brainwashed' or 'weird' or something. I don't care what anyone here thinks!

Sorry I'm not Black. I thought I would respond because you are not going to get many responses since there are hardly any women on this forum and I don't think anyone here is Black.

Still. Remember: God is Spirit and He has no color on His Skin! Our mortal bodies are mere shells. Sin and religion have messed up the human race. I hope one day the Love of Jesus will envelop you as He did me. He will never leave you or forsake you. I know you don't believe in God and are happy as an atheist. I'm happy you are happy and not all screwed up as so many people are who have left the LR or are still in that religious prison.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". /. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ....

Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon.

It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!
Hi again..
I replied to your first post before reading this post. I just want to say, I too was sexually abused and felt alone. I have been hurt, betrayed, controlled, manipulated, lied to by Christians and non Christians alike. When I got violently ill with RA, I only had friends who were atheists. They were my best friends until I got sick. They quickly abandoned me. I understand now why I was abandoned by just about everyone. I even felt God had abandoned me!

NO ONE came to my aid. But honestly, skipping the details, JESUS did heal my soul. I still suffer from RA but I am in a good place spiritually and emotionally. 17 yrs I have been in physical pain 24/7. Many months it has been excruciating. I am single and don't have family. One brother in a different state. I do have friends and have great neighbors who are there for me. But it was not always like that.

I know it's hard for you to understand God is real and that God is Love because of your own experience and what you see in the patients. You have been gifted to help these people however way you do. Thank you for helping people who many people have abandoned because they don't know how to help them.

That is so wonderful!! You surely will be rewarded.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!
Welcome KindnessNotBlindness. It's been a long time since I've been in the church life, but I'm not surprised at anything you've shared. To be honest, oddly, I find your sharing refreshing, en-light-ning, and reassuring concerning my views of the LC from long ago.

How you lasted so long in the church life I don't know. You must be a saint (can an atheist be a saint? I think so). We've discussed somewhat why there are no female leadership in the local church. I don't remember, or think, there's also no black leadership, at the top, at headquarters (Drake or Evangelical please correct me if I'm wrong). My point being, sister, if I may call you that, you had two local church forces against you, if not, three, if counting the local church God force (it's a thing - "God made man in His image, and man returned the favor." someone smart said. (I can't remember who right now, and too lazy to look it up - google it).

And sister, again if I may, now you have another force against you : this particular forum. Don't get me wrong, it's not that you are a woman, not that you are black, but that you are atheist. This forum, bless its pea-oickin' heart, is waaaaay tooooo religious to be down with dat, if'n ya know what I mean.

But that doesn't mean your sharing can't be instructive, helpful, and maybe even en-light-ening. I, for one, would just love to hear more about your path from the LC to atheism. That, to me, would be of great interest. Please, if you could, share that with us. Please, pretty please ... with a cherry on top.

Also, may I invite you to the section -- the dungeon maybe, so thought of, -- called "Alternative Views." This main forum, LCD, don't care about your color or gender, but most would prefer you to be a believer. (It might be fun tho, and I admit I'd get a real kick out of it, to watch them, try to make you one. (Sorry guys and gals, brothers and sisters, or in between (very unlikely, so far, I think we need a gay section, as I know of gays in the LC, in the past, and even currently) but I had to say it ; not the gay thing, but the atheist thang. Atheists have social forces coming against them from most everywhere. Polls show, for example, that voters would rather have a gay president than an atheist one. Christians today complain that they are being persecuted -- yeah right -- but it's the atheists that are the ones being persecuted, big time, by the Christians, and all monotheist religions ; polytheists not so much -- maybe it's the "altar with this inscription: to an unknown god" factor that makes them more accepting.

Anyway sister, I'm glad you joined us, and hope to hear more from you. Share here, but get down to the nitty-gritty on Alternative Views, if that's your cup of tea.

Welcome again. Any exLCer is a friend of mine, regardless of where they've ended up, or haven't ended up (no one stays the same. We all change. Even the religious, tho less likely ... as those that think they have The Truth are a most stubborn bunch ... haha ... and change is evil to them, perchance. But that's a conversation made for Alternative views.

Blessings ....
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:26 AM   #7
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KNB, the LSM/lc is steeped in the Asian culture, values, & thinking of its progenitors Nee & Lee. Individuals must subsume to the collective. And some individuals, like blacks & women, even moreso. Anyone with talent or distinction must hide in order not to challenge leadership. Don't want to draw attention.

Of course, there's plenty of room for ambition. Just be a Maximum Cheerleader for the Maximum Brother. How do you think EM, BP, RK, MC, RG et al got where they are? Duh.

I left the LSM/lc & went into a group that made the LSM/lc look pale. Women couldn't speak in church - Paul said so. No instruments - not any in the NT. Etc. Eventually I left that & gave up on religion, and God.

God wasn't paying attention to me; why should I pay attention to God? I got tired of trying to talk to a silent God.

Eventually, I began to re-engage with the notion, simply because a universe with no conceptual center wasn't very appealing to me. I really wanted some place to hang my proverbial hat. But it was my journey. I took ownership ( or at least began to try). And that made all the difference. It's my journey.

Thanks for writing, here.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!
Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:44 AM   #9
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So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman.
I'm a man, with male perspective. I just can't help it. But I do notice how Jesus treated ALL people, including women, sinners, children, poor, crippled, 'drunkards', tax collectors. If you can't handle the word 'love', I think respect is a pretty good stand-in. So I do respect your views, and Jane's and everyone else's.

My own "root cause analysis" is that the Exclusive Brethrenism withered on it's native soil, but it struck a chord with the Chinese. Thrice it flourished. First in the Little Flock, pre-WWII, then in the House Church Movement under Mao, then in 1979 LSM operatives returned and in 1995 WL told us of "15 or 20 million shouters", if I remember right.

How did it resonate? The subsuming of self to the Hive Mind is conditioned by 5k years of human culture. Give yourself to the Church, the Body, curated by the Wise Master Builder, the Humble Bondslave of Christ. That is the root message, all the Protestant window-dressings aside. Not a co-incidence that the demographic 'face' of the LSM/lc has changed in the USA drastically from 35 years ago.

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SoI don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.
I am a know-it-all man, but I laugh at myself. I'm just another dummy on the journey.

I just like knowing everything. I can't help it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:34 AM   #10
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Countmeworthy....I count you worthy! Thanks for your response! I do understand that this forum is male dominated and of course there would not be a lot of Black people but I wanted to hear their voice if they were on here. I just realized last night that my crusade to save my fellow Black sisters and others as well from the church life into atheism was a bit too strong. We all need to take our own paths. When I was in the LC I can say that I found the mix of different races refreshing as growing up my friends went to all white, all Black, all Asain etc. places of worship and this confused me. I wonder, also, if there are a lot of brothers on here who wanted to be leaders but never could for some reason and it would be interesting to know the reason.
I do appreciate Jesus being your friend and that you have a relationship with him. He is just not someone I believe in. Peace to you!
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:44 AM   #11
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Nell, thanks so much for your response. Nothing wrong with being lilly white. Ha! There was certainly something wrong with being Black in the church life. Specifically a Black sister but I know a lot of Black brothers who are unhappy and fight against the saints worldly stereotypes that they have deemed to be true. Also to clarify not only am I atheist but I don't align with a political group and never vote. I have friends from all racial backgrounds. I reiterate that I do not want to be persuaded back to Christianity as I have my own issues with Christians and their hypocritical, elitist behavior. I really think without religion and spirituality this world would be a much better, a much healthier and happier place to live. I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:51 AM   #12
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Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:24 AM   #13
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Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!
KindnessNotBlindness, welcome to the forum!

Thanks for being so candid and articulate. Your story is really not unique, and that is why this forum exists in the first place. I was active in the LC's for way too many years before the full extent of "corruption, elitism, and entitlement" hit me square in the face. (Literally at one point.) Every one in that system is expendable in order for them to maintain their pristine image of exclusivism, elitism, and privilege. About the time of my departure, one day it really hit me that this program "produces bullies out of beloved brothers." History informs us that this is just a symptom of any system that places loyalty to a fallen man and his legacy.

Contrary to all of LSM's many books, this ministry headquartered in Anaheim is the same ministry of condemnation that we saw in the N.T. opposing Jesus and His disciples. It imprisons people in fear, legalism, and condemnation long after they quit meeting with them. It regularly heaps a laundry list of demands upon its adherents. They never feel truly loved by God because they can never qualify. In order to live their lives in sanity, many members must live a double life of hypocrisy, which you have mentioned in your posts. I watched many dear brothers and sisters simply bide their time in compliance, waiting for the eventual day of their escape.

KNB, it's all so sad! If I could say a word for your parents, being one myself, when they first contacted the churchlife it was a better place, though far from perfect. It really deteriorated over time. Under Benson Phillips, Texas took the lead in blind, zealous, loyalty to Witness Lee. After so many years, your folks' lives are intertwined with the LC. When we left the LC, we nearly had no friends, since LC people are not permitted friends, either within or without the LC.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:34 AM   #14
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So I invited KwB to this forum. We grew up together, and were at the training together. I'm so glad she joined.

In the very short time I've been here, maybe what, 48 hours? I've seen several comments, both to me and to others, that have made it painfully clear this forum is mostly Christian friendly only. I have had a demand that I explain if I "accepted Jesus" as lord and savior, after very clearly stating that I am not even Christian and of a different religion.

That is not a question you ask someone who is following another religion. It would be absurd to have someone introduce themselves as Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu, and immediately ask them that question. That's why I haven't bothered answering it. That, and it came off as rude. Granted, it is not always easy to read tone, but still, the fact it was asked at all had the flavor of gearing up for an evangelical blitzkrieg. I will not be giving that satisfaction today. Interrogation is not in my planner and I'm busy.

I have also already had the comment that I follow a religion that has deities "we" now "know" are figments of the imagination. Also rude, condescending, and therefore not receiving a response. Maybe it was meant to be funny, but it's kind of like asking a person with dark skin, "where are you REALLY from?" As if to say, "I don't consider you to be an American."

Needless to say, I'm starting to get a little ticked off. I think it's the fact that I came here seeking refuge in the common experience of experiencing trauma from the LC. I had hoped that would be enough to give us common ground. Unfortunately, instead, I am being reminded of one of the worst things about the large majority of evangelical Christians: their terrible social etiquette.

I don't think I should have to tell even a virtual roomful of adults that it is disrespectful to talk to people of other religions as if yours is the only right one, and theirs is wrong or not as genuine, as both I and now my fellow ex "sister" have now experienced. When you do this, you are retraumatizing someone who has the same trauma as you, but adding further trauma to people who are further outside the fold as it were.

One reason this really pushes my buttons is I remember BEING this way. I remember how I couldn't make friends, how I couldn't connect on a genuine, human level that would have made me feel less alone, because I did not believe I could learn anything from anyone who was not just a Christian, but an LC Christian! I know you know what I'm talking about. How can you make a connection with people if all you see is someone who you need to save?

The fallacy is a lot more dangerous than that, too; I like others here could not seek out professional help in therapy because I did not believe it could help me with spiritual issues. I'm lucky I'm still alive. As you know, others have not been as lucky. That kind of arrogance, which is often found along evangelicals, but WORSE in LC culture, ensures isolation. It is very effective. So effective that some of you are still doing it.

Look, if this forum is only for Christians, I am fine respecting that. But I would appreciate some open, explicit clarity on that, as I have not been able to find a thorough description anywhere, nor have I been able to find a list of rules, if there is one. I am happy to play by the rules. My religion does not have an evangelism mandate. I'd be happy to answer genuine RESPECTFUL questions about it, but I don't need to talk about it, and honestly, I don't really want to open up conversations that are going to end up being dominated by one scriptual text. I have also noticed the little Alternative Views section (the name implies that everyone else otherwise has the *same* views), and was intending to go there if expressing myself there would be more appropriate...and more respectfully received. Once again, I'd appreciate clarity. I would like to stick around, but if this really is just LC-Lite, then I really don't belong here. And I don't like to see my sister, who has also JUST found a connection and a hopeful opportunity for healing, have to immediately deal with proselytizing and invalidating of her religious path. You want to pray for us heathens, go for it. Knock yourself out! I never turn down positive energy. But what exactly is the point of actually telling someone directly that they will eventually renounce their path (they won't) and you know what's best for them? Thinking it is one thing...but saying it to people is just rude and AWKWARD! Has anyone here learned anything since leaving the LC?! I'm admittedly incredulous. Have you all really never been in interfaith settings? Gotten to know people who are different from you? I can't help but wonder, what have you been doing??

Incidentally, I am not surprised if ex sisters aren't sticking around, if this is the normal climate. Although I know it is usually not intentional, the aggressive, domineering way men are socialized to interact and push a point is often a turn off to women who are looking for space to not have to take care of others, couch everything they say in the most diplomatic terms possible, and pretend to not actually be sure of what they are saying when they are. That is what WE are socialized to do.

And it gets exhausting, especially when you are in need of expressing deep hurts and baggage like everyone else. When this happens enough, women often end up seeking women-only spaces. That is one very likely factor, just if you were wondering. If you're really hurting for the double X chromosomes around here and that's a problem for you, I'm just saying, now might be a good time to practice not making the same mistake. That's all I'm saying.

So if we need to leave, I trust someone here will have the huevos to simply say so, so no one is wasting anyone else's time. If, however, we are welcome, then may I please respectfully ask everyone to remember how to BEHAVE?! And not be WEIRD?!

You can see why I would never have made it as a "sister" in the LC. You know what it's like to have the personality of a bear and constantly try to stuff it into the form of a rabbit?!

Fyi, I am Black too...and Afro-Latina. There is definitely a white-washed stepford wives complex in the LC. There is also idealising and orientalizing of Asian cultural beauty standards. It actually creeped me out so much as I got older, and would visit other sisters' houses...all the same, all quiet, all decorated in pastels and domestic...it was CREEPY. I was like, how am I ever going to be like that?! That is so not me!!! It scared me. I felt certain that one day I was going to have to somehow look, act, and live the same...that that's what it meant to follow the Lord completely. Even though that was ludicrous and impossible. I am so sorry, KwB, that you suffered so much of that. I experienced some as well but not quite as overtly. I tried so hard to deny my strong nature. It made me severely depressed, if you remember...depression sometimes being anger turned inward onto oneself. And I'm horrified by and sorry that you experience assault. I did not know that. I am weeping for you.

You are BEAUTIFUL. I trust you know that now. But I always thought so. And brilliant. So who needs them.

You know, the irony is that they don't have enough respect for the presence of women until it's too late. I remember that time they realized older sisters were dying, and they started to panic, and for like the first time, they actually started TALKING to us and suggesting we have a role as prayer warriors. They treat you real bad until they quickly realize they are running out of the pool of potential marriage partners. The vindictive side of me sometimes takes pleasure in imagining what their response would be if that finally started to happen. I wonder what that rapid culture change would end up looking like, how much weirdness they'd be willing to give up.

People really don't respect the power of collective mobilized female interests. The last time it went nutzo, there was a The Beatles. (Also, though, there were hair bands...)



Quote:
Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:52 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness View Post
I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!
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Originally Posted by Mysteria View Post
I'd appreciate clarity. I would like to stick around, but if this really is just LC-Lite, then I really don't belong here.
I've been looking for other voices to find this forum for a long time. Hope you stick around.

#1 If there is a God, then He/She/It/Them probably is kooler with people who "don't believe", at least overtly/consciously, than with people who ram-rod their concepts down every one else's throats. That's my two cents, as an "evangelical Christian". Card-carrying, to boot.

Being nice is not theology, it is behavior, repeated behavior.

#2 It is good to hear from those who don't see things the way that you do. I really appreciate other perspectives. Even though I still call myself an evangelical Christian, my idea of the "gospel" has drastically changed over the past 5 years (I've been out of the LC for about 15 years). So how do I know it won't continue to evolve? Why be dogmatic? Jesus taught, do unto others . . . so if I want others to listen to me, I have to listen to others. Basic stuff here.

#3 We really need your voices to "speak truth to power" here, because the Christian view imho has been very very warped by temporal, earthly power, for centuries. It is worth noting that Jesus was offered temporal earthly power repeatedly, and repeatedly refused it.

"The crowd wanted to make Him king, but Jesus refused it"

and

"He continually withdrew"

and

"Who made me ruler over you?" (to the one who wanted Jesus to tell someone else to do something).

and

"Whoever wants to be great, be the last in stature"

etc.

So alternative views give us a chance to live what we talk. To treat "others" as if they was "us". Cuz they is "us".

You are not alone, at all. Just typically silent in these kinds of venues. In my "old locality" we had about 50 "young people" there 25 years ago. At least 30 every week, with another 20 or so in and out regularly. The last time I checked there were two still there. The rest were gone. How "local" is that? They were either "in the world" or "serving the ministry". Maybe a few had moved away and were meeting elsewhere. But the vast majority were gone.

Lastly, where I work we have Muslims, Christians, overt homosexuals, and the great indifferent masses. And we all get along. We all are part of the same team. Like I said, "they" is really "us". It's pretty basic. And I think that it approaches the Christian view. You know, love one another; not just the 'lovable' or 'lovely' ones.

So anyway, welcome home.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:00 AM   #16
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Thank you, aron. I don't know if everyone here shares your openness. But good on you being evangelical and still so thoughtful and open.

I certainly intend to stick around, but that depends on whether or not I'm allowed to. Once again, if I could find the rules anywhere, that would be helpful. I'm sure not everyone appreciates me referencing "huevos." LOL I can talk good...I promise!


Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I've been looking for other voices to find this forum for a long time. Hope you stick around.

#1 If there is a God, then He/She/It/Them probably is kooler with people who "don't believe", at least overtly/consciously, than with people who ram-rod their concepts down every one else's throats. That's my two cents, as an "evangelical Christian". Card-carrying, to boot.

Being nice is not theology, it is behavior, repeated behavior.

#2 It is good to hear from those who don't see things the way that you do. I really appreciate other perspectives. Even though I still call myself an evangelical Christian, my idea of the "gospel" has drastically changed over the past 5 years (I've been out of the LC for about 15 years). So how do I know it won't continue to evolve? Why be dogmatic? Jesus taught, do unto others . . . so if I want others to listen to me, I have to listen to others. Basic stuff here.

#3 We really need your voices to "speak truth to power" here, because the Christian view imho has been very very warped by temporal, earthly power, for centuries. It is worth noting that Jesus was offered temporal earthly power repeatedly, and repeatedly refused it.

"The crowd wanted to make Him king, but Jesus refused it"

and

"He continually withdrew"

and

"Who made me ruler over you?" (to the one who wanted Jesus to tell someone else to do something).

and

"Whoever wants to be great, be the last in stature"

etc.

So alternative views give us a chance to live what we talk. To treat "others" as if they was "us". Cuz they is "us".
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #17
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Being a racial or ethnic minority has a way of making it even harder to be individuals with unique, diverse interests. Marginalized communities appear to me to "double down" on the subtle stereotypical mainstream expectations so that they are almost caricatures. Men aren't just a little jockish...they're "macho" to the point of looking ridiculous. I feel so much sympathy for many other black people I have met who never felt like they belonged in the black communities or weren't "black enough." I've met so many of them now it has convinced me that we're all actually internalizing the same message, but it's not reflective of the truth at all. For some reason, we keep reinforcing the cages we're held in by allowing ourselves to be isolated in our unique interests, and believing that's what's expected of us. it takes a lot of strength to forge our own way. It kind of grates on me that Christianity is the supposed expectation for black people, and that they perpetuate the same superstitions and anti-black prejudice toward religions that their own ancestors practiced. Talk about internalized hatred! I do hope much of that and so many other things are changing with the rise of the Information Age, where we can connect with others not bound by time and location.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #18
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Hurting for you Countmeworthy and your experiences here. Living with chronic pain...I can't even begin to imagine. for 17 years!!!! I am glad you find comfort in your relationship with God.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:56 AM   #19
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This is not a bad take, and certainly one I've not heard before. Thanks for sharing.

While I won't get too much into it, there's another perspective I'd add.

First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith. Lilith is discarded because she refused to lie under Adam when he insisted (apparently it was an argument over sexual position, to be clear, and what that symbolized). She departs from Eden, and then Adam is given a more subservient wife, while she wanders, tormented and enraged by the attempted domination, rejection of her equal status and partnership, and then replacement.

How I read this? Personally, me being who I am and having experienced what I have, I read this story as acknowledging rape to be THE original sin. Mankind is guilty, and has been since the beginning, of treating other human beings (and other forms of life, too) as things to be used; guilty of subjugating others by virtue of overpowering, instead twisting the intended harmony of life. Humans of all genders have been suffering from this deep spiritual wound and sin ever since. Lilith is mentioned in the Christian Bible, but only as a passing reference. That's who she actually is, and there's a whole body of lore around her.

She eventually was made into a demon who forever after punished men basically with the power of sexual shame, and ate children. I read this as the subconscious acknowledgement that man knows it is guilty of this original sin, and dreams fearfully that there will be a day it will have to face revenge. However, he misses the hurt and desire for reconciliation that is so obvious.) The origins of Lilith, however, also place her as a goddess in Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, and of course in recent times she was reclaimed by feminists, especially in Dianic (goddess-centered) neo-paganism. (

In case you were wondering, that's not my brand of neo-paganism. it's just that paganism is one of the few modern religions that actually pays any attention at all to women's mysteries and the feminine divine, which has been written out of most of the other major world religions.)

Her story is very interesting, but what I find most interesting are the implications to me of the way that tree and serpent story came about. Likewise, other stories around the world, around the same time, generate explanations as to why the subjugation of women is justified. They are very revealing. I could not help seeing that even when I first heard these stories as a little Christian.

Secondly, the "serpent" has had an interesting journey, too. The serpent is and has been a power symbol and power animal in many ancient cultures, symbolizing the circle of life, or the eternity of time. This is because it sheds its skin and makes itself anew. Images of goddesses and powerful women in early cultures can be found with serpents, symbolizing her power of life. The presence of the serpent can be intended to say something about the figure it appears with. How it became a character on its own, must have been an interesting cultural evolution.

This, like the first wife of Adam, I find intriguing because you can learn something by the way stories change over time, reinterpreting symbols from positive to negative, or negative to positive, depending on the social changes and needs of the time. Some of these folkloric symbols have had an associated meaning for so long, that they have become assumed to have always had that meaning. I ask, what does that story mean, if it were to be read this way?

I do not present with this bit of nerd knowledge a particular different reading of that story, as I don't totally have one yet; I just find it interesting to know. and personally, one thing I learned a lot from, since folklore is kind of my thing, is understanding stories, their histories, how they change and what they reveal, most importantly, about the people who tell them.

No offense meant to those who take these stories literally; for myself, I read them for the wisdom lying in the symbolism, and what they say about the cultural context they came from. It makes sense to me. And I enjoy that exploration; it is in those gaps of questions that I find the poignancy of spiritual growth and search. Incidentally, if I took ANY early myths (meaning stories, not "lies") literally, I would not be able to be a pagan, since despicable actions by deities are rampant in pretty much all cultures!

I have often wondered why the early Israelites eventually became monotheistic. I haven't ever understood that, except it appears that it was a situation of identifying with a tribal deity. But they were originally polytheistic, which is why they discouraged worshiping other gods, instead of claiming there WERE no other gods.

/Pagan nerd moment

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:34 PM   #20
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Hurting for you Countmeworthy and your experiences here. Living with chronic pain...I can't even begin to imagine. for 17 years!!!! I am glad you find comfort in your relationship with God.
Thank you for your kind thoughts toward me! Yes.. this pain is a real pain in the but and everywhere else too!! But I am a very optimistic and positive person as a whole.

I should mention as a btw, I have screamed at God on more than one occassion. I have told Jesus: You came that we/I would have life and have it more abundantly ! REALLY?? REALLY?? WHAT KIND OF LIFE IS THIS!!??

He has not given me an exact answer but He has drawn me closer to Him and blessed me in other ways. You know a few months back, early in the summer, I began experiencing deep depression. Now I know we all have our ups and downs and then there are those who suffer depression from a clinical chemical imbalance.

Me, I was just super down in the dumps for quite a few months. One night I went to bed and told the Lord "Holy Spirit, I am sooo tired of being in so much pain and being depressed." That night I had a dream. In the dream I was laughing and having a grand ole time playing hide and seek with people who could not find me. As they kept getting close to me, I ran fast and hid again. I was laughing and laughing in the dream and when I woke up, the depression was gone. The physical pain was still there. But my mood was back to normal.. like it is now. I am on good medication btw that is helping me and eat healthy by staying away from bad carbs. I still have a sweet tooth but it is under control and thus I continue to look for ways to keep getting healthy even if the reports say 'there is not cure'. Bah-hum-bug! I know there is...

Please know I am not trying whatsoever to persuade you to 'turn to God'. I am simply sharing an experience I had and again am very grateful for your kind thoughts and compassion.

We need more kindness, compassion and Love in this world!
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:51 PM   #21
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T
First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith.
I have read about Lilith btw.. I have not done an indepth study to formulate my thoughts but just wanted to let you know I know all about Lilith.. or used to! It's been a while I have read that account.

I am currently doing a study on 'the seed of the serpent' though and the 'synagogue of Satan'.

Mysteria wrote:
Quote:
I have often wondered why the early Israelites eventually became monotheistic. I haven't ever understood that, except it appears that it was a situation of identifying with a tribal deity. But they were originally polytheistic, which is why they discouraged worshiping other gods, instead of claiming there WERE no other gods.

/Pagan nerd moment
Good question!
I am reading through the OT with some friends. I have an understanding what took place. I am learning a lot and seeing things I never saw before. An answer to your question would be long winded from me and I don't want to be long winded.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:37 PM   #22
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I have also already had the comment that I follow a religion that has deities "we" now "know" are figments of the imagination. Also rude, condescending, and therefore not receiving a response.
Mysteria, I'm so sorry that you've been so traumatized by the local church that you've become too sensitive to discuss your paganism.

Everyone, I'm the one that asked her on her blog, about believing in gods that we now know to be figments of the imagination. Here's what I posted on her blog :
So what is it about Paganism that you like? Surely it couldn’t be believing in gods we now know as figments of the imagination. It must be something else.
So Mysteria, you consider that question to be rude and condescending, why? Can't we discuss it openly, without offense being taken? Maybe I've read too much mythology, and about too many of the gods from those ancient days. Or maybe you don't know anything about such matters, and that's why you become offended.

But okay, just come out here and express yourself -- I love it -- and we won't respond, cuz we might be rude and condescending if we do. How are we ever going to know what offends you?

Maybe right now you're too raw to be on a forum, or have a blog. Maybe you need more time to heal.

That said, I'm sorry if I offended you on your blog. That was not my intention at all. I'll just butt out. I hope for your speedy recovery. And that was intentionally condescending. Feel free to be rude to me. I've healed from my local church trauma, I can take it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:54 PM   #23
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You can be as condescending as you like. I can also take it. I just don't put up with it. It kinda doesn't seem like you can, though...

I *am* a little raw, true, particularly after the things coming up from joining here and what it brings back. As to not being "ready," it's been years since I was in the LC. I've done plenty of processing. I would not say I'm easily offended, and I'm certainly knowledgeable about the topic. Also, I love discussing it when people are interested.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you would be surprised that question would be offensive? I realize that most of the time when people say things like what I listed, they have no idea they are being offensive. But I feel like for thinking people, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider their words when talking to someone of a different background. Sure we can discuss it openly. But I have to say, I don't quite understand exactly why you would not think that telling a person their religion involves fake deities might not be offensive, and even deliberate?

Granted, it is not often people run into neo pagans unless you're in certain circles, so your question reflects i think the cultural assumption that other mythologies are widely accepted to be fairy tales. But that doesn't translate to me why you might ask the question you did in a way that implies surely it CAN'T be that? Maybe you meant it to be lighthearted, but I would like to think you can understand how that might not be the best thing to say to someone of an unfamiliar religion?

Context wise, your timing may just have been unfortunate, considering there were several things, not all here, that added up to my agitation. ALL of that was not directed at you, and I'm sorry if you received it that way. But I think just as it is useful for someone like me to be able to not be easily offended, it is useful for someone like you to be willing to accept criticism for appearing to not take someone else's beliefs as seriously as your own, whether you meant to or not.

I can empathize with being misunderstood. I would readily apologize if that's the case, and you can help me understand that that's what happened. That being said, reacting the way you are, passive-aggressively insulting me and suggesting I'm not knowledgeable (which I am) or can't talk about my religion (which I do regularly) is not the most graceful way to handle it. And if you think that's going to work in making me feel bad, or drive me away, erm...you haven't been paying attention. The "you're too sensitive" reaction is a familiar tactic to remove personal responsibility, and I'm not in the habit of indulging it.

Why don't we start over? What exactly is the question you meant to ask me? Your original question comes off as rhetorical, not like you really expected an answer. I was actually very surprised by it. Maybe your actual inquiry was lost in translation? Keeping in mind the challenges of communicating through text...
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:22 PM   #24
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Awesome! I would love to know more about what you're learning.

I know the Bible better than the average person, given my upbringing...but I've been away from it for a while. One thing I think I can gain from being here (if I can avoid being booted) is learning some nuances from people who are continuing to be actively engaged with it.

I'm pretty long-winded myself if you haven't noticed... :/ Should we be starting a new thread or something?

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
I have read about Lilith btw.. I have not done an indepth study to formulate my thoughts but just wanted to let you know I know all about Lilith.. or used to! It's been a while I have read that account.

I am currently doing a study on 'the seed of the serpent' though and the 'synagogue of Satan'.

Mysteria wrote:


Good question!
I am reading through the OT with some friends. I have an understanding what took place. I am learning a lot and seeing things I never saw before. An answer to your question would be long winded from me and I don't want to be long winded.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:12 PM   #25
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Hi KNB! Loved reading your posts. Your observations are spot on as far as my experience goes. Talk about snootiness, at my final conference I noted that well after the singing started the being blinded ones sashayed into the meeting with the elders and the wanting to be blinded brothers with their glum, grumpy, almost never smiling fake gravitas mugs to sit on the reserved front rows. Kind of like royalty. I'm so glad there isn't a clergy class of people in the LSM's recovery movement!

I worked for three years as an instructor at a historically back university in the south and on several occasions wished my white skin was darker. I would sit in the sun during lunch trying to get some color so I wouldn't look so white. It was a good experience for me to feel different and noticing my feeling of wanting to be like others.

Thanks for taking the time to drop in and and share your experiences.

All the best and happiness to you and your family.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:12 PM   #26
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Nell, thanks so much for your response. Nothing wrong with being lilly white. Ha! There was certainly something wrong with being Black in the church life. Specifically a Black sister but I know a lot of Black brothers who are unhappy and fight against the saints worldly stereotypes that they have deemed to be true. Also to clarify not only am I atheist but I don't align with a political group and never vote. I have friends from all racial backgrounds. I reiterate that I do not want to be persuaded back to Christianity as I have my own issues with Christians and their hypocritical, elitist behavior. I really think without religion and spirituality this world would be a much better, a much healthier and happier place to live. I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!
Thanks KNB,

What do you think about my root cause?

Nell
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:50 PM   #27
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You can be as condescending as you like. I can also take it. I just don't put up with it. It kinda doesn't seem like you can, though...

I *am* a little raw, true, particularly after the things coming up from joining here and what it brings back. As to not being "ready," it's been years since I was in the LC. I've done plenty of processing. I would not say I'm easily offended, and I'm certainly knowledgeable about the topic. Also, I love discussing it when people are interested.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you would be surprised that question would be offensive? I realize that most of the time when people say things like what I listed, they have no idea they are being offensive. But I feel like for thinking people, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider their words when talking to someone of a different background. Sure we can discuss it openly. But I have to say, I don't quite understand exactly why you would not think that telling a person their religion involves fake deities might not be offensive, and even deliberate?
Okay, I understand now. The pagan gods are real to you. Which ones? All of them? I guess I've been spoiled. I'm a big fan of mythology, and have read many books on it, many by Joseph Campbell, the MOTA of a different sort, the Mythologist of the Age ; books like "A Hero with a Thousand Faces," and "Masks of God" - 4 books : Primitive Mythology, Oriental Mythology, Occidental Mythology, and Creative Mythology. They cover the whole gambit of gods, all the way back to the first and only universal religion on planet earth (that we know about): Animism.

So my question about your paganism, and gods that are figments was no big deal to me. There are thousands of them. All the mega-myths of old, that provided cohesion to early civilizations, are now considered false constructs, or figments if you will. But even tho they were false they were still functional. Beliefs don't have to be real to produce positive results. Early civilization builders believed that the purpose of humans were to serve the gods, and that their leader was God's representative on earth. So they served the leader. We have the Pyramids because of those beliefs. They were false beliefs, but still worked to build civilizations.

I was honestly hoping you would tell me what you like about paganism. But okay. I screwed up, and called your gods phony. You don't know me yet, but I've said that out here about the depiction of God in the Old Testament ... and in the book of Revelation. I think those are phony depictions of God ... and have taken heat for saying it, as expected.

I don't have any problems discussing these kinds of things. And I know it upsets believers. But that's where I have arrived after years of coming out of the local church. Just as you have arrived at paganism, and your friend Kindness, that has arrived at atheism (to no gods whatsoever).

I guess we all have different paths. I think I've pointed that out with exLCer friends that I have.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. My bad. Sorry. Let's try again.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:11 PM   #28
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Awesome! I would love to know more about what you're learning.

I know the Bible better than the average person, given my upbringing...but I've been away from it for a while.
Oh yes! There is a new thread that just came up here where different topics can be discussed. I have been wanting to share my findings and thoughts on the topic of the Judgment seat of Christ and the Great White Throne

That is the the place different topics can be brought up. I have a plateful of different topics I have been studying on. They all tie in together: Illuminati, Rothschilds, seed of the serpent, the synagogue of Satan. I'm trying to tie it all together so I have a good understanding and am able to explain what I have found. I am also going to go back and re read the account of Lillith. For now, that account is not on the front burner.

Quote:
One thing I think I can gain from being here (if I can avoid being booted) is learning some nuances from people who are continuing to be actively engaged with it.
Oh you won't be booted outta here! It takes a lot to be booted outta here. Just ask Awareness. He has been booted out of here temporarily. He's the forum's 'troublemaker' We are friends even though on very different pages. If he plucks your last nerve, feel free to him.

Quote:
I'm pretty long-winded myself if you haven't noticed... :/ Should we be starting a new thread or something?
Takes one to know one... plus as women, we have the 'gift' of gab/ long windedness
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:58 PM   #29
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I'm not sure why there is a need to be condescending especially intentionally so. That's a little too aggressive for my liking. I can appreciate other people's views and even debate as long as it's profitable. You teach me, I teach you. Or you don't teach me and I don't teach you but we get our points across with civility. I don't think it's fair to label someone's Gods as figments of the imagination because that would mean your God is a figment of the imagination as well. I can assure both of you have good arguments to prove your point. I do personally know Mysteria and she has been out of the LC longer than me and has faced opposition even passive aggressive remarks from me when I was still in. It is hard to leave the LC when you grow up in it and it is all you know. When you leave there is great abandonment and you can only return if you "come back into the fold". I do think she is ready to have a blog because of her experiences and how much she had to overcome to be at peace. She is literally one of the smartest people I know so she can definitely hold her own but respect is a pretty classy thing. I'm into it. Peace to all!
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:03 PM   #30
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I screwed up too. It just took a moment for me to return from hulk form.

Awareness, I am sorry that I misread your question and assumed it was hostile.

And I apologize to EVERYONE here for similarly assuming the worst. I am embarrassed.

The truth is, several people have mentioned that this forum is mostly Christian, and I felt initially so discouraged and bummed out by that I was reading everything through that lens.

Also, I have to admit I have had the luxury of being around people of like mind for several years now. Yikes! I have to remember that fringe groups are exactly that. They aren't necessarily the norm. I have not been around a group of Christians for a while now.

Apologies to countmeworthy too because I did not read your responses very carefully, and I was feeling very protective of my friend. Because of that I missed the beautiful story you were telling me of your healing! That is an awesome story. I love stuff like that.

I *am* able to admit when I'm wrong even though I don't like doing it. :P I sometimes have to have the tantrum first. I'm sorry, Awareness. I just didn't want to lose what I thought I'd just found.

I spent so much of my life apologizing for what OTHER people do, at the expense of myself, that when I realized that's what I was doing, I began to condition myself to do the opposite. And let's face it...I assume everyone has noticed I have some slight anger issues...LOL

Okay, to briefly touch on your question, as I'm about to leave and I want to give more thought to it, I don't believe the gods are "real" in the sense that I once believed in Jesus. I (and this is common, actually) accept them as facets and manifestations of the divine, AND at the same time hold space for them as being merely archetypes. I'm of a similar opinion that something doesn't have to be objectively real to be useful, and since none of us can prove anything anyway, except that what one believes does in some respect shape the world around them and their experience of it, I've made it a conscious choice because it makes me happy.

I'm so happy and excited people here actually want to know about mine and other beliefs...and I'm also humbled, because I wasn't expecting that.

Please ya'll forgive me for being awkward. I got a little spooked, that's all. I do very much want to get to know all of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Okay, I understand now. The pagan gods are real to you. Which ones? All of them? I guess I've been spoiled. I'm a big fan of mythology, and have read many books on it, many by Joseph Campbell, the MOTA of a different sort, the Mythologist of the Age ; books like "A Hero with a Thousand Faces," and "Masks of God" - 4 books : Primitive Mythology, Oriental Mythology, Occidental Mythology, and Creative Mythology. They cover the whole gambit of gods, all the way back to the first and only universal religion on planet earth (that we know about): Animism.

So my question about your paganism, and gods that are figments was no big deal to me. There are thousands of them. All the mega-myths of old, that provided cohesion to early civilizations, are now considered false constructs, or figments if you will. But even tho they were false they were still functional. Beliefs don't have to be real to produce positive results. Early civilization builders believed that the purpose of humans were to serve the gods, and that their leader was God's representative on earth. So they served the leader. We have the Pyramids because of those beliefs. They were false beliefs, but still worked to build civilizations.

I was honestly hoping you would tell me what you like about paganism. But okay. I screwed up, and called your gods phony. You don't know me yet, but I've said that out here about the depiction of God in the Old Testament ... and in the book of Revelation. I think those are phony depictions of God ... and have taken heat for saying it, as expected.

I don't have any problems discussing these kinds of things. And I know it upsets believers. But that's where I have arrived after years of coming out of the local church. Just as you have arrived at paganism, and your friend Kindness, that has arrived at atheism (to no gods whatsoever).

I guess we all have different paths. I think I've pointed that out with exLCer friends that I have.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. My bad. Sorry. Let's try again.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:07 PM   #31
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I'm not sure why there is a need to be condescending especially intentionally so. That's a little too aggressive for my liking. I can appreciate other people's views and even debate as long as it's profitable. You teach me, I teach you. Or you don't teach me and I don't teach you but we get our points across with civility. I don't think it's fair to label someone's Gods as figments of the imagination because that would mean your God is a figment of the imagination as well. I can assure both of you have good arguments to prove your point. I do personally know Mysteria and she has been out of the LC longer than me and has faced opposition even passive aggressive remarks from me when I was still in. It is hard to leave the LC when you grow up in it and it is all you know. When you leave there is great abandonment and you can only return if you "come back into the fold". I do think she is ready to have a blog because of her experiences and how much she had to overcome to be at peace. She is literally one of the smartest people I know so she can definitely hold her own but respect is a pretty classy thing. I'm into it. Peace to all!
Lol I'm also probably one of the craziest people she knows. Girl, I don't remember any passive aggressive comments from you!!! Thank you for understanding and supporting my point...but also both points.

Let me just say this...being pagan, I can appreciate Awareness being the agent of chaos around here he appears to be...lol every group needs a trickster. He's a little hard to read, I'm finding...
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:13 PM   #32
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Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell
In response to your root cause analysis I can only repeat my beliefs. I am atheist and I do not believe in God or Satan. I believe things happen because they happen. The Bible is fantasy to me and I reiterate that if it was not written I could have a psych patient write down their hallucinations and it would be similar to what was written. Christianity, religion, and spirituality are all phenomenons to me. I stay far away from that realm. I do think some people are inherently evil to the point that they cannot control their own depravity. Why? I don't know. Why did God stand up when Peter was being stoned instead of saving him from that fate? I don't know. A Black man gets shot in the back eight times. Oh, no! Let's pray to God. Why? He saw him get stoned, get shot, watches children die of cancer, watches the mentally ill die prematurely because they are too ill to properly take care of themselves. Satan gets blamed for all the bad God allows to happen. He cannot be real. Cannot be. Satan is an excuse for bad behavior and treating others unkind. God is an excuse for controlling people and draining them of their finances. I love people and try to be kind. I want people to feel cherished when they are around me. Sometimes I'm not nice but I'm the one to blame. I don't worship myself. I don't worship anything. Peace to you.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:21 PM   #33
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Hi KNB! Loved reading your posts. Your observations are spot on as far as my experience goes. Talk about snootiness, at my final conference I noted that well after the singing started the being blinded ones sashayed into the meeting with the elders and the wanting to be blinded brothers with their glum, grumpy, almost never smiling fake gravitas mugs to sit on the reserved front rows. Kind of like royalty. I'm so glad there isn't a clergy class of people in the LSM's recovery movement!

I worked for three years as an instructor at a historically back university in the south and on several occasions wished my white skin was darker. I would sit in the sun during lunch trying to get some color so I wouldn't look so white. It was a good experience for me to feel different and noticing my feeling of wanting to be like others.

Thanks for taking the time to drop in and and share your experiences.

All the best and happiness to you and your family.
I laughed a little at this because I thought it was cute! Be happy you are the race you are my darling! I like variety and I think it is a beautiful thing we are not the same. It's beautiful!
Yeah, one experience I had was somebody asking, " Oh, where would I know you from?" Umm, nowhere because I'm not a celebrity in the church life. Oddly enough I didn't know her either(sarcasm). Some of the leading brothers would proudly tell stories of the lengths people would go to speak with them and even saints wanting their autographs, lol. The sad thing is that there are so many saints that are hurting. I mean depressed and bleeding out and they never get heard. They never get cared for and they are unimportant. Breaks my heart. Peace to you.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:53 PM   #34
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Hi KNB. I think I read that you had a connection to Houston. Did you know a brother Marcus? He was a dear friend. Don't have to answer here, you can PM me if you want.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:12 PM   #35
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I screwed up too. It just took a moment for me to return from hulk form.

Awareness, I am sorry that I misread your question and assumed it was hostile.
I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria
And I apologize to EVERYONE here for similarly assuming the worst. I am embarrassed.
Me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria
The truth is, several people have mentioned that this forum is mostly Christian, and I felt initially so discouraged and bummed out by that I was reading everything through that lens.
Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystica
I have not been around a group of Christians for a while now.
I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria
I *am* able to admit when I'm wrong even though I don't like doing it. :P I sometimes have to have the tantrum first. I'm sorry, Awareness. I just didn't want to lose what I thought I'd just found.
I'm just the opposite, I guess. I've been wrong so many times I've grown use to it. I can't trust myself any more.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystica
I assume everyone has noticed I have some slight anger issues...LOL
If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystica
Okay, to briefly touch on your question, as I'm about to leave and I want to give more thought to it, I don't believe the gods are "real" in the sense that I once believed in Jesus. I (and this is common, actually) accept them as facets and manifestations of the divine, AND at the same time hold space for them as being merely archetypes. I'm of a similar opinion that something doesn't have to be objectively real to be useful, and since none of us can prove anything anyway, except that what one believes does in some respect shape the world around them and their experience of it, I've made it a conscious choice because it makes me happy.
Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria
I'm so happy and excited people here actually want to know about mine and other beliefs...and I'm also humbled, because I wasn't expecting that.
Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria
Please ya'll forgive me for being awkward. I got a little spooked, that's all. I do very much want to get to know all of you.
And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:20 PM   #36
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If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me.
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Why did God stand up when Peter [Stephen] was being stoned instead of saving him from that fate? I don't know. A Black man gets shot in the back eight times. Oh, no! Let's pray to God. Why? He saw him get stoned, get shot, watches children die of cancer, watches the mentally ill die prematurely because they are too ill to properly take care of themselves. Satan gets blamed for all the bad God allows to happen. He cannot be real. Cannot be.
KnB, these are very difficult questions to answer, and a very difficult subject for many people.

On the thread "The Problem of Evil" in the Alternative Views Sub-Forum we explored this topic for some time with many diverse viewpoints, in case you are interested.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:28 AM   #37
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Thank you, aron. I don't know if everyone here shares your openness. But good on you being evangelical and still so thoughtful and open.

I certainly intend to stick around, but that depends on whether or not I'm allowed to. Once again, if I could find the rules anywhere, that would be helpful. I'm sure not everyone appreciates me referencing "huevos." LOL I can talk good...I promise!
Hi Mysteria,

I'm so proud to say that I appreciated your "huevos" reference. I read it and thought, "I wonder if she meant to say...ohhhhhhh, I see what she did there!" Glad to have your voice and perspective here. Reminds me to be a participant rather than just a lurker.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:32 AM   #38
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KnB, these are very difficult questions to answer, and a very difficult subject for many people.

On the thread "The Problem of Evil" in the Alternative Views Sub-Forum we explored this topic for some time with many diverse viewpoints, in case you are interested.
You took the words right outta me mouth bro Ohio.

The problem of evil has been a question since 500 years before Jesus. Maybe longer, but no record of it, so far ; and it's caused lots of believers to become atheists.

I'm pleased to see you embrace Kindness. She's not just a believer that became an atheist, she's a LCer that became an atheist (and I think she's better off).

She reminds me of your favorite leading Bible scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman. The POE threw him too. From what I've read out here he went from a devoted born again to an atheist because of the problem of evil (he actually embraces agnosticism, if anything - but he sure knows his Bible inside and out (that's what tripped up his belief that the Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God).

Hey, maybe sister Kindness can resurrect the POE thread, way way down in the sub-forum in the dungeon of AltVs (right next to Tartarus, methinks). That would be cool.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:49 AM   #39
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You took the words right outta me mouth bro Ohio.

The problem of evil has been a question since 500 years before Jesus. Maybe longer, but no record of it, so far ; and it's caused lots of believers to become atheists.

I'm pleased to see you embrace Kindness. She's not just a believer that became an atheist, she's a LCer that became an atheist (and I think she's better off).

She reminds me of your favorite leading Bible scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman. The POE threw him too. From what I've read out here he went from a devoted born again to an atheist because of the problem of evil (he actually embraces agnosticism, if anything - but he sure knows his Bible inside and out (that's what tripped up his belief that the Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God).

Hey, maybe sister Kindness can resurrect the POE thread, way way down in the sub-forum in the dungeon of AltVs (right next to Tartarus, methinks). That would be cool.
Not easy to steal your lines bro.

For those who believe God (Hebrews chapter 11 provides a brief summary of some long before 500BC), the Problem of Evil is not a problem, rather an admission that "His ways are not our ways."
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:29 AM   #40
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Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. .
The LSM/lc programme is immersive and all-encompassing. For years after I left them physically, and met with other Christians, I'd sit in a meeting and I'd think, "Hmpf - that's not God's economy".

My own path led me, eventually, through a very wonderful 'functionally agnostic' period where I forgot all about God, learned to think again, and learned to take responsibility for my own emotional well-being instead of being co-dependent on some manipulative system.

So I have a lot of tolerance today for "alternative viewpoints". And as I tolerate and respect others, lo and behold others begin to show me tolerance and respect, too! The old "give and it will be given unto you" rubric really works. Fancy that.

And I no longer need the "right church" or artfully constructed theological matrix to make me whole. That was never God's plan for me.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:12 PM   #41
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Not easy to steal your lines bro.

For those who believe God (Hebrews chapter 11 provides a brief summary of some long before 500BC), the Problem of Evil is not a problem, rather an admission that "His ways are not our ways."
The old 'only God knows the grand plan' routine. I remember that. It never added up. Even when I was a dyed in the wool LC believer it didn't make sense. I mean, if God has a grand plan, why keep it to Himself?

Please God tell me. Tell me how your grand plan includes drowming everybody, and it's a good thing. Or tell me why babies have to die and in your grand plan it's a good thing.

Now I wonder how God can do evil and in his grand plan it's a good thing.

Anyway, it's all been discussed on the POE thread, down next door to Tartarus, in AltVs.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:17 PM   #42
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The old 'only God knows the grand plan' routine. I remember that. It never added up. Even when I was a dyed in the wool LC believer it didn't make sense. I mean, if God has a grand plan, why keep it to Himself?
He tried to tell you, but you decided that the scriptures were "flawed."
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:24 PM   #43
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I am not surprised if ex sisters aren't sticking around, if this is the normal climate. Although I know it is usually not intentional, the aggressive, domineering way men are socialized to interact and push a point is often a turn off to women who are looking for space to not have to take care of others, couch everything they say in the most diplomatic terms possible, and pretend to not actually be sure of what they are saying when they are. That is what WE are socialized to do.

And it gets exhausting, especially when you are in need of expressing deep hurts and baggage like everyone else. When this happens enough, women often end up seeking women-only spaces. That is one very likely factor, just if you were wondering.
I'm a man and think like a man (which has its plusses and minuses). One thing I occasionally think about is how a movement whose early collective expression and experience was so clearly influnced by women (e.g., Margaret Barber, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Mary McDonough) ended up being a place where women had to sit staring at the opposite wall, pretending to be brain-dead?

Here's a quote showing the obvious early influence of women.

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For a variety of reasons, including the anti-Western movement of the 1920s, many Chinese Christian leaders were seeking ways to form indigenous churches that would be free from Western missionary control. Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

By G. Wright Doyle, Director, Global China Center; English Editor, Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Christianity, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.
So, what happened?I mean, doesn't anyone see the glaring dis-connect between what the Ni/Li movement once was, and what it became? I wonder how the rank-and-file, especially women, don't see this. It's just too obvious that something's amiss.

90 years ago, Dora Yu could be a lioness of the "early recovery" but today, when women can be President of the USA, they can't speak except "under the covering", i.e. abject servility. . . ? And don't tell me that Barber or Penn-Lewis had some male "covering" - they didn't.

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:35 PM   #44
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He tried to tell you, but you decided that the scriptures were "flawed."
Oh that grand plan. That one comes thru even with errant scripture. And then there's Lee's God's Economy, and eternal purpose -- the building.

But none of that answers theodicy. That's the supposed plan that explains evil, that God is keeping to Himself, or that we use to explain away why God causes evil ; His ways aren't our ways. (Yeah, because our ways has at least some morals - I'm just being candid here).

But thanks for pointing out that the scriptures are flawed. They have to be, because, they were written and modified by flawed men -- modifications thanks to the wonderful Christians that you support, your cradle religion, the RCC. It's your fault .. haha.
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:42 PM   #45
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Hi KNB. I think I read that you had a connection to Houston. Did you know a brother Marcus? He was a dear friend. Don't have to answer here, you can PM me if you want.
I do not but I can ask!
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:30 PM   #46
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How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?
The power of control, the power of Jezebel is stronger than you know Aron. Intelligence has nothing to do with that spirit. Fear of being rejected, of being outcasted especially from those you love will override intelligence.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:02 PM   #47
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The LSM/lc programme is immersive and all-encompassing. For years after I left them physically, and met with other Christians, I'd sit in a meeting and I'd think, "Hmpf - that's not God's economy".

My own path led me, eventually, through a very wonderful 'functionally agnostic' period where I forgot all about God, learned to think again, and learned to take responsibility for my own emotional well-being instead of being co-dependent on some manipulative system.
I am so happy you realized the LR became (maybe always was??) a manipulative system, directed and controlled by the spirit of Jezebel. Isn't it interesting (at least it is for me) in retrospect, the similarities between Lee and the pope? The RCC claims it is the one true church. The LR claims it is 'the church'. The RCC has parishes. Everywhere you go to mass in any part of the world, you recognize it as the RCC. Anywhere around the world you attend an LSM meeting, you recognize it as such and feel right at home (mostly) just as a Catholic living in the U.S. but goes to mass in Africa will feel right at home.

It's no wonder the spirit of Jezebel infiltrated the LC.
I often think of the LC in Revelation 2 when the Lord is reprimanding the church in Ephesis. They had everything going for them but lost their first LOVE. IS THERE ANY LOVE IN THE LR???

Then read what the Lord says to Thyatira...
I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray

Isn't it sad and true that many people who have left the LR don't want to have anything to do with God? But in time, people like you and me were, will be drawn back to our Father because His Love for us pulls us back to HIM.

In 1 kings, Jezebel was a pagan who worshipped false gods and idols. (no offense to the atheists who refer to themselves as pagans reading this post).

You know that Ahab, a Jewish king married Jezebel, not only a non Jewish woman but a pretty wicked, evil and controlling person. She weakened Ahab and made him afraid. That fear and his weak soul empowered her to control him. But remember Ahab DISOBEYED GOD by marrying a pagan woman in the first place! So you boys --- don't go blaming the woman for being controlling and manipulative!

That spirit of domination, controlling, manipulation, power can and has grabbed hold of both men and women's hearts throughout all history. Why have children been terrified of telling an adult of sexual or emotional abuse? They are intimidated by power. (ungodly power). Who controls this world, the banking system, the corporations, the mafia, religion institutions? MEN! The spirit of Jezebel has possessed MEN in power: The Pope is a man as are his minions. The Rothschilds, the Astors, etc.. men... oh you have women in power too, the queen of England for one.

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And I no longer need the "right church" or artfully constructed theological matrix to make me whole. That was never God's plan for me.
Nor is it God's plan for anyone to be 'in church'. We are to be IN CHRIST. And that's why I don't go 'to church'. 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!' Revelation 18.

We have all been taught that believers are 'the church'. Yet are forced to 'go to church'.

We are supposed to encourage, exhort, uplift and build up one another in the Lord.

Where does it say we need to be going 'to church' to do that? But don't tell the 'churchers' you don't go to church! They will you for not going! Churchers pluck my last nerve! That said, for many who only knew the LR, going to 'church' can be good... part of the healing process.

It took me a long time to go 'to church' after leaving the LC but I needed that for a season. Partly for healing and partly for learning. Glad the Lord took me out of there too.

Shalom everyone!
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:18 PM   #48
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I am so happy you realized the LR became (maybe always was??) a manipulative system, directed and controlled by the spirit of Jezebel.
Became my foot. Jessie Penn Lewis was a Jezebel that killed the Welsh Revival. And her spirit was in Nee and Lee. So the LR didn't become of the Jezebel spirit. It began that way. I think it plugged right into the Chinese culture, that subjugates women from childhood.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:14 PM   #49
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Became my foot. Jessie Penn Lewis was a Jezebel that killed the Welsh Revival. And her spirit was in Nee and Lee. So the LR didn't become of the Jezebel spirit. It began that way. I think it plugged right into the Chinese culture, that subjugates women from childhood.
Just so you know, I have never read anything by JP Lewis or Margaret Barber, Madame Guyon, or Mary McDonough..

From my experience, most of my bible mentors, aside from the Holy Spirit and His revelation have been men. Yet.. I AM baffled that a lot of them had women mentors. The men of course have become more 'famous' than their mentors. Honestly.. had it not been for the LC I would never had heard of Jesse Penn Lewis. I've only heard of her name but have never taken an interest to read her. No reason either.

I know Nee had a woman mentor. Was it Margaret Barber? In any case, I have never read anything on Nee's mentor. I think I read where he would go to her house for mentoring/teaching and she would shoo him away until he 'got' whatever she was trying to get through to him. Something like that.

I don't think Lee had a woman mentor. In fact, I think he disliked women. He never mentioned his wife that I recall. He never praised/complimented any sister.

I know more about Philip Lee than his wife!! And aside of Philip and his brother, the kids and grandkids all went by the wayside.

I have also never studied or read on the revivals. Revivals never have interested me. They're like hurricanes. They come with power and strength and then when they make landfall, they fall apart.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:14 AM   #50
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Default The sky is blue.

There are a lot of statements out here that begin with "I believe..." and/or "I am ...". An atheist believes that God does not exist. Does that mean that in fact, there is no God? Does the belief that the Bible is fantasy mean that in fact, the Bible is fantacy? Does believing the sky is green in fact mean that the sky is green?

There is a difference between what we believe and what is truth. The truth is absolute and we can believe it or not, but truth isn't changed by man's "poor reach of mind. " There's room for opinions, but opinions may or may not be truth.

Regardless, to begin, we ask Jesus into our heart and he comes to live in us. He saves us from our sins. He comes to live in us for all time. We are a Christian for better or worse, for eternity. At some point in our Christian life, we may come to a crossroads and we must make a decision on which way to go. For me, I chose to believe that God IS who he said he is. I chose to believe that Bible is God's inerrant Word. The Bible is Truth.

This takes me back to my "root cause" analogy. It's like driving a stake which becomes a boundary. I can only be pushed so far back until I reach the line I cannot cross. Until you choose who you will serve, there will be questions. Endless questions, but no answers. Confusion. Sinking sand. Blaming God instead of believing God and his Word. Taking the sinful behavior of the LC as a standard for God and His Holiness is a mistake.

There's a hymn that goes "I have decided to follow Jesus...no turning back." This is where faith takes over.

Truth is absolute and is unaffected by man's belief about it...something I agree with WNee on.

I know. You can challenge me all you want, but it's too late for me. "To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't believe, no explanation is possible." I can't not believe. I can only testify that the sky is blue.

Nell
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:42 AM   #51
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Default Re: My sky is white at the moment. Sometimes it's orange.

Thanks sister in the Lord Nell, for your statement of faith. But it can't just be wholeheartedly unquestionably accepted, cuz you've been wrong before, on this forum. Plus, it's a matter of faith, which is subjective.

Moreover, I think everyone out here has been born again, even any exLCers that are now atheists. And I'm pretty sure most all of us knows the Bible.

But we may not come to the same conclusions as you. We're all different, and go different ways, and take different paths, after leaving the LC.

But thanks much for your statement of faith. It was written with great clarity. If it's any consolation, I think all got your message loud and clear. The sky is blue (but not all the time).

And we could always introduce science into the matter of a blue sky. The Bible does speak of the rainbow, but it never mentions the prism effect that produces it. Alas, it's not a science book.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 PM   #52
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Just so you know, I have never read anything by JP Lewis or Margaret Barber, Madame Guyon, or Mary McDonough...
But if you read anything by Nee or Lee you read theology heavily indebted to them. For example, Nee's first book, "Spiritual Man", was simply JP Lewis plagiarized. Later editions of the book had to acknowledge what the first did not. Both Nee & Lee plagiarized others' work, including women, and passed it off as their own.

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I know Nee had a woman mentor. Was it Margaret Barber? In any case, I have never read anything on Nee's mentor. I think I read where he would go to her house for mentoring/teaching and she would shoo him away until he 'got' whatever she was trying to get through to him. Something like that....
So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

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I don't think Lee had a woman mentor. In fact, I think he disliked women. He never mentioned his wife that I recall. He never praised/complimented any sister....
And the Blendeds are peas in the Lee Pod. Current Ministry Mouthpiece RK once told us, "Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". I was aghast. I mean, I was pretty 'conservative' socially but that was waaaaay over the top. The meeting sat there silently, and he went on.

We all should have gotten up and walked out. I should have. But I was intimidated by the Hive Mind and the Power of the Maximum Brother.

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I have also never studied or read on the revivals. Revivals never have interested me. They're like hurricanes. They come with power and strength and then when they make landfall, they fall apart.
Revivals are a way for the Reformation (Protestantism) to "re-form" itself. Every generation or two a "new Moses" has had to rise up. Insert 'yawning' icon here. . .
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:41 PM   #53
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90 years ago, Dora Yu could be a lioness of the "early recovery" but today, when women can be President of the USA, they can't speak except "under the covering", i.e. abject servility. . . ? And don't tell me that Barber or Penn-Lewis had some male "covering" - they didn't.

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?
Here's the link to Dora Yu's Wikipedia web page. Most of the data comes from one of the LSM/lc senior brothers, Silas Wu, a close associate of Witness Lee since the initial 1950s mainland-to-Taiwan exodus, who eventually wrote a book on her (cited at the end of the page). She was Watchman Nee's "spiritual mother", who was his (and others') "mentor" in the "inner life" practices. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Yu

So how come Watchman Nee's female mentor got her own web page but today no women can minister in Nee's spin-off, the LSM/lc? Talk about Bizarro World.

https://www.amazon.com/Dora-Christia.../dp/0970341229

The whole thing only has logical coherence if you see that it was always about power - temporal, earthly power - the acquisition and maintenance of fallen, fleshly human-centric power systems. In this light, women were initially expedient to the cause, necessary even, but once they were no longer needed they were put back down, "in their place". Shades of 1984 - "Four legs good, two legs even better!!!"
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:10 PM   #54
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But if you read anything by Nee or Lee you read theology heavily indebted to them. For example, Nee's first book, "Spiritual Man", was simply JP Lewis plagiarized. Later editions of the book had to acknowledge what the first did not. Both Nee & Lee plagiarized others' work, including women, and passed it off as their own.

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .
Who knows??? It's part of the mystery! even Benny Hinn was mentored by a woman Kathryn Kuhlman! Not that there's anything wrong with having a woman in Christ mentoring a man or men.. it's just that these men have / had some serious flaws in their relationships with women!! What's up with that??

Ya know.. In the LC I had all those books by Nee and Lee. Truth be told I could never get into them!


Anyway.. I read the life study messages and from my recollection Genesis and John's were my favorites. I don't know how I'd feel about them now if I read through them.

Of course, my tenure in the LC was short lived so I did not continue reading the messages.

I do remember when I first started getting back to the LORD and I read something in my KJ or NASB I did not understand, I would check my LR recovery version for clarification. (Reminds me of a time I engaged in a conversation with a couple of Mormon missionaries. I had my KJ bible with me to show them scriptures. I already knew wayyyy in advance that is the bible they use even though they buy theirs in the ward. They did not know I had a KJ but quickly checked to see what translation I was using. If it had been a different translation they would have argued I was using a false translation.)

Anywho...SEE how difficult it is for the LC spirit to get out of you ?!! I left the LC physically around 1978/79 and here it was 2005 and I'm referencing the footnotes in the recovery version! That spirit of manipulation that there is 'nothing better out there in poor, poor Christianity' still haunted me.

Thank God for the many great teachers He has anointed to help me get out of the LC mindset and for the internet and you tube.

Of course not every earthly 'teacher' is anointed and not everything on the internet or you tube is Truth in the matters of the Word of God. We need the Spirit of discernment.

Most of all I give ALL THANKS TO THE GREAT TEACHER HIMSELF, The Holy Spirit of Jesus and God the Father. He is the greatest TEACHER!!

Quote:
the Blendeds are peas in the Lee Pod. Current Ministry Mouthpiece RK once told us, "Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". I was aghast.
I guess he forgot God's Word says each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Quote:
I mean, I was pretty 'conservative' socially but that was waaaaay over the top. The meeting sat there silently, and he went on.
Yep.. the spirit of control was at work in the blendeds....still is. And btw.. do you see the 'transfer of spirits' at work here? The spirit of control that was on Lee was transferred to the blendeds. There is nothing wrong about the transfer of spirits if the transfer is Godly. Elijah transferred the spirit of his anointing to Elisha.

2 kings 2:9
When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” 10 He said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.”

vs 15
Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.”

Satan of course likes to copy God as an evil counterfeit.

Quote:
We all should have gotten up and walked out. I should have. But I was intimidated by the Hive Mind and the Power of the Maximum Brother.
But eventually you followed the Spirit and left. He gave you the strength, courage and Light to leave. Praise be to the Lord.

Quote:
Revivals are a way for the Reformation (Protestantism) to "re-form" itself. Every generation or two a "new Moses" has had to rise up. Insert 'yawning' icon here. . .


Yeah.. they like to think they are imitating the Pentecost event in Acts 1

Hey.. thanks for responding!

Shalom be with us all until we arrive !
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:30 PM   #55
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Look, if this forum is only for Christians, I am fine respecting that. But I would appreciate some open, explicit clarity on that, as I have not been able to find a thorough description anywhere, nor have I been able to find a list of rules, if there is one.
Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those very Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

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Old 11-16-2017, 05:16 PM   #56
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So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .
And then to think that Lee and the Blendeds would actually consider a Catholic sister -- Madame Jeanne Guyon -- was the MOTA for the entire 17th Century "age."

They have gone on record claiming that "in the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon."

Now, please note that I am in no way demeaning Guyon's reputation, maturity, or status in the body of Christ, but for Lee and LSM to elevate her operation in the body as the Apostle Paul is shear lunacy.

Hard to believe folks, but they do!
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:44 PM   #57
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for Lee and LSM to elevate her [Madame Guyon] operation in the body
Meanwhile a 21st-century sister can't give a 20-minute talk on the Sunday morning meeting in the Church in Duluth. Because she's a woman, is why. Eve was deceived before Adam. Paul said so.

Yet Mme Guyon was de facto 17th-century MOTA, and 20th-century Nee was trained by several uppity women who thought they had some kind of spirituality. Forsooth. . .
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Old 11-17-2017, 05:35 AM   #58
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What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:50 AM   #59
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What is MOTA?
Minister of the Age, title given to Witness Lee.

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Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon?
Look here: LSM article

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That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.
Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

Apparently what Barber "recovered" was a pattern of "perfecting" brothers by harsh rebukes and public humiliations.
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WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.
WL had a history of failed businesses which cost the church dearly.

His sons were prodigals who hurt many. Witness covered up their sins.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:43 AM   #60
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Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.
What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:44 AM   #61
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What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?
The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:43 AM   #62
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Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #63
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What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?
I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.
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Old 11-17-2017, 01:16 PM   #64
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.
Between Darby and Nee, there was the need of another MOTA.

None of Darby's successors would do, so they looked elsewhere.

Since Barber had forsaken the denominations (well maybe not, but the Anglicans apparently dumped her), she became instantly qualified, having "perfected" Nee.
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Old 11-17-2017, 01:20 PM   #65
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I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.
Be that as it may, the fact remains that "recovery women" in 1927 were suffered to teach, and in 2017 they're not. Put differently, recovery women in 1927 eventually got LSM/lc-fueled internet panegyrics extolling their spirituality and women of 2017 do not, nor will they ever.

Something happened in the intervening 90 years to bring about the sea change.

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The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.
The juxtaposition of the positive history against the negative present of condemnation and repression could hardly be more striking. All these women from the past getting their web pages and even published biographies extolling their spiritual virtues, while current members are supposed to disappear in the faceless proletariat. Whatever you do, don't be noticed; don't stand out. Don't have an individual or unique voice or a face - if you get noted in the LSM/lc today it's because you're near to the burning - to a "sister's rebellion" or some such. Better to hide in the proletariat - be a ''small potato".
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Old 11-17-2017, 01:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.
Great point about understanding the context of scriptures.

Reminds me about how Hebrews 10.25-26 is misinterpreted to imply that missing meetings will send you to hell. I grew up in the RCC with that dreaded guillotine swinging over my head..
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Old 11-17-2017, 07:53 PM   #67
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What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.
Unregistered I just have to tell you I really enjoyed your brief paragraph. It was concise and yet loaded.

Hey, it's quite possible that Nee picked up his sexual loosey-goosey side from Barber. Then it was exposed by his confession to over 2500 in Shanghai, where Lee's sons had to pickup on it, and so carried on that side of Nee's legacy.

And Lee, who was completely use to covering up for Nees' sins (rape and brothels), found it business as usual to cover up for his son's sins.

Thanks, whoever you are, for your contribution. Hope to hear more from you ... and hope you join us.

Oh, and welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM   #68
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BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well I've resolved to do what I suggested everyone here do and see if I can BEHAVE myself. :P


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Hi Mysteria,

I'm so proud to say that I appreciated your "huevos" reference. I read it and thought, "I wonder if she meant to say...ohhhhhhh, I see what she did there!" Glad to have your voice and perspective here. Reminds me to be a participant rather than just a lurker.
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Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM   #69
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I agree whole heartedly with the spirit of your message, and that's the important thing.

Nitpickingly:

- I'm not an athiest; I'm a polythiest pagan.

- I suggest always keeping in mind who gets to tell the story, and who gets to spin it, especially when it comes to stories about women, and especially stories about women in power. Think about it. Did SHE think her gods were false? How do we know she WASN'T a prophetess? She wouldn't be the first to be denied by others because they have different beliefs and assume they are right. And really, she "made him weak?" As you pointed out, he made a choice. No one makes someone else weak. You're weak or you aren't. And at any given time any of us can be either weak or strong. A true leader does not blame someone else for making them weak. That excuse has been used against women for so much of human history it's not even funny.

But aside from that...lol the thing about stories is, as I said, the message is the truth. Though I'd tell that story differently, I still recognize the truth in the message.



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I am so happy you realized the LR became (maybe always was??) a manipulative system, directed and controlled by the spirit of Jezebel. Isn't it interesting (at least it is for me) in retrospect, the similarities between Lee and the pope? The RCC claims it is the one true church. The LR claims it is 'the church'. The RCC has parishes. Everywhere you go to mass in any part of the world, you recognize it as the RCC. Anywhere around the world you attend an LSM meeting, you recognize it as such and feel right at home (mostly) just as a Catholic living in the U.S. but goes to mass in Africa will feel right at home.

It's no wonder the spirit of Jezebel infiltrated the LC.
I often think of the LC in Revelation 2 when the Lord is reprimanding the church in Ephesis. They had everything going for them but lost their first LOVE. IS THERE ANY LOVE IN THE LR???

Then read what the Lord says to Thyatira...
I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray

Isn't it sad and true that many people who have left the LR don't want to have anything to do with God? But in time, people like you and me were, will be drawn back to our Father because His Love for us pulls us back to HIM.

In 1 kings, Jezebel was a pagan who worshipped false gods and idols. (no offense to the atheists who refer to themselves as pagans reading this post).

You know that Ahab, a Jewish king married Jezebel, not only a non Jewish woman but a pretty wicked, evil and controlling person. She weakened Ahab and made him afraid. That fear and his weak soul empowered her to control him. But remember Ahab DISOBEYED GOD by marrying a pagan woman in the first place! So you boys --- don't go blaming the woman for being controlling and manipulative!

That spirit of domination, controlling, manipulation, power can and has grabbed hold of both men and women's hearts throughout all history. Why have children been terrified of telling an adult of sexual or emotional abuse? They are intimidated by power. (ungodly power). Who controls this world, the banking system, the corporations, the mafia, religion institutions? MEN! The spirit of Jezebel has possessed MEN in power: The Pope is a man as are his minions. The Rothschilds, the Astors, etc.. men... oh you have women in power too, the queen of England for one.



Nor is it God's plan for anyone to be 'in church'. We are to be IN CHRIST. And that's why I don't go 'to church'. 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!' Revelation 18.

We have all been taught that believers are 'the church'. Yet are forced to 'go to church'.

We are supposed to encourage, exhort, uplift and build up one another in the Lord.

Where does it say we need to be going 'to church' to do that? But don't tell the 'churchers' you don't go to church! They will you for not going! Churchers pluck my last nerve! That said, for many who only knew the LR, going to 'church' can be good... part of the healing process.

It took me a long time to go 'to church' after leaving the LC but I needed that for a season. Partly for healing and partly for learning. Glad the Lord took me out of there too.

Shalom everyone!
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Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM   #70
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That's okay, UntoHim. If what you're telling me is what the "majority" viewpoint is, and not a rule, that's fine. I will use the Alt space for more in depth explanations at some point...and only because people have inquired.

Otherwise I'm just happy to be able to claim my space among other people who had their own journeys out of the LC. Several people have demonstrated here that they are open-minded and humble toward others, also, for which I'm very thankful.


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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those very Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

UntoHim

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Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM   #71
Mysteria
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 22
Default Re: Can I be candid?

I don't know how to do this formatting yet. Sorry!

I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.


Now that I think about it, and I can't believe I missed this, but I'm wondering why SHOULD you or anyone else automatically understand neo-pagan to have anything to do with the pagan gods? For the sake of PR mainly (and by PR, I mean not being burned at the stake or having their reputations ruined by fear) the neo-pagan movement has emphasized connection with the natural world. So I can see that my assumption might not have been as obvious as I thought it was.

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

yes that's fair! Yeah. I chalk this up a lot to the conditioning of fear, speaking from my own experience (which may not be wholely representative). I'll get into that later when I tell my story, which I'll probably do on the Alt views section at some point. But if there is one spiritual truth I have learned, regardless of belief system, it is the power of fear and its capacity to BE the evil it claims to be afraid of. The fear of making a mistake. The fear of being lost, somehow, of falling over some invisible edge past being rescued, because you were too stupid, and of COURSE you shouldn't have trusted yourself to know right from wrong.

I WAS that Christian who fantasized about being in spiritual warfare with people minding their own business. And I was incapacitated by fear to the point that it was difficult to enter adulthood, where you have to make choices, and no one can make them for you. I saw how crippled I was by fear.

I got tired. I was still afraid, but I was more tired by then. I realized I had to know. I had to know what I didn't know, and stop guessing or taking other peoples' word for everything. So I decided to look into the darkness (meaning the scary unknown) as it were, and face it, whatever it was. Lo and behold, not scary at all. Not nearly as scary as what fear makes people do, nor as scary as realizing no one is responsible for your life, but yourself, and you as a human being have great power and potential without necessarily certainty of wisdom to use it.

I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Impossible. I guess I know what that is like. This will be good practice for me in patience.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

*warm fuzzy* From what I hear, if you made it here, I should be okay?!


If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.[/I]


Agent of chaos! :P Anger has helped me out a lot in life. But I'm at a point where I don't want to be ruled by it. If you or anyone else makes me angry, that's a choice I made....at least in part!

Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

It does, but here's what you have to understand, if you can. It might make more sense when I get around to telling my story from beginning to end. To me, my polythiestic, animist way of looking at God and all creation is simply the other side of a mirror. I experienced all I could with monotheism. I couldn't squeeze out more. I HAD to go another way to continue my relationship with God (the divine or sacred by whatever name you know it), so I challenged myself.

And again, it's not like I intended to. I literally outgrew Christianity. I couldn't stay there. I see my change in religion as a rites of passage, the kind you can't stop. Sooner or later, everyone grows up. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Sooner or later, we all have to face the mysterious and find our own answers. So I did. And it took a while, but I never once have felt my relationship with God interrupted. I was very fortunate to have a good model in my mother, and my parents in general, who taught me early on that everyone has a conscience.

And she taught me the importance of hearing wisdom intuitively, "God's voice" if you will, and being able to know that rather than depending on what other people demand that it is. She would say to me, "There comes a time when every Christian has to walk alone." By that she meant that God's plan for each person is not ever going to make 100% sense to anyone else who isn't that person. So you have to learn to trust yourself, and your relationship with God.

This is just one of many spiritual truths that I learned as a Christian, that still serve me and feel like universal truths. It has saved me a lot of heartache and further prolonged abuse that I could have experienced, even by well meaning people.

I've also been able to wrestle with things as a pagan that I am pretty sure I would have had to wrestle with Christianity. I didn't just get to leave behind everything I didn't like. It was nice and a reprieve to live in a world that was not defined by or did not depend on Christianity, either positively or negatively. To live a reality where it was pretty much irrelevant. It's so influential in the world that you don't even have to be a Christian to be affected by the way it has shaped our culture and world history.

Even a Satanist only makes sense in the context of the Christian worldview, and they fully acknowledge this, which is why to them Satan is a symbol and they are actually mostly athiest. Their religion is literally a reaction against another.

When Christianity defines EVERYthing it relation to it, it is hard to get at the real meaning of things, to see things purely. You can't fit things into a world view that don't belong there. But whether people want to believe it or not, it was never the only path to God, and it is not now. It was once the shiny new thing. But it's truths weren't. The sacred wasn't. It's there as it is everywhere else when you're looking.

And sometimes a person needs a break. Sometimes it helps to see things from a different point of view. I have actually come to appreciate some things about the Bible and Christian spirituality a tad more SINCE I've become a pagan. That's because I have a better understanding of the symbols, language, and cultural background, which I wanted to have as a Christian anyway. There are parts that still resonate with me, and they mean more to me for that timelessness.

And now they stand out very clearly against the silliness that people tack on around them and obscure them with. It's like someone else here said a bit ago: Truth is truth. To that person, they have only one truth, and there are no others that can be real. To me, our truth is the same. I don't need mine to be the only way for it to have the power it does.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent to your question; it is hard to get into the connections that I make differently. They're very personal, and I don't really want to necessarily hang them in the open to be disrespected or belittled. Pearls before swine and all that. (Pigs are smart so that's not an insult. It's just that they have little use for pearls!)

I suppose at some point it's better to do less talking and more getting to know people. I can't think of any argument that is stronger than relationship.

Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.[/I]

That is awesome of you to say! Likewise.

And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.


Oh, we're honored now?! *puffs chest proudly*
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM   #72
awareness
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,890
Default Re: Can I be candid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria View Post
I don't know how to do this formatting yet. Sorry!

I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.


Now that I think about it, and I can't believe I missed this, but I'm wondering why SHOULD you or anyone else automatically understand neo-pagan to have anything to do with the pagan gods? For the sake of PR mainly (and by PR, I mean not being burned at the stake or having their reputations ruined by fear) the neo-pagan movement has emphasized connection with the natural world. So I can see that my assumption might not have been as obvious as I thought it was.

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

yes that's fair! Yeah. I chalk this up a lot to the conditioning of fear. I'll get into that later when I tell my story, which I'll probably do on the Alt views section at some point. But if there is one spiritual truth I have learned, regardless of belief system, it is the power of fear and its capacity to BE the evil it claims to be afraid of. The fear of making a mistake. The fear of being lost, somehow, of falling over some invisible edge past being rescued, because you were too stupid, and of COURSE you shouldn't have trusted yourself to know right from wrong.

I WAS that Christian who fantasized about being in spiritual warfare with people minding their own business. And I was incapacitated by fear to the point that it was difficult to enter adulthood, where you have to make choices, and no one can make them for you. I saw how crippled I was by fear.

I got tired. I was still afraid, but I was more tired by then. I realized I had to know. I had to know what I didn't know, and stop guessing or taking other peoples' word for everything. So I decided to look into the darkness (meaning the scary unknown) as it were, and face it, whatever it was. Lo and behold, not scary at all. Not nearly as scary as what fear makes people do, nor as scary as realizing no one is responsible for your life, but yourself, and you as a human being have great power and potential without necessarily certainty of wisdom to use it.

I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Impossible. I guess I know what that is like. This will be good practice for me in patience.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

*warm fuzzy* From what I hear, if you made it here, I should be okay?!


If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.[/I]


Agent of chaos! :P Anger has helped me out a lot in life. But I'm at a point where I don't want to be ruled by it. If you or anyone else makes me angry, that's a choice I made....at least in part!

Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

It does, but here's what you have to understand, if you can. It might make more sense when I get around to telling my story from beginning to end. To me, my polythiestic, animist way of looking at God and all creation is simply the other side of a mirror. I experienced all I could with monotheism. I couldn't squeeze out more. I HAD to go another way to continue my relationship with God (the divine or sacred by whatever name you know it), so I challenged myself.

And again, it's not like I intended to. I literally outgrew Christianity. I couldn't stay there. I see my change in religion as a rites of passage, the kind you can't stop. Sooner or later, everyone grows up. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Sooner or later, we all have to face the mysterious and find our own answers. So I did. And it took a while, but I never once have felt my relationship with God interrupted. I was very fortunate to have a good model in my mother, and my parents in general, who taught me early on that everyone has a conscience.

And she taught me the importance of hearing wisdom intuitively, "God's voice" if you will, and being able to know that rather than depending on what other people demand that it is. She would say to me, "There comes a time when every Christian has to walk alone." By that she meant that God's plan for each person is not ever going to make 100% sense to anyone else who isn't that person. So you have to learn to trust yourself, and your relationship with God.

This is just one of many spiritual truths that I learned as a Christian, that still serve me and feel like universal truths. It has saved me a lot of heartache and further prolonged abuse that I could have experienced, even by well meaning people.

I've also been able to wrestle with things as a pagan that I am pretty sure I would have had to wrestle with Christianity. I didn't just get to leave behind everything I didn't like. It was nice and a reprieve to live in a world that was not defined by or did not depend on Christianity, either positively or negatively. To live a reality where it was pretty much irrelevant. It's so influential in the world that you don't even have to be a Christian to be affected by the way it has shaped our culture and world history.

Even a Satanist only makes sense in the context of the Christian worldview, and they fully acknowledge this, which is why to them Satan is a symbol and they are actually mostly athiest. Their religion is literally a reaction against another.

When Christianity defines EVERYthing it relation to it, it is hard to get at the real meaning of things, to see things purely. You can't fit things into a world view that don't belong there. But whether people want to believe it or not, it was never the only path to God, and it is not now. It was once the shiny new thing. But it's truths weren't. The sacred wasn't. It's there as it is everywhere else when you're looking.

And sometimes a person needs a break. Sometimes it helps to see things from a different point of view. I have actually come to appreciate some things about the Bible and Christian spirituality a tad more SINCE I've become a pagan. That's because I have a better understanding of the symbols, language, and cultural background, which I wanted to have as a Christian anyway. There are parts that still resonate with me, and they mean more to me for that timelessness.

And now they stand out very clearly against the silliness that people tack on around them and obscure them with. It's like someone else here said a bit ago: Truth is truth. To that person, they have only one truth, and there are no others that can be real. To me, our truth is the same. I don't need mine to be the only way for it to have the power it does.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent to your question; it is hard to get into the connections that I make differently. They're very personal, and I don't really want to necessarily hang them in the open to be disrespected or belittled. Pearls before swine and all that. (Pigs are smart so that's not an insult. It's just that they have little use for pearls!)

I suppose at some point it's better to do less talking and more getting to know people. I can't think of any argument that is stronger than relationship.

Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.[/I]

That is awesome of you to say! Likewise.

And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.


Oh, we're honored now?! *puffs chest proudly*
Mysteria, your posts are fresh, and refreshing. And what you share makes for much heart felt thought, and insights.

You leave me much to digest, so give me time. But I'm so happy for you. I'm actually envious of your freedom ... and your gift of articulation. You're a gem Mysteria.

More on this after your post marinates for awhile.

Thanks much for sharing. I was afraid we chased you off. Glad to see not.
__________________
There's enough religion in the world for people to hate each other. But not enough for people to love each other. There's a serpent in every paradise. "If Christianity is going to survive in the 21st century . . . it must learn to laugh at itself." -Rene Girard
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Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM   #73
countmeworthy
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,068
Default Re: Can I be candid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria View Post
I agree whole heartedly with the spirit of your message, and that's the important thing.

Nitpickingly:

- I'm not an athiest; I'm a polythiest pagan.
Do you practice Wiccan ? Or worship gods like the Egyptians? Do you worship Allah? Who do you 'credit' or 'blame' evil? Where does it initiate from your perspective?

Not being critical or judgmental... just curious who and what your worship since you are a polythiest pagan.

Quote:
- I suggest always keeping in mind who gets to tell the story, and who gets to spin it, especially when it comes to stories about women, and especially stories about women in power. Think about it. Did SHE think her gods were false? How do we know she WASN'T a prophetess?
You have to read the entire account for yourself and derive the spiritual significance of the account not just the historical aspect. In this world there are very powerful, controlling, manuplative people in both the religious and secular realms.. politics, corporations, religious institutions, relationships. Just take a look at the headlines in the last month or so!! All these powerful men (mostly) who intimidated young boys/girls..young women in Hollywood and elsewhere.

Quote:
and really, she "made him weak?" As you pointed out, he made a choice. No one makes someone else weak.
Again.. you have to read the entire account for yourself. And yes.. controlling, manipulative people can weaken strong people. Egypt, Greece, Rome were once very powerful nations.. and they came crumbling down when they were weakened.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a spiritual person to see that !! Also, many of the 'powerful' women in Hollywood today are coming out stating that when they were young, these powerful moguls sexually harassed them, intimated them, groped them, raped them and were threatened if they said anything to anyone. Pedophilia is rampant in Hollywood. Are the children that have been violated weak because they did not say anything?

But many like Angelina Jolie who claimed she was sexually harassed at 16 yrs old is now a powerful, successful Hollywood elite herself! And I'm sure she has controlled, manipulated people herself!

Quote:
A true leader does not blame someone else for making them weak.
In the case of Jezebel and Ahab, I never said he was a true leader. He was not from the get go!
Just because a person has a high political or religious position does not make them true leaders.

Quote:
Though I'd tell that story differently, I still recognize the truth in the message.
Thank you for reading my explanation.
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
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Old Yesterday, 03:41 PM   #74
Mysteria
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 22
Default Re: Can I be candid?

EDIT: Okay, I've answered your question in my intro thread in Alt Views called "Ask a Pagan a Question."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I'm going to create a new thread to continue this conversation, especially the questions you asked.

But before I get my thoughts together to do that: Ur SMART!

LOL

I can't actually disagree with anything you've said.




Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Do you practice Wiccan ? Or worship gods like the Egyptians? Do you worship Allah? Who do you 'credit' or 'blame' evil? Where does it initiate from your perspective?

Not being critical or judgmental... just curious who and what your worship since you are a polythiest pagan.



You have to read the entire account for yourself and derive the spiritual significance of the account not just the historical aspect. In this world there are very powerful, controlling, manuplative people in both the religious and secular realms.. politics, corporations, religious institutions, relationships. Just take a look at the headlines in the last month or so!! All these powerful men (mostly) who intimidated young boys/girls..young women in Hollywood and elsewhere.



Again.. you have to read the entire account for yourself. And yes.. controlling, manipulative people can weaken strong people. Egypt, Greece, Rome were once very powerful nations.. and they came crumbling down when they were weakened.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a spiritual person to see that !! Also, many of the 'powerful' women in Hollywood today are coming out stating that when they were young, these powerful moguls sexually harassed them, intimated them, groped them, raped them and were threatened if they said anything to anyone. Pedophilia is rampant in Hollywood. Are the children that have been violated weak because they did not say anything?

But many like Angelina Jolie who claimed she was sexually harassed at 16 yrs old is now a powerful, successful Hollywood elite herself! And I'm sure she has controlled, manipulated people herself!



In the case of Jezebel and Ahab, I never said he was a true leader. He was not from the get go!
Just because a person has a high political or religious position does not make them true leaders.



Thank you for reading my explanation.
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Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM   #75
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,068
Default Re: Can I be candid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteria View Post
EDIT: Okay, I've answered your question in my intro thread in Alt Views called "Ask a Pagan a Question."
Thanks!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I'm going to create a new thread to continue this conversation, especially the questions you asked.

Quote:
But before I get my thoughts together to do that: Ur SMART!

LOL

I can't actually disagree with anything you've said.
Why Thank You! This forum does not give out compliments!! Especially to women! Let's hear it for girl power ! JUST KIDDING FOLKS!
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
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