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Old 03-22-2009, 04:47 AM   #1
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Default Questions about Daystar

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
UntoHim, did you get a new car with your tax refund?
I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting. That is awesome.

Reminds me of "The Planet Killer" from Star Trek.
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

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I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting.
Maybe we could superimpose the LSM logo onto the Daystar grill and sell T-shirts at the next training ... color coordinated with the "god-man" socks, of course.

Here's a link for the last remaining Daystar collectible:

http://www.allmanufacturedhomes.com/...75_daystar.htm
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is an "Appeal to Caesar" Really the Scriptural "Second Principle"??

This is off topic and irrelevant.

But nonetheless this was the first question which popped into my head when I heard about daystar.

Daystar = Lucifer. therefore is another name for Satan.

ergo, out of all the names which you could have for your christian business why would you choose daystar. I mean sure maybe the business was called that beforehand but irregardless why would you want to keep that name.

I also find it strange that there is a christian tv network named daystar for that matter.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is an "Appeal to Caesar" Really the Scriptural "Second Principle"??

IDon'tKnow,
I've always assumed that this is where the term "day star" comes from:


2Peter 1:19 (KJV)
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" (most modern versions have it as "morning star")




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Old 03-22-2009, 09:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

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Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting. That is awesome.

Reminds me of "The Planet Killer" from Star Trek.

Yes, it's intimidating, isn't it? When you're driving down the highway, and glance back and see that starburst grill getting larger in your rear view mirror surely you're going to yield! Like before an LSM lawsuit!
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm
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Old 03-23-2009, 04:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Maybe we could superimpose the LSM logo onto the Daystar grill and sell T-shirts at the next training ... color coordinated with the "god-man" socks, of course.

Here's a link for the last remaining Daystar collectible:

http://www.allmanufacturedhomes.com/...75_daystar.htm
They could only have even considered, much less executed, that grill design in the 1970s in California.

Clearly the work product of deluded dreamers.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm
The caption from the "Old and Unusual Motorhomes" website says this:

Quote:
This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?
I nominate the Daystar for the Motor Home Hall of Fame.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:55 AM   #9
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Default Questions about Daystar

In the tape recording between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee about Daystar debts.

1. That Overseas Christian Stewards an unregistered entity owned Phosphorous, I.E. the Overseas Christian Stewards which was composed of Witness Lee and two other brothers owned Phosphorous personally.

2. Phosphorous produced the Daystar motorhomes and sold them to Daystar. So when Witness Lee got the saints to invest in Daystar he was investing in a guaranteed buyer for his motorhomes.

3. Daystar went bankrupt, Phosphorous did not.

4. Daystar owed Phosphorous money (according to Witness Lee).

5. Witness Lee got Max to convince the saints to forgive the Daystar debts.

First question does the fact that Daystar still owed Phosphorous money mean that Witness Lee required the money owed to him by Daystar even after he convinced the saints to forgive those debts?

Second question given that donations from the trainings went to pay off Daystar debts. Does that mean that they went to pay off Phosphorous (I.E. Witness Lee)?

Third question, It is my understanding that the Daystar motorhomes were being sold by saints through door to door sales (I.E. using free labour). It is also my further guess that the capital for such a business would primarily be tied up in the motorhomes on hand. Therefore any debts which the company had would in all likelihood have been for the purpose of buying Motorhomes off Witness Lee. Furthermore the majority of the saints money which was invested into the business would also have gone to buy Motorhomes off Witness Lee. Therefore all (or most) moneys from Daystar would have gone to Witness Lee, K.H. Weigh, and Samuel Chang (The owners of Overseas Christian Stewards as well Phosphorous). Less the expenses for the actual construction of the motorhomes. Does this mean that Witness Lee made off with all the Daystar money?

Does this make any sense or am I merely frothing at the mouth.

Here is link to a diagram which illustrates what happened with the money (not made by me just to be clear) http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

Gotta love this one:



Her: "Uh, no dear. Only one of us can fit at a time. Anyway, you have to drive."

Him: "But this is the way to the driver's seat."
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Don Hardy, who was treasurer for Daystar in SoCal, resigned his position with the business when he realized that he was assisting in illegal operations, with money laundering schemes.

Don Rutledge, while elder in Dallas, accidentally learned that LSM had set up a secret church account under the name of the Church in Dallas in order to funnel moneys to those investors who made enough noise, and threatened to "blow the whistle" on WL.
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Old 03-24-2009, 06:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Ohio,

I know it's not like you to spread rumors. Did you hear this firsthand?


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Old 03-24-2009, 12:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

I read their accounts.

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Old 03-24-2009, 01:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Thanks for the clarification.

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Old 03-24-2009, 02:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

IDontKnow you forgot to ask about the lady church members they asked to pose in bikinis to make advertising materials to sell the Daystar.

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Old 03-24-2009, 06:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

I have a few more question. The investment by the saints in the Daystar business was this to be considered as a loan to Daystar or to be for the purchase of shares in the Company. I ask this because as far as I'm aware if somebody owns shares in a company if that company goes bankrupt, getting your money back is not really on the cards. All your entitled to is a share of what's left over when all the debts are paid off if their is anything. That said I'm getting the impression that Daystar never actually went bankrupt.

Quote:
SB: And so then when Daystar went bankrupt ....
WL: Stopped, stopped

From transcript of Sal Benoit, Witness Lee conversation.
It seems it just stopped. Which begs more questions. Was their a reason why they could not let Daystar go bankrupt. Would it be detrimental to certain people if the accounts were able to be scrutinized by Third Parties as they undeniably would have been had the company gone bankrupt. According to Don Hardy testimony that would seem to be the case.

Secondly, after this Phosphorous definitely went on to make tennis rackets according to the recording, and at least according to another testimony by Brent Barber these tennis racquets were to be sold by saints. (I'm not certain whether the saints were supposed to invest in the racquets or not, does anyone know how daystaresque the tennis racquet scheme and future schemes were). So did Witness Lee learn anything from Daystar. After all the damage done with this first failed business scheme (actually according to reports from taiwan it would seem that this wasn't the first), he still continued.

Just to clarify, I personally at this point do not believe that Witness was deliberately setting out to fleece the saints. I do believe however that he made some horrendously bad decisions which he seems to have failed to take the lesson from. Such a failure should have truly caused him to question his own infallability and caused him to be more open to see that he truly needed the balancing of other members of the Body. Not just those who agreed with his every word.
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Old 03-24-2009, 07:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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I personally at this point do not believe that Witness was deliberately setting out to fleece the saints. I do believe however that he made some horrendously bad decisions which he seems to have failed to take the lesson from. Such a failure should have truly caused him to question his own infallability and caused him to be more open to see that he truly needed the balancing of other members of the Body. Not just those who agreed with his every word.
Yes, I agree. We all make bad decisions from time to time. You have, I have; we all have occasionally. Hopefully we make them less as we age. That is my goal, anyway. But we still err, occasionally, which is why the counsel of others is indispensible. To do away with the balancing words of other christian brethren would be arrogant, and folly. May God have mercy on us all!

There are 3 verses in Proverbs, which I had here on my "byline" when I began posting. Eventually I got bored with them and changed them, so I can't tell you chapter and verse. But all 3 verses said the same thing: "With a multitude of counselors there is safety". The Lee camp seem to have decided that infallibility came with highly developed doctrines. I myself coming into the LCs was impressed with "The Oracle in Anaheim", but eventually I read about Daystar and other bad decisions and I realized, belatedly, that I'd been had.

No more hero worship for me! Jesus only!
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Old 03-24-2009, 08:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

I have a question in to Don Hardy about post 15 and 16. The bikini story is something I could hardly believe, but seems it was true from what I have previously heard.

One sister that I heard was involved is, and was, a very saintly sister and, frankly, one of the most attractive and voluptuous women I had ever seen, when I first saw her in the late seventies. She would be someone you would want to hide or cover up, not put on display.

When I met with Max Rapoport in Dec 2001, he was remorseful over his experience with Daystar, especially having cooperated with WL to ask the elders to encourage the saints to waive any reimbursement by WL. He was deeply regretful. There was so much hype that this venture was of God, and so many saints lost money, that it seemed appropriate that reimbursements were in order. This, at least, is my understanding.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

All sorts of cute and probably inappropriate comments are coming to mind, but I'll just wonder aloud...

If they wanted girls in bikinis why didn't they just hire models?

As Alice said, it just gets curiouser and curiouser... :justlurking:
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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If they wanted girls in bikinis why didn't they just hire models?
I don't have any special insight into this. But if I were to guess I would have to say probably because you have to pay models.
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:34 PM   #21
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

When you consider what else was going on, trying to convince lady church members to pose in bikinis for "God's move on the earth" seems mild in comparison.

And by the way I am not being prudish on this issue. Even the whole investment idea doesn't bother me. What is disconcerting is that it was all cloaked in false "spirituality". Why not just say: "This is strictly business. Your investment is at risk. You may lose it all. Can you afford to do that? If not you shouldn't invest." About the women how's this: "We are a business and we know sex sells. So we want to hire you to be models to stand next to the mobile home and will pay you the going rate." Then there is clarity and people can know what they are saying yes or no to.

But instead they have to disguise it all with their trademark god-talk. And base the whole thing on superstition instead of business reality i.e. "God is going to specially bless us. Why? Just because it's us!"
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Old 03-25-2009, 08:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Does anyone know the names of the recruiters ? There should be a public record of this.
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Old 03-25-2009, 09:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: UntoHim's new pic

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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm
Quote from this site:
"Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

If only they knew.
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:45 AM   #24
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I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now. Rather than repenting for daystar Witness Lee and many of the leading brothers instead chose to use fleshly means to deal with the fallout. (The doing of at least borderline illegal things funnelling money into daystar constitutes fleshly and if your doing such things to deal with the fallout of your wrong doing you obviously haven't repented.)

Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.
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Old 03-26-2009, 05:30 AM   #25
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I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now.
Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?
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Old 03-26-2009, 06:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow View Post
Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.
The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Let us stand fast, therefore, and not be entangled again in the yoke of slavery." - Paul of Tarsus
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Old 03-26-2009, 07:17 AM   #27
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A lot of truth in this statement Aron.

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Old 03-26-2009, 09:05 AM   #28
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The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.
I wonder how much of that flowing of the Spirit was common to all God's children at that time, in the chaotic era of the late 60's - early 70's called "Jesus people movement." Somehow the LC leaders felt that the blessing was exclusive to us, since we were the unique testimony of God on earth.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:07 AM   #29
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The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar...We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one

Sorry guys, but the Local Church was never, ever any better then the "fallen Christianity" it claimed to be "recovered" from, otherwise Daystar would not have happened to begin with. As a matter of fact, we now know that this was not the first time that Witness Lee attempted to enrich himself and his sons through the fleecing of Local Church members.

We also know that Lee pulled the same shenanigans in the Far East, pilfering a number of LC members of their life savings, and now we know this is the reason that Lee decided to bless our fair land with his LC religion, and not because he cared so much for all us poor, poor blind and christless Americans.

So when discussing the Daystar debacle I think it is important to keep in mind that this was only one of many business "investment" boondoggles in which Local Churchers ended up taking a financial bath, while Lee and his sons escaped relatively unscathed.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind about how messed up and unethical the Daystar "business" was, they need to review this:

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

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Old 03-26-2009, 05:11 PM   #30
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I wonder how much of that flowing of the Spirit was common to all God's children at that time, in the chaotic era of the late 60's - early 70's called "Jesus people movement." Somehow the LC leaders felt that the blessing was exclusive to us, since we were the unique testimony of God on earth.
Good point. The whole movement of the Spirit among the young people, circa 1965 - 1975, was surely not limited to the LC, but they somehow felt it was theirs because of the "ground". This notion that the spiritual blessing was proprietary to the ground of oneness taken by the LC might have led to obstinacy in the face of said blessing being removed.

When I came in, the "golden days of yore" were a fairly common topic of conversation, with the usually implied corrolary that we needed to keep doing what we once did (again, the "ground") which ostensibly had led to the outpoured Spirit in the first place. A few unchallenged assumptions in this train of thought, to be sure.

I suppose we all have error-laced trains of thought. Perhaps what allowed this particular train to drive off the bridge was the insular nature of the group. Daystar came and went, and nobody could pull the brake handle. All anyone could do was jump off.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Sorry guys, but the Local Church was never, ever any better then the "fallen Christianity" it claimed to be "recovered" from, otherwise Daystar would not have happened to begin with. As a matter of fact, we now know that this was not the first time that Witness Lee attempted to enrich himself and his sons through the fleecing of Local Church members.
I doubt he was actively out to fleece the saints. If he was I'd have to think he wouldn't have let things get to the point where he had to use LSM money to pay off daystar's debts (unless of course daystar debts were overstated in order to provide a convenient method of funneling money into overseas christian stewards). That said you are correct in that it seems that daystar was not the first time he has done this, nor was it the last. Which would seem to lead to the inescapable conclusion that either he was out to fleece the saints or he was extremely hard of hearing.

Also on the subject of the LC during the 70's. I hear alternatively about how great it was and on the other hand I hear about parent's burning there children's baby pictures. What would be the fair and balanced view of the LC's in the 70's? In particular what was the retention rate of children from the LC compared to other church's from that time?
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

IDK,

A fair and balanced report of the 70s will be hard to come by. Each of us have perspectives, some of which will be contradictory with another’s. Since I “came in” to the LC in early 1973, I have some perspectives. Some of my view now is hindsight. But here goes.

In the 60s and 70s there were many groups that were breaking out of the standard modes of Christianity. There was an “inner life” movement, mostly in the form of people reading and listening to independent writers/speakers. There was a “charismatic” awakening going on that bled over into Baptist, Episcopal and even Catholic churches. (I recall hearing a nun making reference to the saved and unsaved priests. Interesting discussion!) By the late 70s, some of the mainstream churches were beginning to move out of the old ways, but it was still mostly within charismatic groups.

Without getting into the various peculiarities of the LC, it was mostly a group that was deep into “inner life” teachings without also having any charismatic component. But it also brought some forms that were appealing to those in Christianity that were tired of simply coming on Sundays and listening. The participative services were very appealing.

There was the form of looking at all of the scripture. (I say form because even though more than one passage was often used, the focus was still to make a point, and in hindsight I think that the inclusion of many verses from diverse places in scripture sometimes created the illusion of completeness more than any actual substance to support the positions taken.)

And these peculiar practices, like calling on the Lord, coupled with teachings that had us convinced that we were more “in spirit” than our counterparts in Christianity. Add the very community-oriented focus that put us together so much, and a sort of camaraderie was created that caused us to behave in certain ways when we were together. And it caused us to generally refrain from admitting that the rest of our lives were not consistent with this almost euphoric state we had in many meetings, unless the genre of the meeting was confessional in which case we would simply admit that our time outside of the meetings was never as good as in the meetings.

The result was a blind following. If we read where some group in Asia burned all of their occult books and things, someone would suggest that we should burn the things that stood between us and God. Since we often spoke in terms of Christ as our “first love” we would sometimes consider that any earthly love was Satanic. So if we wanted to prove our love for Christ, we would burn the things that reminded us of our tendency toward earthly loves. Unfortunately, this meant burning pictures of children and spouses. Several have testified of these. At the time we would never admit any misgivings.

But years later many have come to realize how crazy these things were. While it is true that our love for Christ must be first, that does not mean we despise everyone and everything else. At least one sister who has testified of this has also told of the problems she is now having with a daughter who was brought up in that environment.

When Jesus said we had to hate mother and brother and sister, he was not making a statement of absolutes, but using a descriptive device to emphasize position. Following Christ must be absolutely first. But it is not meant to be understood as our only love. Otherwise, we would have no way to love our neighbors as ourselves. Of course, that may explain why the LC tended to fail at loving anyone outside the LC since they actually hated anything about themselves except for the “Christ within each other.”

Last, Lee may not have been out to fleece the saints. But he was out to live off of them. And since his sons tended to be problems (and to be greedy), we had to cover for them as well. Before Daystar there were health supplements. There were also calendars. Since I left there was a cottage LSM industry of “ministry” artwork. My Dad’s house has a decent-sized study with two complete walls of bookshelves (almost all the way to the top of the 10 foot ceilings) and they are approximately 1/3 full of LSM materials. A lot of it is repetitious. That’s a lot of money for resources that only help make the reader proud of his knowledge of what Lee says (and not so much of what the scripture says).

So there are clearly two views, maybe more. There is the insider’s “everything is wonderful” view, and the former member’s view of “what the #*@^ were we doing?” And then there’s the question of what aspect you are looking at. When you look at the move away from the old-line Christian experience, there is much positive to see. But when you look at the peculiar teachings and practices that came along with it, there is much to lament.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:02 PM   #33
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In particular what was the retention rate of children from the LC compared to other church's from that time?
What is your angle? In order to answer your question, it depends on your perspective. In the 1970's I was a K-6th grade. At that age, if you keep the parents, you keep the children. When a child turns 18, they're no longer minors yet in many way; still children. As no longer a minor, do these fall under the retention rate you're asking about?

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Old 03-27-2009, 08:51 PM   #34
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What is your angle? In order to answer your question, it depends on your perspective. In the 1970's I was a K-6th grade. At that age, if you keep the parents, you keep the children. When a child turns 18, they're no longer minors yet in many way; still children. As no longer a minor, do these fall under the retention rate you're asking about?
Yes they were who I was talking about actually. How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible? I ask this because it seems that the true spiritual health of a group could quite possibly be measured by how the children react to it. If the majority find the need to escape then my guess is that group isn't that healthy. Even the apostle Paul linked how a man cares for his children with who should become an elder.

I guess on that note.This may be a low blow, but I know that Timothy and Philip Lee caused many problems in the church. Were there similar problems with the rest of Witness's children? Also what happened to Timothy after Daystar? Did he just sought off fall of the map?
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:50 PM   #35
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Yes they were who I was talking about actually. How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible?
Each locality is different. As each locality is different, there are different circumstances. It's a difficult question to measure. Consider this some young people remain because that's where their parents meet. Some young people remain because of a vision they see in the ministry. As to those that wanted to flee away, how many young people left because of the world. How many young people left because they followed their parents out due to "circumstances" in the local churches.
Speaking for myself, I'm one who left for a time. The Lord NEVER lets HIS children go. When I yearned for Christian fellowship, I returned to the local churches because that was my comfort zone.

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Old 03-28-2009, 05:54 AM   #36
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How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible? I ask this because it seems that the true spiritual health of a group could quite possibly be measured by how the children react to it.
This highlights perhaps the most tragic and exposing fact of the program. So many false promises were provided concerning our children, yet after all these years, we see generation after generation of our children up and leave, wanting nothing to do with the LC's. Of all the young people in our place, only one, IIRC, has remained with the program, and sadly with the recent quarantine, this one is on the LSM side.
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:37 AM   #37
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How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible?
I don't have numbers, and they vary by geographic region, but the simple answer to your question would clearly be "the vast majority". In those (non-LC) fellowships I've been meeting with that put families first, the majority of children remain to fellowship with the flock after they've grown. But put the "church" first, and the children flee. Duh.
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:27 AM   #38
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Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? I was on my way out of the LCs, and meeting with them very infrequently, when one day I stopped by and saw a video being shown. They were building a 50 story building in Teipei, and it had some name like "Lotus Flower" or "Nightingale" or something. Cultural, maybe. Here we call buildings "45 Washington Place" or such.

Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall. Probably a little word was passed to the effect that there was an "opportunity" for the saints to contribute to this project, but I was disinterested at this point and barely paying attention. I wonder how that one turned out? Part of the building was supposed to be for LSM (China) offices, and part was to be rented out, with the rent being used for some Godly work.

I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:48 AM   #39
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Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei?
The building project was completed. When the brothers spoke regarding this project, the base floor was for the ministry and the rest of the building would be leased out.

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Old 03-30-2009, 03:42 PM   #40
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Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall...I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...
Aron, sure I remember that. Isn't there a plaque in the lobby with a quote from WN about the word of God alone is our standard ... as you say, "Hmm ..."

Anyone else notice, that in so many ways, how LSM has condemned others, so they are guilty of the same ... just as the Scripture saith, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." --Rom 2.1
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:02 PM   #41
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Oh yeah.
I remember on the other forum seeing a thread about Daystar and LINKO. But Daystar was talked about on the thread pretty much to the exclusion of LINKO. All I know is that LINKO was a building project that was never constructed. When was LINKO? What was it meant to be for? Why wasn't it constructed? and where did the money go?
Does anybody know anything about LINKO?
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:31 PM   #42
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Oh yeah.
I remember on the other forum seeing a thread about Daystar and LINKO. But Daystar was talked about on the thread pretty much to the exclusion of LINKO. All I know is that LINKO was a building project that was never constructed. When was LINKO? What was it meant to be for? Why wasn't it constructed? and where did the money go? Does anybody know anything about LINKO?
I was in Irving (probably mid 80's) when they sprung that one. I was staying at the hall between meetings after lunch and the young people were writing rah, rah songs "Let's go Linko, Let's go Linko, yeah, yeah, yeah ..." I found it hard to believe, and strange to say the least, coming from the midwest. I remember thinking that these Texas saints really were as "absolute for the ministry," as had been rumored back in Ohio.

Linko was a property outside Taipei city limits where LSM planned to purchase land and build a civic arena auditorium which could hold all the saints at one time bussed in from all Taiwan. Who knows what happened. They never informed us. Where did the money go? Good question.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:22 AM   #43
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Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

I never supported this project and the young BBs promoted it as a means to humble the elders. Minuro gave a stirring speech at an elders coworkers meeting about how the elders would be blessed if they went to Linko and shoveled dirt. He promised that the Spirit would enliven you as you shoveled dirt and they would be greatly rewarded spiritually if they gave up being an elder and went to Linko to shovel dirt.

Just another boondoggle. Just another ridiculous project proposed by the office and the deputy authority. How things had changed!! Yet the Daystar fiasco was the beginning in the USA of one scheme after another which was divinely judged. We were very much like the nation of Israel. We had great victories and huge failures. Solomon built the temple and then his immorality and projects caused the nation to be divided. The Bible is faithful to record both the victories and blessings and the defeats and failures. But there is hope. The Lord is never defeated. God is faithful. What He has promised He will do. The Lord has won the victory.

I really like Rom 4:19-21, And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. NASB

Another favorite passage in these days is from the Old Testament, (I just must quote it here. We in NC have a wonderful hymn based on this passage.)

Zeph 3:9 - 20 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; for then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble."
14 Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!Shout in triumph, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away His judgments against you, He has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you will fear disaster no more. 16 In that day it will be said to Jerusalem: "Do not be afraid, O Zion; Do not let your hands fall limp. 17 "The LORD your God is in your midst, a victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. 18 "I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts — They came from you, O Zion; The reproach of exile is a burden on them. 19 "Behold, I am going to deal at that time with all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast, and I will turn their shame into praise and renown in all the earth. 20 "At that time I will bring you in, even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth,When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,"Says the LORD. NASB

Much Peace and Grace to all in our Lord Jesus Christ,


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Old 03-31-2009, 09:01 AM   #44
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Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

Welcome back HOPE!!

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In the 70's when I was in San Diego, we had very, very few messages on 'tithings & offerings'. The 'collection box' was in the back of the meeting hall and we rarely heard anyone talking about placing offerings. We learned by watching people place their offerings in the box.

I believe the boxes are still at the back of the meeting halls not readily seen.

During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects?The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:43 AM   #45
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I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:07 AM   #46
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I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?
It's a district just outside Taipei. That's all.
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:51 AM   #47
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During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects? The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.
In my area we had special meetings where we were told that we had opportunities to contribute to projects occuring elsewhere, i.e. Anaheim. So the main (Sunday morning) meeting wasn't a tithing meeting, but in that meeting we were informed about a special meeting regarding the Lord's move elsewhere. "Big doings, saints!" Those who were curious, like myself, and showed up, got dunned.
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:21 PM   #48
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Welcome back HOPE!!

Question:
In the 70's when I was in San Diego, we had very, very few messages on 'tithings & offerings'. The 'collection box' was in the back of the meeting hall and we rarely heard anyone talking about placing offerings. We learned by watching people place their offerings in the box.

I believe the boxes are still at the back of the meeting halls not readily seen.

During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects?The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.

Countmeworthy,

I would assume that every church handled these matters in their own way. In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.

After a meeting, we permitted brother Chang to present his vitamin business. I bought some. Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

I never mentioned Linko in Dallas but it was a big deal in Irving complete with models of the buildings to be built etc. Because the church in Dallas would not join in the cheerleading and fund raising from Irving there was more and more a strained relationship. Dallas did give money for Irving and the goal and purpose for the facility was shared. Benson came over a time or two and did some fund raising for that hall after a Lord’s table.

Usually Dallas had a sizable surplus in our bank accounts. On three occasions in Texas area elders meetings Benson and Ray put a press on Dallas to release our extra funds for Irving and LSM. We said no each time as our conscience did not agree that the money had been given by the saints for the questionable projects. This put quite a strain on our relationship.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.



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Old 03-31-2009, 03:37 PM   #49
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In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.
You may be correct that there was not a general public attempt to "sell" Daystar as an investment, although I have a vague remembrance of something. In any case, I know that my dad lost some money on it. How was he recruited to invest? I'm not sure I could say.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:52 PM   #50
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Countmeworthy,

I would assume that every church handled these matters in their own way... I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.
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Look up. Our redemption draws nigh now.
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:46 PM   #51
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Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.
This was wrong on so many different levels. First off there is the obvious deception getting people to put their savings in with you without telling them it's going into keeping your high risk bussiness afloat. But I'd have to think that the most dissapointing aspect of this is that this deception was committed against the young people. I can imagine the sense of betrayal one might feel when going to withdraw your money and finding that sorry you can't do that it's in Daystar. I just hope they had the good sense not to try and ask the young people to sign a waver. At this point I wouldn't be certain. Either way this and anything like it would go a long way to explaining why many of the church kid's left. Betray them while their young.

Quote:
Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.
I'm sorry if I'm bringing more of this up for you. I understand that this was just as much a deceiving of you. They shouldn't have gotten others to cooperate with thier scheme without fully informing them as to the specifics.
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:55 PM   #52
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If the worst thing to issue out of the Local Church in the U.S. were some money scams, I would consider that small potatoes. Not excusing, but if your heart was right and you gave as to the Lord (or can release it now on those terms) this is your gain. The problem is the exploited relationships which were utilized for the schemes and then the lack of resolution of any of the relationship problems that resulted. No one should care very much that the money itself is gone. But the damage to the Tabernacle of Testimony will be addressed by the Lord upon His return if it is not addressed properly now.
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:16 PM   #53
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Take Heart Hope. The Word of God is true and Faithful. The Lord promises to make ALL things new. He heals our pain..sometimes it's long and drawn out in our eyes. Everything happened for a reason.

Look up. Our redemption draws nigh.
One of my bad habits is that I often daydream; I create a fictitious parallel "world" in my mind where I don't make any mistakes and I do everything right. If I go far back enough in my troubled history and "scrub" my troubled life ("if I only took that job, or didn't take that job") I find myself in a wonderful place, with no bills, solid investments, a beautiful shiny car, a successful career, etc, but no Christ. You see, when I do everything right I don't need God's redemption, God's salvation. Also, I find that this new "world" bothers God because in that world there are two perfect people on the earth, Jesus and aron...people start getting confused who is actually the Christ...

So eventually my reverie is broken and I go, "Naww..." I stick to being a repentant sinner. In a life full of dark storms and "wrong turns", one day I chose Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. The whole Local Church thing is merely a tempest in a teapot. It's nice to think, as I heard BP once declare, that one is in the cental lane of God's move on the earth, but that is really so much deluded presumption: it's like saying "I am an overcomer". The one who presumes to be the elite is automatically disqualified! The only thing we can be sure about is that we were sinners, and one day in a vision of God's Chosen One called us from the darkness to the light. Good enough; trust in the Lord's calling, and His mercy, and go forward.

Anyway, cmw, this is my tangenital "amen" to your post. Peace to you and grace, both now and always.
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:25 PM   #54
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... we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account ... We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM.
This is most disturbing. It's even hard for me to believe. Obviously the whole "little banker" scheme was concocted knowing full well in advance that the young saints "surplus" moneys would be used for Daystar business debts. No doubt about it, there was no accident here. Is there any way that this could not be called embezzlement?

For years I heard WL condemn all Christianity and all Christian leaders for compromising the purity of the gospel and the truth relating to money, boasting that he and his ministry alone upheld the standard pleasing to the Lord, without any trace of compromise. One verse often used by WL to support these claims was 2 Cor 2.17, "For we are not like the many, adulterating (or peddling, retailing, hawking) the word of God for profit." How can we ever excuse or coverup this blatant contradiction and hypocrisy?

What's even more troubling to me is the fact that LSM never went back and attempted to make good on their past debts. Wasn't Message #2 of the New Beginner's Series entitled "Clearance of the Past?" Right after the message, "Knowing You are Saved." Why doesn't that message apply to LSM too?

At the time LSM purchased that huge La Palma Campus, the price tag was $30 plus million dollars, with 1/3 from Taiwan, 1/3 from the US churches (remember that $2,000 quota per offering unit!), and 1/3 from LSM's cash reserves. If LSM had over $10 million in cash reserves, (and how did they ever come up with that?!?) why couldn't they go back and make good on bad debt? Practice what they preach and clear the past?
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:57 PM   #55
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At the time LSM purchased that huge La Palma Campus, the price tag was $30 plus million dollars, with 1/3 from Taiwan, 1/3 from the US churches (remember that $2,000 quota per offering unit!), and 1/3 from LSM's cash reserves. If LSM had over $10 million in cash reserves, (and how did they ever come up with that?!?) why couldn't they go back and make good on bad debt? Practice what they preach and clear the past?
Ohio, in order to answer your question you need to adjust your thinking. Living Stream is a ministry, but it is also a business. As a business, it needs profitability to function long term. One may say, "no it's a non-profit". As a religious organization it has non-profit tax status, but it's a business that operates in the black. So, I suggest Living Stream is primarily a business functioning as a ministry.

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Old 03-31-2009, 07:13 PM   #56
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Ohio, in order to answer your question you need to adjust your thinking. Living Stream is a ministry, but it is also a business. As a business, it needs profitability to function long term. One may say, "no it's a non-profit". As a religious organization it has non-profit tax status, but it's a business that operates in the black. So, I suggest Living Stream is primarily a business functioning as a ministry.

Terry
Terry, I'd be glad to "adjust my thinking."

Care to comment about the rest of my post?

You don't want to be guilty of "taking things out of context," do you?
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:55 PM   #57
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This is most disturbing. It's even hard for me to believe. Obviously the whole "little banker" scheme was concocted knowing full well in advance that the young saints "surplus" moneys would be used for Daystar business debts. No doubt about it, there was no accident here. Is there any way that this could not be called embezzlement?

One verse often used by WL to support these claims was 2 Cor 2.17, "For we are not like the many, adulterating (or peddling, retailing, hawking) the word of God for profit." How can we ever excuse or coverup this blatant contradiction and hypocrisy?

Practice what they preach and clear the past?
I had never heard of the little banker scheme. Saints are really like sheep. Trusting those responsible for the flock would not conduct themselves as those in the world would. Embezzlement? Whatever happened to following business law and business ethics?
What would happen if a brother privy to violations of business ethics protested?

Practice what they preach and clear the past? It would be in the best interest of wounded members of the Body, but not in the best interest of certain individuals.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:28 AM   #58
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Ohio, in order to answer your question you need to adjust your thinking. Living Stream is a ministry, but it is also a business. As a business, it needs profitability to function long term. One may say, "no it's a non-profit". As a religious organization it has non-profit tax status, but it's a business that operates in the black. So, I suggest Living Stream is primarily a business functioning as a ministry.

Terry
I work for a non-profit organization. People have misconceptions about them because "non-profit" is a misnomer. A non-profit needs to be profitable like any business or it will go out of businesss. The difference is all profits must be plowed back into the business.

For-profit businesses exist to provide profit for owners or shareholders. Non-profits exist to provide some sort of service. But they can provide a profitable living for employees, and surplus earnings can be invested. The primary difference is that non-profits cannot issue stock or dividends.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:37 AM   #59
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I know of at least two people who would not forgive the loans they made to the Daystar debacle and expected repayment i.e. Lee tried to get them to sign off on a forgiveness document and they refused. Before that they were apparently quite influential and high profile in Lee's church. After that they were relegated to the back 40. Both eventually left that crazy place.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:45 AM   #60
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Ohio I think what Igzy is saying is: Daystar was a for profit enterprise. LSM is a non-profit enterprise. Technically speaking LSM must plow it's profits back into it's legit ministry activities ("legit" being often loosely defined by non-profits). Paying back the debt incurred by Daystar is not one of these activities. However Lee personally as a matter of good will and integrity could have paid back the debt.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:07 AM   #61
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Ohio, I think what Igzy is saying is: Daystar was a for profit enterprise. LSM is a non-profit enterprise. Technically speaking LSM must plow it's profits back into it's legit ministry activities ("legit" being often loosely defined by non-profits). Paying back the debt incurred by Daystar is not one of these activities. However Lee personally as a matter of good will and integrity could have paid back the debt.
djohnson, I understand the difference between the two enterprises, and I have no problem with NFP's making money and prospering -- but that was not my point.

In the "little banker" scheme, saints entrusted LSM with their savings, in lieu of a local chartered credit union. There was a level of trust which the flock of God had placed in the elders and the ministry. These moneys were recorded and forwarded by the LC's to LSM, which then transferred (illegally?) the moneys out of LSM accounts to other accounts (like the church in Dallas!) in order to pay Daystar business debts. Thus LSM was temporarily "broke," and requested the saints to consider their deposits as "offerings," by signing a forgiveness document. This is way different than investing in Daystar directly!

Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:23 AM   #62
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As I'm reading through the Daystar, Linko, & 'little banker' schemes, how is it that the LSM meetings/conferences/trainings continue to talk about the "Lord's work" via messages on biblical topics ?

Are they THAT deceived they think they have done nothing wrong? They came up with Daystar, Linko and the 'little banker' schemes.

Btw, they now have these motor homes touring the country touting 'Bibles for America'. I wonder if they're making money or losing money. Anyone know?

My question is serious. For those who left in the last few years and were there throughout these schemes, did the leaders never show any kind of embarrassment or remorse for misleading the church?

Do they not take any responsibility at all?
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:35 AM   #63
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Sorry for my misunderstanding Ohio. So they were using the LSM and the Lee church in Dallas as conduit accounts?

But as I understand it they also took equity investment and loan monies directly into Daystar. Is that correct?

Obviously the whole thing from start to finish was a mismanaged mess without full disclosure as to the risk level and shrouded in the cloak of false spirituality. At the time the Lee church elders were pitchmen for Daystar investments. Now they are pitchmen for books and conferences of the LSM. Same role different product. How they allowed themselves to be reduced to such a level is beyond me. Sad really.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:51 AM   #64
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As I'm reading through the Daystar, Linko, & 'little banker' schemes, how is it that the LSM meetings/conferences/trainings continue to talk about the "Lord's work" via messages on biblical topics ?

Are they THAT deceived they think they have done nothing wrong? They came up with Daystar, Linko and the 'little banker' schemes.

My question is serious. For those who left in the last few years and were there throughout these schemes, did the leaders never show any kind of embarrassment or remorse for misleading the church?
CMW, I'm sure brothers say let's forget about the past and just go on positively. Granted many have entered the recovery post-Daystar/Linko and many young people were raised in the local churches since these enterprises faded away. Certainly those that were directly involved want to wash their hands of the past and not suffer any embrassment over it.


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Old 04-01-2009, 12:01 PM   #65
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I work for a non-profit organization. People have misconceptions about them because "non-profit" is a misnomer. A non-profit needs to be profitable like any business or it will go out of businesss. The difference is all profits must be plowed back into the business.

For-profit businesses exist to provide profit for owners or shareholders. Non-profits exist to provide some sort of service. But they can provide a profitable living for employees, and surplus earnings can be invested. The primary difference is that non-profits cannot issue stock or dividends.
Igzy, if you were to compare ministries to ministries how would you differentiate Living Stream to Lifeway or to Stephen Kaung's ministry?

Why would someone such as myself refer to Living Stream as a business first ministry and not apply the same description to these other ministries?

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Old 04-01-2009, 01:14 PM   #66
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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Igzy, if you were to compare ministries to ministries how would you differentiate Living Stream to Lifeway or to Stephen Kaung's ministry?

Why would someone such as myself refer to Living Stream as a business first ministry and not apply the same description to these other ministries?

Terry
Terry,

I couldn't say because I know nothing about the business end of those other ministries.

However, again, there is nothing legally wrong with a non-profit/not-for-profit making a profit. In the case of ministries, it really comes down to ethics. Should, for example, Joyce Myers' non-profit pay her such a huge salary? Ultimately it comes down to potential followers of that ministry deciding whether or not the organizations's handing of finances passes muster.

However, dj is probably right, it is probably illegal for a not-for-profit company's monies to be funneled to pay the debts of a for-profit company.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:50 PM   #67
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Default Re: Questions about Lee's ministry!

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
As I'm reading through the Daystar, Linko, & 'little banker' schemes, how is it that the LSM meetings/conferences/trainings continue to talk about the "Lord's work" via messages on biblical topics ?

Are they THAT deceived they think they have done nothing wrong? They came up with Daystar, Linko and the 'little banker' schemes.

Btw, they now have these motor homes touring the country touting 'Bibles for America'. I wonder if they're making money or losing money. Anyone know?

My question is serious. For those who left in the last few years and were there throughout these schemes, did the leaders never show any kind of embarrassment or remorse for misleading the church?

Do they not take any responsibility at all?
A group of people who are brainwashed into believing that whatever they do has the blessing of God is a scary thing. They have not taken responsibility for any wrong doing, and never will, because they are fully convinced that they did no wrong.

Anything that we see as wrong is, to them, an issue of the ends justifying the means. You will notice how they use the Bible as a law book, always coming up with some kind of loop hole to explain whatever it is that they have decided is a part of "God's Move on the Earth."

Make no mistake about it, the inquisitioners of the dark ages had the same mindset. Remember the story about a group of Peter Waldo followers (I think) being rounded up in France into a barn? The cleric overseeing the proceedings said something to the effect of, "Burn them all, the Lord will decide which are His." Scary stuff - "God's Move on the Earth," "Apostle for the Age," "Acting God" - truly scary stuff.

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Old 04-01-2009, 08:51 PM   #68
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It's interesting to put these happenings in context with the happenings in the eighties.

In the seventies Witness Lee encouraged the saints to invest in Daystar a company which was to buy it's merchandise exclusively from Witness Lee's own company. Daystar later failed. According to the Daystar accountant

Quote:
Brother Lee and many leading ones faced potential criminal and civil penalties for violating state and federal securities laws and were in desperate need of re-paying those who had lost their life savings and were threatening to contact authorities because they believed there had been lies and misrepresentations.

The Mutation of Deputy Authority in the Lord’s Recovery, page 21
I assume that this would probably be the motive behind funneling funds from the not-for-profit LSM to the for-profit Daystar, further compounding the offenses. Add to this that previous to this were many other failed business ventures, and after this the Phosphorous factory was converted to making tennis racquets to sell to the saints. We can see one a huge mistake on the part of Witness Lee (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't simply a scam) and further a marked inability to learn from these mistakes.

Fast forward 10 years and this person is saying things such as.

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“I love you and I take you as my husband, but whatever you say I have to bring to the Lord to see if it is really His leading for me. I need to pray to find out whether I should take your word wholly or in part and whether it fits in with my situation.” If a wife had this attitude, how would her husband feel? Her attitude is a kind of subtle dissension, and her husband would not be able to tolerate it forever. I have been tolerating such an attitude from some, though, for the past fifteen years, but my toleration has ended."

Elder's training book 7, message 4.
and according to John Ingalls

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Brother Lee strongly vindicated the way he had taken against all criticisms. He drew a line; any who would not take this way, he said, are "dropouts", and the Lord will have no mercy. Addressing the brothers, he said that none of them understood what he was doing. None knew what he was doing in Taipei; hence there was no one that he could fellowship with. When I went to Taipei, he said, I did not fellowship with one person concerning what I was going to do. He continued: None of you is perfected. Who can say that he is perfected? So you are not qualified to criticize what I am doing. I didn’t include you in my fellowship – how can I? So let there be no more talk about anything I do. You criticize my young trainers in Taipei, telling me their mistakes, but I was doing everything; what they did was to carry out my burden.

Speaking the truth in Love, John Ingalls
How can a person who made such a huge mistake after he had supposedly been the minister of the age for 20 years, come out and suggest that his will should be taken 100% not only without the need for prayer but that actually to pray whether to take it would be an act of dissent?

Mistakes are to be expected in our christian life but we should learn from them. Did Witness Lee learn anything from Daystar? Did the recovery? Personally I believe that if Witness had learned from Daystar he would have learned that on his own he is perfectly capable of making decisions which jeopardise the entire recovery (Imagine if criminal proceeding had been brought), and as such he needed the fellowship of the brothers, he needed the balancing of the Body, he needed the protection of the Body, and as such would not have been able to just sweep aside the cares and concerns of the other brothers and sisters. Furthermore the recovery should have learned better than to receive this teaching from Lee that he was to be followed in such a way.

I have to question the spirituality of a person and a group which can do this. It seems like Witness had his pre-conceived notion (I am the wise master builder destined to carryout/oversea/whatever God's building on the earth) and nothing either God or man could do could persuade him otherwise. If when you come to the Lord he cannot right you on such things are you truly coming to the Lord. I think this is why the Lord said in John 4:24 "those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truthfullness." If we attempt to come to the Lord and are not willing to be completely honest, and to truly accept His leading whatever it may be then I believe we are essentially just praying to ourselves. I know for me at least this is something which I will hopefully be truly reminded of again and again throughout my life.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:57 AM   #69
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

We all are full of personal contradictions. To practice what we preach is not easy. Idon’tknow has merely pointed out , rightly so, some of the many personal contradictions of what Brother Lee preached and what he practiced. In the same way, I could point out many personal contradictions in Benson Phillips. Most of the BBs are a barrel full of contradictions. The PROBLEM IS THEIR CONCEPTS OF “DEPUTY AUTHORITY” AND THE EXCLUSIVE “GOD’S MOVE ON THE EARTH,” “VISION OF THE AGE,” and all of the various permutations. If an individual saint buys into this malarkey, then they are way out on a limb and scheduled for a big disappointment and disillusionment.

I recall a conversation with Witness Lee regarding the American character and his failure to take this factor into consideration. Witness Lee told me that he had learned that Americans are susceptible to “hero worship.” They do not critically consider what their leaders may propose. He believed that some of his wrong headed ideas had gotten support due to this flaw in the American character and that he needed to be careful not to take advantage of this weakness. Yet we know he repeatedly took advantage of this American characteristic.

On another occasion, after the DayStar failure, he apologized to me for his terrible mistake. He told me that Watchman Nee had warned him never to mix business with the church but that he had done it anyway. He said if he had to face Watchman Nee he would not know what to say. He would have “no face left.” He then added that I should not follow him, WL, but rather be true to the “vision.” I assured him that I was not following him personally, but rather the “vision.” Of course, I never forgot that particular conversation. I considered it a lot. I determined never to be caught following a personality but to seek to follow only the Lord and the truth in the Word of God. Of course, I have had many failures but eventually the violations against the truth and against the saints of God forced me to take another way in order to be true to the Lord and to my conscience.

I propose that as we discuss the personal failures and contradictions of WL and the local churches, we keep a cool spirit and attempt to recognize both sides. There is no need to be scandalized because we can see outrageous contradictions. Anytime a person is set up as the “end all to end all,” contradictions will more than abound. To assist those caught in the system, they must be relieved of the incredibly strong loyalty bond to the “special personalities.” It is because the contradictions and shortcomings of the leadership were allowed to go unchecked that the big mess and damage has occurred. Therefore, I believe that if this exercise is carried out in a proper spirit the innocent can be helped to escape the terrible grip of “Deputy Authority.”



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Old 04-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #70
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On another occasion, after the DayStar failure, he apologized to me for his terrible mistake. He told me that Watchman Nee had warned him never to mix business with the church but that he had done it anyway. He said if he had to face Watchman Nee he would not know what to say. He would have “no face left.” He then added that I should not follow him, WL, but rather be true to the “vision.” I assured him that I was not following him personally, but rather the “vision.”
What exactly is the "vision"? It has been a catch phrase without knowing it's definition?
The "vision" you and Witness Lee were talking about, I don't believe is the same vision spoken today. The "vision" I have heard spoken recently is intertwined with Witness Lee's ministry.

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Old 04-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #71
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Terry,

I couldn't say because I know nothing about the business end of those other ministries.

However, again, there is nothing legally wrong with a non-profit/not-for-profit making a profit. In the case of ministries, it really comes down to ethics.
Igzy, I agree with you to a point. There is nothing wrong with non-profit's making a profit. For example I'd have no problem if Living Stream did as Lifeway does and sets up a Christian bookstore in an outdoor mall. Selling Christian books of multiple ministries.
What price is profitability worth? You cannot price the Lord's testimony. It is pure and perfect.
Yet quarantines and lawsuits are business decisions first and foremost while portrayed as ministry decisions.

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Old 04-02-2009, 01:29 PM   #72
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I propose that as we discuss the personal failures and contradictions of WL and the local churches, we keep a cool spirit and attempt to recognize both sides. There is no need to be scandalized because we can see outrageous contradictions. Anytime a person is set up as the “end all to end all,” contradictions will more than abound. To assist those caught in the system, they must be relieved of the incredibly strong loyalty bond to the “special personalities.”

Hope
Well said.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:40 PM   #73
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The PROBLEM IS THEIR CONCEPTS OF “DEPUTY AUTHORITY” AND THE EXCLUSIVE “GOD’S MOVE ON THE EARTH,” “VISION OF THE AGE,” and all of the various permutations.
Agreed I would say that this is the point where the error changes from merely being an error into being a system of error.
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Old 04-03-2009, 05:00 PM   #74
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Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?
I think this could probably be considered one of the biggest proofs that the Mindbenders wasn't very well researched. After all Daystar would have been a gold nugget making their case. Also something which you should keep in mind is that at least by the time that Sal Benoit made his tape recording daystar had not gone bankrupt. It would seem that Witness Lee would not allow this to happen and that He funneled money out of LSM into daystar to prevent this from happening. Therefore I'm guessing there wouldn't be any obvious documents of a bankruptcy lying around. To find out about it they probably would have had to hunt down and interview ex-members.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:43 PM   #75
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Correct me if I'm wrong but Daystar was originally owned by other people and then bought by the saints. I was wondering does anybody know who originally owned it and what was bought. In particular If we were to investigate would we find that Daystar was originally owned by friends of Timothy Lee? Second of all did the saints really need to buy an existing business seeing as how the factory was already owned seperately by Phosphorous (unless of course the factory was originally a part of Daystar which would be interesting).
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:44 AM   #76
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The history of the Daystar project is fuzzy to me in some ways now. But I recall that there was talk of it as something not yet done when it was first “sold.” I really wish someone who specifically remembers how it was talked-up in Dallas could remember things about it. Don has not recalled any church time being given to it. I wonder if it was some discussion that occurred after a meeting.

In any case, few companies are entirely created out of the air by its investors. Assuming a corporation, it usually is created by a lawyer with a funny name. Someone comes along and says “I need a corporation” and finds it “on the shelf” at the lawyer’s office, buys it, and renames it. Then changes are made to its charter to match the requirements of the new venture, then actual capital and other property is contributed to it so it can begin business. So the idea that Timothy Lee or the owners of Phosphorus, or even Phosphorus itself owned Daystar before the saints invested is not, of itself, proof of shenanigans. You must look into all relationships between the companies once in operation, and find evidence of non arms-length transactions, transactions directed by people with conflict of interest, etc.

As for timing, I recall that one brother went from Dallas for a period of time to work on the things. I don’t recall if it was to actually build them, or to correct some aspects of their manufacture before they could hit the US markets. I also was at a brother’s house (Colley Joseph?) when Bob Bynum drove one of those things into Dallas, arriving at about dinner time. When the engine was turned off, it dieseled for about 30 seconds before going silent. Even though that was a common phenomenon for many large V8 engines of the day, I thought it was odd for one that was supposed to be so new. That told me that the process of driving it the 1,500 miles from the West coast had already taken a toll. I really don’t recall seeing that one or any others again, although some have reflected upon it being parked in the parking lot at the meeting hall (behind the “big house”).

To me, one of the biggest questions is why anyone would think that they could get into the RV business, even to own a dealership, and much less to build them. Someone was smoking something funny, or thought they could use something no one would really know anything about to bamboozle a bunch of trusting sheep into investing...
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:19 AM   #77
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My first conversation regarding Daystar occurred in the Magnolia House in LA around 1970-71 summer time. Frank Deluna’s wife had inherited some money. He was looking to start a business. He and Tim Lee had come up with the idea of selling expensive exclusive motor homes. They were in the very early stages. I was in sales and very interested in running my own business. I was curious as to what I could learn. Frank and I spoke for about an hour on the porch.

A few days later, I happened to be in a group conversation with WL. The conversation went to the spreading of the local churches and the need for some of the brothers to serve full time and the need for funds to acquire adequate property. Since we were primarily a very young group, there was little surplus for any projects. WL mentioned the business that Tim and Frank were starting. He felt it “matched us,” what ever that meant I am not sure but those were his words. He then went on to share how he believed that the best way was to build the coach ourselves. He believed they could be manufactured in Taiwan which would provide jobs for the saints and resources for the Lord’s work in the Far East. Then they could be sold to wealthy Americans and by eliminating other entities, (that is keeping everything within the circle of the local churches) a substantial profit could be made on each unit. He went on to add that saints in the USA and Taiwan and Manila could invest for their own profit and provide a source of revenue for the “Lord’s Work.” He wanted to dedicate 35% of the profit for “the work.” 35% of the profit would go to the investors and I do not recall exactly what was to happen to the final 30% perhaps it was to go for the work in the Far East.

The project moved very quickly from there. Within about three years, a factory had been built in Taiwan and a facility for finishing the coaches had been acquired and put into operation in Orange county. The only problem was there were no buyers and we were in the midst of the oil embargo. The project did not last very long. I was very close to Bob Bynum, who sold the coaches in the Southwest. We knew it was a real losing boondoggle. I was with him quite a bit as he evaluated the product and market. Very BLEAK. Max Rapaport became the President and quit his job to run Daystar. He told me that “if there is a market for the Daystar, it is sitting on the head of a pin.”

About this time, I was in a conversation with James Barber. James was very enthusiastic about the whole venture and had invested in the business. I told him my opinion and how hopeless it appeared to me. His response was that even if I was correct, WL was God’s man for today and the Lord would bless it anyway. I was in more than one conversation where some brother expressed this superstition.

In my opinion, it was something that got way out of hand and took on a life of its on. People were extremely enthusiastic and optimistic about the project. WL did not have to do much to persuade the saints to invest. Every pitch I ever heard was off line from a regular meeting and whoever was directing the meeting was very careful to give a disclaimer at the beginning that the Daystar business was a business and not a part of the church but that it was owned and run exclusively by brothers and sisters in the local churches.



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Old 04-07-2009, 07:01 PM   #78
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Thank you hope for clearing up a misconception I had about Daystar.

Something else I was interested in seems to be that generally on this or the other forum I get the general impression that the Daystar's were not very good vehicles, on the RV forums I here things like.

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In the mid 1970's I happend to come across the people that were forming the company. And happened to speek to it;'s presdnt.
The Daystar was the gem of all motorhomes built both then and now. Yes you could compair it agaist a Provost but that is as an apple to an orange.
Daystars I think were only 26' long. I would Deffinetly try to find & buy one, I heard that ultimely only 10 were produced. It was the right Motorhome built at the wrong time. Gasoline shortages with long lines around the block, the rich opting for hotels instead of R.V.'s etc.
More later if I remember.
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Could somebody give me a clearer impression of what the Daystar RV was like.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:16 AM   #79
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Quality of the Daystar unit.

It had pluses and minuses. It was designed by an elderly gentleman who had designed the original Coke delivery trucks. Many in the RV community did not like the design and believed it did not match the time. The interior was spectacular. Marble counter tops. Teak wood. Soft Cadillac leather. The body was core 10 steel. This made it safer than a tank but also put it at the limit of weight. The problem was that paint did not bond well to the shell. Several of the units began to shed paint. I saw one in Austin, it had been sold, but it looked like a mangy dog.

The main problem was the price. They had originally been priced at around 60k. A handsome sum in 1973-74. Eventually I believe the units that sold sold for around 30k. There were a dozen or so shells at the plant in Orange County which were never finished out and were sold for the steel.

No one was the same after Daystar. WL has said that the recovery lost its virginity. At least there was a loss of the Lord’s presence and the glow that had been with many began to fade. The simplicity and purity was gone. LSM became a business. Fees were charged for conferences. Some who served full time began to receive a salary. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” The push for “good material” began. We had a call for the gospel song that had a line that went, “To the beaches, the parks or where ever we may.” This song ceased to be sung. The highways and byways were replaced with go the campus and bring in the good material. So. California was never the same in spite of great effort to recapture the era of blessing and glory.



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Old 04-08-2009, 08:04 AM   #80
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No one was the same after Daystar. WL has said that the recovery lost its virginity. At least there was a loss of the Lord’s presence and the glow that had been with many began to fade. The simplicity and purity was gone. LSM became a business. Fees were charged for conferences. Some who served full time began to receive a salary. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” The push for “good material” began. We had a call for the gospel song that had a line that went, “To the beaches, the parks or where ever we may.” This song ceased to be sung. The highways and byways were replaced with go the campus and bring in the good material. So. California was never the same in spite of great effort to recapture the era of blessing and glory.
Hope
Well...there's PART of my answer on how one moved up the LSM/LC totem pole. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” It never was about true 'growth & maturity in Christ' was it?

The more I read about Lee, the more I see what a complex person he was. Seems like he was really torn between serving/honoring the Lord and the call on his life AND living in the flesh.
You wrote Lee said the Recovery had lost its' virginity. Who did he blame? Was he not at the HELM of the 'Recovery'? Did he not take any personal responsibility for its' demise? Did he care more about the organization than the LORD HIMSELF?

And how could he write the Life messages which spoke so much of the LORD Jesus? (But they also spoke a LOT about 'the church'---the LC church)
How true it went the way of the campus way....it still holds true today...what a shame. I'm so glad God has not given up on the older people. I've led my high school best friend to the Lord who is in her 50s. And I've led the parents of another friend who are in their 80s to the Lord too. (NOT tooting my horn here...just making a point God still is after and loves 'older people' not just the college 'good material'.) Btw, I'm a college 'drop out'. ...and so are my friends I've led to the Lord.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:17 AM   #81
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Well...there's PART of my answer on how one moved up the LSM/LC totem pole. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” It never was about true 'growth & maturity in Christ' was it?
Dear cmw,

I like to avoid absolute statements like "It never was about true growth and maturity in Christ." Function based on growth and maturity were often manifested in many local churches. But over time a "totem pole" (to use your term) began to be erected. The glorious mystery of the functioning Body of Christ began to be replaced by a system with a leadership structure and organizational set of goals. It has become very similar to the mega church movement where some gifted leaders seek to organize and package God's work on the earth.

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Old 04-08-2009, 09:37 AM   #82
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You wrote Lee said the Recovery had lost its' virginity. Who did he blame? Was he not at the HELM of the 'Recovery'? Did he not take any personal responsibility for its' demise? Did he care more about the organization than the LORD HIMSELF?
I have to believe the Daystar fiasco was entered upon with a certain amount of naivety and delusions of God's blessings ... maybe I give WL some credit for examining various avenues for supporting workers and building meeting halls ... at least he tried ...

But, for WL to make this statement about the saints losing their virginity over Daystar, assigning blame to them and accepting no accountability himself for the disaster, which he even later called a "cancer on the recovery," is to me ... plain and simple ... totally inexcusable ... for any servant of the Lord.

Last night I just happened to see Jimmy Swaggert on TV to my surprise ... at one time totally disgraced in failure ... kind of similar to King David ... yet he shamefully repented with many tears ... and it seems the Lord has restored some of his ministry. WL ... otoh ... all too often blamed others for what he should have taken ownership for.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:21 AM   #83
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Dear cmw,

I like to avoid absolute statements like "It never was about true growth and maturity in Christ." Function based on growth and maturity were often manifested in many local churches. But over time a "totem pole" (to use your term) began to be erected. The glorious mystery of the functioning Body of Christ began to be replaced by a system with a leadership structure and organizational set of goals. It has become very similar to the mega church movement where some gifted leaders seek to organize and package God's work on the earth.
Hope
I recant and apologize for not clarifying my thoughts. I ought to have been more careful when I wrote that statement.

I was generalizing the LSM institution as a whole. In my 'locality', the elders in San Diego were mature in Christ & in the Word of God...not merely in the ways of the LC under Lee's ministry. Obviously, you and many others were/are in a position of authority and are mature in Christ.

I'm sure there were many, many qualified Shepherds in the LC throughout the U.S. and abroad. Same thing with Christians who are not in 'leadership'. There are many mature, strong, steadfast. And there are many carnal, weak and lukewarm.

I was focusing on the big picture. Sorry.
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:19 PM   #84
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Hi I believe I'm just venting here. But has anyone noticed that for all the talk about building and taking heed to how we build. Gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble. With Daystar (or rather the clean up) we have a prime example of building with wood. When the Brother Lee decided to launder (if that is the correct term) money through the churches to pay of Daystar debts, he was not just saving himself by exercising his flesh. He was teaching all the Co-workers involved this to the younger coworkers. They would have essentially been taught that it was essentially okay to perform such things when it was neccessary to do so to protect the church, rather than being constrained by the Lord and having faith that he was soveriegn in the situation (If you had faith like a mustard seed you wouldn't have to launder money to get yourself out of the toilet). I believe that this would have essentially been built into to these leading ones which they probably have then built into other leading ones. Does this lead to a situation like with babylon in Rev 18:16 "... and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls". Where if you were to look at the outward appearance it looked like the thing was constructed of gold, precious stones and pearls. But if you were to look at the inward structure of the building everything is being held up by Wood, Grass, Stubble.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:56 PM   #85
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(If you had faith like a mustard seed you wouldn't have to launder money to get yourself out of the toilet).
Interesting thought IDK ... actually there's very little faith left in the program, but you bring up a bigger point ... what materials were used for building in the LC's? We heard for years that the Lord's Recovery was built with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones ... now I wonder if there was any at all.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:03 PM   #86
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Interesting thought IDK ... actually there's very little faith left in the program, but you bring up a bigger point ... what materials were used for building in the LC's? We heard for years that the Lord's Recovery was built with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones ... now I wonder if there was any at all.
Now. Now, Ohio. Don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water! Perhaps there is a lot of wood, hay & stubble in the LC...and maybe always was but there are individuals in the LC..that are made from Gold (Divinity) Silver (Redemption) and Precious stones. Same goes for those in 'Christianity'. The Universal church has both Gold, Silver and Precious stones AND Wood, Hay and Stubble. The wheat & the tares.

(sigh).
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:47 AM   #87
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Now. Now, Ohio. Don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water! Perhaps there is a lot of wood, hay & stubble in the LC...and maybe always was but there are individuals in the LC..that are made from Gold (Divinity) Silver (Redemption) and Precious stones. Same goes for those in 'Christianity'. The Universal church has both Gold, Silver and Precious stones AND Wood, Hay and Stubble. The wheat & the tares.

(sigh).
Don't give Ohio such a hard time. Virtually the only babies in the bathwater of the LC are the people. And too many of them are covered in years of bathwater that has affected how they react to the world outside their bathwater. Yes, they are dear ones of God. And fellowship with them can be good when they are willing to do it without their peculiar lingo (part of the bathwater). They need to get out of that bathwater, be washed in pure water, dried off, and some lotion put on their skin to begin to replenish the oils that make the skin healthy. (Talk about taking a metaphor to an extreme!)
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:05 AM   #88
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Don't give Ohio such a hard time. Virtually the only babies in the bathwater of the LC are the people. And too many of them are covered in years of bathwater that has affected how they react to the world outside their bathwater. Yes, they are dear ones of God. And fellowship with them can be good when they are willing to do it without their peculiar lingo (part of the bathwater). They need to get out of that bathwater, be washed in pure water, dried off, and some lotion put on their skin to begin to replenish the oils that make the skin healthy. (Talk about taking a metaphor to an extreme!)
OBW,
Ohio wondered if there had ever been any gold, silver, precious stones in the LC. I was making a point there was. I am thankful for my time there. I grew, I got the Word into me, I learned the basics of sharing the gospel and building up the Body of Christ. I learned it there. That was Gold, Silver & Precious stones. You, Ohio, and just about everyone on this forum got much of the Gold, Silver & Precious Stones while in the LC.

But certainly there was a LOT more wood, hay & stubble. As you pointed out, the peculiar lingo, the 'look', the mannerisms, was wood, hay & stubble, and even worst was the shennigans with Daystar, the exclusive use of the RcV, the HWMR & other projects....surely that is all wood, hay & stubble.

That is why we are no longer there.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:19 AM   #89
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I was really just pointing out that, while we hay have grown in our times in the LC, and we may have learned things that we did not know before, the only positive things that seem to come out of the LC are the people and the teachings that are also found elsewhere. Those teachings may have been less prominent in the 60s and 70s in other places, but they were never the sole domain of the LC.

While I can admit that a good part of what I learned there was worthy of keeping, I now realize that those parts were not peculiar to the LC. The only thing that I took with me from the LC that was not already in Christianity was myself. (That sounds funny because it seems to say that the LC is not in Christianity. But from their perspective, they are not.)
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:25 PM   #90
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Now. Now, Ohio. Don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water! Perhaps there is a lot of wood, hay & stubble in the LC...and maybe always was but there are individuals in the LC..that are made from Gold (Divinity) Silver (Redemption) and Precious stones. Same goes for those in 'Christianity'. The Universal church has both Gold, Silver and Precious stones AND Wood, Hay and Stubble. The wheat & the tares.

(sigh).
CMW, I stand corrected. Sorry if I sounded too harsh. As much as I love babies, I would never throw one out.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:24 PM   #91
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There has been focus on Daystar and it's nebulous history. What about the saints that were stumbled? Was there any concern for those that lost heart over how the Daystar situation was handled?
I realize it's been 35 years since and many meeting in the local churches came in after Daystar. Still there is a number meeting who can recall. Instead of searching for the one lost coin, it's swept out the door so the wind can blow the coin where it may.
This episode in history should be a learning experience and which direction not to take.

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I see your point it is very easy for us to say when others are stumbled that they needed to take the cross and that it is their loss. But we also have to see that if it were that easy then the Lord would have returned 2000 years ago. I don't really know how to say this but I guess that if we find that in order to protect the fold we cannot repent to and look after the lost one, then in essence we have sacrificed the fold already because the fold then simply becomes a collection of sheep of which anyone could be sacrificed at enemy time for the greater good. (At this point this is just musing I'm not certain where I am with this).

Anyway does anyone no the story behind this. I.E. those who were discouraged over Daystar, how were they treated. Was their any kind of public repentance or was just a situation where all involved were expected to go on as if nothing had happened.
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:02 AM   #92
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Another question I would wonder about daystar is this. Was it an influence in the 70's rebellion? And if so how direct?

My primary reason for thinking this is because if I'm not mistaken LSM money would have been, being funnelled through the churches to pay of daystar debts at this point. (Given that from memory in the OT Judah was considered as being guilty of fornication for relying on egypt for chariots and such (protection) instead of in Jehovah, I wonder whether this could be considered a form of spiritual prostitution). So it could be considered that the rebellion may have been a sort of punishment for this (possibly also the cult books). Second of all given that Max was probably the one who got Sal to tape the phone conversation with Lee he almost certainly knew about what was going on with the Daystar debts. Could his knowing about such blatant unrighteousness caused him to act in a way which he would not have done otherwise. (I'm not saying that he was justified in trying to make himself king but rather that seeing such hypocrisy and being involved in it may have made him more capable of rationalizing unrighteous actions.)
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:13 PM   #93
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Now they are republishing all of Lee books in collected works form. While it looks nice, what it troubling is that they are rushing to publish all his unpublished soft bound books, that they will just subsequently republish hardbound in a year or two. They want your money twice.

All these business ventures,etc. and I can't help but scoff at Ron Kangus rebuking people for their commercial mind. Looks pretty hypocritical from here.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:58 PM   #94
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A similarity to Daystar and how this investment scheme (also involving soliciting congregation members to invest) turned out.

"Prosecutors said that beginning in 1996, Mr. Altman asked congregants to give him lump sums of money in exchange for certificates promising up to 24 percent returns."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07341/839912-55.stm

"He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches).
The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches."

http://www.hidinghistoryinthelordsre...ryofHiding.pdf
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Old 05-12-2015, 08:30 AM   #95
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CMW, I'm sure brothers say let's forget about the past and just go on positively. Granted many have entered the recovery post-Daystar/Linko and many young people were raised in the local churches since these enterprises faded away. Certainly those that were directly involved want to wash their hands of the past and not suffer any embrassment over it.


Terry
Obviously it would be idiosy for me to say I remember that clearly after 40 years but I was sick on the day of the meeting of the decease of Day Star so never even knew who were the fallen investors. BP came to me privately the next week and gave me the sad news. The only thing remarkable was the concern that WL would feel so bad about our loss. There was never one word said in a Dallas meeting about the demise. Not one.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:57 AM   #96
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Obviously it would be idiosy for me to say I remember that clearly after 40 years but I was sick on the day of the meeting of the decease of Day Star so never even knew who were the fallen investors. BP came to me privately the next week and gave me the sad news. The only thing remarkable was the concern that WL would feel so bad about our loss. There was never one word said in a Dallas meeting about the demise. Not one.
Lisbon
Recently I was informed by an old LC'er friend of mine, who lived in SoCal during the Daystar debacle, and who is no longer in the Recovery, that "every investor in Daystar got paid back." He said it in such a way that our discussion was over, and not to be brought up again!

This is just one example of how many former members maintain their pristine image of Lee.
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:09 AM   #97
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Recently I was informed by an old LC'er friend of mine, who lived in SoCal during the Daystar debacle, and who is no longer in the Recovery, that "every investor in Daystar got paid back." He said it in such a way that our discussion was over, and not to be brought up again!

This is just one example of how many former members maintain their pristine image of Lee.
My understanding is that Daystar debts weren't necessarily all paid back (only some), but everything else was "settled". I take that to mean that a lot of investors decided to forgive Lee either by their own doing or as a result of pressure.

Actually, in Philip Lin's book, he says "Brother Lee had cleared all debts". Now what exactly does cleared mean? I suspect it's meant to give the reader the impression that everything was paid back. The real questions are how many were actually paid back? How many forgave Lee by their own choosing? How many were pressured or forced to forgive Lee? The last question is the most important. If anyone was pressured to forgive Lee's debts even though they didn't want to, that is indeed a problem.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:20 AM   #98
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My understanding is that Daystar debts weren't necessarily all paid back (only some), but everything else was "settled". I take that to mean that a lot of investors decided to forgive Lee either by their own doing or as a result of pressure.

Actually, in Philip Lin's book, he says "Brother Lee had cleared all debts". Now what exactly does cleared mean? I suspect it's meant to give the reader the impression that everything was paid back. The real questions are how many were actually paid back? How many forgave Lee by their own choosing? How many were pressured or forced to forgive Lee? The last question is the most important. If anyone was pressured to forgive Lee's debts even though they didn't want to, that is indeed a problem.
There seems to be a wide discrepancy between their official statements and the actual facts. Some have stated that only those who screamed loud and long were repaid. Max Rapoport rose in prominence because he was the one willing to go church to church twisting arms into submission.

Here's what bothered me the most, which I posted some time ago ...

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In the "little banker" scheme, saints entrusted LSM with their savings, in lieu of a local chartered credit union. There was a level of trust which the flock of God had placed in the elders and the ministry. These moneys were recorded and forwarded by the LC's to LSM, which then transferred (illegally?) the moneys out of LSM accounts to other accounts (like the church in Dallas!) in order to pay Daystar business debts. Thus LSM was temporarily "broke," and requested the saints to consider their deposits as "offerings," by signing a forgiveness document. This is way different than investing in Daystar directly!

Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors.
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:16 PM   #99
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"Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors."

Could it be that WL and his sycophant blendeds are unrighteous? If so, who in their right mind would listen to anything they have to say?
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Old 05-13-2015, 05:02 AM   #100
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"Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors."

Could it be that WL and his sycophant blendeds are unrighteous? If so, who in their right mind would listen to anything they have to say?
Only those who are convinced that Lee was a gifted minister of the word and that it can be compartmentalized from his personal, financial, etc., evils.

But Paul would have rejected the minister because of the personal. In his view, they cannot be separated.

But even our forum has some who believe that they can figure out what is the leaven and what is the wheat. They would never return to the system Lee created but pine to repeat it and follow so many of his teachings which they still hold as meaningful.

If someone said that we should charge certain ones to "not teach differently," who would we think of as teachings differently? The ministers of the Baptist, Bible, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc., churches, or the ministers of the local churches? Yes, the first group teach differently relative to Nee and Lee. But do they teach differently from the Bible? I think Nee and Lee clearly do. And if they do in some things, how do we determine which are acceptable and which are not?
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:40 AM   #101
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Could it be that WL and his sycophant blendeds are unrighteous? If so, who in their right mind would listen to anything they have to say?
If not unrighteous, at best apathetic to righteousness. Within the realm of US politics whenever I think of Barrack Obama, Hillary Clinton, among other leftist liberals, I compare to the blended brothers. They're alike when it comes to total disregard of facts, covering over the truth, etc.
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:46 AM   #102
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If someone said that we should charge certain ones to "not teach differently," who would we think of as teachings differently? The ministers of the Baptist, Bible, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc., churches, or the ministers of the local churches? Yes, the first group teach differently relative to Nee and Lee. But do they teach differently from the Bible? I think Nee and Lee clearly do. And if they do in some things, how do we determine which are acceptable and which are not?
What is it to teach differently? As I understand it's not adding or taking away from what the Bible says.
In my time in the local churches and on the forums, LSM definition of teaching differently is not to teach different from 1. Witness Lee's ministry and 2. Watchman Nee's ministry which may often be referred to as the New Testament ministry.
For example a brother could be teaching according to the Bible, but if it's not according to Witness Lee's ministry, it is considered teaching differently.
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Old 05-13-2015, 07:16 PM   #103
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"Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors."

Could it be that WL and his sycophant blendeds are unrighteous? If so, who in their right mind would listen to anything they have to say?
Having time to read other comments I feel that I need to say that not everything that has been spoken by WL and the blendeds is wrong and heretical. As much as they deny it they are part of historic Christianity and they do hold to many orthodox truths...but my opinion is that there is so much leaven mixed in with their speaking that it is dangerous.
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Old 05-14-2015, 12:06 PM   #104
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Having time to read other comments I feel that I need to say that not everything that has been spoken by WL and the blendeds is wrong and heretical. As much as they deny it they are part of historic Christianity and they do hold to many orthodox truths...but my opinion is that there is so much leaven mixed in with their speaking that it is dangerous.
What I find to be the most dangerous is the teaching & practice of deputy authority. As Ohio has said countless times, it makes bullies out of good brothers.
1. Humility is replaced with pride. When a brother becomes proud, he doesn't need to answer nor apologize to anyone.
(But when he became strong, his heart was so proud that he acted corruptly, and he was unfaithful to the Lord his God, for he entered the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense.) 2nd Chronicles 26:16
2. There's no impartiality. One accord is deemed being one with the deputy authority.
(You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’ ) Deuteronomy 1:17
3. Brothers are good speakers, but they are lacking in love.
(If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.) 1 Corinthians 13:1
4. There is the tendency to reject facts and rely solely on assumptions. As understanding facts may result in a brother's conscience becoming inwardly disturbed (convicted by the Spirit)
(He who is slow to anger has great understanding, But he who is quick-tempered exalts folly.) Proverbs 14:29
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Old 05-14-2015, 06:21 PM   #105
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Having time to read other comments I feel that I need to say that not everything that has been spoken by WL and the blendeds is wrong and heretical. As much as they deny it they are part of historic Christianity and they do hold to many orthodox truths...but my opinion is that there is so much leaven mixed in with their speaking that it is dangerous.
My concern is not what Lee said or taught, so much, but what Lee did and the Blendeds are doing. It's their authoritarian system that turns me completely off. That's at the bottom of what's wrong with the LSM local church. To me it's like they're creating a golden calf.
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:16 PM   #106
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My concern is not what Lee said or taught, so much, but what Lee did and the Blendeds are doing. It's their authoritarian system that turns me completely off. That's at the bottom of what's wrong with the LSM local church. To me it's like they're creating a golden calf.
I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "don't throw out the baby with the bath water". What is considered the baby and what is considered the bath water?
In my mind the top two I consider as bath water are the doctrines
  • Ground of Locality
  • Deputy Authority

It's these divisive teachings that are damaging.
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Old 08-05-2015, 07:23 AM   #107
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Does anyone know the names of the recruiters ? There should be a public record of this.
The only name I know for sure is Bob Bynum, now deceased. I don't remember him being called a recruiter. He was outside sales for Daystar. If you mean the names of the Daystar investment brokers, that would be the elders in your locality. It didn't happen at a church meeting, but it was in the meeting hall in a special Daystar meetings where they made their pitch.

I knew someone who worked in CA in the Daystar plant. The coaches were well built and full of class amenities. I had practically memorized the sales brochure. Bob Bynum showed me one of the coaches that had made a sales trip to Austin. The coach was in town at some kind of celebrity gathering. Reportedly Jack Nicholus was being courted as a prospect.

I was a Daystar investor. At the time, it seemed like the best way to show the elders that you were absolute. I was small potatoes, so I didn't lose much. I signed a document forgiving the debt because it seemed like the best way to show the elders that I was absolute.

There were quite a large number of saints in the "release of debt" meeting, We were told that WL was distraught over the failure of Daystar and the loss of the saints money. I remember one who had invested the money their parents had given them to pay for their college education. They could not sign the "release of debt" document and reportedly did recieve their money back. So there was some money to repay the saints who could not lose their investment. This begs the question, where did it come from? I have thought that if I were the one who took money from the saints and later I lost their money for whatever reason, I would repay them if it was the last thing I did on this earth. If I had a successful publishing company, proceeds from that operation would go first to repaying the debt I owed the saints. Ironically, in that scenario, the saints who lost money in Daystar would be the same ones buying books from LSM...in effect, paying themselves back.

As I said, my "investment" was totally self-serving. When it went down, we were told that the reason was the "oil crisis" when the price of gasoline went through the roof. I questioned this...to myself of course. It seemed to me that anyone who could afford to pay $70K for a motorhome could also afford to put gas in it...regardless of the price.

Because of the hype, failure was not an option. They certainly couldn't admit "we were wrong", so it was handy to blame the "oil crisis".

Nell
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:03 AM   #108
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Where did the money to pay off the Daystar debts come from? Probably something a little like some of those big-named radio and television evangelists did to cover their shortfalls.

An example (without names, but many will figure out where I got it). Start encouraging people to send in money for a prayer tower. You will get prayed on from it if it is built. It is built, but not fully funded.

So a new project is conceived. Send in money for this one and [blah blah blah]. Some of the money get siphoned to pay for the remaining costs of the prayer tower. Since the second project is now short, start a third one. The example included building a hospital to train doctors, and care for the sick, but it was overly large for the city in which it was built. Eventually things began to not get finished. And there was a bit of a scandal over some of it.

It seems that in the case of Daystar, the source is not known, but suspected. The money for payment came from Anaheim (not necessarily the church — probably indirectly from LSM) and went to special accounts set up in some cities for the purpose of quietly paying off the debts. I believe Don Rutledge spoke of one such account in Dallas. If the LSM source is correct, then training fees and book sales of a non-profit organization paid for the debts of a for-profit organization.

Unfortunately, it appears that no one who actually knows is alive or willing to speak on it.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:31 AM   #109
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I was a Daystar investor. At the time, it seemed like the best way to show the elders that you were absolute. I was small potatoes, so I didn't lose much. I signed a document forgiving the debt because it seemed like the best way to show the elders that I was absolute.

There were quite a large number of saints in the "release of debt" meeting, We were told that WL was distraught over the failure of Daystar and the loss of the saints money. I remember one who had invested the money their parents had given them to pay for their college education. They could not sign the "release of debt" document and reportedly did recieve their money back. So there was some money to repay the saints who could not lose their investment. This begs the question, where did it come from? I have thought that if I were the one who took money from the saints and later I lost their money for whatever reason, I would repay them if it was the last thing I did on this earth. If I had a successful publishing company, proceeds from that operation would go first to repaying the debt I owed the saints. Ironically, in that scenario, the saints who lost money in Daystar would be the same ones buying books from LSM...in effect, paying themselves back.

As I said, my "investment" was totally self-serving. When it went down, we were told that the reason was the "oil crisis" when the price of gasoline went through the roof. I questioned this...to myself of course. It seemed to me that anyone who could afford to pay $70K for a motorhome could also afford to put gas in it...regardless of the price.

Because of the hype, failure was not an option. They certainly couldn't admit "we were wrong", so it was handy to blame the "oil crisis".

Nell
Daystar was an opportunity for a lesson to be learned, and sadly that never happened. I don't blame Lee for being concerned for the financial needs of the LC. Being that he was so dedicated to his ministry, running a side business is something that he should have never done, and even more importantly, he failed to utilize the proper avenues in terms of finding business loans and investors. In other words, he was wrong to use LC members as a easy way to drum up investments for his business.

You made a good point about the oil crisis. That was probably only a minor part of what cause the business to fail. It sounds to me like they just couldn't sell the motorhomes to people. I'm sure plenty people were buying other motorhomes at the time.

I've always found it a bit troubling that some were repaid the debt, others were asked to forgive the debt. That indicates there was enough money lying around to appease those who wouldn't be happy with their losses. LSM should have done their best to pay back everyone at a later point in time (it's not like they didn't have the money after they began charging training "donations").

In more recent years, there hasn't been a Daystar type venture, but I've seen the same pattern of wasting saints time and money. The Harvest House litigation comes to mind. I wonder how many millions of dollars were wasted on that? I wonder how many donated? Maybe it was a bigger waste than Daystar for all we know.

I just found out recently that the LC's in Southern California are planning on purchasing a well-known camp in the area. Here's the kicker, the decision has been made, they need something like $10 million for the purchase, so they are calling a gathering in a month or so to have some "fellowship" about this purchase. Do you know what that gathering will be? It will be a call for $$$$. If the decision has been made, there isn't anything to "fellowship" about. They will simply tell everyone how it's going to be and how they can "participate". What irks me is that in the event they sold the acquired real estate, who gets the money? I'm fairly certain that it won't be redistributed to the churches who invested. So Daystar is long over, but the pattern continues to this day.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #110
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There were quite a large number of saints in the "release of debt" meeting, We were told that WL was distraught over the failure of Daystar and the loss of the saints money. I remember one who had invested the money their parents had given them to pay for their college education. They could not sign the "release of debt" document and reportedly did recieve their money back. So there was some money to repay the saints who could not lose their investment. This begs the question, where did it come from? I have thought that if I were the one who took money from the saints and later I lost their money for whatever reason, I would repay them if it was the last thing I did on this earth.

If I had a successful publishing company, proceeds from that operation would go first to repaying the debt I owed the saints. Ironically, in that scenario, the saints who lost money in Daystar would be the same ones buying books from LSM...in effect, paying themselves back.

Because of the hype, failure was not an option. They certainly couldn't admit "we were wrong", so it was handy to blame the "oil crisis".
They couldn't admit "we were wrong". At least never have publicly. Practices have been a type of Standard Operating Procedure of placing blame with someone else and not taking responsibility.

Regarding Daystar, conversations with my dad and also with another brother, they were refunded their investment of $400-$500 each. I'm sure there are those who invested substantially more and those who invested less.

With the release of debt, there were those who forgave the debt and as Nell indicated others who could not. It's been said training fees/donations was instituted to repay back the debt owed. During my time in the LC I had seen training fees/donation increase from $50 to $100. Not sure what it is now. I'm sure LSM/DCP must be working very diligently to ensure each one is reimbursed for their loss regardless what debt forgiveness document was coerced to sign.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:22 PM   #111
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LSM should have done their best to pay back everyone at a later point in time (it's not like they didn't have the money after they began charging training "donations").
Pay back everyone? With who's money? They would take the money from the very ones they owe, to pay them back. If you ask me Daystar was a ponzi pyramid scheme ... and those at the top walked with the money. I'll bet Tim Lee didn't lose any money.

Quote:
What irks me is that in the event they sold the acquired real estate, who gets the money?
I've been there. I was told "It's God's money." I was taken aback. I had already crossed the elder so I didn't kick a fuss. I figured I wasn't gettin the money back anyway. But my thought was, 'Yeah it's God's money but He wants me to hold it, not you.'

Nell,

I've read that Tim Lee walked with a million from Daystar. You know anything about that?
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:18 PM   #112
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Pay back everyone? With who's money? They would take the money from the very ones they owe, to pay them back. If you ask me Daystar was a ponzi pyramid scheme ... and those at the top walked with the money. I'll bet Tim Lee didn't lose any money.
It isn't clear to me the time-frame in which the reimbursements happened. Unless it happened over an extended period, I would suspect that the funds came from Daystar accounts instead of LSM funds (if those two entities can even be distinguished).

My theory is that those running Daystar realized that the motorhomes weren't selling long before there were any significant losses, so they closed up shop. In other words, there was probably some money floating around. Lee was forced with the decision of how best to salvage the situation, and I presume he repaid those most likely to raise a fuss.

From a broader perspective, yes I would agree with you that it was basically a ponzi scheme. That's not to say that it was planned out purposely in that way, but it could have never survived as a normal business in America. There were too many entities involved, too much moving money around. I suppose they thought that they didn't need to worry about if it was an ill-advised venture, God was going to bless them no matter what.
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Old 08-05-2015, 03:55 PM   #113
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...it was basically a ponzi scheme. That's not to say that it was planned out purposely in that way, but it could have never survived as a normal business in America. There were too many entities involved, too much moving money around
Suppose, just for the sake of consideration, that Tim Lee was an astute businessman. Suppose that OPEC didn't rear its ugly head and gas didn't zoom upward in price. Suppose that these were actually well constructed vehicles, not the "wildebeasts" one former salesman called them. Hot, heavy, clunky, smoky pieces of junk.

Suppose this thing had actually made a profit. I would still ask, what the hell (and I use this word deliberately) was Witness Lee doing, using the podium to extract money from church members for business ventures? What the hell was going on here? What kind of glassy-eyed idiots did we have to be (and I was one) to think that moving ourselves into collective money-making enterprises was church... I don't even have words here...

We had all this hifalutin verbiage of the glorious church, the bride of Christ, and accompanying vilification of "fallen Christianity" which missed the Divine Mandate, then suddenly we were getting excited about building MOTOR HOMES? What the hell?

At the very best, this thing was going to be a snare, a trap, and a stumbling. At the very best.
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Old 08-05-2015, 04:34 PM   #114
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Suppose, just for the sake of consideration, that Tim Lee was an astute businessman. Suppose that OPEC didn't rear its ugly head and gas didn't zoom upward in price. Suppose that these were actually well constructed vehicles, not the "wildebeasts" one former salesman called them. Hot, heavy, clunky, smoky pieces of junk.

Suppose this thing had actually made a profit. I would still ask, what the hell (and I use this word deliberately) was Witness Lee doing, using the podium to extract money from church members for business ventures? What the hell was going on here? What kind of glassy-eyed idiots did we have to be (and I was one) to think that moving ourselves into collective money-making enterprises was church... I don't even have words here...

We had all this hifalutin verbiage of the glorious church, the bride of Christ, and accompanying vilification of "fallen Christianity" which missed the Divine Mandate, then suddenly we were getting excited about building MOTOR HOMES? What the hell?

At the very best, this thing was going to be a snare, a trap, and a stumbling. At the very best.
I couldn't agree more. Maybe Lee thought that Ponzi schemes couldn't fail in the LC because "there is no hierarchy in the church life". Think about that one for a minute.

On a more serious note, there are absolutely no excuses whatsoever for Lee to have used his ministry as a platform for business ventures. What I find particularly disgusting is the that he knew very well that the saints would be willing to go along with whatever he wanted to do. If there's anything thing I've learned from my time in the LC, it's that LCers love to give. They love to give time, money, and energy to the LC. To put it simply, anyone who donated to Daystar had their "willingness" taken advantage of.

Maybe most LCers couldn't see beyond the "giving" aspect (as they conditioned to), but did it ever occur to anyone that the business was not guaranteed to be profitable? Apparently not. Business involves an inherent risk, and this is exactly what everyone was oblivious to. I'm sure everyone thought God's blessing had been upon Lee from day 1, so maybe they felt invincible to anything but success.

In a best case scenario, it would have taken the business years to grow, and a good amount of time for it to become significantly profitable. That is assuming the books are 100% legit and there are no underhanded dealings going on. The formula for success just wasn't there and it just seems so far-fetched that anyone could have believed in it succeeding. Even if it was successful I'm sure the Overseas Christian Stealers nonsense would have caught up to Lee before long.
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Old 08-05-2015, 06:53 PM   #115
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That is assuming the books are 100% legit and there are no underhanded dealings going on.
A brother intimately involved in Daystar told me he was made to leave the LC for saying he knew for a fact that Witness Lee committed crimes with Daystar.
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:09 AM   #116
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Default Lookie what I found! Article about the designer of the Daystar, W.E. Miller


The following is an excerpt from this article and can be found towards the end of the article. Also there is a picture of a completed (maybe restored?) Daystar motorhome at the bottom right of the article.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.
"

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Old 08-06-2015, 01:21 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

The following is an excerpt from this article and can be found towards the end of the article. Also there is a picture of a completed (maybe restored?) Daystar motorhome at the bottom right of the article.
Wow, thanks for sharing this! I presume this guy W.E. Miller had no LC affiliation? If that is indeed the case, he got taken really bad. Witness Lee, Samuel Chang, K.H. Weigh and Timothy Lee should have all been absolutely ashamed of themselves of what they did. True to form, there was no repentance and no admission of guilt. According to W. Lee, the only guilty ones were those who "lost their virginity". That is a big slap in the face to those who willingly went along with Lee's Daystar escapade.

The internet has already helped bring some of these things to light, and over time, more and more people are going to find out about Daystar. Maybe the blendeds think because it happened 40 years ago it doesn't matter anymore. Wrong! It does matter and it should matter to anyone in the LC.
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Old 08-06-2015, 05:10 PM   #118
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Default Re: Lookie what I found! Article about the designer of the Daystar, W.E. Mi

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.
"
This is an incredible, independent, piece of LC history, which confirms what many former insiders have told us. Here we have three diverse Witness Lee minions. Samuel Chang was the brother of Watchman Nee's wife, and Kenneth Weigh worked with Nee, and worked on Nee's books, including his testimony.

I have always found it amazing how even well-respected spiritual ministers can sacrifice righteousness in order to further their leader's agenda.
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:29 PM   #119
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Default Re: Lookie what I found! Article about the designer of the Daystar, W.E. Mi

Untohim, what you've found, and presented, reveals that Lee was shifty, and playing a shell and pea game with companies and money.

From what I've learned Lee was shifty before coming to America, and continued to be that way here.

So taking the saints virginity was intentional, premeditated, and crafted out from the get-go.

Thanks for presenting it bro Untohim.

Ha

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

The following is an excerpt from this article and can be found towards the end of the article. Also there is a picture of a completed (maybe restored?) Daystar motorhome at the bottom right of the article.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.
"

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Old 08-08-2015, 10:27 AM   #120
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

The following link has photos of the interior of a Daystar mothorhome:
http://www.dodgetravcos.com/index.ph...-Dodge-Daystar

It looks well-appointed, but worth $70k? Not a chance. No wonder these things didn't sell. I'm sure $70k was a lot more back then too.
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Old 08-08-2015, 11:13 AM   #121
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The following link has photos of the interior of a Daystar mothorhome:
http://www.dodgetravcos.com/index.ph...-Dodge-Daystar

It looks well-appointed, but worth $70k? Not a chance. No wonder these things didn't sell. I'm sure $70k was a lot more back then too.
A 14,000 pound kludge ...

It more than implies delusion ... like all the rest of Lee and Nee's teachings and movement; one massive delusion ...

The teachings are the hair around the hook.
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:32 PM   #122
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A 14,000 pound kludge ...

It more than implies delusion ... like all the rest of Lee and Nee's teachings and movement; one massive delusion ...

The teachings are the hair around the hook.
Just looking at the pictures of the Daystar motorhomes, it seems to resemble the figment of someone's own imagination rather than being a practical motorhome that would sell. I realize it may have been all W.E. Miller's design, but Lee was someone who invested in the business, thinking it could sell, so he was just as far removed from reality. It really was all one big delusion, a delusion of epic proportions.

What it really comes down to is the environment of the LC was the catalyst for a endeavor such as Daystar. Lee's LC world was one in which he answered to no one, where no one dared to question him or give him constructive feedback. He never had to deal with the consequences of his actions.
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:51 PM   #123
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Just looking at the pictures of the Daystar motorhomes, it seems to resemble the figment of someone's own imagination rather than being a practical motorhome that would sell. I realize it may have been all W.E. Miller's design, but Lee was someone who invested in the business, thinking it could sell, so he was just as far removed from reality. It really was all one big delusion, a delusion of epic proportions.

What it really comes down to is the environment of the LC was the catalyst for a endeavor such as Daystar. Lee's LC world was one in which he answered to no one, where no one dared to question him or give him constructive feedback. He never had to deal with the consequences of his actions.
He obviously had delusions of grandeur ... and what he produced was a Bible based delusions.

Run as far away as possible as fast as possible away from it all. And dump that delusion out of your head. Dump it from your history, just like Daystar.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:36 PM   #124
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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What it really comes down to is the environment of the LC was the catalyst for a endeavor such as Daystar. Lee's LC world was one in which he answered to no one, where no one dared to question him or give him constructive feedback. He never had to deal with the consequences of his actions.
When I think of Daystar, I think of the Harvest House lawsuit. They were based off the financial donation of brothers and sisters.
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Old 08-08-2015, 02:00 PM   #125
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When I think of Daystar, I think of the Harvest House lawsuit. They were based off the financial donation of brothers and sisters.
The environment of the LC gives rise to all kinds of bad judgements and decisions. The LC has continued in the same trajectory to this day. Harvest House was just as bad as Daystar, if not worse. If I was someone who had donated to that lawsuit, I probably would have demanded an explanation for where my money went. It was a huge waste.
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:30 PM   #126
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The environment of the LC gives rise to all kinds of bad judgements and decisions. The LC has continued in the same trajectory to this day. Harvest House was just as bad as Daystar, if not worse. If I was someone who had donated to that lawsuit, I probably would have demanded an explanation for where my money went. It was a huge waste.
The result as always is no accountability.
As I understand the protocol from time of the lawsuit would be an elder or deacon giving an announcement for saints to give specifically to the lawsuit. What is not known and can be considered hearsay is elders would pledge how much their locality can give towards the lawsuit.
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:44 PM   #127
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The result as always is no accountability.
As I understand the protocol from time of the lawsuit would be an elder or deacon giving an announcement for saints to give specifically to the lawsuit. What is not known and can be considered hearsay is elders would pledge how much their locality can give towards the lawsuit.
Lee and now the BBs believe that sheep need to be fleeced from time to time. In fact many Christian leaders believe that. Christians can be so gullible. They only go bleep, and go beep beep, while getting fleeced.
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Old 08-08-2015, 06:24 PM   #128
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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The result as always is no accountability.
As I understand the protocol from time of the lawsuit would be an elder or deacon giving an announcement for saints to give specifically to the lawsuit. What is not known and can be considered hearsay is elders would pledge how much their locality can give towards the lawsuit.
I believe that LSM DCP simply levied a "taxation" upon each member LC loosely based on membership of the phone list.

I rember several "discussions" i had with one particular elder of mine. He always tended to inflate church attendance as a kind of self promotion. I, however, would tend to discount church attendance, knowing the consequences of "taxation without representation."
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:07 PM   #129
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When I think of Daystar, I think of the Harvest House lawsuit. They were based off the financial donation of brothers and sisters.
The last time I checked LSM was sitting on about $13 million in cash easily seen by anyone looking. Do you know the purpose of this large stash of cash? It ain't to feed the poor, clothe the naked, care for widows...I think it's for a message to anyone or any group that dares to challenge LSM letting them know that they have the resources to "sue 'em till the cows come home". I don't know for sure, but I imagine that a legitimate non-profit would be putting their resources where the needs were.
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Old 08-10-2015, 12:31 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Just looking at the pictures of the Daystar motorhomes, it seems to resemble the figment of someone's own imagination rather than being a practical motorhome that would sell. I realize it may have been all W.E. Miller's design, but Lee was someone who invested in the business, thinking it could sell, so he was just as far removed from reality. It really was all one big delusion, a delusion of epic proportions.
The early 70s was an era of grandiose in motorhomes. If it had not been for the oil embargo running the price of gasoline up so quickly, they might have sold a bunch of them. In that respect, I cannot say that the venture was simply doomed. But one of the serious risks came true in spades.

I saw one of them arrive in Dallas from Anaheim. It was really nice. Of course the motor dieseled right there in the driveway when the engine was turned off. Problem of older-style V-8s with the wrong gas.
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Old 08-10-2015, 12:34 PM   #131
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The last time I checked LSM was sitting on about $13 million in cash easily seen by anyone looking. Do you know the purpose of this large stash of cash? It ain't to feed the poor, clothe the naked, care for widows...I think it's for a message to anyone or any group that dares to challenge LSM letting them know that they have the resources to "sue 'em till the cows come home". I don't know for sure, but I imagine that a legitimate non-profit would be putting their resources where the needs were.
Yes, they can outspend many others. But they have to remember that the last lawsuit — and almost the only one to actually get a complete hearing — they lost.
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Old 08-10-2015, 05:42 PM   #132
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Yes, they can outspend many others. But they have to remember that the last lawsuit — and almost the only one to actually get a complete hearing — they lost.
Does anyone have an estimate on how much LSM spent on their failed lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court?
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Old 08-10-2015, 05:50 PM   #133
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Not sure if these are the only employees, but those they list are all relatives of one of the directors of LSM.


TIMOTHY GRAVER CHILDOFOFFICER 50,669.W-2WAGES
AMY GRAVER CHILDOFOFFICER 28,640.W2WAGES
THEODOREHAGE INLAWOFOFFICER 90,226.W2WAGES
NICOLEDUSSELJEE CHILDOFOFFICER 22,533.W-2WAGES
JOSEPH PRIM INLAW OF OFFICER 60,135.W-2 WAGES

Here's the link to the originating document.

http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2015_01...990_201312.pdf
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Old 08-10-2015, 06:29 PM   #134
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Does anyone have an estimate on how much LSM spent on their failed lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court?
The amount i remember was approx 13.7 million.
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Old 08-10-2015, 07:35 PM   #135
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The early 70s was an era of grandiose in motorhomes. If it had not been for the oil embargo running the price of gasoline up so quickly, they might have sold a bunch of them. In that respect, I cannot say that the venture was simply doomed. But one of the serious risks came true in spades.

I saw one of them arrive in Dallas from Anaheim. It was really nice. Of course the motor dieseled right there in the driveway when the engine was turned off. Problem of older-style V-8s with the wrong gas.
The one in the pictures had brass fixtures. Didn't they make one with real gold plated fixtures. At least that is what I was told. It may have just been in the pitch to gain more investment from the saints. In fact, as I heard it, there was no motor home that could come close to the Daystar Motor Home. And it was going to be a smashing sure-thing success. But I do think that was a scripted pitch, for money. Sort of like the pitch I keep getting from Hank Hanegraaff, of Christian Research Institute (We Were Wrong fame).

Lee is not the only one that believed that sheep had to be fleeced. Hank keeps his sheep-shears sharp at all times. I don't know who is worse ; Christians that take other Christians, or, Christian who allow themselves to be taken. Both shame Jesus ... and make being born again unattractive.

How come the most Christian nation on the earth is the most materialistic? Is that the way the sermon on the mount says to be? Who, really, lives the Bible?

And by the way. The 440 was a great engine, but the Daystar, because of its weight, should have been made with a diesel engine. That's just more evidence that the Daystar business was a delusion on Lee's part.

Lee was delusional. We can see that now. For that reason everything about Lee should be questioned and rejected. But depending on the level of investment, which is usually 'all in,' getting the Lee delusion out once in is almost impossible. I'm still digging out pieces of it after decades.

For this reason I'm deeply moved for those that are leaving the LC today. Leaving is not as easy as just walking away. There's years of recovery to go thru. We need to recover from the Recovery.
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:59 PM   #136
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The early 70s was an era of grandiose in motorhomes. If it had not been for the oil embargo running the price of gasoline up so quickly, they might have sold a bunch of them. In that respect, I cannot say that the venture was simply doomed. But one of the serious risks came true in spades.

I saw one of them arrive in Dallas from Anaheim. It was really nice. Of course the motor dieseled right there in the driveway when the engine was turned off. Problem of older-style V-8s with the wrong gas.
The reason the oil crisis happened is because it was the “Lord's doing”... At least this is what Philip Lin tells us: "Unfortunately (Note: Rather, I would say that it must be of the Lord’s doing), because of the energy crisis in the United States, those large size automobiles like the motor home, which consume a huge amount of gasoline, were hard to sell. Seeing the adverse situation in the motor home business due to the energy crisis, Brother Lee immediately decided to stop manufacturing and close the factory..."

Just considering the logic people like Lin employ shows a lot of what the real problem is. There’s the lack of common sense. These men were living in lala land. It sounds to me like they consider the whole Daystar failure to have just been the Lord supposedly redirecting them to do something else. The oil crisis was blamed, but I think there were other risk factors involved. The oil crisis was out of their control, but did they act wisely with respect to what they could control (price point, size/weight, offering multiple models, etc.)?

I googled to see how many motorhome businesses failed as a result of the oil crisis, and the number I saw was something like 40%, so I will admit they could have possible survived. I’m just not all that convinced people wanted something that grandiose. IMO the price point was a big risk factor. That was their only model, and they had the job of convincing people to drop $70k (something like $310k in today’s dollars). I doubt that was an easy task even when gas was cheap. When gas got expensive, then it became impossible.

All in all, Lee’s mindset was to “plunder Egypt”, so I don’t think the means by which he wanted to that was as important to him as the end result he wanted. Daystar was just a means to an end for Lee, and that’s why I think it failed. He thought the Lord would bless his endeavor. When that didn’t happen he was faced with the issue of the oil crisis, but also a business that wasn’t robust enough to survive (as some businesses did). In Lee’s mind, nothing could go wrong. He was the MOTA. He knew best.
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Old 08-11-2015, 04:34 AM   #137
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Pay back everyone? With who's money? They would take the money from the very ones they owe, to pay them back. If you ask me Daystar was a ponzi pyramid scheme ... and those at the top walked with the money. I'll bet Tim Lee didn't lose any money.


I've been there. I was told "It's God's money." I was taken aback. I had already crossed the elder so I didn't kick a fuss. I figured I wasn't gettin the money back anyway. But my thought was, 'Yeah it's God's money but He wants me to hold it, not you.'

Nell,

I've read that Tim Lee walked with a million from Daystar. You know anything about that?
I don't. Sorry I didn't see your quesiton sooner.
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:20 AM   #138
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Does anybody have any information regarding the other Witness Lee/LSM financial boondoggles, such as Linko (sp.?) or the Tennis Racket deal? Wasn't Linko the company that produced those ugly goldish colored chairs. I know that most of the Local Churches in Orange County had to buy those for their meeting halls. My butt STILL hurts from sitting on those for 30 Training meetings twice a year.

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Old 08-11-2015, 10:35 AM   #139
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Does anybody have any information regarding the other Witness Lee/LSM financial boondoggles, such as Linko (sp.?) or the Tennis Racket deal? Wasn't Linko the company that produced those ugly goldish colored chairs. I know that most of the Local Churches in Orange County had to buy those for their meeting halls. My butt STILL hurts from sitting on those for 30 Training meetings twice a year.

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LinKo was a piece of land outside Taipei where LSM wanted to build a stadium for conferences and trainings with W Lee.

Some one forgot to check zoning regulations, and the thing was never built.

--------------------------------------

One day Titus Chu got a call from Lee that he just bought 1,000 goldish chairs.

One day our elder got a call from Chu that he just bought 100 goldish chairs.

One day I got a call from our elder to go to Cleveland and pickup 100 goldish chairs.

--------------------------------------

And we called it the fellowship of the Spirit in the one body.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:58 PM   #140
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One day Titus Chu got a call from Lee that he just bought 1,000 goldish chairs.

One day our elder got a call from Chu that he just bought 100 goldish chairs.

One day I got a call from our elder to go to Cleveland and pickup 100 goldish chairs.
And neither Chu nor Ohio had sense enough to drive as far away from the LRM as far and fast as possible.

Why?
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:14 PM   #141
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And we called it the fellowship of the Spirit in the one body.
You got to experience not just the universality, but the practicality of the oneness.

"Thank you sir, may I please have another"
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:22 PM   #142
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.
"

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---------------------------------------------------

Although Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh were listed as "directors", I wouldn't think that they were involved in the day-to-day operations, and certainly not involved in the "money-laundering scheme". If someone else has any information about their participation please feel free to post it here. The escapades of Timothy Lee have been well chronicled on this forum and elsewhere. My understanding is that he stayed in a company paid mhotel and was visited by prostitutes on a regular basis. Apparently this was seen by some other brothers who worked at Daystar, and they became so disgusted with Tim's debauchery they quit and left.

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Old 08-18-2015, 10:29 PM   #143
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Wouldn't it be great fun if one drove one of these and meandered thru the parking lot of building 8 during the winter trainin?

I remember a significant call to arms for help with building 8. I went for a few days. My father said i ought to go spend a summer working on it. Our locality felt bad as even though we were close by we did not send much help...at least this is what I remember from the mtgs.

That building apparently breaks a few records in the area...lcm seems quite proud of that.
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:18 AM   #144
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Wouldn't it be great fun if one drove one of these and meandered thru the parking lot of building 8 during the winter trainin?

I remember a significant call to arms for help with building 8. I went for a few days. My father said i ought to go spend a summer working on it. Our locality felt bad as even though we were close by we did not send much help...at least this is what I remember from the mtgs.

That building apparently breaks a few records in the area...lcm seems quite proud of that.
Can you say more about bldg 8?
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Old 08-19-2015, 05:28 AM   #145
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Wouldn't it be great fun if one drove one of these and meandered thru the parking lot of building 8 during the winter trainin?
I would like LSM to prominently feature a restored Daystar Motor Home on their training campus there in Anaheim. After all, it was arguably the high peak of the divine economy at one point, in the history of God in His move on earth with man.

Someone got an inheritance and laid it at the feet of the humble bondslave of Jesus Christ, and he got a vision from on high. Motor homes! Thus the call went out to all the local churches, for an opportunity to participate in God's blessing.
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Old 08-19-2015, 06:15 AM   #146
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I would like LSM to prominently feature a restored Daystar Motor Home on their training campus there in Anaheim. After all, it was arguably the high peak of the divine economy at one point, in the history of God in His move on earth with man.

Someone got an inheritance and laid it at the feet of the humble bondslave of Jesus Christ, and he got a vision from on high. Motor homes! Thus the call went out to all the local churches, for an opportunity to participate in God's blessing.
How dare LSM buy a motor home for Bibles For America travels when they could restore an original Daystar?!?
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Old 08-19-2015, 07:24 AM   #147
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How dare LSM buy a motor home for Bibles For America travels when they could restore an original Daystar?!?
I know one of the BFA motorhomes was purchased by a brother and donated to BFA. They might have multiple motorhomes, I don't remember.

I found a Daystar for sale in case BFA would like to follow your suggestion:
http://yakima.craigslist.org/rvs/5126326652.html
"This DayStar MotorHome was almost completed by the factory."
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:24 AM   #148
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I know one of the BFA motorhomes was purchased by a brother and donated to BFA. They might have multiple motorhomes, I don't remember.

I found a Daystar for sale in case BFA would like to follow your suggestion:
http://yakima.craigslist.org/rvs/5126326652.html
"This DayStar MotorHome was almost completed by the factory."
While I was in Detroit (Summer 1971-Feb 1974) I never had any time or money to spend on this nonsense. At the time it was brought to my attention I was working full-time at night at Chevrolet Spring and Bumper, attending classes at the University full time during the day, and attending every meeting in the morning and evening at the LC. I remember Tim Scroggins mentioning Daystar at one point to me after coming back from an Elder's conference but to his credit he nor any of the elders every pushed it. Sorry so many people lost money but it is difficult for me to relate other than the mess it created throughout the LC. I just wonder if it was more of a California and Texas push for money for the Daystar disaster.
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Old 08-19-2015, 12:37 PM   #149
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Sorry so many people lost money but it is difficult for me to relate other than the mess it created throughout the LC. I just wonder if it was more of a California and Texas push for money for the Daystar disaster.
I'm not sure at what point my dad invested $400-$500 in Daystar. It could have been in Los Angeles, Phoenix, or Albuquerque.
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Old 08-19-2015, 12:43 PM   #150
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Can you say more about bldg 8?
I believe it's more expansion on La Palma. I know brothers from Washington state and northern California who gave their time for the project.
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:13 PM   #151
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Can you say more about bldg 8?
I started hearing about building 8 in the mid to late 2000's if I remember correctly. I think it's officially called the "Ministry Conference Center", and it was an additional building on their LaPalma property. There were frequent requests for free labor (LSM's key to gaining multi-million dollar real estate at minimal cost). Just as Pharaoh made God's people build, so also did LSM ask saints to donate their weekends freely to come and build.

Building 8 is the ministry conference center that trumped all other previous LSM ministry centers. I've been in it, it is gigantic (but nothing special). It's where people go to use up two weeks of vacation every year to listen to ear-tickling preachers.
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:16 PM   #152
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Yep. Largest and newest(as of my time there) building at the La Palma area where they host conferences. Apparently the single largest bathroom in the near area(even Disneyland? I suppose), listed as an official earthquake refuge building due to its solid construction.

Many from all over helped-brothers from far away frequently stayed for months on site put up in trailers. I helped out a few times-laying bricks for the parking lot, planting planters, scrubbing down the concrete. Such a strange world we were in. I always had trouble believing that God's purpose boiled down to this strange little plot in Anaheim. Weird weird weird.

I wonder how much they make selling those Chinese banners, calendars, and other paraphernalia? I'm sure Morning revival addiction is a key part. I for one never bought one. Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings(I had begun working-somehow survived in LB on 1099 and a little less than 10 grand)...I had money to spare but didn't think that giving to God's purpose necessarily meant one particular offering box. It is sad to see saints money so frivolously wasted away.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:00 AM   #153
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"This DayStar MotorHome was almost completed by the factory."
Unfortunately this DayStar MotorHome was left uncompleted by the factory, because the pitiful mooing cows couldn't dance fast enough when the piano played. Sorry, that's an inside joke.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:28 AM   #154
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Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings(I had begun working-somehow survived in LB on 1099 and a little less than 10 grand)...I had money to spare but didn't think that giving to God's purpose necessarily meant one particular offering box. It is sad to see saints money so frivolously wasted away.
Difference for me between non-LSM affiliated churches and LSM affiliated churches, I have the peace to give when meeting with a non-LSM affiliated church. While meeting with various local churches, I never had the peace to give.
How was the money being used? There's no assurances if I choose to give that the locality would send the money to LSM for another real estate venture, to DCP for the next lawsuit, etc. If I put a disclaimer "not to be used for LSM, DCP, BFA, etc," how will that go over with the brothers counting the giving?
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:11 AM   #155
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Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings
I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.

Now, after hearing about what Lee said of those that lost their investment in Daystar, that, "They lost their virginity," I can't agree with it anymore. Lee broke me of that habit. Now I look at it like it's more of what took the virginity in the first place ... without a kiss.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:00 AM   #156
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I started hearing about building 8 in the mid to late 2000's if I remember correctly. I think it's officially called the "Ministry Conference Center", and it was an additional building on their LaPalma property. There were frequent requests for free labor (LSM's key to gaining multi-million dollar real estate at minimal cost). Just as Pharaoh made God's people build, so also did LSM ask saints to donate their weekends freely to come and build.

Building 8 is the ministry conference center that trumped all other previous LSM ministry centers. I've been in it, it is gigantic (but nothing special). It's where people go to use up two weeks of vacation every year to listen to ear-tickling preachers.
IIRC, The last time I was out there, Bldg. No. 5 was gutted and used for Trainings. Is Bldg No. 8 new construction?
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:11 AM   #157
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IIRC, The last time I was out there, Bldg. No. 5 was gutted and used for Trainings. Is Bldg No. 8 new construction?
Bldg 8 is towards the back of the property right up against the freeway. It may have been an existing building, but if so it was significantly redone. I'm not sure what bldg 5 is used for now.
This is the google maps view of bldg 8:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mi...a17dca!6m1!1e1
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:49 AM   #158
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I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.
When elders start pledging to LSM who much their localities can be expected to pledge to a lawsuit, speaking of what's natural....
When I was meeting with the Church in Bellevue, what the lead elder at the time resounds very truthfully; "there's no democracy in the churchlife". When it comes to giving, brothers and sisters are at the mercy how their giving is utilized.
Personally, I would prefer used to help less fortunate households of the congregation than for the next "flow".
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:50 PM   #159
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"there's no democracy in the churchlife".
Says who? The Bible? Or the Minister of the Age, the Grand Pooh-Bah? Is this more wisdom from Apostolus Maximus, the Seer of the Age?

I've seen churches that were more democratic, and that functioned better than the LC, with less storms, turmoils, and rebellions. But they aren't 'normal'? According to whose idea of normal? Watchman Nee's absolutist "Hand everything over and get in line" model?

I seem to remember in the counsel in Jerusalem, everybody got to speak (see Acts 15, esp vv 6 & 7). Did everybody get to speak in the LC churchlife? No. Only one trumpet allowed, they said. Pfft. Not normal at all.

Daystar, among other doozies, came out of the "Brother Lee says" model of the churchlife, which Terry referenced above... no democracy, no checks and balances, no reasoning or examining to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). No testing, and no proving (1 John 4:1, 1 Thess 5:21). Just "be one with our brother" and "even when he's wrong he's right". Again I ask, just how normal is this kind of churchlife?
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:07 PM   #160
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I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.

Now, after hearing about what Lee said of those that lost their investment in Daystar, that, "They lost their virginity," I can't agree with it anymore. Lee broke me of that habit. Now I look at it like it's more of what took the virginity in the first place ... without a kiss.
Does anyone have a citation or reference for the "lost their virginity" quote attributed to WL?
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:51 AM   #161
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Does anyone have a citation or reference for the "lost their virginity" quote attributed to WL?
It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:43 AM   #162
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It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!
Not a quote you'd want attributed to the Minister of the Age. He could have easily said, I never forced anyone to invest.

On another note in light of concerns Dick has had then and in the late 80's, he's managed to remain absolute for the ministry.
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:46 PM   #163
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Not a quote you'd want attributed to the Minister of the Age. He could have easily said, I never forced anyone to invest.

On another note in light of concerns Dick has had then and in the late 80's, he's managed to remain absolute for the ministry.
The "they lost their virginity" statement reveals that from Daystar the Lee family was laughing all the way to the bank ... and laughing at the investors into Daystar as fools ... that they Bill-Cosbyed.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:56 PM   #164
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It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.
I thought I remembered there being a similar statement in the phone conversation with Sal B. Maybe I have just merged the two over time.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:35 PM   #165
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I thought I remembered there being a similar statement in the phone conversation with Sal B. Maybe I have just merged the two over time.
I also thought I remembered that it was said on the phone with Sal B in Boston.
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Old 08-21-2015, 05:19 PM   #166
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It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!
Sorry, the question was not asked by DT, but by John Smith of San Diego.

Here is the quote ...
Quote:
Don Hardy to Steve Isitt: Some time after DayStar failure, we had a "BIG" elders gathering: and John Smith from San Diego asked WL a question: "Brother Lee, HOW could sooooo many saints fall into soooo much pain and trouble, since DayStar? So many have never been restored! And frankly, I don’t know how to help them" (And Steve, other bros there also "amen'd" and groaned along with John's question). Here's what Witness Lee answered: "Brothers when the saints FIRST came into "the recovery" they were "VIRGINS" BUT, MANY of them have now LOST their virginity!"

John was AGAST!! "Why, Brother Lee, WHAT do you mean, lost their virginity?" WL: "Well Brother, THEY allowed themselves to be SEDUCED away from their purity and singleness with Christ alone." WOW Steve! NOT ONE Brother caught what WL was saying; but I (yes, I) DID! Not one of them realized (Steve -- this is how much darkness most were in, and still are....); not one realized: "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!"

But at that moment for once, I LISTENED to the Holy Spirit and God's Light, realizing: "THIS is the man!" I was so sad. I STILL LOVED Brother Lee, and prayed much for him; BUT my eyes were further opened to the MIXTURE we were all involved in. So, in Los Angeles, and then Rosemead, we began to "separate" ourselves, unto the LORD ALONE. We still received TRUTH; but never again, just gullibly accepted "everything." THIS turn has saved the saints in Rosemead, even up to today.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:41 PM   #167
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It's just sheer arrogance that Lee could say that the saints had "lost their virginity" and were "seduced", but not flat out admit that he was the one who had been seducing everyone. He knew he had made a big mistake, and he also knew that he would never have to fully answer to his actions.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:18 PM   #168
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Daystar - 1973

While spending this last weekend in Canton, TX with another couple passing out Bibles and cards and tracts, I was speaking with this sister who had been in the Lord's Recovery since 1973. I had received the Lord Jan, 1972 and was meeting in Eldon Hall in Los Angeles. We were remembering all the places we lived and the people we knew and how much we had crossed paths with each other yet never meeting. One of the subjects that came up was Daystar Motor Homes. When my husband and I returned home we were sitting and fellowshipping concerning the weekend's time with this other couple. I mentioned Daystar and he said he wished after all these years that we still had the sales brochure of it. I "googled" Daystar Motor Homes and up pops 4 pictures of it. As I was scrolling down the topics I glanced at the link - Daystar - Local Church Discussions. I read every one of your posts or blogs. Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

I worked at Daystar from May, 1973 to May, 1974. I was a secretary to Philip Lee in the office. My husband also worked at Daystar and he worked in the plant in the Shipping/Receiving department. It seemed like for that year we lived, ate and breathed Daystar, not only 8 hour workday but taking packages to post office and LAX in the evenings. I want to clear up some of the inaccuracies given in these posts. You can respond with accusations, innuendos, rancor and bitterness, but I know what I lived and what I saw.

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Having said all this ... 3 of the coaches were displayed at the fairgrounds. All the female "models" were sisters in the church. None of them wore bikinis. This was an elegant, classy motorhome displayed for the very rich monied class of people. The selling price was $42,000 not the $72,000 as some posted here. Back in 1973 $42,000 was out of the majority of anyone's earnings.

I don't believe they even sold 1 during that time and shortly thereafter the oil embargo began. Lines around the gas stations were bad. Then you could only get gas on odd or even days, which ever number your license plate had. Not only was the oil embargo bad, but interest rates were high. The company went bankrupt shortly after that.

So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

And concerning LSM bailing out Daystar. It didn't happen. LSM is a non-profit organization and has to abide by the laws of the government, which means all the money goes back into the organization. The ledgers are open to anyone who wants to take a look. My husband drove Philip Lee home one time and was invited in. Philip Lee lived a modest life in the duplex next to Brother Lee. My husband sat in his kitchen and it was modest. I remember Philip Lee cutting up white envelopes at the office when mail came in and stapling them together to create a note pad. The Daystar letterhead was only used for special occasions and correspondence. This doesn't sound to me like someone living in extravagance? My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother. We knew Dave Higgins and the other brothers and sisters working at Daystar.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

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Old 09-10-2015, 03:17 PM   #169
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com View Post
BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters
Donnali,

Thank you and bless you for taking the time to come and post on LocalChurchdiscussions.Com. I have quoted what I consider the most important part of your post. This forum was started and maintained for former AND CURRENT members to dialogue regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement. Although not many current LC members have come and participated, I pray daily that more would come, register and participate in our discussions. The reason this forum seems so unbalanced - favoring the concerns, complaints and experiences of former members - is that so few current members have come here and taken advantage of this venue, the only such venue on the Internet exclusively designed and maintained for current and forum LC members.

Quote:
Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth.
I prayed this prayer at 17 years old when I first "touched" the Local Church in Orange County CA about 40 years ago. I also prayed this same prayer, albeit in a state of abject fear and confusion, about 20 years ago when making the heart wrenching decision to leave the Local Church. As so many have lamented over the years, I actually felt that I had not left the Church, but the Church had left me. And since those heady days of personal confusion and consternation, I have continued my seeking of the Lord and have continued to to pray that he would always keep me in the center of what he is doing on this earth. And you know what? He has answered my prayer! Please stick around and I'd love to dialogue with you about this! Anyway, there are dozens upon dozens of testimonies from former members. There are a few current LC members who participate. We would be happy and honored if you would consider registering and participating as much as your time and interest allows. We welcome EVERYONE, current or former members, but we especially want and NEED current members...even if they only want to come and "straighten us out"!

Speaking of being straightened out....I do appreciate your testimony of your experience with the Daystar situation. You have given us some very fascinating and insightful information. I'm assuming that you read my post about the experience of the designer of the Daystar, W.E. Miller. In the article I posted, the listing price of the Daystar was around "$70,000" - and this is coming from someone in a position to know. I know you said you couldn't find the brochure, but do you have anything else you could point us to to verify the "42,000" figure you gave? Also, it has been well documented that Timothy Lee was heavily involved in, and profited from the Daystar business, and not Phillip Lee. Maybe you could give us some corrected/further insight into this part of the story?

When you have some time I would like to dialogue with your contention about Witness Lee not having any control over the actions of his adult sons. Well, it is for this very reason that he should not have put them in charge of any commercial business, much less at the helm of a Christian publishing company. Untold havoc and damage - financial AND MORE IMPORTANT, spiritual, was done over decades because of Lee's setting his son's loose (against the strong concerns of many brothers and sisters who were aware of the character of these men). I'm not asking you to answer for Witness Lee per se, but I am going to challenge your defense of the seemingly indefensible. I'm sure you have a different view.


Here's the post I made about that W.E. Miller on 8/13:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

The following is an excerpt from this article and can be found towards the end of the article. Also there is a picture of a completed (maybe restored?) Daystar motorhome at the bottom right of the article.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm [B]connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.
"
----------------------------------------------
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:49 PM   #170
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

The brother or sister at the top made a very good plea. I'm all for the point of forgiving the thieves who stole from us, lied, cheated, hid the truth etc. But this type of forgiveness really comes from the Lord. Just as our friends at the top are so loving, overlooking, sweet, altogether for the Lord's move, to whatever extent they are this way, it is either of the Lord or it is theatrical.

I have a RCC neighbor who is 100% for the institution. She is 78 or 79 years, a divorcee of around 35 years, hard worker, plenty of high marks to me as a real member of our society. I still don't believe one iota of her belief in the RCC.
The same is true of the writer at the top. If they are LSM employees, no dice. If they are just deceived, I was too for 40 years. Just turned 85 and realize that we have a devil far more competent than we so our survival is of the Lord. I hang on to the scripture, Except the Lord build the house, except the Lord keep the city, all is vanity.

Praise the Lord, I still have hope and it is entirely of the Lord, none in the LC or the RCC

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Old 09-10-2015, 06:32 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Lisbon View Post
The brother or sister at the top made a very good plea. I'm all for the point of forgiving the thieves who stole from us, lied, cheated, hid the truth etc. But this type of forgiveness really comes from the Lord. Just as our friends at the top are so loving, overlooking, sweet, altogether for the Lord's move, to whatever extent they are this way, it is either of the Lord or it is theatrical.

I have a RCC neighbor who is 100% for the institution. She is 78 or 79 years, a divorcee of around 35 years, hard worker, plenty of high marks to me as a real member of our society. I still don't believe one iota of her belief in the RCC.
The same is true of the writer at the top. If they are LSM employees, no dice. If they are just deceived, I was too for 40 years. Just turned 85 and realize that we have a devil far more competent than we so our survival is of the Lord. I hang on to the scripture, Except the Lord build the house, except the Lord keep the city, all is vanity.

Praise the Lord, I still have hope and it is entirely of the Lord, none in the LC or the RCC

Lisbon
Bro Lisbon, I look back fondly on my early days in the LC, when I was totally into the delusion ; "The vision" they called it ; when I believed I was smack dab in the middle of God's move on the earth.

But I can't unscramble those eggs. Now I see that the whole local church, and all Lee devised, were just theatrics, pretending to be God's move on the earth. I too was once a great pretender. Those were happy days.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:08 PM   #172
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com
So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?
I think one of the big concerns about Daystar (at least for me) was why bro. Lee involved the churches in the first place. If he wanted a business, fine, he could have secured bank loans or outside investors. Although he had every right to present it as an "investment opportunity" to whoever was interested, by every account, the funding was mostly (entirely?) through saints, and the workers were mostly saints. That was just asking for trouble to being with.

I know that these events happened 40 years ago. Maybe it's not worth discussing that much, but I think a common concern is just the fact that this little chapter in LC history has so much mystery surrounding it. If the information on the internet is wrong, why haven't any LC leaders come forth to attempt to clear things up? I don't think anyone here would be opposed to that. The closest we have to any official account of Daystar is Philip Lin's book Sacrifice and Sail On, where he briefly discusses Daystar. It raises and interesting question, if Daystar is "old news", then why did he bring it up? It seems he has the willingness to provide an alternative narrative, but not discuss things point by point.

I haven't read anything before today of bro. Lee ever publically repenting for Daystar, so that is news to me. Whether he did repent or not, I think the larger issue isn't anyone's unwillingness to forgive him, it's that Daystar was simply a bad decision. Lets face it, everyone had enough respect for Lee that they probably would have been willing to do almost whatever he suggested. Did bro. Lee take advantage of that willingness to put his business idea into motion? It seems to me that he should have stuck to his ministry, things would have worked out much better for everyone.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:19 AM   #173
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Default Re: Daystar 1973

Donnali Peters, thanks for discussing that which you say we shouldn't be discussing.

By the way, we have a member here that was the accountant for Daystar, and who was kicked out of the LC, and refusing to recant, that he knew Witness Lee committed crimes.

So sis, maybe you were too idealistic back in those days to see what was really going on.

Much could be said, but why pop the bubble of someone still living in a dream world.

Blessings sis. Thanks for dropping in. Join up so we can talk some more. It's not like me, but I promise to be gentle.

Harold ...

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Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com View Post
Daystar - 1973

While spending this last weekend in Canton, TX with another couple passing out Bibles and cards and tracts, I was speaking with this sister who had been in the Lord's Recovery since 1973. I had received the Lord Jan, 1972 and was meeting in Eldon Hall in Los Angeles. We were remembering all the places we lived and the people we knew and how much we had crossed paths with each other yet never meeting. One of the subjects that came up was Daystar Motor Homes. When my husband and I returned home we were sitting and fellowshipping concerning the weekend's time with this other couple. I mentioned Daystar and he said he wished after all these years that we still had the sales brochure of it. I "googled" Daystar Motor Homes and up pops 4 pictures of it. As I was scrolling down the topics I glanced at the link - Daystar - Local Church Discussions. I read every one of your posts or blogs. Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

I worked at Daystar from May, 1973 to May, 1974. I was a secretary to Philip Lee in the office. My husband also worked at Daystar and he worked in the plant in the Shipping/Receiving department. It seemed like for that year we lived, ate and breathed Daystar, not only 8 hour workday but taking packages to post office and LAX in the evenings. I want to clear up some of the inaccuracies given in these posts. You can respond with accusations, innuendos, rancor and bitterness, but I know what I lived and what I saw.

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Having said all this ... 3 of the coaches were displayed at the fairgrounds. All the female "models" were sisters in the church. None of them wore bikinis. This was an elegant, classy motorhome displayed for the very rich monied class of people. The selling price was $42,000 not the $72,000 as some posted here. Back in 1973 $42,000 was out of the majority of anyone's earnings.

I don't believe they even sold 1 during that time and shortly thereafter the oil embargo began. Lines around the gas stations were bad. Then you could only get gas on odd or even days, which ever number your license plate had. Not only was the oil embargo bad, but interest rates were high. The company went bankrupt shortly after that.

So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

And concerning LSM bailing out Daystar. It didn't happen. LSM is a non-profit organization and has to abide by the laws of the government, which means all the money goes back into the organization. The ledgers are open to anyone who wants to take a look. My husband drove Philip Lee home one time and was invited in. Philip Lee lived a modest life in the duplex next to Brother Lee. My husband sat in his kitchen and it was modest. I remember Philip Lee cutting up white envelopes at the office when mail came in and stapling them together to create a note pad. The Daystar letterhead was only used for special occasions and correspondence. This doesn't sound to me like someone living in extravagance? My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother. We knew Dave Higgins and the other brothers and sisters working at Daystar.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters
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Old 09-11-2015, 01:46 PM   #174
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Thanks all for the responses to my post. The topic was Daystar and I worked there and I saw some posts asking about what Daystar was like. That post about sisters wearing bikinis to the fairgrounds for the presentation of Daystar was so off the wall, that I had to respond since I was there. I honestly don't know the inner workings of the Daystar business, nor the LSM business. I just worked in the office as a secretary. I know the church had no business in the motorhome business. Again, hindsight is 20/20. From what I understand it was Frank DeLuna and Timothy Lee that brought the idea to Bro. Lee. Brother Lee thought it was a good idea to make money for building meeting halls across the globe. Meetings halls would have been better served by the offering box for sure.

I would never claim to be an authority of anything, much less the inner workings of the accountings of either the business, LSM, or the church. I do know that when I put my offering in the box that I am giving my money to the Lord. The money goes out of my hand and into others. They have to stand before the Lord and give an account of that money, right? Do you honestly believe that we need to know where every penny goes? Once that money is out of my hands, I have no more control of it. And the Lord has continued to super abundantly bless me and take care of me. I do know that the church accounting books are open to all the saints at any time, at least in my locality.

Whether I am living in a bubble or a dream, the Lord knows. I enjoy Him daily in His Word, I am continually being constituted with Him. You want chapter and verse? I memorized the points and subpoints a long time ago ... lol I have experienced quite a lot these past 65 years. I don't want to live my life according to right and wrong. I want to live my life according to life and peace, don't you?

And I was there in that meeting when brother Lee asked forgiveness for Daystar. Anyone who says he didn't wasn't there. Again, you can ask specific dates of that meeting and I just can't remember, but I know what I know.

I am open for dialogue but I'm not a fighter and I hope whether you are in the LC or not that your life is being blessed by the Lord and that you continue to grow until maturity and are being built up where ever you are, so the Lord can gain what He needs at this time on the Earth.

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Old 09-11-2015, 02:37 PM   #175
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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I know that these events happened 40 years ago..
Perhaps I'm a disaffected former member, airing my sour grapes over and over again; I lost the vision, or never had it, and now justify my inability to "take the Lord's way" by pooh-poohing it all. There's some justification for that, admittedly. And look how happy and fulfilled our current LC member remains, 40 years later, even after being intimately involved in Daystar. So why not let go, really?

Yet the same logic could be used against WL: that he was a disaffected, fallen-away Baptist who spent the rest of his life griping about "poor, poor Christianity" because he couldn't hack it in the first place. How come WL got to incessantly judge everyone and everything, but we're supposed to get over it and let go?

On that note, why does the Bible say that an elder must have believing children, when the apostle of the age had "unspiritual" (WL's own term) children as his deputies? Because like with judging others, the apostle of the age has different rules than everyone else? We cover Noah's drunkenness, but everyone else has to be sober like the Bible demands.

As mentioned here, the current LC member Donalli Peters, though full of happy and fulfilling memories, seems to mis-remember which reprobate son they were dealing with. Timothy was the Daystar boss, the drinker and smoker, and Philip was "the Office", one who pawed over the help at LSM HQ. Different children.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:45 PM   #176
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Perhaps I'm a disaffected former member, airing my sour grapes over and over again; I lost the vision, or never had it, and now justify my inability to "take the Lord's way" by pooh-poohing it all. There's some justification for that, admittedly. And look how happy and fulfilled our current LC member remains, 40 years later, even after being intimately involved in Daystar. So why not let go, really?

Yet the same logic could be used against WL: that he was a disaffected, fallen-away Baptist who spent the rest of his life griping about "poor, poor Christianity" because he couldn't hack it in the first place. How come WL got to incessantly judge everyone and everything, but we're supposed to get over it and let go?
It's all to easy to develop a double standard about history. This is my concern about our sister's dismissal of the Daystar issue as "old history". Some things are worth forgetting, and for other events motto's such as "we will never forget" arise. By what standard do we evaluate LC history? Should we forget all the negative and only remember the positive? Obviously, that kind standard prevents learning anything from history. What if we were to forget both the negative and the positive? For example, since Lee has been gone almost 20 years, how about the local churches "forget the things behind" and move on to something besides his ministry. I'm sure they wouldn't like that suggestion. This is how the double standard develops. The dismissal of history becomes selective.

Admittedly, the negative events can be tricky, because no one is perfect, and all groups have blemishes here and there. My hesitation with dismissing the negative periods in LC history is because these things have always been presented as "closed matters", or as having been resolved when there is no indication that the situation was ever actually resolved to everyone's liking. For example, during the 2005 GLA "turmoil", I was told that the quarantine of Titus and others was needed to resolve that situation even though I had no clue who Titus or any of the others were. I was also told that to remain neutral was to be lukewarm. So here I was a young LCer with no idea what was going on, and I was being told by leaders what my position should be in regards to the situation. It hardly made any sense to me at all. It was confusing, and thankfully I eventually did the research to find out what really happened. When situations are handled in this way, they are anything but resolved, and thus I feel it is appropriate to discuss them for as long as necessary.

I believe it was Chris Wilde who told Steve Isitt that to address matters related to the 80's turmoil was to "reopen closed wounds". On the surface, it might sound like a reasonable stance. But one must move on to ask the question, was everything that happened during that time period ever fully resolved? If it is indeed resolved, could a LC member contact someone like John Ingalls without any negative recourse? As an example, a few years ago I heard the story about FTTA trainees who went door-knocking in the neighborhood around the training center. By chance, they happened to visit the home of a brother (who Terry told me was John Ingalls). Apparently, Ron was not happy about this visitation at all. Presumably he thought that whoever sent them out should have known where John lived. If Ron didn't want this situation to happen, it couldn't have been possibly prevented unless the trainees were made fully aware of "old matters". LC leaders don't want to address old history, but then when it comes up, they are not happy about what happens. They can't have things both ways.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:16 PM   #177
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Default Leave the Past in the Past

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I believe it was Chris Wilde who told Steve Isitt that to address matters related to the 80's turmoil was to "reopen closed wounds". On the surface, it might sound like a reasonable stance. But one must move on to ask the question, was everything that happened during that time period ever fully resolved? If it is indeed resolved, could a LC member contact someone like John Ingalls without any negative recourse?
If it is indeed resolved there's no need for internet forums or concern of reprisals for speaking the truth in love (even if it is contrary to LSM groupthink). Brothers who are currently out of favor would be received according to Romans 15:7.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:38 PM   #178
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Default Re: Daystar 1973

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Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters
Sister, please clear up inaccuracies regarding Daystar. Because the Daystar venture is so vague, it garners interest whether you're meeting with the local churches or not. One of the last LC home meetings I attended in Renton, WA several brothers engaged in a discussion on Daystar. Caught my attention, but I chose to leave the conversation between the two. A brother I previously served with in another locality also had expressed a keen interest in Daystar.

I believe everything you mentioned of Daystar's interior building material. I had heard much the same before. I am curious if a 440 engine was best suited for an RV.
You mentioned Francis Ball, you must have lived in the Anaheim area. That's where my family lived from January 1976-June 1979 prior to moving to Lake Arrowhead.
Another item to clear out regarding Daystar is it was said not Philip Lee, but Timothy Lee was the one who became wealthy as a result of Daystar. I wasn't even aware of Philip's involvement.
In your post you exhibited fondness for Al Knoch. Last I knew, he is still living in Arlington, Washington. The summer training of 1976, Al's wife and my mom took turns taking care of each others children during the evening training sessions. In retrospect, it's amazing considering my family and the Knoch family each had 5 children.

Your statement, "Let the past stay in the past under the blood", the content to respond to would be far off topic. Best suited for another thread.
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:44 AM   #179
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Default Re: Questions about Daystar

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Donnali,
Thank you and bless you for taking the time to come and post on LocalChurchdiscussions.Com. I have quoted what I consider the most important part of your post. This forum was started and maintained for former AND CURRENT members to dialogue regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement. Although not many current LC members have come and participated, I pray daily that more would come, register and participate in our discussions. The reason this forum seems so unbalanced - favoring the concerns, complaints and experiences of former members - is that so few current members have come here and taken advantage of this venue, the only such venue on the Internet exclusively designed and maintained for current and forum LC members.
I can certainly understand why not many current LC members would not come an participate. The environment is not much different than a brother or sister being summoned to the "fellowship room" for a formal meeting with elders, deacons, co-workers. Who would want to subject themselves to a "hornet's nest" environment? Due to the imbalance of the forum, for every pro-LSM poster there may be 10 contrary-LSM posters offering a response. For all, the focus is on forming dialog.

In my opinion, had there been a venue in the local churches for liberty in genuine speaking without fear of repercussions, there would be no need of forums such as this.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:12 AM   #180
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Default Re: Daystar 1973

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Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.
Dear sister Donnali, sorry to be so blunt, but your paragraph here displays excessive naivety.

First of all, no one in the Recovery at the time blamed Witness Lee for having reprobate sons, even though some who have since left would cite Paul's instructions in I Timothy 3.1-7 as satisfactory disqualifications for both Witness and Phillip.

I was active in the LC's for 30 years, before leaving in 2005-06, and here is what has deeply troubled me. Witness Lee told us all during the "storm" of the late 80's that if he "wanted to hire an unbeliever (referring to his son Phillip) as his own personal chef, that was his 'right,'" and we all had to agree with him. Who were we to tell him what to eat? But what Witness Lee purposely failed to tell us was that we too were all required to eat Phillip's toxic "cooking."

For years most of us believed that "the office" at LSM referred to a goodly number of ministry volunteers that transcribed messages, printed books, filled standing orders, etc. After the "New Way" began in the mid-80's, leaders and elders around the world suddenly learned that forced submission to Phillip was paramount to their continuation in the Recovery. Brothers in responsibility around the globe were required to kowtow in forced subjection to the whims of Witness Lee's drunk, abusive, and reprobate son named Phillip. Witness Lee was publicly chastising all the elders for how they "treated his office," while most of the saints were led to believe that their local elders were being rude to the serving sisters at LSM. Talk about deception!

Phillip's dominance over LC leaders, coupled with his molesting of sisters at LSM, is the real reason for the "storm" in Anaheim during the late 80's. Those are the facts! There is no way to spin them any other way! Read all of their accounts. Talk to any of them in person.

But instead of firing his pathetic son, Witness Lee fabricated conspiratorial lies about all of those brothers (like Ingalls, John So, Godfred, Knoch, Mallon, etc.) who dared to speak their conscience, stand up on behalf of the saints and the churches, and to be faithful to their Lord. All of these brothers suffered much for their faithfulness, yet neither Witness Lee nor his son ever repented for all the damage they did to leaders, churches, and the saints. The most I ever heard out of LSM was flippant comments like "mistakes were made, nobody's perfect, let him who is without sin cast the first sin, that's old news, time to move on, you need to forgive and forget, yada, yada."

Have you ever read the books of Samuel? That's not how the Lord treated David. Every man of God in scripture had to repent and take ownership of his failures.
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