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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 07-10-2011, 09:09 AM   #1
aron
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Default What have we learned?

On the "Bereans" forum, I was interested in the discussion regarding what we had learned, and with that in mind, I was reading another christian forum, "Network Norwich" in England, regarding what some posters were calling "real" (versus "false" or "hypocritical") christianity.

On the one hand, I could understand the points made by the commentators, how "christianity has failed" in so many ways, from the Inquisition to the witch crazes to the destruction of the indigenous peoples in North and South America to the Crusades. Yes, yes, and yes.

But, I was struck by the very "negative tone" of the different essays.

http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Foru...adID=19809#new

Especially the last essay, on "church" versus "ekklesia". I am sympathetic to the idea that "church" is a poor substitute for "ekklesia". But I am wary of the proposed remedy, as well. If you look at the source, "aggressive christianity . net", they don't seem very balanced, to me.

http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/

They don't seem very safe. Who will restrain the madness of the prophet?

Perhaps there are some things I can learn from my time in the Lord's Recovery Church. First, don't base your fellowship on a ministry which bashes or criticizes others. Yes, it is true that "christianity" is poor, degraded; even in many aspects it is arguably Babylonian. But if we base our ministry on how bad christianity is, and the need for some "restoration" or "recovery" church, then we are like the man praying at the temple, saying, "Thank God I am not like that poor, degenerate slob over there". Because we are all poor, degenerate slobs. See the parable in Luke 18:9-14 We should not trust in ourselves, that we are any better than poor degraded christianity. In fact, we are poor degraded christianity. Don't justify yourself by how bad the other guy is. That is poor logic and it won't work in God's eyes.

Second, if you agree with a ministry's plank that you need to "come out of her" and join one of these "purified remnant" groups, set apart from degraded christianity, then who will safeguard the flock when the leaders err, as all leaders occasionally do? You now have convinced yourself that you are "wrecked evermore" from "fallen christianity", and when the shepherds begin to beat the sheep, where can you go? You have already said that you will "Never go back anymore", and now your elder (or apostle or whatever title they claim) gets caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar (think, "Daystar" or similar situation here), and what do you do?

Anyway, those are some lessons from along the way, I suppose.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:45 AM   #2
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Thanks aron, good post and lots of food for discussion!

It seems to me a lot of Witness Lee's ministry was a kind of "addition by subtraction" - the old "if your house burns down it makes mine better". He got some of this from Watchman Nee for sure, but Lee took it to a whole new level. No doubt Nee and Lee were not the first at this kind of harsh criticism of their brothers and sisters in Christ, but they are the ones many of us are most familiar with.

In my experience it is the Christians that are the most insular and isolated that become the most critical of others. They hide themselves from others, and over time form their own set of norms and culture, then when others look and act different from them they go on the attack. The worst part is that while they are secluded in their own little world they don't get a chance to see what God is doing among his people.

I have seen that the Lord is doing a marvelous work among Christians in the past 15 to 20 years, and this includes a strong movement of cooperation of many churches within a city. This is not a forced or man-made kind of oneness but a genuine move of the Holy Spirit. I have more to say but have to wait until later.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:19 PM   #3
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It seems to me a lot of Witness Lee's ministry was a kind of "addition by subtraction" - the old "if your house burns down it makes mine better".
Unless he decreases, how can you increase?
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:13 PM   #4
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Unless he decreases, how can you increase?
If there's any take-home message from the gospels, it seems to me, it is that the kingdom of God is not a zero-sum game. Jesus said to treat your neighbor as if he/she were yourself. Give to those who cannot and will not repay you. Be nice to those who don't "deserve" it. Bless those who curse you; pray for those who persecute you.

It is the opposite of our natural concept, that the other has to go down for me to rise.

That's why knocking the pathetic state of "christianity" is not a successful christian strategy in the long run. Because we are all connected. There is no "them". It is all "us". Setting our ministry or group in contradistinction to the wretchedness of others will probably not please the Father.

Another example of this natural thinking is seen in the Lord's Recovery Church push to go on the colleges and universities to get the "good material" for "building up the body". In the gospels, Jesus told us to squander our resources on the "bad material"; the ones who have no means to repay us. Then will our reward be great in heaven.

So looking to knock down others, and build ourselves up, will ultimately be a futile work.

The irony is that Lee was correct in many of his rebukes. The clergy-laity system, for example, does in fact "nullify the function" of the members, at least to some degree. So we'd all nod our heads and think, true, true. But who was Mr. Lee, or any of us, for that matter? All of us are at least partly compromised. The only success story, the only Christ, is Jesus. We christians can only endeavor to associate ourselves with Him, and look to Him for mercy. Castigating the failures of others will not bring His mercy. Ultimately, mercy must triumph over judgment. We should look at ALL of our christian bretheren and sisters and say, "The reproaches of them that reproach you fell on us also."

Mr. Lee used to excuse the problems and shortcomings in the Lord's Recovery Church by likening it to a kitchen. He said that in a kitchen there is a mess while the food is being prepared. However, he lacked mercy on the mess in christianity. Unfortunately, what you do unto others, so it will be done to you. If we base our ministry on the denigration of others, ultimately we will share the same condemnation we dish out.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:34 AM   #5
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If there's any take-home message from the gospels, it seems to me, it is that the kingdom of God is not a zero-sum game. Jesus said to treat your neighbor as if he/she were yourself. Give to those who cannot and will not repay you. Be nice to those who don't "deserve" it. Bless those who curse you; pray for those who persecute you.

It is the opposite of our natural concept, that the other has to go down for me to rise.
In my other studies (outside these discussion boards and not about the LRC) I am learning that even those that the Evangelical and Fundamental sides of Christianity consider fallen or nearly apostate are not really as they have been labeled (well mostly not). While there are some truly apostates out there, in terms of the primary errors, it might be that the more zealous are the worst in that they, as aron has said, are not loving any others even half as much as they love themselves.


Since I was completely "off the grid" for about a week and the Berean site is "down for maintenance," I have no idea where the source of this thread is going. But these are the things that I have learned from these two forums, coupled with my other studies:
  • God is greater than all our petty differences.
  • Christianity is robust and is not nearly so divided as I was taught in the LRC.
  • Language does not enhance truth, although it can help to clarify it.
  • Language does not increase the level of worship or improve it except to the extent that it corrects errors in thought.
  • "Decisions for Christ," or "line in the sand" conversions are not the only way people come to Christ. Note that at the wedding in Canaan, the disciples began to be impressed. But it was when he stilled the storm that they really began to believe in him. Their conversion was by listening and observing and becoming convinced.
  • Based on the above, there are many Catholics that are, as we would term it "saved" even though they cannot decipher the line in the sand. They observe, are taught, begin to follow along, and eventually believe. Mixed in there are many who simply do the motions and the works and never believe.
  • The "rapture" and dispensational theology did not exist before JN Darby. I don't necessarily disbelieve it, but I do not center my belief on one day achieving it (if alive) any more than I hope for a mansion on the 14th tee on a golf course, down Mulberry lane, GS (Golden Street) and can just appear anywhere I want without our present modes of transportation. If it actually happens, OK. If not, I am not concerned.
  • God has revealed himself in stages. Not in modes. While the NT speaks of the Father, Son and Spirit with intent, the OT speaks of God.
  • In the OT, God had the Israelites wipe out certain enemies. Maybe because they had been given enough time to repent but remained hard against God. maybe for other reasons. I do not buy the position of some current writers that suggest it was simply written down that God was behind it but he actually was not.
  • The revelation of God in the OT is of the God who creates, provides, protects, judges, etc. While we can find types of Christ in certain men of the OT, they were not called god, God, or Christ. It is only in the look-back from the NT that we can call it a type of Christ. In the OT times, it was merely righteousness expressed in men who sought God.
  • God did not order all Jews to return to Jerusalem after the captivity. In fact, one of the books of the OT was written by a servant of the King of Persia who allowed him to go build the wall of Jerusalem and then return to his service.
  • Despite some of the problems that the Jews caused the early Gentile churches, it was the presence of Jews all over the Roman empire that aided in the spread of Christianity.
  • Those who did not return to Jerusalem were not in captivity. In fact, they spread as free men/women all over the earth. How else was the earth to be blessed through them.
  • The synagogue system was not some sinful anomaly. Jesus used it and spoke in it and never said a word against it. Synagogues provided a community gathering focused on God each week. Going to Jerusalem was never more than the feasts.
  • Restated, there is no "recovery/restoration" of Jerusalem position for the LRC to hang any kind of "going to Jerusalem is superior to being in Galilee and going to a synagogue" theology.
  • Mentioning some churches by reference to the city in which the 12 or so people who were int it were found does not provide a rule about the ground of the church.
I have also learned that Nee and Lee misrepresented the scripture on many occasions. Some of the more notable ones are:
  • 1 Timothy does not tell anyone to teach God's economy. It says that God's economy is the result of teaching right things.
  • God's economy is not "simply dispensing."
  • The Last Adam did not become the Holy Spirit.
  • The Father is not the Son, nor the Spirit. (And no others either)
  • 1 Corinthians 3, talking about the wood, hay, and stubble, is talking about the builders (Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc.) and not the Corinthians.
  • 1 Corinthians 14 does not say that all can prophesy. It says that all of the 2 or three that are designated to speak can prophesy.
  • "Nicolaitan" is almost clearly not clergy/laity.
While not about the theology, I learned that Lee was willing to slander righteous men to protect a lecherous son whom he left in charge of his ministry. According to Paul, that made Lee unqualified for ministry.

The list goes on and on. But based on those, I cannot accept the teachings of Nee and Lee as anything more that philosophical musings of, in one case, a well-intentioned Christian, and in the other, a desire for power by yet another Christian.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:25 PM   #6
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Mr. Lee used to excuse the problems and shortcomings in the Lord's Recovery Church by likening it to a kitchen. He said that in a kitchen there is a mess while the food is being prepared. However, he lacked mercy on the mess in christianity.
What? On one hand Witness Lee is right if you use that analogy. There will be a mess. If I liken problems and shortcomings in the recovery to a messy kitchen, I would clean up the mess. Problems and shortcomings will happen in any Christian environment. Key is how the mess is handled (i.e. problems and shortcomings). Do you rinse and wash the dirty dishes, or do you allow the dirty dishes to pile up?
I have considered myself fortunate to have met with a Christian assembly that doesn't excuse problems and shortcomings.
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:02 PM   #7
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[*]Christianity is robust and is not nearly so divided as I was taught in the LRC.
Excellent point. I found christian assemblies with impressive corporate testimony. I found assemblies where the testimony in the children and teen-agers put the LRC to shame.
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[*]Language does not enhance truth, although it can help to clarify it.[*]Language does not increase the level of worship or improve it except to the extent that it corrects errors in thought.
I appreciate both statements. And as you elsewhere noted about James' epistle, it's not what you say, but what you do that matters most.

When we see the inadequacy of our own communicative efforts, it should serve to humble us from the notion that we can parse God's language down to the truth.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:57 AM   #8
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When we see the inadequacy of our own communicative efforts, it should serve to humble us from the notion that we can parse God's language down to the truth.
This is what we all need to learn. It is a huge problem in the LRC, but still a significant problem in Christianity in general, at least the Evangelical/Fundamental wings. We are all too often lost in a forest of actual truth trying to force two words to wag the dog into something that isn't really there.

Yet, at some level, it is in parsing the scriptures Lee used, along with their contexts that showed me many of his errors. If you actually follow the grammar of the sentence within the paragraph within the whole passage, there is suddenly a completely different meaning and truth. And that is the one that was put there. Not the context-less gibberish like "Jesus is just the Spirit."
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:18 AM   #9
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...at some level, it is in parsing the scriptures Lee used, along with their contexts that showed me many of his errors.
True. And it is in parsing the writings of one another that leads us into endless wranglings, when we are not careful. One of the shortcomings of the internet forums is that ultimately it is just about words. And language, as you put it, has its limitations in bringing us to the truth.

My solution is not become emotionally invested in my words or ideas any more than I do those of Mr. Lee or anyone else. So when OBW or Igzy or Ohio come along and "abuse" my fondest notions, I have to accept their demolition as being potentially as real, or true, as my construction. And their proposed alternatives are perhaps superior to mine.


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...If you actually follow the grammar of the sentence within the paragraph within the whole passage, there is suddenly a completely different meaning and truth.
This is easily what I have enjoyed most about the forums. You get a fresh look at that supposedly familiar, and previously comfortable, passage of scripture, and suddenly your conceptual map becomes drastically re-arranged. In a way, it's a continuation of the initial thrill you get when you discover the truth of God's saving love.

Embloldened by OBW's pevious efforts:

--I discovered that "giving elders who serve well a double honor" may suggest that there are non-serving elders, i.e. older folks, who also deserve [single] honor. Mayhaps an "elder" is someone who is more mature, aged, or experienced, versus "...a delegated authority from headquarters". See 1 Timothy 5:17, e.g.

--I discovered that "ekklesia" may have meant something other than what we call "church", if you look at the context in which the word was used. Acts 7:38 is an example, but hardly the only one. Maybe "ekklesia" meant something more like "meeting", which means you could have multiple ekklesia in one urban area without being divisive or whatever. Paul seems to suggest this when he notes ekklesia in the homes at the end of his epistles to the Romans and Colossians.

--I discovered that God really likes it when we praise and bless and thank and honor and glorify Him. God really, really, really, likes it.

--I discovered that Mr. Lee's focus on the human spirit led him, and us, to neglect the human soul.

Here's a Lee proof-text: "This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him..."

Mr. Lee says that Zechariah 12:1 puts the human spirit on equal footing with the heavens and the earth. But look at Matthew 16:26: "And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?" Here the soul is worth more than the whole world.

Of course, the way to gain our soul-life is to lose it; yes, I know that. But it suggests to me that what God is after here is our soul. Not an incidental point.

--I learned that the hierarchical, top-down leadership structure of the LRC is no different from the world and most christian organizations. Surprise, surprise.

And that Jesus, conversely, said if you want to be greatest in heaven, be the least here on earth. Surprise, surprise.

--I learned about Daystar. Never heard about that one in my many conversations about the glorious history of the local churches. Only heard vague references to "rebellions" and "storms".

--I learned that there is one vision, one speaking, one trumpet. And that vision, that speaking, that trumpet, is none other than the Person of Jesus the Nazarene. He is God's Oracle for this time and henceforth for every time. There is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Anyone who insinuates themselves into "deputy authority" is suspect, in my jaundiced eyes.

Today, that "deputy authority" is found as the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit. But each one of us has the anointing. To hold up one anointing over another is to create hierarchy.

(Of course, there is clearly a celestial hierarchy. But to set up a worldly, power- and fear-based hierarchy is a doomed attempt to re-create and imitate the celestial one.)

--Lastly, as John said, the things we could learn probably could not be contained in all the books to be written. But these things have been written (hopefully) so that you might know that Jesus is, and remains, the kurios: the Master.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:50 AM   #10
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True. And it is in parsing the writings of one another that leads us into endless wranglings, when we are not careful. One of the shortcomings of the internet forums is that ultimately it is just about words. And language, as you put it, has its limitations in bringing us to the truth.

My solution is not become emotionally invested in my words or ideas any more than I do those of Mr. Lee or anyone else. So when OBW or Igzy or Ohio come along and "abuse" my fondest notions, I have to accept their demolition as being potentially as real, or true, as my construction. And their proposed alternatives are perhaps superior to mine.
I am so sorry. When did I do that?
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:05 AM   #11
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When did I do that?
I was being semi-facetious. Whenever someone else isn't completely "one" with every word of my speaking/writing, I could, in my rampant subjective and self-oriented perspective, interpret that I am being "persecuted", "abused", "attacked", etc.

So I was characterizing the back-and-forth of exchanging and critiquing ideas on the forums in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Sorry if it didn't come across.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:55 AM   #12
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I was being semi-facetious. Whenever someone else isn't completely "one" with every word of my speaking/writing, I could, in my rampant subjective and self-oriented perspective, interpret that I am being "persecuted", "abused", "attacked", etc.

So I was characterizing the back-and-forth of exchanging and critiquing ideas on the forums in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Sorry if it didn't come across.
I'll try better in the future, but don't expect the same courtesy from Igzy or OBW.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:58 AM   #13
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I'll try better in the future, but don't expect the same courtesy from Igzy or OBW.
I resemble that remark!
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:22 AM   #14
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I resemble that remark!
This forum is so much more dulcet.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:37 PM   #15
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But you all, including aron, are always busy abusing my fondest notions. But I have found that looking headlong into what used to be an abyss has provided much freedom and changed many of my notions. I'm sure that many of them are still fairly fondly held. But the ones that are beginning to be held most fondly are those that provide room for happy disagreement, for more searching, and for significant change in notion.

A recent post elsewhere by the editor of Rob Bell's Love Wins (a book that takes a very interesting position on Hell — and one that I generally do not agree with) has questioned whether tribalism within evangelicalism is worse than the liberalism that almost takes the Bible as a good guide and Jesus as a worthy mentor. Ultimately, anything that does not confess that Jesus is come in the flesh is worse. But tribalism has been the problem ever since the early counsels. Rather than get together and hash things out, even if it takes centuries, there is a rush to take sides, declare the other wrong, heretical, or even apostate, and then shut them out.

Sounds like the LRC. But it is very heavily the history of Protestantism in general. And the EO/RCC split. I honestly see a lowering of this wall in many quarters. There is hope without declaring that one group is it and demanding that everyone join or die. ("Cake or death!")
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:15 PM   #16
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Idealization is a mental mechanism in which the person attributes exaggeratedly positive qualities to the self or others. When viewing people as all bad, the individual employs devaluation: attributing exaggeratedly negative qualities to the self or others. [source: Wikipedia] An extreme form of devaluation might be called demonization, although, in the present context I am using the word "demon" in a metaphoric sense only.

I was reminded of this problem yesterday when a friend mentioned the human tendency to make heroes of people. That would be an example of idealization. I would like to suggest that we idealized Witness Lee when we were in the church. The problem for us now is how to arrive at an objective [fair and balanced to quote a much abused phrase] view of Mr. Lee without engaging in devaluation/demonizing him. The possibility that we suffered emotional wounds while in the church or upon leaving makes objectivity all the more difficult for us to achieve this.

So I throw this out there for your discussion. Do you think we idealized WL when we were in the church? Do you think we ever demonize him now? How can we tell the difference? Is part of the group behavior to idealize in-group members and dynamic of devalue out-group members? For example, did we ever do that in prayer meetings? Could there be a "piling on" tendency that occurs even on a website like this. Again, if so, what can we do about it?
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:35 PM   #17
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Idolizing Lee needs to be balanced with demonizing him. It may be a an undesirable job, but somebody has to do it. Personally, the idolizing of Lee demands the best weapon, that of, mocking Lee & his idealized systematized theology. Mocking may be ugly, but not as ugly as scamming the saints, conning the saints, and, as Lee put it after ripping off the saints with Daystar, taking their virginity. And mocking is free, and requires no donations

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Old 07-22-2011, 02:09 PM   #18
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Idolizing Lee needs to be balanced with demonizing him. It may be a an undesirable job, but somebody has to do it. Personally, the idolizing of Lee demands the best weapon, that of, mocking Lee & his idealized systematized theology. Mocking may be ugly, but not as ugly as scamming the saints, conning the saints, and, as Lee put it after ripping off the saints with Daystar, taking their virginity. And mocking is free, and requires no donations.
I understand that there is a need to vent feelings and to say things we probably should have been said when we were members. There is a general need to re-evaluate everything. I feel similarly in so far as I have not even talked about this stuff for years. At the same time, I think there is the need for us to take responsibility for the fact that we enabled Witness Lee, Mel Porter and others like them to do what they did by passively [and in some cases actively] going along with the program for as long as we did.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Idealization is a mental mechanism in which the person attributes exaggeratedly positive qualities to the self or others. When viewing people as all bad, the individual employs devaluation: attributing exaggeratedly negative qualities to the self or others. [source: Wikipedia] An extreme form of devaluation might be called demonization, although, in the present context I am using the word "demon" in a metaphoric sense only.

I was reminded of this problem yesterday when a friend mentioned the human tendency to make heroes of people. That would be an example of idealization. I would like to suggest that we idealized Witness Lee when we were in the church. The problem for us now is how to arrive at an objective [fair and balanced to quote a much abused phrase] view of Mr. Lee without engaging in devaluation/demonizing him. The possibility that we suffered emotional wounds while in the church or upon leaving makes objectivity all the more difficult for us to achieve this.

So I throw this out there for your discussion. Do you think we idealized WL when we were in the church? Do you think we ever demonize him now? How can we tell the difference? Is part of the group behavior to idealize in-group members and dynamic of devalue out-group members? For example, did we ever do that in prayer meetings? Could there be a "piling on" tendency that occurs even on a website like this. Again, if so, what can we do about it?
Great questions, ones I have struggled with for the past decade or so. Yes, some idealized WL. No doubt about it. I like this word because it dodges the word "idolize," a more extreme word, which forces an up/down debate. When I was younger, I'm sure I did this to some degree. In one training in 1978, I actually felt WL was writing new books of the Bible. So I ran my thoughts by a brother I was staying with, and he graciously helped my understanding. Thank the Lord for that. Others may have not had any balancing or correcting words, and their views of WL were encouraged to soar into outer space.

Titus Chu, a regional leader in Cleveland, made an interesting comment back in 1998 saying, "I see WL as a man, but the Blended brothers see him as a god." This brief description says a lot about the difference between the GLA and the rest of the Recovery.

I have always believed that those of us with dysfunctional upbringings, and that's about all of us, were more vulnerable to idealization and its subsequent "side effects." The more dysfunctional, the more potential damage to us, and the greater tendency to demonize WL upon departure. I have attempted to reduce my level of "demonization" by addressing WL's actions, rather than his person. I can't know and judge his heart, but I can know what he did and how people were hurt because of it.

I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:50 PM   #20
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Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
Yes, that's what I would like to avoid. But it's a sorting process that might get messy at times. This time around I would like to avoid groupthink; that is, where group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints. There was a lot of that in the LC. For example, in the business meetings which were a total sham in the churches I attended.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:54 PM   #21
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I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
I probably have a jaded view of this, but to me it seems as though there aren't that many good things to be taken out of it. But I don't have the same experiences the rest of you have, so I may be wrong.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:20 PM   #22
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One way toward greater objectivity is to place the object under consideration in a larger context. With that in mind, compare WL and the LC with L Ron Hubbard and Scientology or Pope Benedict XVI and the Roman Catholic Church or how about David Karesh and the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones and the folks at Jonestown. Does WL and the LC look any better to you?
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:21 PM   #23
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I probably have a jaded view of this, but to me it seems as though there aren't that many good things to be taken out of it. But I don't have the same experiences the rest of you have, so I may be wrong.
How is your experience different?
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:26 PM   #24
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How is your experience different?
I grew up outside the LR and have never been a part of it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:36 PM   #25
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I grew up outside the LR and have never been a part of it.
So then what is your connection to it? Why are you interested in this discussion?
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:43 PM   #26
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I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
1 Corinthians 5:6 "Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? "

Sorry brother, but your statement about trying to sift out the leaven from what was good reminds me of a caller Walid Shoebat (a brother who was called out of Islam into Salvation through Christ) took on a radio show. This caller posed Walid this question:

"Isn't there some good in the Koran?"

His answer to her is the same I would give to you:

"Isn't there SOME good in it? Isn't there some good in the Koran? Of course, sure, there's some good in it! But imagine you are thirsty in the desert, and I have here a clean glass of pure, cold water to give to you. Now, before I give it to you, I reach into my pocket and I take out a small flask of a colorless liquid, and unscrew the top. drip-drip-drip, I pour it into the glass and then hand the glass to you. 'Here you are, drink up!' I say.

You would look at it suspiciously, and you would ask 'What did you put in that water?' All I say to you is 'This? It's nothing. That glass is 99.9% pure water, go ahead - drink it!"

Are you sure you want to drink from this cup Ohio? Can you bear to drink the cup?

You don't need Lee or LSM, no one does. This is why I refuse to call it even by thier own acronym "LRC". That very name is an abominable lie. The Lord was not behind that movement, although there were many there within the churches who surely know and love Him.

You have and know Christ Jesus as Lord, Brother. Follow Him and Him alone. If you want to look back on your past then say, "I don't know what I gained there Lord, I don't have any of what I had there left. But I praise You Lord, because You know what I need, even when I don't... and You have a purpose for all things that You do."

Remember; we should be here as Paul, to preach Christ and Christ crucified - not Lee and Lee vilified.

In Christ,


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Old 07-22-2011, 04:38 PM   #27
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So then what is your connection to it? Why are you interested in this discussion?
Perhaps you should check a certain intro thread made by an unregistered guest to find out my particular connection to the LC and my interest in it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:52 PM   #28
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I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
Well we have had a lot of discussion on the meaning of leaven in the Bible. I have come to the conclusion through all those discussions that WL understanding and teaching of leaven is inaccurate. So I would encourage you to discard that teaching first.

My reasoning is this. The OT said "purge out the old leaven" and this referred to once a year removing all of the leaven from the house for a week. In order to make leavened bread the Israelites would have kept a cup of sour dough by the hearth. Once a year this sour dough would have been thrown away. To make a new batch they would make unleavened bread, remove a lump and put it in the cup. A week later it would be a new batch of sour dough. They would then put this into the dough every time they made bread and before cooking they would remove a lump to go back into the cup for sour dough. God did not tell them to stop making leavened bread, rather his emphasis was on "the old" leaven. After all, if leaven signifies sin then why did Israel eat leavened bread 51 weeks out of the year?

So, if you consider it, the worst thing about the teachings of WN and WL is that the LRC refuses to purge out the old leaven. If instead WN and WL were merely treated as those who baked bread for many years and passed on the art to us, and now the LRC is full of those baking bread, the errors of the teaching would seem minor and easy to correct. The real issue is his teachings are becoming codified. The Lord said to purge out the old leaven, not venerate it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:46 PM   #29
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So I throw this out there for your discussion. Do you think we idealized WL when we were in the church? Do you think we ever demonize him now? How can we tell the difference? Is part of the group behavior to idealize in-group members and dynamic of devalue out-group members? For example, did we ever do that in prayer meetings? Could there be a "piling on" tendency that occurs even on a website like this. Again, if so, what can we do about it?
Who is we? Idealized Witness Lee? I did not. He was a gifted brother. During high school I saw him speak several times a year at conferences. Aside from that, his ministry did not have impact on me directly whom Gene Gruhler did have.
Once again who is we? My understanding practically of demonizing WL would to be in total denial there was nothing helpful/beneficial from WL's ministry. I cannot say that. Many who left LRC cannot say that. Personally I've appreicated his early ministry in North America.

Yes, group behavior has been to if not idealize, but speak glowingly of in-group members. Out of group members are devalued. If you've spent time in the LRC, you know the descriptive words. Cold, poisoned, lost the vision, negative, critical.
In prayer meetings, I can't say I've heard anyone devalued. Prayer meetings were to pray.
What exactly do you mean by piling on? There is a tendency to beat a dead horse.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:33 PM   #30
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1 Corinthians 5:6 "Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? "

Sorry brother, but your statement about trying to sift out the leaven from what was good ... Are you sure you want to drink from this cup Ohio? Can you bear to drink the cup?

You have and know Christ Jesus as Lord, Brother. Follow Him and Him alone.
Brother NFNL, we are on different wavelengths here.

We have fine folks who have left the LRC, and have discarded Christ their Lord and Savior, their Bible, all their Christian friends, and have thrust head first into alcohol, drugs, witchcraft, atheism, etc.

So when I speak about discerning "the good from the worthless," (as in Hebrews 5.14) we are obviously speaking of different things.
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:00 PM   #31
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Well we have had a lot of discussion on the meaning of leaven in the Bible. I have come to the conclusion through all those discussions that WL understanding and teaching of leaven is inaccurate. So I would encourage you to discard that teaching first.

My reasoning is this. The OT said "purge out the old leaven" and this referred to once a year removing all of the leaven from the house for a week. In order to make leavened bread the Israelites would have kept a cup of sour dough by the hearth. Once a year this sour dough would have been thrown away. To make a new batch they would make unleavened bread, remove a lump and put it in the cup. A week later it would be a new batch of sour dough. They would then put this into the dough every time they made bread and before cooking they would remove a lump to go back into the cup for sour dough. God did not tell them to stop making leavened bread, rather his emphasis was on "the old" leaven. After all, if leaven signifies sin then why did Israel eat leavened bread 51 weeks out of the year?

So, if you consider it, the worst thing about the teachings of WN and WL is that the LRC refuses to purge out the old leaven. If instead WN and WL were merely treated as those who baked bread for many years and passed on the art to us, and now the LRC is full of those baking bread, the errors of the teaching would seem minor and easy to correct. The real issue is his teachings are becoming codified. The Lord said to purge out the old leaven, not venerate it.
My use of the phrase "purge out the leaven" has nothing to do with the O.T. practice of the Israelites. My understanding is based on I Cor. 5.6-13, Gal 5.7-9, and Matt. 16.11-12. Here Jesus instructs His disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" referring to their teachings. These teachings had to be removed or purged from the disciples. After the Lord gave them this warning, He took them to Philippi, and asked them, "who do men say that I am? Obviously the leaven of the Pharisees hindered them from knowing who Christ really was.

In Corinth, the church there was "glorying" in evil things. Their thinking and teachings about moral matters was leavened, so Paul warned them to purge out these teachings of malice and wickedness. Paul even went further to instruct the church to separate themselves from those who practice such evil. To the Galatians, Paul reminded them of how well they were running after Christ, but were leavened by the teachings of the Judaizers. They had not been persuaded by Him who had called them, but by leavened teachings which affected the whole lump.

Both Jesus and Paul struggled to expose the teachings, practices, ways, patterns, thoughts, principles, methods, etc. which collectively could be considered as "leaven." These much be purged, so that what remains can be a new lump of fine flour, representing Christ and His pure word. One brother has wisely said, "we got lots of extras" in the LC's. These extras are the leaven which require purging. The Lord never said to throw the "lump" out with the leaven.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:08 PM   #32
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Who is we? Idealized Witness Lee? I did not. He was a gifted brother. During high school I saw him speak several times a year at conferences. Aside from that, his ministry did not have impact on me directly whom Gene Gruhler did have.
Once again who is we? My understanding practically of demonizing WL would to be in total denial there was nothing helpful/beneficial from WL's ministry. I cannot say that. Many who left LRC cannot say that. Personally I've appreicated his early ministry in North America.
Yes, group behavior has been to if not idealize, but speak glowingly of in-group members. Out of group members are devalued. If you've spent time in the LRC, you know the descriptive words. Cold, poisoned, lost the vision, negative, critical.
In prayer meetings, I can't say I've heard anyone devalued. Prayer meetings were to pray.
What exactly do you mean by piling on? There is a tendency to beat a dead horse.
Well said. Amen.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:32 PM   #33
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My use of the phrase "purge out the leaven" has nothing to do with the O.T. practice of the Israelites. My understanding is based on I Cor. 5.6-13, Gal 5.7-9, and Matt. 16.11-12. Here Jesus instructs His disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" referring to their teachings. These teachings had to be removed or purged from the disciples. After the Lord gave them this warning, He took them to Philippi, and asked them, "who do men say that I am? Obviously the leaven of the Pharisees hindered them from knowing who Christ really was.

In Corinth, the church there was "glorying" in evil things. Their thinking and teachings about moral matters was leavened, so Paul warned them to purge out these teachings of malice and wickedness. Paul even went further to instruct the church to separate themselves from those who practice such evil. To the Galatians, Paul reminded them of how well they were running after Christ, but were leavened by the teachings of the Judaizers. They had not been persuaded by Him who had called them, but by leavened teachings which affected the whole lump.

Both Jesus and Paul struggled to expose the teachings, practices, ways, patterns, thoughts, principles, methods, etc. which collectively could be considered as "leaven." These much be purged, so that what remains can be a new lump of fine flour, representing Christ and His pure word. One brother has wisely said, "we got lots of extras" in the LC's. These extras are the leaven which require purging. The Lord never said to throw the "lump" out with the leaven.
Well, I think regardless of OT or NT, if you use the term "leaven" to refer to teachings you are using an analogy. The metaphor is still the same metaphor. The reason for purging could be that it is old, or that it is evil, or that it is malicious, but whatever the reason, the practice of purging would still be the same.

The quote that I was commenting on said you wanted to figure out "which of WL's teachings were leavened and purge them". My understanding of this analogy is that all teachings are leavened. The leaven isn't the factor that determines it is evil, or malicious, or old. Teachings act similar to leaven by causing the whole lump to be leavened (just like WN teaching that you have one church in one city affected the entire LRC). So Jesus's words were "the bread of life" and the Body of Christ is likened to a loaf of bread "we being many are one lump". WN's teachings spread like leaven and have leavened the whole Body of Christ. The fact that they act like leaven doesn't make them evil, or old, or malicious. So why is the Lord's Body likened to unleavened bread? The NT age was a time to purge out the old teachings, not because they were bad, or evil, but because they were old. Prior to the incarnation and crucifixion of Christ they might have been fine, but after the crucifixion it was time to start anew.

Second, what is truly the most damaging teaching of the LRC or of LSM? My feeling is that they forbid the saints from purging out the old teaching. Say for example that as a result of the Life study messages there were 100 saints that stood up and began to minister. John So, JI, etc. No one stopped them, no one defamed them, no one excommunicated them, no one required that they filter everything through the LSM office. If that were the case any other negative teaching of WL would be irrelevant. It would have been corrected by the Body of Christ, he would have been balanced by others, he would have been rebuked, chastened, etc. The truth would have prevailed and PL would have been properly dealt with. So instead of canonizing his teachings they should have been used for a springboard for many others to go forth and speak. WL often said that he was standing on the shoulders of giants. So why all of a sudden did they forbid anyone else from standing on their shoulders?

Third, I would contend that because they didn't purge out the old leaven but instead took the erroneous concept that WL ministry was the end all and be all, it was the effort to make that so that brought in the malicious and evil teachings. Is the MOTA a spark plug that ignites everyone else or is he a lone burning coal that everyone has to huddle around to stay warm. The second view, to me, is pitiful and pathetic, but that is the one the LSM took, the BB's carry, and the LRC pushes. My point is not to accept the teaching of the MOTA but to point out how pathetic their view is of this MOTA. The Apostle Paul lit a fire that has spread around the world, like leaven, so that there are more than a billion saints worldwide. In contrast the only thing the LSM will raise up with their MOTA teaching is parrots. The LRC is not for everyone, it is only for those willing to parrot WL.

Why did this happen? Because he teaches that leaven signifies sin. If instead you understand that just like gathering manna every day, the labor in the word also must be done daily. You can't live off of yesterday's manna and you can't live off of yesterday's teacher. On the other hand if you understand that you have to regularly purge out your old teaching and start anew, then we would have taken a different path. If you understand that teachings are like bread, then it is easy to understand you can't save 20 or 30 year old bread and feed a church with it. You have to make bread fresh every day, at least every week.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:39 PM   #34
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Well, I think regardless of OT or NT, if you use the term "leaven" to refer to teachings you are using an analogy... .
I think we are talking past each other, like NFNL, we are on different wavelengths.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:55 PM   #35
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I think we are talking past each other, like NFNL, we are on different wavelengths.
The experience I got from the LRC was to study the word for myself, and to minister the word to others. I learned how to "bake bread". Prior to coming into the LRC I could not understand the Bible, after being in the LRC I can feed others. That is what I take from it. I don't discard that.

As for all the other teachings they are not important to me. I have a Bible, everything I need is in there. I rarely refer to any WL teachings except to comment on them. Even when I met with the LRC I rarely used LSM materials to prepare for speaking a message.

No doubt there is a certain amount of training and no one wants to reinvent the wheel, but regurgitating teachings is not feeding the saints.

There were a lot of other teachings about one church one city, etc that I have come to realize is merely an emphasis on the oneness in the Body of Christ. The fact that I do not meet with the LRC does not in any way suggest I have compromised on my prizing the oneness. On the contrary, it was only after I was clear that the LRC only gave lip service to the oneness of the Body that I felt the peace to leave those meetings.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:12 PM   #36
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The experience I got from the LRC was to study the word for myself, and to minister the word to others. I learned how to "bake bread". Prior to coming into the LRC I could not understand the Bible, after being in the LRC I can feed others. That is what I take from it. I don't discard that.

As for all the other teachings they are not important to me. I have a Bible, everything I need is in there. I rarely refer to any WL teachings except to comment on them. Even when I met with the LRC I rarely used LSM materials to prepare for speaking a message.
That's exactly what I was talking about -- purging out the old leaven -- learning to discern what is good from His word, and what are the leavened teachings to be discarded.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:14 PM   #37
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That's exactly what I was talking about -- purging out the old leaven -- learning to discern what is good from His word, and what are the leavened teachings to be discarded.
I don't consider myself a theologian, nor do I aspire to be one. But, thanks to my experience in the LRC I do not feel intimidated by theologians nor can they bully me.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:08 PM   #38
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Brother NFNL, we are on different wavelengths here.


So when I speak about discerning "the good from the worthless," (as in Hebrews 5.14) we are obviously speaking of different things.
I don't think we are, brother.

You had said:

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I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
You did not say, "I need to discern which teachings of Christ, of the Bible, of the Truth had been leavened." - you speak rather of Lee's teachings. You are saying that some of Lee's teachings were good, and that you can somehow separate the good from the bad. That's a difficult if not impossible task, and that's what 1 Corinthians 5:6 tells us.

Imagine the sum of Lee's ministry - his entire set of Life Studies, commentaries, messages, etc. etc. are likened to a loaf of Wonderbread. Now I come and place this loaf of Wonderbread in front of you, and say "Here my brother is food to nourish you. Only beware the leaven of the bread. That will poison you, sicken you, and kill you." Would that loaf be of any use to you at all? HOW do you pick leaven - yeast - out of the loaf to eat the nourishing substance in that loaf? More importantly, do you not see that even if you were able to exactly chemically separate what was left of the yeast from rest of the components of the dough, is it not still true that the presence of yeast in the bread earlier changed it's very composition and nature? No matter what you do, the dough was effected by that yeast, and it can never again be the same.

I began reading this morning from an abridged edition of Jessie Penn-Lewis' "War on the Saints". What touched me immediately was the Forward to this edition - please read this through carefully:

"John Wesley, in dealing with overbalance and fanaticism, uses the word enthusiam, and says: "Enthusiasm is undoubtedly a disorder of the mind; and such disorder as greatly hinders the exercise of reason. Nay, sometimes it wholly sets it aside: it not only dims but shuts the eyes of understanding. It may, therefore, well be accounted a species of madness; of madness rather than folly: seeing a fool is properly one who draws wrong conclusions from right premises; whereas a madman draws right conclusions, but from wrong premises. And so does an enthusiast. Suppose his premises are true, and his conclusions would necessarily follow. But here lies his mistake: his premises are false. He imagines himself to be what he is not, and therefore, setting out wrong, the farther he goes, the more he wanders out of the way."


My God my God! Does this very word not speak to the nature of the LSM system in it's entireity, and to your own quest to discover and remove the leaven specifically? Lee's premises are false - and his ministry was built entirely upon one premise: That the Bible contains MORE THAN ONE GOSPEL - that it has a LOW and a HIGH Gospel... that there was a "different gospel" to be preached, that no one else on Earth was preaching: God's Economy! We are warned very specifically within Scripture to stay away from those who preach a different gospel (Didn't Paul say: " I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned." (Galatians 1:6-9) and also "..there shall be false prophets among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies... through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you." (2nd Peter 2:1-3 excerpted), and did He not praise the Church in Ephesus when He said "you have tried those who say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars." Revelation 2:2. In Lee's case, we ALL ignored Christ's admonition. I am not singling you out brother - far from it: we were ALL decieved. That's indeed a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow it we must.

How were we so easily deceived? Because, I think, we were seduced. We were seduced by a man who really was very gifted at writing and constructing clever arguments to make his case. We were deceived because he built a system that gave us something that many Christian groups don't have: a true community of fellow saints. That was sweet, I confess it - but the plan behind that community was most foul: It was a plan that would see us isolated from our brothers and sisters in Christ, the True Body Universal, and would make us more susceptible to the deception within, so that even when we heard troubling news, we immediately discounted it and determined that to even raise questions would be rebellious.

We became the enthusiastic slaves of the system: we helped build a Corporation built on book publishing, funded by our donations, built up by our time spent constructing halls and housing... and all to do what? To reach the lost for Christ? To preach the gospel (even the so-called 'Low gospel') to the unbelieving world? To provide shelter for the poor and food for the hungry? To reach out to those in prison or those in distress? No. None of those things. The money and time we invested in LSM was used to build up it's offices and it's corporate profits and launch lawsuits against fellow believers to protect those assets and that income... and ultimately to raise first one man (Lee) and today a consortium of them up (the so-called 'Blended Brothers') on pedestals where they do not belong. Where no man belongs, in the place we are to reserve for Christ and Christ alone (Ephesians 5:23b "Christ is the head of the Church, His Body, of which He is the Saviour.")

Shame on us all! We were taken in because we did not study enough of the The Word, because we were not able to discern for ourselves what was the truth. Because we failed to test every spirit. We failed to trust our own discernment. We came to imagine we were something that we were not: the only true church, the only overcomers in a world full of perverse 'christians' who didn't know Him as we knew Him. The truth is, we thought we were rich and increased with goods and had need of nothing. We thought we had it all. But we were poor and wretched and miserable and blind and naked. (Rev 3:17-18).


The only defense against false apostles is found in staying in the Word. This is something each of us needs to do daily. And don't just study - obey. That's the part left entirely out of LSM's ministry: The need to obey Christ and the commands of the Father. It's left out because that would put you under the light yoke of Christ, and out from under the heavy and burdensome yoke of LSM.

In Christ,

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Old 07-23-2011, 03:06 PM   #39
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You did not say, "I need to discern which teachings of Christ, of the Bible, of the Truth had been leavened." - you speak rather of Lee's teachings. You are saying that some of Lee's teachings were good, and that you can somehow separate the good from the bad. That's a difficult if not impossible task, and that's what 1 Corinthians 5:6 tells us.
I think we are playing word games here. I have already explained myself, and gave some examples to clarify my posts. When I first heard WL, I was a very young, but born again believer in Cleveland. Growing up in the Catholic schools, I had very little Bible knowledge. I had barely read the Bible. I was at that time doing the same purging work in my mind concerning all the Catholic teachings I had received.

In my first visit to Anaheim for the Revelations training, Lee taught me, for example ...
  • That the book was the "revelation of Jesus Christ" v1.1 and not the revelation of frogs and scorpions -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me that the book was a book of signs v.1.1 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me that John was the writer, and he was exiled on Patmos for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ v1.2 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me that those who hear these words and keep them is blessed -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me there were 7 churches in Asia, and many details about them -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me that v.1.4 shows us the Triune God, the Father Son and Spirit -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me about Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of the dead, indicating that He resurrected as the Firstborn Son v.1.5 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me how He loves me and has loosed us from our sins by His blood v.1.5 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
  • WL taught me that we are His kingdom, and we are all priests to serve God v.1.6 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
Help me out here brother NFNL. I have only mentioned the first 5 verses of my first training with WL. I had 10 more years of Life Study trainings after this. And you want me to throw out all WL teachings? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:11 PM   #40
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I began reading this morning from an abridged edition of Jessie Penn-Lewis' "War on the Saints". What touched me immediately was the Forward to this edition - please read this through carefully:

"John Wesley, in dealing with overbalance and fanaticism, uses the word enthusiam, and says: "Enthusiasm is undoubtedly a disorder of the mind; and such disorder as greatly hinders the exercise of reason.
Brother NFNL, be careful what you read of Penn-Lewis and John Wesley. They are both as "leavened" as Wonder Bread.
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:28 PM   #41
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Brother NFNL, be careful what you read of Penn-Lewis and John Wesley. They are both as "leavened" as Wonder Bread.
Yes, you might catch her Jezebel demon, that killed the Welsh revival.
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:52 PM   #42
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  • WL taught me that the book was a book of signs v.1.1 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
Help me out here brother NFNL. I have only mentioned the first 5 verses of my first training with WL. I had 10 more years of Life Study trainings after this. And you want me to throw out all WL teachings? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
I'm outside doing the yard work thinking about how all the Christians I know talk about going to heaven, hoping they can play golf, and praying their beloved cat will be there too! They talk about the pearly gates and the streets of gold -- now remember that gold is over $1400/oz by now. They talk about skipping down the golden streets to their buddies mansion ... how ridiculous!

And you want me to throw out WL's teachings?!? You want me to return to my superstitions? You want me to return to the ignorance of my Christian "childhood?" WL taught me many solid foundational truths of the Bible. O sure, I could have learned them from someone else, but I didn't. I learned them from that Lee. Many things I also learned from other brothers in the LC's. After close to 4 decades, how can I distinguish exactly what I learned from who?

NFNL, let me be honest and frank. If we define leaven like this, then we must conclude that every teacher on earth is leavened. So we must do what some have done leaving the LC's, they crawl into their little cave, with the Bible cracked occasionally, and live in their pure unleavened bliss.
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:45 PM   #43
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Let me be frank then too, Ohio:

Lee taught you many biblical truths, but he didn't invent them and he wasn't the first to discover them. He was a liar when he said he "stood on the shoulders of giants." What he did was 'name drop', and then act like he had absorbed everything from everyone who came before - chewed it up, processed it and digested it and then excreted it for us to consume. That's a lie. Did he read some of them? Undoubtedly. Were his teachings in line with theirs? Some of them, but far from all. He went down his own road.

Read books by the people Lee claims to have studied, and you will see that these people teach many different things from Lee - that they hold to different ideas, interpretations, and that according to their writings, were they alive today, they would be appalled by that man and what he had to say.

Listen to the tone you take towards brothers and sisters in Christ in your post; is it one of Love? Of course not! Why not? Because you were raised up on Lee's teachings - and he had NO love for members of the Body who would not submit to his interpretations and teachings... and so it also hard for you. You see one who is weaker in the faith, and you express (although I cannot speak to what you feel) contempt. That's Lee through and through.

If you don't think abandoning teachings known to be built on false premises is the right thing to do, then you should take it up with God - because that is precisely the instruction He has given us in His Word: and He demands a pure and spotless Bride.

I didn't tell you to throw out the Bible. Far from it. I told you to throw out Lee's interpretations. Did he have some insights? Sure, but they weren't his - he's not unique. Pick up the books of others, look outside LSM's walls to the vastness of the Body and forgetting the things that are behind reach forth unto those things which are before, and press toward the mark for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 3:13-14 paraphrased)

This forum is populated, unfortunately, with many people who continue NOT to press forward - NOT to forget the things which are behind - but to instead look back with nostalgia and say, 'man, I thought we were on top of the world... I thought I had so much.' You know what, Lot's wife did the same thing: and look what happened to her.

I believe it was OBW who has said that his parents couldn't bear to leave LSM because they couldn't bear to think that they'd wasted so many years of their lives on something that just plain wasn't right. (Sorry Mike, I am working off of memory here and if I am atributing this to you falsely, then please correct me as I do not mean to misrepresent you). How many others here are in the same boat as Mike's parents?

This forum is dominated by threads on LSM's history - about Phillip and Timothy and 'rebellions' etc. etc. This isn't healthy. If you want healing, you need to stop dwelling on the past and worrying at these wounds.

ToGodAlone asked a question on another page: "How long did it take you all to get over it?" he asked. A lot of the people who come to this forum can't give him an honest answer to that question - because they're still not over it.

PS: As regards Penn-Lewis and Wesley - I will use discernment myself as the Bible instructs us to do when reading their writing. I do not hold either up as anything more than a brother or sister in Christ, as prone to sin and error as am I. Thank God for His Son and His Cross and for bearing the weight of our sins upon it! "Living He loved me, Dying He saved me, Buried He carried my sins far away. Rising He justified, Freed me forever: One day He's coming - Oh Glorious Day!"

What a pity Lee despised the cross. Tore them from the very buildings LSM purchased to use as meeting halls. Taught the saints not to wear or display them as they were part of 'pitiful Christianity'. Without the cross, not a one of us would be redeemed. Not a one.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:01 PM   #44
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Let me be frank then too, Ohio:

Lee taught you many biblical truths, but he didn't invent them and he wasn't the first to discover them. He was a liar when he said he "stood on the shoulders of giants." What he did was 'name drop', and then act like he had absorbed everything from everyone who came before - chewed it up, processed it and digested it and then excreted it for us to consume. That's a lie. Did he read some of them? Undoubtedly. Were his teachings in line with theirs? Some of them, but far from all. He went down his own road.

Read books by the people Lee claims to have studied, and you will see that these people teach many different things from Lee - that they hold to different ideas, interpretations, and that according to their writings, were they alive today, they would be appalled by that man and what he had to say.

Listen to the tone you take towards brothers and sisters in Christ in your post; is it one of Love? Of course not! Why not? Because you were raised up on Lee's teachings - and he had NO love for members of the Body who would not submit to his interpretations and teachings... and so it also hard for you. You see one who is weaker in the faith, and you express (although I cannot speak to what you feel) contempt. That's Lee through and through.

If you don't think abandoning teachings known to be built on false premises is the right thing to do, then you should take it up with God - because that is precisely the instruction He has given us in His Word: and He demands a pure and spotless Bride.

I didn't tell you to throw out the Bible. Far from it. I told you to throw out Lee's interpretations. Did he have some insights? Sure, but they weren't his - he's not unique. Pick up the books of others, look outside LSM's walls to the vastness of the Body and forgetting the things that are behind reach forth unto those things which are before, and press toward the mark for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 3:13-14 paraphrased)

This forum is populated, unfortunately, with many people who continue NOT to press forward - NOT to forget the things which are behind - but to instead look back with nostalgia and say, 'man, I thought we were on top of the world... I thought I had so much.' You know what, Lot's wife did the same thing: and look what happened to her.

I believe it was OBW who has said that his parents couldn't bear to leave LSM because they couldn't bear to think that they'd wasted so many years of their lives on something that just plain wasn't right. (Sorry Mike, I am working off of memory here and if I am atributing this to you falsely, then please correct me as I do not mean to misrepresent you). How many others here are in the same boat as Mike's parents?

This forum is dominated by threads on LSM's history - about Phillip and Timothy and 'rebellions' etc. etc. This isn't healthy. If you want healing, you need to stop dwelling on the past and worrying at these wounds.

ToGodAlone asked a question on another page: "How long did it take you all to get over it?" he asked. A lot of the people who come to this forum can't give him an honest answer to that question - because they're still not over it.

PS: As regards Penn-Lewis and Wesley - I will use discernment myself as the Bible instructs us to do when reading their writing. I do not hold either up as anything more than a brother or sister in Christ, as prone to sin and error as am I. Thank God for His Son and His Cross and for bearing the weight of our sins upon it! "Living He loved me, Dying He saved me, Buried He carried my sins far away. Rising He justified, Freed me forever: One day He's coming - Oh Glorious Day!"

What a pity Lee despised the cross. Tore them from the very buildings LSM purchased to use as meeting halls. Taught the saints not to wear or display them as they were part of 'pitiful Christianity'. Without the cross, not a one of us would be redeemed. Not a one.
We are getting no where here. You either have not read my posts, or have decided not to address my points.

You have judged all those who "populate this forum." You have decided who is pressing forward and who is looking back and worrying about the past, who is healing and who is not. You judge me for expressing contempt for weaker members, but who do I hate, and show contempt for? Who said I never abandoned teachings based on false premises? Prove your claims.

Then you tell me that you have discernment concerning others' writings such as JPL and JW, all the while denigrating me for doing the same with WL's teachings. Is that not hypocrisy? Why can only you have discernment but not me? Why do you get to berate me with condescending tone, but I can't even plead my case concerning how I interpret leaven?

Are you just having a bad day? Everyone has those. You sure seem to have changed recently, and all over this one little comment I made yesterday ...
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I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.
I wrote that in response to what I felt was a heartfelt inquiry by Zeek in post #16. You'd think I desecrated the temple or something worse by the way NFNL has come after me.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:04 PM   #45
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This forum is so much more dulcet.
I must have been dreaming. :verysad: More like a nightmare.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:52 PM   #46
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NFNL, you seem to have some very strong opinions. But I could never imagine, from my own experience, of comparing the LRC to Sodom. I can not imagine any basis for that, but I am speaking from my limited experience. 2nd, i would say that my 20 years spent in the LRC were spent studying the Bible with more energy and prayer than at any time in my life. Yes, WL was way over hyped, even then, but that is not to say that his speaking wasn't full of light and grace, at least while he was still doing Life Studies of the NT. Finally, I do have many fond thoughts of the LRC, but the vast majority of them have to do with saints that have nothing to do with WL, or the LSM. These were genuine saints and real experiences of the Lord.
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:40 AM   #47
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NFNL, you seem to have some very strong opinions.

I do have many fond thoughts of the LRC, but the vast majority of them have to do with saints that have nothing to do with WL, or the LSM. These were genuine saints and real experiences of the Lord.
Brothers - all of you - I am honestly sorry if my strong opinions have offended you. Let me please speak as clearly as I might as my intention was not to offend, but rather to enlighten. We are not only to encourage one another, after all, but also to correct that which harms not only only the Body but even it's members.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2

I too have fond memories of the saints I met in LSM. We still have a banner picture they made for us when we left Winnipeg hanging in our bedroom. We just had a couple over this past week who came through Calgary to visit and spend time with us. We still pray for them, and they, I am sure, still pray for us. We love them, and I'm not just saying that - I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

But the point is, we talk on this board about the damaging effects of looking at Scripture through "Lee colored glasses". Filtering everything we read through Lee, we know we wind right back up in the system.... but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry, and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done.... and here's why:

Lee taught us that he knew more than any other church leader who came before him, right? Lee believed he couldn't be wrong and he believed he had an answer for everything, correct? Lee taught us to read his material and his material only, to listen to his messages and his messages only, to spend time - as much as humanly possible - in an environment where only what Lee had to say was focused upon and expounded upon again and again... do we agree? What did that produce? What did we become?

1) We started to use Lee's vocabulary. We called ourselves "The Lord's Recovery" - and we believed we were recovered from fallen Christianity. We were set apart and above our fellow saints elsewhere. Some of us believed only we were the Body of Christ. We still use it today here on this board! All this talk of 'releasing messages' instead of 'delivering sermons' - what is that about? I'll tell you: When Lee says 'Release a Message' it means: "Here is what the Lord gave me, and now after I have held it a while for myself, I am going to release it to you." How arrogant! How proud! How wrong! The messages were his, not the Lord's! In short: We became proud.

2) We believed that since Lee had all the answers, we didn't need to read our Bibles for ourselves. We could look to the footnotes and get the answers. We believed that if we discerned something different in the Scriptures from what Lee found, we must be wrong. We quenched the Spirit! Is it any wonder that it can take years to recover from where we were? Sin has consequences, and in quenching the Spirit we sinned deliberately against our God - forsaking Him and His leading for Lee and his. Again: We quenched the Spirit.

3) Lee taught us to pray loudly in his way, not Christ's way. We believed this was the only way to pray. Arrogance! Christ Himself told us exactly how to pray - in secret, so that the Father who hears in secret will reward you - but we made a show of it, praying loud and proud so the other saints could be impressed with how much like Lee we were becoming! We sought approval of men, and not of God.

4) Lee taught us to sit and stand in prayer, but never to kneel... even though one day, every knee will bough. (Romans 14:11 excerpt). How many times did I stand in that meeting Hall, convicted to kneel, but to proud to do so because everyone else in the Hall would have been scandalized? What a fool I was! Forgive me Lord! We forgot that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom (psalm 9:10 & 111:10)... we lost all fear of Him.

5) Lee taught us to despise the cross, it was far too low a gospel. The cross was merely part of a process to make us into Godmen - and nothing more. My daughter was reprimanded for wearing a cross to church - a cross with which she preached that 'low' gospel to her friends at the age of nine... a cross she had asked for, and was proud to wear.

"The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Again: We despised the cross.

6) Like Lee, we became proud and arrogant towards fellow Christians. We expressed that contempt in our speech and in our actions, refusing to meet with them - which is absolutely against the teaching of the main man upon whom Lee claimed to stand: Watchman Nee (who was a genuine brother in Christ). But what did Christ say about our brothers and sisters?

"Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

“And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfis welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:3-6

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." Romans 14:1

We refused to receive 'weaker members', we held them in contempt and thereby caused many to sin.

7) Lee taught us to that our love for members is for members alone. If you are not a part of our group, you were not to receive our love. That included family members, friends, and those who once were of us but now left.

"If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. Prophecy and speaking in unknown languagesand special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!" 1 Corinthians 1:8

We had no real Love.

...So let's summarize:

LSM made us proud, unloving, bigoted Christians who thought we had it all. We spent our money and our time building a financial giant to churn out more propaganda, and did not learn to go out and preach the gospel. If we did reach out to others, it was to gain them for 'The Recovery' and further divide the Body of Christ. By this we lost our testimony. We quenched the Spirit and began to believe we needed Lee to tell us what to think and believe.

What did we REALLY gain?

In Christ,

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Old 07-24-2011, 11:51 AM   #48
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Brothers - all of you - I am honestly sorry if my strong opinions have offended you. Let me please speak as clearly as I might as my intention was not to offend, but rather to enlighten. We are not only to encourage one another, after all, but also to correct that which harms not only only the Body but even it's members.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

But the point is, we talk on this board about the damaging effects of looking at Scripture through "Lee colored glasses". Filtering everything we read through Lee, we know we wind right back up in the system.... but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry, and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done....
I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I felt to stop reading your post and respond to this first. This phrase is troublesome, "but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry." You say "we" so I have to assume you still have conflict at home, perhaps your wife still reads the messages by WL. I believe this is a personal decision which each former member has to address on their own. It's a common practice for Christians to read teachings and books about the Bible. There are bookstores and websites full of books. All of these are flawed, because they are not the word of God, and that's why some believers will not read anything but God's word. They just want to be detoxed of man's words. All other books must be received with discernment.

Now let me say something personally, having been actively receiving the ministry of WL for about ten years, from the mid-70's to the mid-80's. At some point in the mid-80's during "the new way," I pretty much lost my appetite for his ministry, finding it unappetizing and boring, without the inspiration that once existed. This forum actually has been helpful to me to discover the reasons why his ministry had lost the anointing. After this point, the only messages and books I read were those the church was involved with. Back in the early 90's, I canceled my LSM Standing Order, after one of the Blendeds rebuked us for letting the ministry books accumulate dust.

This next phrase "and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done...." for sure has come up in prior posts directed at me. This misunderstanding distorts the facts, and perhaps this is the source of the conflict. I never encouraged anyone to go to WL's books and "gleen only the good" from them. Read my posts again. My comments are based on the reality that those of us who have left the Recovery are already filled with teachings which we know are leavened and toxic to Christian walk. What shall we do with all that we received while in the LC's? That is the question I addressed.

As I posted above, some former members have unfortunately "chucked it all" following their departure from the LC's. They threw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. They could not differentiate what was of God and what was of man. This is most unfortunate. Thus we have heard of some who have left the faith, being shipwrecked, and dove head first into alcohol, drugs, alternative lifestyles, atheism, new age religions, etc. It surprises me that by addressing these very real tragedies, you would feel that I am showing "contempt" for the weaker believers. This is just the opposite of what I am attempting to do on this forum.

My goal initially on these forums was to "discover what happened to us," and to provide others with information I thought could help them. Many have thanked me over the years. Part of that process is to identify those things which were unhealthy, leavened, or toxic so that our faith would remain. Our love for the Lord and His word would be restored. Many posters have come and gone over the years, and did appreciate the forum information and insights.

Perhaps some other posters, who have known me longer, could also step in to provide some help here. I have PM'd the moderator.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:00 PM   #49
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2) We believed that since Lee had all the answers, we didn't need to read our Bibles for ourselves. We could look to the footnotes and get the answers. We believed that if we discerned something different in the Scriptures from what Lee found, we must be wrong. We quenched the Spirit! Is it any wonder that it can take years to recover from where we were? Sin has consequences, and in quenching the Spirit we sinned deliberately against our God - forsaking Him and His leading for Lee and his. Again: We quenched the Spirit.
I take issue with the use of the term we in the previous paragraph. It is definitely not true. It may be your experience but not mine. When I came into the LRC they didn't have a RcV. All you had, at most, was the translation for the last book that was done during the life study training and the footnotes. Everyone came to meetings with non LSM Bibles and there was very little use of footnotes. I watched as EM and RG promoted the footnotes, sold the footnotes and developed the teachings concerning using them in the meetings. But, his approach "did not work for me" so I ignored him. I never had the experience of looking at the footnotes and finding answers, though I certainly heard others share that testimony, I didn't know what they were talking about and left it at that. I did not believe that WL had all the answers, my only burden when I came to the LRC was to learn how to read the Bible. I did hear others speak that way, but there were certainly many that didn't feel that way, at least in my experience. Nor did I feel I was wrong if I saw something that WL didn't. There are many examples and if you want I will share some. I once put together a 20 page report on the precious stones in the NJ, in the report I differed with WL interpretation on Jasper. As a result he decided the entire study was not worth using. However, I stood by my decision and didn't change. Also, WL taught that based on the NT verses the dimensions of the NJ would be a Cube and therefore it is not a practical design of a city. I felt he was wrong, that the NT description describes a hemisphere, and enclosing a city within a dome would match the description, something Buckminster Fuller recommended doing. I also published that as well.

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3) Lee taught us to pray loudly in his way, not Christ's way. We believed this was the only way to pray. Arrogance! Christ Himself told us exactly how to pray - in secret, so that the Father who hears in secret will reward you - but we made a show of it, praying loud and proud so the other saints could be impressed with how much like Lee we were becoming! We sought approval of men, and not of God.
Again, I take issue with the use of the term "we" and "us". First of all, Ray Graver did a pretty good study of the teaching of pray reading, he provided quotes from quite a few highly respected Christians including Martin Luther and George Muller, and Hudson Taylor. He quoted quite a few Bible verses as well. He published this as a small booklet on pray reading. The point was that this concept of praying the Bible is not new, or unique to WL but has been practiced for thousands of years. 2nd, I was never taught that this is the only way to pray. 3rd, if you are going to have a prayer meeting, or pray during a meeting it is rather impractical to do the praying in secret. Jesus also taught "my house is a house of prayer". By that did He mean that the temple was filled with tiny closets that hundreds of Israelites could hide in and pray? That is absurd. Paul talked about when you pray in a meeting. If you don't like pray reading, fine. But, I was never taught it is the only way to pray, nor is it unscriptural, at least the way I practiced it (I cannot speak for everyone).

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4) Lee taught us to sit and stand in prayer, but never to kneel... even though one day, every knee will bough. (Romans 14:11 excerpt). How many times did I stand in that meeting Hall, convicted to kneel, but to proud to do so because everyone else in the Hall would have been scandalized? What a fool I was! Forgive me Lord! We forgot that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom (psalm 9:10 & 111:10)... we lost all fear of Him.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that anyone would be scandalized by someone kneeling while praying. The idea is totally absurd to me and has no basis in my personal experience.

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5) Lee taught us to despise the cross, it was far too low a gospel. The cross was merely part of a process to make us into Godmen - and nothing more. My daughter was reprimanded for wearing a cross to church - a cross with which she preached that 'low' gospel to her friends at the age of nine... a cross she had asked for, and was proud to wear.
"The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction[/color]! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
Again: We despised the cross.
No, I have many experiences of the cross from my days in the LRC. That was where I learned of the cross. Now no doubt the LRC was highly averse to any "idols" and WL did teach that a cross as a pendant was an idol. You can not equate that with despising the cross anymore than someone having a problem with a painting of "Jesus" can not be equated with despising Jesus.
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......So let's summarize:

LSM made us proud, unloving, bigoted Christians who thought we had it all. We spent our money and our time building a financial giant to churn out more propaganda, and did not learn to go out and preach the gospel. If we did reach out to others, it was to gain them for 'The Recovery' and further divide the Body of Christ. By this we lost our testimony. We quenched the Spirit and began to believe we needed Lee to tell us what to think and believe.

What did we REALLY gain?

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast
If you would share your testimony as "Yours" then I would have no issue in receiving it. But if you continue to attempt to share your testimony as my testimony I will correct you.

As to the summary --

1. LSM had a limited influence on my life. I speak this as one that served in the LSM printing materials for about 3 years, who spent 18 months building the Irving hall, which was an LSM project, and who spent years in the FTTT. Despite all of that I would still put LSM influence on my LRC experience at less than 10%. I don't disagree that you can look at WL's writings and find quotes that are clearly proud, bigoted, and unloving. Did that make us that way? Once again I could easily point to saints as evidence that you are right and likewise I could point to saints that were evidence you were wrong. The biggest balance for me to this influence was the gospel outreach I was involved in from my first day in the LRC. I may be an exception to the rule thanks to David C, but my experience in Houston was to preach the gospel daily. I find that is a very humbling experience, a great antidote to the proud, bigoted, and unloving influence. Also I do not agree with your characterization of my gospel preaching at all. That said, you may be accurately describing a lot of gospel work in the LRC today, but again, your experience is not mine.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:04 AM   #50
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Ohio,

You are where I was a few years ago. I had plenty of Bible knowledge before the LRC. But they gave me more. And I have now learned that some of it was bogus.

Lee taught many correct things because he taught something on everything and the core of the LRC is evangelical. But, as you have noted, there is now found to be a lot of leavened teachings in there. The answer is not to toss out all of things Lee taught. It is to be open to the finding of the errors — the leaven — in them.

No, Lee did not err to say that John penned Revelation. And it is about signs. But from almost the beginning of that training were original and unoriginal things taught that were not correct. If you have a good background, it is easier to toss out any thought of Lee and go back to the old sources and then see if anything he taught can be added back.

But you are in a different place. Unless you want to be almost without foundation in Christian faith, you have to leave what you learned from Lee around you as you become clear on what to purge and what to keep. I do not envy your position. It is not simple. It would be so much easier to start by just dumping Lee. But you need a strong base and it would appear that you did not have that before the LRC.

Don't let anyone, me included, tell you how you have to go about dealing with the LRC. It is your path. We might or might not be helpful.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:30 AM   #51
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Perhaps you should check a certain intro thread made by an unregistered guest to find out my particular connection to the LC and my interest in it.
OK. Gotcha. I checked it and posted on it. Thanks.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:36 AM   #52
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Ohio,
But you are in a different place. Unless you want to be almost without foundation in Christian faith, you have to leave what you learned from Lee around you as you become clear on what to purge and what to keep. I do not envy your position. It is not simple. It would be so much easier to start by just dumping Lee. But you need a strong base and it would appear that you did not have that before the LRC.
OBW, you might have an easier journey down in the Bible belt because of some solid Bible training in your youth. I did not. I grew up literally not even knowing anyone who was not Catholic. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools. Later on I learned differently about some of them, but I never heard about being "born again" until I was 21 years old and a colleague befriended me. Before the LC's, I had less than a year as a real believer, yet so little time to study since I went to school at night.

Perhaps you missed my point about "dumping Lee." Some who have done this have also "dumped Jesus." I have mentioned this several times. That is the context of my disputed comments about "discerning the good from the bad." I just don't understand why this is so hard to understand. I can only conclude that "what we have here is a failure to communicate."
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:45 AM   #53
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Who is we? Idealized Witness Lee? I did not. He was a gifted brother. During high school I saw him speak several times a year at conferences. Aside from that, his ministry did not have impact on me directly whom Gene Gruhler did have.
Once again who is we? My understanding practically of demonizing WL would to be in total denial there was nothing helpful/beneficial from WL's ministry. I cannot say that. Many who left LRC cannot say that. Personally I've appreicated his early ministry in North America.

Yes, group behavior has been to if not idealize, but speak glowingly of in-group members. Out of group members are devalued. If you've spent time in the LRC, you know the descriptive words. Cold, poisoned, lost the vision, negative, critical.
In prayer meetings, I can't say I've heard anyone devalued. Prayer meetings were to pray.
What exactly do you mean by piling on? There is a tendency to beat a dead horse.
The "we" questions were intended to query the group to see if anyone had these experiences in common. You don't think those generalizations apply to you. Got it. By piling on, I meant the tendency of groups to promote consensus by attacking out-group members. Stuff like that happens.

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Old 07-25-2011, 12:50 PM   #54
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Ohio,

I came to the forum this morning after 3 days out of town with no connections. And my typical markers to what had not been read were not accurate, so I had to fish back and try to remember what I last read.

And in this thread I started shortly before your post concerning what Lee taught on several verses, mostly in Revelation, on which he was correct. But showing that Lee did teach some correct things does not answer the question as to whether it is reasonable or wise to hold on to Lee's teachings.

So that is what I responded to. In your case, to simply say Lee taught only junk would be ridiculous. That would leave you with no firm foundation.

As for the comments about people throwing out Christ along with Lee, that is a different problem. But even there, you can't just link the two. It must be differentiated.

My decision to intentionally dismiss what I recall as coming from Lee was not to dump truth and have nothing, but to take the position that what I sense being of Lee/LRC origins (and Nee for that matter) would be intentionally open for debate/discussion. Even if I did not know how to go about it, I would start with the idea that if I was not also finding it in front-and-center, mainstream Christian teaching it would be suspect. I would not speak it as if simply true. Instead, I would intentionally read the relevant passages and alternate sources of commentary with an intent to let it speak as if in a vacuum rather than in need of supporting or opposing Lee.

And, of course, a lot of the Lee differentiators were terminology used just to stir things up. I now find that saying "communion," "Sunday," "recite," "tradition," "religion," etc., without immediately being accosted by Lee's narrow or alternate definitions in my mind is very liberating. I can have "true religion" and can practice according to a "tradition" without looking around to see if some LRC acquaintance is in the vicinity. If there is a problem with any of those words, it is in their court, not mine.

I will not speak as if there is some "ground of oneness" that we have to look for. Or flinch at the idea of being a member of an assembly that is part of a denomination. While there may be a general problem with the top leaders of the various denominations not being more open to discuss their positions in that manner, it is nowhere near as bad as with the leadership of the LRC. (And I pick on the leadership because if we think that we are each individually responsible for doctrine, then there will never be any kind of oneness.) With a few exceptions, the leadership of "poor pathetic Christianity" is more inclined toward oneness than the LRC is within its own denomination.

And for most of us, being the building, and the farm, is much easier (and biblical) than all being the workers. We have some basis for stability. Even if we are included at some level in the discussion of doctrine and teaching, the fact that some are commissioned to study and preach the Word for our benefit is a help to us all. The alternate is a mess in which we all think entirely whatever we want and there is strife at more levels than Paul found in Corinth.

In effect, "let's just all be equal brothers/sisters" is not entirely scriptural. There are to be teachers. Jesus sent out the disciples to preach and teach. He didn't just send them because all the others were fallen and reprobate. He did it because those are the ones he trained and commissioned. It does not excuse us from the exercise of our gift. But everyone is not a teacher, or prophet, or evangelist, or even shepherd. Yet we can all shepherd to some extent. And we do speak. But it is not what Paul was talking about. There are workers, but there is a farm. And for most of us, we are the farm. Our primary task is learning and obeying. Not leadership, but God. And yet to some extent we don't know God without leadership. We just become disgruntled if we think it is all about us and there are no leaders. There are some of those around here at times.
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:52 AM   #55
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In effect, "let's just all be equal brothers/sisters" is not entirely scriptural.
Remember Witness Lee taught us that if we were all on the same level we would be like a snake that crawls on its belly. Therefore, equality must be evil.
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:10 AM   #56
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Remember Witness Lee taught us that if we were all on the same level we would be like a snake that crawls on its belly. Therefore, equality must be evil.
Actually, I don't remember that. And coming from Lee, I take it as just a ploy to push a result. It doesn't matter that all being simply equal (in some aspects) is wrong. Lee probably wasn't talking about the legitimate differences. Otherwise he could have come up with a scriptural reason for differentiation. And there are some. It was probably just not relevant to the differentiation he wanted.

And if anyone thinks that I know Lee's motives, I do not. This is clearly an opinion. But if he was the great Bible expositor he wanted everyone to think he was, he wouldn't have needed to create so many extra-biblical examples, pictures, metaphors, etc., in the place of clear scriptural directives or principles to arrive at his conclusions.
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:57 AM   #57
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Actually, I don't remember that. And coming from Lee, I take it as just a ploy to push a result. It doesn't matter that all being simply equal (in some aspects) is wrong. Lee probably wasn't talking about the legitimate differences. Otherwise he could have come up with a scriptural reason for differentiation. And there are some. It was probably just not relevant to the differentiation he wanted.

And if anyone thinks that I know Lee's motives, I do not. This is clearly an opinion. But if he was the great Bible expositor he wanted everyone to think he was, he wouldn't have needed to create so many extra-biblical examples, pictures, metaphors, etc., in the place of clear scriptural directives or principles to arrive at his conclusions.
He said it more than once. I think that he was saying that hierarchy was justifable.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:08 PM   #58
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He said it more than once. I think that he was saying that hierarchy was justifiable.
At some level and in some ways it was/is. But since he had already destroyed the existence of any kind of hierarchy in his previous rhetoric, he needed a different way to arrive at it. So he made up the snake metaphor.

"I put the gold in the fire and out came this calf."
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:16 PM   #59
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At some level and in some ways it was/is.
Yes. Nature teaches us this. As we have already agreed on the doublespeak thread, the problem was that Lee denied that there was a clergy in the churches.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:18 AM   #60
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What we have learned? That followers will cling to even the most extreme and obvious cult leader:

"Followers see him [Warren Jeffs-polygamist/pedophile Mormon cult leader] as a prophet who can speak for God on Earth."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_913008.html
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:21 PM   #61
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Sorry Harold, but I think this is a low blow. I don't see how this situation with this criminal Warren Jeffs relates to the Local Church. As much as I disagree with many of the teachings and practices in the LC, I think your reference to this particular cult group is way out of line and I'm of half a mind to delete it. I'll let it stand for now, but if any of the other regulars out there wants it gone it will disappear without further notice.
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:58 PM   #62
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It relates in so far as Warren Jeffs and Witness Lee are both cult leaders. That does not mean that they are the same in every way. Cult has come to refer to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and that are believed to use dangerous rituals or mind control. Awareness apparently considers WL's cult leader status to be extreme and obvious. I think the LC had become a cult during the years I was in it [73-86]. Compared to the most notorius cult leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh, WL was moderate. The Lord's Recovery is on course to becoming a a pretty typical Christian sect. Personally I don't find the comparison offensive. I think awareness's point is valid.

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Old 07-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #63
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Thanks for the input Zeek.

I guess what I would like to see is people to address what aron wrote in the opening post of the thread. I think it's a good starter for a discussion of what could be gained from our Local Church experience. I am fully aware that there are many out there that think there is nothing to be learned or gained, and maybe this thread is not for them.


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Perhaps there are some things I can learn from my time in the Lord's Recovery Church. First, don't base your fellowship on a ministry which bashes or criticizes others. Yes, it is true that "christianity" is poor, degraded; even in many aspects it is arguably Babylonian. But if we base our ministry on how bad christianity is, and the need for some "restoration" or "recovery" church, then we are like the man praying at the temple, saying, "Thank God I am not like that poor, degenerate slob over there". Because we are all poor, degenerate slobs. See the parable in Luke 18:9-14 We should not trust in ourselves, that we are any better than poor degraded christianity. In fact, we are poor degraded christianity. Don't justify yourself by how bad the other guy is. That is poor logic and it won't work in God's eyes.

Second, if you agree with a ministry's plank that you need to "come out of her" and join one of these "purified remnant" groups, set apart from degraded christianity, then who will safeguard the flock when the leaders err, as all leaders occasionally do? You now have convinced yourself that you are "wrecked evermore" from "fallen christianity", and when the shepherds begin to beat the sheep, where can you go? You have already said that you will "Never go back anymore", and now your elder (or apostle or whatever title they claim) gets caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar (think, "Daystar" or similar situation here), and what do you do?

Anyway, those are some lessons from along the way, I suppose.
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Old 07-29-2011, 02:08 PM   #64
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Thanks for the input Zeek.

I guess what I would like to see is people to address what aron wrote in the opening post of the thread. I think it's a good starter for a discussion of what could be gained from our Local Church experience. I am fully aware that there are many out there that think there is nothing to be learned or gained, and maybe this thread is not for them.
Let's face it UnToHim, many that left or were pushed out of the local church felt that they gave their all to the best Christianity had to offer, and concluded that not only did the recovery let them down, but also Christianity.

My Chinese wife in the LC did this. She let go of all religion. Didn't want any part of any of it. I couldn't blame her. In my confusion back then I was drawing the same conclusion.

It made me question literally everything. And here I am today, still, not trusting in anything those in Christianity have to offer, and the premises and basis for what they believe.

So you are hearing from me. But we will not hear from those that walked away and left it all behind.

Yet, their silence speaks volumes. Where do we go after the LC? Some go completely way.
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Old 07-29-2011, 02:10 PM   #65
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Thanks for the input Zeek.

I guess what I would like to see is people to address what aron wrote in the opening post of the thread. I think it's a good starter for a discussion of what could be gained from our Local Church experience. I am fully aware that there are many out there that think there is nothing to be learned or gained, and maybe this thread is not for them.
Right-- Yes that was a good opening post. I have already cited one teaching, that of "taking Christ as your person" which I find worthwhile. But, I also learned to avoid certain kinds of leaders, groups and group behavior. A few years ago I became interested in Tai Chi and started going to a Tai Chi class. I still think Tai Chi is an excellent form of exercise. The classes were given by the local Tai Chi Society. At every class the teacher gave a pitch for what the society. They were prosletyzing and it had a familar cult-like ring to it. I dropped the course. I think Taoism is great, but I'm not interested in joining a Taoist cult.

It seems like everybody is trying to pitch their thing. I feel that I have already paid my dues in that regard by sitting through too many LC meeting watching WL's talking head on TV. I don't want to follow anybody. I don't think I need to be preached to or at. I don't need to hear another sermon.

I should have known better before I "joined" the local church. I feel like part of me, inside, did know better yet I went though it for 13 years. That was long enough...too long.

By some measures Jesus and his followers were a cult. The pejorative meaning of the term grew to prominance after the Jim Jones tragedy. But in some of the stories Jesus sounds like he was a reluctant savior. That would make him an atypical cult leader. They seem only too happy to be messiahs.

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Old 07-30-2011, 12:58 AM   #66
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So you are hearing from me. But we will not hear from those that walked away and left it all behind.
Well, you're hearing from me, awareness. And you're hearing from 11of101, too.

Oh, wait, we were hearing from 11of101, and then, and then .... and then what? Anyone care to tell us what happened to 11of101?
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:07 AM   #67
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But in some of the stories Jesus sounds like he was a reluctant savior. That would make him an atypical cult leader. They seem only too happy to be messiahs.
Wow, that's really true, zeek.

But, of course, you have Jesus, and you also have Paul. And Paul comes across as one who would not shy away from his "commission", as he saw it. I don't think I'm criticizing Paul here, but where do we get this impression of ... "and Paul withdrew"?

We don't. And of course, Paul is Witness Lee's template.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:33 AM   #68
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Well, you're hearing from me, awareness. And you're hearing from 11of101, too.

Oh, wait, we were hearing from 11of101, and then, and then .... and then what? Anyone care to tell us what happened to 11of101?
11of101 is just such an example. He went beyond the parameters of these forums. Which reveals that if we were to hear from those that walked away from it all, we'd boot them off these forums. We only want to hear from Christians, or those that talk the Christian talk.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:45 AM   #69
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Oh, wait, we were hearing from 11of101, and then, and then .... and then what? Anyone care to tell us what happened to 11of101?
Hey ray,
11of101 was asked to "tone it down" and he refused. He was posting really bizarre and wondering things, and sometimes really vulgar stuff. Just cause he was in the Local Church does not give him the right to post whatever he wants. There are lots of other internet forums where they may give him the freedom to post such things. LC Discussions is the wrong venue for him.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:36 AM   #70
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So localchurchdiscussions.com is not a soapbox in Hyde Park where you can simply say anything about anything or anyone with impunity?

Go figure.

And the sympathies of one or two people do not excuse unacceptable behavior?

Imagine that. There are bounds to this forum.

Thank you for putting bounds on this forum, UH.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:15 AM   #71
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Hey ray,
11of101 was asked to "tone it down" and he refused. He was posting really bizarre and wondering things, and sometimes really vulgar stuff. Just cause he was in the Local Church does not give him the right to post whatever he wants. There are lots of other internet forums where they may give him the freedom to post such things. LC Discussions is the wrong venue for him.
Thank you for setting a standard and keeping it.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:10 AM   #72
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I recognize that we each have different boundaries, opinions and feelings about what is acceptable. Personally I would like to hear from anyone who was involved in the Lord's Recovery so that we would have as many perspectives as possible and serve as many of those who who were hurt by their involvement there. To do that the site would have to welcome all former members with as little restriction as possible within the bounds of civility.

Last edited by zeek; 07-30-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: word choice
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:33 AM   #73
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11of101 is just such an example. He went beyond the parameters of these forums. Which reveals that if we were to hear from those that walked away from it all, we'd boot them off these forums. We only want to hear from Christians, or those that talk the Christian talk.
Now, now Harold, you feisty loveable contrarian - You are living proof that what you have written here is simply not true. Where does it say that we only want to hear from Christians, or those that talk the Christian talk (whatever that is:rollingeyes2 Over the years, on these forums, we have had lots of interactions with atheists and even a Buddhist. I don't know about the BARM, but nobody has ever been banned from this forum because they are not a Christian, much less those who don't talk the Christian talk. You're just trying to stir the pot

So let me make this clear (as if it wasn't already) - LocalChurchDiscussions.Com is "An online community of former and current members of the Local Churches associated with the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee". As I have noted numerous times, it "takes all kinds" to have an interesting and lively community. Yet at the very same time a community has every right to regulate and police (when necessary) to assure that the community is a safe and sane place for all. Every once in a while certain posters have crossed the boundaries.

Furthermore, I have made it no secret that I would like to see this place be a safe and sane place for CURRENT LC members to come to dialog. Also I would like to see more women/sisters posting. With this in view, I put a very short leash on those posters who would be a deterrence to current LC members or women/sisters participating. It's ok, and reasonable, that there would be disagreement and misunderstandings - but blatant disrespect and vulgar language will not be tolerated.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:38 AM   #74
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Hey ray,
11of101 was asked to "tone it down" and he refused. He was posting really bizarre and wondering things, and sometimes really vulgar stuff. Just cause he was in the Local Church does not give him the right to post whatever he wants. There are lots of other internet forums where they may give him the freedom to post such things. LC Discussions is the wrong venue for him.
I wasn't here when 11of101 posted, so I don't how he carried himself out here.

However, I've communicated with him thru email, and he seems okay in our discussions.

So I'm inclined to think we should have considered that 11of101 was going thru some post local church cognitive dissonance and troubles, and maybe we should have been more long suffering toward him.

Cuz I think 11of101 had some important contributions to the forum, if we could have just let vent some of the pressure built up in him.

Talking the talk is good, but sometimes we need to walk the walk with some of our wayward brothers and sisters, and care for them, especially if their troubles were a result of leaving the local church.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:50 AM   #75
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Hey ray,
11of101 was asked to "tone it down" and he refused. He was posting really bizarre and wondering things, and sometimes really vulgar stuff. Just cause he was in the Local Church does not give him the right to post whatever he wants. There are lots of other internet forums where they may give him the freedom to post such things. LC Discussions is the wrong venue for him.
UntoHim,

Your task of achieving some sort of balance here...is certainly not an easy one.

I would point out, though, that by offering people their own "blogs", there may be an invitation to be a little more, shall we say, candid in one's remarks... Obviously the lines are blurry when it comes to what people expect from communications over the wonderful Internet, but isn't it safe to say that having your own personal running thread, as it were, might be understood to give just a wee bit more license than a running conversation between many posters? Know what I mean?

And even if there was an "offensive post" (or two) outside the blog, I'm not sure that that even changes what I'm saying. Wouldn't it have been possible to just say, Hey, no more blog for you...but go ahead and carry on in the conversations here, just keep it PG-rated, OK?

And hey, maybe you did that. I dunno. Just sayin'.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:56 AM   #76
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Now, now Harold, you feisty loveable contrarian - You are living proof that what you have written here is simply not true. Where does it say that we only want to hear from Christians, or those that talk the Christian talk (whatever that is:rollingeyes2 Over the years, on these forums, we have had lots of interactions with atheists and even a Buddhist. I don't know about the BARM, but nobody has ever been banned from this forum because they are not a Christian, much less those who don't talk the Christian talk. You're just trying to stir the pot
P.S. Whatever you may have disagreed with awareness, I would say that if you read his posts related to Christ, and the Body of Christ, he sounds...well...he sounds darn Christian to me.

I agree that it would be beneficial to have "all kinds" participate in these discussions...but wouldn't you agree that, at this point, that's more of a wish than a reality?
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:33 AM   #77
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P.S. Whatever you may have disagreed with awareness, I would say that if you read his posts related to Christ, and the Body of Christ, he sounds...well...he sounds darn Christian to me.

I agree that it would be beneficial to have "all kinds" participate in these discussions...but wouldn't you agree that, at this point, that's more of a wish than a reality?
It's relative. UnToHim obviously hasn't spent time on Meetinghouse Quakers forums. Years ago, I was told because of how I saw things, and the things I wrote, that I was a Quaker and didn't realize it.

Quakers are the most loving Christians I've ever met. Because of being told I was a Quaker, I spent over a year on a Quaker forum. I did my darnest to make them angry. And all they did was love me back.

And they did indeed have Buddhists, atheists, Native American spiritualists, self professed pagans, the whole works, on their forum. And they expressed nothing but love towards all.

It was a shocker to me. I've never met such loving Christians, and wasn't use to it.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:59 AM   #78
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Offering blogs should not be considered as designed to create Hyde Park. It should be an enhancement to participation.

So change the view of the model from the total open freedom of the internet to a specific group joined for a purpose. Those that participate in the purpose are forgiven their idiosyncrasies. Those that merely circle the group throwing irrelevant jabs and annoyance bombs into the group are asked to leave or not provided with the invite to the next gathering.

11of101's participation was virtually void of the purpose of this forum. He annoyed the other participants. And he was refused further access. It wasn't my decision or suggestion. But I understand it. Pointing at the "Wild West" aspects of the internet does not force every town in that Wild West to refuse a sheriff and let the bank robbers run free and terrorize the citizens.

While I am speaking metaphorically, I note that the real Wild West became tame. City by city. Town by town. Region by region. This little corner of the internet is not the Wild West. You my not like the sheriff or his rules, but he keeps the citizens safe and happy. It's still pretty open. But not as open as the internet as a whole.

And I like it that way.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:47 AM   #79
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11of101's participation was virtually void of the purpose of this forum.
I missed 11of101 posts on this forum. So I searched his posts, and read them.

Okay, I couldn't read all of of them. And I should read at least what would be considered offending posts (if anyone knows of one or more, please link me with it) but the posts I did read I found good and of value.

So 11of101 may have been outlandish, I don't know, but he definitely had something of value to add to the forum.

Coming out of the LC isn't easy. It can make you crazy. Believe me, I know, personally ... and know others as well, that are still friends of mine. Face it. The LC makes people crazy ... get use to it.

And we're a forum of local churchers, or has-beens. All crazy LCers are welcomed....
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:19 PM   #80
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Offering blogs should not be considered as designed to create Hyde Park. It should be an enhancement to participation...It's still pretty open. But not as open as the internet as a whole. And I like it that way.
I put up the blog board to give forum members the opportunity to post some "personal" things... maybe just a little window into their world without the constraints of discussing teachings, practices or history. My idea was (and still is) that the a blog could be a "one way" thing if the blogger so desired. Some people don't like interaction with others, and I can fully appreciate that...especially when it comes to dealing with the characters hangin around this place.

At some point there was a poster(s) who were so off-the-wall and contentious I moved all their posts to their own blog, thinking that they could still have an opportunity to participate in the forum, albeit on a restricted basis. This poster(s) then became more off-the-wall and bizarre with their posts so I had to remove them and their posts from the blogosphere area. I received numerous PMs from other members telling me that their stuff just did not belong here. I resisted for as long as I could. This is the same path I took with 11of101. The simple truth is that he needs to find some other place (and their are TONS of them) to air out his laundry....again, I tried to tolerate him as long as I could.

Again, this is a community and a community has a right to remain a safe and sane place for all it's "citizens". Let me repeat what I posted a few days ago:

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Furthermore, I have made it no secret that I would like to see this place be a safe and sane place for CURRENT LC members to come to dialog. Also I would like to see more women/sisters posting. With this in view, I put a very short leash on those posters who would be a deterrence to current LC members or women/sisters participating. It's ok, and reasonable, that there would be disagreement and misunderstandings - but blatant disrespect and vulgar language will not be tolerated.
I think what I have stated above is reasonable. How can we challenge our Local Church brothers and sisters to come and dialogue with us and then let them be exposed to some of the craziness of a few? How can we expect to enjoy the participation of any of the ladies/sisters out there when certain posters put up vulgar language, such as would not be tolerated in a secular work place? To quote a certain President - "Not on my watch".
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:01 PM   #81
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Offering blogs should not be considered as designed to create Hyde Park. It should be an enhancement to participation.

So change the view of the model from the total open freedom of the internet to a specific group joined for a purpose. Those that participate in the purpose are forgiven their idiosyncrasies. Those that merely circle the group throwing irrelevant jabs and annoyance bombs into the group are asked to leave or not provided with the invite to the next gathering.

11of101's participation was virtually void of the purpose of this forum. He annoyed the other participants. And he was refused further access. It wasn't my decision or suggestion. But I understand it. Pointing at the "Wild West" aspects of the internet does not force every town in that Wild West to refuse a sheriff and let the bank robbers run free and terrorize the citizens.

While I am speaking metaphorically, I note that the real Wild West became tame. City by city. Town by town. Region by region. This little corner of the internet is not the Wild West. You my not like the sheriff or his rules, but he keeps the citizens safe and happy. It's still pretty open. But not as open as the internet as a whole.

And I like it that way.
As far as I know, the purpose of this forum is to allow current and former members of "the Recovery" -- really, anyone whose life has been touched by it -- to converse with each other. That doesn't mean it should be "the Wild West". Or that the individual blogs should be little Wild West towns. I think it was clear enough that that wasn't what I was suggesting.

As zeek said, "To do that the site would have to welcome all former members with as little restriction as possible within the bounds of civility."

In case OBW's forgotten, 11of101 came here and shared his testimony of being in, and eventually leaving, the Recovery. The statement that "his participation was virtually void of the purpose of this forum", is that what you might call "HyperboLee"?
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:04 PM   #82
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When we're dropped on our heads, and then dropped on our heads some more...sometimes (just sometimes) we make unpleasant noises.

Best option: Press the mute button.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:10 PM   #83
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As far as I know, the purpose of this forum is to allow current and former members of "the Recovery" -- really, anyone whose life has been touched by it -- to converse with each other. That doesn't mean it should be "the Wild West". Or that the individual blogs should be little Wild West towns. I think it was clear enough that that wasn't what I was suggesting.

As zeek said, "To do that the site would have to welcome all former members with as little restriction as possible within the bounds of civility."

In case OBW's forgotten, 11of101 came here and shared his testimony of being in, and eventually leaving, the Recovery. The statement that "his participation was virtually void of the purpose of this forum", is that what you might call "HyperboLee"?
I didn't say you suggested a return to the Wild West. But it was part of the general suggestion of some when any restriction is mentioned or exercised. Adults should not need the kinds of restrictions that are in place. But every so often someone comes along who demonstrates why there are restrictions.

As to zeek's comment, "as little restriction as possible" is reasonable if the content provided is on the topic of which he is concerned. But as I mentioned before, despite a little relevant content, it was mostly an ongoing dump of irrelevancies. I don't know whether he eventually took it to the blogs, or it was moved for him and his access limited to that. But if that is what happened, I understand it. Once again, something about being adults comes to mind.

My comment about being "virtually void" of relevant content is far from hyperbole. His demeanor is a deterrent to the open flow of discussion. The fact of a post giving his testimony of being in, and then leaving the church does not excuse the rest. It might be that a reinstatement of that post and any other that actually provided something valuable to the forum is worthwhile. I would not disagree. But that does not mean reinstating the rest and reopening privileges to start it up again. His history argues against him.
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:44 PM   #84
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I've never met such loving Christians, and wasn't use to it.
What?! Weren't you in the LRC for years?
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:56 PM   #85
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What?! Weren't you in the LRC for years?
Yes, surprise surprise, and it wasn't as loving as the Quakers...by a long shot ... it turned out to be phony love ... except some friends that left too. The love of exLCers that I know is rock solid. The love of LCers is as solid as sand....
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:37 AM   #86
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I note that the "mute button" has been suggested. Tried that years ago on someone else. Well, the ignore list is more like it. But it is a mixed blessing. You get the silence of the elimination of the noise from the undesired poster. But too many others are busy quoting them and commenting on them, so they never really go away. It just makes dealing with the thread a muddled mess.

But it is sometimes true that if no one responds to them they will get the hint and go away. Worked on someone claiming to have received Lee's mantle. Well, sort of. And sort of worked on someone pushing a new way to "do" the Christian faith — that is until they got frustrated and started little private diatribes in both the open forum and in private messages. Don't know for sure how/why, but they eventually disappeared.

The problem is that leaving garbage unchallenged and without push-back suggests to some, especially those reading without active participation, that what is said is OK. That taints us all. It isn't worth it. This forum (and the other) is primarily for the discussion of the LRC. It does provide some non-LRC fellowship. But I do expect fellowship to be civil.

As was part of another recent discussion, I note that Paul said all things should be done in order. If someone joins your church on a Sunday and stands in the middle to speak as this guy has, what do you think should be done? Especially when his only concern is whether someone stopped him from doing it?

Why do you think this forum should be any more tolerant of such behavior than a church assembly? I've seen what he posted openly as well as some of the nasty private messages he writes. Quit excusing the adult for childish behavior.

Meanwhile, too much resources have gone into defending what should have been praised by all. It is the encouragement of one or two that has kept him trying to get back in one place or the other. Unless his demeanor is suddenly very different, he will fail again and again because he thinks it is just happenstance that he got ejected. But so far he has proved that there is a standard and that he has failed to measure up. And such a low standard it is. Failing to meet it is failure indeed.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:15 AM   #87
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Why do you think this forum should be any more tolerant of such behavior than a church assembly? I've seen what he posted openly as well as some of the nasty private messages he writes. Quit excusing the adult for childish behavior.
Seems to me that life is made up of a series of dealing with crazy people.

God must love crazy people. He makes so many of them.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:54 AM   #88
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Seems to me that life is made up of a series of dealing with crazy people.

God must love crazy people. He makes so many of them.
And by that analysis, we would conclude that not only does God love everyone, but he loves their sinful condition.

And even acknowledging the number of "crazy people" in the world, there is no commandment that requires us to simply let them run roughshod over everyone else.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:15 PM   #89
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Meanwhile, too much resources have gone into defending what should have been praised by all. It is the encouragement of one or two that has kept him trying to get back in one place or the other. Unless his demeanor is suddenly very different, he will fail again and again because he thinks it is just happenstance that he got ejected. But so far he has proved that there is a standard and that he has failed to measure up. And such a low standard it is. Failing to meet it is failure indeed.
Maintaining civility is pragmatic. Talk of measuring up to a standard, "failure indeed", etc., is not pragmatic -- it's religion.

And some of us left religion, and aren't here for it. I wonder if that's acceptable to you...
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:17 PM   #90
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There are a number of posters on this forum whose lives have direction, stability, and purpose. Many of you had an upbringing that was solid and healthy, with or without the Lord's Recovery. This is great, it's wonderful, it's very positive. It really is.

But surely it occurs to you that there are those who could (potentially) derive much more benefit than anything you yourselves need from the forum?

It's a shame that those who need the help the most are the least likely to get along. What can you do?

But at this point I'm mostly reacting to OBW's excesses, and I should probably shut up...
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:43 PM   #91
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A child does not learn to get along in society by being allowed, even encouraged, to not get along in society.

And saying that something is some kind of religion is pointless. Religion is not some bogyman. And saying "religion" doesn't make 11of101 suddenly acceptable.

Excesses? Give me a break!! The only excesses here were expunged some time back. And you would welcome it back. Oh, I guess we should wring our hands in angst over the fact that a grown adult can't abide by common civility. And the stated rules. And warnings from the guy who has every right to simply turn us all off. Spit in the umpire's face and you get ejected and possibly a suspension.

But you are right. This is enough on the subject.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:39 AM   #92
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Maintaining civility is pragmatic. Talk of measuring up to a standard, "failure indeed", etc., is not pragmatic -- it's religion.

And some of us left religion, and aren't here for it. I wonder if that's acceptable to you...
Let them suffer in silence and alone.

Leaving the local church is traumatic. It's a hefty lose similar to the loss of a loved one. Walking away and remaining rational is unlikely. Everyone I know that walked away ended up in heavy turmoil for quite some time. Some worse than others.

It's not like a replacement for the local church could be found. And who in their right mind would want it if available?

I feel for them all. But they have to work thru it on their own. Coming to these forums might help some, but not all, not most. Most just want as far away from the local church as possible.

11of101 is working thru it. Throwing him off this forum can not be as bad as leaving the local church ... it's just more of the same.

I guess it falls into : If you're dumb you'd better be tough. That is, if you are dumb enough to join the local church, you'd better be tough enough to leave it.
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:20 AM   #93
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Let them suffer in silence and alone...
Good assessment.. I'd say.. Sheep pens are a blessing and a curse...
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:46 AM   #94
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I'm glad this forum has decent moderation. If you want a free-for-all, make your own forum. It isn't hard: Get some web space, install vBulletin and coddle every loudmouth who comes along. Just don't complain to me when it turns into a zoo.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #95
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I'm glad this forum has decent moderation. If you want a free-for-all, make your own forum. It isn't hard: Get some web space, install vBulletin and coddle every loudmouth who comes along. Just don't complain to me when it turns into a zoo.
Beside perchance we need to replace Witness Lee as a father figure, and replace it with something .. in this case the moderator parent figure.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:26 PM   #96
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Harold, play nice now or you'll get no cookie after lunch today.

Keep your eye on the ball. What have you learned...besides leaving the local church can be traumatic? You gotta have more then that.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:15 PM   #97
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Beside perchance we need to replace Witness Lee as a father figure, and replace it with something .. in this case the moderator parent figure.
Harold, you're getting boring. Don't you know any other songs?
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:50 PM   #98
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I'm glad this forum has decent moderation. If you want a free-for-all, make your own forum. It isn't hard: Get some web space, install vBulletin and coddle every loudmouth who comes along. Just don't complain to me when it turns into a zoo.
I have followed this discussion with interest, but since i lack any real understanding of what 11of101 said or did I have been fearful to join the fray. It seems you get booted for one of two reasons, either you are completely off topic and your posts are not relevant to a discussion of the Local Churches, or else you are rude and boorish to the point it seems locking you out is the only way to maintain a civilized tone.

I think it is very clear to me, that based on the reaction of Awareness and rayliotta 11of101 was not off topic. Apparently the posts were relevant and added to the threads.

So then it would seem that this person was booted off for being rude. I think this thread would benefit greatly from some quotes that would make it clear to all what kind of discourse is clearly over the line. Apparently some of these rants were PM's, which I feel should be held to a different standard. I don't disagree that a moderator should consider PM's, it just seems a lot easier to deal with a rant in a PM in ways that do not include total expulsion.

Of course I could dig up some quotes but that would be pointless. I didn't complain about 11of101 nor was I offended by any posts. Since the moderator was the one that received complaints, reviewed the posts, and made this decision it seems they must be aware of particular posts that did cross the line.

Anyway, I think the expulsion would be far more profitable to everyone else on the forum if they were given specific quotes and examples of posts that crossed the line.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:43 PM   #99
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I think it is very clear to me, that based on the reaction of Awareness and rayliotta 11of101 was not off topic. Apparently the posts were relevant and added to the threads.
While I cannot say that I read every one of his posts for content, I acknowledge that he did give some kind of testimony of his time in the LRC. I won't bother characterizing the way it was given. It was "on topic."

But after that, he went off into a series of posts that I could not figure out as having anything to do with the LRC except that his fiction occasionally included a name at least somewhat like some LRC people of repute.

But the meat of the content was generally of a nature that was not acceptable. Not just off topic. So I would not say that the "posts" were relevant and added to the "topics." The problem is the plural. There may have been more than one with some relevant content, but it was the minority of his output. And even the ones somewhat on topic contained material worthy of preemptive editing.

So it would seem that even softly and tentatively agreeing with awareness is not based on anything but the fact that he (and one other) thinks it should happen. And awareness is notorious for taking contrarian positions just because he can. Not really much of an endorsement.

Oh well. As I said to Ray. This is way too much attention paid to someone who does not deserve our attention. But I will continue as long as there is a clamor to bring him back without our moderator's endorsement. I don't care what kind of stupid statement can be made like suggesting that the moderator is trying to replace Lee as a father figure (as awareness did).

Every forum has a moderator. And unless they just don't care, they exercise their authority when necessary. And a gang chanting outside the courtroom is not basis for changing their mind. If there is going to be pressure added to allow 11of101 back, then I am going to remind why it should be ignored.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:55 PM   #100
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One way or another, brother 11of101 will work it out. I stand with him. He's really going thru it. Life isn't always fair ... nor easy. Often, hardships shape us deeper than easy going.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:28 PM   #101
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I don't think it's anybody's business why someone got kicked off. UntoHim doesn't owe anybody an explanation other that the perpetrator. It's his board. Does any of you suspect UntoHim of being unfair?

Look guys, how hard can this be? Treat other people like you'd like to be treated, refrain from vulgarity, stay on topic. If you get warned then you will know where the boundaries are.

Has anyone else been warned or kicked off? No? You think there might be a reason? Like this guy that did was clueless? Some people you just can't reach. There's one or two in every crowd.

As Officer Barbrady said, "Move along. There's nothing to see here."
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:19 AM   #102
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Oh well. As I said to Ray. This is way too much attention paid to someone who does not deserve our attention. But I will continue as long as there is a clamor to bring him back without our moderator's endorsement. I don't care what kind of stupid statement can be made like suggesting that the moderator is trying to replace Lee as a father figure (as awareness did).
"Someone who does not deserve our attention"? How can you even say that? That sounds so cold and callous. Are you so unwilling to feel for someone whose background is so different from your own.

I'm tired of all-or-nothing positions. I'm not saying that nothing was of a "censorable" nature. But it's all too clear that there's a serious generational gap at work here, as well as a difference in cultures ("geographical gap"?)...

P.S. Didn't really expect this topic to get resurrected...
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:50 AM   #103
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I don't think it's anybody's business why someone got kicked off. UntoHim doesn't owe anybody an explanation other that the perpetrator. It's his board. Does any of you suspect UntoHim of being unfair?

Look guys, how hard can this be? Treat other people like you'd like to be treated, refrain from vulgarity, stay on topic. If you get warned then you will know where the boundaries are.

Has anyone else been warned or kicked off? No? You think there might be a reason? Like this guy that did was clueless? Some people you just can't reach. There's one or two in every crowd.

As Officer Barbrady said, "Move along. There's nothing to see here."
The Lord's Recovery can be a vulgar place. I think it's vulgar to try to persuade grown men back into your religious organization by "fellowshipping" with their wives. I think it's vulgar to tell parents what you think about their own kids, and kids what you think about their own parents, and pass it all off as something related to the "mingled spirit" (whatever that means).

I think it's vulgar to use sexual confusion and innuendo as if it were some kind of spiritual tool. And though nobody wants to talk about the subject, including probably myself, it is something so common in the Lord's Recovery (and that includes those in leadership with the young people), that it may be a glaring omission for us to avoid it...

So is any of this an excuse for "vulgarity" on the forums? No, OBW, it's not.

But don't be so surprised when some of us emerge from the lab....not quite so *squeaky clean* as you.
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:03 AM   #104
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I don't think it's anybody's business why someone got kicked off. UntoHim doesn't owe anybody an explanation other that the perpetrator. It's his board. Does any of you suspect UntoHim of being unfair?

Look guys, how hard can this be? Treat other people like you'd like to be treated, refrain from vulgarity, stay on topic. If you get warned then you will know where the boundaries are.

Has anyone else been warned or kicked off? No? You think there might be a reason? Like this guy that did was clueless? Some people you just can't reach. There's one or two in every crowd.

As Officer Barbrady said, "Move along. There's nothing to see here."
It depends on what you want for the forum. In our school, an inner city HS we have many cases of kids that do things that we would want to expel them for. What we have learned is that different students respond well to different teachers for who knows what reasons. So if you want to try and keep your students what you do is find who they work with best and get that person to talk some sense into the kid. From this thread I would assume that Awareness might have been the person to talk sense into 11of101. This will not cause a magical transformation, but it may allow many more to stay within the bounds of what is civilized.

One thing I would hope for this forum is that we would make an effort to help those damaged by the LRC. I understand that you did try to help this member, all I am saying is that if those running this forum would like to keep it vibrant with many ex LCers coming and sharing their testimonies and opening up, then an approach to mediate disputes that takes into account that people work better with some than others may help.
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:49 AM   #105
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"Someone who does not deserve our attention"? How can you even say that? That sounds so cold and callous. Are you so unwilling to feel for someone whose background is so different from your own.
Did you pay attention to his rants? Did they offend you? When I said "does not deserve our attention" I meant that what he was spewing did not deserve to be placed in front of us to pay attention to. And there are remedies for people doing such things. He is not a child. He is an adult. He was warned. He ignored every request to tone it down and be pertinent to the forum.
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I'm tired of all-or-nothing positions. I'm not saying that nothing was of a "censorable" nature. But it's all too clear that there's a serious generational gap at work here, as well as a difference in cultures ("geographical gap"?)...
Where is the all-or-nothing position? Someone carries things to extremes and gets the boot. Sort of like getting a few speeding tickets and eventually loosing your license. Willful disregard of the rules has consequences. Since when is that treated as being something extreme on the part of the police and the judge? The "extreme" was on the part of the miscreant who refused to abide by the rules. Just sped away from each traffic stop by going faster.

I'm tired of the excuses for errant behavior. They don't work. They just encourage more of the same.
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:35 AM   #106
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It depends on what you want for the forum. In our school, an inner city HS we have many cases of kids that do things that we would want to expel them for. What we have learned is that different students respond well to different teachers for who knows what reasons. So if you want to try and keep your students what you do is find who they work with best and get that person to talk some sense into the kid. From this thread I would assume that Awareness might have been the person to talk sense into 11of101. This will not cause a magical transformation, but it may allow many more to stay within the bounds of what is civilized.
But how you deal with kids in a high school is a somewhat controlled environment. You have the ability to try various things, then ultimately fall back on the final remedy of expulsion if certain extreme behavior does not cease.


You can say the same about this forum. But it is limited. Unless you can create a space that does not appear on the general feed and is closed to everyone but the persons involved (like private messages) then you force everything going on into the public eye.

What is posted for everyone's consumption has bounds. Go outside those and you get a warning. Do it again and the warning goes up. Be belligerent about it, even making nasty comments about the one responsible for enforcing the rules and you evidence that you do not intend to change. Up the ante every time someone requests to tone it down and you prove your disdain for anyone but yourself.

We are not talking about controlling a student. We are talking about an adult behaving worse than a rebellious child. One who refuses all authority. What do you do with a child in your classroom that constantly disrupts the class with irrelevant, nasty, out-of-bounds speaking? What if there were no way to stop it but to expel that child from the school? This forum can only be likened to a single classroom. You are either in or you are out. You have privileges or you have none. What do you do then? Just let the purpose of the class go down the toilet?

I doubt it.
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One thing I would hope for this forum is that we would make an effort to help those damaged by the LRC. I understand that you did try to help this member, all I am saying is that if those running this forum would like to keep it vibrant with many ex LCers coming and sharing their testimonies and opening up, then an approach to mediate disputes that takes into account that people work better with some than others may help.
This forum has always been ready to help people damaged by the LRC. But you can't force help on those who won't accept it. And you can't allow that help for all the others to be undermined by the disobedience of one.


I realize that this is the age of grace. But even "love your neighbor" is not an unlimited thing. Do you love yourself so much that you think that everyone should simply allow you to spew filth in their presence and just get over it? No, you expect that others have boundaries, and that putting limits on you is a reasonable thing. That is how you love yourself (I hope). To the extent that you recognize that you are not everything and just free to do as you will. So that is how you love others. You don't have to let them treat you how you would not treat them. You just can't treat them in a way that you would not want to be treated by them.

Eventually, there are consequences. Many postmodern Christians are concerned that the God of the OT was too violent. He condoned the wipe-out of the Canaanites. But if you look at it. he gave them generations in which to repent. And they did not.

Our job is not to pass sentence. But removing 11of101 from the forum is not necessarily a permanent sentence. It is merely a consequence of constant and willful misbehavior. It is a necessity to keep the forum able to operate. And he is not refused the ability to reapply. And expunging the offensive posts is to be expected. If they require censure, then why would we leave the garbage lying around to keep offending?

It will not simply be due to time that he his kept out or allowed back in. Unlike the way Phillip Lee was coddled and asked for forgiveness for being excommunicated, it will (and should) be the other way around. It requires that the one excluded evidence a true change of heart. I think awareness knows him well enough to actually contact him outside this forum. If he can be regained to a level of compliance, he can be allowed back in.

If we were simply going to throw every contrarian out, then no one would still be here. Awareness would be long gone for his constantly off-the-wall statements and his propensity to declare the clear reading of scripture as evil, and declare God to be almost evil. (Yes, if you look long enough, you will find statements that imply those. And he got push-back on them. But he was not expelled.)

Last, I wanted to comment on a previous post. You essentially made nonsensical statements when you said "since I lack any real understanding of what 11of101 said or did" and only two sentences later said "I think it is very clear to me," going on to say that 11of 101 should never have been excluded. Can you defend that kind of statement? Is that a reasonable basis for reconsidering his inclusion? The "very clear" assessment of someone who lacks "any real understanding" of what it is all about?

We aren't going to be able to give you the quotes. His existence was removed. His blog eliminated. With no actual record of participation. Asking for what you cannot now have is not going to make your case from a "lack [of] any real understanding" any stronger.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:17 AM   #107
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If we were just starting out on this with no experience I would say give people a lot more leeway. But I've been posting on forums and Usenet for over 15 years. I've seen patterns. I've learned a few things.

The thing is when you have a problem poster you initially don't know what you are dealing with. What I've seen is some of these people just crave attention and can only get it by being irritants. They never change. If you give everyone an extended amount of time to come around then all you are going to be dealing with is them and their behavior. Basically you just end up with a nursery school and a lot of screaming and crying and bellyaching and blaming. I've seen it too many times. It makes it very hard to have a productive experience of discussing things and, importantly, creating a public record of ideas which can be helpful to those seeking truth about the LRC, or whatever subject the forum is devoted to.

If someone cannot summon the civility to behave on a public forum, then they have problems which go way beyond having been in the LRC. I encourage anyone who has the heart to try to help these people one-on-one outside the public arena to do so. But as far as the forum goes, if I were the owner, a lot of these people would have been gone a lot quicker than they were.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:25 AM   #108
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One thing I would hope for this forum is that we would make an effort to help those damaged by the LRC.
This reminds me of the big brothers house we had in the C. in Detroit.

My wife and I and another couple headed it up. We were bringing people in off the street "to the Lord" and to the church.

Trouble was, they were really rough around the edges ... heroin junkies and alcoholics.

We tried and tried to make it work, and went thru hell after hell, and none of them stuck to the lord or the church.

The ideal of the brothers' house was a good one ... the reality of it was ugly ugly ugly, and unlivable.

I think we all want to help those damaged by the local church. But it's a lot of work, a lot of caring, and much love required, like exceptional tolerance and forbearance.

And it probably wouldn't fit on any forum, even a free-for-all.

It really takes personal care. The kind of care that requires a real sacrificial love for the person. And it can take decades ...

Who among us are willing to make such a sacrifice?

Let's take the easy way. Let us be like the Pharisees. Let's argue doctrine ...
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:57 AM   #109
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Let's take the easy way. Let us be like the Pharisees. Let's argue doctrine ...
Yes, because we know if you argue doctrine you therefore must be "like a Pharisee."
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:33 AM   #110
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Yes, because we know if you argue doctrine you therefore must be "like a Pharisee."
I actually didn't mean "like a Pharisee" like the Pharisees depicted in the gospels.

I meant like the Pharisees were back in the first century. They really liked to argue. Not just the two houses, The House of Hillel, and The House of Shammai, argued all the time, but they argued within their own like groups.

The truth is, the arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees was typical Pharisee bantering.

And it's likely that most of the teachings of Jesus came from the house of Hillel, as they were established already by Hillel.

Jesus was, after all, a Jew. And he certainly wasn't a Sadducee. Tho his teaching on divorce was already established by the house of Shammai sect of the Pharisees, who aligned with the Sadducees, the High Priest, and the Romans. Either way, Jesus had to be a Pharisee.

So we're in good company, arguing about doctrine.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:14 PM   #111
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This reminds me of the big brothers house we had in the C. in Detroit.
My wife and I and another couple headed it up. We were bringing people in off the street "to the Lord" and to the church.
Trouble was, they were really rough around the edges ... heroin junkies and alcoholics.
We tried and tried to make it work, and went thru hell after hell, and none of them stuck to the lord or the church.
The ideal of the brothers' house was a good one ... the reality of it was ugly ugly ugly, and unlivable.
I can second that. When my brother and I were still at home, we had some LRC grothers living in our house off an on. One of them turned out to be a heroin addict. While he was not in our house at the time, when virtually everyone vacated the city to go to the training in Anaheim (Winter 1975, I think), he robbed a whole collection of LRC houses, including ours. We got some stuff back from pawn shops, but not all.

And we pressed charges when he was caught.

I sure hope someone doesn't think we should just give him more chances and ask him back into our house.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:17 PM   #112
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And it's likely that most of the teachings of Jesus came from the house of Hillel, as they were established already by Hillel.
I do know that Jesus clearly took sides in these debates, probably tending more to one than the other.

But don't you think that it is more likely that Hillel got his teachings from God, not the other way around. Jesus didn't take sides because he thought one of them was right. He said what was right. If it turned out that one of them was right, that was great. But it wasn't that Jesus got any teaching from Hillel.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:54 PM   #113
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I do know that Jesus clearly took sides in these debates, probably tending more to one than the other.

But don't you think that it is more likely that Hillel got his teachings from God, not the other way around. Jesus didn't take sides because he thought one of them was right. He said what was right. If it turned out that one of them was right, that was great. But it wasn't that Jesus got any teaching from Hillel.
That Jesus was raised as a Jew and didn't receive Jewish teachings sounds ridiculous to me...

Hillel died when Jesus started arguing in the synagogues as a teen. He had to know Hillel, and his teachings, and probably met him.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:03 PM   #114
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That Jesus was raised as a Jew and didn't receive Jewish teachings sounds ridiculous to me...

Hillel died when Jesus started arguing in the synagogues as a teen. He had to know Hillel, and his teachings, and probably met him.
You are missing the point. If Jesus is simply a man, then you are right. If he is God, then the fact that anyone had any position is irrelevant to him. He knows what is right. He may take note of what is being taught that is correct. But that is not the same as learning his teachings from Hillel.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:05 PM   #115
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Harold,

Put a different way, Jesus, as he grew up, may have been taught what some were teaching. But he did not get what is right from that. It was in him. He wasn't taught the right answer by Hillel. Or the other guy. He knew the right answer.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:08 PM   #116
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And after many years in these forums, and 115 posts in this thread, I will repeat the question and the answer.

Q: What have we learned?

A: Evidently not much.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:25 PM   #117
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And after many years in these forums, and 115 posts in this thread, I will repeat the question and the answer.

Q: What have we learned?

A: Evidently not much.
I've learned so much since the local church I couldn't begin to list 'em.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:39 PM   #118
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And after many years in these forums, and 115 posts in this thread, I will repeat the question and the answer.

Q: What have we learned?

A: Evidently not much.
Speak for yourself. What makes you think I haven't learned anything?
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:16 PM   #119
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Speak for yourself. What makes you think I haven't learned anything?
For example, could you teach us what that Chinese character for courage means?
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:52 PM   #120
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For example, could you teach us what that Chinese character for courage means?
I have no idea. I just liked the picture.
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:53 PM   #121
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I have no idea. I just liked the picture.
I have tried to get a picture added to my profile but it isn't working?
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:57 PM   #122
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I have tried to get a picture added to my profile but it isn't working?
You have to add an avatar. For best results, the picture should be square, 100x100 pixels.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:31 PM   #123
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Speak for yourself. What makes you think I haven't learned anything?
You. Probably learned a lot. My comment was not really relevant to the thread. It was a response to seeing the question at the top of every post as these crazy discussions that have gotten into so many strange things, including whether 11of101 should be left out or allowed back in go on with the strange back and forth related to it all demonstrating an almost intent to misread everything by everyone.

In other words, I made a very specific comment in a terse way that was contrarian to the immediate discussion and implied, but not intended, that we haven't learned anything. We are sticking to our guns on readings of scripture. We may have modified them a little since the LRC, but they often are just as strongly held as being "the right reading."

In other words, I stuck something in the conversation that just elicited responses that were not really related to why I put it out there. But it was not obviously so.

BTW. I will defend my readings of scripture in the following way. I mostly provide questions concerning what I cannot see in verses proposed -- by Lee or by others. I do not generally propose anything as the "right answer," but mostly suggest that there may be other ways to read and therefore nothing so certain. That does not mean that the position I hold is definitely right (to me). I am willing to entertain discussion that will change it.

But like this "Jesse taught David" issue, I'm being portrayed as the bad guy for questioning the position, and being lampooned. But I have not seen anything that changes my mind that there is a lack of evidence that it is true to a level that can be taught about. And in response to my request for evidence, one of the brightest guys on the forum pulls a strawman argument to make it go away. And begins to side with the drive-by poster.

So I would agree that you have learned a lot. There are others, many of which are, unfortunately, not participating at the present.

But in a narrow way, I would say that as a collective we haven't learned much. Especially about how to learn much. We tend to retreat to the well-worn paths in our brains of reading whatever we think is right into the scripture rather than letting scripture, with the Holy Spirit, speak out to us. I suspect that once we look beyond the forest into the trees we find those that don't fit the look of the collective. Those that have learned much. You. Ohio. SC. Jane. Terry. PC. I probably shouldn't try to be so specific because I will leave out some that I intend to name if their name would come to me. And in singling anyone out, I really don't mean that anyone has learned nothing. But in the grand scheme of things related to this forum and its topics, it is sometimes hard to see how we've done much more (collectively, again) than quit meeting with the LRC but retain much of the faulty logic even if not all of the faulty teachings.

I believe I am trying. And I'm sure someone can show me where I still fail.

David learned a lot. But he gave credit to God for being able to kill the bear and the lion. Nothing was said about his dad teaching him anything about it. That statement got ZNP's panties in a wad and he unleashed a 1,881 word epistle on the subject. Problem is that there was nothing in it that stated anything of substance about Jesse teaching David anything. Ways to infer if you make certain assumptions. But nothing more. And when I point it out, and say that it is not worthy of making teaching around it, and suggesting that it is even an improper use of scripture to make a self-help book out of it, he pulls the strawman and changes the subject. Maybe if I esteemed him less highly I would not be so irritated.
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:38 PM   #124
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Default Re: What have we learned?

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I do know that Jesus clearly took sides in these debates, probably tending more to one than the other.

But don't you think that it is more likely that Hillel got his teachings from God, not the other way around. Jesus didn't take sides because he thought one of them was right. He said what was right. If it turned out that one of them was right, that was great. But it wasn't that Jesus got any teaching from Hillel.
IMHO,

Jesus is GOD.

He acknowledged the truth because He is The Truth/The Way.

God in The flesh full of all wisdom and is all Wisdom. to those who seek Him.

To those who don't seek Him, They are completely disappointed in their own folly.

Peace to those who hear,
believe and recieve The One Who is above All and In Whosoever.

Don Jr.
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Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:51 PM   #125
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Default Re: What have we learned?

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You. Probably learned a lot. My comment was not really relevant to the thread. It was a response to seeing the question at the top of every post as these crazy discussions that have gotten into so many strange things, including whether 11of101 should be left out or allowed back in go on with the strange back and forth related to it all demonstrating an almost intent to misread everything by everyone.

In other words, I made a very specific comment in a terse way that was contrarian to the immediate discussion and implied, but not intended, that we haven't learned anything.
Is this your way of saying you were being sarcastic? If so, might I suggest using smilies to tip us off.
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:39 PM   #126
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I have also learned that Nee and Lee misrepresented the scripture on many occasions. Some of the more notable ones are:[*]1 Corinthians 14 does not say that all can prophesy. It says that all of the 2 or three that are designated to speak can prophesy.

It is amazing that I've gone my whole life believing "all can prophesy" without ever searching the verses to verify, just because I was given outlines after outlines stating that "fact" with verse references at the end purported to bolster the concept....except those references don't even bolster the concept once you actually look at them! Chapter 14 is clear that yes, prophesying is highly desired, but the reality, which is also clear in 1 Corinthians, is not everyone has the gift to do so.

Also loved reading 1 Cor. 14:15 "...I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind." There is no "get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear" or "don't use your mind". Pray and sing with your spirit and your mind! Woohoo!

Regarding prophesying, I was reading 1 Corinthians 14:22-32 again and have a question.

Verse 22 clearly states that tongues are for a sign to the unbelievers and prophesy is for a sign to the believers. (So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelievers; but prophesy is for a sign not to the unbelievers but to those who believe.)

So:

-tongues for unbelievers
-prophesy for believers

But then verse 23 turns around and says the tongues will make the unbelievers think you are insane (even though it was just stated that tongues are for the unbelievers). And verse 24 turns around and says prophesy convicts the unbeliever (even though it was just stated that prophesy is for the believer).

What am I missing?
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