Can I be candid?

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Hi. I am new on here and joined after a sister I grew up with in the Recovery stumbled upon here. She too no longer meets. I was nervous about posting here because I am atheist and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I am happy as an atheist. I do not know if there are many Black former saints on this forum. The reason I say that is because we are a minority in the church life and I would love to know if others share my experience.

Being a Black woman in the Recovery was very, very hard for me. Even though I stuck out I felt very ignored and invisible. I felt as though to be appropriate in the church life ( If I can be very candid) you had to be "whitewashed". There is a stepford wife cookie cutter image that I feel the saints have to adhere to, male and female and regardless of ethnicity. If you dress, talk, or act a certain way it is frowned upon and I have overheard certain saints say, " Oh give them some time or let so and so fellowship with them and that will change!". I have had many saints come up to me and ask why Black people "in the world" behave a certain way, why don't I straighten my hair, they have rolled their necks and called me Girlfriend (stereotype), and I have had several saints look at me in disgust. What did I do?

I was born into the church life. The second of four to Caribbean parents. My parents are still in even though my dad rarely meets ( none of the brothers care about his attendance, they don't check on him to see why he doesn't meet although my parents have given a LOT of money, maybe over a million to the church life and have taken care of so many saints) my siblings meet here and there but they are not watered and I am reasoning with them to leave. Especially my sister who went to FTTA ( I did too....a complete waste of two years) and came back with that ridiculous Southern California accent with the weird intonations that everybody gets in the training(ie the Kardashians).

I can't begin to tell the mountain of offenses I have turned my cheeks to. Including saints inboxing me on Facebook and begging me to vote Republican, brothers talking loudly while I'm giving my testimony, or me taking care of so many saints that don't reciprocate. The brothers in the church life are grandiose and ambitious believing they are owed a super model wife even though they are overweight and the sisters are miserable gossips stuck in "just turn to your spirit and enjoy the Lord" marriages. I don't mean all because that would not be fair.

There is a lot of elitism and I can't even begin to tell you the amount of promiscuity there is among the elders and leading ones children. One training an elder's son had to be kicked out of Grace Gardens because he brought Playboy magazines and was masterbating on his bed. The saints became to me robots who regurgitate what was shared in the meeting who say "Wow" and "hallelujah" to things that are so nonsensical. I can agree my heart is hurt and I am jaded but I can't believe in a "God" who continues to bless these people's behavior. Oh, the leading brothers act so humble but they definitely fly first class and vacation on saints money. Also, when we lived in Virginia a leading brother admitted to molesting his granddaughter and they told him to repent for 6 months and when he did not return they begged him to come back. I know this to be true . Nothing is private and sacred. The elders tell their wives everything and they tell the sisters and everybody knows. If you are a Black sister please date outside the Church life because you are last on the totem pole or not even considered. The men in the world treat you much better. Even after looking at the marriages men in the world are much better.

So this comes off as a rant even though I did not mean for it to be. I hope other former Black saints will share their experiences on this forum!

[zeek]

Hi KindnessNotBlindness. Welcome to LCD! Please tell me about your transition to atheism. What changed your thinking? Was it a difficult change to make?

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". /. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ....

Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon.

It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Hi again..
I replied to your first post before reading this post. I just want to say, I too was sexually abused and felt alone. I have been hurt, betrayed, controlled, manipulated, lied to by Christians and non Christians alike. When I got violently ill with RA, I only had friends who were atheists. They were my best friends until I got sick. They quickly abandoned me. I understand now why I was abandoned by just about everyone. I even felt God had abandoned me!

NO ONE came to my aid. But honestly, skipping the details, JESUS did heal my soul. I still suffer from RA but I am in a good place spiritually and emotionally. 17 yrs I have been in physical pain 24/7. Many months it has been excruciating. I am single and don't have family. One brother in a different state. I do have friends and have great neighbors who are there for me. But it was not always like that.

I know it's hard for you to understand God is real and that God is Love because of your own experience and what you see in the patients. You have been gifted to help these people however way you do. Thank you for helping people who many people have abandoned because they don't know how to help them.

That is so wonderful!! You surely will be rewarded.

[Guest M]

Hurting for you Countmeworthy and your experiences here. Living with chronic pain...I can't even begin to imagine. for 17 years!!!! I am glad you find comfort in your relationship with God.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Hurting for you Countmeworthy and your experiences here. Living with chronic pain...I can't even begin to imagine. for 17 years!!!! I am glad you find comfort in your relationship with God.

Thank you for your kind thoughts toward me! Yes.. this pain is a real pain in the but and everywhere else too!! But I am a very optimistic and positive person as a whole.

I should mention as a btw, I have screamed at God on more than one occassion. I have told Jesus: You came that we/I would have life and have it more abundantly ! REALLY?? REALLY?? WHAT KIND OF LIFE IS THIS!!??

He has not given me an exact answer but He has drawn me closer to Him and blessed me in other ways. You know a few months back, early in the summer, I began experiencing deep depression. Now I know we all have our ups and downs and then there are those who suffer depression from a clinical chemical imbalance.

Me, I was just super down in the dumps for quite a few months. One night I went to bed and told the Lord "Holy Spirit, I am sooo tired of being in so much pain and being depressed." That night I had a dream. In the dream I was laughing and having a grand ole time playing hide and seek with people who could not find me. As they kept getting close to me, I ran fast and hid again. I was laughing and laughing in the dream and when I woke up, the depression was gone. The physical pain was still there. But my mood was back to normal.. like it is now. I am on good medication btw that is helping me and eat healthy by staying away from bad carbs. I still have a sweet tooth but it is under control and thus I continue to look for ways to keep getting healthy even if the reports say 'there is not cure'. Bah-hum-bug! I know there is...

Please know I am not trying whatsoever to persuade you to 'turn to God'. I am simply sharing an experience I had and again am very grateful for your kind thoughts and compassion.

We need more kindness, compassion and Love in this world!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Welcome KindnessNotBlindness. It's been a long time since I've been in the church life, but I'm not surprised at anything you've shared. To be honest, oddly, I find your sharing refreshing, en-light-ning, and reassuring concerning my views of the LC from long ago.

How you lasted so long in the church life I don't know. You must be a saint (can an atheist be a saint? I think so). We've discussed somewhat why there are no female leadership in the local church. I don't remember, or think, there's also no black leadership, at the top, at headquarters (Drake or Evangelical please correct me if I'm wrong). My point being, sister, if I may call you that, you had two local church forces against you, if not, three, if counting the local church God force (it's a thing - "God made man in His image, and man returned the favor." someone smart said. (I can't remember who right now, and too lazy to look it up - google it).

And sister, again if I may, now you have another force against you : this particular forum. Don't get me wrong, it's not that you are a woman, not that you are black, but that you are atheist. This forum, bless its pea-oickin' heart, is waaaaay tooooo religious to be down with dat, if'n ya know what I mean.

But that doesn't mean your sharing can't be instructive, helpful, and maybe even en-light-ening. I, for one, would just love to hear more about your path from the LC to atheism. That, to me, would be of great interest. Please, if you could, share that with us. Please, pretty please ... with a cherry on top.

Also, may I invite you to the section -- the dungeon maybe, so thought of, -- called "Alternative Views." This main forum, LCD, don't care about your color or gender, but most would prefer you to be a believer. (It might be fun tho, and I admit I'd get a real kick out of it, to watch them, try to make you one. (Sorry guys and gals, brothers and sisters, or in between (very unlikely, so far, I think we need a gay section, as I know of gays in the LC, in the past, and even currently) but I had to say it ; not the gay thing, but the atheist thang. Atheists have social forces coming against them from most everywhere. Polls show, for example, that voters would rather have a gay president than an atheist one. Christians today complain that they are being persecuted -- yeah right -- but it's the atheists that are the ones being persecuted, big time, by the Christians, and all monotheist religions ; polytheists not so much -- maybe it's the "altar with this inscription: to an unknown god" factor that makes them more accepting.

Anyway sister, I'm glad you joined us, and hope to hear more from you. Share here, but get down to the nitty-gritty on Alternative Views, if that's your cup of tea.

Welcome again. Any exLCer is a friend of mine, regardless of where they've ended up, or haven't ended up (no one stays the same. We all change. Even the religious, tho less likely ... as those that think they have The Truth are a most stubborn bunch ... haha ... and change is evil to them, perchance. But that's a conversation made for Alternative views.

Blessings ....

[aron]

KNB, the LSM/lc is steeped in the Asian culture, values, & thinking of its progenitors Nee & Lee. Individuals must subsume to the collective. And some individuals, like blacks & women, even moreso. Anyone with talent or distinction must hide in order not to challenge leadership. Don't want to draw attention.

Of course, there's plenty of room for ambition. Just be a Maximum Cheerleader for the Maximum Brother. How do you think EM, BP, RK, MC, RG et al got where they are? Duh.

I left the LSM/lc & went into a group that made the LSM/lc look pale. Women couldn't speak in church - Paul said so. No instruments - not any in the NT. Etc. Eventually I left that & gave up on religion, and God.

God wasn't paying attention to me; why should I pay attention to God? I got tired of trying to talk to a silent God.

Eventually, I began to re-engage with the notion, simply because a universe with no conceptual center wasn't very appealing to me. I really wanted some place to hang my proverbial hat. But it was my journey. I took ownership ( or at least began to try). And that made all the difference. It's my journey.

Thanks for writing, here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman.

I'm a man, with male perspective. I just can't help it. But I do notice how Jesus treated ALL people, including women, sinners, children, poor, crippled, 'drunkards', tax collectors. If you can't handle the word 'love', I think respect is a pretty good stand-in. So I do respect your views, and Jane's and everyone else's.

My own "root cause analysis" is that the Exclusive Brethrenism withered on it's native soil, but it struck a chord with the Chinese. Thrice it flourished. First in the Little Flock, pre-WWII, then in the House Church Movement under Mao, then in 1979 LSM operatives returned and in 1995 WL told us of "15 or 20 million shouters", if I remember right.

How did it resonate? The subsuming of self to the Hive Mind is conditioned by 5k years of human culture. Give yourself to the Church, the Body, curated by the Wise Master Builder, the Humble Bondslave of Christ. That is the root message, all the Protestant window-dressings aside. Not a co-incidence that the demographic 'face' of the LSM/lc has changed in the USA drastically from 35 years ago.

Originally Posted by Nell

SoI don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I am a know-it-all man, but I laugh at myself. I'm just another dummy on the journey.

I just like knowing everything. I can't help it.

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Nell, thanks so much for your response. Nothing wrong with being lilly white. Ha! There was certainly something wrong with being Black in the church life. Specifically a Black sister but I know a lot of Black brothers who are unhappy and fight against the saints worldly stereotypes that they have deemed to be true. Also to clarify not only am I atheist but I don't align with a political group and never vote. I have friends from all racial backgrounds. I reiterate that I do not want to be persuaded back to Christianity as I have my own issues with Christians and their hypocritical, elitist behavior. I really think without religion and spirituality this world would be a much better, a much healthier and happier place to live. I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Nell, thanks so much for your response. Nothing wrong with being lilly white. Ha! There was certainly something wrong with being Black in the church life. Specifically a Black sister but I know a lot of Black brothers who are unhappy and fight against the saints worldly stereotypes that they have deemed to be true. Also to clarify not only am I atheist but I don't align with a political group and never vote. I have friends from all racial backgrounds. I reiterate that I do not want to be persuaded back to Christianity as I have my own issues with Christians and their hypocritical, elitist behavior. I really think without religion and spirituality this world would be a much better, a much healthier and happier place to live. I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!

Thanks KNB,

What do you think about my root cause?

Nell

[Guest M]

This is not a bad take, and certainly one I've not heard before. Thanks for sharing.

While I won't get too much into it, there's another perspective I'd add.

First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith. Lilith is discarded because she refused to lie under Adam when he insisted (apparently it was an argument over sexual position, to be clear, and what that symbolized). She departs from Eden, and then Adam is given a more subservient wife, while she wanders, tormented and enraged by the attempted domination, rejection of her equal status and partnership, and then replacement.

How I read this? Personally, me being who I am and having experienced what I have, I read this story as acknowledging rape to be THE original sin. Mankind is guilty, and has been since the beginning, of treating other human beings (and other forms of life, too) as things to be used; guilty of subjugating others by virtue of overpowering, instead twisting the intended harmony of life. Humans of all genders have been suffering from this deep spiritual wound and sin ever since. Lilith is mentioned in the Christian Bible, but only as a passing reference. That's who she actually is, and there's a whole body of lore around her.

She eventually was made into a demon who forever after punished men basically with the power of sexual shame, and ate children. I read this as the subconscious acknowledgement that man knows it is guilty of this original sin, and dreams fearfully that there will be a day it will have to face revenge. However, he misses the hurt and desire for reconciliation that is so obvious.) The origins of Lilith, however, also place her as a goddess in Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, and of course in recent times she was reclaimed by feminists, especially in Dianic (goddess-centered) neo-paganism. (

In case you were wondering, that's not my brand of neo-paganism. it's just that paganism is one of the few modern religions that actually pays any attention at all to women's mysteries and the feminine divine, which has been written out of most of the other major world religions.)

Her story is very interesting, but what I find most interesting are the implications to me of the way that tree and serpent story came about. Likewise, other stories around the world, around the same time, generate explanations as to why the subjugation of women is justified. They are very revealing. I could not help seeing that even when I first heard these stories as a little Christian.

Secondly, the "serpent" has had an interesting journey, too. The serpent is and has been a power symbol and power animal in many ancient cultures, symbolizing the circle of life, or the eternity of time. This is because it sheds its skin and makes itself anew. Images of goddesses and powerful women in early cultures can be found with serpents, symbolizing her power of life. The presence of the serpent can be intended to say something about the figure it appears with. How it became a character on its own, must have been an interesting cultural evolution.

This, like the first wife of Adam, I find intriguing because you can learn something by the way stories change over time, reinterpreting symbols from positive to negative, or negative to positive, depending on the social changes and needs of the time. Some of these folkloric symbols have had an associated meaning for so long, that they have become assumed to have always had that meaning. I ask, what does that story mean, if it were to be read this way?

I do not present with this bit of nerd knowledge a particular different reading of that story, as I don't totally have one yet; I just find it interesting to know. and personally, one thing I learned a lot from, since folklore is kind of my thing, is understanding stories, their histories, how they change and what they reveal, most importantly, about the people who tell them.

No offense meant to those who take these stories literally; for myself, I read them for the wisdom lying in the symbolism, and what they say about the cultural context they came from. It makes sense to me. And I enjoy that exploration; it is in those gaps of questions that I find the poignancy of spiritual growth and search. Incidentally, if I took ANY early myths (meaning stories, not "lies") literally, I would not be able to be a pagan, since despicable actions by deities are rampant in pretty much all cultures!

I have often wondered why the early Israelites eventually became monotheistic. I haven't ever understood that, except it appears that it was a situation of identifying with a tribal deity. But they were originally polytheistic, which is why they discouraged worshiping other gods, instead of claiming there WERE no other gods.

/Pagan nerd moment

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

T
First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith.

I have read about Lilith btw.. I have not done an indepth study to formulate my thoughts but just wanted to let you know I know all about Lilith.. or used to! It's been a while I have read that account.

I am currently doing a study on 'the seed of the serpent' though and the 'synagogue of Satan'.

Mysteria wrote:

I have often wondered why the early Israelites eventually became monotheistic. I haven't ever understood that, except it appears that it was a situation of identifying with a tribal deity. But they were originally polytheistic, which is why they discouraged worshiping other gods, instead of claiming there WERE no other gods.

/Pagan nerd moment

Good question!
I am reading through the OT with some friends. I have an understanding what took place. I am learning a lot and seeing things I never saw before. An answer to your question would be long winded from me and I don't want to be long winded.

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell

In response to your root cause analysis I can only repeat my beliefs. I am atheist and I do not believe in God or Satan. I believe things happen because they happen. The Bible is fantasy to me and I reiterate that if it was not written I could have a psych patient write down their hallucinations and it would be similar to what was written. Christianity, religion, and spirituality are all phenomenons to me. I stay far away from that realm. I do think some people are inherently evil to the point that they cannot control their own depravity. Why? I don't know. Why did God stand up when Peter was being stoned instead of saving him from that fate? I don't know. A Black man gets shot in the back eight times. Oh, no! Let's pray to God. Why? He saw him get stoned, get shot, watches children die of cancer, watches the mentally ill die prematurely because they are too ill to properly take care of themselves. Satan gets blamed for all the bad God allows to happen. He cannot be real. Cannot be. Satan is an excuse for bad behavior and treating others unkind. God is an excuse for controlling people and draining them of their finances. I love people and try to be kind. I want people to feel cherished when they are around me. Sometimes I'm not nice but I'm the one to blame. I don't worship myself. I don't worship anything. Peace to you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me.

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Why did God stand up when Peter [Stephen] was being stoned instead of saving him from that fate? I don't know. A Black man gets shot in the back eight times. Oh, no! Let's pray to God. Why? He saw him get stoned, get shot, watches children die of cancer, watches the mentally ill die prematurely because they are too ill to properly take care of themselves. Satan gets blamed for all the bad God allows to happen. He cannot be real. Cannot be.

KnB, these are very difficult questions to answer, and a very difficult subject for many people.

On the thread "The Problem of Evil" in the Alternative Views Sub-Forum we explored this topic for some time with many diverse viewpoints, in case you are interested.

[Guest M]

Being a racial or ethnic minority has a way of making it even harder to be individuals with unique, diverse interests. Marginalized communities appear to me to "double down" on the subtle stereotypical mainstream expectations so that they are almost caricatures. Men aren't just a little jockish...they're "macho" to the point of looking ridiculous. I feel so much sympathy for many other black people I have met who never felt like they belonged in the black communities or weren't "black enough." I've met so many of them now it has convinced me that we're all actually internalizing the same message, but it's not reflective of the truth at all. For some reason, we keep reinforcing the cages we're held in by allowing ourselves to be isolated in our unique interests, and believing that's what's expected of us. it takes a lot of strength to forge our own way. It kind of grates on me that Christianity is the supposed expectation for black people, and that they perpetuate the same superstitions and anti-black prejudice toward religions that their own ancestors practiced. Talk about internalized hatred! I do hope much of that and so many other things are changing with the rise of the Information Age, where we can connect with others not bound by time and location.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Hi. I am new on here and joined after a sister I grew up with in the Recovery stumbled upon here. She too no longer meets. I was nervous about posting here because I am atheist and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I am happy as an atheist. I do not know if there are many Black former saints on this forum. The reason I say that is because we are a minority in the church life and I would love to know if others share my experience.

Hi Kindness,
I am a woman. My heritage is Mexican. I speak both languages. I was in the LR from 1975-1978/79.

In the U.S., the majority in the LC back in the day were white people. And very MALE dominated. It still is, including this forum. (male dominated).

I don't know what it is about this forum. Women sign up and then they 'poof'. Sorry for the rabbit trail. My observation is that more and more it is Asian/Chinese people who are 'taking over' the LR.

Since the LR is global, I'm sure there are lots of Black people in other parts of the world. But honestly I don't know or have any proof.

I am happy you are happy.

Briefly.. my experience is that GOD is our friend.. our only real Friend, at least He is my Friend. I totally trust Him. I tell Him all my problems. But we share a lot of good laughs. He can be very funny! I am getting to really know Him intimately, especially lately. In fact, I experienced a paradigm shift last week and it is still on going. He is taking me to a new place spiritually speaking.

The body of Christ as a whole is really a messed up bunch!! Love them all but boy oh boy, I am careful what I say and share! Some are dogmatic: "you need to be in a church! You need to be 'tithing'. I've seen it all.. or most of it.. Pentecostals, Charismatics, Messianic (Jewish/Christian) etc. oh.. and I was raised Catholic. Too many religious spirits out there! God is not a religious Spirit at all!

I don't blame God whatsoever that the 'church' as a whole is messed up.
I blame religion and the religious spirits that have perverted, twisted and turned God's Word into a business and that includes the LC/LR.

For me, I am so thankful He is not going to forsake me, betray me or reject me and so THANKFUL He took me out of 'church' even though I have Christian friends I 'hang out' with.

Many people here go to church and if they are led to go so be it. I attended a charismatic church from 2005 - 2010/11. From 1979 - 2005, I rarely went to 'church'. From 1994 - 1996 I attended a Jewish/Messianic church. I really did my best to delve into it trying to prove the LC was wrong in its assessment that 'there is nothing in poor, poor Christianity'. Well.. they are right in a way...again my experience. But in each denomination I attended, I did learn something and grew closer to God.

The LC / LR is just another denomination. Maybe it did not start out that way. It is now though.

Revelation 18:4 says 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!' So I did. Took me a long time but so happy I am out! We live in a matrix world and religion is part of the matrix. The LC/LR is also in the matrix. No one here has ever mentioned this and I will probably be thought of as 'brainwashed' or 'weird' or something. I don't care what anyone here thinks!

Sorry I'm not Black. I thought I would respond because you are not going to get many responses since there are hardly any women on this forum and I don't think anyone here is Black.

Still. Remember: God is Spirit and He has no color on His Skin! Our mortal bodies are mere shells. Sin and religion have messed up the human race. I hope one day the Love of Jesus will envelop you as He did me. He will never leave you or forsake you. I know you don't believe in God and are happy as an atheist. I'm happy you are happy and not all screwed up as so many people are who have left the LR or are still in that religious prison.

[KindnessNotBlindness]

Countmeworthy....I count you worthy! Thanks for your response! I do understand that this forum is male dominated and of course there would not be a lot of Black people but I wanted to hear their voice if they were on here. I just realized last night that my crusade to save my fellow Black sisters and others as well from the church life into atheism was a bit too strong. We all need to take our own paths. When I was in the LC I can say that I found the mix of different races refreshing as growing up my friends went to all white, all Black, all Asain etc. places of worship and this confused me. I wonder, also, if there are a lot of brothers on here who wanted to be leaders but never could for some reason and it would be interesting to know the reason.
I do appreciate Jesus being your friend and that you have a relationship with him. He is just not someone I believe in. Peace to you!