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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

Personality is also evident at or immediately after birth. Any parent can testify that "he/she came out [insert personality trait here]." After all, we're talking about a human being here.

A human being dependent upon another human being (i.e. baby siphoning off nutrients) doesn't mean in any way that it's not a separate human being. Just because there is a dependency or connection doesn't mean it's not a person with its own life. You know that.

The rape scenario is a specific percentage of the preceding events to abortion. It doesn't deal with many other scenarios. And while I don't think anyone here discounts the horror, pain, suffering, and trauma that comes from something as evil as rape, the logic being thrown around here is "I was raped, therefore I get to murder someone".

Doesn't work.

We should be looking at providing the support, care, counseling, belonging, and safety that a rape victim needs, rather than adding to the evil by capping the rape off with a murder.

If we say "Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her" then we are deluding even ourselves. ALL laws determine what we can do with our body. The speed limit laws control how far I can press my foot down on an accelerator. The crosswalk lights determine if I walk or wait. The laws against murder determine whether or not I can pull the trigger of a weapon pointed at a person. We are not free to do whatever we want with our bodies no matter what. There are always boundaries.

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

This has to be taken like euthanization. If someone was suffering from cancer, wouldnt it be moral for that person to have the choice for legalized euthanization? The difference between Hitler’s murders and abortion is that Hitler caused widespread suffering. Abortion oftentimes mitigates suffering. We make the moral choice for the unborn child or innocent when we look at life’s circumstances and see if there are more pros and cons for the kid. (I’m up for adoption but the fact is most kids put up for adoption end up in foster care and group homes which are not the best, because I’ve worked in several. Unless the country has fixed its adoption and foster care system, I dont see why abortion cant be a secondary choice.)
Therefore the slippery slope in which abortion will lead to a houlocaust is not a neat point A to point B. Just like how legalizing same sex marriage does not lead to justification for pedophilia and other sexual immoralities that do not involve consent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Personality is also evident at or immediately after birth. Any parent can testify that "he/she came out [insert personality trait here]." After all, we're talking about a human being here.

A human being dependent upon another human being (i.e. baby siphoning off nutrients) doesn't mean in any way that it's not a separate human being. Just because there is a dependency or connection doesn't mean it's not a person with its own life. You know that.

The rape scenario is a specific percentage of the preceding events to abortion. It doesn't deal with many other scenarios. And while I don't think anyone here discounts the horror, pain, suffering, and trauma that comes from something as evil as rape, the logic being thrown around here is "I was raped, therefore I get to murder someone".

Doesn't work.

We should be looking at providing the support, care, counseling, belonging, and safety that a rape victim needs, rather than adding to the evil by capping the rape off with a murder.

If we say "Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her" then we are deluding even ourselves. ALL laws determine what we can do with our body. The speed limit laws control how far I can press my foot down on an accelerator. The crosswalk lights determine if I walk or wait. The laws against murder determine whether or not I can pull the trigger of a weapon pointed at a person. We are not free to do whatever we want with our bodies no matter what. There are always boundaries.

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

After reading this post it makes me wonder if you've ever had kids. Also, I don't think you've ever had to deal with women who wanted to have an abortion. Not to mention that some of what you say is nonsense.

I've had 3 kids, and had to bear much pressure on 2 of the mothers that wanted to abort. I can tell you without reservation that a woman can be very stubborn if they put their mind to it.

And y'all all can keep harping on it, and bring women's reproductive rights under government control, throwing women behind bars, but with abortion pills now available, and how to make them for underground use, the cat is already and clearly way out of the bag. Good luck with that. Plus, the court has made abortion legal.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

After reading this post it makes me wonder if you've ever had kids. Also, I don't think you've ever had to deal with women who wanted to have an abortion. Not to mention that some of what you say is nonsense.

I've had 3 kids, and had to bear much pressure on 2 of the mothers that wanted to abort. I can tell you without reservation that a woman can be very stubborn if they put their mind to it.

And y'all all can keep harping on it, and bring women's reproductive rights under government control, throwing women behind bars, but with abortion pills now available, and how to make them for underground use, the cat is already and clearly way out of the bag. Good luck with that. Plus, the court has made abortion legal.

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was?

Your reasoning seems to be "my wife was stubborn, therefore all women should be able to kill babies". As usual, I'm writing for the readers to see the rationale behind both sides.

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin. Doesn't mean we can't still talk about it here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was? As usual, I'm writing for the readers to see the rational behind both sides.

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin.

This hits at the core of the matter of abortion. As long as we can get it legalized, whether thru legislation or judicial activism, then it is all OK. But it's not.

Unfortunately, the healthy conscience of man/woman is connected to the law of God. He put "eternity in our heart," which aligns our moral compass with the nature of God. That's why so many girls suffer long term guilt after an abortion, but have you noticed that is a subject none are willing to respond to? It is only an orchestrated collection of calloused hearts, fueled by atheism, self-love, and drugs, that can reduce the murder of an unborn infant in the womb to an "inconvenience."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was?

I really didn't want to get into it all.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Your reasoning seems to be "my wife was stubborn, therefore all women should be able to kill babies".

A baby is a baby because it's born. That's when it has rights equal to its mom, and all the rest of us. Before that, it's the mom to be that has rights.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin.

Maybe you didn't catch it, and maybe I've failed to point out that I'm against abortion. I just think that the decision is up to the adult involved, who clearly, legally, has rights, that shouldn't be infringed. If it's sin, then that's between God and the one that aborts. Like you've pointed out, it's God's life. And He may not care as much as you. Have you ever considered that you might be jumping the gun on God?

And sorry for not elaborating on my nonsense statement. Maybe it will come up again.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

A baby is a baby because it's born. That's when it has rights equal to its mom, and all the rest of us. Before that, it's the mom to be that has rights.

Since when does the rights of one deny the rights of another?

But you guys can't even get your own story straight. Before it was posted that as long as the unborn child is a "parasite" off the mother, drawing all subsistence from the mom, then it has no "rights." So the child can be killed up until it is weaned? Sounds a lot like VA Gov "Black Face" Northam.

What if we can get the unborn child on life support within the womb, then can the child have "rights?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

It is the height of arrogance to tell someone that they have no right to protect innocents just because they are men. If you won't listen to men about abortion, then you definitely don't listen to women either about abortion.

Do you have any idea what women go thru who have had an abortion? The lifelong guilt, remorse, and psychological trauma of killing that which was once life. Within them. All because they were told it was "inconvenient." Post-partum depression is nothing compared to the guilt some endure.

One of the kindest, most loving Moms I know was the result of a rape. Her rapist father was a black man. Her single mother then made an heroic choice for life. Today she is a doting grandmother who never once regretted her decision. This is what a loving God and Father can do!

Once a society decides to terminate "undesirable" life, that society declines. The decision to terminate other undesirables becomes that much easier. I should think that you would understand this, and change your perspective. Many countries view LGBT as "undesirable."

I don't think you understand what a "patriarchical machochistic society" looks like. Perhaps you should visit some Muslam country. Most have zero tolerance for gays. The same goes with socialist and communist countries. Go live in China and find out what the gay "social scorecard" is. Gays sometimes are murdered as a public example, and sometimes they just disappear. For you to consider the USA to be a "patriarchical machochistic society," is frankly just to believe pure propaganda, far far worse than any LC "Kool-Aid."

[Sons to Glory!]

Thank you Ohio & Trapped - you are very good (gifted) at these kinds of exchanges regarding abortion fallacies! (much better than I am)

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once a society decides to terminate "undesirable" life, that society declines. The decision to terminate other undesirables becomes that much easier. I should think that you would understand this, and change your perspective. Many countries view LGBT as "undesirable."

I don't think you understand what a "patriarchical machochistic society" looks like. Perhaps you should visit some Muslam country. Most have zero tolerance for gays. The same goes with socialist and communist countries. Go live in China and find out what the gay "social scorecard" is. Gays sometimes are murdered as a public example, and sometimes they just disappear. For you to consider the USA to be a "patriarchical machochistic society," is frankly just to believe pure propaganda, far far worse than any LC "Kool-Aid."

Look, I’m not advocating entirely for abortion. This needs to be looked on case by case. The moral thing is to minimize suffering for all parties, the kid, and the mother, and the family’s economical resources. Rape/incest also has an everlasting effect on a woman’s entire life. The kid grows up being ostracized, treated differently by the mother and her family. The baby daddy gets to run away from all the responsibility and leave the woman with the moral responsibility of raising the kid. Every time, the mother looks at the kid, she gets retraumatized by the event.

You automatically love to change the topic of discussion to LGBTQ whenever I’m around huh? Last time we were talking about crimes against transgendered people, you were like “all lives matter”, now you are pro-LGBTQ. I love how you’re maturing. I’ve lived in China btw. So lucky I was not killed or I wouldnt be having this discussion with you

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Look, I’m not advocating entirely for abortion. This needs to be looked on case by case. The moral thing is to minimize suffering for all parties, the kid, and the mother, and the family’s economical resources. Rape/incest also has an everlasting effect on a woman’s entire life. The kid grows up being ostracized, treated differently by the mother and her family. The baby daddy gets to run away from all the responsibility and leave the woman with the moral responsibility of raising the kid. Every time, the mother looks at the kid, she gets retraumatized by the event.

You automatically love to change the topic of discussion to LGBTQ whenever I’m around huh? Last time we were talking about crimes against transgendered people, you were like “all lives matter”, now you are pro-LGBTQ. I love how you’re maturing. I’ve lived in China btw. So lucky I was not killed or I wouldnt be having this discussion with you

It's called perspective. Try it sometime.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body.

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

It is true that 2000 years ago they thought that women were just incubators.

"Two and a half thousand years ago Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, noted that conception followed the ejaculation of semen into women. ... There the argument rested for two millennia, during which educated European men justified the oppression of women on the grounds that they were merely incubators."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...ncubators.html

[Sons to Glory!]

I think I'm about done with the Alternative world of things here . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think I'm about done with the Alternative world of things here . . .

You'll be missed ....

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

The baby is made from the mother’s body. Eve came from Adam, Adam didnt have a say in how his rib was stolen. Typical Christians.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby is made from the mother’s body. Eve came from Adam, Adam didnt have a say in how his rib was stolen. Typical Christians.

Sounds like foolish spiritual gobbledygook.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like foolish spiritual gobbledygook.

It’s biology; where do you think the baby’s cells multiplied from? Pregnancy has a big toll on a wan’s body. If a pregant woman’s life is endangered, and one could be saved, would you save the innocent baby or the woman’s life?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

It’s biology; where do you think the baby’s cells multiplied from? Pregnancy has a big toll on a wan’s body. If a pregant woman’s life is endangered, and one could be saved, would you save the innocent baby or the woman’s life?

You fabricate a hypothetical situation to justify millions of "convenience" murders? Pretty heartless.

According to your "biology," an unborn life has the same beginning and the same result as what you daily flush down the toilet.