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Old 12-29-2008, 05:55 PM   #1
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Default Parallel of Two Turmoils

www.twoturmoils.com


This website shows the parallel cause of two turmoils in the Lord's recovery.

"...Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes those who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God” (W.Nee, The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 184).

Conclusion

During both turmoils that consummated in major division, the promoters of the new center in the recovery did not keep the oneness of the Spirit, as the one trumpet for the Lord’s ministry became the one trumpet for the Lord’s recovery, narrowing the scope of oneness kept in the churches to a man, a ministry, and the LSM office. The promotions (essentially of a new center) featured in each turmoil were the driving wedge of division in the recovery. Graphic illustrations of this driving wedge in the late eighties are found in the book Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Seeing the history of this driving wedge will help those in the current turmoil to understand the real factors of division that took place in each turmoil and the sectarian mentality that our leadership in the recovery succumbed to in the first and continue to subject themselves to in the second. I speak of the reality of the behavior of our leadership, not its benign appearance and apparent innocence. For those that want to know what our actual history is and how it effects us today, our concepts of the benign and innocent have to be dropped in favor of the truth. The kingdom of God and His righteousness are at stake and will be our reward.

Praise the Lord! brothers and sisters.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

Indiana,

I realize that I have challenged you on your “style” in the past, but feel compelled to do so again. You have started several threads, including the three in this sub section of the forum, yet received only one reply within this subgroup (prior to this one) and few elsewhere except on three or so threads.

First, I should tell a little about myself. I am the kind of person who will read what the opposition has to say for the purpose of understanding both their thoughts and my own. In contexts outside of these LC discussions, I read from all sides of many issues. But I find it difficult to dig into books, articles, web sites, etc., that come off as too preachy about their position, especially if they seem to simply dismiss all others. (That has made it difficult to read back into Lee’s books because that is exactly how he approached most of his subjects. He was the master and what he said was too often to be taken as correct without discussion.)

Now, I also assume that you may be less interested in comments on your post and more interested in people clicking on the link to twoturmoils. And it may be having its effect to some degree. But despite my natural curiosity, my first impression is to skip it. Why? Because I would always read the rest of the post first. Since it consists of two sentences from Nee’s TNCCL, and then the concluding paragraph from the linked site — a paragraph that is highly critical of the existing leadership and even a little condescending of those who simply stick their head in the sand and hide from all negative reports — it will tend to have the opposite effect on those who really need to read it, or anything like it. They have already stuck their heads in the sand. Do you think that they will pick their heads out of the sand because you or anyone else says that is where their heads are? No. They will resist the charge and merely deflect back to you as being negative.

Your facts are well documented. But they are packaged in a manner that only those who already have some agreement will read. I liken it a little to the difference between reporting and editorializing, and between CNN and Fox News. If there is a story, the news will report it. But too often, the reporting is mixed with the editorial comments of the reporters. If you agree with those comments, you will tend to like to get your news from that source; if you do not you will avoid it. In terms of news channels, I like Fox. Others like CNN. To me, CNN is too openly liberal, not just in its editorial content, but in its editorializing of what should be simply the news. Fox has somewhat the opposite slant. They claim to be less editorializing in their reporting, and while I do believe that they are much less so, they still do some, but to the side I prefer. So if you tell me about something you heard on CNN, I will not likely respond until I hear the same story told on Fox. I am quite unlikely to simply turn on CNN to hear it. I don’t trust the source.

So those of us who are already on the side of understanding the gross failures and even wrongdoings of the LC leadership over the past 30 or more years don’t really need to visit your site. You have assembled snippets from sources with which many of us are quite familiar. But those who are not familiar with the materials, but only the claims of ambition and heresy so slanderously put out there by the LC leadership, they will consider your little introduction as proof that they are being asked to trust Pravda for their news. They will leave any reporting on your site to their own version of the CIA — the BBs.

Consider a new approach — even to the actual content on the site. A simple reporting of the events in a chronological sequence without editorial might get some bites. It might change some minds to at least consider discovering more. In effect, a "Two Turmoils" lite site as an introduction to a much meatier site.

Just my opinions.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

I dunno, I consider myself very much helped by Indiana's postings. I will agree that much is hard to follow (especially as the chronology is unclear), but even so it helps to bring many hidden things to light.

In combination with Hope's history of the early church life experience in the U.S. it serves as a warning and a help to those of us struggling to carry on what we have received from the Lord.
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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Originally Posted by OBW View Post
So those of us who are already on the side of understanding the gross failures and even wrongdoings of the LC leadership over the past 30 or more years don’t really need to visit your site. You have assembled snippets from sources with which many of us are quite familiar. But those who are not familiar with the materials, but only the claims of ambition and heresy so slanderously put out there by the LC leadership, they will consider your little introduction as proof that they are being asked to trust Pravda for their news. They will leave any reporting on your site to their own version of the CIA — the BBs.
For those that don't know Indiana spent time in SoCal in 2001 I believe where he interviewed many of these former leading brothers residing in Southern California. So his writing content was pulled out of thin air. I'm sure there are others besides myself where Indiana's efforts expalined what wasn't quite right with the Recovery. I'm sure there are others who knew bits and pieces of what's been laid out in the website.
Now, what about other people. For me it's not about persuading people not to meet, but rather adjusting attitudes to have a right heart toward brothers and sisters no longer meeting in the recovery. In order for that to happen there needs to be an balanced written history. Brothers like Hope and Indiana are doing just that.
Brothers and sisters that still meet in the local churches, these are some of the concepts I have encountered concerning the past:
A. They know some of what happened, but it's in the past. What matters is being faithful to the vision.
B. What was spoken by LSM is accurate and any counterpoint is rumor.
C. Apathy

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Old 12-31-2008, 10:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

I was not saying that Indiana's work was useless or without value. Instead, I was pointing out that its style was prone to dissuade those who were otherwise not in disagreement with the LC.

I would agree that those who have questions and have some willingness to pursue those questions might be ready to read the materials. I was thinking more in terms of making the site and Indiana’s posts more “friendly” to those not otherwise actively seeking answers.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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I was not saying that Indiana's work was useless or without value. Instead, I was pointing out that its style was prone to dissuade those who were otherwise not in disagreement with the LC.
I think those serious about writing books about the LC need to get the advice of a professional writer, and perhaps consider taking on a ghost writer. Otherwise an otherwise important message could be panned just because of an amateurish presentation.

He that hath an ear...
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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and perhaps consider taking on a ghost writer.
Hmmm, that's the second reference I've read today about "chasing ghosts"...
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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I think those serious about writing books about the LC need to get the advice of a professional writer, and perhaps consider taking on a ghost writer. Otherwise an otherwise important message could be panned just because of an amateurish presentation.

He that hath an ear...
OBW and Igzy, this is a "layman's" forum. We are looking for "personal" reports. Yes, I do my best to "polish" my own posts, and admit that style and grammer do support the perception of historical accuracy in what I read. But placing the exacting requirements of professional writing upon this forum or one's personal website is not necessary, helpful or wise even to suggest. Please reconsider.

Another consideration becomes readily apparent once SI's account becomes an "official book." He becomes vulnerable to LSM's legal team at DCP. JCA faced this with ToG and opted for pseudonyms. That was her choice. Steve should be supported for his choice. Whether or not it is "ameuterish," is something he can improve with others' help.
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:06 PM   #9
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Ohio,

I wasn't talking about personal websites or posts. I was talking about real books. I wasn't even talking about Steve. I've read two books published by former LCers. Jane Anderson's and John Myer's. Both are of professional quality.

My point was that anyone who wants their book to be well-received ought to at least find a friendly writer to proofread it for them and give them tips on writing. Friends can help, but an experienced writer will help more.

I've had several things published (no books) and I always at least get my wife to proofread them for me. (She rebukes me if I don't.) She almost always finds something wrong with my work, and more than once has saved me the embarrassment of submitting something that would have flopped.

If you publish in a conventional way, an editor will proofread and change your work before it goes out. But today anyone can self-publish and it might be tempting to skip having a knowledgeable proofreader. But that's a mistake in my opinion.

It's no offense to Steve, but frankly his writings read like the work of an unskilled writer, not helping to lessen the idea (which I'm sure LSM would like to play up) that he is a crank.

If any potential writers of LC history would like to send their work to me, I'd be happy to read it and offer suggestions.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:14 PM   #10
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I've read two books published by former LCers. Jane Anderson's and John Myer's.
Just a minor caveat: Dear Jane is a former LCer. John Myer is not.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:26 PM   #11
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The two turmoils website will be inaccessible for an indefinite period of time. This means none of my writings on the two forums will be accessible that were linked to www.twoturmoils.com.

The main objective of my communications with the saints began with desiring to build a bridge of communication between current and former members (In the Wake of the New Way).

And it has ended for now with a website comprised of a collection of writings from the Great Lakes area brothers, and also writings on past history from Don Rutledge and myself (Making Straight the Way of the Lord). The objective of this site was to show the overall line of deviation taken in the Lord’s recovery from its original path. Ideally, conscientious brothers could then come together and have restorative fellowship between themselves and among the churches. This site, then, will also not be available.

If anyone has need of a particular document or knows a seeking person who might benefit from a particular writing, let me know and I could send it by email.

Steve

Last edited by Indiana; 12-31-2008 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:28 PM   #12
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Ohio,

I understand your position. I did not intend to suggest that Steve’s work become a full-blown book, or that it needs to be grammatically correct (although too many gross grammatical errors often cause me to question the quality of what is being written as much as how it is written). I just feel that the tone of much of his work tends to drive a wedge between the content and potential readers. Ones who have seen the problems and are open to learn more about what has happened, especially in terms of what was essentially lied about — people like you, me, Terry, Toledo, and others — might ignore the tone since it is somewhat consistent with something that you/we already think. But those who have never even considered such things as possible but are lurking here (despite dire warnings of the BBs) are much more likely to simply move on to the next post or thread if it seems too didactically opposed, negative, or harsh without being given the opportunity to read real facts in a neutral way first.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:24 PM   #13
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Just a minor caveat: Dear Jane is a former LCer. John Myer is not.
Ahhhh ... I'm not so sure ... by his own admission he "was" ...
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:05 PM   #14
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Ahhhh ... I'm not so sure ... by his own admission he "was" ...
I am sure. I know him. It is not that he "was", but that he "is"...
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:09 PM   #15
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I am sure. I know him. It is not that he "was", but that he "is"...
Are we once again parsing what the word "is" is?
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Old 12-31-2008, 10:35 PM   #16
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I was not saying that Indiana's work was useless or without value. Instead, I was pointing out that its style was prone to dissuade those who were otherwise not in disagreement with the LC.

I would agree that those who have questions and have some willingness to pursue those questions might be ready to read the materials. I was thinking more in terms of making the site and Indiana’s posts more “friendly” to those not otherwise actively seeking answers.
I like Mike's sensitivity and his suggestions.

Last year he came after me for careless forum introductions I had made for writings, which I desired to have people link to. He was right in his concern. He had more to say about the writings and is very thorough and thoughtful in his critiques. I had asked him last year if he would like to help me, but there was no reply at that time. He does see things I don't.

I will write to him personally and ask him again to help. He can scrutinize, examine, and analyze to his heart's content over one, two, or three crucial writings that I have in mind.

Last edited by Indiana; 12-31-2008 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:42 PM   #17
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I think those serious about writing books about the LC need to get the advice of a professional writer, and perhaps consider taking on a ghost writer. Otherwise an otherwise important message could be panned just because of an amateurish presentation.

He that hath an ear...

Igzy's comment is very important.

Most of my writing, including posts, are not careless. But, a brother like Mike can spot when I have a breakdown and he is right and conscientious enough to reprimand me. (I am referring only to writings of mine that address local church history.)

Deviating from the Path took hundreds and hundreds of hours to write over a two-year period. One accusation by Dan Towle of John Ingalls took me 150 hours to write and perfect, again and again. If I wasn’t happy with it, I had to change it. If I saw something more or considered more carefully a reader’s reaction, I would change it again. In re-reading it over a period of time, which resulted in re-working it, I estimated that it took the 150 hours to complete – and on that particular accusation, I am still not completely happy. It is complex, involving intricate clarifications on different fronts for the reader to understand the bogus charge that was made.

Igzy has recommended that I get help from other people to edit. Of course I have done that. A brother edited this book five times; so he spent many hours also going through the writing. He had written two books himself for his business and felt he could help.

If Igzy can make helpful suggestions to improve this book and bring it to higher level of competency worthy of publishing, that is also along the lines of my thought to do. And, then the marketing…

The brother I mentioned also edited the first booklet, as did a brother in Texas. They both worked on it.

Books that I produced that were not edited are 1) the one about Andrew Yu and 2)the one about RK and KR. I don’t think these two books should be taken lightly; rather I hope that they also can be improved upon in the best way for publication – or re-written by someone else with use of information in my writing.

Igzy, you too, like Mike, critique, examine, analyze to your heart’s content, if you will indeed take up such a burden, as I am laying out.

Do recommend to me what should be changed and how to improve upon what I have done. If someone could do this job, it would be a worthy work, and fitting, for the presentation of the record so well before the Lord, and before the saints.

- a note: I also had no one edit People Change, a "book" that both Aron and CMW made reference to, negatively, which surprised me. And, Mike had commented that it is a serious book - which is true. I still don't understand the two saints' concern, but other eyes in editing could correct the tone, and some words, and be a help to me.

- the website twoturmoils.com offers a concise story of the history of division in the local churches. I like very much this comparatively short version of the history of deviation that affected "LSM churches" and the GLA as well. This site has not been edited.

Last edited by Indiana; 01-01-2009 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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The two turmoils website will be inaccessible for an indefinite period of time. This means none of my writings on the two forums will be accessible that were linked to www.twoturmoils.com.
Steve,
Maybe this is just my opinion only, but I'll throw it out there anyway. I lost any interest in your websites long ago, when I found out that you were willing to put the sites up and take them down at a whim, depending upon what you were, or what you thought you were accomplishing by having them up.

I got the impression that you thought you might have had the Blended Brothers in a choke hold by publishing the websites, and then were willing to give them some relief by backing off periodically - hoping to see them repent. How's that been working out for you? That's what I thought.

Why not post the truth, and just leave it up. There is nothing you can do to persuade Dan Towle or any of the Blended Brothers to have a change of heart. Joel K is not going to once again embrace you. Not gonna happen. I hope you can one day finally come to understand that. They don't care what you do, and you will never have any of them in a choke hold.

I fear for you, brother. I fear that one day you will find yourself setting in the middle of the floor, counting all the thousands of hours you have put in trying to get “reconciliation,” and come to the sad conclusion that it has all been for naught.

Just my opinion. But I also know from communicating with you in the past that this post is probably for naught.

Roger
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:12 AM   #19
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

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Ohio, ...
My point was that anyone who wants their book to be well-received ought to at least find a friendly writer to proofread it for them and give them tips on writing. Friends can help, but an experienced writer will help more.

I've had several things published (no books) and I always at least get my wife to proofread them for me. (She rebukes me if I don't.) She almost always finds something wrong with my work, and more than once has saved me the embarrassment of submitting something that would have flopped...
I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain point. I have written some small things and the heavily edited second booklet lost ALL edge and spiritual benefit due to the editor.
So, it can work both ways.
Editing helps and hurts.
Sue
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:04 PM   #20
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Roger refers to 2003 when the defamation litigation was going on and I had a website up for 2 mos on Hiding History that showed publicly we had our own history of defamation. When it didn't work to get the brothers' attention for fellowship over our own history and case of defamation, I took the site down. One reason for doing that was to protect innocent saints from information that I felt should first be for elders. Another reason was that the site was actually a hindrance to pursuing fellowship over the history and also over my being received back into the church.

When brothers here and in Anaheim showed no interest for the next 2 years to have fellowship, I became interested in the forum and eventually posted writings on the forum. I hadn’t taken any website down again till now.

Incidently, I won't be a bit regretful for the hours I have spent; it has been a deep and meaningful enjoyment and there is a supply while in the throes of bringing to light the truth on behalf of many saints and the Lord's name.

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Old 01-03-2009, 01:54 PM   #21
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I like Mike's sensitivity and his suggestions.

Last year he came after me for careless forum introductions I had made for writings, which I desired to have people link to. He was right in his concern. He had more to say about the writings and is very thorough and thoughtful in his critiques. I had asked him last year if he would like to help me, but there was no reply at that time. He does see things I don't.

I will write to him personally and ask him again to help. He can scrutinize, examine, and analyze to his heart's content over one, two, or three crucial writings that I have in mind.
Thanks for the vote of confidence and I have responded to your PM.

I would not make a very good editor. When I write, I do it my way in terms of style and language. That does not mean harsh or sweet, but it is clearly my writing v someone Else's. When I edit others (which I do occasionally) I try to only advise what is grammatically incorrect or what I do not understand or think is being said vaguely. In cases like your posts, the best I would want to do is tell you that I think you are approaching it in a manner that I think is putting a wedge between your message and your target. I would not want to rewrite it for you — not because I couldn't but because that would make it my post. It is just one of my principles of editing. If I have to start writing, I would rather it just become mine.

This stems from a time years ago when a supervisor would rewrite my memos in his way. (It was pretty poor.) One day our common boss came in and asked what a particular memo was saying. When he figured out what was intended, he reworded it back to what I had originally said. I decided at that time that I would not take responsibility for the style of another's writing no matter how much I wanted to. I would make comments to them to hopefully make changes, but I would not take the responsibility.

In any case, as the new year begins, I am now finding my time to frequent this forum dwindling again. I hope to at least keep up with the reading, but I may be limited in my ability to write and respond.

Please do your best (everyone) to be diligent in the faith and in love for one another.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:41 AM   #22
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I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain point. I have written some small things and the heavily edited second booklet lost ALL edge and spiritual benefit due to the editor.
So, it can work both ways.
Editing helps and hurts.
Sue
Good point. I used to get things published in a local paper. The editor had this irritating habit of changing my punctuation and so changing my meaning. Once he totally reversed the meaning of a sentence I wrote. Grrrrr.

The good news is the Indiana has the final say on any informal edits.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:01 AM   #23
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Default Re: Parallel of Two Turmoils

One thing I like about John Myer's writing is that he doesn't write with the tone or style of a local churcher. He doesn't say things like "these dear ones" or "may the Lord ever lead us...," which sound archaic. (Wouldn't "these dear folks" and "let's pray the Lord leads us..." be more accessible?) He writes for a modern audience. His book could be read by a non-LCer and the only odd thing would be the content, not the style.

WL used the same language and illustrations from 1955 to 1997. This might make some think his words sound timeless. Some said that Mr. Rogers, the children's TV host, did the same thing. They said his shows could be shown to any generation because he looked the same in 2001 as he did in 1968. He was timeless.

The problem is that Mr. Roger's popularity is waning. His style is behind the times. Some might say that's our loss, but regardless, he doesn't resonate like he used to.

The message of truth has to keep pace with the language of the times. Some might not like the Bible paraphrase The Message (My wife is deeply suspicious of it. I like it.), but what it does help to do is shatter the illusion that the Bible was written in some kind of lofty "high church" language. It wasn't. It was written in common language, the way people spoke at the time.
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The two truths "obey your leaders" and "let each be fully persuaded in his own mind" cannot co-exist without the concession that (1) we need to respect those who part ways with us for reasons of conscience, and (2) the logical corollary that we must respect other gatherings in our locality.
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