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Old 08-09-2011, 05:34 PM   #1
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Default Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

www.twoturmoils.com/SubtleIssues.pdf

What two major leaders in “the Lord’s recovery referred to as “subtle issues” and “dissenting accusations”, others regarded as major matters of Christian conscience and causes of stumbling that needed desperate attention from responsible church leaders.

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Old 08-09-2011, 09:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

It has been 14 years since Ron spoke those words. Does he still feel that way in 2011?
Does Ron think saints left the local churches over subtle issues of right and wrong and not over gross sin?
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

Here's an interesting perspective concerning right and wrong that I heard recently. The problem is not that we came to know right from wrong, good from evil, as the result of Adam's sin. It was that we ceased to take God as the source of our knowledge of good and evil and instead substituted our own "enhanced" knowledge. It started immediately with the realization of nakedness and the sewing of leaves together as a cover.

"Who told you that you were naked?" The answer is "we told ourselves."

What the entire teaching by Lee on this subject misses is that it is not that right and wrong is a problem, and that staying away from trying to determine right from wrong is a solution. It is that we are willing, and ready, to take our own way on the subject. Like declaring that we can ignore right and wrong and just care for the spirit (or Spirit). If you use some mantra about death as a way to avoid the truth, then you are intentionally choosing evil according to your own way. Why your own way? Because if we truly cared for the Spirit, we would find that He really does lead us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we aren't there, then we really didn't care for the Spirit.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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It has been 14 years since Ron spoke those words. Does he still feel that way in 2011?
Does Ron think saints left the local churches over subtle issues of right and wrong and not over gross sin?
What really baffles me is not that they are surprised that some left. It is that more don't just scream out that this rule that accepts evil because talking about its occurrence bothers you can't be righteous.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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What really baffles me is not that they are surprised that some left. It is that more don't just scream out that this rule that accepts evil because talking about its occurrence bothers you can't be righteous.
Who is to say there weren't more that spoke out. Still there is the thought many have left silently because;
1. Objection=divisiveness
2. Realization speaking out if on church property=escort off church property
3. An awareness brothers are to reject posionous speaking and anything noted as objection=poison.

Since there is no way for there to be a forum within the local assembly to be listened to, one recourse of action is coming to this internet forum.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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What the entire teaching by Lee on this subject misses is that it is not that right and wrong is a problem, and that staying away from trying to determine right from wrong is a solution. It is that we are willing, and ready, to take our own way on the subject. Like declaring that we can ignore right and wrong and just care for the spirit (or Spirit). If you use some mantra about death as a way to avoid the truth, then you are intentionally choosing evil according to your own way. Why your own way? Because if we truly cared for the Spirit, we would find that He really does lead us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we aren't there, then we really didn't care for the Spirit.
The decades old mantra of not caring for right and wrong has become an evasive slogan to avoid confronting unrighteous matters. There is too much fleshly incentive for the brothers to be one with one another that unrighteousness cannot be confronted and as a result unrighteousness is tolerated.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

"Life" was supposed to transcend "good and evil". This is a dangerous teaching espoused by would-be mystics, anarchists, radical philosophers like Nietzsche and the cult of experience. It is a cloak behind which to hide unethical and illegal acts.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Since there is no way for there to be a forum within the local assembly to be listened to, one recourse of action is coming to this internet forum.
I've heard a present LRCer complain of this very thing. There is no forum in which you can even ask a question.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:32 AM   #9
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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I've heard a present LRCer complain of this very thing. There is no forum in which you can even ask a question.
Whine, whine...

Here's one : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/localchurch/
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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I've heard a present LRCer complain of this very thing. There is no forum in which you can even ask a question.
Much more spiritual to just stare at each other...
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Cases of Noah and Ham; David and Saul

Last year I received a few emails from an LC brother from California who had a question for me. Below are three paragraphs from his first letter.

Greetings brother Steve,

I just read your history of the local churches. Much of it I was aware of as I first came to the church in 1978 and had lived through a great deal of it. Some of it was new, but not much. And, since I was in fellowship with what can only be described as 'both sides', I am aware of each sides points of view as regards the history of the difficulties.


Without discounting many of the legitimate concerns about LSM and the rest of the history, I have a question for you: Is not publishing such a report the same as Ham spreading an evil report about his father, Noah? Or as if David had struck down King Saul, as he surely had the right to have done? Both Noah and Saul were wrong. The blessing had even left Saul, yet David would not raise his hand against him.


Surely, Brother Lee is our spiritual father as much as Brother Nee is our grandfather. All we have received has come as a result of the ministry of Brother Lee. Yes, some serious mistakes have been made. Yes, we know all about them, and some are quite disturbing. Yet, except I had touched the recovery, I would not have received such a rich spiritual benefit for the last 30 years... it must be stated that serious mistakes have been made.... yet, I am reminded of Ham and David.


A sister then shared in response the following:
Dearest Brothers,

As I read over the exchange of emails, my heart was grieved. I paid my "dues." I was in Witness Lee's movement--and a very staunch supporter--for 20 years (in "the golden days," from 1969 to 1989), until my eyes were opened to the corruption and the truth some 20 years ago. I understood all the doctrine--including the huge, conscience-binding emphasis on the Old Testament types of Noah and David, which were developed by Watchman Nee (our "grandfather") in the book "Spiritual Authority."


What really helped me, though, was to go to the Scriptures and see that there are clear NEW TESTAMENT Scriptures (not Old Testament pictures and types (from which we are left to deduce meanings), but clear, black and white blatantly strong WORDS)which make it clear that we are NEVER, NEVER to permit sin in the leadership---no matter how "darling" or "dear" the corrupt leader may be to us (completely WITHOUT PARTIALITY):


First Timothy 5:19-22 says EMPHATICALLY (verse 21: "I CHARGE YOU BEFORE GOD and the Lord Jesus Schrist and the elect angels that you observe these things WITHOUT PREJUDICE, doing nothing with PARTIALITY"---not even with respect to your dear "father" and/or "grandfather.")


What things are we CHARGED BEFORE GOD to do WITHOUT PARTIALITY? We are charged to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that sinning leaders of God's flock are exposed and PUBLICLY REBUKED if they are in sin, have been approached about that sin, and have failed to repent and turn from that sin. In fact, the only clear rendering of verse 22 that I have seen is the Wuest translation. It says: "Be laying hands hastily on not even one [elder, that is, do not reinstate a sinning elder hastily], neither be a partner in others' sins."


I understand this to say that if we, through carelessness or sentimentality, allow a corrupt leader to remain or return to "authority," and they continue in sin, we ourselves become a "partner" in that sin.


God cares for the church. We old LCers know how drastically God dealt with Moses for being in authority and misrepresenting God to His people. No doubt, the demand for public exposure of sinning elders (once it is clear on the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses) is for the protection of the flock. Such men should NOT be "covered" or their sins not dealt with. Every believer is charged with impartiality to deal within the house of God for pure leadership. I, for one, would never be willing to be a part of that wicked movement---even though I know there are many dear, ignorant saints (apart from the leadership) who are blindly held hostage there.


Oh, and by the way, if you prefer Old Testament types to New Testament charges, I would like to ask about the type of Aaron, as an authority UNDER Moses, and how God dealt with Aaron and ended his life. WHY did God remove Aaron's ministry (stripping him of his priestly garments) and take away his life? Was it for the heinous sin of creating the golden calf? NO! God clearly says that the reason her was taking Aaron's life it was because "you rebelled against my word AT THE WATERS OF MERIBAH" (Num. 20:24). If you investigate the details of what Aaron "did" at the waters of Meribah, there is absolutely no mention of him having DONE anything. He was simply present and was identified, in the people's eyes, with Moses' sin. In God's words, God then spoke "to Moses AND AARON, 'Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.'" When Moses MISREPRESENTED God at the waters of Meribah, Aaron stood there and did NOTHING. In so doing, he became a "partner" of another man's sins (as we are CHARGED not to do in 1 Tim. 5;22).


The same thing happened to the man of God in 1 Kings 13. He got a clear leading from the Lord, but he was so enamored with the "stature" of the old prophet that he failed to be a Berean. He simply deferred to the "stature" of the old prophet. Unfortunately for him, God judged his deference more strongly than he judged the old prophet's deception. If Old Testament types should be that governing for our behavior, I think we need to be VERY cautious how much we defer to "delegated authorities when the Lord is speaking to us in a different way---or when that "authority" is in obvious unrighteousness or sin.


Admittedly, I was helped to get weaned from Lee when, in the early 1980's I read his deposition which was taken during the lawsuit he had initiated regarding the book, "The Mindbenders." I was in the LC at that time. I took copious notes in trainings; I had the LC church history, issues, dialogs, doctrines, etc. down like the back of my hand. I THOUGHT I had somewhat of an understanding of Lee. (He had been in our home and visited my husband, who was a business man, when Lee was trying to drum up funds for Daystar, the Lee family motor-home business that was being funded by fleecing the sheep in the name of "church service"). The man speaking in that deposition was an entirely different man. In answer after answer he perjured himself at the drop of a hat. Or, even stranger to me, he pled being an old man with a loss of memory. (All I had ever known was this "gifted" speaker who, even as a very old man, prided himself in having a clear mind and rattled off statistics, etc.) I couldn't BELIEVE what I was reading as his deposition, given under oath, under penalty of perjury! After reading it, even though I was still in the LC, I wanted to call the authorities and give them clear documentation from messages, trainings, printed matter, etc. that the things he was saying under oath directly contradicted things he had said to us a "the church." Wow! What an eye-opener!


Even today, when I hear people say that Lee was so pure, etc. and that corruption went on around him (as if it was unbeknownst to him), I can't buy into it. I'm so thankful I have a clear conscience about where I meet and with whom. No teat is so precious to me that I am willing to call evil good and good evil--at least, not at this point (I haven't been proven unto death yet). I just think there's something wrong when people say, "This thing is so GREAT, I'm willing to overlook sin and am willing to sear my conscience in order to have what I consider a 'living" church life.'"


(As our "grandfather" said in "The Normal Christian Church Life" (or, "Concerning Our Missions"): If ANY group of the Lord's people is under a single ministry, that group is automatically a SECT (obviously, this is my paraphrase---but Nee says that in his book)....


There should be an honest exposure. Those poor saints who worship Lee should know the real nature of the man. I think Steve did an incredible, much-needed service to the Body of Christ by compiling the facts regarding much of the corruption of the LC and its leadership. I just marvel that he still thinks it's worth his time to knock on the doors of those corrupt leaders---as if they really didn't know how corrupt they are and the lives that they've ruined of so many sincere saints. In that day, I believe there will be a lot of millstones around the necks of many that are being looked up to in that organization.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

"Referring to the talk going around in the church about certain issues, he said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to those concerned with issues of right and wrong in the church."

What a travesty.....what a travesty feelings of members of the Body is marginalized, minimized, and devalued.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:40 PM   #13
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Without discounting many of the legitimate concerns about LSM and the rest of the history, I have a question for you: Is not publishing such a report the same as Ham spreading an evil report about his father, Noah? Or as if David had struck down King Saul, as he surely had the right to have done? Both Noah and Saul were wrong. The blessing had even left Saul, yet David would not raise his hand against him.

Surely, Brother Lee is our spiritual father as much as Brother Nee is our grandfather. All we have received has come as a result of the ministry of Brother Lee. Yes, some serious mistakes have been made. Yes, we know all about them, and some are quite disturbing. Yet, except I had touched the recovery, I would not have received such a rich spiritual benefit for the last 30 years. And it must be stated that serious mistakes have been made on BOTH sides of this situation. And yet, I am reminded of Ham and David....
Noah and Ham:
as I was raised hearing this analogy, my thought was if it was meant to be covered over, it wouldn't be in the Bible. God's Word is an exposing Word.

David and Saul:
David had opportunity to strike Saul down while he slept. Instead David gave grace to Saul.

Spiritual father:
I cannot call any man or woman my spiritual father. Matthew 23:9 explicitly says, "Do not call anyone on earth your father ; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."

Brother Lee is with the Lord. He is no longer alive to speak. There are brothers, elders, co-workers who are still with us and who were party if not bystanders to bearing of false witness of certain former elders. These brothers, elders, and co-workers should have some response. This is why I have considered Indiana's writings bearing significance.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Whine, whine...

Here's one : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/localchurch/
Can you actually ask a question and get a real answer? Or are you simply protected from excommunication because they can't find you?
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:13 PM   #15
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Can you actually ask a question and get a real answer? Or are you simply protected from excommunication because they can't find you?
I was excommunicated from that Yahoo Group, when I revealed I was an exLCer. Got Kangas involved, and even he couldn't do anything about it, so he claimed.

I shared what I went thru with Mel Porter, and that was it...banned from the group, without a warning. One of the moderators, a Chinese brother, contacted me and said if he had gone thru what I went thru he'd leave the LC too. And he put me back on the forum. But another moderator kicked me off again.

Contacted Kangas about it. He said he'd look into it. Then told me that he couldn't override the moderators. Yeah right.

But it is a pro-local church forum.... And you can ask questions. Just be careful.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:09 AM   #16
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First Timothy 5:19-22 says EMPHATICALLY (verse 21: "I CHARGE YOU BEFORE GOD and the Lord Jesus Schrist and the elect angels that you observe these things WITHOUT PREJUDICE...
This is either how the Scottish say his name, or how I say it after a couple too many shots o' whiskey...
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:22 AM   #17
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What things are we CHARGED BEFORE GOD to do WITHOUT PARTIALITY? We are charged to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that sinning leaders of God's flock are exposed and PUBLICLY REBUKED if they are in sin, have been approached about that sin, and have failed to repent and turn from that sin. In fact, the only clear rendering of verse 22 that I have seen is the Wuest translation. It says: "Be laying hands hastily on not even one [elder, that is, do not reinstate a sinning elder hastily], neither be a partner in others' sins."

I understand this to say that if we, through carelessness or sentimentality, allow a corrupt leader to remain or return to "authority," and they continue in sin, we ourselves become a "partner" in that sin.
I had the impression that "laying hands on hastily" referred to, shall we say, being too quick to get someone in trouble? Sort of the opposite of "reinstating" someone.


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God cares for the church. We old LCers know how drastically God dealt with Moses for being in authority and misrepresenting God to His people. No doubt, the demand for public exposure of sinning elders (once it is clear on the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses) is for the protection of the flock. Such men should NOT be "covered" or their sins not dealt with. Every believer is charged with impartiality to deal within the house of God for pure leadership. I, for one, would never be willing to be a part of that wicked movement---even though I know there are many dear, ignorant saints (apart from the leadership) who are blindly held hostage there.
Yes, there are many who are unaware of the things that went on.

But I always have this nagging reminder of all those folks (not in the leadership) who do know, who plow ahead as committed as ever, if not more committed than before.

What do we make of that?
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:57 AM   #18
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Sorry to post again, but this whole thing really boils down to this --

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Old 08-11-2011, 08:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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However you slice it, there is no escaping this fact -- some brothers have left us and started another, separate group. Some on our side are against your side. Some on your side are against our side. This is division. There is no other word for it. No matter how many good, solid, correct and utterly righteous reasons there may have been for it, some have formed a division. Above EVERY other sin, division is the worst! This you already know to be true. And we both have allowed our leaders to commit division. We cannot stand with them in this matter.
This paragraph, within the context of a larger letter, expresses well the bondage WL placed us in. He identified so-called "division" as the worst sin of all. What a prison of fear to hold all the members of the LC! And I should add this is exactly the same indictment leveled by Rome against all the Reformers.

There is no way that we can honor the man of God, Martin Luther, for his mighty work of faith, and then condemn John Ingalls for the same actions. Both brothers acted for conscience' sake, in obedience to the word of God, against the perceived evils of their day. They left an aberrant and deteriorating system, and subsequently met with other like-minded believers. Both were condemned with starting a division.

The greatest division is to create a system which separates God from His people. To leave that system, with the goal of returning to the Lord and His word, cannot be condemned as a "division," any more than the Reformation could be. Why cannot those who leave the Recovery meet with other believers? WHY does LSM condemn them for simply following their conscience? Why does LSM demand that these ones live forever in isolation? Why does LSM continually distort the real reasons these ones have left?

These are the real questions we should be addressing.
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Old 08-12-2011, 03:39 AM   #20
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This reminds me of Hebrews where they were "for all their life held in bondage in fear of death".
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:02 AM   #21
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The more you write, the more you solidify yourself and others into division. Again, as I stated above, you have been an excellent scribe in recording much of the truth of what has happened among us. And I do not question the accuracy of your reporting or of your love of the Lord, the saints, the Word, or matters of the divine truth. But I feel that your writings are on the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The fact that you are correct in the details and facts only shows that you are on some of the so-called 'good' branches' of the evil tree. Being 'right' does not mean being in life. This is a hard lesson but I have learned the truth of it in my over 30 years in the church.
While I do appreciate the kind attitude displayed towards Steve Isitt, these concepts are troublesome. Steve has been documenting the brief history of the so-called Recovery in America. His goal is to preserve the facts of history to positively effect the many members in the LC's. To relegate his work to "the tree of knowledge," is in principle the same as eliminating half of the Old Testament. How many millions of Bible readers have read of David's sins with Bathsheeba? How much better would it have been to strike those portions of scripture, and record only the noble accomplishments of the "man after God's own heart?" Surely David as the "type" of the later MOTA's should have re-written history in a more favorable light! Shouldn't King David have held a Whistler-like Quarantine for Nathan the Prophet before turning him into a pile of rubble?!?

But alas ... the Bible is not the words of man, neither written nor re-written by our past leaders. The Bible addresses failures without the respect of persons. God has good reasons to do this! More troublesome to me than just dwelling on "some 'good' branches' of the evil tree," is the crafty system of error which so shields itself of all culpability.

The corollary to this thought is the equally upsetting, though unspoken, premise that every ministry book is part of the "tree of life."
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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There is no way that we can honor the man of God, Martin Luther, for his mighty work of faith, and then condemn John Ingalls for the same actions. Both brothers acted for conscience' sake, in obedience to the word of God, against the perceived evils of their day.
Martin Luther with the RCC and John Ingalls with LSM, how can these brothers reconcile what was expected from the system of their time and their conscience?
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:56 PM   #23
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The corollary to this thought is the equally upsetting, though unspoken, premise that every ministry book is part of the "tree of life."
Ohio is being generous. Here is Witness Lee quoting John Ingalls (!), courtesy of Steve Isitt:
John Ingalls gave the highest endorsement imaginable of Brother Lee’s ministry, which is recorded in seven pages of The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, p. 44-51. Brother Lee shares, “As late as March 1986, John spoke strongly for the one accord and the ministry in a conference in Mexico City, saying that ‘when you leave the ministry you leave your first love’; that ‘when we leave the ministry we have fallen’; that ‘the ministry brings us the tree of life’; that ‘the ministry prepares us in such a way to be faithful unto death’; that ‘when we take this ministry…we get the hidden manna’; that ‘the ministry is like the morning star to us’; that ‘the Lord is coming through the ministry’; that ‘the ministry brings us the seven Spirits’; and that ‘by keeping the ministry we become Philadelphia’. This message was given only one month after I gave the messages on one accord in the elders’ training in February 1986. Surely it was a strong confirmation of my messages, showing that the speaker was more than positive toward my ministry”.
http://www.hidinghistoryinthelordsre...yAddressed.pdf
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Old 08-13-2011, 04:23 AM   #24
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Wow! WL equated all of those things that JI said towards "the ministry" with "my ministry"? I think this establishes beyond a doubt that by 1986 WL had gone over the deep end. He may have had this unspoken thought his entire life, don't know, but this is clearly scary by 1986.
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Old 08-13-2011, 05:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Wow! WL equated all of those things that JI said towards "the ministry" with "my ministry"? I think this establishes beyond a doubt that by 1986 WL had gone over the deep end. He may have had this unspoken thought his entire life, don't know, but this is clearly scary by 1986.
Z, if you haven't already, you might read the rest of the section, on p. 11 of the link to Steve Isitt's site.

Witness Lee seems awfully comfortable making repeated references to "me" and "my ministry".
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Z, if you haven't already, you might read the rest of the section, on p. 11 of the link to Steve Isitt's site.

Witness Lee seems awfully comfortable making repeated references to "me" and "my ministry".
I couldn't stand to read any of his later ministry after the Life Study of the NT.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:03 AM   #27
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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I couldn't stand to read any of his later ministry after the Life Study of the NT.
Thinking of TFOTPR as "ministry" is almost kind of funny.

Just follow the link, I think Witness Lee's attitude toward "the ministry of the age" is all too clear...George Harrison wrote a song about it...
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Old 08-13-2011, 01:10 PM   #28
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Witness Lee seems awfully comfortable making repeated references to "me" and "my ministry".
Of course. While Witness Lee was among us, his ministry was his ministry. However don't confuse Witness Lee's ministry with the Lord's Ministry.
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Old 08-13-2011, 01:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Of course. While Witness Lee was among us, his ministry was his ministry. However don't confuse Witness Lee's ministry with the Lord's Ministry.
You have to go back to Post #25 to see how alarming this is.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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However you slice it, there is no escaping this fact -- some brothers have left us and started another, separate group. Some on our side are against your side. Some on your side are against our side. This is division. There is no other word for it. No matter how many good, solid, correct and utterly righteous reasons there may have been for it, some have formed a division. Above EVERY other sin, division is the worst! This you already know to be true. And we both have allowed our leaders to commit division. We cannot stand with them in this matter.

As I stated above, very little of what you are sending me is news. Speaking only for myself, I readily recognize, admit and concede that there were evils -- both gross and subtile -- committed among us that were not properly and swiftly dealt with as they should have been, to the detriment and stumbling of many dear saints. And some who committed these evils are still among us. It is a grief and a shame.

The divisions must stop. And it first must stop with you and with me. Of two things, I am sure. For the divisions to cease will come from the small saints, not from the leading ones. And it will not come from facts, but through love and forgiveness. Without Love and Forgiveness, then I fear we are BOTH in sects, and can join the Brethren in the history books.
I agree with some of the content here the brother wrote to Steve as I have those portions in bold. Definitely without love and forgiveness. Honestly, the love that exists is not the love of God, but the love of man; a natural love. A kind of love Jesus speaks of in Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them." How can there be forgiveness if there's no willingness to even acknowedge those that offended. The brother writing the email brought up Max's name. What about Max. What if he repented? What if I said Max went to Francis Ball's memorial a few years ago?

Divisions must stop and it must stop with you and me. Amen! Simultaneously would ones meeting in the local churches raise an objection next time a blended brother makes references to rebellions? I can understand why brothers in places like Toronto, Detroit, etc may feel it's not profitable to bring up past matters. Many of come in to the local churches since 1990.

It's this same matter that has bothered me when I did meet with the local churches. Elders/co-workerds have been unimpeded in their speaking or in print in running down brothers and even localities that separated from LSM fellowship. Is this normal in other Christian circles? In other words instead of running down brothers, is there grace given. In Acts 15:39 Paul and Barnabas separated over Mark. In Paul's letter to the Colossians, Paul wrote if Mark came they were to receive him.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:10 PM   #31
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Cool Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Z, if you haven't already, you might read the rest of the section, on p. 11 of the link to Steve Isitt's site.

Witness Lee seems awfully comfortable making repeated references to "me" and "my ministry".
Yawn,,,

Like were really on to something...

Despite all of the negative there was plenty of positive.

It has been said that Witness Lee had repented of his shortcomings before his end on this sphere.

I have heard this from credible men close to him.

Therefore, the subtle issue to me at least is:
Is this right or wrong making assumptions not based on fact?

I am often amazed by the types that frequent this board.(Don't get me wrong, I recognize and appreciate many here for their gift of expression.)

However, I am quite perplexed by those who have moved on and profess to be in the body life outside of the LC. Surely there has been some growth of maturity here?

It seems as though this board is turning into the "Bereans worst" board. Yikes!

Let me leave you with this statement,
May we all be judged according to the way we judged. Yikes! once more!

Peace,

Don Jr.
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THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

For with what judgement we judge we shall be judged. Good enough to say twice (I mean thrice)
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: Consider This

www.hidinghistoryinthelordsrecovery.us/DivisionCause.pdf

WITNESS LEE: “Most people pay their attention to the matter of being right or wrong. However, in today’s situation, it is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a matter of whether we are divisive or not.” (W. L., 1989, Elders’ Training, Book 10, p. 110).
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Should we listen to the churches or take care of our own personal observation of the situation? If we put the notification of so many churches aside and go to investigate the situation for ourselves, this is an offending to the Body. Do we respect the Body or do we respect ourselves?
The body Witness Lee is talking about is : His ministry, not the body of Christ, who those he's quarantining is a member of.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Consider This

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WITNESS LEE: “Most people pay their attention to the matter of being right or wrong. However, in today’s situation, it is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a matter of whether we are divisive or not.” (W. L., 1989, Elders’ Training, Book 10, p. 110).
Something I've been thinking about time and time again, what is it to be divisive?
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:51 PM   #36
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Something I've been thinking about time and time again, what is it to be divisive?
My opinion on the matter is when one speaks of another believer in Christ without reverent fear of The Lords business.

This causes division both with the The Head and potentially the whole body.

Take into consideration the account when brother BM went to TL, at first glance it appeared to be a foolish move. But now from hindsight vision/our perpective has changed and we can clearly see his actions were honorable . BM actions displayed a spirit of reverent fear for The Lords business. His motive was pure and not divisive.

For the most part, I wish I could witness the same attitude here.

Peace to all men,

Don Jr.
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"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:10 PM   #37
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Yawn,,,
Like were really on to something...
Despite all of the negative there was plenty of positive.
It has been said that Witness Lee had repented of his shortcomings before his end on this sphere.
I have heard this from credible men close to him.
Therefore, the subtle issue to me at least is:
Is this right or wrong making assumptions not based on fact?
I am often amazed by the types that frequent this board.(Don't get me wrong, I recognize and appreciate many here for their gift of expression.)
However, I am quite perplexed by those who have moved on and profess to be in the body life outside of the LC. Surely there has been some growth of maturity here?
It seems as though this board is turning into the "Bereans worst" board. Yikes!
Let me leave you with this statement,
May we all be judged according to the way we judged. Yikes! once more!
Peace,
Don Jr.
manna-man,
You're on to something? Really? Please share with us!
Sincerely,rl
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For the most part, I wish I could witness the same attitude here.
P.S. Thanks for not judging us!
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:17 PM   #38
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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It seems as though this board is turning into the "Bereans worst" board. Yikes!
I sure can't agree with this statement. The numerous posters considered "Bereans worst" are not even registered here.

Can you say more about what's troubling you.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:35 PM   #39
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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manna-man,
You're on to something? Really? Please share with us!
Sincerely,
rl

P.S. Thanks for not judging us!
I guess that struck a chord...

You may not agree my friend but that was my version of speaking the truth in love. Now please don't get all cerebral on me.

Peace,

Don Jr
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Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
ADMINISTRATING MEDICINE TO THE DEAD"
THOMAS PAINE
Prov 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

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Old 08-14-2011, 06:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Consider This

God is not mocked, you reap what you sow. It is very much according to this principle that people who treated others deceitfully and abusively would themselves reap that.

That said I would encourage all to err on the side of caution. My experience is that the Lord's judgement is far tougher than anything I would dish out. So why try to usurp His position?
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My opinion on the matter is when one speaks of another believer in Christ without reverent fear of The Lords business.

This causes division both with the The Head and potentially the whole body.

Take into consideration the account when brother BM went to TL, at first glance it appeared to be a foolish move. But now from hindsight vision/our perpective has changed and we can clearly see his actions were honorable .
BM actions displayed a spirit of reverent fear for The Lords business. His motive was pure and not divisive.

For the most part, I wish I could witness the same attitude here.

Peace to all men,

Don Jr.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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I sure can't agree with this statement. The numerous posters considered "Bereans worst" are not even registered here.

Can you say more about what's troubling you.
I did dear brother in my reply to Terry's question on what is divisive. Please let me know if my example wasn't clear enough.

As always Peace.
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Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
ADMINISTRATING MEDICINE TO THE DEAD"
THOMAS PAINE
Prov 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

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Old 08-14-2011, 08:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

As with the example you brought up, can a conscientous objector be considered divisive? It hasn't happened yet, though I plan on bringing up the question to the pastor of the community church where we meet.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

I was once was trouble by something in my earlier years and went to an elder for advice that would console my spirit from my distress .

He looked at me with a concerned look on his face and asked...Did you bring this before The Lord?

I was embarrassed to say that I hadn't. He understood somewhat and encouraged me to do so. What a life lesson!

I learned to run to The Lord for all things instead of man That experience needed to happen for me to get it.
I now laugh at that experience.
What say ye brother ?

Should I comment on something I know very little about?

The only answer I can give is to follow what your concience is convicting you to do but first ask Him.
This is right.

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Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
ADMINISTRATING MEDICINE TO THE DEAD"
THOMAS PAINE
Prov 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

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Old 08-14-2011, 09:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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I guess that struck a chord...

You may not agree my friend but that was my version of speaking the truth in love. Now please don't get all cerebral on me.

Peace,

Don Jr
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:40 PM   #45
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Should I comment on something I know very little about?
I guess you think we just shouldn't be discussing the things from the 80's? Or else you're referring to something else, that I'm totally missing here?...
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:49 PM   #46
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

I am not sure what you are missing. I believe brother ZNP understood.

Good night Ray.
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Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
ADMINISTRATING MEDICINE TO THE DEAD"
THOMAS PAINE
Prov 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

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Old 08-14-2011, 10:13 PM   #47
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Good night, sir.
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:55 AM   #48
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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Did you bring this before The Lord?

The only answer I can give is to follow what your concience is convicting you to do but first ask Him.
That is I how I approached marriage and who to marry. As for the matter of quarantines, there's a relative 20 year history going on. Bringing to the Lord and heeding your conscience may not be in agreement to man's concepts. There were and are brothers who out of the Lord's leading and out of their conscience choose not to obey the quarantine. For some they were conscientious objectors, but considered divisive by LSM for not heeding the quarantine. As I paraphrase, those who followed the Lord's leading, were "rebelling aganist the feeling of the Body".
Understand?
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

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That is I how I approached marriage and who to marry. As for the matter of quarantines, there's a relative 20 year history going on. Bringing to the Lord and heeding your conscience may not be in agreement to man's concepts. There were and

are brothers who out of the Lord's leading and out of their conscience choose not to obey the quarantine. For some they were conscientious objectors, but considered divisive by LSM for not heeding the quarantine. As I paraphrase, those who followed the Lord's leading, were "rebelling aganist the feeling of the Body".
Understand?
I understand. You are preaching to the choir.

We have had more than twenty years to examine our history. If we are honest with ourselves we will come to the reality of the situation.

This reality 'if'' we are truely seeking Him, is whether or not we are indeed following the leading and our concience.

Yes, we have the human equation also. People who enter in innocent or not wise enough to detect the spiritual dangers.

The Lord is able to preserve those who are faithful to Him. Yet, there will always be those who will be tossed by the waves and carried away in the currents of the self.

This by no means gives us a license to disregaured the high calling of Holyness in Christ Jesus.

May we maintain a healthy reverence of Him for to fear God is the begining of Wisdom.

As always Peace.

Don Jr
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Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
"TO ARGUE WITH A MAN WHO HAS RENOUNCED
THE USE AND AUTHORITY OF REASON IS LIKE
ADMINISTRATING MEDICINE TO THE DEAD"
THOMAS PAINE
Prov 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

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Old 08-15-2011, 09:59 PM   #50
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Default The Divine Romance

Something I always have in mind as I write is the oneness we have in Christ and the portion we all share of Christ, as saints in the light. Whether those on the forum or those I write about, we all share a common life within and should be one. Addressing the problems can be viewed as a positive matter, if our endeavor is, principally, for "keeping the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace."

www.lordsrecovery.us/DivineRomance.pdf
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:02 AM   #51
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Steve, who wrote this article? I notice it sounds like it might have been written by Witness Lee, yet the author is not credited?
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:47 AM   #52
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Something I always have in mind as I write is the oneness we have in Christ and the portion we all share of Christ, as saints in the light.
For everyone:

When I read a sentence such as this, I wonder what we meant by these phrases during our days in the LRC.

Was the "oneness we have in Christ" unique among those in the LRC or did that include all Christians without reservation?

What is the "portion we all share of Christ"? It seems that "portion of Christ" was thrown about quite a bit. It was an important part of the unique terminology in our lexicon. What exactly did this mean and where did we get it?

When we said "as saints in the light," did we consider that to be somehow unique to the LRC? Is there still a lingering sense that there are saints that are not "in the light" based on our assessment of their affiliation? If we say or hear the word "saints" do we automatically think of all Christians or do we think in terms of some subset, even if greater than just the LRC?

I think that the first is not so much of a problem to me any more. I understand oneness to be about Christ and not about anything specific to any particular group of Christians. But as terms like "portion of Christ" or even "saints" are seldom to never used, I think I still narrow my thoughts to those few who meet with the LRC.

But the more I think about it, the less certain I am what a "portion of Christ" was meant to be even in the LRC. It almost seems to be code for something that is not quite the same as simply sharing Christian fellowship.

And I still hear "saints" bandied about like some unique status for those in the LRC.
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:20 PM   #53
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The document entitled The Divine Romance I had condensed from Brother Lee's first life-study message of the Bible, which he began in Romans, 1975. (I failed to mention this but planned to do so today.)

I added or changed the message only slightly and had the condensed version printed as a tract several years ago. It was a striking overview of the Bible that I had never heard and wanted to share with others.

Significant Note that helped lead to my demise in the church: I turned this and two other tracts in to the elders in Seattle for their review and fellowship and possible endorsement of them for use by the church. Six weeks later they did not get back to me. So I tried again and another six weeks went by. Then I contacted them and they finally got back to me and did feel good about the tracts and we put them out on the counter in the meeting hall area for the saints and new ones. But this lack of communication by them bothered me very much. We had no tracts in the meeting hall and I had labored to provide some for the gospel.

I can't remember the sequence of events, but I was to contact LSM and ask their permisssion for the use of their material that was at least interspersed in the text of my tracts. So, I wrote to LSM and asked for their permission. Not only 6 weeks went by, 6 months went by; then another six months; altogether two years went by before I confronted Andrew Yu in Seattle where he was giving a conference and let him know I was certainly not happy with him and LSM for ignoring my requests for fellowship. He looked down then admitted to me that they don't answer such requests, but just drop the letter into a box. He said that when he returned to Anaheim he would bring the matter up with the staff about getting back to those who write to them expecting a response. A month later I got a note of apology from LSM, no names signed.

This, of course, happened during the new way movement and they had their agenda, and it didn't include paying attention to me as a little member asking for fellowship. This was added to my observation and experience of the great lack of shepherding in my locality of those especially who were not so lined up with the new way program. I was very much bothered - because this was not the body of Christ, but something else in actuality. Then when I read John Ingalls' book I saw the problem and could and would begin to define it in commentaries.
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:33 PM   #54
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I find this to be a fascinating testimony, truly. Consider this, LSM is involved in the FTT because all saints need to be trained to preach the gospel, spread the word, shepherd, perfect, etc. Now here is a brother that is doing just that, and is doing this according to fellowship, and is merely asking for permission to use WL material for this purpose and they, as a matter of standard procedure, deep six the request. Now if this brother had just ignored protocol and gone ahead and printed these up word probably would have gotten back to the LSM and within days they would have been contacted, perhaps even by the legal team at LSM.

What is particularly interesting about this is that it is not an isolated event, this is in fact a common testimony concerning the LSM. So I find it fascinating that they expend so much energy talking about how burdened they are to train saints, yet they won't so much as lift a pinky finger to help a brother out that is motivated to function.

It almost makes you feel like the burden to train saints is not really that genuine.
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:47 PM   #55
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It almost makes you feel like the burden to train saints is not really that genuine.
Let's add the word "train" to that "doublespeak" thread, after the words "fellowship, perfect, gospel ..."
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:34 PM   #56
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I find this to be a fascinating testimony, truly. Consider this, LSM is involved in the FTT because all saints need to be trained to preach the gospel, spread the word, shepherd, perfect, etc...
That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:12 PM   #57
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That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.
Are you implying that the real burden is to push out LSM foot soldiers, not foot soldiers for God?
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:15 PM   #58
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Let's add the word "train" to that "doublespeak" thread, after the words "fellowship, perfect, gospel ..."
What would be really nice is if there was someone who instead of talking a big game about training, if instead he would just train giant killers without making a lot of noise. I would really like to see if I could find a man of God somewhere who was in the reality of passing on his faith and relationship with God without trying to turn it into an enterprise and a registered charity. If only we could find someone like that.
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Old 08-16-2011, 07:24 PM   #59
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Are you implying that the real burden is to push out LSM foot soldiers, not foot soldiers for God?
You were there. Please do tell us the truth about the FTT. Was the end result to spread God, or to spread the Living Stream Ministry brand?
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:05 AM   #60
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That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.
Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
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Old 08-17-2011, 03:51 AM   #61
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You were there. Please do tell us the truth about the FTT. Was the end result to spread God, or to spread the Living Stream Ministry brand?
Sure, I can share my experience, I don't think that it reflects poorly on the LSM though.

I came to the FTTT in the third semester and they closed the training to saints from the US shortly after that. However, I stayed and did not return. I did door knocking and baptizing people in their bathtub, and all the statistics. However, the church in Taipei was already complaining that despite the great numbers of those baptized they hadn't seen any fruit in the meetings, this became the most pressing issue during the 3rd semester and our focus during the 4th. They teamed me up with the brother from Austin who had had huge success with door knocking and was one of those leading the training when it came to the gospel. They also added a chinese sister who also had very good numbers statistically. She wasn't in the training, she was a sister in the local church in Taipei which gave us a very important contact with the church. They also added another sister from the US to our group who was in the training. I believe that this pairing was an attempt to find a breakthrough.

We were assigned a campus, it was a graduate school for engineering. Probably the most prized gospel field in Taipei. I spent the break between the 3rd and 4th semesters on campus establishing an English class / Bible study from my gospel contacts. Because of our schedules the four of us rarely worked together, but we did coordinate. I spent the afternoons on campus with my English class / Bible study and then at night I went to my job (I was supporting myself at the training from the time they asked the foreigners to leave). At night the Austin brother, the American sister and the Chinese sister door knocked and directed contacts to my Bible study. They also coordinated with some of the brothers on campus that were coming to that Bible study. Shortly after that the American sister worked out a small group meetings with the Taipei hall that was closest to this campus and so she would arrive at the end of my English class and take those who wanted to go to this home meeting.

Over the course of about 2-3 months we had 18 brothers added to the meetings of this hall. This was heralded as the breakthrough they were looking for and we were questioned as to our methods, etc. Based on this rather brief meeting new books came out designed to be used during home meetings with new ones.

To me, the books they came out with were completely useless and I didn't use them. So you could wonder, were they truly looking for a solution, or were they looking for a solution that involved selling books? I don't know, I think the process they followed was very useful and productive right up to the point of the books. I think because I was quite frank that they had missed the point and the books would not help my input was no longer sought. But that is pure conjecture.

I do know from experience being very close to the LSM leaders and serving in the LSM for years that they never, to my observation, showed any interest in anything that anyone brought to them. On the other hand they did occasionally have a need that they would ask others to help with (that happened to me several times). I could speculate that it was like the old western "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" kind of thing, but that would be speculation.
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:43 AM   #62
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Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
Actually, they are not as careless or inaccurate as someone like Ron may think. You may not like the flippant way that Harold says it, but a "full time" training that focuses almost exclusively on the ministry of a man who glossed over so much of the scripture and did the kind of illegitimate allegorizing being discussed in another thread on the rest of it is hard to understand as much more than a way to spread the LSM brand. And it is something used, after all those "truth camps" that the young attend, to complete the indoctrination into the LRC.

As Harold would probably say, "confuse and pickle them while they are young and they will never question it as they grow older." It seems that one of the Proverbs reads something like that, of course with a much purer intent and content.
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Old 08-17-2011, 05:10 AM   #63
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In my experience I did not get any training from the FTTT, what I got was the liberty to labor full time in the gospel with several coworkers. Though after about two months that "liberty" was based on my paying my own way.

I did try their approach to door knocking and I did baptize about 40 or so people that way, but I never felt it was valuable to me. The approach I took on the campus was, to my sense, much more sensible and effective. I was trained in the gospel by DC in Houston. Most of those conducting the training in Taipei, to my impression, did not know what they were talking about when it came to the gospel (the brother from Austin is an exception).

Also, the LSM materials were something that I quickly discarded. You have to realize, if you are going to preach the gospel 20 or 30 times a night, do you really want to repeat the same script 20 or 30 times? All I wanted was a pocket NT and preach improv, it was much more interesting.

Likewise the homestudy materials seemed to me to be a waste of money. The entire benefit of a home meeting is that you can fellowship with the new ones, they get to speak and you respond to their speaking. It seemed to me they were prepared by those who had never gotten their hands dirty. Consulting with us was, in my opinion, a pretense.
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:03 AM   #64
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I have noticed that some people like to have a plan and regimen and feel safe with that. They like to have the same experience over and over, hence the success of Mcdonalds. They really get anxiety if they are in a situation to try something new. I think they think within Oh I might not like that, I don't know. I would be really sad if my only food was Mcdonalds.

When I was a boy I had a lesson about God from an older man who I was helping him plant tree seedlings. He had gotten a few hundred tree seedlings and we were planting them in a big field on a hill. He was digging the holes and I was putting the seedlings in the hole and covering them up stepping on the dirt to complete the job. I was thinking the old man wasn't digging the holes in the right places as I thought they should be evenly spaced and in rows and even suggested that he should be doing that which he responded that man plants things in rows and that God does things in random and that he wanted the little seedlings to grow up and look like God had done the planting. That was about 40 yrs. ago and when i drive by that area I think it would look really silly now if all the trees were evenly spaced in rows as I was thinking they should be.

When I went to share with others with a method, people could see i was following a method but if I was'nt following a method then people could see something else and He gets the Glory not the method.
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:23 AM   #65
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I have noticed that some people like to have a plan and regimen and feel safe with that. They like to have the same experience over and over, hence the success of Mcdonalds. They really get anxiety if they are in a situation to try something new. I think they think within Oh I might not like that, I don't know. I would be really sad if my only food was Mcdonalds.

When I was a boy I had a lesson about God from an older man who I was helping him plant tree seedlings. He had gotten a few hundred tree seedlings and we were planting them in a big field on a hill. He was digging the holes and I was putting the seedlings in the hole and covering them up stepping on the dirt to complete the job. I was thinking the old man wasn't digging the holes in the right places as I thought they should be evenly spaced and in rows and even suggested that he should be doing that which he responded that man plants things in rows and that God does things in random and that he wanted the little seedlings to grow up and look like God had done the planting. That was about 40 yrs. ago and when i drive by that area I think it would look really silly now if all the trees were evenly spaced in rows as I was thinking they should be.

When I went to share with others with a method, people could see i was following a method but if I wasn't following a method then people could see something else and He gets the Glory not the method.
Not to take away from what the older man taught you, but simply doing something in a way that you think looks more like God did it is no better than doing in a regimented and orderly way. Either can be my attempt to be God and either can be my labor according to what I have been charged to do by God. Assuming that everything must be orderly, or that it must be random (or a messy kitchen) is to presume. Not saying that either is good or bad. It is not what is done, or even how it is done. It is from what source it is done no matter which way it is done.
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:30 AM   #66
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Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:35 AM   #67
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Not to take away from what the older man taught you, but simply doing something in a way that you think looks more like God did it is no better than doing in a regimented and orderly way. Either can be my attempt to be God and either can be my labor according to what I have been charged to do by God. Assuming that everything must be orderly, or that it must be random (or a messy kitchen) is to presume. Not saying that either is good or bad. It is not what is done, or even how it is done. It is from what source it is done no matter which way it is done.
You aren't still clinging to a teaching of Lee, are you, Mike?
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #68
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You aren't still clinging to a teaching of Lee, are you, Mike?
We probably all are and just don't know it.

But if you are referring to the "messy kitchen" I was actually stating that presuming that the "messy kitchen" is normal or even required is just as wrong as presuming that being orderly is right — or wrong. A way to refer to Lee's preference indirectly.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:30 AM   #69
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Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?
It was supposed to be a surprise!
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:53 AM   #70
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Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
So you are saying the FTT's are legit., and of God. And not for the purpose of promoting the LSM brand? Have you been thru the FTT? Are you telling us the bottom line truth about the FTT, that it is of God, and for the purposes of God, beyond the reach of Living Stream Ministry? Tell it like it is, bro Inddy., like you see it. Correct me with reason, that it's not for propaganda purposes in support of LSM brand churches.

And Ron Kangas doesn't need any reasons to condemn us. We're condemned already, for not being under him. But, in the end, who cares what Kangas condemns? It matters naught. Kangas is just one man among 6.6 billion others.

He's like all the rest of us -- and how's this for rubbing you the wrong way -- a pimple on the butt end of creation ... that thinks it's a beauty mark.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:01 AM   #71
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We probably all are and just don't know it.

But if you are referring to the "messy kitchen" I was actually stating that presuming that the "messy kitchen" is normal or even required is just as wrong as presuming that being orderly is right — or wrong. A way to refer to Lee's preference indirectly.
No, I'm not referring to the messy kitchen reference, I'm referring to the whole of your post. The whole idea that "It is from what source it is done no matter which way it is done". And I'm chuckling that you can't see that's what I meant...

(But hey, what do I know, maybe that didn't really come from Witness Lee, and it's all just jumbled up in my head at this point...)
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:13 AM   #72
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Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:40 AM   #73
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((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.
Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:47 AM   #74
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That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.
Having witnessed 30 plus years of rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland, with me (and many local saints) actually attending both LSM "trainings" and TC "labors," I have concluded that the underlying motives for these events are "mixed" and not entirely pure. One underlying motive which was common to both centers was the goal to bring leaders and aspiring young future talents under their subjection.

One proof of this was the recent expulsion of John Myer from the Cleveland circle for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's conferences and labors.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:18 AM   #75
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Having witnessed 30 plus years of rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland, with me (and many local saints) actually attending both LSM "trainings" and TC "labors," I have concluded that the underlying motives for these events are "mixed" and not entirely pure. One underlying motive which was common to both centers was the goal to bring leaders and aspiring young future talents under their subjection.

One proof of this was the recent expulsion of John Myer from the Cleveland circle for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's conferences and labors.
Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:29 AM   #76
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Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.
I think you are painting with too broad a brush. From my experience there is very little oversight, much less than you would imagine, to the trainers. In my case I was teaching about 40-50 trainees who were considered advanced English speakers, and I was given free reign, completely. Bad trainer, bad result, good trainer, good result.

Now, other aspects are that many of these brothers are quite new in the Lord and therefore easily influence. Also, i noticed that far fewer of them were 2nd generation than you would normally expect to find in a meeting hall, most it seemed had just recently been saved in college. Also, all trainees attend the same meetings, study the same books, and do the same thing. Of course, we also wore the same clothes, slept in barracks, etc.

I think based on the broadest definition of propaganda, then of course they are propaganda centers. Based on the narrow association of propaganda with totalitarian regimes and mind control, no I would not go that far. But who knows, 1987 was a long time ago, I have no idea to what this thing has morphed into. (I did visit the FTTA and was not impressed).

I would say the feel of the FTTT was similar to being in boot camp in the army boot camp is certainly a form of propaganda and mind control from an authoritarian regime.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:50 AM   #77
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:58 AM   #78
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(As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)
Please see under prayer suggestions:

http://churchinbellevue.org/wp-conte..._8-14-2011.pdf
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:59 PM   #79
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Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.
I hesitate to answer this question because I know it is merely my opinion and no doubt the LSM head honchos would deny and contradict it. But as long as everyone understands that I am merely giving my personal opinion because I was asked, and that I state clearly up front I was not a "decider" or even involved in fellowship leading up to key decisions, in the LSM I will give my opinion.

During the 3rd semester for the FTTT "abiding fruit" was a critical concern. So much so that Andrew Yu made it clear that the future of the training depended on it. Over the previous year the churches had made a big investment in the FTTT and hadn't seen any fruit. The church in Taipei was complaining that with all these great statistics, all these people being saved and baptized, they hadn't noticed any increase. This was such a high priority that we were put into various teams (I already have described my team a little), given the charge to find a solution, and given complete free reign (this may not have applied to all of the chinese trainees, but it did apply to most of the foreigners still there).

In December I went to the campus we were assigned and started working about 2 weeks before my coworkers joined me. The leading brother in our group should have been the brother from Austin, he had been here the first year, he had been the most successful with door knocking among all of the trainees, and he was training the saints in the gospel. But he saw the work I had built in two weeks and wanted to contribute. I told him that he was clearly the most talented at door knocking, if he would just continue with that and send his gospel contacts to the Bible study that would be the best help of all. So he did that and my Bible study was always standing room only. He should get a lot of credit for that. But, we know that door knocking alone did not result in abiding fruit and that is what he was doing. That was not the solution.

The American sister was located in the meeting hall nearest to this campus. She asked how she could help. This was an all male campus, there wasn't any need to send out gospel teams with a sister, and since I worked at nights it would be very inconvenient for the Austin brother to have her along (he would then need a third saint) so I told her the biggest need was a home meeting in the church. Now to her credit she arranged home meetings for every single day, Monday through Friday. Every day she showed up at the Bible study and took whoever wanted to go with her. She was great at getting different saints to open their homes so that there was always a home to go to. She felt like she didn't know what to fellowship with them, but I told her I didn't think that was an issue. Between the gospel and Bible study they had heard a lot, now it was time for them to speak. Also, the saints whose homes they were in would also fellowship. This sister very quickly began to appear like a mother hen with five or six new gospel contacts following her at all times. I think she was gifted and also grew in function over the two or three months. But, again, what she did was to ferry people that wanted to go to a home meeting to the home.

My point is this, LSM and the training had a very big problem, our team solved it in 3 months. Of the three of us I felt I knew as much as anyone as to how to solve this problem of abiding fruit. When they came to me they asked if there was anything they could do to help. I said no. That was it, no more fellowship about how we were having great success. They asked the sister and she said she would like some help leading the home meetings. That is where a whole series of books on leading home meetings came from.

In my opinion they were not genuinely interested in how to get abiding fruit, what they were interested in was how could the LSM publish more books. To their credit they didn't force anything down our throat. If I had said that "the secret to our success was the RcV footnotes" you can be sure I would have been asked to give that testimony a hundred times in various meetings, etc. But since my testimony was "I didn't use any LSM books" the topic was dropped like a lead balloon. As a scientist and as a Christian I find that to reflect poorly on the LSM.

However, I think your characterization of a propaganda center and branding the saints is way too superficial. You are forgetting they were operating on a shoestring. They didn't have the funds to exercise much control at all. Instead we were put into groups of about 6, told to read a chapter and then fellowship among ourselves.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:02 PM   #80
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Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.
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I think based on the broadest definition of propaganda, then of course they are propaganda centers. Based on the narrow association of propaganda with totalitarian regimes and mind control, no I would not go that far. But who knows, 1987 was a long time ago, I have no idea to what this thing has morphed into. (I did visit the FTTA and was not impressed).
Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If you want to remind us that you're different, I think we've already realized that by now.

In any event, thanks for noting the difference in time and place, I made it a point to say FTTA because I don't pretend to understand the Recovery culture on the planet of Taiwan.

I barely understand it here...
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:05 PM   #81
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Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If you want to remind us that you're different, I think we've already realized that by now.

In any event, thanks for noting the difference in time and place, I made it a point to say FTTA because I don't pretend to understand the Recovery culture on the planet of Taiwan.

I barely understand it here...
I think the point I was trying to make was that the impetus to act like, look like, and behave like everyone else comes from the trainees themselves and not from some conscience effort on the Trainers. People who are insecure want to blend in.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:15 PM   #82
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I think the point I was trying to make was that the impetus to act like, look like, and behave like everyone else comes from the trainees themselves and not from some conscience effort on the Trainers. People who are insecure want to blend in.
You're talking about within the microcosm of the training itself. What I'm talking about is the Recovery at large, the function of the training in the Recovery culture. Not necessarily the trainees, or the trainers, but the role the training has come to play in spreading the "one culture" throughout the movement.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:17 PM   #83
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However, I think your characterization of a propaganda center and branding the saints is way too superficial. You are forgetting they were operating on a shoestring. They didn't have the funds to exercise much control at all. Instead we were put into groups of about 6, told to read a chapter and then fellowship among ourselves.
Was this still the situation in Taipei when you left in '96?
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:32 PM   #84
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That sort of answered my question. Thanks ....
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I hesitate to answer this question because I know it is merely my opinion and no doubt the LSM head honchos would deny and contradict it. But as long as everyone understands that I am merely giving my personal opinion because I was asked, and that I state clearly up front I was not a "decider" or even involved in fellowship leading up to key decisions, in the LSM I will give my opinion.
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Old 08-17-2011, 05:43 PM   #85
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Default FTT a Mixture

The FTT is a mixture but a chief point is that it has produced Christ in many of the trainees and in the church life. RK is a mixture but has produced Christ; WL was a mixture but produced Christ; the LC is a mixture but has something of Christ; I am a mixture but there is something of Christ in me. And, there is also something of Christ in each of us on the forum. Therefore, categoric condemnations of Nee, Lee, the LC, RK, the FTT, etc. are without weight.

From Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery

Was the full-time training a mistake? It has been outwardly successful and very helpful to the churches. But has the FTT become another center, something Watchman Nee warned elders and co-workers about? The FTT was a center and promoted a center – a special leader and his ministry. The FTT also produced trained ones to go back to their localities to promote the center, a man and his ministry. In the quote below, Watchman Nee addresses the matter of the extra sphere of a training center.

"Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And, whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always stress what is ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that has a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.

Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes those who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God" (The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 184).


From In the Wake of the New Way, my first writing 11 years ago:


Certain features of the new way indeed were questionable, such as, the young people's full-time training, which was formed as a group of promising ones in the recovery. The establishing of such a group as a kind of centerpiece is what Watchman Nee had warned against, saying that according to church history to set up something in this way is the beginning of a move toward denominationalism.

The FTT, nonetheless, became the hope for the future of the churches as well as for their current vitality, and virtually all of the elders and churches supported and prized its existence. They were also benefited and blessed much as trainees began to enter back into the church life in various localities after their intensive two-year training. It posed very real problems, however, for a number of people, not the least of which was the disparity in interest and care for members outside the FTT.

With the enormous amount of time, energy, money, and manpower being invested into the full-time training, I asked a brother involved with the FTT about the care for those in Anaheim who were not in the full-time training. He confirmed that the overseeing care and interest was fully on the FTT, simply explaining that brother Lee’s burden was for the young people and for this training. This was in November 1995.

The emergence of the FTT was for the spreading of the gospel and the church life as well as for the producing of overcomers to become the spiritual Mt. Zion, the elevated part of Jerusalem in the midst of the church, manifesting the reality of the Body of Christ to usher in a new age. Its existence, however, is a constant reminder and clear example of the difference in care and interest in the members that has existed in the churches since the onset of the new way. Further, the FTT presents a formidable challenge to the New Testament where no precedent has been set for a special group of qualified ones within the church to receive such devoted care and wonderful selected attention.

There are very good alternatives to the FTT that would take away the focus on a few and put it back on the Body, while still preserving our young people, but making greater opportunity for all others to get intensified training and care. I say this with respect to those young people who have been trained in the FTT and who are now good dispensers of Christ and of the ministry in different places, some even going abroad in sacrifice of the human comforts of their soul for the gospel.
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:28 PM   #86
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The FTT is a mixture but the chief point is that it has produced Christ in many of the trainees and in the church life. RK is a mixture but has produced Christ; WL was a mixture but produced Christ; the LC is a mixture but has something of Christ; I am a mixture but there is something of Christ in me. And, there is also something of Christ in each of us on the forum. Categoric condemnations of Nee, Lee, the LC, RK, etc. are mixed with untruth.

From Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery

Was the full-time training a mistake? It has been outwardly successful and very helpful to the churches. But has the FTT become another center, something Watchman Nee warned elders and co-workers about? The FTT was a center and promoted a center – a special leader and his ministry. The FTT also produced trained ones to go back to their localities to promote the center, a man and his ministry.
Steve, I hear what you are saying about the FTT, but, since I came from Ohio, I have a different perspective. Perhaps I have become cynical in my old age, (but I'm still younger than you) but for some time I have listened to LSM promotions the same way I listen to politicians. Forget about what they say, and pay attention to what they do. Look at their record. What have they done? Talk is cheap. Let's talk about actual accomplishments.

We saw many young people damaged by LSM. Their faith was shattered. Nearly none received solid spiritual help. Many returned and just could not fit into the local church life, so the local church life was blamed. This church was blamed and that church was blamed, but who placed the blame where it belonged?!? Many of the young people became fertile soil for LSM program managers to sow suspicions about TC, their elders, and the region as a whole. Many young people and full-timers never returned home, convinced that greener grass lies elsewhere.

Your quotes from WN are significant. With WL and his ministry as the "center," it's no wonder that the FTTx was spoiled. What value has any Christian training that does not place Christ and His word as the center? Without the living Christ, who or what places limits on the sectarian attitudes promoted by LSM trainers? What will stop the backbiting? What will limit the trainers from "playing god" with the lives of young ones? What happens when their program conflicts with the conscience of the trainees?

All these questions are not hypothetical. They have really happened. I witnessed some of them. I heard stories about others. Oh sure, LSM has their attractive, spiritual-sounding rhetoric to entice the young, but should we not look at the fruit? Let's do some research. Why won't LSM let us examine the statistics on all their trainees? How many are still positive? Home many even still love the Lord? How many are still active in the churches?
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:04 PM   #87
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The FTT is a mixture but a chief point is that it has produced Christ in many of the trainees and in the church life. RK is a mixture but has produced Christ; WL was a mixture but produced Christ; the LC is a mixture but has something of Christ; I am a mixture but there is something of Christ in me. And, there is also something of Christ in each of us on the forum.
The lotus grows out of waste. And Christ is being produced around the world, in mostly fallen Christ-grabbing centers. So I guess it's to be expected from Lee's Christ-grabbing center too.

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Therefore, categoric condemnations of Nee, Lee, the LC, RK, the FTT, etc. are without weight.
Needs no weight. I don't and can't save the local churches, and if I could it would turn out wrong, cuz it would be something other than Christ centered.

The critical difference between you and I, Indy, is that you believe Lee's Living Stream Ministry church can be fixed, and I don't. I think it's already going, and has been going, the same way as Luther, Calvin, Methodists, Brethren, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, et al.

They are just another ordinary Christian sect, with their own peculiar bent. And will continue to be further demarcated & denominational as time goes on ; just another weird Christian group we have to tolerate ... like JWs knocking on your door.

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Was the full-time training a mistake? ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by From Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery

"Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And, whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one.
So in short, the FTTTs are indeed a propaganda center because they are a center other than Christ.

Thanks Steve....
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Old 08-18-2011, 12:46 AM   #88
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Steve, I hear what you are saying about the FTT, but, since I came from Ohio, I have a different perspective. Perhaps I have become cynical in my old age, (but I'm still younger than you) but for some time I have listened to LSM promotions the same way I listen to politicians. Forget about what they say, and pay attention to what they do. Look at their record. What have they done? Talk is cheap. Let's talk about actual accomplishments...
I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:49 AM   #89
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All these questions are not hypothetical. They have really happened. I witnessed some of them. I heard stories about others. Oh sure, LSM has their attractive, spiritual-sounding rhetoric to entice the young, but should we not look at the fruit? Let's do some research. Why won't LSM let us examine the statistics on all their trainees? How many are still positive? Home many even still love the Lord? How many are still active in the churches?
I am very happy for my experience in the FTTT. I think it was a wonderful experience. I would think every church could and should know who went to the FTTx from their locale and what the outcome was. I think that two or three localities could share these results with each other and see if they warranted further study.

On the other hand I don't believe the FTTx ever lived up to the hype, nor do I think it really benefitted the church that much. And, I definitely feel that those running the FTTx were focused more on how to keep the FTTx going than they were on Christ.
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:12 AM   #90
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Brother ZNP, you entered the FTTT during its formative years and seemed to escape the type of experiences which were normal for most of the other attendants. Not to say that everything at the FTTx was negative, but there is so much hype and indoctrination which accompanies the program, and so little fruit.

Just as John Myer was expelled for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's regional events, one of the major reasons TC was quarantined was that saints in the GLA rarely attended LSM's "feasts" or FTTx.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:08 AM   #91
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I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.
This would seem to confirm my understanding that ministering the local church culture and the Recovery program is basically the same damn thing as "ministering Christ".

P.S. Does this guy's elder daddy "minister Christ" to others, while his son bounces around outside the ark? I bet he does. I bet it's very "positive", too.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:10 AM   #92
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I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.
But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:35 AM   #93
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Some of the more interesting fruit of the tree of life, as captured on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CdB8y3GHvs
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:50 AM   #94
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But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.
Brother Awareness, sometimes I read your posts and get the impression that you do not have a favorable opinion of the LRC.
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:52 AM   #95
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But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.
But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.
I agree with Harold, Steve.

If I invite you over for dinner and feed you 80% delicious food and 20% poison are you going to praise me for my culinary skills? Or are you going to warn people to not be fooled by the good stuff I serve?

Stuff like "the Recovery" and "the minister of the age" and the "unique move of God" are not just a little off, they are poison. They even kind of sound good to the ignorant. A dog will lap up antifreeze because it tastes good to him. But in the end he'll be either dead or disabled, like many who fell into the LRC, perhaps to never achieve the potential God had for them.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:05 AM   #96
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I agree with Harold, Steve.

If I invite you over for dinner and feed you 80% delicious food and 20% poison are you going to praise me for my culinary skills? Or are you going to warn people to not be fooled by the good stuff I serve?

Stuff like "the Recovery" and "the minister of the age" and the "unique move of God" are not just a little off, they are poison. They even kind of sound good to the ignorant. A dog will lap up antifreeze because it tastes good to him. But in the end he'll be either dead or disabled, like many who fell into the LRC, perhaps to never achieve the potential God had for them.
20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:15 AM   #97
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20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.
Yes, and at "acceptable quantities", can you still smell them when you're done eating?
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:27 AM   #98
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20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.
Yes, but expressed in parts per billion (ppb). Quantities far below what would be required to do damage to the human body.

And someone will point out that there are some toxins that even a very small amount in terms of ppb will quickly kill you. And it is true, although not that common. Most of the common toxins require significant quantities and there are lower quantities which, though not good for you, will not significantly harm you within a normal lifetime.

As for the percentage of poison in the LRC, it is difficult to say. But based on the way so many of them talk about things, I would suggest that the actual amount is irrelevant as it is generally well above the toxic level.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:53 AM   #99
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P.S. Does this guy's elder daddy "minister Christ" to others, while his son bounces around outside the ark? I bet he does. I bet it's very "positive", too.
Yes he does. Several times a year young people who meet with the local churches in the Philippines benefit from the brother's speaking and encouragement. As for his son or to be technical his step-son, I can speculate why their relationship is dysfunctional, but they know and the Lord knows the real situation.
While he's outside the ark, it's by choice. There are other Christian assemblies to be ministered by. If this brother's step-son wanted to go to the nearby local church and as I told the step-son, if he went to a LD meeting, there would be receiving with open arms. Of course lies the question, would the family's attitude toward him change from cutting him off to speaking with him?
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:39 PM   #100
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Default Re: Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

Several recent developments over the last several months brought to mind, what is the standard of righteousness in the recovery?
In several cases there were individuals falsely accused and unjustly convicted of crimes they did not commit. I'm talking about the West Memphis Trio who served 18 years and more recently Amanda Knox who served 4 years.
Thankfully there is a justice system that will examine the facts and conclude there was no evidence warranting their conviction.
Can we say the same of the recovery? No, we cannot. All that is needed is one person's word and that's sufficient. There is no need to know anything. Knowing equates to knowledge and knowledge brings death.
Rather the LSM leadership is comparable to the prosecuter who even when there no evidence will still claim they did it. Even in this episode http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv/48-H...d=FCST_hero_tv where a prosecuter will omit evidence proving innocence just bring about a guilty verdict.
It's all about pride. How could I be wrong? It's in the flesh. No one wants to admit when they've been wrong. Or when their shortcomings is trusting too much in their peers.
I may be beating a dead horse over quarantines of brothers. My point is not about these brothers, but the practice of quarantines. If it happened to these brothers, it can happen to you.
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:40 AM   #101
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I may be beating a dead horse over quarantines of brothers. My point is not about these brothers, but the practice of quarantines. If it happened to these brothers, it can happen to you.
Terry, this is why the Lord told us to eventually walk away and consider the offending brother as of no account. Eventually we can't let their offenses mess with our lives.

I think some of us want vindication. That's understandable, but the Lord didn't promise us that in this life. However he did say we can walk away, consider the offenders as of no account, and get on with our lives.

I understand wanting to make the world clearer about the goings-on at LSM and the LRC. I'm part of that. But whether LSM ever says "uncle" is up in the air, and no one should put his or her life on hold until they do. For freedom Christ has set us free.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:18 AM   #102
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Just press on.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:52 AM   #103
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exceptional site post. I am going to bookmark localchurchdiscussions.com and check out a lot more often. I really like the website template
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