Probably should have made this earlier

[clever sister]

I've already been posting around the forum about some of my experiences in LC, but I guess I should post my testimony here.

I was born into the LC. While not all of my extended family is in the LC, a significant number are, enough to consider myself a 3rd generation LC member.

I was saved at about the age 10. An older sister in my locality had taken me under her wing. I looked up to her like I would a grandmother. She is one of the saints in the LC that I look to as having a genuine care for me and who shepherd me from genuine leading from the Lord. Most of our conversations were not even the 'spiritual', she would tell me about her childhood. But she preached a simple gospel to me and I was saved at that time.

A year later I was baptised. I distinctly remember telling my mother that I wanted to be baptised at an upcoming camp aimed at those around 11-13 years old, however I was surprised and thought it was a cool coincidence that the camp was on baptism. Now, of course, I know that it was deliberate, that the LC teaches to try and get YP baptised at 11/12 years old whether they are led to by the Lord or not.

I continued following the path that LC wanted, attending the high-school meetings, attended SSOT most years etc. However, while outwardly it would appear to LC I was following the path they wanted, inwardly I was starting to undergo a battle. I won't go into details, but inwardly there was a struggle between who I am as a person and who I felt I had to be to be a 'good' Christian. At the time, due to the teachings in LC, I felt that the source of this was Satan and that I could 'pray it away'. And I did pray desperately. But all I ever did was suppress that side of me, in a way which I think is connected to the depression which started as a teenager and which I still struggle with at times as an adult.

I also distinctly remember feeling like I was 'two persons'. The person I was when at school, around my friends and teachers, and the person I was in the church life. It bothered me immensely.

It continued when I started college and got involved with the Christians on Campus work (for more info on this see my Deceptions on Campus thread), but also made many new friends in my classes. In many ways I tried to resolve this through focusing on my studies, something the saints did allow which was also part of my natural person, and I did very well at university.

When I graduated one of my professors emailed me, offering for me to stay and do a thesis with him, but in my mind what the Lord wanted me to do was go to the FTTH. I attended for one semester, but left as a broken person.
When I went home my mother was very concerned for my health and took me to see the doctor. It was at this point that I was officially diagnosed with depression, and it is the worst period of depression I have ever had. However, I felt ashamed about it, and only confided in my mother and one close sister of my diagnosis.

Many saints asked me when I would return to the FTT, but I knew I could not go back. At this point I didn't leave the LC, but I know this is when I started to have doubts.

I went got a job in which I was successful, but continued my church life as best I could. It was at this point that I realised that because I had left the LC ordained path, the LC didn't really know what to do with me anymore. I was encouraged to help with the local Christians on Campus work, but felt out of place and suspected they only valued me for my 'white face'.

Instead I began volunteering in the children's work, focusing on the creche age. This is something I genuinely enjoyed, the focus was on caring for the children while their parent's attended the meeting. I still genuinely have a heart for those children, all are school age now.

In my personal life I was beginning to see I could not reconcile who I was as a person with what LC taught. I began to see flaws in both the teaching and practise. Eventually I left, initially rejecting everything and no longer considering myself a Christian.

I kept thinking of John 10:28
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

I felt like, because I had left the LC, that meant I was outside of God's hand, then was God even real, because he promised to not let anyone be snatched out of his hand.

It's interesting though, since getting in touch with others who have left the LC I feel like my faith is being restored. I realise that the LC was not where God wanted me, but I still have issues, I don't know which teachings the LC taught are true and which I need to reject, and I still have some fundamental doubts about the bible.

And I feel like maybe the Lord let me have a time of not calling myself Christian so I could somewhat heal my personality, to recover who I am. I've made mistakes in this time, in rejecting what LC taught I sometimes went too far the other way, but I felt it in my person when that happened, feeling not guilty that I had broken a rule, but feeling that I had somehow betrayed myself. There was a process I had to go through to learn to trust that feeling.

But now I finally feel at peace with who I am as a person and how I am living my life. I think the Lord is trying to heal my spirituality, which might be a process to take many more years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I kept thinking of John 10:28
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

I felt like, because I had left the LC, that meant I was outside of God's hand, then was God even real, because he promised to not let anyone be snatched out of his hand.

It's interesting though, since getting in touch with others who have left the LC I feel like my faith is being restored. I realise that the LC was not where God wanted me, but I still have issues, I don't know which teachings the LC taught are true and which I need to reject, and I still have some fundamental doubts about the bible.

And I feel like maybe the Lord let me have a time of not calling myself Christian so I could somewhat heal my personality, to recover who I am. I've made mistakes in this time, in rejecting what LC taught I sometimes went too far the other way, but I felt it in my person when that happened, feeling not guilty that I had broken a rule, but feeling that I had somehow betrayed myself. There was a process I had to go through to learn to trust that feeling.

But now I finally feel at peace with who I am as a person and how I am living my life. I think the Lord is trying to heal my spirituality, which might be a process to take many more years.

Thanks for sharing your story. Let me tell you and every former member of the LC, God is not mad at you, He is mad about you! He uniquely made you and loves you dearly.

What a tragedy that some small segment of the body of Christ would forfeit their rightful role in preaching the gospel and caring for God's people, then elevate themselves as something unique and exclusive becoming puffed up with pride, and then degrade into some aberrant sect holding its people in fear.

I contribute on this forum solely because people got hurt in the LC. Many of them leave the faith when they leave the LC, and that is truly tragic. It has been rightly said that our most valuable treasure on earth is our faith, and that is exactly what God's enemy has come to steal and kill and destroy.

Sister, you will never be outside of our Shepherd's hand! I encourage you to read John 10 again, and believe every word.

[Truthseeker]

In the depth of your heart, you feel that it is against the Lord like the case of baptism. So do I. I feel something weird in my depth when some leading one pushed me to join FTT with human made regulations I have to submit. Sister, you are sent from the Lord Himself to become the sign and wonder which guarantee what I feel in my depth. I am thankful for the Lord to send you here Amen hallelujah, praise and glory to our God Jesus Christ.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by clever sister

In my personal life I was beginning to see I could not reconcile who I was as a person with what LC taught. I began to see flaws in both the teaching and practise. Eventually I left, initially rejecting everything and no longer considering myself a Christian.

I kept thinking of John 10:28
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

I felt like, because I had left the LC, that meant I was outside of God's hand, then was God even real, because he promised to not let anyone be snatched out of his hand.

It's interesting though, since getting in touch with others who have left the LC I feel like my faith is being restored. I realise that the LC was not where God wanted me, but I still have issues, I don't know which teachings the LC taught are true and which I need to reject, and I still have some fundamental doubts about the bible.

Decades ago I went thru a similar thing.

At first, after getting the boot, I felt I was no longer in God's eternal purpose. So I let go of it all. I had to, for the sake of my sanity.

But God came back around ; He coming to me, not me doing the coming.

Still, like you, I still have doubts about the Bible.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by awareness

Decades ago I went thru a similar thing.

At first, after getting the boot, I felt I was no longer in God's eternal purpose. So I let go of it all. I had to, for the sake of my sanity.

But God came back around ; He coming to me, not me doing the coming.

Still, like you, I still have doubts about the Bible.

Yes, definitely feel that way. I have just been getting on with my own life, but God's letting me know he still wants to be a part of it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Yes, definitely feel that way. I have just been getting on with my own life, but God's letting me know he still wants to be a part of it.

I left the LC abruptly after an immersive experience there. Years in the "church life" of daily meetings and corporate living. Traveling, blending, conferences and trainings . . one day it all ended. The Holy Spirit thrust me back into the wilderness.

After a few years I gave up on religion entirely. Didn't do it consciously, maybe a few times I just said disgustedly that I was agnostic, but really I had seen the light, I was just tired of playing religion.

Eventually I began to be drawn back to the light but this time it was not on any one else's terms but mine, which happened to be that small still voice that was uniquely "me". Only that voice can match the voice of the Shepherd. Only that voice.

The LC does nothing but try to still that voice and give you the voice of the Hive. But it is not the building of God, but a counterfeit.

The writer of Hebrews said, "we see Jesus" (2:9). We means you and me, not just Peter and Paul. See means ascertain for ourselves. Not just hear dogma, or recite creeds. We see Jesus and hear his voice. (John 10:27)

And the Jesus we see is the very Jesus prophesied by those who came before (Romans 1:2), which prophets Lee panned as being "low" and "fallen" and "natural" because he couldn't reconcile them with his "high peak theology". If a Bible expositor rejects the Bible, and the Jesus revealed therein, we can freely reject that expositor.

Anyway that is me writing here. My opinion. Yes, I have one.

If we don't have a soul-life, how can we lose it? The LC programme denies the soul by repression, submerging it under the Collective Hive Mind which is just the vehicle for the Grand Pooh-Bah and his (or her) unrestrained soul-life.

I ramble on, forgive me. Welcome to the forum and I hope your voice is heard.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Yes, definitely feel that way. I have just been getting on with my own life, but God's letting me know he still wants to be a part of it.

It took awhile, but it's so much better when God does the coming. Cuz then it's not me straining to do it. In the LC I got so tired of straining my guts out all the time. I certainly couldn't relate to, "my yoke is light." But I can now.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I also distinctly remember feeling like I was 'two persons'. The person I was when at school, around my friends and teachers, and the person I was in the church life. It bothered me immensely.

Clever sister, that has been my experience and maybe others too. For those reading on you need to understand being raised in the local churches you learn
Soul is bad
Individuality is bad
Opinions are bad
Releasing your human spirit is good.
If one is an extrovert (and I am not) it is second nature to be expressive verbally. Those such as I who are listeners first and speakers second, in some ways end up pretending to be someone that you're not.
In regard to our soul and individuality, that's considered "the old man". In order to conform to the groupthink, one ends up creating a mask for the meeting life. Around family and friends, you're just as you are. Without any peer pressures and without any expectations.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Yes, definitely feel that way. I have just been getting on with my own life, but God's letting me know he still wants to be a part of it.

Your life is not your own (1 Cor 6:20)

You died, and your life and God's life are one (Col 3:3-4)

[HERn]

WARNING: Brother Evangelical is twisting scripture!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A. Your life is not your own (1 Cor 6:20)

B. You died, and your life and God's life are one (Col 3:3-4)

Here's what the God-inspired word says in 1 Cor 6:20 (Amplified Version): You were bought with a price (purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own). So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body. Although we were purchased and made God's own, we still maintain ownership of our body (soul and spirit) through which we should bring glory to God. Brother E errs in only seeing half of God's revelation here.

Here's what the God-inspired word says in Col 3:3-4 (Amplified Version): For (as far as this world is concerned) you have died and your (new, real) life is hidden with God in Christ. When Christ who is our life, appears, then you will also appear with Him in (the splendor of His) glory. Although we have died with Christ, this scripture does not teach that your life and God's life are one. Here Brother E adds to the biblical revelation in this verse. Perhaps there are better verses that clearly teach that your life and God's life are one?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by HERn

WARNING: Brother Evangelical is twisting scripture!



Here's what the God-inspired word says in 1 Cor 6:20 (Amplified Version): You were bought with a price (purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own). So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body. Although we were purchased and made God's own, we still maintain ownership of our body (soul and spirit) through which we should bring glory to God. Brother E errs in only seeing half of God's revelation here.

Amazing, I was not expecting disagreement on such basic concept - HERn argues with basic scripture and believes that God only owns part of us. Part ownership, part blood-sacrifice, part salvation too ?? Did it take you long to find an (Amplified, lol) bible verse that agrees with your views?

CH Spurgeon ("Bought with a Price"):

I desire upon this theme, which is a very simple and every-day one, but which is nevertheless of the weightiest consideration, to remind you, dearly beloved, who profess to be followers of Christ, that this matter of your being "bought with a price" is an indisputable fact to every Christian. To every person here present it either is a fact or not. I scarcely need to ask whether any of you are prepared to abjure your redemption; and yet, professor of the faith of Christ, I shall put it to you now: Are you willing to have the negative put upon this? will you deny that you were "bought with a price?" Will you now confess that you were not redeemed on Calvary? You dare not, I am sure. You would sooner die than abjure your belief of it. Well, then, as certain as is your redemption, so certain is it that you "are not your own," but belong to God, and should glorify him. It is inevitable that if you be "bought with a price," you have ceased to be your own property, and belong to him who bought you.

Originally Posted by HERn

[COLOR=red]
Here's what the God-inspired word says in Col 3:3-4 (Amplified Version): For (as far as this world is concerned) you have died and your (new, real) life is hidden with God in Christ. When Christ who is our life, appears, then you will also appear with Him in (the splendor of His) glory. Although we have died with Christ, this scripture does not teach that your life and God's life are one. Here Brother E adds to the biblical revelation in this verse. Perhaps there are better verses that clearly teach that your life and God's life are one?

We die , Christ lives. If we have died, how can we say our life and God's life are so separate? Our life, is dead. This should be obvious, and HERn needs to learn the meaning of death and life, baptism, regeneration, and all the basic concepts.

For those who cannot comprehend the concept of death and life, here are some verses showing the unity in a clearer way:

Romans 6:5-7 ..we have become one with Christ in His death.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him

[Evangelical]

Evangelical said:

Your life is not your own (1 Cor 6:20)

HERn said:

WARNING: Brother Evangelical is twisting scripture!

John Piper in his book "DON’T WASTE YOUR LIFE" says:

You now belong doubly to God: He made you, and he bought you. That means your life is not your own. It is God’s.

WARNING: HERn thinks John Piper and others who believe the plain words of the Bible, are twisting Scripture.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your life is not your own (1 Cor 6:20)

You died, and your life and God's life are one (Col 3:3-4)

I've spent too many years of my life trying to live it the way I thought God wanted me to live it, only to end up a broken shell of a person, sick, miserable, unable to get out of bed.

Now I live a life where I can experience joy and show joy to others.

I've given up trying to do what I think God wants me to do. I am done with following the will of man, disguised as the will of God.

I don't know what my future holds, but I know that right now I have peace in my life.

2 Thessalonians 3:16
“Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace always in every way. The Lord be with you all.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I've given up trying to do what I think God wants me to do. I am done with following the will of man, disguised as the will of God.

I don't know what my future holds, but I know that right now I have peace in my life.

2 Thessalonians 3:16
“Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace always in every way. The Lord be with you all.”

So well said!

"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you, not as the world gives do I give. Let not your heart be troubled or fearful." (John 14.27)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I've given up trying to do what I think God wants me to do. I am done with following the will of man, disguised as the will of God.

"Don't be stupid. Instead, find out what the Lord wants you to do." (CEV, Eph 5:17).

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Don't be stupid. Instead, find out what the Lord wants you to do." (CEV, Eph 5:17).

I could never have found out God's will for me had I remained in the LC. All I got there was Witness Lee's will. Fallen human concepts disguised as divine fiat.

You know what they said in the meetings? "Don't think - it will only make you confused".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I could never have found out God's will for me had I remained in the LC. All I got there was Witness Lee's will. Fallen human concepts disguised as divine fiat.

You know what they said in the meetings? "Don't think - it will only make you confused".

They were right. Thinking does confuse people.

Talk about stupid conclusions! Kind of like, "don't eat, you might get sick."

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by clever sister

It's interesting though, since getting in touch with others who have left the LC I feel like my faith is being restored. I realise that the LC was not where God wanted me, but I still have issues, I don't know which teachings the LC taught are true and which I need to reject, and I still have some fundamental doubts about the bible.

Would you be able to explain a little bit what you mean by having fundamental doubts about the Bible? I think I am in a similar position but am curious what it means to other people.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Would you be able to explain a little bit what you mean by having fundamental doubts about the Bible? I think I am in a similar position but am curious what it means to other people.

My own take is this: did God raise Jesus from the dead. If you answer yes, then you are a believer. If you answer no, then you are not. Why do people argue over non-essentials? Or give up? Because they get distracted from the core issue.

Either Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, or not. Take your pick. The entire NT was based on this one issue. Everyone has to make a decision. If you ignore the question, or avoid it, or change the subject, that is your decision.

It's not called faith for nothing.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Would you be able to explain a little bit what you mean by having fundamental doubts about the Bible? I think I am in a similar position but am curious what it means to other people.

So you're a fundamentalist too?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So you're a fundamentalist too?

I'm not an anything-ist; I'm just one person who was asking another person a question for clarification.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm not an anything-ist; I'm just one person who was asking another person a question for clarification.

Trapped,

I was kinda butting in, in my response. You weren't asking me for clarification. But I like sharing where I am in my journey, and wanted to do so here.

I left the LC about 20 years ago. Effectively became agnostic, not consciously just tired of religion. Eventually started becoming interested again, not necessarily because life was empty or meaningless but because I'm just drawn to faith, I guess.

Anyway, I recently discovered that the big topic of the NT was the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The rest of it was merely appendages. And on a related note, when considering the mostly horrible history of Christianity, I became aware that it was because people got distracted from the basics. They began to create abstract conceptual overlays and put them on the scriptures, and would begin to distort the narrative. Luther, for example, didn't like James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation because he couldn't find the "Christ" that he found in Romans (and Paul's other epistles) and the gospels. So Luther created a "canon within the canon".

Lee of course did this in spades. We got book after book on abstract overlays. But the only time Jesus was recorded mentioned "oikonomia" it wasn't even translated 'economy' but 'stewardship', i.e. responsibility (Luke 16:2). But with Witness Lee we got book after book on the 'economy of God'.

But pretty much everyone did this: Nee, Darby, Luther, Penn-Lewis, and so forth. People read the Bible, get some idea or inspiration, and off they go.

But what did Peter talk about on Pentecost Day? The Processed Triune God? One Church Per City? One Minister (Spiritual Giant) Per Age? The Pre-Tribulation Rapture? No, Peter talked about the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. At the end of Paul's ministry, as he was getting carted off to jail, he shouted, "It is because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead I stand here!" (Acts 23:6).

Paul said, "If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 That is the only truly fundamental thing about the Bible, that I can see. The rest either points to that, or isn't germane. If someone distracts you with the "other stuff" they are not serving God. Jesus was raised. God furnished "irrefutable proof" of that (Acts 1:3).

That is fundamental. The rest is not. Well, love one another. . . . but that should go without saying (but we probably should say it anyway).

[Trapped]

Aron,

Thanks for your response and I wasn't bothered that you "butted in". Language is a thing used and colored by each person's perception and experience and I just wondered what clever sister meant when she said "fundamental". There is the meaning you described concerning the crux of the whole thing ..... I agree, if a person doesn't believe Jesus was raised from the dead, the rest is moot. There is no salvation, there is no rest of the NT, there is no host of other things.

But sometimes people use a word, e.g. "fundamental", to mean something a little different, say, "deep-seated", or "specific" or something close, and I'm just curious to know what clever sister meant.

For my part as I came to grips with the fact that I have problems with the way the LC that I grew up in as a church kid does a lot of things, I would occasionally butt up against the fact that some of the things I had a problem with were actually backed up by the Bible and I had to contend with it (I say "had to"....really I still am). I can't imagine I'm the only one that experienced that so was interested to know what specifically she meant.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Trapped

But sometimes people use a word, e.g. "fundamental", to mean something a little different, say, "deep-seated", or "specific" or something close, and I'm just curious to know what clever sister meant.

For my part as I came to grips with the fact that I have problems with the way the LC that I grew up in as a church kid does a lot of things, I would occasionally butt up against the fact that some of the things I had a problem with were actually backed up by the Bible and I had to contend with it (I say "had to"....really I still am). I can't imagine I'm the only one that experienced that so was interested to know what specifically she meant.

When I said "fundamental" I didn't mean anything to do with Christian fundamentalism.

I guess I meant more that I have some underlying doubts about the Bible. What does it mean for the Bible to be the word of the God. How much can we take the words at face value and how much do we need to consider historical and cultural context.

[Trapped]

clever sister, that's very helpful, thanks. I totally understand what you mean.