Book by Former LC Elder Herman Massey

[Cal]

I knew Herman from our days in Austin, Texas together. He was an elder. He wife is Kathleen. He wrote book a few years ago. I just stumbled onto it on Amazon.com. I know it is him because in the Acknowledgements he mentions Kathleen and his (twin) brother Thurman.

Grace is for You--Flowing Like a River

I downloaded the sample on my Kindle and will buy the whole book. It looks pretty good. Glad to see Herman is still following the Lord with such singleness, and that he and Kathleen are doing well. You can still see the LC influence in his words, but they have a fresher and different feel as well.

"Grace is about getting access to the Father to share the bounty of his resources! Jesus is the way to the availability of this grace."

[Evangelical]

Sounds like the "sugar daddy" version of grace.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sounds like the "sugar daddy" version of grace.

Why the bitterness?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

Why the bitterness?

I'm not bitter, just this seems to be the definition of grace that is about God's provision. There are a few definitions of what grace is. The Bible does not define grace in such a way. The definition of grace I agree with the most is that grace is the opposite of karma. Grace is not about getting access to anything. It is about experiencing something we don't deserve. Karma is the opposite - experiencing something we deserve.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm not bitter, just this seems to be the definition of grace that is about God's provision. There are a few definitions of what grace is. The Bible does not define grace in such a way. The definition of grace I agree with the most is that grace is the opposite of karma. Grace is not about getting access to anything. It is about experiencing something we don't deserve. Karma is the opposite - experiencing something we deserve.

If your Witness Lee had given us that definition, then you would be defending how marvelous it is, and how it exactly corresponds with God's Economy.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm not bitter, just this seems to be the definition of grace that is about God's provision. There are a few definitions of what grace is. The Bible does not define grace in such a way. The definition of grace I agree with the most is that grace is the opposite of karma. Grace is not about getting access to anything. It is about experiencing something we don't deserve. Karma is the opposite - experiencing something we deserve.

This explains why you are such an ungracious person. You have no clue what grace is, nor how desperately you need it.

It's stunning. You are a walking, talking billboard for NOT joining the LCM. I'm actually surprised that other LCMers are not rebuking you in public for the nonsense you spread in their name.

I started this thread. I'd appreciate it if you'd keep at least this one clear of your sick hatefulness. Thank you.

[Koinonia]

Thank you for sharing this, Igzy.

[Unsure]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm not bitter.

Well, when you make your initial statement with such a belligerent statement (granted, it probably wasn't all that belligerent, but I read it in my head as such at first glance) and offer no further justification or exposition, people will think you are. It would have been better if your second post was part of your first post.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

This explains why you are such an ungracious person. You have no clue what grace is, nor how desperately you need it.

It's stunning. You are a walking, talking billboard for NOT joining the LCM. I'm actually surprised that other LCMers are not rebuking you in public for the nonsense you spread in their name.

I started this thread. I'd appreciate it if you'd keep at least this one clear of your sick hatefulness. Thank you.

I think your post is reason enough for LCM members not to join. No not really, I don't think people are or are not joining on the basis of one person's opinion. You are basically using God's grace to hammer people with it. You failed grace 101 which is treating others better than they deserve. You have not treated me better than I deserve, so you need more grace. I think you all need to read this book.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Unsure

Well, when you make your initial statement with such a belligerent statement (granted, it probably wasn't all that belligerent, but I read it in my head as such at first glance) and offer no further justification or exposition, people will think you are. It would have been better if your second post was part of your first post.

The definition of grace is clearly not the right one - which is God's unmerited favor. Ask any evangelical.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm not bitter, just this seems to be the definition of grace that is about God's provision. There are a few definitions of what grace is. The Bible does not define grace in such a way. The definition of grace I agree with the most is that grace is the opposite of karma. Grace is not about getting access to anything. It is about experiencing something we don't deserve. Karma is the opposite - experiencing something we deserve.

Almost seems as if your definition is like that of most Christians. While overly simplistic, "unmerited favor" is exactly what you just described.

As a humorous aside, the simplistic definitions of grace and mercy are often stated as:

Grace . . . getting what you don't deserve.

Mercy . . . not getting what you do deserve.

So when people pray for "travel mercies," are they suggesting that they deserve to get into problems on the road? Have a wreck? Lose a radiator hose in the Mojave?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unsure

Well, when you make your initial statement with such a belligerent statement (granted, it probably wasn't all that belligerent, but I read it in my head as such at first glance) and offer no further justification or exposition, people will think you are. It would have been better if your second post was part of your first post.

I looked back at the first post I don't see belligerence anywhere. It really must be a perspective thing.

[Cal]

Despite The Grinch (aka Evangelical) and his narrow-minded legalism, this is a wonderful book. I recommend it.

I must also add that Herman's progress since our days long ago is strikingly evident. So much for the Benson Phillip's nonsense that growth stops when you leave "the Recovery."

Take heart, those of you who have left the LSM! Take you eyes off your doubt and worry and, as Herman advises, focus them on the super-abounding grace of God, the wave after wave of grace upon grace that pours over each of us with the surety and rhythm of waves on a beach.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Despite The Grinch (aka Evangelical) and his narrow-minded legalism, this is a wonderful book. I recommend it.

I must also add that Herman's progress since our days long ago is strikingly evident. So much for the Benson Phillip's nonsense that growth stops when you leave "the Recovery."

Take heart, those of you who have left the LSM! Take you eyes off your doubt and worry and, as Herman advises, focus them on the super-abounding grace of God, the wave after wave of grace upon grace that pours over each of us with the surety and rhythm of waves on a beach.

Any idea when Massey left the LCM?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any idea when Massey left the LCM?

Well, he migrated to OKC in the mid-eighties. I think it was between 85-95, but I don't know for sure.

[Nell]

Igzy,

I haven't read the book, but I'm curious about how Herman handles the "Sloppy Grace, Gooey Grace, Sloppy Agape, Greasy Grace, etc." side of the topic? Many authors fail to discuss the accountability side of grace so I'm interested to hear his views...when and if you get that far into the book.

As Joyce Meyer says: Grace is not an excuse to live a sloppy life and think we're going to get by with it. Grace forgives us, but it also gives us the power to overcome.

Nell

[Cal]

I saw no evidence of cheap grace accolades. But why don't you just buy the book and read it? Aren't you at least curious about what ol' Herman has to say?

[Evangelical]

Enjoy those waves of sugary sweet grace, oh so sweet!

The author of this book's idea of grace like a river most likely comes from Lee. One would probably do just as well reading Lee's book " Abiding in the Lord to Enjoy His Life, by Witness Lee from which this book's ideas come.

A person reading the Bible separately from Lee would most likely not arrive at the idea of grace like a river by themselves. The Bible says peace flows like a river, not grace:
Isaiah 66:12 For this is what the LORD says: "I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees.

Isaiah 48:18 "If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

There is a well known song "It Is Well with My Soul" in which one verse says "when peace like a river". When I was in denominations I was mostly familiar with peace being like a river, not grace. This idea of grace like a river I got from Lee.

Lee most likely takes the idea of grace like a river from Rev 22:1, which mentions a river flowing from God's throne, and Heb 4:16 which calls the throne a throne of grace. Lee talks about the grace of God like a river flowing to us in his book Abiding in the Lord to Enjoy His Life, by Witness Lee.

The idea of grace flowing like a river is also found in Hymn #770 and Hymn #32 which lyrics were authored by Witness Lee.

So I hope the author appropriately acknowledges the source of his inspiration in his book, and properly references Lee's book or hymns where appropriate.

When Igzy says "I must also add that Herman's progress since our days long ago is strikingly evident. So much for the Benson Phillip's nonsense that growth stops when you leave "the Recovery."", I can't help but think that this book relaying the author's experiences of "grace like a river" could be viewed as evidence of an LSM success story, or a product of Lee's ministry.

[Ohio]

Evangelical, it sure seems hard for you to disguise all your bitterness behind a few lofty doctrines of grace.

And why don't you talk to some of the victims of Benson Phillip's rich supply of "grace" after he instructed his legal department to file all those lawsuits against other Christians.

It's quite interesting how you can accuse Massey of supposed plagiarism. We have been saying that all along about Lee. He stole profusely from "degraded Christianity" every chance he got.

And, btw, for all of those victims of LSM -- "sugary sweet grace" was never enough. They needed the real thing to endure all of LSM's abuses.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, it sure seems hard for you to disguise all your bitterness behind a few lofty doctrines of grace.

And why don't you talk to some of the victims of Benson Phillip's rich supply of "grace" after he instructed his legal department to file all those lawsuits against other Christians.

It's quite interesting how you can accuse Massey of supposed plagiarism. We have been saying that all along about Lee. He stole profusely from "degraded Christianity" every chance he got.

And, btw, for all of those victims of LSM -- "sugary sweet grace" was never enough. They needed the real thing to endure all of LSM's abuses.

I never accused anyone. All I am saying is that this book is clearly heavily influenced by Lee's ministry. Since you have been apart from the Recovery for so long you may not have recognized it, but I realized it the moment I read the title. I am bemused that people here would enjoy such a book so much, given the propensity to reject Lee's ministry. Yet this book is essentially Lee's ministry in another form. I am not aware of any bible preacher who focused on the idea of rivers of anything, as much as Lee. So, this book reads to me more like a success story of Lee's ministry than anything else.

If you can find where Lee "stole" the idea of "grace like a river" from please quote it. But I think we all know where Mr Massey got the idea from. Or the movement he was part of for so long has affected him so much, that he has never left Lee's ministry of flowing rivers of life and grace. For this reason I would recommend Lee's book Abiding in the Lord to Enjoy His Life which might be a good accompaniment to the book by Mr Massey.

Other books on the subject of God's grace, written by Protestant evangelicals, mostly focus on the objective and judicial aspects of that grace. Only Lee & those affected by his ministry could write at length about the subjective aspects of rivers of grace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

All I am saying is that this book is clearly heavily influenced by Lee's ministry. Since you have been apart from the Recovery for so long you may not have recognized it, but I realized it the moment I read the title. I am bemused that people here would enjoy such a book so much, given the propensity to reject Lee's ministry.

OK. Lee was heavily influenced by others. Should we then enjoy his ministry?

Let me repeat something I have said repeatedly. I appreciated much of Lee's ministry, and Chu's, and others too. Are not all for us, as Paul told us?

I don't like the way Lee (and the Blendeds) treated people. He was a poor example of the love of God. He made a ministry of condemning others. He rejected all critiques. He sued outsiders and excommunicated insiders. If one is able to get past the leaven, Lee's teachings are helpful. That's because he took them from others.

Evangelical, what you may never understand is how destructive the ministry has been to many people. It was not just about teachings. Lee was a bad pattern. Watching him, many beloved brothers became bullies, lording it over the elect.

.................................................. ............................

P.S. I'm waiting for you to accuse me of being "hung up" on all of LSM's lawsuits. I can agree with that.

[Evangelical]

Whose ministry was Lee heavily influenced by to arrive at the revelation that grace is like a river?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Whose ministry was Lee heavily influenced by to arrive at the revelation that grace is like a river?

Try T. Austin-Sparks: Rivers of Living Water, published 1957.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I saw no evidence of cheap grace accolades. But why don't you just buy the book and read it? Aren't you at least curious about what ol' Herman has to say?

Igzy's in the grace, Herman's in the grace; let's stand in the grace and boast in hope of the glory of God.

_for "in this grace we stand..."

Praise the Lord! JJ, Don Hose Jr, CountmeWorthy and many others.


"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Rom. 5:2)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Whose ministry was Lee heavily influenced by to arrive at the revelation that grace is like a river?

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Try T. Austin-Sparks: Rivers of Living Water, published 1957.

Unbelievable!

Can't make this stuff up folks.

[Evangelical]

So there are two possible sources of plagiarism for the book - Sparks and Lee. Why would we not just read these two books instead? Why do we need this book to see what Herman via Lee via Sparks has to say?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So there are two possible sources of plagiarism for the book - Sparks and Lee. Why would we not just read these two books instead? Why do we need this book to see what Herman via Lee via Sparks has to say?

Then by that logic, why do we need to read Lee either?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Then by that logic, why do we need to read Lee either?

Lee's book is not about rivers of grace, though he uses the phrase. It seems that Sparks devotes a whole chapter to the subject in his book:

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/004201.html

What's the coincidence that a book would be written along the same lines?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Then by that logic, why do we need to read Lee either?

Hi Brother Evan...., You remind me of me. But facts are what should prevail. We come to find out that of course WL built his ministry on those who went before him, he got tremendous help from others.
There was a poster named "EldenHall' who after reading thru the Brethren writings, (him and his wife), found that WL took much of the content of the economy of God from TASparks. I won't say more.
I'm tuning in to LSMradio.org at night and listen to tape after tape the last months. No question he had his commentaries, concordances, and lexicons out, then with those beneficial sources in front of him he came up with a well-sourced fellowship for the churches.
He would have something original also, but Nee, for one, went before him, and all those Brethren expositors did also. WL has acknowledged his sources. He got the help so that we could get the help.

The radio brothers believe and repeat what he says, and are usually quite impressed and I, for one, get the benefit of their fellowship. I also get the benefit of the brothers on the forum in their challenging some things he has said. Even the radio brothers admit, at times, that what they are supporting and repeating is not easy to understand (so they explain to the listeners what they know they might find difficult also to receive and understand).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Enjoy those waves of sugary sweet grace, oh so sweet! The author of this book's idea of grace like a river most likely comes from Lee. One would probably do just as well reading Lee's book " Abiding in the Lord to Enjoy His Life, by Witness Lee from which this book's ideas come.

Years ago in Columbus, I received much from the ministry of Phil Comfort. He was known as a "pure wordist," going back to the scripture for all his inspiration and teaching. After he left the LCM, he wrote a book on the Gospel of John. A & C reviewed the book, and "affirmed" nothing about it, basically claiming that he stole his riches from Lee.

Nothing could be further from the truth, but such is the hypocritical bitterness that always emanates from LSM lackeys. Their guy does it, and it's called "standing on the shoulders." Anyone else who leaves the LCM and writes a book is considered a thief. Or worse.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago in Columbus, I received much from the ministry of Phil Comfort. He was known as a "pure wordist," going back to the scripture for all his inspiration and teaching. After he left the LCM, he wrote a book on the Gospel of John. A & C reviewed the book, and "affirmed" nothing about it, basically claiming that he stole his riches from Lee.

Nothing could be further from the truth, but such is the hypocritical bitterness that always emanates from LSM lackeys. Their guy does it, and it's called "standing on the shoulders." Anyone else who leaves the LCM and writes a book is considered a thief. Or worse.

Or as Paul said in 1 Cor. 4
7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Nothing truly of God originates in man, including whatever Lee may have received. We are known by our fruit.
Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any idea when Massey left the LCM?

Old thread, but here's a little updated info on Herman. He was with our Scottsdale group up until about 10 years ago, when he and Kathleen moved back to OK. I last saw him maybe 3-4 years ago when he came for a visit and to talk about the book's subject. This bro is full of the experience of grace! I miss Herman. A few of the saints here are in somewhat regular contact with Herman & Kathleen I think.

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sounds like the "sugar daddy" version of grace.

I just ordered the book. I need all the grace God gives to me (Romans 5:17)