Non-LC member dating an LC member--help!

I have never done a "forum" before and perhaps I must be desperate. I literally stumbled across this forum as I was trying to figure out if the LC was a cult and what the heck I got into. I suppose I qualify as a "lurker."

Anyway, I met a guy about 4 years ago who is a devout member of the LC. Well, devout in how he talks, but his lifestyle does not at all reflect what he says. We had an on-again, off-again relationship over the years. Last year, we started talking about marriage and got more serious. However, I could never shake off the whole "spiritual" aspect of his life.

I was raised in a non-denominational church and could never understand what he was talking about or what was really going on during the LC church meetings. I consider myself an educated woman with the ability to reason. But no matter how I sliced it, I could never understand things like the "Triune God." His reason for my lack of understanding was because I was "veiled." He told me many strange things over the years and was extremely judgmental and critical of other christians. He did not believe I had a real relationship with God.

He told me that we were "unequally yoked" and the only way we could move towards marriage is if I chose to follow him in the LC. I balked and hesitated. I had no understanding for what was going on. He would cut off communication with me at times and then shortly thereafter, call me and want to see me again. It all was very confusing.

I refused to join the church, even though I cared about him. He has since left for his second term at the Full time training. Our relationship is muddled and without a label at this point. He has not communicated either. Probably because he's not allowed to.

1) I need to know what it means that he has joined the FTT? Is there any hope for him and his mental and emotional health?

2) Can someone please explain how one can claim to "know the truth" and "have the light" and yet their lives are in complete darkness and chaos? How can he not see that?

3) I need to know what the FTT means for him and how I can walk away and stop hoping for him to change if he never will. I need to be set free from this mess.

Thank you,

"Searching"

[TLFisher]

Generally I see the FTT as a rite of passage usually for college graduates who want to show how absolute for the local churches and Living Stream Ministry.
Though I lived with brothers who went through the full time training, I am years removed. I would recommend the insights of the poster 'Freedom" since his involvement with the local churches is probably more current and more precise in analyzing the perils of full-time trainees.
Best analogy I can think of Full time training is the Mormons and their missionary service. More serving to the organization/sect than it is benficial to the individual. There's no promises of full-time support once the training is completed. One may be expected to compete for employment in the work force just as everyone else does.
In response to your questions:

"1) I need to know what it means that he has joined the FTT? Is there any hope for him and his mental and emotional health? "
Each person is different. Brothers I have known became quite distant following the full time training. All semblance of their personality I knew prior to FTT was absent.

"2) Can someone please explain how one can claim to "know the truth" and "have the light" and yet their lives are in complete darkness and chaos? How can he not see that?"
A one word answer, deception.

"3) I need to know what the FTT means for him and how I can walk away and stop hoping for him to change if he never will. I need to be set free from this mess."
Seems he needs to be the one to answer the question. What does he hope to gain upon FTT graduation? Is it merely one process in achieving LC ambitions?

[UntoHim]

Thank you so much for your heartfelt post. I'm at a lost for words. The good news is that there are several Forum members who have gone through the Full-Time Training as a younger person and will probably have a lot better advise for you.

As far as the theological side of things, I can only recommend to you that you have to preach the genuine Gospel to your friend. As funny as it may sound, this "faux" theological seminary (the Full-Time Training) is extremely theologically imbalanced. About 95+% of the material is from the ministry of one man - Witness Lee. A scant few things come from the ministry of Lee's mentor, Watchman Nee (died in Chinese Communist prison 1972) I also can't say that the atmosphere of the FTTA is very socially balanced. And yes, one aspect is that they forbid ANY male-female contact. Of course the trainees know this going in so your friend is in a very tough situation. Pray for him. I know this doesn't give you much to go on, but the situation "is what it is".

I can assure you that many on the Forum will be praying for you and as I noted, some should be able to come on the Forum and give you some good advise.

Blessings
Your brother who is unto Him.

[Freedom]

You have come to the right place, and your concerns are well-rooted. First off, don’t feel bad about not understanding his LC involvement. It’s not meant to be understood by anyone except fellow LC members. Even in relation to other Christians, LC members avoid contact with them and will act aloof when they must interact with outside Christians. The LC is an environment that they will introduce newcomers to gradually (so as not to freak them out). In the LC, their so-called “spirituality” is a whole different world.

I would go so far as to separate the spirituality some members possess as being anything related to the Christian faith. To some members' spirituality is shouting “Oh Lord Jesus” at the top of their lungs, the louder the better. To some members, their spirituality is legalism: not celebrating holidays like Christmas, not going to movie theaters, not having a TV in the house, etc. To other members, spirituality is spending time socializing with other members, attending meetings every night, etc. Simply put, it’s not easy to tell what the driving force is behind the spirituality of any individual LC member. It could be any number of things. Be careful until you understand what he considers to be his “spirituality”.

Regarding the FTT, it’s where LC members go when they graduate from college. FTT attendance is basically an unspoken expectation for college graduates (and a college degree is a prerequisite). It is a two year commitment at their center in Anaheim, and they now have an additional one year extension that graduates are attending on the east coast in Boston. Additionally, they highly encourage graduates of the FTT to “serve full-time”, meaning they will be sent to a city to proselytize and recruit on the college campus in that city. It is thus highly likely that FTT graduates won’t function in a normal role in society upon graduation. They would push every young LC member to attend if they could do that. Those who don't attend aren't considered to be of any value in the LC. It is worth asking the question: what kind of Christian group would need to train all members in their ways for members to be considered of any value? Why would members need a two year training to be considered “useful”?

As far as the FTTA itself is concerned, some things have been stated already. There are strict rules about contact with the opposite sex, dress code, and attendees have to adhere to a strict schedule. Basically, every aspect of their life is controlled (and these are adults in their mid to late 20’s, mind you). Internet use is highly limited (this controls the flow of information to attendees). The FTT leaders would call this ‘training’, but I would call it control, pure and simple. I don’t just say this for no reason. Many friends of mine have gone. They always came back differently, and this really helped me to see what the FTTA really was. My friends became robots who only know how to do one thing, repeat the words of Witness Lee, who has been dead for almost 20 years. I knew people who went to the FTTA as good friends of mine, who loved to hang out, and they came back as people who were distant, who would hardly talk to me.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

...how can I walk away and hope he will change if he never will.

I need to be set free from this mess.

Thank you,

"Searching"

Searching,

This may seem cruel and heartless to you, but it's the best advice I can give you. Your friend will not change. If he does change, it might be for the worse. You can't make this about him. It has to be about you. You can't follow the Lord for him. You can only follow the Lord for yourself---and this you must do.

It's not about the FTT. Today you have a problem with the FTT. Tomorrow, you will have a problem with some other aspect of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

It appears that you have very good instincts. I would go with that. Most of us stayed in the Local Church because we ignored the warnings...the same ones the Lord is giving you. The way to be set free from "this mess" is to walk away and don't look back. I think I can safely say that all of us wish we had walked away long before we did.

You ARE free to walk away. You're not married to him, so you are free. Here's another biblical truth. A man's wife should be first in his life. In the LC they teach "if you take care of the church, the Lord will take care of your family." This is wrong, but you will always be "second" in his life. You will never understand why. You will only know the pain of being a woman whose husband allowed a "church" to violate her marriage. This is a common testimony on this forum for both men and women forum members.

There is such a thing as a "religious addiction". This is what you are seeing in your friend. There is really nothing you can do that will cause him to change. In fact, that's not your job. Only God can change him. God can only change him when he sees his need to follow the Lord---not Witness Lee---and makes the choice to do so.

It might also help you to find a Christian counsellor.

Again, your instincts are good. Thank the Lord for that. Ask the Lord to help you and give you the courage to follow Him and Him alone. Read your Bible. Just start at the beginning and read it like it is a book. Don't look for answers, for now, just read. Thank the Lord for where you are in your life and that He is your Lord and Savior.

Your friend is right. You are not equally yoked. There is no way you can be as long as he puts the local church first---before you. Give him to the Lord. Pray for him as the Lord leads, but in your heart, you are walking away to follow the Lord. Put him in the Lord's capable hands, realizing that you can't fix him.

This may sound harsh. I wish I had heard these words and had the courage to walk away long before I did.

Bless you in the path the Lord has for you. Cry your tears. God counts them all.


Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

As far as the FTTA itself is concerned, some things have been stated already. There are strict rules about contact with the opposite sex, dress code, and attendees have to adhere to a strict schedule. Basically, every aspect of their life is controlled

In other words then, the FTT is all about indoctrination and mind control ; the stuff of cults.

Thank you everyone. And thank you Nell for your wisdom. The truth does hurt, but you speak what I already know in my heart. Walking away and not looking back will be hard. But it's protection for me and my future.

I thank God for this site and for those of you who are willing to come along side a stranger to offer guidance.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thank you everyone. And thank you Nell for your wisdom. The truth does hurt, but you speak what I already know in my heart. Walking away and not looking back will be hard. But it's protection for me and my future.

I thank God for this site and for those of you who are willing to come along side a stranger to offer guidance.

You're not a stranger. You're family and we've been where you are.

Walking away will be hard, but you're not alone. These are the kind of experiences that you learn who Jesus is. Tell him everything. He knows anyway, but He loves to hear the sound of your voice. He is your best friend.

I'd be happy to stay in touch through the Private Message system if you would like to.

Blessings to you--
Nell

[Intothewind]

Thank you for your bravery. Please keep us in mind and updated if you wish...it sounds like some have reach out additionally as well. I dont think the training is something that can be easily understood. I agree with lc members that the training can be transformative...

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Freedom

My friends became robots who only know how to do one thing, repeat the words of Witness Lee, who has been dead for almost 20 years.

This is what I say about my poor husband! That he has become a robot regurgitating what has been spoon-fed to him. When he goes off on his pontificating tangents, I always ask him: can you repeat what you just said in your own words? Of course he is never able to because he has memorized the mumbo-jumbo verbatim and will not allow himself to critically/rationally think things through, less he "gets in his mind!"

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

This is what I say about my poor husband! That he has become a robot regurgitating what has been spoon-fed to him. When he goes off on his pontificating tangents, I always ask him: can you repeat what you just said in your own words? Of course he is never able to because he has memorized the mumbo-jumbo verbatim and will not allow himself to critically/rationally think things through, less he "gets in his mind!"

Sadly, it's just what members are programmed to do. It's worth noting that the whole concept of "prophesying" is intended that members would re-speak Lee's ministry in a declarative way. Because they are re-speaking something that someone else spoke, it's not necessarily something that means anything to them personally. It's really easy to mix up fact and fiction. I could study their outlines all day long and be just as confused as when I started, if not more confused.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Nell

Searching,

You ARE free to walk away. You're not married to him, so you are free. Here's another biblical truth. A man's wife should be first in his life. In the LC they teach "if you take care of the church, the Lord will take care of your family." This is wrong, but you will always be "second" in his life. You will never understand why. You will only know the pain of being a woman whose husband allowed a "church" to violate her marriage. This is a common testimony on this forum for both men and women forum members.

Nell

Searching,
Nell has spoken some wise words that you will hopefully be encouraged to ponder and give serious consideration to and of course, pray about. I think that sometimes, a woman's natural instinct to nurture causes us to believe we can "change" someone and take on a burden that is not ours to take on. You will never be able to change him or what is in his heart or the deception that he is in. Only the Lord can do that.

I am currently experiencing my own spiritual battle with my husband in regards to him "taking care of the church" and placing me 2nd. Mind you, keep in mind that we have been married for close to 20 years now and have two young children (8 & 9 years) together. I always remind him that God comes 1st, before anyone or anything, not "the church" and that I am NOT the burden WL has said wives are to their husbands.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I am currently experiencing my own spiritual battle with my husband in regards to him "taking care of the church" and placing me 2nd. Mind you, keep in mind that we have been married for close to 20 years now and have two young children (8 & 9 years) together. I always remind him that God comes 1st, before anyone or anything, not "the church" and that I am NOT the burden WL has said wives are to their husbands.

The LC constantly indoctrinates their people to "consecrate their lives to Christ and the church." They use Acts 9.5 to convince their people that we can never "separate Christ and the church." What a twisting of scripture!

Many of us can testify that putting "Christ and the church" first in our lives before our own families left us with neither Christ nor our family. Our first love to the Lord got replaced with endless hours of studying and reading LC literature. Our families got replaced by endless hours of church service in their programs.

Many members did not wake up until after their families fell apart. It was after I left the LC that the light of God shined in my heart when some pastor at the community church said, "first the Lord, then our family, then our work, then our church service." What a liberating word that was. "The truth shall set you free."

I have come back because I know I am welcome. I really appreciate all of the insight and prayers.

I am having a hard time "turning and never looking back" because many of his friends are my friends (the friends are not part of LC). This turning in my life indicates saying good bye to people I have grown to appreciate and care for. It really saddens me. There's more loss than just friendships. I wonder if saying goodbye to all aspects of this relationship (including certain friends) is the only way to move forward.

His mother still wants to see me and get together. I know she loves me and cares for me. But I can't help but wonder if everyone in his family (including him) only wants to see me and talk to me in order to "convert" me. I don't know. But I am having a hard time letting go of this whole situation because of the various losses that it brings. I am taking advice from others and bringing all of my thoughts and heart's desires to the Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am taking advice from others and bringing all of my thoughts and heart's desires to the Lord.

This is one of those things where you don't want to make a mistake. The stakes are too high. When you know the Lord's will, then you will know peace and you can move (either forward, with the relationship, or away from the relationship). Until you know the Lord's will, you are paralyzed.

And you can't know the Lord's move in this situation until you see the Lord's move for your life. You are here for a purpose: God's purpose. What is it? To believe, and someday go to heaven? What about in the meantime? Why are you here?

If your answer comes from the Living Stream Ministry Publishers in Anaheim California, then you are all set. Just be "one" with the ministry and marry a faithful brother in the LC. If you suspect your destiny may be revealed elsewhere, it isn't as easy or as fast as "do whatever the ministry is promoting", but you never know. It may come fast and hard. Just ask the Lord.

What I am saying is, don't ask, "Lord, what is your will in this situation?" but rather ask the Lord who you are, why you are here, why God saved you in the name of His only begotten Son. Why are you... you. God is very specific and very detailed: you alone are you. You have a unique destiny - find it. Then the other questions will be resolved.

Just some advice from a fellow traveler along life's highway. Peace.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

What I am saying is, don't ask, "Lord, what is your will in this situation?" but rather ask the Lord who you are, why you are here, why God saved you in the name of His only begotten Son. Why are you... you. God is very specific and very detailed: you alone are you. You have a unique destiny - find it. Then the other questions will be resolved.

Once you have the answer to why God made you, you; then you will have a peace that never leaves you. You will see your destiny rolled into every situation, no matter how seemingly "good" or "bad". God is a God of purpose, and when you link up with God's purpose for your life, then you'll never be disturbed. Everything works out for the good, for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. Romans 8

Thank you, Aron.
That response was very insightful and went straight to the heart of the matter. Thank you for the encouragement.

[aron]

At its core, life is not about who to date, or marry, or what job or career path to take. It is about finding God, and this involves finding God's purpose for creating you. Once you grasp that, at least somewhat, everything else (relationships, vocation, etc.) seems to sort itself out, because it all lines up.

Now, you'll still fail, perhaps often, and perhaps spectacularly. But God's will is immediate, in the "now", and so you'll always have a pathway home. You won't be lost at sea. You'll never be stuck in limbo, interminably wondering whether to go forward or back.

The key thing to remember, for me, is that even though God is really smart and I'm really dumb (relatively speaking), I can still have a conversation with God. Because God is so smart, He can even converse with people like me! Wow! God is really cool!

The Bible is about Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way home to the Father. For those of the Christian faith, there is no other. And, interestingly, just as Jesus reveals the Father (John 1:18, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15), so also does the Spirit delight to reveal the Son to us (John 14:26; 1 Cor 2:10).

So if you come to the Bible, and hear the voice of your Shepherd ("My sheep hear My voice"), that's the Holy Spirit revealing Christ to you. Once you get that, you get everything - you get guidance, you get comfort, you get the assurance that God is watching over you and caring for you. You no longer feel alone or lost. You're now involved in God's purpose, and God is coming into your life.

So my advice is to focus on the Word, and in the Word always remember that God cares for you and sent His Son, and wants to reveal the Son to you, via the Holy Spirit of God. Ask for this and you will receive, seek for this and you will find. And when you do, you'll instantly recognize that there's nothing else in this life more precious, more powerful, more meaningful, more good. Once that begins to resolve, so will everything else.

Aron, this is exactly what I needed to hear/read. Thank you.
How did you come to understand this truth in your life? It seems like you must have gone through quite the process in order to explain this depth of truth and insight.

[UntoHim]

Hey "Unregistered Guest", could you please take a couple of minutes and shoot an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com, including your desired UserName, and I will then get you registered as a member and will assign you a temporary password which you can change to one only you will know. This way your posts will not have to go through the moderation que and will appear immediately without delay. Also you will have access to the Private Message system where you can send and receive confidential correspondence from other forum members.

Thanks for your consideration.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Aron, this is exactly what I needed to hear/read. Thank you.

How did you come to understand this truth in your life? It seems like you must have gone through quite the process in order to explain this depth of truth and insight.

I'm glad my thoughts resonated with you. But really, I wouldn't even know where to begin to answer the question. All I can say is that I got thrashed around by the world, then repented and went through various religious programmes like that of Mssrs. Nee and Lee and the Local Church group. Got discouraged and gave up on God. Eventually, and little by little, began to re-calibrate and re-orient toward the light of God which emanates to all who seek Him.

I'm trying to figure out how to register. I was in the Lc from 1969 to 1990. I left after publishing a book of 200 pages in response to the new way and Taiwan training in the late 1980s. I knew bill mallon for 15 years and they were going to excommunicated me for my association with him. I left voluntarily. Up to that time I was at every training, 10 meetings a week and traveled to almost every conference, especially those on the east coast.

[UntoHim]

Sorry for the trouble! Simply send an email requesting to be registered along with your desired UserName (cf: "UntoHim" or "Ohio", etc) to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and we'll get you set up right away!
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry for the trouble! Simply send an email requesting to be registered along with your desired UserName (cf: "UntoHim" or "Ohio", etc) to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and we'll get you set up right away!
-

That's all we need is two "Ohio's."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm trying to figure out how to register. I was in the Lc from 1969 to 1990. I left after publishing a book of 200 pages in response to the new way and Taiwan training in the late 1980s. I knew bill mallon for 15 years and they were going to excommunicated me for my association with him. I left voluntarily. Up to that time I was at every training, 10 meetings a week and traveled to almost every conference, especially those on the east coast.

What was the book's title?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm trying to figure out how to register. I was in the Lc from 1969 to 1990. I left after publishing a book of 200 pages in response to the new way and Taiwan training in the late 1980s. I knew bill mallon for 15 years and they were going to excommunicated me for my association with him. I left voluntarily. Up to that time I was at every training, 10 meetings a week and traveled to almost every conference, especially those on the east coast.

Simply send an email requesting to be registered along with your desired UserName (cf: "UntoHim" or "Ohio", etc) to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and we'll get you set up right away!
-

If you still love your boy friend, I can say you should give him more time. Your boy friend is still young and he will learn more as he grow up. As for local church, do not scare too much. I am in a local church as well but not in teaching by living stream any more. As for Full-time training, they just teach on how to love the Lord. Your boy friend go to FTT indicating he has good heart on the Lord. There are many ways to love the Lord, as your boy friend grow up, he will find the best ways. You said you both have common friends, so you can ask your friends about him.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have never done a "forum" before and perhaps I must be desperate. I literally stumbled across this forum as I was trying to figure out if the LC was a cult and what the heck I got into. I suppose I qualify as a "lurker."

Anyway, I met a guy about 4 years ago who is a devout member of the LC. Well, devout in how he talks, but his lifestyle does not at all reflect what he says. We had an on-again, off-again relationship over the years. Last year, we started talking about marriage and got more serious. However, I could never shake off the whole "spiritual" aspect of his life.

I was raised in a non-denominational church and could never understand what he was talking about or what was really going on during the LC church meetings. I consider myself an educated woman with the ability to reason. But no matter how I sliced it, I could never understand things like the "Triune God." His reason for my lack of understanding was because I was "veiled." He told me many strange things over the years and was extremely judgmental and critical of other christians. He did not believe I had a real relationship with God.

He told me that we were "unequally yoked" and the only way we could move towards marriage is if I chose to follow him in the LC. I balked and hesitated. I had no understanding for what was going on. He would cut off communication with me at times and then shortly thereafter, call me and want to see me again. It all was very confusing.

I refused to join the church, even though I cared about him. He has since left for his second term at the Full time training. Our relationship is muddled and without a label at this point. He has not communicated either. Probably because he's not allowed to.

1) I need to know what it means that he has joined the FTT? Is there any hope for him and his mental and emotional health?

2) Can someone please explain how one can claim to "know the truth" and "have the light" and yet their lives are in complete darkness and chaos? How can he not see that?

3) I need to know what the FTT means for him and how I can walk away and stop hoping for him to change if he never will. I need to be set free from this mess.

Thank you,

"Searching"

I've been reading through the original messages from 2015 (from the non-denominational woman who was in an on-again/off-again relationship with an LC-man), and I can very much relate to the confusion, frustration, and love that she has (had?) for this man.

I was raised in the southern baptist denomination. I currently enjoy fellowship with a non-denominational group of believers. I met an LC-man fairly recently. He and I enjoyed fellowshipping about the Lord together. However, as things got more serious, he was deadset on me being a part of the LC. I would question why it was so important for me to be a part of it and why he wasn't willing to fellowship with the group of believers I fellowship with. He would bring up the same thing that an LC-woman (neither of whom knew each other) would whenever I questioned this: "If there are four 'churches' on a street corner, how do you know with which one to fellowship?" (And, the arguing would continue as we attempted to discuss this.)

I could go in to a lot more detail, but suffice it to say, this discussion has helped me to realize that the prayer I prayed was very helpful. I prayed that God would do whatever it takes to get me to where He wants me. I prayed that prayer consistently, and I still do. I want to be in the center of His will for me, no matter the cost. (I caution anyone about praying this if you're not prepared for the consequences because God IS at work... constantly.) After I started praying that prayer, I believe God orchestrated it so that I could get out of the relationship. (I won't give the details of how that happened... in case this LC-man or his family happens to see this.)

It has not been easy. The LC-man continues to contact me on occasion. It usually ends up with us arguing about the LC even though he claims he is not arguing.

If you (the original initiator of this 'thread') see this, I hope it somehow helps. Your openness in sharing has helped me. Thank you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by undisclosed location

"If there are four 'churches' on a street corner, how do you know with which one to fellowship?"

It's a good question, and one all Evangelical Protestants and post-Protestants (non-denominational, etc) have to grapple with at some level. (I don't see it as germane to the RCC or Orthodox fellowships - for them the question is moot).

But if orientation toward the single, grand collective, i.e. the oft-stated 'ground of the church' were the answer, then by rights Luther never should have left the RCC. If it were all simply about the church as the Body of Christ and pillar and base of the truth, then 'justified by faith alone' became the lever of dissolution. Because if it were actually about such 'recovered truth' then what's to stop other believers from splitting apart every time one of them discovers some new important point in the Biblical text? And then you get your hypothetical problem of four 'churches' on a street corner.

And I write as a child of Protestantism - "I'm a Pharisee and son of Pharisees!", cried Paul, and truthfully. But he like the Galilean fisherman before him, had seen the Light. And the light is not 'the church' nor 'the ground' nor the 'one apostle per age' nor the 'one trumpet' or any of the subsequent and supposedly necessary corollaries.

Anyway, if you did get sucked in by such a question posed by your LC acquantance you'd eventually find it's ignored in practice. Because I knew of members who'd drive past one 'local church' assembly to get to another, whose leadership was more 'absolute for the ministry', or where child care was more amenable, or where they didn't squabble with other members. Once you get in the system, you learn to ignore the glaring hypocrisies.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

the light is not 'the church' nor 'the ground' nor the 'one apostle per age' nor the 'one trumpet' or any of the subsequent and supposedly necessary corollaries.

AMEN!!!!

to Aron: I agree with you.

In my opinion, too much emphasis placed on "church" and not on our Creator is the problem/issue.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by undisclosed location

I would question why it was so important for me to be a part of it and why he wasn't willing to fellowship with the group of believers I fellowship with.

What it comes down to is LSM publications is considered essential for fellowship. It's not about what assembly you meet with on Sunday mornings. For years I hosted a home meeting in my home and the brothers who came met with various assemblies on Sunday mornings. We all shared the life of Christ in us and coming together in the Word.
In my experience I have invited a brother I knew from the LC, a cousin I knew from the LC. Since the fellowship was not a LC home meeting, it's was as if saying, "thanks, but no thanks".

It's rather ironic that the LC claim to believe that denominations are a division of the body of Christ whenever they themselves are being divisive by only meeting with "LC" groups. When I tried to mention this to the LC man (who I mentioned above) as well as to other LC "members", they would all argue that they are not divisive but welcome any one into their meetings. It was always an endless, argumentative cycle.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by undisclosed location

It's rather ironic that the LC claim to believe that denominations are a division of the body of Christ whenever they themselves are being divisive by only meeting with "LC" groups. When I tried to mention this to the LC man (who I mentioned above) as well as to other LC "members", they would all argue that they are not divisive but welcome any one into their meetings. It was always an endless, argumentative cycle.

Dear Undisclosed Location, what you have just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg of contradiction and hypocrisy at LSM-run LC's.

Originally Posted by Ohio

what you have just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg of contradiction and hypocrisy at LSM-run LC's.

Oh, I'm 100% certain of that. It's rather sad that they claim to be the Lord's "recovery" (which of course in and of itself is not biblical) and yet they are just like all the rest of believers/followers of Christ/Christians. None of us is perfect. One day we shall be made completely like Jesus; but until that time, there will always be hypocrites within the body of Christ. And, we are all still a "work in progress." Praise God that He is not finished with us yet!

[Guest M]

I am so sorry you are going through this pain. That is very hurtful.

I have some strong thoughts about this from especially two perspectives. 1) I was there. And 2) I was a "sister."

So...I'll try to keep this brief. And I'm not going to argue with anyone about it, because I may say some things people don't like. If it resonates with you, any of it, I hope it helps!

The FTT was, in my experience, I think as someone said a bit of a rites of passage...for men. It is a place that rewards them for being the promising lights of tomorrow's leadership. Some of us went there, and some go there, because we were not sure what to do, and thought if we went there, God (i.e., in the form of someone else) would tell us. Once you get there, it is some serious conditioning. You spend ALLLLLLLLLL your time in meetings with fellow trainees. It does not surprise me at all that you have had off and on contact with him.

Here's my perspective and how I would handle it, personally: You want to talk about unequally yoked? A marriage/partnership is exactly that: A PARTNERSHIP. Yeah, you're right you're unequally yoked. You're unequally yoked to him, as much as he sees himself as unequally yoked to go. Someone needs to tell that boy it goes both ways. What makes him think the answer to this is for YOU to follow HIM? Partnership is about compromise. Being "yoked" is about going through life together. You both change. (Yes, I am married, successfully, going on about 7 years...together for about 10 now. Respectable enough!)

The way I see it, you are the one holding the reigns here. I would say he's sorta given you an ultimatum; now you give him a counter one.

I may sound here like I'm being harsh, making this about a competition or gender war, but I'm only talking that way to pull this back to the center. Every person has a right to their boundaries, their soft nos and hard nos, in a relationship. That includes you. Maybe I don't have to tell you this...it sounds like you have that idea already and see where this may lead.

To bring this back to the FTT and what you can expect...there is a very likely chance that he will let you go. I say that because he is already being heavily persuaded to do so, I guarantee you. His informing you that you need to join with him in the LC may actually be a bit of desperation, a hope that he will not HAVE to let you go. But he knows that he will. He will...or decide between you and the FTT.

I said it's a good possibility he will let you go...probability even...but it's not 100%. If he thinks he has a chance of convincing you, he may believe it is crystal clear. If he is faced, however, with a firm confirmation from you that that's not in your future, he may suddenly find this decision much more difficult.

so...imo, it's worth it to draw that line, as it were. This is where you both find out if you will continue together or not. Someone's gotta give. Him being with you, I take it, does not require him to leave the LC...at least that doesn't appear to be the case for you so far, am I right? If so, than your option presents the most flexibility for the both of you than his. Now, if he pursues you or maintains contact, while at the FTT, and they KNOW about it, rest assured there is a good chance he may be told he cannot continue in the FTT. And that may be very hard for him. But let's say he's really in love with you AND knows he wants to move forward in life with you (I'm sure he is really in love with you either way), the decision may be clear.

And unless things have DRASTically changed since I left, he's not like, going to be excommunicated or something. he can still fellowship with the church. (He would absolutely not be the first person to go along with things up to a point, and still stick around. One of the reasons I think my experience was a little less creepy than others' is because I was fortunate enough to have parents who modeled taking things with a grain of salt, having boundaries. They might have been with the church, but they didn't let it dictate their every move. And no one has minded or given them a hard time about it.) He might start pressuring you, then, to get married as soon as possible, and that would be another thing you'd have to negotiate over and find an ACCEPTABLE meeting place for the both of you, not one giving in to the other. But in any case, he would hardly be without company as someone who has been "unequally yoked." Despite the LC's reputation for interfering in and trying to arrange marriages, there is hardly anything more likely to break the bonds of control within any group or influence than romantic partnership. Just forget it. LOL We've been around thousands of years now and even THEY know this So really, it's up to the two of you.

He's got to understand that this marriage is two people, not you, him, and a church-full of leading brothers who all know what's best for you. smh. And God? Sure, you want to argue God is part of it...if that is true for both of you, then it's true. But he doesn't get to tell you your relationship with God is not legitimate and his is. There is some basic respect he needs to learn. You will only see whether or not he will ultimately give you this respect, if you yourself are clear in what you will and will not accept.

Even if you subscribe to the idea of man being the head of woman (which I don't and think is absolutely ridiculous bunk BUT I respect that others do and that's fine), that does not mean the marriage is not still a partnership, nor does it mean that one person's will gets to dominate the others. I saw some happy marriages in the LC...unless they were REALLY good at faking, and I was fortunate enough to see my parents have one, which they still have.

And many Christians are able to have this viewpoint and still not have it make them unequal to each other as partners. Some make this work very, very beautifully. It's not about the beliefs alone. It's about the relationship you each have with each other AND, more importantly, with God. That is what will determine your chances, and the quality of the partnership.

I am erring on the positive side here, and assuming he really cares about you and wants to be with you. Assuming that, I know the things he is saying, and that he believes, are hurtful. Try to remember that they are coming from fear and/or hopefulness. He is trying to find a way to make it work. Partners have overcome upbringing and beliefs before, gradually working toward the middle compromise after compromise. It's not impossible. I think really at this point you just either have to let him go if you've already decided to do so, or you have to make clear to him what you will and won't do, and see then how he responds.

*sigh* I hope that's helpful. I will hope for the both of you...it would be wonderful for you both to be happy and find that middle ground.

I'm inviting you to PM me if you'd like. More frank discussions might be more suitable in confidence, woman to woman.

Waiting with baited breath to see what happens...best of luck!

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have never done a "forum" before and perhaps I must be desperate. I literally stumbled across this forum as I was trying to figure out if the LC was a cult and what the heck I got into. I suppose I qualify as a "lurker."

Anyway, I met a guy about 4 years ago who is a devout member of the LC. Well, devout in how he talks, but his lifestyle does not at all reflect what he says. We had an on-again, off-again relationship over the years. Last year, we started talking about marriage and got more serious. However, I could never shake off the whole "spiritual" aspect of his life.

I was raised in a non-denominational church and could never understand what he was talking about or what was really going on during the LC church meetings. I consider myself an educated woman with the ability to reason. But no matter how I sliced it, I could never understand things like the "Triune God." His reason for my lack of understanding was because I was "veiled." He told me many strange things over the years and was extremely judgmental and critical of other christians. He did not believe I had a real relationship with God.

He told me that we were "unequally yoked" and the only way we could move towards marriage is if I chose to follow him in the LC. I balked and hesitated. I had no understanding for what was going on. He would cut off communication with me at times and then shortly thereafter, call me and want to see me again. It all was very confusing.

I refused to join the church, even though I cared about him. He has since left for his second term at the Full time training. Our relationship is muddled and without a label at this point. He has not communicated either. Probably because he's not allowed to.

1) I need to know what it means that he has joined the FTT? Is there any hope for him and his mental and emotional health?

2) Can someone please explain how one can claim to "know the truth" and "have the light" and yet their lives are in complete darkness and chaos? How can he not see that?

3) I need to know what the FTT means for him and how I can walk away and stop hoping for him to change if he never will. I need to be set free from this mess.

Thank you,

"Searching"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyway, I met a guy about 4 years ago who is a devout member of the LC. Well, devout in how he talks, but his lifestyle does not at all reflect what he says. We had an on-again, off-again relationship over the years. Last year, we started talking about marriage and got more serious. However, I could never shake off the whole "spiritual" aspect of his life.

I was raised in a non-denominational church and could never understand what he was talking about or what was really going on during the LC church meetings. I consider myself an educated woman with the ability to reason. But no matter how I sliced it, I could never understand things like the "Triune God." His reason for my lack of understanding was because I was "veiled." He told me many strange things over the years and was extremely judgmental and critical of other christians. He did not believe I had a real relationship with God.

He told me that we were "unequally yoked" and the only way we could move towards marriage is if I chose to follow him in the LC.

"Unequally yoked" is a term that is Biblical (2nd Corinthians 6:14), but in my experiences those that are in the local churches or were at one time becomes a type of spiritual baggage.
"Unequally yoked" is a term used in the local churches to justify why a couple should not marry or why they should be divorced. 2nd Corinthians 6:14 is in regard to a believer or non-believer. Unfortunately when ones leave the local churches they carry this type of baggage with them.
For a married Christian couple to be told they are unequally yoked is basically saying one of them is as a non-believer. This is what happened to a non-LC couple I know.
As I have told my wife, any brother wanting to wait for a sister they are equally yoked to (according to LC concepts), might be waiting for a long long time. It's just life. It's been my observation Christian couples generally do not grow spiritually at the same rate.