Was Day Star poor judgment or fraud?

[ZNPaaneah]

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

[Cal]

Many things that start out simply as poor judgment end up being frauds.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud. In response to your questions;
1. NO
2. NO
3. Not that I ever heard of.
4. Who knows who all the investors were? My dad and another brother I know who invested did recoup their investment.
5. NO

[UntoHim]

Guys,
This has been discussed at length here on the forum. Could one of you please find the thread that is most applicable and lets continue this conversation there. Thanks

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud. In response to your questions;
1. NO
2. NO
3. Not that I ever heard of.
4. Who knows who all the investors were? My dad and another brother I know who invested did recoup their investment.
5. NO

If WL had hired Ernst and Young to do a thorough audit of the firm after its demise and then made the report available to every church involved he would have been able to argue that this was not fraud. Perhaps they would have found errors made and perhaps this would have exposed WL and his sons as incompetent businessmen but no one would be able to accuse him of fraud. However, he didn't do that. This suggests he was hiding something.

The fact that two brothers complained that the business practices were not legitimate, he ignored them and they quit tells me that there are other brothers who did know what was going on and agree that it was not kosher. In essence, where there is smoke there is fire.

The fact that his son PL who was involved in the failed venture and by all accounts is not someone suitable to run a Christian ministry, then became the business manager at the LSM is quite alarming to me. I would think that one of the lessons that should have been learned from DayStar was not to mix church business with family business. This suggests to me that there was no repentance. This is supported by the fact that something similar caused his exodus from Taiwan. Again, there does not appear to be any repentance. This is supported by the fact that many of the allegations against WN were of embezzelment. Time and time again WL appears to be closely linked to fraud without any evidence of repentance.

The fact that PL, the philanderer, was valuable enough to protect that WL had Max excommunicated and fabricated the Sister's rebellion as a smokescreen suggests to me a coverup. That is evidence of fraud.

Secret bank accounts to pay back some creditors is also evidence of fraud.

Replacing JI, AK, JS, BM, etc. with the Texas cohort is evidence of how valuable PL was. PL being this valuable is inexplicable unless he kept secrets that were more valuable to WL than the LRC. This to me is evidence that WL was a fraud.

Publishing a book that is a whitewash of the events is evidence of a coverup and suggests a fraud.

WL fabricating a story about WN is evidence of deceit. WL founding the church in the US based on WN's teachings in TNCCL and then in 1974 abandoning key principles without any explanation suggests deceit to me. WL putting a philanderer into an important ministry position suggests a deceitful man.

To me all the evidence tells me the man was a fraud. So far the only case made to the contrary is that people "don't feel" he was a fraud. Where is the evidence?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud.

Timing was a problem. Who could have anticipated the oil embargo. But as I understand it, the manufacturer was virtually guaranteed a profit while the sales company (what all the members invested in) pre-purchased their inventory and were stuck with it.

But I saw one of the first Daystars arrive in Dallas. Came to someone's house on Buckner Blvd in the Casa Linda area. I was there with some others waiting to see it. Bob Bynum drove it up and turned it off and it took almost 30 seconds for the brand new engine to stop dieseling.

The insides were something with their fancy wood. And that hand-hammered, stainless shell shell looked impressive. But pictures of one seen recently was pretty sad. Lots of signs of rust.

I do not know if the craftsmanship was actually so good. But the materials were top-of-the-line for the time.

[OBW]

Z,

You first question is the one that is most significant to me. It is the fact that it was promoted. It was a solicitation to invest. I believe that means it is subject to SEC rules. And there is no indication that they even allowed any state to know that the companies involved existed. No registrations. Therefore they skirted (illegally) all of the rules.

Therefore, the promotion could not be above reproach because it would appear that the whole thing was done in a manner full of reproach. Full of deceit.

And the alleged fact that the companies were not registered anywhere would indicate that they never had to reflect why they ceased filing anything. They just quit operating. Someone suggested that they did not file bankruptcy. That is probably because that would bring the companies into the light. And these companies needed darkness, not light. No. They just stopped operating.

That is my opinion based on the observations and reporting of many others in the threads here and on the Bereans that have covered it in the past. I cannot verify their accuracy. I lost nothing on it. Too young to have anything to invest. But my dad did. But I think he figured it would never make a return anyway and considered it gone when he wrote the check. But not too many could take that position.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Z,

You first question is the one that is most significant to me. It is the fact that it was promoted. It was a solicitation to invest. I believe that means it is subject to SEC rules. And there is no indication that they even allowed any state to know that the companies involved existed. No registrations. Therefore they skirted (illegally) all of the rules.

Therefore, the promotion could not be above reproach because it would appear that the whole thing was done in a manner full of reproach. Full of deceit.

And the alleged fact that the companies were not registered anywhere would indicate that they never had to reflect why they ceased filing anything. They just quit operating. Someone suggested that they did not file bankruptcy. That is probably because that would bring the companies into the light. And these companies needed darkness, not light. No. They just stopped operating.

That is my opinion based on the observations and reporting of many others in the threads here and on the Bereans that have covered it in the past. I cannot verify their accuracy. I lost nothing on it. Too young to have anything to invest. But my dad did. But I think he figured it would never make a return anyway and considered it gone when he wrote the check. But not too many could take that position.

Excellent, thanks for this very lucid account. From the very beginning this investment was done in a way that was not legitimate. If this had been registered with the SEC then they would have been required to promote it and offer it only to qualified investors which the vast majority within the LRC were not.

Also, only a fool would think that it was a coincidence that the investment WL had was "guaranteed" to make money while the investment that the LRC took had 100% of the risk.

Had this been done properly at the start it would be evidence that it wasn't a scam from the get go, but there is no evidence of that. Again, all of the evidence points to fraud.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Also, only a fool would think that it was a coincidence that the investment WL had was "guaranteed" to make money while the investment that the LRC took had 100% of the risk.

Had this been done properly at the start it would be evidence that it wasn't a scam from the get go, but there is no evidence of that. Again, all of the evidence points to fraud.

Speaking to brothers who were in investment meetings, I don't recall the word risk ever being used. Rather their investment was guaranteed a return.

I don't see Daystar as a fraud. It was done apparently skirting business laws. If Daystar was a fraud, no one would have been compensated for their investment.
Can you say it was mismanaged?
Can you say it lacked transparency?
Can you say it was illegal?

TR said so and for TR's function as a whistleblower, JB had him removed from fellowship.

What doesn't sit well with people who knew about Daystar can be said about other companies that get mismanaged and ran into the ground.....Enron, Washington Mutual, Albertson's, etc. Investors and employees lose out while the CEO's get a lucrative package.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

But as I understand it, the manufacturer was virtually guaranteed a profit while the sales company (what all the members invested in) pre-purchased their inventory and were stuck with it.

Is this correct that WL and his sons were not invested in the sales company which bore all of the risk but were invested in the manufacturing end? They guaranteed themselves a profit?

Ezekiel
34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship.

Yup ... superb craftsmanship!



Daystar is listed with a collection of Old & Unusual Motorhomes.

Caption says, "This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

Another site had this caption, "The Daystar, built in 1975, utilized a Dodge chassis as a foundation for its design. The eye-catching design boasted an all COR-TEN steel body and teak interior and purportedly sold over $70,000. Only 16 were ever built, making this unique motor-home one of the rarest ever built."



Caption on this pic say, "Included as it appears older. Amazing old world craftsmanship evident in the full teak interior. This Daystar is 1 of 16 ever made. Owner's uncle won it in a poker game back in '76. Actually, he won a Cessna - then proceeded to fly the plane having never done so. And drunk. Crashed the plane attempting to take off, then traded the Cessna for the Daystar. All in ONE night!

Still runs. Could use some refreshing after a homeless man called it home for a spell."

Another site said, "The Daystar came into being desiring to be the premier motorhome of the age. Everything was done in five-star class. 24 karat gold plated faucets in the bath. Genuine Italian marble or onyx vanity tops. 100% virgin wool carpet AND, at the time the only full size bath tub in any motorhome on the market.

At the Los Angeles RV show in '74 or '75 a woman was seen exiting the Daystar, weeping. When asked why she was crying, she said that she had just bought a Barth at well over $100,000 and it was not nearly as well appointed as the Daystar.

They were custom finished to the buyers specs. The Texas model was sold to an avid University of Texas alumni and sported bucksin leather seats, and a burnt orange and white paint job among other things."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yup ... superb craftsmanship!



Daystar is listed with a collection of Old & Unusual Motorhomes.

Caption says, "This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

By comparison here is a link to a 1976 Winnebago which probably sold for half the cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3xSyhpyB_E

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another site had this caption, "The Daystar, built in 1975, utilized a Dodge chassis as a foundation for its design. The eye-catching design boasted an all COR-TEN steel body and teak interior and purportedly sold over $70,000. Only 16 were ever built, making this unique motor-home one of the rarest ever built."

Caption on this pic say, "Included as it appears older. Amazing old world craftsmanship evident in the full teak interior. This Daystar is 1 of 16 ever made. Owner's uncle won it in a poker game back in '76. Actually, he won a Cessna - then proceeded to fly the plane having never done so. And drunk. Crashed the plane attempting to take off, then traded the Cessna for the Daystar. All in ONE night!"

Another site said, "The Daystar came into being desiring to be the premier motorhome of the age. Everything was done in five-star class. 24 karat gold plated faucets in the bath. Genuine Italian marble or onyx vanity tops. 100% virgin wool carpet AND, at the time the only full size bath tub in any motorhome on the market.

At the Los Angeles RV show in '74 or '75 a woman was seen exiting the Daystar, weeping. When asked why she was crying, she said that she had just bought a Barth at well over $100,000 and it was not nearly as well appointed as the Daystar.

They were custom finished to the buyers specs. The Texas model was sold to an avid University of Texas alumni and sported bucksin leather seats, and a burnt orange and white paint job among other things."

I'm not buying the prevailing thinking that the energy crisis was Daystar's demise. Folks who can afford teak, gold, and marble, care little for gas prices. Daystar was to be the Motorhome Of The Age (MOTA). Perhaps Daystar should have been renamed "MOTAhome" or "mobileMOTA."

Surfin' the web showed how these things have become collector's items of sorts. Among motorhome aficionados, this thing has reached celebrity status. CorTen steel never rusts. These "bodies" will last till the New Jerusalem. Look what one guy did ... he even modified that horrendous front grill. Looks like a fire truck.





I'm surprised LSM hasn't bought a vintage Daystar to place on display at their new campus facility. Think about the caption, "MOTA that launched LSM." They could post pictures of Timothy Lee, the first president, along with that pretty sister in a bikini who modeled the MOTA. Why would Bibles For America staff cruise the country in a competitor's second class motor home? Have they no shame? Have they forgotten their rich heritage?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Daystar was to be the Motorhome Of The Age (MOTA).


I'm surprised LSM hasn't bought a vintage Daystar to place on display at their new campus facility. Think about the caption, "MOTA that launched LSM." They could post pictures of Timothy Lee, the first president, along with that pretty sister in a bikini who modeled the MOTA. Why would Bibles For America staff cruise the country in a competitor's second class motor home? Have they no shame? Have they forgotten their rich heritage?

[Cal]

The metaphorical value is striking.

Unique. Ambitious. Ill-advised. Obscure. Bizarre. Surface appeal hides deep flaws. Sought by those seeking to be different. Ignored by those who know better. A shadow of its former self. A blip in history. Destined for the junk heap.

Yep. Sounds like LSM alright.




Caption: One used very weird ministry for sale. Once considered the MOTA. Relive the glorious 70s. Cheap.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

This event probably revealed both. But if the early American LC brothers had done their homework it would have been no surprise. The truth is that they didn't want to know the truth about Witness Lee. They liked what he was selling, so they buried their heads in the sand. The fact is that there were a number of older brothers and sisters from the early days in mainland China who knew what Lee was all about. Had these early American LC brothers (Gruhler, Ingalls, Barber et al, et al) done their due diligence, they would have found out that the Daystar deal was not Witness Lee's first trip to the rodeo. He had been there and done that several times before...thus the acting god could be callous enough to tell people who had lost their life savings that "oh well, you just lost your virginity!".

But I digress....
The loss of live savings, my dear brothers and sisters, is a mere pittance to the real thievery of Witness Lee (easy for me to say....I lost not a shekel). Nonetheless, "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Pretty heavy duty, I know. But think about it. Daystar, Linko, cheap plastic chairs, tennis rackets.....what if they all went bankrupt...what if they all did fantastically well and all the "investors" became fabulously wealthy? What will it profit a man?

I would submit to you all that if you combined all the hair brained schemes of Witness Lee, and totaled up all the monetary damage done by him and his sons, they would not compare to the spiritual and psychological damage done to the littlest of brothers and sisters. Life savings can be earned back. Actual lives cannot be earned back. Only by God's infinite mercy, amazing grace and supernatural, resurrection power can the damage be repaired. This is what it's ALL ABOUT my dear friends. If it can't happen here, if it can't happen now then we are just wasting our time. More importantly we are wasting God's time (if that's actually possible).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

1. I would say no. You can look at the legal requirements and fiduciary responsibility and see that this is clearly no.
2. No. On the contrary, those in the know who protested were booted. It is my feeling that the reason PL was so critical to the WL that he was put in charge of LSM was that he did know what happened at Daystar.
3. No.
4. No. The idea that secret payments were paid to some is outrageous and fraudulent.
5. No.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

I always say the same thing about our current administration -- pay no attention to what they say, rather watch what they do.

Corruption in politics is difficult enough to swallow, and how much more in the church of God. Since Witness Lee continually judged the failures in Christianity and constantly proclaimed that his ministry was built solely upon the death and resurrection of Christ and pure and free from any of the degradations of the rest of the body of Christ, (kind of like that recent claim I heard about having the most "transparent" administration in American history) the numerous reproaches surrounding Daystar are particularly egregious.

Since I believed that Witness Lee was a special oracle from God for the best 30 years of my life, it was especially hard for me to finally accept that Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministry were just as corrupt as so many other ministries making it into Christian tabloids. Then I read about that first elders/workers conference in January 1974 in the heyday of the Daystar debacle, in which Witness Lee enacted numerous controls over all the other leaders and local churches, and my delusions of being a part of God's "unique testimony" vaporized.

Yes, Lee had received some unique teachings gleaned from his days with the Brethren and Watchman Nee, but no, his ministry was not above reproach. In fact, starting at this point going forward, there was little else but reproach when it came to handling the things of God. There is overwhelming evidence that WL and LSM did not just exercise bad judgment and make a few mistakes. Rather they continually displayed an attitude that they were above the law, and worse, they were entitled to write new law.

In my mind, the way Witness Lee treated those who voiced legitimate concerns based on the word of God is no different than the way our current administration has used the IRS to intimidate and silence their opposition.

Rotten politics at LSM? Absolutely!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I always say the same thing about our current administration -- pay no attention to what they say, rather watch what they do.

Corruption in politics is difficult enough to swallow, and how much more in the church of God.

In my mind, the way Witness Lee treated those who voiced legitimate concerns based on the word of God is no different than the way our current administration has used the IRS to intimidate and silence their opposition.

Rotten politics at LSM? Absolutely!

Case and point last November when Ron Kangas and James Lee came to the NW. As with the current administration, spoke a good word, but what about what they do? No doubt if brother Ron knew where I'm visiting in August, he'll give a good word to have me excluded from fellowship just as brother James did to the Sandovals in Vista, CA.
Back to Ohio's post. Americans generally think politicians are corrupt. I won't say all are, but if you are a genuine public servant, your politically ambitions will not succeed because you're not corrupt. Pertaining to the Local Churches, it's been said the "there's no politics in the churchlife". I care enough to voice my disagreement with that concept. Ideally there should be no politics, but there is. If there was no politics certain brothers would not be "quarantined" or "disfellowshipped" for being politically incorrect. Because if there's no politics in the churchlife, there would be no cause to be politically incorrect. There would be no cause for current "muckrakers" to write.
Just like the current administration has done with Associated Press, LSM would love to do with all those who participate on this forum. It's been said "in the churchlife there is no democracy". Yes, that's a statement I can agree has been true.
I do believe regardless where the posters and the lurkers meet for fellowship, there is a genuine desire as Christians to hold to a higher standard than secular society. If LSM claim they are not an organization, but part of an organism, the standards and expectations of LSM should be held much higher than echoeing paths of secular society.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

I do believe regardless where the posters and the lurkers meet for fellowship, there is a genuine desire as Christians to hold to a higher standard than secular society. If LSM claim they are not an organization, but part of an organism, the standards and expectations of LSM should be held much higher than echoeing paths of secular society.

Judgment begins at the house of God.

Our destiny, as Christians, is to rule. However it is absurd to think that we are fit for the job if we have the same corruption we see in the present day leaders.

We see what happens to brothers who have a ministry, TC, John Meyers, etc. Do we really think the LRC is any better than the US Govt using the IRS to shut down political organizations?

We see the way the LRC has done a whitewash of their history. Do we really think they are any better than what was done with regards to Bengazi?

We have discussed the abusive way in which members are treated in the LRC. Are they really capable of fixing issues like the backlog in veterans claims?

This is why these issues matter and need to be resolved in the church. If we can't deal with WL and PL then how could we ever deal with corruption in the government or a despot?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is why these issues matter and need to be resolved in the church. If we can't deal with WL and PL then how could we ever deal with corruption in the government or a despot?

Every human leader needs scrutiny and oversight to prevent the abuse of power. Our public leaders supposedly are monitored by the freedom of the press and congressional oversight. These are absolutely essential to limit the abuse of power.

Likewise church leaders also must be under careful scrutiny and wise oversight that the church be preserved blameless. The New Testament devotes an incredible amount of time to identify those characteristics of healthy leaders. Whole books were even written to this end -- I Timothy and Titus. Whole books were also written to expose rotten leaders -- 2 Peter and Jude.

Witness Lee undermined these healthy scriptural checks and balances by introducing the errant doctrine of "deputy authority." Lee's teachings about deputy authority exist no where in the New testament. Not one verse in the Bible justifies the abuses of rotten leaders with claims to "deputy authority." Witness Lee and his minions, however, would introduce these teachings, apparently endorsed by Watchman Nee, whenever scandals such as Daystar or Philip Lee's indiscretions became public.

Using the stories of Noah cursing Ham and Moses marrying a heathen woman, Lee was able to intimidate "the press" into believing that God's judgment would swiftly strike any brother or sister who dared to address crimes at LSM. Just expressing an opinion like Meriam did would cause instant leprosy! For those at LSM who should have provided needed oversight, "covering the nakedness of Noah" translated into a bunch of ostriches burying their heads when confronting lies, theft, fraud, abuse, rape and adultery. Francis Ball actually once boasted of this. He spoke for every one of today's Blended Brothers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every human leader needs scrutiny and oversight to prevent the abuse of power. Our public leaders supposedly are monitored by the freedom of the press and congressional oversight. These are absolutely essential to limit the abuse of power.

3 key legs to democracy, all under attack.

1. Freedom of the press (illegal wiretaps of reporters)
2. Congressional oversight (whitewash of reports)
and
3. Right to form parties (IRS scandal of political groups)

We saw the same thing in the LRC

Awareness story is a good example of the spying that went on in the LRC.
They published their own whitewash reports.
They prohibit anyone from having a ministry (TC and John Meyers for example)

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee undermined these healthy scriptural checks and balances by introducing the errant doctrine of "deputy authority." Lee's teachings about deputy authority exist no where in the New testament. Not one verse in the Bible justifies the abuses of rotten leaders with claims to "deputy authority." Witness Lee and his minions, however, would introduce these teachings, apparently endorsed by Watchman Nee, whenever scandals such as Daystar or Philip Lee's indiscretions became public.

Witness Lee would countenance no peers. His model of "the work" was himself as an apostle with the status of a Paul while his coworkers had the status of a Titus or Timothy who he could give dictates to and expect them to be followed. This practice was propped up with MOTA and deputy authority teachings.

He was the boss of "the work". Period. If you crossed him you were "fired". In some instances this meant coworkers of many years were put out on the street (kicked out of church housing) while their incomes dried up almost instantly.

Of course having no peers and having cultivated no replacement when he died what was the LC system to do? Where was the new MOTA? Solution: Brothers We! Oh now we can have a group of peers. Peers doing what? Repeating Witness Lee messages and policing the LC system to make sure everyone is following along with the LSM dictates. The whole thing is kinda pathetic when you think about it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

He was the boss of "the work". Period. If you crossed him you were "fired". In some instances this meant coworkers of many years were put out on the street (kicked out of church housing) while their incomes dried up almost instantly.

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect tellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect fellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

"Local" administration was the greatest of farces. Even Witness Lee said the administration of local elders includes such things as deciding what time to pray. Imagine that! Talk about important decisions!

The Work, however, trumps all decisions of the elders. Leading workers will coerce the other elders to remove that elder from church housing, or their eldership will be revoked, and new elders will be appointed who will remove that elder from church housing.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect tellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Hence....."WE'RE WITNESS LEE'S COMPANY!"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

It is all part and parcel of the whole "slave of God" gig. If you are unable to live by faith then you have no business being a slave of Jesus Christ. I think He said the birds have nests, the foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is all part and parcel of the whole "slave of God" gig. If you are unable to live by faith then you have no business being a slave of Jesus Christ. I think He said the birds have nests, the foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.

You mean Jesus or the Apostles never had their own team of lawyers to silence critics?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

Titus Chu only duplicated the things done in Anaheim. Since he had appointed all the elders in Cleveland, there is no way any of them would have listened to Anaheim first, and both Lee and the Blendeds knew that.

The church may own the home he now lives in, but Titus Chu owns other homes in Cleveland that the church maintains and keeps stocked with saints. Coupled with outside sources of income from motel investments, required offerings to his own ministry, and his own businesses which thrived with church volunteer labor, Titus has no concerns about income, other than no longer being able to support most of his former workers.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Titus Chu only duplicated the things done in Anaheim. Since he had appointed all the elders in Cleveland, there is no way any of them would have listened to Anaheim first, and both Lee and the Blendeds knew that.

Absolutely and that is why there was so much friction eventually resulting in a division. Titus Chu knew how Witness Lee operated and followed suit only on a smaller scale. Witness Lee served as a figurehead while Titus Chu held the real power and influence in the GLA. Once the figurehead died why would Titus bother to fiddle around with LSM staff except maybe to buy some of their books? Sure he humored them for awhile but anyone on either side who thought they would work well together was living in a dream world! What did he need them for? He's not going to take directives from Witness Lee wannabes 3000 miles away. The division was inevitable.