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Old 12-14-2018, 01:27 PM   #5001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
It would be good if you knew who and what was behind your "collective identity" on the LEFT.
Bro Ohio has discovered that the liberals have changed into the LEFT.

And it's true that parties change. Example : Maybe the republicans were once against slavery, but now they have become the RIGHT. And now they are white nationalists, and white supremacists.

The demmies aren't what they use to be, and neither are the pubbies.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:45 PM   #5002
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Bro Ohio has discovered that the liberals have changed into the LEFT.

And it's true that parties change. Example : Maybe the republicans were once against slavery, but now they have become the RIGHT. And now they are white nationalists, and white supremacists.

The demmies aren't what they use to be, and neither are the pubbies.
I wonder why you have no facts to rebut history, only snarky mockings and insidious claims to deflect.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:45 PM   #5003
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I wonder why you have no facts to rebut history, only snarky mockings and insidious claims to deflect.
Yeah awareness! Mister Ohio was about to tell us who and what is behind the hated LEFT. He claims special insider priveleged KNOWLEDGE. He's gonna tell us who the Puppet Master is and how he controls the LEFT with his wiles. And you interrupted the flow. Go ahead Ohio give us the BIG REVEAL that puts us in our place. Don't defraud us by withholding the knowledge we need. Of course, Paul said that knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Not sure Paul would approve. But you probably know that too. So don't let awareness distract you hold forth brother! Feed his sheep!
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:01 PM   #5004
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Meet the ‘Exvangelicals’: Young Christians are fleeing the church for getting in bed with Trump

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/mee...ing-bed-trump/
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:34 AM   #5005
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Meet the ‘Exvangelicals’: Young Christians are fleeing the church for getting in bed with Trump

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/mee...ing-bed-trump/
And they should.

In the church the message must be that Jesus is Lord. Our oneness has nothing to do with your political thoughts, leanings, or how you vote.

If it is shameful for a Christian leader to become a pom pom girl for Trump then it is equally shameful if they did that for Hillary. This demonstrates a complete lack of vision on their part.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:27 AM   #5006
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Here is a quote from the LEFT

“Rudeness can be extremely politically useful. There are arguments to be made over who constitutes a valid target, but when crude obscenity is directed at figures of power, their prestige can be tarnished, even in the eyes of the most reverent of subjects,” wrote Amber A'Lee Frost, a co-host of Chapo Trap House, in an essay for Current Affairs. “Caricature is designed to exaggerate, and therefore make more noticeable, people’s central defining qualities, and can thus be illuminating even at its most indelicate.”
Rudeness? Obscenity? So then President Trump must be the King of the LEFT. Or maybe you and Ohio don't think Trump's rude when he says stuff like "You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever" to Megyn Kelly.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:41 AM   #5007
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Meet the ‘Exvangelicals’: Young Christians are fleeing the church for getting in bed with Trump

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/mee...ing-bed-trump/
Hardcore Trumpers will dismiss this as fake news. Right Ohio?
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:13 AM   #5008
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I wonder why you have no facts to rebut history, only snarky mockings and insidious claims to deflect the facts.
Like I said . . .
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:03 AM   #5009
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One time Democratic Presidential front runner, a total con job, like many of her peers, ran into the Trump Wall of Truth and crashed. As one writer wrote . . .
Quote:
Warren's sins are twofold: she is a shameless cultural appropriator, whose fake claim to native-American ancestry for personal gain has been every bit fraudulent as a high-end art forgery, and outright theft. More egregious, she is the wrong skin color, siphoning 2020 oxygen from the likes of Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, and Michele Obama.

As Howie Carr wrote in the Boston Herald, “What an ignominious end for Harvard Law School’s “first woman of color,” and just because it turned out that Elizabeth Warren’s color was white -- alabaster in fact”.
Once again Trump "baited this basher" into proving her identity. And as PJ Media’s Michael Walsh elaborates on the NY Times Warren hit-piece, partially fingering Donald Trump for Warren’s demise . . .
Quote:
That dastardly Trump, getting the hapless Warren to fall right into his trap! Couldn't she see that simply asserting her native-American identity was enough? That there was no need for DNA tests and all that messy "racial science" when all you had to do was name it and claim it?
Has anyone seen that ever growing list of Trump-bashers who seem to be crashing daily. I have to believe God is still behind the scenes working. Reminds me of God's blessing to Abraham ...
Quote:
I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. -- Gen 12.3
Say what you will about Trump's past failures, but he definitely has blessed Israel.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:03 AM   #5010
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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Rudeness? Obscenity? So then President Trump must be the King of the LEFT. Or maybe you and Ohio don't think Trump's rude when he says stuff like "You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever" to Megyn Kelly.
I think that Trump is very rude and has reaped what he has sown. I also think that many on the left are obsessed with attacking all things Trump, and I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy and fake offense at his rudeness from those that are equally rude.

To my knowledge Melania has not been rude to anyone, doesn't stop them from behaving despicably toward her as well.

Likewise, I am not aware of anything Eric has done to deserve the constant spew of insults he gets.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:11 AM   #5011
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
One time Democratic Presidential front runner, a total con job, like many of her peers, ran into the Trump Wall of Truth and crashed. As one writer wrote . . .
Once again Trump "baited this basher" into proving her identity. And as PJ Media’s Michael Walsh elaborates on the NY Times Warren hit-piece, partially fingering Donald Trump for Warren’s demise . . .
This is true. When she claimed to be a native American it seemed quite believable to me, she appeared to look mixed, and she came from Oklahoma, it seemed reasonable. But the DNA test convicts her on several levels. First, she has less native american blood than the average American, if she can make this claim everyone in the US can. Second, as the representatives of Native Americans has pointed out, that is not the test. To claim to be Native American requires that you were raised in that culture. She made this lie as a way to get into Harvard. In my eyes she has been exposed as a bald faced liar. No respect for her.

Quote:
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Has anyone seen that ever growing list of Trump-bashers who seem to be crashing daily.
No. I have not seen that list. The only "list" I have seen is the number of Trump associates who have resigned, been fired, been indicted, or pled guilty to crimes.

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I have to believe God is still behind the scenes working. Reminds me of God's blessing to Abraham ...
Does not remind me of that at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Say what you will about Trump's past failures, but he definitely has blessed Israel.
Fair enough. Trump has blessed Israel.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:17 AM   #5012
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Okay, you seem to be hung up on me refuting your facts. It's not that I can't refute them, it's that I don't have the will. It seems to be an exercise in futility. But okay, if you insist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
How many times did I tell you that all politicians are liars and crooks. If you make that the standard, there would be no leaders.
But Trump is a liar on steroids. In fact, he's credited with the reason for a new Pinocchio rating. Earning the coveted The Bottomless Pinocchio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Accusing Trump of being a felon is a serious charge. Now you have become a "compulsive liar" too.
Violations of campaign finance law is a felony. Trump's got two of them : Stormy and McDougal. Sorry. No lying there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Perhaps you are finally starting to get the message?
I know. With all the smoke and mirrors it's hard to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
More lies. Has this become your compulsive habit?
I see you've been taking lessons from Trump : accuse others of what you are doing. Now Trump is calling everyone liars, like Cohen and Comey ; and also Pecker. So who's lying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
I really wish you would get your history right. Study the plight of Native Americans and African Americans under the Presidency of Andrew Jackson and the Democratic Party. IF YOU DARE. Read what Jackson did to the Indians. Did you know that not one single Republican ever owned a slave? Both the Northern and the Southern Democrats stood against the emancipation of the Black man in the 13th Amend.
The crimes against Indians and Blacks were NOT committed by "White Man" or "Americans" but the Democrat Party.
This is where it seemed to be an exercise in futility. Your superimposition of your bipolar politics shades your views on history. Since you believe that democrats are bad, and republicans are good, every bad thing in history had to be done by democrats, and every good thing by republicans. I think you're just caught up in confirmation bias and don't recognize it.

As I've pointed out already, that means, that by your bipolar logic, our slaveholding founders must have been democrats. That's how laughable your bipolar view of history is.

And I hate Andrew Jackson. By your bipolar logic that makes me a republican.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
It's bad enough that your facts of history are all wrong, but when you repeat them they become your lies too.
Okay. You've successfully changed the subject from our lying crooked President to me. Good one bro Ohio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Same goes with Israel and the plight of the Palestinians. It is the Iranians who are committing genocide on the Palestinian people. What Hamas has done to the Gaza strip is horrible. Go ask those people who treats them better, Israel of Hamas.
Now you've struck a nerve. Any Christian that supports or excuses what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, is giving Jesus a bad name, and isn't worth the name Christian.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:22 AM   #5013
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Bombshell letter from decorated FBI Supervisory Agent written to District Judge Emmet Sullivan, planning to sentence Michael Flynn on Tuesday, exposes FBI and Mueller corruption, specifically that Andrew McCabe went after Michael Flynn as payback revenge.

Former FBI SSA Robyn Gritz’s Letter To Judge Sullivan in Support Of Flynn

Exerpts of letter:

Quote:
Andrew McCabe: I believe I have a unique inside view of the mannerisms surrounding Andrew McCabe, other FBI Executive Management and Former Director Mueller, as well as the unethical and coercive tactics they use, not to seek the truth, but to coerce pleas or admissions to end the pain, as I call it. They destroy lives for their own agendas instead of seeking the truth for the American people. Candor is something that should be encouraged and used by leadership to have necessary and continued improvement. Under Mueller, it was seen as a threat and viciously opposed by those he pulled up in the chain of command.

I am explaining this because numerous Agents have expressed the need for you to know McCabe’s and Mueller’s pattern of “target and destroy” has been utilized on many others, without regard for policies and laws. I, myself, am a casualty of this reprehensible behavior and I have spoken to well over 150 other FBI individuals who are casualties as well.

Unethical and dishonest investigative tactics: Throughout the last year, I have kept abreast of the revelations surrounding anything related to Mike’s case. I believe, from my years at the FBI and in exposing corruption and discrimination, the circumstances surrounding the targeting, investigation, leaking, and coercion of him to plea are all consistent with the unethical process I and many others have witnessed at the FBI. The charge which Mike Flynn plead to was the result of deception, intimidation, and bias/agenda. Simply, Mike is being branded a convicted felon due to an unethical and dishonest investigation by people who were malicious, vindictive, and corrupt. They wished to silence Mike, like they had once silenced me.

The American people have read the Strzok/Page text messages, the conflicting testimony and lack of candor statements of former Director Comey, the perceived overstepping of the reasonable scope of the Special Prosecutor’s investigation, the extensive unethical, untruthful, and outright illegal behavior of Andrew McCabe, to include slanderous statements against Flynn, and the facts found within FOIA released documents and Congressional testimony. As a former/retired Agent, I have combed through every piece of information regarding Mike’s case, as if I was combing through evidence in the hundreds of cases I have successfully handled while in the FBI.

The publicly reported Brady material alone, in this case, outweighs any statement given by any FBI Agent (we now know at least one FD-302 was changed), Special Prosecutor investigator report, and any other party still aggressively seeking that this case remain and be sentenced as a felony. Quite simply, I cannot see justice being served by branding LtG. Michael Flynn a convicted felon, when the truth is still being revealed while policies, ethics, and laws have been violated by those pursuing this case.

We now know all FBI employees involved in Mike Flynn’s case have either been fired, forced to resign or forced to retire because of their excessive lack of candor, punitive biases, leaking of information, and extensive cover-up of their deeds.
I'm not a prophet, but I predict Judge Emmet Sullivan will overturn Flynn's charges, expose Mueller, and initiate a criminal contempt investigation of Flynn's prosecutors in the case.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:28 PM   #5014
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Has anyone seen that ever growing list of Trump-bashers who seem to be crashing daily.
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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
No. I have not seen that list. The only "list" I have seen is the number of Trump associates who have resigned, been fired, been indicted, or pled guilty to crimes.
Here is that interesting list ...

Trump schadenfreude list

The list is growing daily. Some seem a stretch, others are hard to deny.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:45 PM   #5015
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Violations of campaign finance law is a felony. Trump's got two of them : Stormy and McDougal. Sorry. No lying there.
Sorry, but you've been lied to by the media. They deserve this: Earning the coveted The Bottomless Pinocchio.

Obama faced a fine for Campaign Finance violations. Did he pay it?

John Edwards paid off a scandal just like Trump. He beat the charge easily. All Trump has to prove is that he paid the hush money to protect his reputation. But the media has convinced you that Michael Cohen is an honest witness. Good luck with that.

Wait a minute here. What happened to Russian Collusion? What happened to Obstruction of Justice? What happened to vindication for Comey? You and the Media have been crying foul for two years over that. Muller will find Collusion! Muller will find Obstruction! What happened? Tell me who is lying here?

And after all this -- $50 million and two years of Mueller Witch Hunts -- all they got is Stormy and the Bunny? And Stormy has to pay Trump's legal bills? And Avenatti is broke and discredited? So much for creepy Porn Lawyers. And it was you who told me that 98.6% of Lawyers give the rest of them a bad name. You should know better!

Avenatti 2020, your last hope for redemption, has gone down in flames.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:55 PM   #5016
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Here is that interesting list ...

Trump schadenfreude list

The list is growing daily. Some seem a stretch, others are hard to deny.
Trump's got a lot of tweeting to do to attack everyone on that list ... 10 times harder.

Good. It will keep him busy.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:06 PM   #5017
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Sorry, but you've been lied to by the media.
But the media is not lying to you? How is it that you are so special, getting privileged media all others don't get?
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:00 PM   #5018
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Here is that interesting list ...

Trump schadenfreude list

The list is growing daily. Some seem a stretch, others are hard to deny.
This is an ugly list. Paul says that love does not keep a record of wrongs. This list demonstrates that Trump and His supporters do not have love, it is a hateful list.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:03 PM   #5019
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But the media is not lying to you? How is it that you are so special, getting privileged media all others don't get?
Here's a guy who has studied history, it's only 4 minutes long . . .

D'Souza spars with student over "white privilege"

awareness, you seem to be interested in the plight of Native Americans and African Americans. You owe it to yourself to research the actual facts of history, and not how history has been rewritten to fit an agenda.

This is essentially what I had to do with church history after I left the LC. I read the actual events of church history, so that I could be purged of the leaven of Lee.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:03 PM   #5020
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Wait a minute here What happened to Russian Collusion? What happened to Obstruction of Justice? What happened to vindication for Comey? You and the Media have been crying foul for two years over that. Muller will find Collusion! Muller will find Obstruction! What happened? Tell me who is lying here?.

Mueller details how Roger Stone, who the special counsel notes was in frequent contact with Donald Trump and senior campaign officials, directed Corsi to connect with WikiLeaks about the trove of stolen materials it received from Russia. Corsi subsequently communicated WikiLeaks’ release plan back to Stone, and the Trump campaign built its final message around the email release. That is collusion.

Second, we now know that Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen and former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn have provided evidence to Mueller related to collusion. In Cohen’s sentencing memo, Mueller said that Cohen provided his office with “useful information” on “Russia-related matters core to its investigation.” One of those central elements, according to the Justice Department: “any links and/or coordination” between the Kremlin and Trump campaign figures. Collusion, in other words.

Third, Mueller has found evidence that Trump was compromised by a hostile foreign power during the election. In his plea deal, Cohen revealed that Trump had repeatedly lied to voters about the then-candidate’s financial ties to Russia. While Trump claimed during the campaign to have no business dealings with Russia, he was negotiating a wildly lucrative business deal not simply with Russian businessmen, but also involving with the Kremlin itself. Trump’s team even reportedly tried to bribe Russian President Vladimir Putin by offering him a $50 million penthouse.
Worse, Russia not only knew that Trump was lying, but when investigators first started looking into this deal, the Kremlin helped Trump cover up what really happened. That made Trump doubly compromised: first, because he was eager to get the financial payout and second because Russia had evidence he was lying to the American people—evidence they could have held over Trump by threatening to reveal at any time.

The Cohen conviction is clear evidence that Trump committed a felony. You cannot instruct someone else to commit a felony for you. Doing that makes you equally culpable.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:12 PM   #5021
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This is an ugly list. Paul says that love does not keep a record of wrongs. This list demonstrates that Trump and His supporters do not have love, it is a hateful list.
You asked for the list, then you apply some false Christian standard to the list, claiming that Trump and his followers "do not have love." Seriously?

This is not an "ugly" list. If your thumb hurts every time you hit it with a hammer, is it now "ugly" to write yourself a note "hold nail with needle nose pliers when hammering."

I don't know who prepared the list, but to claim guilt by association on Trump and all Trump supporters is way out of character for you. I read your post here and thought at first that zeek wrote it.

Shouldn't we learn from history? Is politics now the church? Is it also ugly for the Bible to record the sins of Abraham, David, Paul, or Judas?
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:25 PM   #5022
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The Cohen conviction is clear evidence that Trump committed a felony. You cannot instruct someone else to commit a felony for you. Doing that makes you equally culpable.
Seriously?

Michael Cohen is the lawyer here. He is the expert on the law. He went to law school. Trump is a business man. Trump hires lawyers because they know the law. Wiki says about Cohen, "His uncle is a family practitioner who gave medical aid to members of the Lucchese crime family. Before joining the Trump Organization, Cohen had purchased several homes in Trump's buildings. A 2017 New York Times article reported that Cohen is known for having "a penchant for luxury"; he was married at The Pierre, drove a Porsche while attending college, and once owned a Bentley."

Sounds to me like plain old greed got the best of Cohen. Like Manafort, Cohen didn't pay his taxes. Name me one lawyer who illegally records conversations with his client. Cohen is a bad actor. Muller used him, and spit him out.

Now you are telling us that Trump is guilty because his lawyer broke the law.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:37 PM   #5023
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You asked for the list, then you apply some false Christian standard to the list, claiming that Trump and his followers "do not have love." Seriously?

This is not an "ugly" list. If your thumb hurts every time you hit it with a hammer, is it now "ugly" to write yourself a note "hold nail with needle nose pliers when hammering."

I don't know who prepared the list, but to claim guilt by association on Trump and all Trump supporters is way out of character for you. I read your post here and thought at first that zeek wrote it.

Shouldn't we learn from history? Is politics now the church? Is it also ugly for the Bible to record the sins of Abraham, David, Paul, or Judas?

Look at the list. Most people on it look like they received retribution from either Trump supporters, or Trump cronies because they said some word that Trump didn't like.


Some are absurd. Seriously, Bill Cosby's judgement came on him because he said a bad word about Trump? Absurd.


Others are mean. Someone says a word contrary to Trump and all of a sudden they dig up some "allegation" that is 50 years old. That is worse than what they did to Kavanaugh.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:44 PM   #5024
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Seriously?

Michael Cohen is the lawyer here. He is the expert on the law. He went to law school. Trump is a business man. Trump hires lawyers because they know the law. Wiki says about Cohen, "His uncle is a family practitioner who gave medical aid to members of the Lucchese crime family. Before joining the Trump Organization, Cohen had purchased several homes in Trump's buildings. A 2017 New York Times article reported that Cohen is known for having "a penchant for luxury"; he was married at The Pierre, drove a Porsche while attending college, and once owned a Bentley."

Sounds to me like plain old greed got the best of Cohen. Like Manafort, Cohen didn't pay his taxes. Name me one lawyer who illegally records conversations with his client. Cohen is a bad actor. Muller used him, and spit him out.

Now you are telling us that Trump is guilty because his lawyer broke the law.

Yes, seriously. If the "Don" orders a hit, he cannot then claim, hey my hit man was trained by the US military and was an expert. You cannot direct an employee to commit a crime, and then pretend to not be responsible or know about it.


A jury is now going to have to decide if Trump's decision to hide this right before the election was to protect his family, his business, or his political ambition. Cohen's testimony, the Enquirer's testimony and the timeline all would move me to see this as a crime. The many falsehoods spoken by Trump would definitely damage his credibility to me.


I cannot possibly believe that Cohen and the National Enquirer would do this without Trump being a knowing beneficiary.


The fact that Cohen was a lawyer ("an expert of the law") eliminates any pretense of "oops, my mistake, didn't know".
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:58 PM   #5025
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Look at the list. Most people on it look like they received retribution from either Trump supporters, or Trump cronies because they said some word that Trump didn't like.
I saw them as reaping what they sowed, yet what they sowed was hidden from sight, so they often escaped the reaper, that is, until they crossed the line and bashed Trump.

How else explain it? Read the list. If conservatives decide not to support a certain entertainer, is that really "retribution?"
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:09 PM   #5026
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Here's a guy who has studied history, it's only 4 minutes long . . .

D'Souza spars with student over "white privilege"
Is that where you get your inside infomation? D'Souza? That explains it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
awareness, you seem to be interested in the plight of Native Americans and African Americans. You owe it to yourself to research the actual facts of history, and not how history has been rewritten to fit an agenda.
It's not like I don't know that the slave states were democrats. I realized that the demmies were bad. And not great today either.

But now, today, the slaves states are mostly republican.

I saw that happen to my extended family. Back before they were driven out of between the rivers -- by JFK, btw -- they were democrats. Now they're all Fox News republicans.

I know Kentucky didn't secede from the union, but they sure had plenty of Jim Crow laws, and Black Code laws, back when they were democrats. Now they're republicans that don't like blacks. The democrats today? Not so much.

By the way, you've been insulting my ancestors. My daddy was a democrat. But would have switched over president Blackenstein.

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This is essentially what I had to do with church history after I left the LC. I read the actual events of church history, so that I could be purged of the leaven of Lee.
I've been repeatedly impressed with your study of recent church history, other than that of Lee, or even of Miller's Church History, that Lee thought a lot of.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:13 PM   #5027
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I saw them as reaping what they sowed, yet what they sowed was hidden from sight, so they often escaped the reaper, that is, until they crossed the line and bashed Trump.

How else explain it? Read the list. If conservatives decide not to support a certain entertainer, is that really "retribution?"

Reap what they sowed? I thought this was a country where you had the right to have your own opinion about the leaders (ie democratically elected representatives). Now that becomes "reaping what they sowed" if they disagree with the elected official? When did the US become Nazi Germany?
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:17 PM   #5028
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Yes, seriously. If the "Don" orders a hit, he cannot then claim, hey my hit man was trained by the US military and was an expert. You cannot direct an employee to commit a crime, and then pretend to not be responsible or know about it.
Terrible example. Far more people have died as a result of the Clintonistas. Name me one person who has died suspiciously or disappeared because of Trump. I could post lists of suspicious Clinton deaths, but obviously "lists" don't work well here.

Lawyers like Cohen are supposed to abide by the law. I guess that's too difficult to understand.

Comparing Trump to a mafia Don is way out of line, but understandable, knowing today's media climate.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:27 PM   #5029
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It's not like I don't know that the slave states were democrats. I realized that the demmies were bad. And not great today either.

But now, today, the slaves states are mostly republican.

The issue is that the leaders are afraid to speak the truth. The Democrats appeal to the bottom two thirds of the country, but it is a major disinformation campaign. For the last 100 years they have been doing their best to keep the US from going Socialist. We are run by big business and corporate interests, so the Democrats are there to placate the masses and keep them from going socialist. Obamacare is a socialist agenda (no accident that it is being undone). Bernie is a socialist agenda (look at how the Democrats stabbed him in the back). Ocasio is a socialist. The socialists have been gaining ground inch by hard fought inch. It is amazing how little progress they have made given the superficial appearance of a democracy. (If the poorest 2/3 knew what was going on they would vote for a socialist agenda).


1. Turn off the poorest people from voting.
2. Destroy public education with the wonderfully coined "no child left behind" policy.

3. Arrest as many poor as possible, giving them felonies and disqualifying them from voting.

4. Allow unlimited campaign funds so that the rich have a bigger voice
and
5. lie, lie, lie.


Hillary Clinton knows exactly what the deal is.


But the lies are equally on the Republicans side. Trump is all gung ho for a wall and yet has an undocumented worker making his bed. Doesn't seem to make sense till you really understand the meaning of the wall: Don't complain about how I am treating you or else I'll deport you.


It is major corporations and Republican backers that bring in the illegal aliens to "do the jobs Americans don't want to do". But they need strict immigration laws to prevent these workers from thinking they have rights.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:33 PM   #5030
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Terrible example. Far more people have died as a result of the Clintonistas. Name me one person who has died suspiciously or disappeared because of Trump. I could post lists of suspicious Clinton deaths, but obviously "lists" don't work well here.

Lawyers like Cohen are supposed to abide by the law. I guess that's too difficult to understand.

Comparing Trump to a mafia Don is way out of line, but understandable, knowing today's media climate.
I was making fun of his being called "the Don". Once again you are under the misguided thought that if the Clinton's killed 10 people then it is OK for Trump to kill one person.


We don't measure crimes by "are they better or worse than the Clinton's crimes".
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:25 AM   #5031
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I was making fun of his being called "the Don". Once again you are under the misguided thought that if the Clinton's killed 10 people then it is OK for Trump to kill one person.

We don't measure crimes by "are they better or worse than the Clinton's crimes".
That's right. Clinton's get away with murder, and no one calls them a Crime Family. But all their people go after Trump, and the Media names him a "Don," and it becomes a joke, of sorts. Didn't someone say that if we repeat a big lie often enough, people will believe it?
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:37 AM   #5032
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The issue is that the leaders are afraid to speak the truth. The Democrats appeal to the bottom two thirds of the country, but it is a major disinformation campaign. For the last 100 years they have been doing their best to keep the US from going Socialist. We are run by big business and corporate interests, so the Democrats are there to placate the masses and keep them from going socialist. Obamacare is a socialist agenda (no accident that it is being undone). Bernie is a socialist agenda (look at how the Democrats stabbed him in the back). Ocasio is a socialist. The socialists have been gaining ground inch by hard fought inch. It is amazing how little progress they have made given the superficial appearance of a democracy. (If the poorest 2/3 knew what was going on they would vote for a socialist agenda).
.
Hitler was a Socialist. He led the National Socialist Workers Party.

Give me one example where Socialism has helped people? And don't tell me Scandinavia, because they are all Capitalistic countries with Social programs.

Give me one example where Socialism did not become a dictatorship?

Capitalism does have rich and poor, Socialism only has poor. Dirt poor. Read your history. And the poor in the US are the richest "poor" n the world.
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:46 AM   #5033
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Is that where you get your inside infomation? D'Souza? That explains it.

It's not like I don't know that the slave states were democrats. I realized that the demmies were bad. And not great today either.

But now, today, the slaves states are mostly republican.

I saw that happen to my extended family. Back before they were driven out of between the rivers -- by JFK, btw -- they were democrats. Now they're all Fox News republicans.
You should study the causes. It's not Fox News. JFK Democrats are now Republicans. Perhaps they discovered who the Dems really were.

You write off D'Sousa, yet can't refute his message. That's telling.

Reminds me of people who reject the Bible cause it's "all lies."
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:17 AM   #5034
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That's right. Clinton's get away with murder, and no one calls them a Crime Family.

Not true. You call them a crime family and you are somebody. Don't let anyone tell you that you are a no one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
But all their people go after Trump, and the Media names him a "Don," and it becomes a joke, of sorts. Didn't someone say that if we repeat a big lie often enough, people will believe it?

"The Donald" was a very big media whore from his youth. The term "the Don" was given to him by his friends -- most notably Howard Stern. Blame Trump and his friends.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:23 AM   #5035
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Hitler was a Socialist.

Bernie Madoff was a capitalist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
He led the National Socialist Workers Party.

Give me one example where Socialism has helped people? .

1. Police Department -- socialist program.
2. Fire department -- socialist program
3. Public school -- socialist program
4. Medicare and Medicaid -- socialist program
5. Highway system -- socialist program
6. Mass transit -- socialist program
7. Public TV -- socialist program (this includes the local TV stations that every American can broadcast on)






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And don't tell me Scandinavia, because they are all Capitalistic countries with Social programs.

That is idiotic. That is like saying "tell me one time when the brakes helped people and don't tell me cars because they have an accelerator".


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Give me one example where Socialism did not become a dictatorship?

Capitalism does have rich and poor, Socialism only has poor. Dirt poor. Read your history. And the poor in the US are the richest "poor" n the world.

Once again this is clueless. Capitalism is a very important component of an economy, but a pure capitalist society without any socialist programs is inhumane. I am not for a "pure socialist" program, nor am I for a "pure capitalist" system.


I see a need for a little of each -- capitalism is critical for the stock market and business. Socialism is critical to make sure we don't worship the almighty dollar but rather keep in mind what the priorities of any society is which is its people. Finally, there still needs to be some "communism". Public parks, and other things need to be held in common by all.


If you understand that then you can see there isn't a single successful first world nation that doesn't have socialist programs.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:03 AM   #5036
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You write off D'Sousa, yet can't refute his message. That's telling.
Yeah, telling that he's a convicted felon, and a dark skinned immigrant version of Ann Coulter, and a conspiracy theorist.

And is prolly where you get your crazy conspiracies like, Obama is a Muslim, or Moooooslem, and was born in Kenya.
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:02 AM   #5037
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You should study the causes. It's not Fox News. JFK Democrats are now Republicans. Perhaps they discovered who the Dems really were.

You write off D'Sousa, yet can't refute his message. That's telling.

Reminds me of people who reject the Bible cause it's "all lies."
D'Sousa's message? That includes mocking the survivors of the Parkland High School mass shooting. Why do you like vicious people Mister Ohio? What does that say about you?
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:47 AM   #5038
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D'Sousa's message? That includes mocking the survivors of the Parkland High School mass shooting. Why do you like vicious people Mister Ohio? What does that say about you?
At least now I understand that your hatred is not just directed at Trump, but any and all conservatives, including myself.

Classic virtue signaling, perfected by zeek.

Are you not vicious for supporting abortion? That's real "vicious," not just some D'Sousa tease. Your support for abortion is worst than the Holocaust! What does that say about you?
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:05 AM   #5039
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At least now I understand that your hatred is not just directed at Trump, but any and all conservatives, including myself.

Classic virtue signaling, perfected by zeek.

Are you not vicious for supporting abortion? That's real "vicious," not just some D'Sousa tease. Your support for abortion is worst than the Holocaust! What does that say about you?
I challenge you to look on this thread or any other ones on this entire website and find where I have supported abortion.
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:14 AM   #5040
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I challenge you to look on this thread or any other ones on this entire website and find where I have supported abortion.
Easy. You support everyone who supports abortion. You oppose everyone who might oppose it. You are an accomplice. You cannot hide.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:34 AM   #5041
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Duplicate post
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:38 AM   #5042
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Easy. You support everyone who supports abortion. You oppose everyone who might oppose it. You are an accomplice. You cannot hide.
Let's see who's hiding. My name is Ken Gemmer. What's yours?
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:58 PM   #5043
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Yeah, telling that he's a convicted felon, and a dark skinned immigrant version of Ann Coulter, and a conspiracy theorist.

And is prolly where you get your crazy conspiracies like, Obama is a Muslim, or Moooooslem, and was born in Kenya.
If the facts of history support my comments, why do you dismiss them as "crazy conspiracies?" Then who is "crazy?"

But I'll take your bait this time concerning Obama. His father was a Muslam. I don't know where Obama was born, but Documents Experts have proven that both his Birth Certificate and Selective Service papers are frauds. Sorry if this truth is offensive to you.

Back to American history. Dinish D'Sousa is not a convicted felon, and has no record. It is your own racial prejudice that denigrates him as a "dark skinned immigrant." Sounds racist and xenophobic to me.

Since you reject historians who are immigrant men of color, here is another who is an American woman of color, providing indicting evidence about the Democrats . . .

The Inconvenient Truth about the Democratic Party
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:53 PM   #5044
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If the facts of history support my comments, why do you dismiss them as "crazy conspiracies?" Then who is "crazy?"
Good question. But your conspiracies aren't facts of history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
But I'll take your bait this time concerning Obama. His father was a Muslam. I don't know where Obama was born, but Documents Experts have proven that both his Birth Certificate and Selective Service papers are frauds. Sorry if this truth is offensive to you.
So like Trump you're a birther. But Trump failed to prove it. And I suspect your "experts" failed as well. Seems the truth is "for some reason" offensive to you.

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Dinish D'Sousa is not a convicted felon, and has no record.
Have you forgotten that we've got Wiki :

"On May 20, 2014 D'Souza pleaded guilty to one felony count of making illegal contributions in the names of others.[152] On September 23, 2014, the court sentenced D'Souza to five years probation, eight months in a halfway house (referred to as a "community confinement center") and a $30,000 fine."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh...on,_and_pardon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
It is your own racial prejudice that denigrates him as a "dark skinned immigrant." Sounds racist and xenophobic to me.
Precisely. I wanted to you to speak out against it. That means you are against Trump's racist and xenophobic immigration policies. I'm glad you agree that racism and xenophobia are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Since you reject historians who are immigrant men of color, here is another who is an American woman of color, providing indicting evidence about the Democrats . . .

The Inconvenient Truth about the Democratic Party
My answer to the opening question : "When you think of racial equality and civil rights, which party comes to mind? is, Republican.

Why? because what I see out of the parties today. I didn't live in the 19th century. I go by what I see today.
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:31 PM   #5045
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Good question. But your conspiracies aren't facts of history.


So like Trump you're a birther. But Trump failed to prove it. And I suspect your "experts" failed as well. Seems the truth is "for some reason" offensive to you.


Have you forgotten that we've got Wiki :

"On May 20, 2014 D'Souza pleaded guilty to one felony count of making illegal contributions in the names of others.[152] On September 23, 2014, the court sentenced D'Souza to five years probation, eight months in a halfway house (referred to as a "community confinement center") and a $30,000 fine."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh...on,_and_pardon


Precisely. I wanted to you to speak out against it. That means you are against Trump's racist and xenophobic immigration policies. I'm glad you agree that racism and xenophobia are wrong.


My answer to the opening question : "When you think of racial equality and civil rights, which party comes to mind? is, Republican.

Why? because what I see out of the parties today. I didn't live in the 19th century. I go by what I see today.
D'Souza is a wily provocateur and now Trump apologist who weaponizes the historical reversals of the Democratic and Republican parties over time in the service of Trumpism. And why not? Trump pardoned him after he pleaded guilty for a felony.

If you think that Clinton and the Republican Congress put an end to welfare as we know it in the 90s D'Souza says you've got another think coming. His goal is "to complete Abraham Lincoln's agenda of shutting down the Democratic plantation which keeps people of color in bondage." Translation: He would deny people of color any kind of public benefits.

D'Souza is a master of falsehoods, rhetorical sleight-of-hand, goalpost shifting and other bad faith arguments capable of baffling the average liberal with his non-stop BS. D'Souza is a bit like what Lying Donald would be if he had 40 more IQ points was capable of reading college-level history books.
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:45 PM   #5046
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If Trump shuts down the government this weekend will he play golf while secret service service agents guard him without pay?
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:56 PM   #5047
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If Trump shuts down the government this weekend will he play golf while secret service service agents guard him without pay?

Secret Service is exempt.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:06 PM   #5048
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Secret Service is exempt.
From what I gather they aren't.
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:11 AM   #5049
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From what I gather they aren't.
They are required to stay on the job, they have to wait to get paid though. So they aren't furloughed, they continue to work and they will get paid for that work once the govt is back up and running.


For example, the U.S. Secret Service agents protecting Drumpf and his family would not be paid during a shutdown. Transportation Security Agency personnel working at airports through the holiday season would also stay on the job during a shutdown, but they’d also have to wait to get paid.
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Old 12-18-2018, 07:31 PM   #5050
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Some are predicting Trump will resign within a month.


Jan 18?


The idea is that he can use his agreement to resign as leverage to avoid prosecution. So although he is exempt as President his son and daughter are not. That prosecution can probably start within the next month after this last court victory getting the subpoena of a foreign corporation. If Trump were to pardon his own family there would be riots in the street, the Republican party would be terrified of that prospect. They would get crushed in the election. Besides he will need their good will to get a pardon for himself.


Although it is speculation as to what information they will get from this mysterious corporation, what isn't speculation is that it has been proven conclusively to several courts to be relevant to the case concerning colusion, and that this is a corporation in a country that does not already have an agreement with the US to provide these subpoenas without all this legal battle -- ie Russia. Therefore Mueller must have provided sufficient evidence that they will find proof of fraud or collusion with either the Trump campaign or the Trump organization. Either way Don Jr. and Ivanka would be squarely in the cross hairs of Mueller.


Also they have made this personal -- Flynn's attacks on the FBI, Fox news attack on Mueller, and Trump's continued "no collusion" have made this personal for Mueller.
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Old 12-19-2018, 05:51 AM   #5051
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Time for Trump to give his "checkers" speech.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:53 PM   #5052
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Where have all the generals gone? Now General Mattis is quitting the Trump administration in protest after Trump disregarded his advice and announced pulling the troops out of Syria prematurely. Like when Trump sent troops to the Mexican border he is once again playing politics with America's military. The generals chose to leave because no one with integrity can work for Donald Trump.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:34 AM   #5053
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Where have all the generals gone? Now General Mattis is quitting the Trump administration in protest after Trump disregarded his advice and announced pulling the troops out of Syria prematurely. Like when Trump sent troops to the Mexican border he is once again playing politics with America's military. The generals chose to leave because no one with integrity can work for Donald Trump.
This is why poll numbers of 38% are so negative. It is difficult to think that Trump actually represents the will of the American people. But at least Putin was happy with this decision.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:16 PM   #5054
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This is why poll numbers of 38% are so negative. It is difficult to think that Trump actually represents the will of the American people. But at least Putin was happy with this decision.
Mattis’s resignation led to a rare rebuke from Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader: “I am particularly distressed that he is resigning due to sharp differences with the president on these and other key aspects of America’s global leadership.”
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:19 PM   #5055
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Mattis’s resignation led to a rare rebuke from Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader: “I am particularly distressed that he is resigning due to sharp differences with the president on these and other key aspects of America’s global leadership.”
Mattis resigned in displeasure with Trump but Trump again made Putin happy. This episode sows where Trump's loyalties lie.

We began to learn what hold Russian President Vladimir Putin has over Trump. Thus, Trump himself repeatedly stated since entering the presidential race in June 2015 that he had no business in Russia and no interactions with representatives of Russia.

It now turns out that Putin knew what the American people didn’t, namely that Donald Trump was throughout the 2016 presidential primary campaign secretly negotiating to build a huge and lucrative hotel in Moscow, which required the personal support of Vladimir Putin.

The fact that Putin knew about Trump’s secret dealings, while the American people didn’t, meant that if Trump didn’t do what Russia wanted, Russia could expose Trump’s lies and so bring him down.


And now this:

"Putin Welcomes U.S. Withdrawal From Syria as ‘Correct’"

The decision has been criticized, even among Republicans, as abandoning Kurdish allies in the face of a hostile Turkey and a still dangerous Islamic State, as well as leaving Syria open territory for the geopolitical ambitions of Russia and Iran.

Mr. Putin reiterated the Kremlin position that American forces have no legal right to be in Syria, in that they were neither invited by Damascus, as the Russian forces were, nor authorized by the United Nations Security Council. Trump's announcement is a big geopolitical win for Putin.

sources NYT and Forbes
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:08 PM   #5056
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Mattis resigned in displeasure with Trump but Trump again made Putin happy. This episode sows where Trump's loyalties lie.

We began to learn what hold Russian President Vladimir Putin has over Trump. Thus, Trump himself repeatedly stated since entering the presidential race in June 2015 that he had no business in Russia and no interactions with representatives of Russia.

It now turns out that Putin knew what the American people didn’t, namely that Donald Trump was throughout the 2016 presidential primary campaign secretly negotiating to build a huge and lucrative hotel in Moscow, which required the personal support of Vladimir Putin.

The fact that Putin knew about Trump’s secret dealings, while the American people didn’t, meant that if Trump didn’t do what Russia wanted, Russia could expose Trump’s lies and so bring him down.


And now this:

"Putin Welcomes U.S. Withdrawal From Syria as ‘Correct’"

The decision has been criticized, even among Republicans, as abandoning Kurdish allies in the face of a hostile Turkey and a still dangerous Islamic State, as well as leaving Syria open territory for the geopolitical ambitions of Russia and Iran.

Mr. Putin reiterated the Kremlin position that American forces have no legal right to be in Syria, in that they were neither invited by Damascus, as the Russian forces were, nor authorized by the United Nations Security Council. Trump's announcement is a big geopolitical win for Putin.

sources NYT and Forbes
Trump is a symptom. Getting rid of him is not a cure. Think how ridiculous this last presidential election was. Trump had no experience, no resume, nothing he had ever done as a govt official. But that was an advantage. Because Clinton did have a long resume there were many people who disliked her. These elections cost $1 billion, when you are talking money on that scale you are also talking about fraud, quid pro quo, etc.

We would never choose a person for an important position like this. And it gets worse when you consider all those "great" people Trump (or any other president) is going to appoint to all the other key positions.

In England you could never be prime minister like this. Likewise in the US why couldn't we do the same thing?

Suppose for a second that we were only able to pick the president based on decisions they had made in the past (similar to SCOTUS). We could ask them and debate them about the decisions they had made and their thought process, but not allow the empty campaign promises that turn out to be lies. No one has a problem doing this with SCOTUS. The voters are asking to be lied to when they are looking for campaign promises.

So then, the requirement if you were to run for president would be to create a resume of all your past experience relevant to being president. What your accomplishments were, tough decisions, etc. If we focused the entire campaign on discussing what the candidate had done and not what they were promising to do this could eliminate those candidates without a resume (like Trump). Then we could get a consumer reports style analysis of the candidates. They might break it down into 40 or 50 criteria and candidates with major holes in their resume would become apparent.
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:05 AM   #5057
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Trump is a symptom. Getting rid of him is not a cure. Think how ridiculous this last presidential election was. Trump had no experience, no resume, nothing he had ever done as a govt official. But that was an advantage. Because Clinton did have a long resume there were many people who disliked her. These elections cost $1 billion, when you are talking money on that scale you are also talking about fraud, quid pro quo, etc.

We would never choose a person for an important position like this. And it gets worse when you consider all those "great" people Trump (or any other president) is going to appoint to all the other key positions.

In England you could never be prime minister like this. Likewise in the US why couldn't we do the same thing?

Suppose for a second that we were only able to pick the president based on decisions they had made in the past (similar to SCOTUS). We could ask them and debate them about the decisions they had made and their thought process, but not allow the empty campaign promises that turn out to be lies. No one has a problem doing this with SCOTUS. The voters are asking to be lied to when they are looking for campaign promises.

So then, the requirement if you were to run for president would be to create a resume of all your past experience relevant to being president. What your accomplishments were, tough decisions, etc. If we focused the entire campaign on discussing what the candidate had done and not what they were promising to do this could eliminate those candidates without a resume (like Trump). Then we could get a consumer reports style analysis of the candidates. They might break it down into 40 or 50 criteria and candidates with major holes in their resume would become apparent.
Well...sure, Trump is symptomatic of larger problems. But, Trump is an immediate problem that cannot be ignored. Two years in, he increasingly stands alone, impulsively causing nearly constant turmoil, with no end in sight — a government shutdown, spiraling scandals, tumbling stock markets, abrupt troop withdrawals, the resignation of his alienated defense secretary. What next? He seems to be spinning out of control.

I hope Trump can be managed until the next election and then voted out of office. But, it isn't clear to me how to do that and that we can divert disaster that long.

For two years the Republicans have had majorities in both houses and haven't done anything to get Trump's wall built. Now that they will lose their majority in the House of Representatives next month "Lindsey Graham Doubles Down On Wall Funding: ‘We’re Not Going To Give In’." The GOP senator vowed to put up a fight for border wall money. Clearly he's just playing politics. Where's he been for the last two years?

Trump said Mexico was going to pay for the wall. So, what's the problem? Why bother congress? Just show us the money. By the way how do the Israelis feel about Trump's unilateral withdrawal from Syria? Just askin'.
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Old 12-23-2018, 03:43 PM   #5058
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Well...sure, Trump is symptomatic of larger problems. But, Trump is an immediate problem that cannot be ignored. Two years in, he increasingly stands alone, impulsively causing nearly constant turmoil, with no end in sight — a government shutdown, spiraling scandals, tumbling stock markets, abrupt troop withdrawals, the resignation of his alienated defense secretary. What next? He seems to be spinning out of control.
He's

Leading By The Seat Of His Diapers
"Trump Has No Idea What a President’s Job Requires, Like Running a Government"

https://www.dcreport.org/2018/12/22/...f-his-diapers/
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:29 AM   #5059
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He's

Leading By The Seat Of His Diapers
"Trump Has No Idea What a President’s Job Requires, Like Running a Government"

https://www.dcreport.org/2018/12/22/...f-his-diapers/
"Trump’s behavior has become so erratic, his lying so persistent, his willingness to fulfill the basic functions of the presidency — like reading briefing books, consulting government experts before making major changes and appointing a competent staff — so absent, his readiness to accommodate Russia and spurn allies so disturbing and his obsession with himself and his ego over all other considerations so consistent, two more years of him in office could pose a real threat to our nation. Vice President Mike Pence could not possibly be worse." Thomas L. Friedman NYT
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:36 AM   #5060
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"Trump’s behavior has become so erratic, his lying so persistent, his willingness to fulfill the basic functions of the presidency — like reading briefing books, consulting government experts before making major changes and appointing a competent staff — so absent, his readiness to accommodate Russia and spurn allies so disturbing and his obsession with himself and his ego over all other considerations so consistent, two more years of him in office could pose a real threat to our nation. Vice President Mike Pence could not possibly be worse." Thomas L. Friedman NYT
Hence my suggestion that there needs to be more of a prerequisite than "born in America".
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:41 AM   #5061
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"Want to keep Christ in Christmas? Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked.Forgive the guilty. Welcome the unwanted. Care for the ill. Love your enemies and do unto others as you would have done unto you."
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Old 12-25-2018, 07:57 AM   #5062
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Hence my suggestion that there needs to be more of a prerequisite than "born in America".
The electoral college was suppose to prevent the election of an unstable and crooked president :

"However, once the Electoral College had been decided on, several delegates (Mason, Butler, Morris, Wilson, and Madison) openly recognized its ability to protect the election process from cabal, corruption, intrigue, and faction. Some delegates, including James Wilson and James Madison, preferred popular election of the executive. Madison acknowledged that while a popular vote would be ideal, it would be difficult to get consensus on the proposal given the prevalence of slavery in the South"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ctoral_College
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Old 12-25-2018, 01:07 PM   #5063
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The electoral college was suppose to prevent the election of an unstable and crooked president :

"However, once the Electoral College had been decided on, several delegates (Mason, Butler, Morris, Wilson, and Madison) openly recognized its ability to protect the election process from cabal, corruption, intrigue, and faction. Some delegates, including James Wilson and James Madison, preferred popular election of the executive. Madison acknowledged that while a popular vote would be ideal, it would be difficult to get consensus on the proposal given the prevalence of slavery in the South"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ctoral_College
The Electoral college has been a complete bust.

Instead, I would argue that our process with SCOTUS is far more effective yet still too political.

We have prerequisites to take college level courses, and we have prerequisites for jobs. Why should president, senator, congressman or governor be any different?
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Old 12-25-2018, 03:16 PM   #5064
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Mnuchin can’t stand up to his boss — and it’s costing you money

Am I the only one? Every time I see this guys name I pronounce it Munchkin, which of course makes me think of the little munchkins afraid of the wicked witch.
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Old 12-25-2018, 06:44 PM   #5065
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'Merry Christmas to refugee babies in mangers': Congress member-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez creates a stir by comparing immigrants at the border to baby Jesus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sus-tweet.html
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:37 AM   #5066
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As China Cracks Down on Churches, Christians Declare ‘We Will Not Forfeit Our Faith’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/25/w...d=165251391226
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:05 PM   #5067
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As China Cracks Down on Churches, Christians Declare ‘We Will Not Forfeit Our Faith’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/25/w...d=165251391226
China is just being smart. They've seen civil wars and revolutions on grand scales, resulting in record breaking numbers of deaths, resulting from Bible based cults.

In the 19th century, for example, as a result of Christian missionaries invading China, they suffered one of the all time deaths tolls, from converts, forming Bible based cults - or "xie jiao," “evil cult," see the Taiping Rebellion.

And recently, springing out of Witness Lee's shouters, Eastern Lightning.

As an aside here, in looking into these matters, I ran across this :
"In The Church of Almighty God, the Bible is accepted as the holy scripture for the Age of Law and the Age of Grace, although it is argued that "recorded by human beings, it contains messages from God and some truthful insights, which are helpful to know God's work in the Age of Law and the Age of Grace, but it also carries many human errors."[34] In our time, the church believes that we find a safer guide in the utterances of Almighty God [Yang Xiangbin]."
Sounds like Lee to me, except not "Almighty God," but Minister of the Age. Same. Same.

In court, Lee argued that as a result of branding the local church a cult, both Nee's and Lee's followers in China were being persecuted.

Given the history in China, the cult of Nee and Lee should be persecuted, and eliminated.

China is only being justifiably smart.
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Old 12-27-2018, 07:20 AM   #5068
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China is just being smart. They've seen civil wars and revolutions on grand scales, resulting in record breaking numbers of deaths, resulting from Bible based cults.

In the 19th century, for example, as a result of Christian missionaries invading China, they suffered one of the all time deaths tolls, from converts, forming Bible based cults - or "xie jiao," “evil cult," see the Taiping Rebellion.

And recently, springing out of Witness Lee's shouters, Eastern Lightning.

As an aside here, in looking into these matters, I ran across this :
"In The Church of Almighty God, the Bible is accepted as the holy scripture for the Age of Law and the Age of Grace, although it is argued that "recorded by human beings, it contains messages from God and some truthful insights, which are helpful to know God's work in the Age of Law and the Age of Grace, but it also carries many human errors."[34] In our time, the church believes that we find a safer guide in the utterances of Almighty God [Yang Xiangbin]."
Sounds like Lee to me, except not "Almighty God," but Minister of the Age. Same. Same.

In court, Lee argued that as a result of branding the local church a cult, both Nee's and Lee's followers in China were being persecuted.

Given the history in China, the cult of Nee and Lee should be persecuted, and eliminated.

China is only being justifiably smart.
So you approve of China's denial of religious liberty. Interesting. Apparently to you the Chinese are unworthy of 1st amendment religious freedom. Why?
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:56 AM   #5069
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So you approve of China's denial of religious liberty. Interesting. Apparently to you the Chinese are unworthy of 1st amendment religious freedom. Why?
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Jesus: "Resist not evil."

So I guess, according to Jesus, we and China should allow cults like Nee and Lee to go on, even if, in China's case, it causes millions of deaths. Jesus was an enabler. Then why, "I came to bring a sword?" So maybe Jesus likes cults.
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Old 12-28-2018, 10:27 AM   #5070
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“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Jesus: "Resist not evil."

So I guess, according to Jesus, we and China should allow cults like Nee and Lee to go on, even if, in China's case, it causes millions of deaths. Jesus was an enabler. Then why, "I came to bring a sword?" So maybe Jesus likes cults.
Is misquoting the Bible your specialty? James and Peter both tell us to resist the devil, so reducing Jesus word to not resist an evil person to simply not resist evil is clearly not supported by the NT.

Jesus word is a contrasting strategy to "an eye for an eye". It is the equivalent to spiritual Judo. An eye for an eye leads to a stalemate and is a lose lose strategy. Agreeing with your adversary, going with them, giving them your coat, might be a "win lose" strategy but it might also result in you winning over your adversary and gaining an ally. It is similar to the strategy we adopted after WWII to rebuild Europe and Japan, winning allies, which in turn helped the US in many ways.
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Old 12-29-2018, 06:14 AM   #5071
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“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Jesus: "Resist not evil."

So I guess, according to Jesus, we and China should allow cults like Nee and Lee to go on, even if, in China's case, it causes millions of deaths. Jesus was an enabler. Then why, "I came to bring a sword?" So maybe Jesus likes cults.
You didn't answer the question. You maintain your right to practice any faith you choose or no faith at all. Why wouldn't you grant that freedom to everyone else?

The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution begins "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Why shouldn't that law be applied throughout the world including China?

You blame religion for millions of deaths in China. The U.S. while not free from religious conflict has generally been able to allow its people to practice whatever religion they choose as long as they don't discriminate against or excessively burden or become violent toward others in the name of their religious belief. Why can't China do the same?
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:03 PM   #5072
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The cherry on top of "Deficit hawk" Paul Ryan's proud legacy?
"Federal Deficit jumps 17 Percent As Tax Cuts Eat Into Government Revenue"

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/16/65779...LhJmSTwwv5DeTc
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Old 12-29-2018, 03:31 PM   #5073
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You didn't answer the question. You maintain your right to practice any faith you choose or no faith at all. Why wouldn't you grant that freedom to everyone else?
Don't get carried away. Unbunch yer knickers. You know I support freedom.

I think the vitriol of my disappointment in myself for joining Lee's cult was bubbling up from deep in my subconscious and it got the best of me.

Cults are stubborn things. Squash them here, and they pop up over there.

China don't have our history. They don't have our Declaration of Independence, nor our constitution, caused by historical events of the west, not the east.

Their history is that cults, of the Christian sort, have caused civil wars, and costly civil unrest and tragic calamities. Can you blame them for not wanting them? Atheism may not have much to do with it.

However, their draconian methods for stopping them won't work. The only method that holds any hope is classes in cults for the young. There are colleges that offer such classes. Just not enough. And prolly none in China.

However, I could be wrong. China is presently developing a wide surveillance system of all their citizens. They may very well get control of cults by draconian methods. They may even squash out the Nee and Lee cults. Let's hope.

Meanwhile, here in America, we'll never get control of cults. Our freedom of religion ends up being cult enabling. That makes us a cult magnet, for such as Lee. America : "China, we'll take your cults. Calling all cults. Cult's R Us." Have you seen the size of Scientology in Clearwater? They're legal ... hahahaha. That doesn't mean we should like them. They're damaging our children.

I guess cults are the price of religious freedom, even while, ironically, they rob people of freedom.
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Old 12-29-2018, 05:33 PM   #5074
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China don't have our history. They don't have our Declaration of Independence, nor our constitution, caused by historical events of the west, not the east.
The problem with the Declaration of Independence and "We hold these truths to be self evident" is that this was written by some very smart men, and unfortunately as we can easily see these truths are not self evident to those who are a little less smart.

Even Awareness, when he gets his knickers all bunched up, demonstrates this. He is like that dog on Up that got distracted by squirrels. All you have to do is say "cult" and Awareness has thrown everything he claims to stand for out the window.
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:00 PM   #5075
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Even Awareness, when he gets his knickers all bunched up, demonstrates this. He is like that dog on Up that got distracted by squirrels. All you have to do is say "cult" and Awareness has thrown everything he claims to stand for out the window.
Once bit, twice shy.
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:15 PM   #5076
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Once bit, twice shy.
Weasel response.

What was the "issue" about the LC "cult"?

1. Leader thought he was on a higher plane than everyone else.

2. Leader controlled what everyone else read and said.

Take those two things away and what is the issue? Corruption? Sorry to burst your bubble but the corruption in the LC was hardly anything out of the ordinary for the world or for regimes like China.

So why would you support a dictatorial regime like China, where the leaders give laws that everyone else has to keep (because they think they are on a higher plane than everyone else) and where they control what everyone reads and says?

Just answer the question.
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Old 12-30-2018, 09:19 AM   #5077
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Weasel response.

What was the "issue" about the LC "cult"?

1. Leader thought he was on a higher plane than everyone else.

2. Leader controlled what everyone else read and said.

Take those two things away and what is the issue? Corruption? Sorry to burst your bubble but the corruption in the LC was hardly anything out of the ordinary for the world or for regimes like China.

So why would you support a dictatorial regime like China, where the leaders give laws that everyone else has to keep (because they think they are on a higher plane than everyone else) and where they control what everyone reads and says?

Just answer the question.
Once bit, twice shy. Sorry. Had to say it.

You make a good point ; China can be seen as a cult wiping out all other competing cults ; the atheist cult wins. They already have, btw. I've read that 90% of China's citizens know nothing about anything to do with any religion, and have no interest to do so. They're perchance like those taking the blue pill in the Matrix ; the steak tastes good.

And mind control? They do filter the internet, and what can be found on their nationwide domain. A search, for example, for tiananmen square will find nothing.

I'd have trouble living there before the LC, so certainly not after tasting that China type cultic mind control in the LC. To digress for the moment.
Methinks that China will end up being the leading nation in the world in the future. Me-also-thinks, AI will end up subjecting the whole world to mind control. Bots are doing that on social media right now. There is, and has been, fake news out there. And like Nazi Germany, presently coming from state control, thru Twitter.
We were all idiots for being in the Chinaman's LC cult. You included bro ZNP. So are you expressing the same vitriol that got the better of me?

What was the question again?
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:21 AM   #5078
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We were all idiots for being in the Chinaman's LC cult. You included bro ZNP. So are you expressing the same vitriol that got the better of me?

What was the question again?
I have a different take than you. I feel everything was for a purpose. I feel I grew as a Christian, my faith was tested, and I learned to follow the Lord's leading. The Lord led me into the LC and He led me out.

So no vitriol, simply an awareness of the Chinese government.
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:56 AM
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:29 AM   #5079
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Another thing to change

I think it is unnecessary and even negative that we have a "ticket" for both President and Vice President. Simply have a rule of succession and leave it at that. For example, the "vice president" could become the Cabinet official that had been confirmed by the Senate and "named" as first successor by the President. I can see the value in having the Secretary of State of the Chief of Staff immediately taking the reigns. They have both been fully involved in key decisions. But getting a VP simply to get votes and then sidelining him for the next 4-8 years is negative.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:57 PM   #5080
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The typical Trump supporter has no respect for government employees anyway. What do they care if there's a shutdown?
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:35 PM   #5081
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The typical Trump supporter has no respect for government employees anyway. What do they care if there's a shutdown?
That is ridiculous. There are 2 million federal employees, surely quite a few of them, maybe even 40% are "Trump supporters".

I think the entire argument is much ado over nothing. 5 billion (what Trump is asking for) is about 0.1% of the Federal Budget. To put that into perspective, that is like a family that spends $150,000 a year shutting down over $150.

Now you might feel that this is not a good use of the money. But you cannot deny that Israel has built a wall that does have some use. Likewise, the Democrats could come back with a counter offer, say $1 billion. That would make them appear reasonable. Again, that is similar to my hypothetical family having a battle royal over $30. But it is even less than that. The money will be spent in the US on construction, 40% of the money will return to the Federal govt as taxes.

I did not vote for Trump, but no one can deny that tens of millions of Americans did, and one reason was they wanted this wall built. I see no good reason why the Democrats can't compromise.
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:18 PM   #5082
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That is ridiculous. There are 2 million federal employees, surely quite a few of them, maybe even 40% are "Trump supporters".
But Trump tweeted :
Do the Dems realize that most of the people not getting paid are Democrats?
132K
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:41 PM   #5083
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But Trump tweeted :
Do the Dems realize that most of the people not getting paid are Democrats?
132K
6:06 AM - Dec 27, 2018
Most, as in 60%? Are all Democrats so poor with math? 60% + 40% = 100%.
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:23 AM   #5084
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Of course Trump and Pompeo love this guy Bolsonaro. And he's a big Trump fan. I'm concerned that he's going to destroy what's left of the Amazon rainforest in Brazil one of the world's greatest ecological treasures.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...xt35d9Iqx3-DWg
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Old 01-06-2019, 08:05 AM   #5085
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Of course Trump and Pompeo love this guy Bolsonaro. And he's a big Trump fan. I'm concerned that he's going to destroy what's left of the Amazon rainforest in Brazil one of the world's greatest ecological treasures.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...xt35d9Iqx3-DWg
You forgot to mention genocide bro, of non-Christians.

But he's for saving the pre-born's, so it's okay.
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:24 AM   #5086
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You forgot to mention genocide bro, of non-Christians.

But he's for saving the pre-born's, so it's okay.
Oh, thanks bro. I missed that.
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Old 01-06-2019, 05:22 PM   #5087
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When Trump first announced withdrawal of American troupes from Syria in the middle of December, he said: "They're all coming back and they're coming back now." In his announcement, Mr Trump had also declared that IS had been "defeated". After the president made his announcement on 19 December, US officials said American forces had been given 30 days to leave Syria.

Here's the big surprise. Trump lied...again. The US National Security Adviser John Bolton now says the withdrawal of US troops from Syria depends on certain conditions, in a further indication that the process is being slowed down. On a trip to Israel and Turkey, he said he would seek Turkish assurances that Kurds in northern Syria would be safe. The US also wants to ensure that the remnants of the Islamic State (IS) group are defeated, he added thus contradicting the unfit "Commander-in-Chief who stated that IS had been defeated 19 days ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46775308
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:47 PM   #5088
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When Trump first announced withdrawal of American troupes from Syria in the middle of December, he said: "They're all coming back and they're coming back now." In his announcement, Mr Trump had also declared that IS had been "defeated". After the president made his announcement on 19 December, US officials said American forces had been given 30 days to leave Syria.

Here's the big surprise. Trump lied...again. The US National Security Adviser John Bolton now says the withdrawal of US troops from Syria depends on certain conditions, in a further indication that the process is being slowed down. On a trip to Israel and Turkey, he said he would seek Turkish assurances that Kurds in northern Syria would be safe. The US also wants to ensure that the remnants of the Islamic State (IS) group are defeated, he added thus contradicting the unfit "Commander-in-Chief who stated that IS had been defeated 19 days ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46775308
Apparently cooler minds don't want to give a handout to Putin.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:11 AM   #5089
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Apparently cooler minds don't want to give a handout to Putin.
No doubt. I can certainly understand if our Christian friends on this forum no longer wish to argue in defense of career con-man and pathological liar Donald Trump. They can't help but see he is so clearly unfit for the office of POTUS.

I understand why they were loath to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016. The political process that gave us a choice between Trump and Clinton for president was clearly sick.

But now that the evidence shows that Trump accepted money from foreign governments, is using his the presidency to promote his businesses after hiding his personal finances from the American people, and how he exhibits dangerously erratic behavior nearly everyday in the White House, they can no longer support the man. And I applaud them for this.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:44 AM   #5090
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No doubt. I can certainly understand if our Christian friends on this forum no longer wish to argue in defense of career con-man and pathological liar Donald Trump. They can't help but see he is so clearly unfit for the office of POTUS.
Fox didn't get that memo.

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Originally Posted by zeek
I understand why they were loath to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016. The political process that gave us a choice between Trump and Clinton for president was clearly sick.
They failed to listen to David Barton (Wallbuilders), who convinced Evangelicals that America was founded by white Christian MEN ; and that should continue to be so today.

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Originally Posted by zeek
But now that the evidence shows that Trump accepted money from foreign governments, is using his the presidency to promote his businesses after hiding his personal finances from the American people, and how he exhibits dangerously erratic behavior nearly everyday in the White House, they can no longer support the man. And I applaud them for this.
Don't count your chickens. Seems Trump could shoot someone on 5th Ave, and, his ratings would go up.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:31 AM   #5091
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Fox didn't get that memo.
Is Fox on this forum? Where?

Quote:
They failed to listen to David Barton (Wallbuilders), who convinced Evangelicals that America was founded by white Christian MEN ; and that should continue to be so today.
Relevance?


Quote:
Don't count your chickens. Seems Trump could shoot someone on 5th Ave, and, his ratings would go up.
Like eggs to a vegan.
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Old 01-07-2019, 06:54 PM   #5092
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They've thrown in the towel.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:07 AM   #5093
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They've thrown in the towel.
Well they've been arguing in support of Trump who has partially shut down the government in service of his temper tantrum and is expected to lie about there being a national emergency at the southern border despite the fact that Chris Wallace exposed Sarah Huckabee's lies on the Fox news channel of all things. So perhaps our conservative friends are embarrassed.
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:14 AM   #5094
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Well they've been arguing in support of Trump who has partially shut down the government in service of his temper tantrum and is expected to lie about there being a national emergency at the southern border despite the fact that Chris Wallace exposed Sarah Huckabee's lies on the Fox news channel of all things. So perhaps our conservative friends are embarrassed.
As our friends should be. They've been fooled before. And I'm sure we've all heard:
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.” - Dubya
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:29 PM   #5095
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The cost of violence in the US is estimated to be 3.3% of GDP.

80% of gun violence is gang related. Therefore I will consider that 50% of this cost of violence is gang related, this seems like a very safe estimate.

US GDP is $19 Trillion. I will round this to 20 trillion because it is easier to work with and because I am looking for an average over the next 10 years and US GDP has been rising year after year.

So then 3.3% is $660 billion. 50% of that is $330 billion.

13% of gang violence is committed by illegal aliens. This estimate is based on the fact that 13% of gang members arrested for committing acts of violence are illegal immigrants.

So then, $42.9 billion is the estimated yearly cost of violence from illegal aliens in gangs (13% of 330 billion).

I realize that a wall is not going to eliminate illegal aliens nor will it eliminate gang violence. But, these numbers are the relevant numbers for determining if the wall is a waste of money. Anyone who is honestly looking at whether or not the wall is a waste of money should be starting with these numbers.

For example, if the wall can keep out 3% of those illegal aliens that become gang members then it does pay for itself with an ROI over 20%, a very good ROI.

Personally I am not for the wall, but neither am I against it. I agree with those who say it is “ineffective” and will not keep out the really bad guys. But I also agree that it will keep out some, and 3% is hardly an overly optimistic estimate.

Secondly, whenever the government puts $5 billion into a construction project like this they will get back 36% in taxes the very first year. This is why public works projects from the government is effective. This is why it worked for FDR.

Third, when you compare $5 billion to the total US budget, it would be like someone who spends $100,000 a year having a bill for $50. $50 may not be insignificant, but it certainly is not worth all the air time this has gotten. Even if I thought my wife was wasting her money spending $50 on a better lock for the front door I would not make a big deal about it.

That is why I blame the shutdown on the Democrats. Trump campaigned on the wall, his supporters want it, and he is simply doing what he said he would do. The Democrats have no good reason to shut down the government over this.

PS -- 13% of gang related homicides is greater than the number of all the people killed on 9/11. And that is every year, not a one time event. So, if 9/11 can be characterized as a national security crisis, then why can't these deaths?
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:35 PM   #5096
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Trump campaigned on the wall, his supporters want it, and he is simply doing what he said he would do.
The wall was just one of Trump's brain farts during his campaign, that played well at his rally's, like Lock Her Up and Drain the Swamp.

And Trump took responsibility for the shutdown, and in fact, he's proud to do it. Plus, 5 billion will not build the wall. It will cover about 220 miles, and half of that will just be repairing what we already have up, which is not a wall. In short, it's a joke, and a photo op for Trump to say, see I built the wall.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:23 PM   #5097
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The wall was just one of Trump's brain farts during his campaign, that played well at his rally's, like Lock Her Up and Drain the Swamp.

And Trump took responsibility for the shutdown, and in fact, he's proud to do it. Plus, 5 billion will not build the wall. It will cover about 220 miles, and half of that will just be repairing what we already have up, which is not a wall. In short, it's a joke, and a photo op for Trump to say, see I built the wall.
Is there a crisis at our southern border? No but if there were we should do like we do after every mass shooting and give it our thoughts and prayers. Pray that the Mexicans will pay fo a wall like Trump promised they would.
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:24 AM   #5098
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The wall was just one of Trump's brain farts during his campaign, that played well at his rally's, like Lock Her Up and Drain the Swamp.

And Trump took responsibility for the shutdown, and in fact, he's proud to do it. Plus, 5 billion will not build the wall. It will cover about 220 miles, and half of that will just be repairing what we already have up, which is not a wall. In short, it's a joke, and a photo op for Trump to say, see I built the wall.
Good example of the vapid analysis you hear on the news even after 2 years, and even after the shutdown of the government. I consider it a complete joke to listen to people who do such superficial analysis claims that this goal is superficial.

1. My first question is if this is really as big an issue as they claim. A simple google search shows that 80% of gun violence is gang related. So if you want to reduce gun violence it makes sense to focus on gang violence.
Another simple search would surely make it clear that gun violence is the single biggest issue when it comes to law and order and safety.

So the answer to the first question is yes, a responsible person would focus on gang violence if they were serious about making the US safer.

2. My second question is if illegal immigrants are really part of the problem. It turns out that 13% of the violence with gangs is from illegal immigrants. This is not insignificant, it comes to around $50 billion in estimated damages. Also, these gangs are closely affiliated with gangs in other countries and this relationship is critical to them. For example, if they sell drugs this connection is to their supplier. If you can cut this connection you do far more damage to the gang than the 13% would indicate. An artery may not represent a large mass of the human body, but cut it and the body dies.

So yes, illegal immigrants are part of the problem and cutting that link could cripple the gangs ability to operate.

3. My third question is if the proposed remedy will actually solve the problem. The wall is not going to stop the import of drugs, even though the occasional mule will swallow the drugs in bags, even so I doubt these ones walk through the desert for 20 or 30 miles. Instead the wall will have an impact on illegal immigrants, particularly people who cannot climb the wall (older people, women and children). None of those people would be cartel hit men. However, many of them will be poor immigrants whose children may be prime targets to enter a gang later. So it is possible over a ten year span to see a small decrease in gang members, but even a 3% drop would be a significant impact to the US. But what I see as the potential real benefit is that fewer of the border guards can spend their time rounding up these immigrants, allowing us to focus more resources on the paths that the cartel uses -- tunnels, cars, trucks, and airplanes. Again, even if it allows for a 5% increase in seized contraband that would also be a big plus to our law enforcement.

So the term "solve" is relative, just like a weight loss program. Will cutting out fruit drinks and soft drinks "solve" the obesity epidemic? No, but it will help and that is how you make inroads. A little improvement here, and a little improvement there.

4. Since it won't "solve" the problem my fourth question is if it is cost effective. Will the $5 billion result in more than a $5 billion return to the US. I estimate that it will. Generally for a construction program like this you can compare it to a house with a 25 year mortgage at 5%. It is very difficult for me to believe anyone who looks at the numbers in an unbiased way taking all factors into account would not conclude that the benefit would be at least that if not far more. I see something closer to a 20% return on investment being a very conservative estimate, meaning the wall would pay for itself in 5 years.
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:30 AM   #5099
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Is there a crisis at our southern border? No but if there were we should do like we do after every mass shooting and give it our thoughts and prayers. Pray that the Mexicans will pay fo a wall like Trump promised they would.
Gang violence completely eclipses 9/11, with more than 10xs the deaths each year. Saying this is not a crisis is rubbing salt in the wounds of the family and friends of these kids who are killed each year. You should see their attitude every time some kid shoots up a suburban school, it is an offense to them that the news makes such a big deal of it when this is their every day experience and no one appears to care. Every year I have taught in Brooklyn some kid from our school has been killed in this kind of violence (either a kid going to our school or a kid directly related to one of our kids). So I am glad it is not a crisis for you, but that is a very inconsiderate attitude for the 1 million + people who have lost someone in the last 6 or 7 years.

(BTW there is a historical marker for the house Donald Trump grew up in within a block or two of this school, so it is very likely that Trump is well aware of what is happening in this neighborhood)

This really hit home for me when I heard that one of my students had lost his cousin to one of these gang shootings. So I went to him and as he talked I realized he was talking about someone else (the kid I had heard of played basketball) so I questioned him about it and then realized he had lost two cousins to gang shootings, not one.

Also, for those of you who are not aware, sneakers that are thrown over a power line are a tribute to a kid who was killed. If you see those hanging from a power line know that a kid in that neighborhood was killed.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:10 AM   #5100
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Gang violence completely eclipses 9/11, with more than 10xs the deaths each year. Saying this is not a crisis is rubbing salt in the wounds of the family and friends of these kids who are killed each year. You should see their attitude every time some kid shoots up a suburban school, it is an offense to them that the news makes such a big deal of it when this is their every day experience and no one appears to care. Every year I have taught in Brooklyn some kid from our school has been killed in this kind of violence (either a kid going to our school or a kid directly related to one of our kids). So I am glad it is not a crisis for you, but that is a very inconsiderate attitude for the 1 million + people who have lost someone in the last 6 or 7 years.

(BTW there is a historical marker for the house Donald Trump grew up in within a block or two of this school, so it is very likely that Trump is well aware of what is happening in this neighborhood)

This really hit home for me when I heard that one of my students had lost his cousin to one of these gang shootings. So I went to him and as he talked I realized he was talking about someone else (the kid I had heard of played basketball) so I questioned him about it and then realized he had lost two cousins to gang shootings, not one.

Also, for those of you who are not aware, sneakers that are thrown over a power line are a tribute to a kid who was killed. If you see those hanging from a power line know that a kid in that neighborhood was killed.
Unless you can demonstrate how building a wall on the US southern border is going to solve your neighborhood crime problem, you have made a wildly spurious leap in logic. Thanks for demonstrating how Trump wins support by evoking people's xenophobic fantasies.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:13 AM   #5101
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Unless you can demonstrate how building a wall on the US southern border is going to solve your neighborhood crime problem, you have made a wildly spurious leap in logic. Thanks for demonstrating how Trump wins support by evoking people's xenophobic fantasies.
This is not my recommended course of action, nor can anyone characterize me as a "supporter of Trump". On the contrary I am a supporter of the US constitution and sympathize and empathize with the tens of thousands of people affected by illegal immigrants killing Americans each year. It is not necessary to know anything more than this will help to empathize with them, and to respect the fact that Trump was elected as a result of our electoral process.

I respect the fact that they want us to do something, that has been demonstrated effectively for me. I can also respect the assertion that this might help. The example of the wall built in Israel is a valid example of how these walls can have a positive impact on reducing violence.

It is also very clear to me that the amount ($5 billion) is almost trivial when viewed in light of our entire budget. Shutting down the government over this is callous and inconsiderate. You are ignoring the people who have lost a loved one, you are ignoring the electorate that elected Trump, and you are willing to let millions of people who depend on their paycheck every two weeks to go without for what?

Once again, I blame the Democrats for this shutdown. I see no valid reason not to compromise. For example, suppose they agree to release $1 billion per year over the next 5 years to build this wall. If Trump is not reelected they could cancel that after 2 years. $1 billion a year is truly a trivial amount of our annual budget.

We currently have a very substantial "fence", "wall", "barrier" at our border. I have seen it in El Paso. Democrats didn't have a problem with that, so why the big issue over extending it?

Finally this claim that the wall "will not solve your neighborhood crime problem" is a straw man argument. Health clubs cannot promise to solve your obesity problem, but that is not an argument against having a membership. The issue is not whether or not it will "solve" the problem but rather will it "help" and if it will help is it a cost effective strategy.

I think it is absurd to say it won't help, the only issue is how much and is it worth $5 billion. But remember, the govt will get 36% back immediately as tax revenue. So the real question is whether or not it is worth 3.3 billion. Now this "barrier" will certainly be used for 25 years, so then this question translates into $130 million benefit per year. That is will it reduce violent crime in the US by 0.02% per year. No one can assure us it won't.

So the question for me is why are you saying no? What is your issue with trying this? Why are you so callous and inconsiderate to those who are suffering?
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:35 AM   #5102
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This is not my recommended course of action, nor can anyone characterize me as a "supporter of Trump". On the contrary I am a supporter of the US constitution and sympathize and empathize with the tens of thousands of people affected by illegal immigrants killing Americans each year. It is not necessary to know anything more than this will help to empathize with them, and to respect the fact that Trump was elected as a result of our electoral process.

I respect the fact that they want us to do something, that has been demonstrated effectively for me. I can also respect the assertion that this might help. The example of the wall built in Israel is a valid example of how these walls can have a positive impact on reducing violence.

It is also very clear to me that the amount ($5 billion) is almost trivial when viewed in light of our entire budget. Shutting down the government over this is callous and inconsiderate. You are ignoring the people who have lost a loved one, you are ignoring the electorate that elected Trump, and you are willing to let millions of people who depend on their paycheck every two weeks to go without for what?

Once again, I blame the Democrats for this shutdown. I see no valid reason not to compromise. For example, suppose they agree to release $1 billion per year over the next 5 years to build this wall. If Trump is not reelected they could cancel that after 2 years. $1 billion a year is truly a trivial amount of our annual budget.

We currently have a very substantial "fence", "wall", "barrier" at our border. I have seen it in El Paso. Democrats didn't have a problem with that, so why the big issue over extending it?

Finally this claim that the wall "will not solve your neighborhood crime problem" is a straw man argument. Health clubs cannot promise to solve your obesity problem, but that is not an argument against having a membership. The issue is not whether or not it will "solve" the problem but rather will it "help" and if it will help is it a cost effective strategy.

I think it is absurd to say it won't help, the only issue is how much and is it worth $5 billion. But remember, the govt will get 36% back immediately as tax revenue. So the real question is whether or not it is worth 3.3 billion. Now this "barrier" will certainly be used for 25 years, so then this question translates into $130 million benefit per year. That is will it reduce violent crime in the US by 0.02% per year. No one can assure us it won't.

So the question for me is why are you saying no? What is your issue with trying this? Why are you so callous and inconsiderate to those who are suffering?
Trump told a bunch of lies last night. Sorry to learn you support lying.

Trump said there's a national security crisis at the border. That's a lie. The real crisis is how to handle a historically high number of Central American families and children coming into the country many of whom are asking for asylum. The wall does nothing to solve that problem which is been exacerbated by the Trump administration's policies over the last two years.

Trump said that innocent people are being horribly victimized by immigrants who commit crimes. As Shepard Smith noted on Fox News last night government statistics show that there is less violent crime by undocumented immigrant population by the general population.

Trump had promised that Mexico would pay for the wall. That was a lie.

Give in to a liar and the lying will never stop.

This liar needs to go.
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:35 AM   #5103
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Last night while watching Ch'ancy, my wife says "they look just like that old couple in the picture with the pitchfork."

Obviously she was spot on.





"Professing to be wise, they became fools." -- Romans 1.22

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Old 01-09-2019, 09:24 AM   #5104
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Last night while watching Ch'ancy, my wife says "they look just like that old couple in the picture with the pitchfork."

Obviously she was spot on.





"Professing to be wise, they became fools." -- Romans 1.22

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Very cute bro Ohio.

Let's be like Fox : Fair and Balanced :

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Old 01-09-2019, 09:32 AM   #5105
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Good example of the vapid analysis you hear on the news even after 2 years, and even after the shutdown of the government. I consider it a complete joke to listen to people who do such superficial analysis claims that this goal is superficial.

1. My first question is if this is really as big an issue as they claim. A simple google search shows that 80% of gun violence is gang related. So if you want to reduce gun violence it makes sense to focus on gang violence.
Another simple search would surely make it clear that gun violence is the single biggest issue when it comes to law and order and safety.

So the answer to the first question is yes, a responsible person would focus on gang violence if they were serious about making the US safer.

2. My second question is if illegal immigrants are really part of the problem. It turns out that 13% of the violence with gangs is from illegal immigrants. This is not insignificant, it comes to around $50 billion in estimated damages. Also, these gangs are closely affiliated with gangs in other countries and this relationship is critical to them. For example, if they sell drugs this connection is to their supplier. If you can cut this connection you do far more damage to the gang than the 13% would indicate. An artery may not represent a large mass of the human body, but cut it and the body dies.

So yes, illegal immigrants are part of the problem and cutting that link could cripple the gangs ability to operate.

3. My third question is if the proposed remedy will actually solve the problem. The wall is not going to stop the import of drugs, even though the occasional mule will swallow the drugs in bags, even so I doubt these ones walk through the desert for 20 or 30 miles. Instead the wall will have an impact on illegal immigrants, particularly people who cannot climb the wall (older people, women and children). None of those people would be cartel hit men. However, many of them will be poor immigrants whose children may be prime targets to enter a gang later. So it is possible over a ten year span to see a small decrease in gang members, but even a 3% drop would be a significant impact to the US. But what I see as the potential real benefit is that fewer of the border guards can spend their time rounding up these immigrants, allowing us to focus more resources on the paths that the cartel uses -- tunnels, cars, trucks, and airplanes. Again, even if it allows for a 5% increase in seized contraband that would also be a big plus to our law enforcement.

So the term "solve" is relative, just like a weight loss program. Will cutting out fruit drinks and soft drinks "solve" the obesity epidemic? No, but it will help and that is how you make inroads. A little improvement here, and a little improvement there.

4. Since it won't "solve" the problem my fourth question is if it is cost effective. Will the $5 billion result in more than a $5 billion return to the US. I estimate that it will. Generally for a construction program like this you can compare it to a house with a 25 year mortgage at 5%. It is very difficult for me to believe anyone who looks at the numbers in an unbiased way taking all factors into account would not conclude that the benefit would be at least that if not far more. I see something closer to a 20% return on investment being a very conservative estimate, meaning the wall would pay for itself in 5 years.
If I were inclined to accept your analysis I may as well accept Trump's.

But I prefer facts to either, not crazy suppositions and wishful conclusions :

AP FACT CHECK: Trump and the disputed border crisis

https://www.apnews.com/3bf581a53684440b92121bb1b8ae43a9
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:54 AM   #5106
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If I were inclined to accept your analysis I may as well accept Trump's.

But I prefer facts to either, not crazy suppositions and wishful conclusions :

AP FACT CHECK: Trump and the disputed border crisis
A.P. Fact Checkers -- What a joke!

Mark Twain said it best: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Many books have been written about this.



Sorry friend, but your opinions have been totally *manipulated*.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:15 AM   #5107
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Trump told a bunch of lies last night. Sorry to learn you support lying.

Trump said there's a national security crisis at the border. That's a lie. The real crisis is how to handle a historically high number of Central American families and children coming into the country many of whom are asking for asylum. The wall does nothing to solve that problem which is been exacerbated by the Trump administration's policies over the last two years.
This is your opinion. This is the problem with the discourse these days people passing off their opinion as facts. Whether or not the wall will be worth the $5 billion is an opinion, not a fact. Gangs accounting for 80% of the violent crimes in this country is a fact, not an opinion. Gang violence being the biggest issue concerning crime and people feeling safe in this country is a fact, not an opinion.

Describing the border as a "national security crisis" is an opinion, not a fact and not a lie.

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Trump said that innocent people are being horribly victimized by immigrants who commit crimes. As Shepard Smith noted on Fox News last night government statistics show that there is less violent crime by undocumented immigrant population by the general population.
Are you serious, do you even have an idea what a crime is? Saying that a person has murdered fewer people than Hitler doesn't mean that murder is not a crime. 13% of gang members arrested for violent crimes are illegal immigrants. Those are crimes that never would have been committed if they were stopped at the border.

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Trump had promised that Mexico would pay for the wall. That was a lie.
Yawn

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Give in to a liar and the lying will never stop.

This liar needs to go.
So impeach him. If Mueller's report indicates he was involved in felonies I am all for impeachment. But focus on the true story and don't get worked up about this idiotic stuff.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:23 AM   #5108
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If I were inclined to accept your analysis I may as well accept Trump's.

But I prefer facts to either, not crazy suppositions and wishful conclusions :

AP FACT CHECK: Trump and the disputed border crisis

https://www.apnews.com/3bf581a53684440b92121bb1b8ae43a9
Did you even read it? They don't dispute one thing I said.

1. They point out that a wall will not stop the pipeline of drugs. They don’t dispute the facts concerning the effect of the drugs nor do they dispute the fact that they are coming across this border.

I did not claim the wall will have a direct impact on stopping the drugs, rather I said this could help concentrate the border security at these points perhaps resulting in more seizures.

2. Trump said Democrats will not fund the wall. They call this a lie because they will fund other forms of border security including fence building. So then everyone is agreed on the funding this barrier, the only issue is whether it is $1 billion or 5? So we are shutting down the government because of that?
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:23 AM   #5109
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So impeach him. If Mueller's report indicates he was involved in felonies I am all for impeachment. But focus on the true story and don't get worked up about this idiotic stuff.
Mueller's investigations are more idiotic than the other "stuff" you mentioned.

So far all he has "proven" is that federal prosecutors can easily force people to "lie," and that people in power don't pay taxes.

Duhhhh!
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:26 AM   #5110
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Did you even read it? They don't dispute one thing I said.

1. They point out that a wall will not stop the pipeline of drugs. They don’t dispute the facts concerning the effect of the drugs nor do they dispute the fact that they are coming across this border.

I did not claim the wall will have a direct impact on stopping the drugs, rather I said this could help concentrate the border security at these points perhaps resulting in more seizures.

2. Trump said Democrats will not fund the wall. They call this a lie because they will fund other forms of border security including fence building. So then everyone is agreed on the funding this barrier, the only issue is whether it is $1 billion or 5? So we are shutting down the government because of that?
ZNP, try not to use facts or reason to communicate with certain posters.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:49 PM   #5111
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ZNP, try not to use facts or reason to communicate with certain posters.
It is mind boggling.

To listen to them it is some kind of crime to say that the US putting up a barrier on the border is some kind of crime. They are like the pharisees and saducees making a big stink over a gnat while swallowing the camel (by comparison this $5 billion dollar project is a gnat in the US budge).

They complain about gun violence but pretend that gang violence and gangs associated with cartels are not an issue.

They jump on the fact that "the majority of immigrants" are not criminals while ignoring that 13% of these violent crimes from gangs are not only illegal immigrants, but illegal immigrants that have crossed the border with Mexico illegally multiple times.

This claim that "this will not solve the problem" is such a slimy argument. It is like an obese person saying that cutting out pizza will not solve the problem. Maybe not, but it will help and it is a step in the right direction.

But what makes angry is not once do they make a suggestion on how the $5 billion would be better spent.

I agree that the wall is not my first choice on how to solve this problem, but on the other hand I also agree that it might be helpful and it might pay for itself by reducing the violent crime.

However, I am more than happy to provide suggestions that I know will work:

1. Spend $5 billion to eliminate all the school lunch debt. I have seen that providing breakfast and lunch to students improves attendance. Getting kids off the streets keeps them away from gangs and street crime.

2. Pay for after school programs. Right now we can only afford 1 after school tutoring session a week, many kids can't make that day, if we had more then they would pass, graduate and not fall through the cracks.

3. Require all gun owners to have insurance that would pay for any damages they inflict on others, just like car owners have to have liability insurance. This enlists a very powerful lobbyist that can stand up to the NRA and push common sense legislation. This also gives us immediate use of the most sophisticated computer network and algorithms that would monitor every purchase a gun owner makes. In addition they would offer discounts to people who provided additional access to other records that would immediately flag them if they had mental health issues, got fired, or had some extremely stressful event (wife killed by drunk driver, etc).
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:09 PM   #5112
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It is mind boggling.

To listen to them it is some kind of crime to say that the US putting up a barrier on the border is some kind of crime. They are like the pharisees and saducees making a big stink over a gnat while swallowing the camel (by comparison this $5 billion dollar project is a gnat in the US budge).
I don't know what grade you teach, but talking to those children every day sure has prepared you for this forum.

Just consider how many more "intelligent" folks out there fixate their entire belief system on the latest Democratic talking points.

There must be something to this "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I hear about. I hope I never catch it.

If scotus RBG does not recover, we may have rioting in the streets.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:34 PM   #5113
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There must be something to this "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I hear about. I hope I never catch it.
That is how I would describe it. Trump has them deranged to the point that anything he says or does they are jumping up and down throwing dust in the air and screaming.
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:19 PM   #5114
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ZNP, try not to use facts or reason to communicate with certain posters.
Yeah bro ZNP ... like posters that post
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:26 PM   #5115
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It is mind boggling.

To listen to them it is some kind of crime to say that the US putting up a barrier on the border is some kind of crime. They are like the pharisees and saducees making a big stink over a gnat while swallowing the camel (by comparison this $5 billion dollar project is a gnat in the US budge).

They complain about gun violence but pretend that gang violence and gangs associated with cartels are not an issue.
C'mon bro ZNP. Did Sandy Hook happen because we don't have a border wall? How about the Las Vegas mass shooting, and all the others, that are domestic terrorism, that the wall has nothing to do with whatsoever.

And stats show that crime among the illegal immigrants is lower that American citizens.

So your crazy "facts" are nonsense.

Just tell us whether you support the wall or not, and be done with it.
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:39 PM   #5116
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C'mon bro ZNP. Did Sandy Hook happen because we don't have a border wall? How about the Las Vegas mass shooting, and all the others, that are domestic terrorism, that the wall has nothing to do with whatsoever.

And stats show that crime among the illegal immigrants is lower that American citizens.

So your crazy "facts" are nonsense.

Just tell us whether you support the wall or not, and be done with it.
Great irrelevant points. Would body armor on cops have prevented Sandy hook? No, then why have them?

Do I support the wall? Wow. You mean the existing border security fence that runs through El Paso. No one ever asked me. So the real question was would I support tearing it down. No. I don't live in El Paso and I respect their city and the decision of either the US, Texas or El Paso to put up a fence.

Or do you mean do I support adding to the existing "wall" (fence, barrier, whatever). Yes, I do. I have hiked through the desert and know it is extremely difficult to do that in the dark. I also know that an extra 5 or 10 miles walking around the fence can mean an extra day for women, children and anybody but the fittest hikers. So I can easily see how extending the fence in the areas where they are getting the most illegals could save manpower and resources in rounding them up.

The reason I don't see this as my own suggestion is that the wall is extremely limited in its effectiveness on crime in the US. I do see that over a 25 year period it could easily reduce violent crime enough to pay for itself. But the biggest impact on reducing gun violence, imo, is to require liability insurance for all gun owners. That would have a direct impact on every single crime committed with a gun in the US, that would immediately enlist a major lobbyist to finally get legislation passed that would have an impact.

Second I consider education a much more effective solution to getting poor people out of poverty which in turns means they are much more valuable as taxpayers. That high school kid killed by gang violence could have been a taxpayer for 45 years. Government lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax revenue. $5 billion goes a very long way to doing that. In NYC free meals (kids call them "freefree") and subway cards improve attendance a lot.

So in conclusion I like that someone is doing something other than spewing angst. Not what I would have chosen but it might be a good step in a strategy of cutting the gangs off from the cartels.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:13 PM   #5117
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“Never ever give up,” he [Trump] urged graduates at Wagner College on New York’s Staten Island:

“Don’t give up. Don’t allow it to happen. If there’s a concrete wall in front of you, go through it, go over it, go around it, but get to the other side of that wall.” Trump 2004.

Go to minute 12:35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQqjSPsvA0E
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:18 PM   #5118
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Great irrelevant points. Would body armor on cops have prevented Sandy hook? No, then why have them?

Do I support the wall? Wow. You mean the existing border security fence that runs through El Paso. No one ever asked me. So the real question was would I support tearing it down. No. I don't live in El Paso and I respect their city and the decision of either the US, Texas or El Paso to put up a fence.
Zero Lawmakers Representing Border Districts Support Donald Trump’s Wall

The nine House members representing border districts from California to Texas voted in favor of reopening the government without additional money for the wall.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-...ding-2019-1-8/
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Old 01-10-2019, 05:03 AM   #5119
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Zero Lawmakers Representing Border Districts Support Donald Trump’s Wall

The nine House members representing border districts from California to Texas voted in favor of reopening the government without additional money for the wall.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-...ding-2019-1-8/
These are separate questions. I feel like I am talking to flat stanley who cannot see 3 dimensions.

In my posts when I describe this brouhaha as being like a huge marital spat over a wife wanting to spend $50 on a lock for the front door for a family that spends $100,000 every year that is an indication that I also do not support the shutdown. Nor do I think this shutdown is over this, but rather this was simply the latest straw they can fight over.

Likewise when I say that I blame the Democrats for the shutdown that implies to most people who read this that I don't support the shutdown. Your question did not ask "do I support shutting the govt down over the wall". Obviously (to those who can see 3 dimensions) I don't. Hence, I blame the Democrats for this. Why don't I blame the Republicans? Because they campaigned on this issue, they were elected and they are simply doing what they were elected to do and I support the US constitution and the idea of democracy. I view the Democrats as extremely hypocritical on this. They portray themselves as very much for gun legislation and yet this one proposal will actually have an impact, small though it may be, on gun violence and they are pretending outrage. Why, what have they proposed?

This has become a very partisan battle, so all Democrats are on one side, all Republicans are on the other. However, congressmen and some Senators who are up for election in less than 2 years are in the crosshairs of this and all of them have to support getting those furloughed paid. Think of how absurd this whole "shutting the government" down is. They aren't actually shutting it down, they are simply requiring people to work without getting paid. It is an outrage and a completely different issue from the "barrier".

In my opinion the government has to do something about gun violence, since they are afraid of the NRA and the 2nd amendment their only recourse is to go after those who are not protected by it, the illegal immigrants. When you look at the illegal immigrants in gangs who are violent offenders you discover that they have already been deported multiple times so that is a big joke of a solution. So they have done the only option left, make it harder to get into the country illegally.

As I have already said I don't view this as anything more than a baby step. IMO enlisting a bigger, badder lobbyist to your side, the Insurance industry is not only a much bigger and better step, it is also a much more cost effective step (doesn't even cost the taxpayers).
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:18 AM   #5120
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This is your opinion. This is the problem with the discourse these days people passing off their opinion as facts. Whether or not the wall will be worth the $5 billion is an opinion, not a fact. Gangs accounting for 80% of the violent crimes in this country is a fact, not an opinion. Gang violence being the biggest issue concerning crime and people feeling safe in this country is a fact, not an opinion.

Describing the border as a "national security crisis" is an opinion, not a fact and not a lie.



Are you serious, do you even have an idea what a crime is? Saying that a person has murdered fewer people than Hitler doesn't mean that murder is not a crime. 13% of gang members arrested for violent crimes are illegal immigrants. Those are crimes that never would have been committed if they were stopped at the border.



Yawn



So impeach him. If Mueller's report indicates he was involved in felonies I am all for impeachment. But focus on the true story and don't get worked up about this idiotic stuff.
Here are a few facts for you to yawn over:
  • Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall indirectly through a new trade deal. This is misleading; no money for the deal ends up contributing to construction.
  • Trump reeled off a series of numbers about the numbers of border crossers arrested for assault, sex crimes and murder. But his numbers were inflated.
  • He talked about drugs flowing across the border, but ignored the fact that they come through ports of entry that would remain open after a wall is build.
  • He said Democrats used to support his wall, but stopped once he took office. This is wrong; Democrats never supported the type of concrete barrier Trump has talked about. They did support fencing, but Trump mocked their position as inadequate and ridiculous.

Trump's arguments for his wall have been shot down. He couldn't get it built when there was a Republican majority in Congress, so there's no reason to give it to him now. f the Dems cave on this, every time he wants something he'll shut down the government again.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:01 AM   #5121
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:26 AM   #5122
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Here are a few facts for you to yawn over:
  • Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall indirectly through a new trade deal. This is misleading; no money for the deal ends up contributing to construction.
  • Trump reeled off a series of numbers about the numbers of border crossers arrested for assault, sex crimes and murder. But his numbers were inflated.
  • I have issues with the numbers used by both sides on this argument, but will concede that Trump's statements invite misrepresentation.

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    Originally Posted by zeek View Post
  • He talked about drugs flowing across the border, but ignored the fact that they come through ports of entry that would remain open after a wall is build.
  • I agree that a very poor job has been done of explaining the benefit of a barrier.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeek View Post
  • He said Democrats used to support his wall, but stopped once he took office. This is wrong; Democrats never supported the type of concrete barrier Trump has talked about. They did support fencing, but Trump mocked their position as inadequate and ridiculous.
Once again this looks a lot like the "last straw" rather than a valid argument. If they both agree on a fence then it seems absurd to shut down the govt over this.

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Trump's arguments for his wall have been shot down. He couldn't get it built when there was a Republican majority in Congress, so there's no reason to give it to him now. f the Dems cave on this, every time he wants something he'll shut down the government again.
Sounds like the arguments my colleagues hear all the time from their kindergartners.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:15 AM   #5123
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Trump's arguments for his wall have been shot down. He couldn't get it built when there was a Republican majority in Congress, so there's no reason to give it to him now. f the Dems cave on this, every time he wants something he'll shut down the government again.
Trump says a National Emergency would be a lot of fun, and slams a reporter for asking why he had the GOP for 2 years, and didn't get his wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP-T3FyiuII
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:44 AM   #5124
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To sum up -- we have had a fence/barrier on the Mexican border for many years now without anyone saying one peep about racism, insults to Mexico, waste of money, ineffective, etc. This barrier is in high traffic areas like El Paso, but in the more remote parts of the border it isn't there. I cannot see anything radical in the idea of extending it, though making it go continuously from the Gulf to the Pacific might be extreme, I am pretty sure that option has already been taken off the table. I can also see the description of a "wall" or a "concrete wall" or an Israel like wall could be seen as extreme.

The cost of $5 billion has been bandied about as some kind of exorbitant waste, yet when viewed in light of the annual budget it is minuscule and when viewed in light of the cost of crime committed by illegal aliens that came across that border it is also minuscule (about 10%).

No one is disputing the fact that Trump ran on a promise to build this "wall" and that those who voted for him support this. The idea that 40 million people in this country cannot view their vote as a referendum that impacts about 0.1% of the US budget for a single year is offensive and unreasonable to me.

Other than that their has been a lot of hysterical rhetoric that infers the absolute worst motives of each side and the slander is off the charts. For what? We already have border security, that isn't changing. We already have a barrier, that fundamental fact isn't changing. We already have an immigration policy, that isn't changing.

Let me give you an example of what I heard today (though not on this forum thankfully). Don Trump Jr. used a zoo as an example that walls work in a tweet. I thought that was a valid response to the idea that walls are ineffective. They will certainly limit and stop some of the traffic. No one is suggesting they'll stop tunnels, but tunnels are simple to find. No one is saying they'll stop airplanes or boats, but one would think that is obvious. No one is saying that they will stop cars and trucks, but focusing the border security on these points allows us to devote more manpower to ports and crossings. So Zeek has asked for proof that walls are effective -- Israel has used them effectively and there are many other obvious examples like Zoos where they work as well.

But that is not how this person saw the tweet. He described it as an insult to Mexico, describing everyone in the country, not just the illegal aliens trying to cross into the US, but everyone as being an animal. The amount of anger and vitriol is off the charts.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:22 PM   #5125
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To sum up -- we have had a fence/barrier on the Mexican border for many years now without anyone saying one peep about racism, insults to Mexico, waste of money, ineffective, etc. This barrier is in high traffic areas like El Paso, but in the more remote parts of the border it isn't there. I cannot see anything radical in the idea of extending it, though making it go continuously from the Gulf to the Pacific might be extreme, I am pretty sure that option has already been taken off the table. I can also see the description of a "wall" or a "concrete wall" or an Israel like wall could be seen as extreme.

The cost of $5 billion has been bandied about as some kind of exorbitant waste, yet when viewed in light of the annual budget it is minuscule and when viewed in light of the cost of crime committed by illegal aliens that came across that border it is also minuscule (about 10%).

No one is disputing the fact that Trump ran on a promise to build this "wall" and that those who voted for him support this. The idea that 40 million people in this country cannot view their vote as a referendum that impacts about 0.1% of the US budget for a single year is offensive and unreasonable to me.

Other than that their has been a lot of hysterical rhetoric that infers the absolute worst motives of each side and the slander is off the charts. For what? We already have border security, that isn't changing. We already have a barrier, that fundamental fact isn't changing. We already have an immigration policy, that isn't changing.

Let me give you an example of what I heard today (though not on this forum thankfully). Don Trump Jr. used a zoo as an example that walls work in a tweet. I thought that was a valid response to the idea that walls are ineffective. They will certainly limit and stop some of the traffic. No one is suggesting they'll stop tunnels, but tunnels are simple to find. No one is saying they'll stop airplanes or boats, but one would think that is obvious. No one is saying that they will stop cars and trucks, but focusing the border security on these points allows us to devote more manpower to ports and crossings. So Zeek has asked for proof that walls are effective -- Israel has used them effectively and there are many other obvious examples like Zoos where they work as well.

But that is not how this person saw the tweet. He described it as an insult to Mexico, describing everyone in the country, not just the illegal aliens trying to cross into the US, but everyone as being an animal. The amount of anger and vitriol is off the charts.
So .... chant it out loud bro ZNP. Let's hear it :

Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!

And:

Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it!
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:24 AM   #5126
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So .... chant it out loud bro ZNP. Let's hear it :

Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!

And:

Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it!
The big push in HS education nationally is for students to understand how to write an argumentative essay which includes both claims and counter claims.

What I have noticed though is that most people who discuss these issues are incapable of doing that, even among those who should be teaching others by now.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:51 AM   #5127
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So .... chant it out loud bro ZNP. Let's hear it :

Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!

And:

Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it! Make Mexico pay for it!
Trump's wall is a metaphor. It was his most popular campaign promise. He didn't deliver on it for 2 years when the Republicans dominated Congress. If he doesn't deliver something that he can call his wall in the next two years the Democrats can use it against him in the 2020 campaign. If he can claim that he build the wall like he promised he'll base his campaign for reelection on it. That's primarily what this impasse is about. If the argument were just about border security Republicans and Democrats agree on a lot of things. This is about holding Trump to one term in the White House. You know like Mitch McConnell tried to do to Barack Obama by blocking his legislative agenda.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:34 AM   #5128
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Trump's wall is a metaphor. It was his most popular campaign promise. He didn't deliver on it for 2 years when the Republicans dominated Congress. If he doesn't deliver something that he can call his wall in the next two years the Democrats can use it against him in the 2020 campaign. If he can claim that he build the wall like he promised he'll base his campaign for reelection on it. That's primarily what this impasse is about. If the argument were just about border security Republicans and Democrats agree on a lot of things. This is about holding Trump to one term in the White House. You know like Mitch McConnell tried to do to Barack Obama by blocking his legislative agenda.
I agree this shutdown is simply a political game using people's lives as pawns. It is outrageous.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:59 AM   #5129
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I agree this shutdown is simply a political game using people's lives as pawns. It is outrageous.
Politics rules in Washington DC!? I'm shocked. It's a game both sides are playing. Real people are getting hurt? What else is new? You weren't born yesterday, were you? It's a good thing the US Constitution prevents this sort of thing. The USA needs more "thoughts and prayers."
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:45 AM   #5130
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Trump is the first President to take this drug scourge at the border seriously. Neither Clinton, "W", nor Obama did, each of them having their own issues with addictions. Trump, on the other hand, never gets credit for his disciplined rejection of all alcohol, tobacco, and drugs.

Also, the difference between a President who speaks from the heart versus those who merely read from teleprompters could not be more apparent. Trump takes campaign promises seriously, in contrast with the others.

Trump is serious about protecting the American people, while others merely gave us lip-service, so its no wonder that so many folks on the left got itchy ears from teleprompterisis.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:00 AM   #5131
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The USA needs more "thoughts and prayers."
From what I've seen so far, thoughts and prayers is what's used to avoid fixing obvious serious problems, that need action. They are a non-fix, and useless, except for doing nothing, and taking the known obviously needed action.

Thoughts and prayers? Bahahahahahahs !!!

Thoughts and prayers to avoid taking action are actually complicit in harms and deaths ... and those that use them in that way should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:06 AM   #5132
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From what I've seen so far, thoughts and prayers is what's used to avoid fixing obvious serious problems, that need action. They are a non-fix, and useless, except for doing nothing, and taking the known obviously needed action.

Thoughts and prayers? Bahahahahahahs !!!

Thoughts and prayers to avoid taking action are actually complicit in harms and deaths ... and those that use them in that way should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.
Well duh. I thought that was obvious. You seem to have no ear for ironies other than your own. Bahaha your own self.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:42 PM   #5133
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So then for once we all (4) agree that this is simply a political game in which the common man suffers as usual. Democrats don't want Trump to get a "victory" which in my opinion is cowardice. If they actually believe it won't have any impact let him get his wall. It will take months, maybe even more than a year to build. But so what, you can point to the fact that there has been no improvement, the whole thing was empty promises and campaign on the fact that you were right and "I told you so". What are the democrats afraid of?

Sounds like hypocrisy, they are afraid it will work and the Republicans will get credit for actually doing something about violent crime.

I understand why Trump has to stay the course, I also understand why the other Republicans (in the Senate) need to line up with him, but what I don't understand is why the Democrats think this is worth shutting the govt down and messing with millions of American families.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:11 PM   #5134
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I understand why Trump has to stay the course, I also understand why the other Republicans (in the Senate) need to line up with him, but what I don't understand is why the Democrats think this is worth shutting the govt down and messing with millions of American families.
How could the Democrats and their media ever agree with Trump since they spend all their time convincing their base that Trump is Hitler and Satan. Talk about cognitive dissonance! They agreed with the wall when Obama was president, but now is "different." They have all learned the art of "flip-flops" from the masters -- John Kerry and Hillary.

Anybody watch CNN's Jim Acosta clip standing next to a border wall in Texas and telling Americans that the border crisis is manufactured? Duhhhh?

Dumb as a rock Acosta unwittingly proved Trump's entire argument -- walls bring security, peace, and safety!

It is perhaps the greatest myth of the 21st century that Democratic leaders actually care for people. They use women, they use african Americans, they use the illegals, they use LGBTQ, they use the climate and the environment, etc. but all they really care for is power.

Just like Carl Sagan said, "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:44 PM   #5135
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How could the Democrats and their media ever agree with Trump since they spend all their time convincing their base that Trump is Hitler and Satan. Talk about cognitive dissonance! They agreed with the wall when Obama was president, but now is "different." They have all learned the art of "flip-flops" from the masters -- John Kerry and Hillary.

Anybody watch CNN's Jim Acosta clip standing next to a border wall in Texas and telling Americans that the border crisis is manufactured? Duhhhh?

Dumb as a rock Acosta unwittingly proved Trump's entire argument -- walls bring security, peace, and safety!

It is perhaps the greatest myth of the 21st century that Democratic leaders actually care for people. They use women, they use african Americans, they use the illegals, they use LGBTQ, they use the climate and the environment, etc. but all they really care for is power.

Just like Carl Sagan said, "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.
Good post bro Ohio, tho methinks it's too narrowly applied. Methinks there's more bamboozled than just the Demmies.

Example : The GoFundMe for Trump's wall. Trump supporters have pored money into it, to the tune of more than $20 million. The person who created the page is Brian Kolfage, a right-wing nutjob decorated vet.

First off, the government can't take gifts. Then there's the matter that Kolfage has a history of conning money from right wing suckers, on other GoFundMe accounts, masquerading as good causes, but actually enriching him.

Same with this wall GoFundMe. It's got the right bamboozled, just like you claim the left is bamboozled.

It's small minds, whether left or right, that only sees one as right and the other as wrong. No one has a corner on either.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:40 AM   #5136
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Good post bro Ohio, tho methinks it's too narrowly applied. Methinks there's more bamboozled than just the Demmies.

Example : The GoFundMe for Trump's wall. Trump supporters have pored money into it, to the tune of more than $20 million. The person who created the page is Brian Kolfage, a right-wing nutjob decorated vet.

First off, the government can't take gifts. Then there's the matter that Kolfage has a history of conning money from right wing suckers, on other GoFundMe accounts, masquerading as good causes, but actually enriching him.

Same with this wall GoFundMe. It's got the right bamboozled, just like you claim the left is bamboozled.

It's small minds, whether left or right, that only sees one as right and the other as wrong. No one has a corner on either.
Why is a GOFUNDME page a bamboozle?

Did you ever think that perhaps some Americans are so concerned about border security that they are willing to pay above and beyond all the taxes we already pay?

Have you lost the ability to objectively think about the issues? Any idea how many billions our g'ment wastes every year? Southwest cities are being destroyed by this blight of crime from illegal aliens.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:54 AM   #5137
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...what I don't understand is why the Democrats think this is worth shutting the govt down and messing with millions of American families.
I already explained it to you. You apparently don't get it because of your partisan bias which you seem to be unaware of.

As Roger Cohen observed:
When Trump was in business, his shtick was stiffing contractors. If confronted, he would try some bombast and storm out of meetings, as he did the other day with congressional leaders, ending talks on the partial government shutdown caused by a crisis he has manufactured. His shtick now is stiffing all Americans. The technique is the same: Keep reality at a distance through hyperactive fakery.
Trump has offered the Dems nothing worth making a deal. Where's the "art" in that?
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:41 AM   #5138
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I already explained it to you. You apparently don't get it because of your partisan bias which you seem to be unaware of.

As Roger Cohen observed:
When Trump was in business, his shtick was stiffing contractors. If confronted, he would try some bombast and storm out of meetings, as he did the other day with congressional leaders, ending talks on the partial government shutdown caused by a crisis he has manufactured. His shtick now is stiffing all Americans. The technique is the same: Keep reality at a distance through hyperactive fakery.
Trump has offered the Dems nothing worth making a deal. Where's the "art"?
Trump offered the Dems' beloved DACA's a pathway to citizenship.

The Dems held up the DACA's as a shtick for years until Trump came along and offered to give them not just 800K but 1,800K DACA's. Since then the Dems don't talk about DACA's anymore. Why is that?

They are the party of RESIST. That's what they have told us all along.

I find it a little humorous when you accuse ZNP of "partisan bias" towards Trump.
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:07 AM   #5139
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I already explained it to you. You apparently don't get it because of your partisan bias which you seem to be unaware of.

As Roger Cohen observed:
When Trump was in business, his shtick was stiffing contractors. If confronted, he would try some bombast and storm out of meetings, as he did the other day with congressional leaders, ending talks on the partial government shutdown caused by a crisis he has manufactured. His shtick now is stiffing all Americans. The technique is the same: Keep reality at a distance through hyperactive fakery.
Trump has offered the Dems nothing worth making a deal. Where's the "art" in that?
Oh, that is what I can't see? Trump has manufactured a shutdown because his MO is to stiff workers and he can't go two years without seeing that someone does not get paid?

I did not realize you had been committed and were posting from the looney bin. Good for you. If this is part of the therapy kudos to your therapist.
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:53 AM   #5140
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Trump offered the Dems' beloved DACA's a pathway to citizenship.

The Dems held up the DACA's as a shtick for years until Trump came along and offered to give them not just 800K but 1,800K DACA's. Since then the Dems don't talk about DACA's anymore. Why is that?

They are the party of RESIST. That's what they have told us all along.

I find it a little humorous when you accuse ZNP of "partisan bias" towards Trump.

Over and over again Trump has proved to be an unreliable negotiator. He has repeatedly used DACA as bait only to switch when negotiations were underway.

IF you think Dems don't talk about DACA any more it's because you only consume Fake News.

As the January shutdown loomed, Trump bashed Democrats for withholding votes because of DACA. On January 12 he tweeted:
"Sadly, Democrats want to stop paying our troops and government workers in order to give a sweetheart deal, not a fair deal, for DACA. Take care of our Military, and our Country, FIRST!"
I think we all have our biases. They are based on our backgrounds, our expereince and it's limits and our choices. The degree that we recognize them is an important aspect of our self-awareness. To me you seem to be more biased then ZNP because he reads widely including opposing views.

I do likewise and I respect intelligently thought-out conservative views which I often entertain. One way I do this is by watching debates between prominent thinkers with opposing points of view on YouTube.

From what you post you only seem to consume stuff that confirms your biases.
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:39 AM   #5141
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Have you lost the ability to objectively think about the issues?
Yes. I did. And I've been working on that ability since leaving the LC. I think I've come a long way, but maybe not far enough for you. I'll keep trying to do better. In the meantime, thanks for your grace.

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Any idea how many billions our g'ment wastes every year?
No! But I have read of $500.00 dollar hammers, trillions on unnecessary wars, and things like that.

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Southwest cities are being destroyed by this blight of crime from illegal aliens.
Then why are the border state members of congress against the wall?

"There are nine members of the House of Representatives whose districts lie along the US-Mexico border.

It is perhaps not surprising that the eight Democrats oppose President Donald Trump's signature campaign pledge.

But the one Republican congressman - whose district stretches for 820 miles (1,320km) along the border - is also hostile."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46815569

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I find it a little humorous when you accuse ZNP of "partisan bias" towards Trump.
Yeah. There's no trace of partisanship out here.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:58 AM   #5142
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OI think we all have our biases. They are based on our backgrounds, our expereince and it's limits and our choices. The degree that we recognize them is an important aspect of our self-awareness. To me you seem to be more biased then ZNP because he reads widely including opposing views.
And for a moment there ... I thought you might actually be ready to admit something ... but then just as quickly ... you return to your old ways.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:28 AM   #5143
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No! But I have read of $500.00 dollar hammers, trillions on unnecessary wars, and things like that.
My understanding is that they don't actually pay $500 for a hammer, rather those inflated bills are designed to cover up secret programs. If you notice most if not all of those kind of bills are with the Pentagon.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:30 AM   #5144
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Yeah. There's no trace of partisanship out here.
Thanks for that vote of confidence. Really appreciate it. I try my best to be fair and balanced.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:34 AM   #5145
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Just want to remind everyone of a few things:

1. My position is that 9/11 was an inside job that involved people at the highest levels of our government closely connected to President Bush.

2. I also strongly agree with those that say JFK assassination was a CIA conspiracy.

So I do not dismiss conspiracy theories out of hand. But Trump wants to shut down the government because he enjoys stiffing those working for him like the Secret Service?! Seriously? Even if he is not the one paying them?
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:59 AM   #5146
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Thanks for that vote of confidence. Really appreciate it. I try my best to be fair and balanced.
"Fair, Balanced, and Unafraid." Like FNC anchor Bret Baier?
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:33 AM   #5147
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Mexico won't pay for it. Congress won't pay for it. Republicans didn't pay for it. Democrats won't pay for it. Taxpayers won't pay for it. The executive branch can't appropriate funds ...

And even GoFundMe won't pay for it. It's giving back the $20 million to donors.

I know he thinks he's always a winner, but not this time.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:09 PM   #5148
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Mexico won't pay for it. Congress won't pay for it. Republicans didn't pay for it. Democrats won't pay for it. Taxpayers won't pay for it. The executive branch can't appropriate funds ...

And even GoFundMe won't pay for it. It's giving back the $20 million to donors.

I know he thinks he's always a winner, but not this time.
What about the millions who want border security? Just screw 'em eh?
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:23 PM   #5149
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What about the millions who want border security? Just screw 'em eh?
Everybody wants border security. But a majority don't want the wall.

You may be among the minority. But so am I. I think we should make Mexico our 51st state. Then we'd have a shorter southern border security concern. And if we must build a wall, a much shorter one.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:13 PM   #5150
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More obstruction of justice by President Wallnut:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/13/u...testimony.html
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:56 PM   #5151
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Everybody wants border security. But a majority don't want the wall.
Oh the tyranny of the "majority" as told to us by the media.

Isn't that why we have elections? Don't they have consequences?
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:24 PM   #5152
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Oh the tyranny of the "majority" as told to us by the media.
Right. Their mission is to persecute people like yourself.

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Isn't that why we have elections? Don't they have consequences?
Yes. The last one had consequences for Trump that he is attempting to overcome. Hence , his partial government shutdown over the symbolic wall.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:35 AM   #5153
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President Wallnut:
Well he's certainly a wall nut of some kind. He lies so much it's hard to tell.

Obviously he wants a wall. And he wants somebody, anybody, to pay for it ... except himself. To hear him tell -- and not his hidden tax returns -- he's certainly rich enough to pay for it. If he wants it so bad let him pay for it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:02 AM   #5154
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Surprise surprise--Trump's tax cuts did not pay for themselves in 2018 as promised.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/b...=headline&te=1
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:59 PM   #5155
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Surprise surprise--Trump's tax cuts did not pay for themselves in 2018 as promised.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/b...=headline&te=1
But it paid the rich and corporations, who care more about their bottom line than they do for our country. Obviously the tax cut wasn't for our government and/or country. So those responsible for the tax cut are complicit in bringing down our country and economy, and adding to our debt. Republicans have a track record of doing that. And I never even got trickled upon.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:48 PM   #5156
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"I have the absolute right to do national emergency if I want,” Donald Trump told reporters last week." Donald Trump

Absolute right? What, is Trump claiming the divine right of a king? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:20 AM   #5157
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"I have the absolute right to do national emergency if I want,” Donald Trump told reporters last week." Donald Trump

Absolute right? What, is Trump claiming the divine right of a king? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings
Ask the over 80 percent of evangelicals that voted for Trump if he has divine right?
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:39 AM   #5158
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Ask the over 80 percent of evangelicals that voted for Trump if he has divine right?
How ironic is it that so many Evangelical Christians, rejecting the ethics of the sermon on the mount, have embraced the Nietzschean transvaluation of morals in the person of Donald Trump as the blond beast who overcomes by animal cunning and cruelty the slave morality of the democratic herd?
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:22 PM   #5159
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How ironic is it that so many Evangelical Christians, rejecting the ethics of the sermon on the mount, have embraced the Nietzschean transvaluation of morals in the person of Donald Trump as the blond beast who overcomes by animal cunning and cruelty the slave morality of the democratic herd?
Well that's certainly a mouthful.

Christians who read their Bible know who the father of lies is. You'd think their Christian values would prevent them from embracing such a compulsive and obvious liar.

Sure, everyone lies sometimes, and politicians are known for it, but Trump has taken it into the stratosphere.

Therefore, Trump has no divine right, as he's of the father of lies. How Christians can support the father of lies is beyond me.

Jesus would say of Trump :
Joh_8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:57 PM   #5160
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State of the Union? Fractured.
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Old 01-17-2019, 06:06 AM   #5161
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Last night Trump's attorney Giuliani didn't rule out the possibility that members of the Trump campaign or administration colluded with Russia. Anybody and everybody can be thrown under the bus to save Trump. He's only defending Trump. Remember when Nixon took the step of admitting that a crime had been committed by his campaign but cliaming he knew nothing about it? It was the beginning of the end. That's where Trump is now. What about Trump's children? Are they expendible too? We'll soon see.
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Old 01-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #5162
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Last night Trump's attorney Giuliani didn't rule out the possibility that members of the Trump campaign or administration colluded with Russia. Anybody and everybody can be thrown under the bus to save Trump. He's only defending Trump. Remember when Nixon took the step of admitting that a crime had been committed by his campaign but cliaming he knew nothing about it? It was the beginning of the end. That's where Trump is now. What about Trump's children? Are they expendible too? We'll soon see.

That only flies while he is in office, once he is out he is fair game. The only leverage he has right now is to get a pardon from Pence and that is only if the trial is concluded in the next two years.


He can throw these people under the bus, get them convicted, and then pardon them. But if he does that his trial will go into the next term. One theoretical option is to negotiate for his children in exchange for resigning, and then have Pence pardon him. But Mueller and the Justice dept will have to agree.
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Old 01-17-2019, 08:04 AM   #5163
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That only flies while he is in office, once he is out he is fair game. The only leverage he has right now is to get a pardon from Pence and that is only if the trial is concluded in the next two years.

He can throw these people under the bus, get them convicted, and then pardon them. But if he does that his trial will go into the next term. One theoretical option is to negotiate for his children in exchange for resigning, and then have Pence pardon him. But Mueller and the Justice dept will have to agree.
Whoa, wait a minute.

Trump is guilty until proven innocent? Due process abandoned? Apparently for you guys.

OK. I'll settle for that. Since you're so enraged by him.

But where is Mueller's evidence? Nothing here? No "there, there" going on 3 years?

So sad for you guys.

Even media outlets are now bracing you for Mueller's "anti-climatic" report.

But be comforted!

You still have the constitutional freedom to call Trump a racist, white supremacist, anti-semite, xenophobe, wall-nut, etc.

They said worse about Jesus, and perhaps all Christians throughout history. Lincoln and Reagan and Bush too.

It's just what the left does.
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Old 01-17-2019, 08:38 AM   #5164
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They said worse about Jesus, and perhaps all Christians throughout history. Lincoln and Reagan and Bush too.

It's just what the left does.
Who cares what the left does? It matters what the law does.

But look what the Christian right does :

Michael Cohen hired evangelical university's IT consultant for $50,000 to RIG early online polls for Trump

The conservative "Christian" Liberty University rigs polls for Trump, thus joining the father of lies :

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-Trump.html
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:01 AM   #5165
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Who cares what the left does? It matters what the law does.

But look what the Christian right does :

Michael Cohen hired evangelical university's IT consultant for $50,000 to RIG early online polls for Trump

The conservative "Christian" Liberty University rigs polls for Trump, thus joining the father of lies :

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-Trump.html
Conservative Christians are now all guilty of breaking the law because a British Tabloid has accused two pollsters of "rigging polls."

Seriously?

And Trump is "guilty of colluding with the Russians" because Democratic operatives sent that Russian lobbyist to Trump Tower to meet with Jared and Junior, promising dirt but seeking adoption help?

You guys ought to start believing in something a little more reliable. Why not start with something proven and time-tested like the Bible?
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:00 PM   #5166
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Conservative Christians are now all guilty of breaking the law because a British Tabloid has accused two pollsters of "rigging polls."

Seriously?

And Trump is "guilty of colluding with the Russians" because Democratic operatives sent that Russian lobbyist to Trump Tower to meet with Jared and Junior, promising dirt but seeking adoption help?

You guys ought to start believing in something a little more reliable. Why not start with something proven and time-tested like the Bible?
We should believe the hiding man's Bible?
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:44 PM   #5167
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Whoa, wait a minute.

Trump is guilty until proven innocent? Due process abandoned? Apparently for you guys..
That is still a valid complaint for you, but in my opinion the weight of the evidence is piling up. Also, resigning is not an admission of guilt, only facilitating justice -- allowing the wheels of justice to turn. Anyone who is going to trial runs the risk of being found guilty and should weigh all their options.


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But where is Mueller's evidence? Nothing here? No "there, there" going on 3 years?
I think there has been a steady movement from the fringe to the center, getting closer and closer to the oval office. I commend Mueller for his lack of leaks and not playing a game with the press. Even so what we do know for a fact is compelling.


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Even media outlets are now bracing you for Mueller's "anti-climatic" report.

But be comforted!

You still have the constitutional freedom to call Trump a racist, white supremacist, anti-semite, xenophobe, wall-nut, etc.

They said worse about Jesus, and perhaps all Christians throughout history. Lincoln and Reagan and Bush too.

It's just what the left does.
Whoa! Did you just compare insulting Trump to insulting Jesus?

You are quoting my post, so in what post did I call Trump "a racist, white supremacist, anti-semite, xenophobe, wall-nut, etc"?

I have never called him these things because I don't think it is true.

A racist -- in my opinion he takes advantage of others, uses them, and abuses them. Who better to abuse than someone who is disadvantaged. So in that sense he likes to deport illegal aliens because that keeps the ones he employs in line. But that is simply my opinion.

White supremacist -- these guys are ideologues, Trump is anything but an ideologue. In his opinion life if a game, you win by getting the better of others, and you keep score by your wealth and fame. Once again, only my opinion, but he is amoral and will use anyone, even white supremacists, to "win". Just another example of how he uses others.

Anti-semite -- far too much evidence that this is not true to balance out the evidence it is. Again, I don't think he is motivated by religion, faith, or morals. Simply another group he can use to advance his own prospects of "winning". So an opportunist, not an anti-semite.

Xenophobe/wall-nut -- I think this is due to Trump doing a terrible job making a case for the wall. In my opinion after these last shootings the Republicans went to the NRA and said they had to do something, you have to give us something we can do. The NRA decided that illegal immigrants were fair game, 13% of gang violence is from illegal immigrants, they cross the border multiple times, so there you go, seal the border. When it comes to gun legislation to reduce violence this is the best the Republicans can come up with (still better than what the Democrats have come up with).
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:03 PM   #5168
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Conservative Christians are now all guilty of breaking the law because a British Tabloid has accused two pollsters of "rigging polls."
It was a Drudge link ... in fact go to Drudgereport right now and the Headline is, Did Trump Bribe Drudge

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And Trump is "guilty of colluding with the Russians" because Democratic operatives sent that Russian lobbyist to Trump Tower to meet with Jared and Junior, promising dirt but seeking adoption help?
Well that certainly deserves a big Bahahahahahaha

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You guys ought to start believing in something a little more reliable. Why not start with something proven and time-tested like the Bible?
Where do you think I got the father of lies? Did you miss that in the Bible? Jesus is about truth, not lies.
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Old 01-17-2019, 06:27 PM   #5169
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That is still a valid complaint for you, but in my opinion the weight of the evidence is piling up. Also, resigning is not an admission of guilt, only facilitating justice -- allowing the wheels of justice to turn. Anyone who is going to trial runs the risk of being found guilty and should weigh all their options.

I think there has been a steady movement from the fringe to the center, getting closer and closer to the oval office. I commend Mueller for his lack of leaks and not playing a game with the press. Even so what we do know for a fact is compelling.

Whoa! Did you just compare insulting Trump to insulting Jesus?

You are quoting my post, so in what post did I call Trump "a racist, white supremacist, anti-semite, xenophobe, wall-nut, etc"?
Sorry to quote you and then rant about Democrats. My bad.

But regarding your comment, "steady movement from the fringe to the center," I would disagree, using Mike Flynn's case. He was the first. He resigned under media scrutiny from deep state leaks for "lying to Pence." He was at the center. If there was a "Russian collusion," it must be thru him. He talked to the Russians and went there.

Yet for 2 years he has been strung along. Initially he was set up by Rosenstein and Strzok. Never read his Miranda rights. They informed him that he needed no counsel present. They wanted him "at ease." Even Strzok's report included Flynn was honest and straight forward. But Flynn had been illegally wire-tapped, and his rights violated, yet no one was made accountable. The DOJ/FBI top echelon broke all the laws, then get fired, and Flynn is still under suspicion.

This top "colluder" Flynn, though guilty of nothing, suffered extended prosecutorial abuse and misconduct. Though charged with no actual crimes, they forced him to into bankruptcy, so that he eventually pleads to lying, a so-called "process" crime, supposedly giving Mueller a "victory." For over a year they have delayed his sentencing, strung him along, for what? The first victim of a deep-state coup.

What about Manafort? Where's the collusion? He got convicted of tax fraud ten years before working with Trump. I bet every single politician in Wash DC could be convicted of tax fraud. Mueller spent $20 million to convict Manafort of not paying $1.4 million in taxes ten years ago. Seriously? How does that implicate Trump? Why don't Mueller go checkout the Podesta Brothers taxes. And the Clintons. That's just a start.

But apparently Trump hate prevents you from seeing the corruption here.

Is this not the greatest threat to our democratic process? I get it you hate the guy, but was he not elected by the American people? The Democrats called for impeachment before he even took office.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:25 AM   #5170
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Sorry to quote you and then rant about Democrats. My bad.

But regarding your comment, "steady movement from the fringe to the center," I would disagree, using Mike Flynn's case. He was the first. He resigned under media scrutiny from deep state leaks for "lying to Pence." He was at the center. If there was a "Russian collusion," it must be thru him. He talked to the Russians and went there.

Yet for 2 years he has been strung along. Initially he was set up by Rosenstein and Strzok. Never read his Miranda rights. They informed him that he needed no counsel present. They wanted him "at ease." Even Strzok's report included Flynn was honest and straight forward. But Flynn had been illegally wire-tapped, and his rights violated, yet no one was made accountable. The DOJ/FBI top echelon broke all the laws, then get fired, and Flynn is still under suspicion.

This top "colluder" Flynn, though guilty of nothing, suffered extended prosecutorial abuse and misconduct. Though charged with no actual crimes, they forced him to into bankruptcy, so that he eventually pleads to lying, a so-called "process" crime, supposedly giving Mueller a "victory." For over a year they have delayed his sentencing, strung him along, for what? The first victim of a deep-state coup.

What about Manafort? Where's the collusion? He got convicted of tax fraud ten years before working with Drumpf. I bet every single politician in Wash DC could be convicted of tax fraud. Mueller spent $20 million to convict Manafort of not paying $1.4 million in taxes ten years ago. Seriously? How does that implicate Drumpf? Why don't Mueller go checkout the Podesta Brothers taxes. And the Clintons. That's just a start.

But apparently Drumpf hate prevents you from seeing the corruption here.

Is this not the greatest threat to our democratic process? I get it you hate the guy, but was he not elected by the American people? The Democrats called for impeachment before he even took office.
No, not Trump hate which is preventing me. What is stopping me is this assertion that everyone is ganging up on this poor billionaire who also happens to be the President of the US and "the most powerful man on the planet". Ask yourself, why would Jeff Sessions, a friend of Trump recuse himself if there was absolutely no basis to do so?

I am more than willing to consider a "deep state coup" but the idea that they would drag it out for years, with the most powerful man, a man who is certainly rich enough to pay for a lawyer, a man who can easily get his side of the story out, sorry but that concept strains all credulity.

You remind me of the complaints during the whitewater investigation. They complained that they were being bankrupted, that no evidence of criminal behavior on their part was found, yada yada yada. The truth is there was plenty of smoke around Clinton to warrant an investigation into a fire, and what we found was a lot of seedy corruption. I don't accept the argument that "everyone is guilty of tax fraud", or "every politician is corrupt". I am happy we did the Whitewater investigation, on the one hand Clinton could claim no crime, on the other we realized Hillary was a crook. Likewise I am just as happy we are doing this investigation. Trump promised to show us his tax returns and I think that is a promise the entire US population would like to see him keep.

I do agree that there is a lot of Trump hate out there blinding them. Awareness is railing about how bad Trump is and how could anyone vote for him, "oh the hypocrisy!" Really, can any born again Christian justify voting for Hillary Clinton? Of course not. So in her case they argue you shouldn't use the Bible as a standard, but for Trump they should have? Who is the real hypocrite?

Democratic lawmakers vowed to investigate allegations published in a report late Thursday that claimed President Donald Trump personally ordered his former attorney and fixer Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about a potential real-estate development in Moscow.

The report, published by BuzzFeed News, claimed Trump directed Cohen to mislead Congress about when negotiations to launch a condo project in Russia's capital ended, as well as the extent of Trump's involvement in the deal. It later fell apart.

USA TODAY has not independently confirmed the report as of Friday morning.


If this is Michael Cohen as the source then it is a prime example of how these fat cats get away with the various crimes and why they hire slime bags like Cohen. No doubt they'll attack Cohen's credibility and it is difficult to convict based on Cohen's testimony. You always wonder why a billionaire wouldn't have an elite lawyer rather than this guy, they don't want someone who is elite or credible. Someone elite would not stoop into the gutter which is where Cohen operated, and you don't give someone credible your dirty little secrets in the event it is a "he said, you said".
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:01 AM   #5171
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How dare that Jezebel Pelosi deny the Great Man his Great Wall. Trump was ready to drop the wall meme that his handlers had created for him and didn't realize that to satisfy the Trumpers he must have his wall. Thanks to Hannity and Coulter for bringing him to his senses! So what if the wall is not really great. So what that his wall if built would be like so many so-called great historic remnants of the past, a monument to cruelty and madness. Something must be built that Trump can call his wall so that he can claim he won. Otherwise, he's a loser not a winner like he has always claimed. But, instead of making America great again as the Trump's handlers imagine, future generations will view Trump's wall as a symbol of the end of the American Empire.
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:53 AM   #5172
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No, not Trump hate which is preventing me. What is stopping me is this assertion that everyone is ganging up on this poor billionaire who also happens to be the President of the US and "the most powerful man on the planet". Ask yourself, why would Jeff Sessions, a friend of Trump recuse himself if there was absolutely no basis to do so?

I am more than willing to consider a "deep state coup" but the idea that they would drag it out for years, with the most powerful man, a man who is certainly rich enough to pay for a lawyer, a man who can easily get his side of the story out, sorry but that concept strains all credulity.

You remind me of the complaints during the whitewater investigation. They complained that they were being bankrupted, that no evidence of criminal behavior on their part was found, yada yada yada. The truth is there was plenty of smoke around Clinton to warrant an investigation into a fire, and what we found was a lot of seedy corruption. I don't accept the argument that "everyone is guilty of tax fraud", or "every politician is corrupt". I am happy we did the Whitewater investigation, on the one hand Clinton could claim no crime, on the other we realized Hillary was a crook. Likewise I am just as happy we are doing this investigation. Trump promised to show us his tax returns and I think that is a promise the entire US population would like to see him keep.

I do agree that there is a lot of Trump hate out there blinding them. Awareness is railing about how bad Trump is and how could anyone vote for him, "oh the hypocrisy!" Really, can any born again Christian justify voting for Hillary Clinton? Of course not. So in her case they argue you shouldn't use the Bible as a standard, but for Trump they should have? Who is the real hypocrite?

Democratic lawmakers vowed to investigate allegations published in a report late Thursday that claimed President Donald Trump personally ordered his former attorney and fixer Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about a potential real-estate development in Moscow.

The report, published by BuzzFeed News, claimed Trump directed Cohen to mislead Congress about when negotiations to launch a condo project in Russia's capital ended, as well as the extent of Trump's involvement in the deal. It later fell apart.

USA TODAY has not independently confirmed the report as of Friday morning.


If this is Michael Cohen as the source then it is a prime example of how these fat cats get away with the various crimes and why they hire slime bags like Cohen. No doubt they'll attack Cohen's credibility and it is difficult to convict based on Cohen's testimony. You always wonder why a billionaire wouldn't have an elite lawyer rather than this guy, they don't want someone who is elite or credible. Someone elite would not stoop into the gutter which is where Cohen operated, and you don't give someone credible your dirty little secrets in the event it is a "he said, you said".
OK, let me summarize your case against Trump, and why he must be guilty of something:
  • He's a "fat cat," and everyone knows they get away with crimes
  • He hired lawyers like Cohen, a slime bag, operating in the gutter
  • He's a billionaire
  • He should have hired an elite or credible lawyer (awareness said 99.4% of lawyers give the rest of them a bad name.)
  • BuzzFeed published another bad article about Trump -- the same outfit that printed the "Steele Dossier," confirmed by Comey as "salacious and unverified"
  • Trump never showed his tax returns
  • Clintons were bad, so it is justifiable to investigate Trump
  • Sessions was duped into recusing himself (Do you have any idea how much evidence exists that shows that Rosenstein, Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page, Baker, Muller, Weissman, Ohr, and others should have all recused themselves, yet did not to protect their own crimes?)
  • Trump is a powerful man
  • Trump is rich enough to hire lawyers
This is evidence to appoint a special prosecutor? Serious? I don't even see smoke.

And let's not forget that Manafort cheated on his taxes, Flynn lied to Pence, and Russians manipulate Facebook adds.
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:01 PM   #5173
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WILL DONALD TRUMP BE IMPEACHED? ODDS SOAR AFTER REPORT PRESIDENT TOLD MICHAEL COHEN TO LIE TO CONGRESS!

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...BSTPS1hITc_-90
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:06 PM   #5174
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OK, let me summarize your case against Trump, and why he must be guilty of something:
I think I'll summarize my case myself, thanks

1. Manafort admitted that the 2016 campaign discussed peace plans for Ukraine with Russian intelligence.
2. Michael Cohen, Felix Slater and Andrii Artemenko conspired after the election to present a peace plan to Michael Flynn
3. Manafort shared polling data with Russian intelligence during the election and Russian intelligence used polling data to manipulate the election.
4. Manafort owed $17 million to a Russian oligarch who he then shared “private briefings” with. That is classic example of someone who has been compromised.
5. Russians stole emails and data analytics from the Democrats and may have shared this with the Trump campaign. Colluding with a foreign government to win a US election is fraud.
6. Associated with these revelations are a number of lies that have been told in the process of the investigation.
7. We also know of a high level meeting between senior Trump campaign officials and Russian intelligence operatives at Trump tower.
8. To date we (public) have learned of 97 contacts between Trump’s team and Russian operatives and 28 meetings.

This is more than enough to justify Mueller's investigation. It seems incomprehensible to me that a peace plan for the Ukraine could have been negotiated without Trump, Ivanka, Don Jr., and Jared somehow being involved. Perhaps not all, but the idea that Michael Cohen did this on his own is not believable.
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:56 PM   #5175
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Who cares what the left does? It matters what the law does.

But look what the Christian right does :

Michael Cohen hired evangelical university's IT consultant for $50,000 to RIG early online polls for Trump

The conservative "Christian" Liberty University rigs polls for Trump, thus joining the father of lies :

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-Trump.html
Update :

New statement from Liberty University, where John Gauger is an employee, in light of the new WSJ Michael Cohen/poll rigging story. School says Gauger is an “outstanding” employee >>

https://twitter.com/mj_lee/status/10...nding-employee

Watchman Nee was right : Christians lie. They must today be Cretans. Trump is most definitely a Cretan.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:21 PM   #5176
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This just in :

Build that wall (of cash)! Trump campaign claims fundraising record with stunt promising to send 100,000 faux 'bricks' to Pelosi and Schumer

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...i-Schumer.html

Bro Ohio, you can send 5 or 10 or more. Then, symbolically, you'd be paying for the wall ... and could say,
Not Mexico, not congress, not republicans, not Democrats, not taxpayers, not GoFundMe, but somebody is paying for it.
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:48 AM   #5177
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WILL DONALD TRUMP BE IMPEACHED? ODDS SOAR AFTER REPORT PRESIDENT TOLD MICHAEL COHEN TO LIE TO CONGRESS!

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...BSTPS1hITc_-90
Thou shalt NOT bear false witness . . .
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:44 AM   #5178
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Thou shalt NOT bear false witness . . .
Primary reasons for impeachment are treason and bribery. If there was a quid pro quo with Russia concerning a Ukraine peace deal then that would constitute both treason and bribery.

We know that Russia worked to impact the election. We know that Trump campaign officials aided Russia by providing polling data. We know they met and talked together frequently. We know that they lied about this. We know that a number of these close confidants have confessed to various crimes.

That is certainly enough information for odds makers to begin giving odds on impeachment.
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Old 01-19-2019, 03:35 AM   #5179
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Thou shalt NOT bear false witness . . .
Oh. Look at you. Playing "gotcha". The matter is disputed at the moment.