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#1 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Excerpt
You have “the truth of the full gospel of God;” and you want people to hear it, but you don’t care for the truth regarding Daystar’s devastation; the factors of further decline; and the full picture and understanding of division. www.MinoruChen.com |
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#2 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#3 | |
Grateful Servant
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,782
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The problem is not Daystar. The problem is not opposition on the Internet. The problem is certainly not the saints "not getting into the ministry enough". Local Churchers are swimming in a vast sea of 25-50 year old messages from a guy who's been dead for over 22 years. The problem is that Local Churchers are starving. As Curious has aptly stated, LC members are "actually under-resourced". If Witness Lee's ministry was actually part of the New Testament ministry it would be doing what the New Testament ministry does - Feed, give life, be a light unto our path, show us the way of mercy, grace and peace. It would also reprove, rebuke and correct. And yes, it would bring us "the full Gospel of God". It is now painfully obvious that Witness Lee's ministry does none of these. Maybe Lee's ministry did actually function partially under the New Testament ministry back in the good old days of Elden Hall. I think there is a lot of evidence that there was a certain blessing poured out by God himself to his seeking ones in America and some other places. And this blessing was not created by Witness Lee or his ministry, but rather despite him and his well-meaning, fanatical followers. Church history is replete with such movements that had a wonderful and blessed beginning, only to become sick and lifeless for lack of following the real source of God's blessing - God himself, his Word and obedience to his Holy Spirit. All these have been replaced by a man and his so-called "ministry of the age". Minoru and others have called for revival in the Local Churches for decades. And Witness Lee called for revival for decades before him. The problem is that they are calling for a revival back to a time and place that we cannot not go back to anymore than we can go back to the time and place of Jesus and the original apostles. But we can partake in and participate in their ministry, which has been preserved for us in the pages of the holy Scriptures. We also have the promise of the Spirit of power, grace and truth. It is only the Word and only the Spirit of the living God which can bring revival. -
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Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24) |
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#4 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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I remember seeing a video a while back where Minoru went into some of the statistics related to the churches in southern California. It was eye-opening to say the least and it got me thinking as to why Minoru and the other blendeds just don't seem to get it. They have the information in front of them. They have the numbers. They see that a problem exists, but they can't (or aren't willing to) pinpoint it to its origin. For example, Minoru was around in the late 80's when LC members left in their masses, and he had somewhat of a hand in that. Later on the blendeds go quarantine churches/leaders in an entire region of the U.S. and they think nothing of it. Then they wonder why their numbers are down.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#5 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 992
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now |
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#6 |
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There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.
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#7 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 481
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I would say this is a big part of the problem, and I don't know if it's been discussed: WL made such a big thing, and rightly so, about not having a church "name", but just The Church, the church in xxx city, you call yourself Mrs. Jones but you're married to Mr. Smith, etc. Yet he had no problem brand naming his "ministry". Instead of being part of "the ministry", he made a divisive decision to create his own brand name, made a business of LSM, and sold it to "the church", and in fact insisted that no one not under his brand and control had any part in "the recovery". This whole process still exists today. How is God supposed to honor such a divisive organization/business. Seems like the way of recovery would be for those involved in LSM to repent of their divisiveness and that the local assemblies turn back to scripture and to the Holy Spirit.
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#8 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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The future success and impact of the LC remains to be seen, I certainly am not one to try to predict that. But based on the current state of things within the LC, the outlook doesn't look very promising. Here is why:
It simply does not work that way. Going back to my analogy, sooner or later, the LCM will have to realize that they can't continue on full speed ahead. The only 'release' that has happened is that they have lost much of what gave them the potential to be an impactful movement in the first place. Some in the LC might think that all those who voiced concerns or spoke up were just weighing the LC down. Quite to the contrary, these people provided something very necessary - the feedback the LC needed to improve upon.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
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And like the other "great again" slogan, the unanswered question is when you (me, whoever) thinks that was. If it ever was. Typically it is presumed to be some time before most can remember.
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Mike I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies) |
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#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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I’m still looking for the big “release”, prophesied in the late ‘60’s! It was portrayed as being the Church in Philadelphia...the church of brotherly love...none of which we had. We were clearly in Laodicea and didn’t have a clue. Nell |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 76
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So, it becomes Babylone the Great instead.
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Preach Effective Sermons or Effective Messages Now!!! Learn more about it here: https://bit.ly/2mlR0dl |
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#12 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
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The last sentence of the post being considered says, "I've left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint."
The person left for some time - now, we don't know this person's circumstances but most leave with disillusionment. What was promised never got delivered. So they go out, seeking the temporary comforts and distractions of the world. So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise. The perceived alternative is what many young people on this forum write of - giving up on God altogether. The assumption in both cases is that God is accessed only through LSM interpretation of scripture. Either it must be embraced in toto, or 'God' rejected altogether. But many of us who've gone on to read the Bible apart from it's current pen-builders (we have God in our theological box) have come to see that these are false alternatives.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,891
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RK prophesied that many who had left the Recovery would soon return! Then a few years later he quarantined the entire Midwest! Then he followed up with South America!
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#14 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#15 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 481
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#16 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Many longtime members have already seen through the sham. Some still stay regardless for whatever reasons. But then ever once in a while someone comes along saying how they were away from the LC and returned. Never is any good reason or rationale given. They just "returned." I tend to think that in such cases, these people simply weren't getting cared for in the LC. So they leave, then come back and everyone is ecstatic to see them return. So that cycle can be a little bit rewarding, especially when these people don't know what they really want.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#17 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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All too often, I saw people in the LC who were amid a constant cycle of meeting and then not meeting. I saw church kids leave, only to get caught back in, pressured to attend the FTTA, etc. What drives people back? Is it because they don't know anything else? Probably so. I don't see anything in the LC currently that would be a particular draw to make people want to be part of it. Of course, those who were there when the LC was in its heyday can point to such and such an experience that happened at Elden hall and they derive meaning from that. But what about all the rest of the LC members? What do they really have going for them? Unless someone has had particularly positive experiences within the LC, they are left trying to rationalize what the LC is not. And all too often it ends up being a situation where they stick around because they know nothing else, or they keep falling away and coming back because they think the problem is they can't measure up to the demands of the LC.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#18 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
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But the God of Jesus in the NT is different from the one taught by LSM. Jo Casteel's open letter agrees: when they read the Bible without LSM interpretation they realized that the God presented in scriptural text was fundamentally different from that presented by LSM. In the Psalms, a pattern of NT citations emerged in front of me, and I started seeing that the Jesus presented in the NT was seen as the fulfillment of the promised [OT] Messiah, the Righteous One sent to rescue God's chosen people, to be the Saviour of the world and a light to the Gentiles, and likewise the God who raised Jesus from the dead, whom Jesus called "Our Father", seemed fundamentally apart from the "Processed Triune God" in "God's Economy". If you look at Psalm 34, for example, it continually references the righteous v/v the wicked, their paths and their end. RecV footnotes dismiss this, saying there is none righteous, we're all depraved and justification is by faith alone. David, the author of this psalm, lied to Abimelech and pretended to be insane, said Lee, so David wasn't righteous. Case closed. But the NT citation of Psalm 34 shows Jesus as the Righteous Man: "The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken" (vv19, 20; cf John 19). A consistent and coherent pattern of textual referent emerged that I'd not seen when immersed in the LSM teachings. So I began to seek after Jesus there in the text, on the terms the text allowed. "Seek, and ye shall find", and "My sheep will hear my voice." Here's a post from an "ex-Church Kid" who grew up in the LC programme, then FTTA, who's now functionally agnostic/atheist. Scroll down the Introductions section & you'll see quite a few in this vein. Quote:
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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This is actually the fundamental flaw in the whole "recovery" concept: A recovery of the church would first and foremost be a recovery and return to the vocabulary of the scriptures, apart from all the garbage that has been added over the centuries. Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel- my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light. The basic concept of gathering together as the church in a city, of not adding other divisive names, the priesthood of the saints, and the open fellowship, which were not of WL's origin were great- but then his LSM business with its warped concept of God and Christ corrupted the sweetness of the church, and the true fellowship of the saints. It was no longer are you a believer, but are you a 100% follower of WL and LSM.
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#20 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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With a Catholic background and a fresh salvation, I was particularly attracted to the message of "Christ, only Christ" and the promised return to the "pure word" of God in the church in Cleveburg, OH. Simultaneously many fresh translations came forth to replace the archaic wording of the KJV. With my new life and a living bible, I was ready to join the "real" body of Christ. Except for the outspoken hatred of all Christianity and brothers who wanted to run my life, the early church life was wonderful, and almost "normal." As is often said by the power-hungry, "never let a good crisis go to waste," true to form WL used manufactured self-inflicted "storms" to slowly take over absolute control of all LC's. WL would use many other gifted brothers to build his empire, and went things went south, he would throw them under the bus. Thus every Recovery crisis would pass with WL appearing more exalted like some godman MOTA, and all the LC's forfeiting our liberties to him for his "protection" against these "ambitious" men out to deceive and "poison" us. WL had mastered these techniques in China and Taiwan and was ready to apply them to gullible Americans.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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I became a Christian in '74 and came to my 1st meeting of the LC in '76. Catholic background as well. I think WL started switching gears right around that time. An increase in LSM was an obvious decrease in the practice and blessing of the local assembly. Then by the 80's he really put the pedal to the metal and there was a departure of saints and some elders and a total sell out by others. I left in ''86. Can you imagine how all Christianity would have changed if the local church had remained local- with that local functionality? Instead, most Christian gatherings now are based on the pastoral business model, which also ripped off the Jesus people from great fellowship.
It's so unfortunate ones like Minoure don't recognize this fundamental flaw and minister to bring back the local church. It is high time for those in the LC lead to repent, turn and minister to bring back that which was from the beginning.. But it is hard to kick against the prods. They should have an old fashioned book burning and dump all their LSM material and count the cost of the materials. They should reject any control of LSM over the local assembly and return to scripture. The mere fact that they need to have "trainings" shows that the normal function of the local assembly has disappeared.. if there was a return to the practice of the local assembly, I think everyone would really receive A heavenly blessing (church in Philadelphia). Without this major repentance it is ludicrous to think there is going to be any blessing from God. |
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#22 |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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The centralized command & control the LC began practicing is a natural result of the flesh. It's such a big irony with the LC, because they preached against it and its evils. You may be right, that is, if local autonomy was protected and practiced, there might have been a much bigger impact on Christendom! There were some very good practices (e.g., open and participative gatherings), but with the overt centralization (and a highly flawed one at that) it just looks like just another fleshly denomination vying for power.
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now |
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#23 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,048
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Mike I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies) |
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#24 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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First consider the foundational ideals of those in the US who initially espoused WL's ministry as a co-worker of WN: Local assembly/churches each governed by local elders seeking the Lord to best care for their members while rejecting established traditions, and faithfully adhering to the N.T. pattern in the word of God. Localism without headquarters, eldership without hierarchy, all the saints functioning by the Spirit, centered on Christ, only Christ -- all watchwords for the blossoming movement. How did we get from there to here? Was it normal evolution, chance happenings, or an orchestrated plan of events? How did the members and local leaders agree to these monumental changes? Did we all just go along willingly? Here's what's troubling me. The pattern I'm seeing is the same one used by organized crime. Simply stated, goons are sent into "local" businesses and in the aftermath of the resulting dangerous chaos, "protections" from these same people are then promised in exchange for "local" assets and their liberties. In the resulting state of fear, this is then justified as the "cost of doing business." Study both the "Max" and "Ingalls" rebellions, and I cannot arrive at any other conclusion. Did not WL effectively use the tactics of organized crime to transform the entire movement from an "Antioch Principle" local movement to a "Jerusalem Principle" high-control headquartered movement? Comments?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#25 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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We used to say "so & so doesn't 'see' the church". Meaning, apart from all the history and movements in Christianity over 1900 years, there was still that thing " the church" and "the churches". Local assemblies of believers, gathering together as the called out ones, loving the Lord, the truth, the saints, fellowshipping together, growing in grace, keeping the word, breaking bread, etc., under the leadership of elders in the local assembly who understood and saw this. WL did a good job "recovering" this, and the saints seemed to flourish. Then we were introduced to a different side of WL- the businessman who saw a golden opportunity. His business rode on the back of the churches "vision" and in no small feat, put them all under the yolk of LSM. So the one who introduced meeting with no name took on a name and we can see, he himself lost the "vision". I say no small feat, because the elders and the saints should have whole heartedly rejected such a move. As we all know, some did, and we know the history of the whole fiasco.
Still, that "vision" of the church and the churches still exists, and still needs to be "recovered". I mean, what is the alternative? The pastoral business model of Christians filing into an auditorium and watching a pastoral performance, and a midweek bible study? No Thank You!. You would think ones like Minoru would wake up from the LSM nightmare shake off the disgusting error and repent of the error. Elders in lthe LCs should do the same: Dump the whole LSM entrapment and return to the scriptures and the "vision". |
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#26 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 481
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I started reading a secular book written in the late 60's called Power, author A Berle. He talks about the history of power- men ruling over men, positions, organization, use and misuse, rise to power, fall from power, gravitating to power, why people submit to power, what people get out of power etc.
Our Lord, Jesus, talked quite a bit about how the church was to be ruled, and the church structure related to power: the key elements seem to be humility, love, and serving. Sure signs of wrong church leadership are mistreating saints, love of money, love of position. Nicolaitianism was something Jesus hates! Yet all of this is what governs the LSM/LC enterprise. |
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