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Old 10-26-2019, 08:30 AM   #1
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Default Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

More specifically - does New Testament scripture teach that born-again believers are sinners?
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Why such a basic question? Is this a trick question?

1 John 1:5-10

And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Why such a basic question? Is this a trick question?
Does this passage say we are "sinners?" In other words, is this our identity? Yes we can sin, but does NT scripture call believers sinners?
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Does this passage say we are "sinners?" In other words, is this our identity? Yes we can sin, but does NT scripture call believers sinners?
If we sin, it´s because we are a sinner, there is no other option. But I guess if we are in our spirit, we are in the reality of being a son of God, not in the flesh, not a sinner and there and then we cannot sin.

"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer..."
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

I don't think I could do better than Raptor here. If we sin, it's because we are a sinner.

If we repent of our sins and believe in the Lord Jesus, that he died for our sins and rose again on the third day, then our "identity" is now in Christ. But we are still subject to our old man and the old creation until that glorious day when God will redeem everything - even creation itself.

We are sinners saved by grace.

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Old 10-26-2019, 02:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Yes we sin, but does that constitute us as sinners?

Consider these verses:
Quote:
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." "But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin." "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus . . ." Romans 5:8; 2 Cor. 5:17; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 3:5; 1 Cor 1:30
So we might also ask - How many natures does one who is born from above have?
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Old 10-26-2019, 03:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Yes we sin, but does that constitute us as sinners?

Consider these verses:


So we might also ask - How many natures does one who is born from above have?
we have a dual status, we are sinners saved by grace, so we are also sons of God.
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Old 10-26-2019, 04:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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we have a dual status, we are sinners saved by grace, so we are also sons of God.
Two natures then?
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Old 10-26-2019, 06:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Why such a basic question? Is this a trick question?

1 John 1:5-10

And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
Amen! If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. I think Stg is playing devils' advocate, not actually suggesting christians are sinless, right, stg?
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Old 10-26-2019, 07:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Two natures then?
Yes. We will have the sinful nature, the fallen flesh until we die or are raptured.
STG, you know this already.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:15 PM   #11
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

StG, are you trying to ask the question of "are we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because we are sinners"?

Which inevitably involves the example of a little baby to make the point.......is a three week old baby a sinner just a few steps into the game?

I'll make a few comments which may or may not pertain to what you are aiming for. These are my personal thoughts, and I haven't taken the time to look up verses to see if they are 100% sound.

1. Adam and Eve were created with not a fallen human nature, but a full human nature. They were not created with a fallen sinful nature, but a full human nature that had the equal ability to sin or not sin, without having an inherent propensity toward either.

2. When Adam and Eve chose to sin, sin thus entered the entire human race and man's nature became a fallen human nature. Both Adam and Eve fell, so their kids could only also have this same fallen nature.

3. Jesus was born not with a fallen human nature, but with a full human nature, just as Adam and Eve had at their initial creation.....He had the equal ability to sin or not sin just as Adam and Eve originally had.....and was tempted in every respect, yet did not sin. Amazing.

4. Because everyone after Adam and Eve were born with a fallen human nature, except Jesus, everyone has this sinful nature that inherently causes us to sin. It's my personal belief that we are sinners because we have the sinful nature which causes us to sin, not that we sin because we are sinners. You can't be something unless you have done it. You can't be a bricklayer unless you have actually laid bricks. You can't be a computer programmer unless you have programmed computers. You can't be a sinner unless you have sinned.

With that logic (that others may disagree with) in mind, it seems to me that we can say we all have the sinful nature and are born with the sinful nature. Every baby is born with a sinful nature. But can we say that baby is a sinner before it has committed its first sin? I personally don't see how. Eventually enough time will pass and the baby will grow enough to consciously disobey and commit its first sin, at which point it will be an actual sinner. Before that point I don't see how we can say it is a sinner, but we can say it has a sinful nature.

So if anyone is conscious enough to be asking or wondering whether or not they are a sinner, by that point, yes, they are sinner!
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Yes we sin. But find a place where Paul calls us now "sinners." He may refer to himself as the "chief of sinners," but this is looking at himself in a most humble and repentant light because of how strenuously he persecuted the Lord (aka His church). No where does he identify us as sinners who have been born again.

What is then presented by in the New Covenant as the born again believer's identity? First of all, we are told various times that we are dead - crucified with Christ; a new creation. And not to look at the things we have died to, but rather to who we now are in Him. So in many ways, we are told that who we were is now crucified and that our old identity has been taken care of as we have been baptized into His death. We may not feel like our old self is dead and we may sin. But is that the reality of who we are, or is it what His word says about us?

And after this death in Him there is the "much more" of Romans 5, that is, once He has dealt with our old nature we are now ready to be filled with His life. Our rebirth is His life coming into us to make us a brand new creation in Him! Old things are passed away - BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!

And we know that that which is born of God does not sin - so how come we still go off the mark so much? Romans 7 tells us that we do still have "the flesh" and that in it is sin and no good thing dwells there. But hallelujah, Romans 8:9 tells us clearly, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you." This tells us that you are not the flesh, but rather you are this new creation in Him!

So again, we may feel like sinners and want to identify with all the old thoughts and feelings as being who we really are (just an old sinner saved by grace), but what does the word say? "Put off the old (sinner) man" --- because that's not who we are! Think about it - what would happen if something had two competing identities and natures in them? It would tear itself apart. This is why the old nature is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross first. In faith we amen the word and say, "Thank you Lord my old man has been crucified with You! Help me, by Your awesome life in me, to live daily by this fact!"

If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Yes we sin. But find a place where Paul calls us now "sinners." He may refer to himself as the "chief of sinners," but this is looking at himself in a most humble and repentant light because of how strenuously he persecuted the Lord (aka His church). No where does he identify us as sinners who have been born again.

What is then presented by in the New Covenant as the born again believer's identity? First of all, we are told various times that we are dead - crucified with Christ; a new creation. And not to look at the things we have died to, but rather to who we now are in Him. So in many ways, we are told that who we were is now crucified and that our old identity has been taken care of as we have been baptized into His death. We may not feel like our old self is dead and we may sin. But is that the reality of who we are, or is it what His word says about us?
This takes us down that age old slippery slope that all those born of God cannot sin. (I John 3.9)

I may lie, cuss, steal, murder, and cheat ... but I cannot sin! And I got a verse to prove it!
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:27 PM   #14
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This takes us down that age old slippery slope that all those born of God cannot sin. (I John 3.9)

I may lie, cuss, steal, murder, and cheat ... but I cannot sin! And I got a verse to prove it!
Huh!? No it doesn't. Did you read the thread through and consider the verses quoted?

I mean really - show me in the word bro. Can you really say that God sees believers as sinners?
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?
For the same reason that he allows the devil to remain as "the god of this world". For the same reason he allows evil men to do evil things. For the same reason that he allows natural disasters. (Hold on California...we're praying for you!) For the same reason he allows little children to get cancer.

God has allowed all these things for his glory. Many times we just cannot see how God is glorified through these things, but the fact is that he is glorified in these things. One day we will see. For now..."Trust and obey, for there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey".

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Old 10-28-2019, 02:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Huh!? No it doesn't. Did you read the thread through and consider the verses quoted?

I mean really - show me in the word bro. Can you really say that God sees believers as sinners?
I think you are stuck on terminology.

Have you read I Cor 6.8-10? It's a whole lot worse than just being called a sinner.

Have you read II Tim 2.26-3.6? Sounds much worse than even Corinth was!

I think you are missing lots of verses, thinking they don't apply to believers, but only to the unbelievers.

After reading these verses, being called just a "sinner" is prolly the nicest thing someone could say about a believer.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?
Oh the POE! Not again!

The so-called "Problem Of Evil." We have spent so much time on this topic!
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:26 AM   #18
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STG, get out of your mind!
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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I think you are stuck on terminology.

Have you read I Cor 6.8-10? It's a whole lot worse than just being called a sinner.

Have you read II Tim 2.26-3.6? Sounds much worse than even Corinth was!

I think you are missing lots of verses, thinking they don't apply to believers, but only to the unbelievers.

After reading these verses, being called just a "sinner" is prolly the nicest thing someone could say about a believer.
Good verses (as they all are) with lots of bad activities! However, there is nothing in them that specifically calls or identifies believers as "sinners."

So the verse following your citation in I Cor 6:11 says, "And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Notice the past tense of "that is what some of you were. And then we were washed, sanctified & justified.

The point being this - who calls us sinners now? Is it God? NO! If you think you have a specific passage where we (born-again, regenerated, called-out ones) are designated as sinners, let's fellowship about it!
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Oh the POE! Not again!

The so-called "Problem Of Evil." We have spent so much time on this topic!
So, what is the Cliff Note version of all that - why did God leave us with the flesh?
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:06 AM   #21
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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So, what is the Cliff Note version of all that - why did God leave us with the flesh?
Our faith needs trials.

This thread proves it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:09 AM   #22
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The point being this - who calls us sinners now? Is it God? NO! If you think you have a specific passage where we (born-again, regenerated, called-out ones) are designated as sinners, let's fellowship about it!
"Evil" is pretty close to "sinner" or worse:

Matt. 7:11 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:37 AM   #23
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"Evil" is pretty close to "sinner" or worse:

Matt. 7:11 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Okay, but we are talking identity here. Who does God say we are - Sinners or sons?
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:39 AM   #24
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Our faith needs trials.
YES!!! In recent fellowship the flesh has been likened to building muscle. That is, when we lift weights, the resistance is what develops muscle. If there is nothing to work against - no development!

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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So, what is the Cliff Note version of all that - why did God leave us with the flesh?
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YES!!! In recent fellowship the flesh has been likened to building muscle. That is, when we lift weights, the resistance is what develops muscle. If there is nothing to work against - no development!

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Aha!

So ... you already know the answers to all these tough questions you're presenting!

Are we playing "verse-wars" or "verse-games?"
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:57 AM   #26
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Okay, but we are talking identity here. Who does God say we are - Sinners or sons?
We are sons.. but are we sinful sons or sinless sons? And if sinful what is the difference between that and "sinner"?
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:12 PM   #27
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Aha!

So ... you already know the answers to all these tough questions you're presenting!

Are we playing "verse-wars" or "verse-games?"
The question about "why we were left with the flesh" is a sidebar to the main one - are we just old sinners?
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:15 PM   #28
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We are sons.. but are we sinful sons or sinless sons? And if sinful what is the difference between that and "sinner"?
We sin, but just like I tinker with my car, no one calls me an "auto mechanic"! The Bible says we sin after receiving His life (and after being crucified with Him), but it does not label us as sinners.

If the Bible doesn't call us that and ID us as "SINNERS" - should we?
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:47 PM   #29
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We sin, but just like I tinker with my car, no one calls me an "auto mechanic"! The Bible says we sin after receiving His life (and after being crucified with Him), but it does not label us as sinners.

If the Bible doesn't call us that and ID us as "SINNERS" - should we?
STG, turn to your spirit!
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:37 PM   #30
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We sin, but just like I tinker with my car, no one calls me an "auto mechanic"!
If making distinctions helps you in this age, then by all means. But I daresay it won't work at the Judgment Seat.

Judge: "Away from me, you worker of evil"
Responder: "But Judge, I was only an amateur worker of evil, not a professional. I only tinkered with evil"

Here's what I see: we were sinners. We were called by faith and subsequent obedience to be spotless, holy, sons of God. But where any of us are in that continuum, probably not wise to guess before the Day of the Lord. Just take the least place, do your best, be merciful to others and God will be merciful to you. It's not complicated, really.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:30 PM   #31
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1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Paul says I AM (the foremost, worst, first, chief) SINNER
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:44 PM   #32
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1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Paul says I AM (the foremost, worst, first, chief) SINNER
And why should the apostle Paul make such a statement? Because on this side of the Judgment Seat it's the only safe position to take. When the Judge calls you higher, then go. Until then, no.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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And why should the apostle Paul make such a statement? Because on this side of the Judgment Seat it's the only safe position to take. When the Judge calls you higher, then go. Until then, no.
This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks! The terms God uses now are quite definitive for His many sons: New creation! Crucified! The life I NOW live . . . and so forth. Put off the old man and put on the new man. It is finished. Come into the realm of the Spirit where things are reality . . . not taking just our view and supposedly accurate experience.

So here's the challenge - find a specific passage in the NT to support the idea that born agains are identified as sinners.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:13 PM   #34
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This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks! The terms God uses now are quite definitive for His many sons: New creation! Crucified! The life I NOW live . . . and so forth. Put off the old man and put on the new man. It is finished. Come into the realm of the Spirit where things are reality . . . not taking just our view and supposedly accurate experience.

So here's the challenge - find a specific passage in the NT to support the idea that born agains are identified as sinners.
1 John 1:8 https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/1.htm
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:26 PM   #35
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This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> .
He did not say of which I was the worst, but I AM.
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Old 10-30-2019, 03:55 AM   #36
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Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks!
Either you are fundamentally misreading humanity's position in the Bible, or I am. When Peter met Jesus, he fell down and said, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man." I see nothing in his subsequent speaking, writing, or acts that nullified this.

Jesus refused the title of "good teacher", saying none is good but God. This was Jesus, who knew no sin, yet as a fellow human became sin on our behalf (yes, a sinner) that we might be freed.

We're called to be holy, as God is, but who can say that they have laid hold? If Paul said no, who can? (Phil 3:12) I say for the umpteenth time, we must wait for the Judgment Seat.

The psalmist asked God to save him from presumptuous sin (Psa 19:13). If Jesus took the place of "not good", per Luke 18:18,19, then how can we? If you insist on seeing the term "sinner" as different from "not good" then you're probably chasing down the same kind of rabbit trails of logic and reasoning that produced Nee, Lee, and so many others. Ground of oneness, anyone? Nee and Lee were masters of presumption, or I should say, they were mastered by it.

STG, you may be a better person than I, since I resonate with Paul's acknowledgment as "chief among sinners". But we've seen so many take a special interpretive stance, a personal revelation or insight, which then leads them and their followers off somewhere else. So please forgive us if your interpretation gets a doubting eye on this forum.

On the cross Jesus experienced the torment of the sinner, cut off from the Father. I fix my eyes upon him, suffering there, knowing that it is by this one righteous act that I'm made free. I dare not look at myself.
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Old 10-30-2019, 08:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Yes, we sin - a hundred times - YES! Does that constitute who we are? NO!

Let's look at some facts concerning what the New Testament says about believers:
  • Born again
  • Crucified
  • Dead to sin
  • Washed
  • Redeemed
  • Alive to God
  • Saints
  • Sons of God

"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Once we were sinners who could only sin - now we are Saints who sometimes still sin.

Sin now resides in the flesh. But we are not in the flesh, but in spirit. He left us with the flesh of sin for a purpose - to help us turn to Him, experience Him and be transformed by Him.

Everyone points out Paul saying he was the "chief of sinners." (I've heard this for years.) Show me where he says Saints are sinners! Would you hang all of your belief on this one statement of Paul's, or go by the myriad of things the NT says about us (of which just a few are listed above)?
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Just Googled "are believers sinners" and here are three things that came up - all good reads (and hopefully conveys it more clearly than I apparently am).

Q&A Are Believers Sinners?

Article: Saint or Sinner? Rethinking the language of our christian identity

And then this from here:
Quote:
I am writing this to you, my children, so that you will not sin; but if anyone does sin, we have someone who pleads with the Father on our behalf—Jesus Christ… 1 John 2:1 TEV

God’s goal for you is that you will not sin. Notice that the Apostle John does not say “when you sin,” but if. Yes, we all fall short, and yes, while we were still sinners God saved us, but that does not mean the realm of sin is where we stay. By constantly saying, “I’m a sinner—but I’m so thankful God saved me and forgives me!”we live with a sin consciousness. If we are living according to the revelation of grace, our hearts should instead be focused on a right standing with God consciousness. As a believer, you may still sin, but you are not a sinner.

Those who keep on sinning have never known [Christ] or understood who he is…. It shows they belong to the Devil… (1 John 3:6, 8 NLT)

The Amplified Bible puts 1 John 3:6 this way: “No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him….” The new covenant of grace empowers us to be free of both the penalty and power of sin so that we no longer habitually practice ungodliness. Yet sin consciousness will steer us right back into sin.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Paul warned Peter in Antioch, many years after he was saved, that he could be found to be a sinner ... Gal 2.17
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But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
Here Paul did NOT say that we could not be found to be sinners, but that even if we were sinners, then still Christ would not be a minister of sin.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:07 AM   #40
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Paul warned Peter in Antioch, many years after he was saved, that he could be found to be a sinner ... Gal 2.17
Here Paul did NOT say that we could not be found to be sinners, but that even if we were sinners, then still Christ would not be a minister of sin.
Good - you're looking! The next verse (2:18) says, "If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker." So wasn't that which was mentioned in verse 17 already "torn down"? I think Paul is referring to trying to build up that whole system of sin conscientiousness again.

So should we call ourselves sinners, focus on that as our identity and have a sin conscientiousness? Of course not!

(and I am not opposed to using the word "sinner" entirely, it's just that too often it gets used to refer to who we are. We are saints who sometimes sin.)
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:26 AM   #41
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Good - you're looking! The next verse (2:18) says, "If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker." So wasn't that which was mentioned in verse 17 already "torn down"? I think Paul is referring to trying to build up that whole system of sin conscientiousness again.

So should we call ourselves sinners, focus on that as our identity and have a sin conscientiousness? Of course not!

(and I am not opposed to using the word "sinner" entirely, it's just that too often it gets used to refer to who we are. We are saints who sometimes sin.)
And who are the "WE" here, in your quote?

Active members of your "assembly?" Those who treasure the Lord in a daily way? Those who serve God faithfully? Those who walk by the Spirit? Those obedient disciples awaiting His return?

Or ... those who are shipwrecked in the faith? Those who have decided to beat their brothers and sisters in Christ? Those who never repent?
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:37 AM   #42
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And who are the "WE" here, in your quote?

Active members of your "assembly?" Those who treasure the Lord in a daily way? Those who serve God faithfully? Those who walk by the Spirit? Those obedient disciples awaiting His return?

Or ... those who are shipwrecked in the faith? Those who have decided to beat their brothers and sisters in Christ? Those who never repent?
Just because someone seems down & out regarding the faith, have they been unborn? Did Christ leave their spirit? Did the old man, who Christ crucified, suddenly come back alive? Was everything Christ did for the regenerated one come undone?

They are then completely walking in the flesh ---> they are still a son of God ("it is of God that you are in Christ Jesus"), but living out of the sinful flesh.

By sight we might say "yes that person is 100% a SINNER!" but the unseen reality of who they really are is a different story. You might say that one has become just like a sinner, but all Christ has made them - who they really are in Him - is still true . . . they just don't see it (and probably no one else does either, except God).
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:40 AM   #43
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(and I am not opposed to using the word "sinner" entirely, it's just that too often it gets used to refer to who we are. We are saints who sometimes sin.)
Really? I have been a christian for 34 years, and most of the time I have referred to other christians and them to me as brothers, sisters, christians, believers, saints. I can´t remember the last time I ever addressed somebody, "Hi, sinner Bob, good morning". Or, "dear sinners, I have an important announcement".
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:10 PM   #44
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Really? I have been a christian for 34 years, and most of the time I have referred to other christians and them to me as brothers, sisters, christians, believers, saints. I can´t remember the last time I ever addressed somebody, "Hi, sinner Bob, good morning". Or, "dear sinners, I have an important announcement".
Oh gosh, that just sounds funny!!!

So that's good - we don't ID believers as sinners!

Hey, I know brothers that very occasionally may say, "Well I am a sinner after all" and I don't jump all over them. I think it's something the Lord has to show us. (although I have at times also pointed out to ones that "sinner" is not their ID, and perhaps also not as gently as I should have . . .)
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Old 10-31-2019, 03:41 AM   #45
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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If you think you have a specific passage where we (born-again, regenerated, called-out ones) are designated as sinners, let's fellowship about it!
And if you think you have a specific passage where Paul writes that we (believers) are no longer to be designated sinners, let's present that for fellowship as well. Otherwise, we're left with your inferences.

Unbelieving sinners and sinful believers both have the flesh of sin, and both suffer as a consequence. But no one here is saying there's no difference in their sufferings! We know that the weak flesh transforms the believer's soul. The point is, that to identify as a "believer" is to say that there is a difference in the life and it's subsequent suffering. Else why believe?

I get the concept you promote, which has attractive simplicity: terms affect identity which affects repetitive patterns of action. But the danger in assumed identity lies is in unfounded presumptions, and subsequently basing one's life on hopeful inferences as if they were truths. For example, Nee and Lee wrote treatises on the Song of Songs, teaching that it showed the fully transformed Christian believer at the end, awaiting rapture. But if you look at the actual lives of these two, I don't see them reflecting this. So their teaching actually became a mask for their continual sinful activities.

(And Nee getting sacked by the SCA elders for living with a woman not his wife is by definition "sinful". If you can't trust the judgment of local church elders, then who can you trust? They ruled on the matter.)

We already know Jesus' identity. My own identity or self-image is therefore of knowing who Jesus is, the Lord and Christ, and Saviour of the world, and then trying to reconcile behaviours to vision. Beyond that, I don't see benefit in terms, whether calling myself "occasional sinner who believes" or "believer who occasionally sins". The doing is what matters. And God will judge the doing.
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:14 PM   #46
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And if you think you have a specific passage where Paul writes that we (believers) are no longer to be designated sinners, let's present that for fellowship as well. Otherwise, we're left with your inferences.

Unbelieving sinners and sinful believers both have the flesh of sin, and both suffer as a consequence. But no one here is saying there's no difference in their sufferings! We know that the weak flesh transforms the believer's soul. The point is, that to identify as a "believer" is to say that there is a difference in the life and it's subsequent suffering. Else why believe?

I get the concept you promote, which has attractive simplicity: terms affect identity which affects repetitive patterns of action. But the danger in assumed identity lies is in unfounded presumptions, and subsequently basing one's life on hopeful inferences as if they were truths. For example, Nee and Lee wrote treatises on the Song of Songs, teaching that it showed the fully transformed Christian believer at the end, awaiting rapture. But if you look at the actual lives of these two, I don't see them reflecting this. So their teaching actually became a mask for their continual sinful activities.

(And Nee getting sacked by the SCA elders for living with a woman not his wife is by definition "sinful". If you can't trust the judgment of local church elders, then who can you trust? They ruled on the matter.)

We already know Jesus' identity. My own identity or self-image is therefore of knowing who Jesus is, the Lord and Christ, and Saviour of the world, and then trying to reconcile behaviours to vision. Beyond that, I don't see benefit in terms, whether calling myself "occasional sinner who believes" or "believer who occasionally sins". The doing is what matters. And God will judge the doing.
Well lest Ohio come on here and hit me with the "dead horse" thingie, maybe we should just let it go where it is. If you really want, we can go into many verses and passages about who we are in Christ, however, a few have been shared earlier in this thread. It comes down to experience vs. the reality in spirit. Paul certainly mentions things related to our experiences, thoughts and feelings, but encourages us to look to Christ and who we are in Him - a new creation. (aka sin conscience vs. Christ conscience)
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:25 PM   #47
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Well lest Ohio come on here and hit me with the "dead horse" thingie,
We're long past that point.

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Old 10-31-2019, 01:45 PM   #48
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We're long past that point.

And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:58 AM   #49
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

It's possible that StG and I were merely stressing different aspects of the same undivided whole (I won't include other posters' comments as I wasn't paying attention . . .)

Notice that I used the word "position", rather than "nature". I feel that our position before God should properly be as penitent sinners. Yes, even "chief of sinners".

But our position before the adversary is, "Be gone, Satan!" Yes, we are kings. Sin should not rule over us. I just don't think we should be presumptuous before the Day of Judgment.

But I may have hijacked a perfectly reasonable discussion with my own drum-beating. It has happened before.

Certainly StG and I would receive each other in a meeting (assembly, fellowship, 'ekklesia'), irrespective of how we use terms. Jesus is the Lord.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:52 AM   #50
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I think one of the implied definitions in the Bible for the word "sinner" is unbeliever, these seem to be used synonymously. Actually, the unique sin, the one sin that causes people to end up in the lake of fire under God's judgement is unbelief in the Son of God who died for us and was raised. So it follows to say that if you believe in the gospel, then you are no longer a sinner in that sense.

Nevertheless even as repentant sinners, redeemed people and regenerated sons of God, we still have the flesh and the self; the sinful nature still dwells in us and we do sin, and maybe not just occasionally. Actually, the more we go on in the Lord, the more His light should shine in us exposing so many things He wants us to confess and deal with.

I think the healthy view of our status is again, a dual status, basically we are saved sinners. If we emphasize one too much, we either end up in condemnation (on the side of "sinner", i.e. "I cannot go on, God hates me, I am worthless") or delusion (on the side of "saint", i.e."I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing").

So yes, we as saved believers who still have the flesh are and can be:
  • Born again
  • Crucified
  • Dead to sin
  • Washed
  • Redeemed
  • Alive to God
  • Saints
  • Sons of God
  • children of light
  • faithful
  • wise
  • prudent
  • overcoming
  • holy
  • blameless

AND/OR
  • evil
  • evil and slothful slave
  • worker of lawlessness
  • useless slave
  • lukewarm
  • wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked
  • foolish
  • dead
  • loveless
  • fornicator
  • adulterer
  • idolater
  • effeminate
  • homosexual
  • unrighteous
  • profane
  • defeated
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Old 11-01-2019, 08:13 AM   #51
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And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!
Perhaps a sign from heaven for us all?
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:09 AM   #52
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So yes, we as saved believers who still have the flesh are and can be:
  • Born again
  • Crucified
  • Dead to sin
  • Washed
  • Redeemed
  • Alive to God
  • Saints
  • Sons of God
  • children of light
  • faithful
  • wise
  • prudent
  • overcoming
  • holy
  • blameless
    Add
  • victorious
  • faithful
  • righteous
  • light
  • loving
  • long suffering

AND/OR
  • evil
  • evil and slothful slave
  • worker of lawlessness
  • useless slave
  • lukewarm
  • wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked
  • foolish
  • dead
  • loveless
  • fornicator
  • adulterer
  • idolater
  • effeminate
  • homosexual
  • unrighteous
  • profane
  • defeated
    And add
  • MURDERER!
  • SINNER
  • lovers of self
  • prideful/boasters
Unregenerated only have the fleshly list to draw upon; Regenerated ones have the choice to draw on either. We have the freedom to do so. God says, "Today I have placed before you death and life . . . choose life!"

So we can choose to have our source in the flesh, but that's not who we are. We are new creations in Christ!
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:59 AM   #53
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Unregenerated only have the fleshly list to draw upon; Regenerated ones have the choice to draw on either. We have the freedom to do so. God says, "Today I have placed before you death and life . . . choose life!"

So we can choose to have our source in the flesh, but that's not who we are. We are new creations in Christ!
The interesting thing is that you can have a regenerated person that goes back to live a sinful life, and an unregenerated unbeliever that lives a moral life. Outwardly, the unbeliever can appear to live the life of a believer, while the regenerated lives as a sinner. This is an interesting testimony of a genuine christian that fell into a very sinful trap and finally was rescued by the Lord. He says he realized he was "hurting Him", among other things....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-SjJNT_fiw
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:40 PM   #54
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The interesting thing is that you can have a regenerated person that goes back to live a sinful life, and an unregenerated unbeliever that lives a moral life. Outwardly, the unbeliever can appear to live the life of a believer, while the regenerated lives as a sinner. This is an interesting testimony of a genuine christian that fell into a very sinful trap and finally was rescued by the Lord. He says he realized he was "hurting Him", among other things....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-SjJNT_fiw
Yes. Of course, there is the Bema Seat of Christ where believers give an accounting of things done in the body . . . and living from the flesh means zero profit.

Good video and testimony - reminded me of my various experiences of how strong He comes in when I've turned to Him in utter desperation. "You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart." Jer 29:13
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:21 AM   #55
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:
  • In Adam, we were all sinners
  • When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
  • Our old man was crucified
  • The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
  • Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
  • Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
  • Our identity is in Him
  • Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:30 PM   #56
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:
  • In Adam, we were all sinners
  • When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
  • Our old man was crucified
  • The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
  • Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
  • Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
  • Our identity is in Him
  • Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)
The list again does not give a complete and accurate picture. It reflects our positional status, objectively, but it's short on the subjective side. We could be living in the opposite of each of these items.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:45 PM   #57
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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The list again does not give a complete and accurate picture. It reflects our positional status, objectively, but it's short on the subjective side. We could be living in the opposite of each of these items.
The "objective side" is as God sees us, right? So that's where our focus should be.

The Bible is not shy about talking about our issues and subjective experiences. However, we are exhorted in the New Covenant that the way to victory is to not look so much at those things and identify with them, but rather look to Jesus and who we are in Him!
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Old 11-05-2019, 04:35 PM   #58
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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The "objective side" is as God sees us, right? So that's where our focus should be.

The Bible is not shy about talking about our issues and subjective experiences. However, we are exhorted in the New Covenant that the way to victory is to not look so much at those things and identify with them, but rather look to Jesus and who we are in Him!
No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:59 PM   #59
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?
Raptor you are prolly a lone voice of these truths. Not only here but most churches.

I remember one time I was speaking in a home meeting (after leaving the LC) about confessing our sins. I was merely supporting comments from a book we were reading together by Max Lucado. A sister, supported by her husband, immediately shut me down in front of everyone, saying Jesus had already forgiven all of our sins, so we never need to repent. She emphatically stated that our role now was only to worship God, nothing more. I was effectively black-listed as a heretic, and not invited back.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:44 AM   #60
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?
Received. Good balancing word!

I think there is always the twofold aspect to spiritual things and the "cake" needs to be turned over. That is, there is the spiritual reality of who He has made us, and there is also our experience. (The ol' "fact-faith-feeling" train comes into play here.)

And doesn't confession mean "saying the same thing" (Greek - homologeó: to speak the same, to agree)? When we sin and confess it to Him - and not try to hide it - we are agreeing with Him that it is something off the mark, and that we need His help with. This opens the door for Him to come into that area of our life and change us. As 1st John tells us He is then faithful AND righteous to forgive us - because His one sacrifice did it all! We just need to agree with Him (and again, that includes being open with Him about our sin).

(and BTW - going to the other extreme is someone constantly confessing sin with an overactive sin consciousness! There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, because He took it all and His blood IS all efficacious. However, as Paul says in 1 Cor 10:23, while "all things are lawful . . . not all things are profitable." Therefore we must guard our hearts before Him and run the race well - not looking at our sin, but to JESUS!!!)
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:35 PM   #61
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Received. Good balancing word!

And doesn't confession mean "saying the same thing" (Greek - homologeó: to speak the same, to agree)? When we sin and confess it to Him - and not try to hide it - we are agreeing with Him that it is something off the mark, and that we need His help with. This opens the door for Him to come into that area of our life and change us. As 1st John tells us He is then faithful AND righteous to forgive us - because His one sacrifice did it all! We just need to agree with Him (and again, that includes being open with Him about our sin).
yes, and I confess somewhat of a smart alec attitude
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:04 PM   #62
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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yes, and I confess somewhat of a smart alec attitude
That means yer a Sinner!!! (oh yes, I do kill me!)
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Old 11-08-2019, 04:16 PM   #63
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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That means yer a Sinner!!! (oh yes, I do kill me!)
you say I am a sinner, I say I am saved,
you say I am saved, I say I am a sinner.
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Old 11-08-2019, 04:22 PM   #64
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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you say I am a sinner, I say I am saved,
you say I am saved, I say I am a sinner.
Ha - just can't seem to pin you down! (you must have the Spirit in you)
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:47 PM   #65
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:
  • In Adam, we were all sinners
  • When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
  • Our old man was crucified
  • The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
  • Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
  • Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
  • Our identity is in Him
  • Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)
The Bible does say (1 John 1:8-10, BLB) “if we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
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Old 11-27-2019, 12:19 AM   #66
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!
You guys are cracking me up. THAT is a picture of a dead cow. Too funny. And is there such a camp, or was that a joke?? I love that assessment, was it Arons? We stand before the Lord in confession of our sin, and simultaneously send Satan and his accusations away, rightfully so. I agree!
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:57 AM   #67
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Default Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

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The Bible does say (1 John 1:8-10, BLB) “if we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
Correct! Saints who still sometimes sin (and in my case, more often than not)!

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You guys are cracking me up. THAT is a picture of a dead cow. Too funny. And is there such a camp, or was that a joke?? I love that assessment, was it Arons? We stand before the Lord in confession of our sin, and simultaneously send Satan and his accusations away, rightfully so. I agree!
Yup! There certainly is a "Dead Horse Ranch State Park" here in Arizona. It's the wild west partmer!
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