He taketh the Wise in their own craftiness

[ZNPaaneah]

18Let no man deceive himself. If any man thinketh that he is wise among you in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness: 20and again, The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain. 21Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours; 22whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23and ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

This is one of the key take aways for me from my time in the Lord's Recovery Church of Witness Lee. I also think it is really important seeing the current political climate.

Initially I was going to begin this thread on the other side of LCD and avoid all references to Clinton and Trump. But then I saw the inauguration and felt it would be foolish to do that.

Based on some recent posts from OBW concerning the Box 13 scandal I realize that it is difficult, maybe even impossible for some to apply what happened in the LRC to anything else.

However, this side of the forum, moderated the one referred to as "the Moderator of the Age", has demonstrated an incredible flexibility in moving past their collection of hurts to see positive applications from our experiences in the LRC. If you missed it the threads on Bible vs Science, Evidence for Noah's flood, and Some require seeing the imprint of the nails clearly demonstrate that we are able to have mature discussions about subjects on which we disagree.

The question posed in this thread is quite simple, what does Paul mean in 1Corinthians 3 when he quotes Job by saying "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness".

You are very much encouraged to use references to Witness Lee, Phillip Lee, the Blendeds and your experience in the LRC to help us understand this. Likewise, since this is the radioactive side of the LCD you can also use more current references to Trump, Clinton, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

18Let no man deceive himself. If any man thinketh that he is wise among you in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness: 20and again, The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain. 21Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours; 22whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23and ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

The question posed in this thread is quite simple, what does Paul mean in 1Corinthians 3 when he quotes Job by saying "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness".

You are very much encouraged to use references to Witness Lee, Phillip Lee, the Blendeds and your experience in the LRC to help us understand this. Likewise, since this is the radioactive side of the LCD you can also use more current references to Trump, Clinton, etc.

This verse indicates that God "catches" or "traps" the so-called "wise" ones in their own deceit.

Hillary's deceptive use of a private server readily comes to mind. The DNC's treatment of Bernie Sanders, made public by Podesta's carelessness could also be an example.

I think we gave too much credit to Putin. Perhaps these ones were caught by God.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This verse indicates that God "catches" or "traps" the so-called "wise" ones in their own deceit.

Yes, but I was struck by the context of the "wise ones" that are being trapped and the nature of their deceit.

1Cor 1:11For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them that are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul? …
18For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.

I always read this as though "saying I am of Paul" was the fault or error of the naive believer, rather than also seeing it as "the deceit" of the "wise ones".

With our background in the LRC we are very familiar with the craftiness of Witness Lee and his deceit.

1. He lied about WN's excommunication to preserve the illusion of "MOTA" status -- that was deceitful.

2. He pushed the teaching of MOTA for what purpose? No doubt to sell books, to justify his claims that there were no other good Christian writers, to justify every LC being an outlet store for his ministry.

3. We finally came to realize that WL was the one who provoked the contentions. His entire focus on the triune God for example. Why did he make such a big deal about it when the conclusion was simply "it is a mystery". It was so that those very contentious quotes could help provoke the misunderstanding and contentions.

But, what then was the trap? When I read the verse in chapter three that He takes the wise in their own craftiness it suggests that God uses this craftiness to further his purpose. So then, how did WL's deceit, personality cult, and contentions work out for God's purpose?

6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: 8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: 9 but as it is written,

Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not,
And which entered not into the heart of man,
Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

If you are going to have a Christian ministry it is very important, financially, to have a big name. These ministers with the TV shows and publishing all need to puff up their image to promote their ministry. It is easy for a new believer to see this and think that they are doing "a good work", speaking to millions, etc.

But the context of chapter 1, 2 and 3 is that our wisdom is not of this world. In the world there is a wisdom involved in promoting and selling these books, TV shows, ministers, ministries, etc. But in chapter 3 Paul tells us that this wisdom is vain.

In chapter 4 Paul tells us: "that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other". It is like the Macy's day parade, with all of the various Christian ministers are big giant floats, all puffed up, spiritual giants -- MOTA. This was our experience. It wasn't because we were naive, but rather it was the wisdom of the world, it is how they operate. It isn't just how WL operated, but rather how all false prophets operate. You have two choices you can take the broad way that leads to destruction, or you can take up your cross and follow the Lord. Now if you take the second path you will need to sacrifice everything on that cross including your puffed up ministry.

"Puffed up ministry" -- isn't that just a term for the woman who hid the leaven in the fine meal? Isn't that a good analogy for what WL did in his ministry and what so many other Christian preachers do in their ministry?

Let a man so account of us, as of ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Here, moreover, it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

I always read this word "us" as referring to Paul and his coworkers. But now I see this word "us" refers to us. We should account of ourselves as ministers of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. All of us. Not just the few puffed up "giants". So then what does he mean that it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful?

Well we can really understand this based on our experience in the LRC. Was WL faithful to the NT when he sued Christians because they called him a cult? That is the context of this word, chapter 5 of 1Cor. Was WL faithful when he covered the sins of his sons? Again, fornication, adultery, etc. this is the context of this word about being faithful, it is the second half of chapter 5. Was EM faithful when he signed the apology letter to PL because it made WL happy?

If God's purpose was to find men who would be faithful then Witness Lee and Phillip Lee were very useful. God took them in their craftiness. God doesn't care for the vain, puffed up ministries with a million TV viewers, what He is looking for are the faithful stewards of the mysteries of God.

[Ohio]

Well ... obviously you have something in mind.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well ... obviously you have something in mind.

When you think about how WL "trapped" the saints in his deceit, how did that work?

He picks non qualified elders, gets them to go full time, after a couple of years they are virtually unemployable, and now they are trapped. Meeting halls are built for free but belong to him. Elders need his ministry to support the church because they are unable to feed and care for the flock themselves. The fellowship of churches is tied to receiving his ministry, stop that and you lose everything.

However you look at it, cutting the tie requires taking the cross. But that is actually what the Lord is preaching.

18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.

WL and the "wisdom of the wise" is just the Roman soldiers who scourge and nail Jesus to the cross. But to us it is the power to break those bonds of slavery.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness: 20 and again, The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 and ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

Witness Lee's reasonings are vain. LSM is vain. He is dead. He will now waiting to appear before the judgement seat. Everything he did was for us, if we receive the word of the cross. All things are ours.

The wisdom of the world is to enslave you. The word of the cross is power, it is wisdom, it is our salvation. Once you receive that word everything is yours. The guy with the false testimony, that is yours. The guy scourging you, nailing you to the cross, sticking the crown of thorns on your head, etc. They are all yours. They work for you, for free.

I think what really struck me is that 1Cor is supposed to be about the typical church. What we saw with Witness Lee, puffing himself up, causing contentions, making himself out to be the MOTA, etc. This is typical. It is the normal maturation process of a Christian to overcome this.

[ZNPaaneah]

Gerrymandering is where the boundaries for a congressional district is drawn to create a "safe" district that can be counted on for going Republican or Democrat. The problem is that the only way an incumbent Democrat can be unseated in one of these districts is for the opponent to move to the left. Likewise, the only way for an incumbent Republican to be unseated is if his Republican opponent moves to the right.

In their craftiness the party bosses gerrymandered the districts and in so doing laid the foundation for extreme and bizarre candidates to get elected.

Trying to "fix" an election is the opposite of "the word of the cross".

If Donald Trump is the death knell for the Republican party they were "taken in their own craftiness".

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Based on some recent posts from OBW concerning the Box 13 scandal I realize that it is difficult, maybe even impossible for some to apply what happened in the LRC to anything else.

You were trying to apply things happening in the LRC to Box 13? Really? Don't you mean it the other way around?

Otherwise you would be correct to leave this new thread here in alternative land. If your goal was to take something from the LRC and apply it to the election, the inauguration, etc., then it truly does not belong there. Over there, it would not be tolerated for more than a minute unless the political side was a truly good example of what was going on in the LRC — then return to the LRC. To need to make an extensive analysis of the election (or whatever) then spend a lot of time talking about that rather than about the issues in the LRC is far outside the purpose of that forum.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

You were trying to apply things happening in the LRC to Box 13? Really? Don't you mean it the other way around?

Otherwise you would be correct to leave this new thread here in alternative land. If your goal was to take something from the LRC and apply it to the election, the inauguration, etc., then it truly does not belong there. Over there, it would not be tolerated for more than a minute unless the political side was a truly good example of what was going on in the LRC — then return to the LRC. To need to make an extensive analysis of the election (or whatever) then spend a lot of time talking about that rather than about the issues in the LRC is far outside the purpose of that forum.

That is where we differ. As far as I am concerned the LRC is past tense. Everything that I needed to come to the conclusion that Witness Lee was a false prophet, that the ground of the church doctrine is heretical, that MOTA is heretical, that the current Blendeds are suspect and share responsibility with WL for what took place is already there on the LCD site. I am not interested in rehashing over and over again. Once the case was made and I was satisfied that it was beyond a reasonable doubt, which took place with my meeting with Ed Marks in NYC, then that was it. I understand that UntoHim and Igzy and others have a burden for other saints currently meeting with the LRC, and that is fine.

But I would like to move forward. I am more than happy to use my experiences and the things I learned from 20 years with the LRC to apply to my current life, concerns and questions. However, I am not interested in rehashing the sad collection of hurts that so often pop up. Ed Marks does not have the right to say "that was a long time ago" if he never dealt with it properly, but I do have that right. There is nothing more that has been mentioned or listed on the LCD website that I feel a need to deal with, repent of, etc. As far as I am concerned that was a long time ago.

I did not use craftiness, as a result I am not trapped. Ed did use craftiness. Now he is trapped. How does being an elder of a cult for the last 30+ years look on a resume? He can't go anywhere. If he confesses, if he deals with the sin properly he condemns LSM to sink, but he has no life raft. He is chained to a sinking ship. What they should be doing is focusing on eternity and not on the cares of this life.

[ZNPaaneah]

6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: 8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:

If you look at the refugee crisis that has hit Europe and to which Trump wants to put up a wall to keep out it is the product of an environmental crisis. Syria had a devastating drought, much worse than they were used to and Assad did nothing to help the people. They lost their livelihood. The same is true of a number of North African countries.

When you watch the news and see a madman drive a truck into a crowd, or a suicide bomber blow up some people, that is actually "climate change" right before your eyes.

The crafty have been able to control the debate so that their personal fortunes have not been sacrificed. Now they have stacks and stacks of green paper which will be worthless.

Why was it that Witness Lee attacked all other Christian writers? He didn't want any dollar being spent on books to go to anyone but him. This was not just greed, it was also an attempt to keep the saints in the dark. If his message is lifted from some other writer no one knows unless they have read that author.

What none of these understand is that the test for wisdom is to go through the cross. If you can't do that then everything you are doing is vanity. When the cataclysm comes it will all be for nought.

[ZNPaaneah]

Hill and Knowlton — Public relations firm hired by Big Tobacco in the 50s.

1953 — undeniable evidence that smoking was killing people. They said “You can’t deny the evidence, what you can do is cast doubt”.

From that point on the mantra of Tobacco executives was “It may be hazardous it may not be”.

Their Playbook

Manufacture Doubt

Question the science

Create controversy

Find friendly scientists

Attack the messenger

Shift the blame

Freedom

Delay regulation

This is the "wisdom of the world" that came to nought with Big Tobacco. But other industries learned from Big Tobacco, and hired the same people with the same playbook.

Flame Retardants

Find friendly scientists — Peter Sparber was a plant by the tobacco industry as the fire marshals legislative representative. They thought he had “volunteered”. What they didn’t know was that he was being paid $200 an hour to work for Tobacco. Peter Sparber convinced them to deliver the message that the furniture was to blame for the fires, not cigarettes. They convinced the government to legislate the need to put pounds of toxic chemicals into our furniture. Even if you don’t smoke.

Shift the blame — For example flame retardants. We have by far the highest amount of flame retardant chemicals in new born babies of any country in the world. These chemicals are very harmful to our health. They don’t work. But why do we have them? Cigarettes were causing fires in the 70s, the cigarette industry shifted the blame to furniture. If you read internal cigarette company documents they recognized fire fighting industry as a threat to them that they needed to destroy.

Attack the Messenger — Citizens for Fire Safety was a front group for manufacturers of flame retardants. Every time legislation came up to outlaw these chemicals (firemen’s union over high rates of cancer, Mothers concerned about breast milk, etc) they would bring out a famous burn doctor who would talk about babies being burned to death in their cribs. When journalists examined these claims they discovered they were false. The doctor said he wasn’t being factual he was being “anecdotal”. Also, he was paid $250,000 to testify. Also the testimony he gave wasn’t “under oath” hence he felt no obligation to be truthful. This kind of con game is run by every industry facing regulation.

Climate Change

1988 — Reported to congress that climate change was taking place.

Manufacture doubt — sun spots, Wobble of Earth’s axis, 30,000 years cycle in orbit, CO2 is good for you, etc. Total flip flop — Newt Gingrich in 2008 said we had man made climate change, by the end of the year he said “we don’t know what causes it”. Same with all the key Republican leaders like Mitt Romney and Bob Dole.

Question the Science — No consensus, pretend there is a “debate” on the topic of Climate change. Naomi Oreskes did a study on the “debate” and found there were 982 scientific studies published in journals, of those all 982 agreed with the basic premise and 0 disagreed.

Find friendly scientist — Fred Seitz and Fred Singer. These were the two key scientists promoted as prominent climate change deniers. Both of them worked for the Tobacco industry. Both of them were cold war scientists designing weapons to defeat communists. The debate is not about the science but about socialism, regulation, and see government regulation as a form of creeping communism. Watermelon — green on outside, red on the inside.

Create Controversy — How do they create the perception of a debate with 50% of scientists on one side and 50% on the other? This is how it is presented on TV. Instead of having representatives from different scientific organizations invited you invite one person to present one view and one to present the other. As a result you create a false impression that the other view is legitimate, fact based. So, to counteract this in 2007 scientists came together to declare a universal consensus on the issue. IPCC — thousands of climate scientists from all over the world. So in response to this the NIPCC was formed which came to the opposite conclusion. The CATO institute does not do actually scientific research, instead they create documents designed to mirror reports that come out of IPCC with the exact opposite conclusion. My completely mirroring the page layout, outline, etc, it appears to be an equally well researched paper. These reports are equal in length, about 500 pages. So now a politician has to read 1,000 pages instead of 500 and without a background in science how are they to discern one from the other? They also have a petition signed by “31,000 scientists” claiming to disagree with Climate change. Signatories include the Spice girls, Michael J Fox, Charles Darwin, etc. The petition has been completely discredited. Yet, it is continually cited by politicians saying “31,000 scientists” disagree.

Attack the Messenger — Mocked and ridiculed James Hansen. Communication is about sales, leave it blank and people fill in with their own bias. Named names, went after individuals. In 1995 the IPCC published a report saying there was a discernible human influence. The author of this report was threatened with the ugliest, nastiest letters and emails. If the world begins to act based on the science there is a massive attack unleashed on the authors of the reports. Climate gate in 2009 during the Copenhagen accord was manufactured to look like there was some kind of fraud. Three investigations have found nothing. But it caused gridlock, distraction and confusion and overall it has delayed the regulation.

Delay Regulation — it has become clear since 2000 that we have climate change, yet what have we done? Scientists are continually gathering data and reassessing the conclusions based on the latest data. Lawyers on the other hand have clients and present evidence with a goal not of finding the truth but of defending the agenda of their client. Think tanks have taken up the issue of climate change, not from the point of view of science but of the point of view of politics. The think tanks don’t do the science, rather they act as a middle man to gather the arguments for the politicians based on what the politicians want to be true. So, it isn’t warming, or it is warming but not by man, or ultimately, of course it is man made warming but the cost to do something is too great. So the president of the George C Marshall think tank was a registered lobbyist for Exxon Mobil. Exxon Mobil funds 30 different organizations to release disinformation. These think tanks are employed to crank out Op Ed pieces every single day.

Freedom — This strategy was first introduced with cigarettes, if they can tell you you can’t smoke, what will they tell you tomorrow? So this strategy has also been used on global warming. They are not concerned with the science, rather they want a “free market” solution. By itself it isn’t bad, but when combined with the disinformation campaign also being run it isn’t a level playing field.


2016 Presidential Election

So then, what was this last presidential election really about? Exxon Mobil and Russia signed a deal to develop oil and gas in the Russian arctic. Exxon Mobil paid people to tell us that climate change was not taking place, but because of the melting of ice cap they can now drill. Saying no is why Clinton was removed and Trump was installed.

Here is the irony, you don’t want big government, you don’t want regulation, you want free market. Well, as a result of climate change you will get a much bigger government, bigger walls, shutting down the borders, protectionism, climate refugees, bigger military, higher tax rate, higher cost of living, etc. This is the problem of "being of Paul or being of Peter". Yes, free market is good if you have a level playing field with everyone having access to the truth. Yes, small government is good, but if your "deregulation" is going to lead to catastrophic climate change, climate refugees, terrorists organizations, military buildup, and not just a "gated community" but a "gated country" with guards and barbed wire at the borders, then that is not small government.

If this was really a free market we would be completely embracing solar and wind, both of which are far cheaper when given the full tally of the costs. The price per watt of solar in 1977 was $76, in 2015 it was $0.57. It wasn't economic 30+ years ago, it is today.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: 8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:

If you look at the refugee crisis that has hit Europe and to which Trump wants to put up a wall to keep out it is the product of an environmental crisis. Syria had a devastating drought, much worse than they were used to and Assad did nothing to help the people. They lost their livelihood. The same is true of a number of North African countries.

When you watch the news and see a madman drive a truck into a crowd, or a suicide bomber blow up some people, that is actually "climate change" right before your eyes.

The crafty have been able to control the debate so that their personal fortunes have not been sacrificed. Now they have stacks and stacks of green paper which will be worthless.

Why was it that Witness Lee attacked all other Christian writers? He didn't want any dollar being spent on books to go to anyone but him. This was not just greed, it was also an attempt to keep the saints in the dark. If his message is lifted from some other writer no one knows unless they have read that author.

What none of these understand is that the test for wisdom is to go through the cross. If you can't do that then everything you are doing is vanity. When the cataclysm comes it will all be for nought.

Most saints came from other denominations anyway, so I don't think that was Lee's intention to keep people in the dark.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Most saints came from other denominations anyway, so I don't think that was Lee's intention to keep people in the dark.

Keeping people in the dark is how it works. Whenever someone was excommunicated you were strictly forbidden to not talk to them. They took "tell it to the church" to mean tell the saints the judgement of excommunication. The church was never involved in what was the cause of that judgement. This is all tied to tribalism, I'm of Paul, I'm of Peter. This is why Jesus says that there are some in Thyatira who "have not known the deep things of Satan".

For example, consider how the Catholic church was able to hide the fact that 6% of their priests were pedophiles.

1st -- they preyed on the most vulnerable -- poor, fatherless, children.

As a result of this abuse these children often became troubled, alcoholics, drug users, suicidal. So they were less credible. Coming from the bad side of town they didn't have much allies with the police. So the abuse was from someone fully networked with the most powerful tribe in the community and they preyed on the outcasts.

2nd -- The law gave the statute of limitations as 3 years. Since these were children who didn't know the law, were ashamed, felt guilty, disenfranchised, these cases were almost always past the statute of limitations.

3rd -- charitable suits were limited to $20,000 in damages of which the lawyer got a third.

In this situation those that did bring suit would agree to mediation with the church which kept everything secret and off the records.

4th -- Priests were reassigned from one parish to the next, shuffled around.

When stuff did make it into the public record as it did in one case in Boston the documents were removed from the court house records. Since "good catholics" worked in every institution it is easy to think that they controlled everything. Those that tried to bring the truth to light felt that there was this secret, hidden group that controlled everything.

This was an example of tribalism at its worst. They were crafty. But as we know they were taken in their craftiness. When the story finally does break it isn't about 6% of priests being pedophiles, it is about the Cardinals and Bishops systematically hiding this sin and perpetuating it.

When they shined a spotlight on this the Boston Globe discovered 70 priests that Cardinal Law knew about. After publishing the stories the flood gates were opened and they learned of 249 priests in that Archdiocese. This in turn caused a further unraveling discovering major abuse in 200 other cities by Catholic priests. The wise in their craftiness try to operate in the dark, once the light is turned on you can see how completely rotten it is.