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Old 08-20-2018, 01:08 AM   #1
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Thumbs down Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.
What Brother Lee actually taught:

"For our spirit to be used and exercised in prayer is surely healthy for our spiritual life. But for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind. Our mind should be set on our spirit (Romans 8:6) and should never be detached from it, even in our daily walk, needless to say in our prayer. Our prayer must be from our God-contacted and God-contacting spirit and through our sober and understanding mind, with clear and understandable words, that our prayer may touch God, nourish and strengthen ourselves, and build up others. " 1 Corinthians 14:14 footnote 1 Recovery Version
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.
Well said.

No Christian minister in his right mind would ever teach people to "get out of their mind."
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
What Brother Lee actually taught:
"For our spirit to be used and exercised in prayer is surely healthy for our spiritual life. But for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind. Our mind should be set on our spirit (Romans 8:6) and should never be detached from it, even in our daily walk, needless to say in our prayer. Our prayer must be from our God-contacted and God-contacting spirit and through our sober and understanding mind, with clear and understandable words, that our prayer may touch God, nourish and strengthen ourselves, and build up others. " 1 Corinthians 14:14 footnote 1 Recovery Version
Yet there's this:

Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.

-o-
There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....


We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.


We didn't make this up. Witness Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.

When brother Drake says "this is what Lee really taught" and quotes an LSM book for us, what Drake really means is "this is what Princeton-educated Ron Kangas, the chief editor at LSM, taught us in this book."
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Aside from what we might find on a printed page, offered as fig leaves for uneasy consciences, let's look at what was actually practiced:

In one place, the 'oracle of God' taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of hundreds of people, and in the many testimonies that followed, nobody got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, it seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain, please?"

Hundreds and even thousands would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Yet there's this:
Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.

-o-
There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....


We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.
.
Those are great songs... still sing them.

And yes, those are applicable because the challenge was and is not exercising the mind... we do that naturally as soon as we wake up in the morning.... ... rather, the challenge was and is exercising the spirit and setting the mind on the spirit. There is a life that is deeper than our mind! He's in our spirit!

Brother Lee never taught to abandon the mind.... quite the contrary... as can be seen in the footnote I cited for public consumption... to the same "public" that sings those songs (that he, just to be precise, did not actually pen, did he?) he states clearly we must engage the mind BUT..... big BUT..... not by itself... but set on the spirit.

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Old 08-20-2018, 01:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
Aside from what we might find on a printed page, offered as fig leaves for uneasy consciences, let's look at what was actually practiced:

In one place, the 'oracle of God' taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of hundreds of people, and in the many testimonies that followed, nobody got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, it seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain, please?"

Hundreds and even thousands would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.
....and what, pray tell, has that to do with this topic?.. ... you cite something irrelevant to the subject and then tie it in at the end thinking that it corroborates your argument?

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Old 08-20-2018, 02:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
....and what, pray tell, has that to do with this topic?.. ... you cite something irrelevant to the subject and then tie it in at the end thinking that it corroborates your argument?
Why did Lee teach so poorly & nobody notices? Because they're blinded. Their brains have been turned off by the incessant chanting & rhythmic shouting. They're mesmerized, stupified.

How come the movement started by women (Ruth Lee & Elizabeth Fischbacher transcribed & edited his spoken messages into printed book form) doesn't allow women as blended co-workers, and no one notices? Because they're brain-dead is why.

Why does no one notice that a supposed ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) doesn't reconcile with anyone, acting as if it were merely a guanxi network? Because they're trained (conditioned) not to notice anything.

Seems pretty obvious what the point was - irrespective of what's put out on the printed page, one isn't allowed to think in the LC.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Why did Lee teach so poorly & nobody noticed? Because they were blinded. Their brains were turned off by the rhythmic shouting.

How come the movement started by women (Ruth Lee & Elizabeth Fischbacher transcribed & edited his spoken messages into printed book form) doesn't allow women as blended co-workers, and no one notices? Because they're brain-dead is why.

Why does no one notice a supposed ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) that won't reconcile with anyone, acting as if it were merely a guanxi network? Because they're trained (conditioned) not to notice anything.

Seems pretty obvious what the point was - irrespective of what's published on the printed page, one isn't allowed to think in the LC.
Those items are not relevant to this topic either aron..... just standard talking points you use in most threads....

However, calling brothers in the Lord "brain-dead" does not seem far removed from those solemnly warned in Matthew 5:22-25. Hope you are prepared for that.

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Old 08-20-2018, 03:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind.
What Drake quoted "for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind" , it proves that this is a false statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies.
Here Truthseeker has confused matters of the flesh/spirit with practical instructions to the Corinthians about speaking and praying in foreign languages. In the Recovery everyone uses languages that others understand (or can learn) so Paul's words to the Corinthians do not apply.

To prove this we only need to consider the context which is speaking unintelligible words in church:

1 Cor 14:9 So also you, unless you give with the tongue a word easy to understand, how will what is being said be known?

"Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues." - only if they are unintelligible foreign words, which in the recovery they are not.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?
What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??
Thread title says, "Lee's erroneous teaching, being in spirit & out of mind". You quoted Lee encouraging people to use their minds: I'm glad to raise questions whose answers seem to indicate otherwise. Or do you have a better answer? Seems to me, the best answer is, "Because in the LC, they've been conditioned not to think". Do you have another answer?

Here's another question: why is the supposed apostle of the age unqualified to be an elder in a local assembly per Paul's letter to Titus (1:6) and nobody in the LC seems to notice?

Until someone answers differently, I'll assume it's because no one there is able to think. Doesn't matter how big the elephant is in the room - nobody can notice it. In fact you seem bothered that I do notice - why is that? If the shoe fits, wear it.

Actually there are two possibilities, upon reflection.

1. Because nobody can think in the LC.
2. They actually can think but have to appear brainless, otherwise they might attract attention; you know, being seen as "independent" and all. Having an opinion. . . might get one marked out - a small step from there to being labeled "rebellious".

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Thread title says, "Lee's erroneous teaching, being in spirit & out of mind". You quoted Lee encouraging people to use their minds: I'm glad to raise questions whose answers indicate otherwise. Or do you have a better answer? Seems to me, the best answer is, "Because in the LC, they've been conditioned not to think". Do you have a better answer?

Here's another question: why is the supposed apostle of the age unqualified to be an elder in a local assembly per Paul's letter to Titus (1:6) and nobody in the LC seems to notice?

Until someone fills in the blanks, I'll assume it's because nobody there is able to think. Doesn't matter how big the elephant is in the room. Nobody can notice it. In fact you seem bothered that I do - why is that? If the shoe fits, wear it.

Actually there are two possibilities, upon reflection.

1. Because nobody can think in the LC.
2. They actually can think but have to appear brainless, otherwise they might attract attention; you know, being seen as "independent" and all. Having an opinion. . . might get one marked out - a small step from there to being labeled "rebellious".
From my experience, neither of those are accurate.

All think and none I know of pretend not to. I don't think you think that either. It's just a convenient out for you.. sorta like.... oh, they're all just brain-dead unlike me, an enlightened fellow, 'nuff said...

At this point aron, your not even presenting a logical argument much less a compelling one. Admittedly, my expectations were recently reset about your contribution so I kind of got them up... seeing how you were going to bring in scholars, and languages, and historical perspectives throughout church history.. that sort of thing... but you haven't and probably never will but appear to be content that your contribution in these threads is boiled down to derogatory name-calling of brothers and cutesy unsubstantiated catch phrases which are irrelevant to the topics under discussion.

That is just my observation, but it bears no significance to you because I am one of those "brain-dead" local churchers.... and yet you will have your day in court, so to speak, to present your "if the shoe fits" argument before the Lord. I just hope you see your way through it before that day and that Matt 5:22 does not become your reality.

I really hope not brother.

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Old 08-20-2018, 05:59 PM   #16
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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From my experience, neither of those are accurate.

All think and none I know of pretend not to. I don't think you think that either. It's just a convenient out for you.. sorta like.... oh, they're all just brain-dead unlike me, an enlightened fellow, 'nuff said...

At this point aron, your not even presenting a logical argument much less a compelling one. Admittedly, my expectations were recently reset about your contribution so I kind of got them up... seeing how you were going to bring in scholars, and languages, and historical perspectives throughout church history.. that sort of thing... but you haven't and probably never will but appear to be content that your contribution in these threads is boiled down to derogatory name-calling of brothers and cutesy unsubstantiated catch phrases which are irrelevant to the topics under discussion.

That is just my observation, but it bears no significance to you because I am one of those "brain-dead" local churchers.... and yet you will have your day in court, so to speak, to present your "if the shoe fits" argument before the Lord. I just hope you see your way through it before that day and that Matt 5:22 does not become your reality.

I really hope not brother.

Drake
I was SO excited to agree with Drake after reading his first sentence, but then he went off the rails again.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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I was SO excited to agree with Drake after reading his first sentence, but then he went off the rails again.
You were? Why, I didn’t know that LofT... after your private note asking me to take a vacation from the forum I kinda got the impression you wanted to shut me up. No?

So, you think I am going off the rails because I caution, or warn if you prefer, my brother Aron from the danger of punishment for his calling brothers “brain-dead” according to the solemn warning in Matt 5:22. So, I’m confused... either you don’t care enough about Aron to also warn him, or perhaps you support brother Aron in his rants against brothers.... which is it?

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Old 08-20-2018, 06:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Brother Lee never taught to abandon the mind.... quite the contrary... as can be seen in the footnote I cited for public consumption... to the same "public" that sings those songs (that he, just to be precise, did not actually pen, did he?) he states clearly we must engage the mind BUT..... big BUT..... not by itself... but set on the spirit.

Drake
Lee taught us repeatedly not to have any opinion. The only way not to have any opinion is to abandon our mind, our thinking facility. Here's what the dictionary says about opinions:

Quote:
Merriam-Webster definition of OPINION:
  • 1: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
  • 2: approval, esteem
  • 3: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
  • 4: a generally held view
Without opinions, a person is not a person. A person is a vegetable. Man is a constitution of opinions based on training, education, and life experiences. Who would marry a girl/guy without any opinions? Who would employ a person without opinions?

To have no opinion is not to think, not to use your mind, not to have the ability to reason. The Lord told Israel, "Come let us reason together." Obviously the Lord created us with a mind to reason, to think, and to develop opinions -- develop the right opinions about God, about the Bible, about life, etc.

What we should really be asking is why. Why did Lee want followers who did not think? What was he hiding? What did he not want us to know?
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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You were? Why, I didn’t know that LofT... after your private note asking me to take a vacation from the forum I kinda got the impression you wanted to shut me up. No?

So, you think I am going off the rails because I caution, or warn if you prefer, my brother Aron from the danger of punishment for his calling brothers “brain-dead” according to the solemn warning in Matt 5:22. So, I’m confused... either you don’t care enough about Aron to also warn him, or perhaps you support brother Aron in his rants against brothers.... which is it?

Drake
Shut you up Drake? What would the world do without you?

Worried about you man. Hit me up on PM and we can chat
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You were? Why, I didn’t know that LofT... after your private note asking me to take a vacation from the forum I kinda got the impression you wanted to shut me up. No?

So, you think I am going off the rails because I caution, or warn if you prefer, my brother Aron from the danger of punishment for his calling brothers “brain-dead” according to the solemn warning in Matt 5:22. So, I’m confused... either you don’t care enough about Aron to also warn him, or perhaps you support brother Aron in his rants against brothers.... which is it?

Drake
Witness Lee made a career ranting about brothers. Where have you been?
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:20 PM   #21
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Shut you up Drake? What would the world do without you?

Worried about you man. Hit me up on PM and we can chat
Here is fine LofT. Nothing to conceal... say your peace and the reader can decide what to think on its own merits.

Thanks
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.
Truthseeker, this is so good! 1 kings 3 v9 give therefore Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this Your so great a people.

This word is His word to his servants...and Lees' teaching just does not match....
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Why did Watchman Nee draw on 3,000 "christian classics" but the LC speaker on Sunday morning has to speak verbatim from this week's HWFMR?

If I notice this discrepancy how do you know if my mind is guided by the spirit or not? It seems that in the subjective its world of the LC, that is up to the subjective impression of the Big brother. If he likes your question, you are "in spirit"
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:16 AM   #24
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Why did Watchman Nee draw on 3,000 "christian classics" but the LC speaker on Sunday morning has to speak verbatim from this week's HWFMR?

If I notice this discrepancy how do you know if my mind is guided by the spirit or not? It seems that in the subjective its world of the LC, that is up to the subjective impression of the Big brother. If he likes your question, you are "in spirit"
So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

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Old 08-21-2018, 06:57 AM   #25
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Lee taught us repeatedly not to have any opinion. The only way not to have any opinion is to abandon our mind, our thinking facility.

Without opinions, a person is not a person. A person is a vegetable. Man is a constitution of opinions based on training, education, and life experiences. Who would marry a girl/guy without any opinions? Who would employ a person without opinions?

What we should really be asking is why. Why did Lee want followers who did not think? What was he hiding? What did he not want us to know?
And, why is it that when Witness Lee had an idea, that was "recovered truth", but when anyone else had an idea it was "fallen human opinion"?
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:01 AM   #26
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So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

Drake
There are your two options, then: one is a "free-for-all" and the other is rigid adherence to HWFMR? This aligns with my observation of lack of thought in the LC. Oversimplify & hope no one notices.

Nee got to talk about whatever the spirit led. Why such latitude with one man, and all the rest have no freedom?
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:03 AM   #27
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There are your two options, then: one is a "free-for-all" and the other is rigid adherence to HWFMR?
I did not describe a rigid adherence.... you wanted me to but I opted to describe the reality instead.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:22 AM   #28
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I did not describe a rigid adherence.... you wanted me to but I opted to describe the reality instead.
Oh. The HWFMR "encourages" our Sunday sharing. What if a brother wanted to share something else? My elder tried that once. He was "encouraged" by a visit from the Anaheimians who said, and I quote, "Re-speak the latest conference".

His error? He wanted to use a WL book. But it wasn't the "latest speaking".

How much freedom of the holy spirit exists in such an environment? Who can think a thought if they can't refer to an outline or bullet point?
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:35 AM   #29
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Oh. The HWFMR "encourages" our Sunday sharing. What if a brother wanted to share something else? My elder tried that once. He was "encouraged" by a visit from the Anaheimians who said, and I quote, "Re-speak the latest conference".

His error? He wanted to use a WL book. But it wasn't the "latest speaking".

How much freedom of the holy spirit exists in such an environment? Who can think a thought if they can't point to an outline or bullet point?
I have found no such control from “Anaheim” as you describe. Last week I was visiting a locality in a city I do not live in and they were not going over HWMR. Even if “Anaheimians” were so inclined, which they are not, it would be impossible to control the churches as you described. It is nice to able to meet in Shanghai and next week cover the same material in NY... it happens sometimes but often they are not covering the same material.

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Old 08-21-2018, 08:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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And, why is it that when Witness Lee had an idea, that was "recovered truth", but when anyone else had an idea it was "fallen human opinion"?
We should remind Drake that all of his posts here are "fallen human opinions."
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:24 AM   #31
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Oh. The HWFMR "encourages" our Sunday sharing. What if a brother wanted to share something else? My elder tried that once. He was "encouraged" by a visit from the Anaheimians who said, and I quote, "Re-speak the latest conference".

His error? He wanted to use a WL book. But it wasn't the "latest speaking".

How much freedom of the holy spirit exists in such an environment? Who can think a thought if they can't refer to an outline or bullet point?
What good is a minister or elder of any church who does not have the liberty of the Spirit to follow the teaching of the anointing (1 John 2.27) in order to shepherd the church placed under his care?
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:27 AM   #32
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I have found no such control from “Anaheim” as you describe. Last week I was visiting a locality in a city I do not live in and they were not going over HWMR. Even if “Anaheimians” were so inclined, which they are not, it would be impossible to control the churches as you described. It is nice to able to meet in Shanghai and next week cover the same material in NY... it happens sometimes but often they are not covering the same material.

Drake
Right! Just like the Catholic Church. Same service all over the world.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:25 AM   #33
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Right! Just like the Catholic Church. Same service all over the world.
Yes, and Drake thinks it is nice. So what's the problem? Uniformity and conformity - how is this not "life and godliness" per 2 Peter 1:3?

Well, how about visiting widows and orphans? The FTTA trainer told us "don't waste your time". Just read this week's HWFMR and you'll have everything you need. Witness Lee did all the work for you.

Those who try to think for themselves are discouraged and if they persist they're ostracized as being "ambitious and divisive and rebellious".
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:31 AM   #34
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Yet there's this:

Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.


-o-

There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....




We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.

.
Nell is right; if "get out of your mind" were not the linchpin of Lee's system this song wouldn't be sung. Songs were created and disseminated as means to inculcate the newbies with LC teachings. This song didn't come from someone's imagination, it came from a Lee message. "Get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear" was tied to "call, call" . . . nothing wrong with calling on the name of the Lord Jesus, nor calling, Abba, Father. But the repetition neatly aligned with Lee's control programme of enforced mindlessness. Don't think, just repetitively chant this week's slogan or 'special words' and voila you're 'in spirit'. The warm fuzzies you feel from the crowd just reinforces it. You are on your way! Eternal bliss awaits! Just call, brother!

And what occurs if anyone were to actually think, and say, "Now wait a minute - why are you teaching this from Psalm 16 when you teach differently in Psalm 18?" Or, "why are you promoting this in Psalm 62 and the diametric opposite in Psalm 39?" Or, "how come women were 'co-workers' in 1922 and 1932 but not in 1972 or 1982?" Or, etc etc. . . "Get out of your mind, brother" is the answer. Or if they persist in attempting to think, they're called "dark" and so forth. Is this an environment that encourages people to think soberly?
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:38 AM   #35
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Those items are not relevant to this topic either aron..... just standard talking points you use in most threads....

However, calling brothers in the Lord "brain-dead" does not seem far removed from those solemnly warned in Matthew 5:22-25. Hope you are prepared for that.

Drake
How about "brain-repressed"? The brain isn't actually dead, it just seems that way. Dormant. I'm trying to stir people up to think.

It's okay to believe. It's also okay to think.

How come Watchman Nee got to think, and Witness Lee, but nobody else? What gives, here?
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:43 AM   #36
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

When I was in the Local Church, Lee taught that we should turn from the mind to the spirit by calling on the Lord and pray reading. Lee discouraged thought and encouraged mindless calling of "Oh Lord Jesus" and repetition of Bible verses and his slogans. His faithful followers almost constantly reinforced this practice in and out of the meetings daily whenever they got together and they testified that they practiced it as much as possible when they were alone. Thus, when critics of Lee observed that his followers abdicated the normal use of their minds, they were correct. Here are just a few examples of the thousands of times Lee directed his followers to reject the normal use of their minds:
If you are bothered with certain church matters, do not stay in your mind to figure out things according to your knowledge and to argue about them. Forget about your mentality and turn to your spirit.
(The Flesh and the Spirit, Chapter 4, Section 3)
In order to see the church or know the church, you cannot remain in your mind. To use your mind is to use the wrong organ to see the church, and you cannot see it. As long as you remain in your mind, you are through with the revelation of the church. Your spirit must be a spirit of revelation. You could never understand the church simply by using your mind. The more you try to figure it out, the more you will be confused. Although you may listen to different people and read different books, you find yourself more and more confused. However, if you would simply close your eyes from all the books, close your mind from all the teachings, close your ears from the voices of the different teachers, and turn yourself to your spirit and remain there, you will be clear concerning the church. (To Serve in the Human Spirit, Chapter 3, Section 2)
Maybe when you begin to pray, you are still in the mind, in the soul. But if you keep on praying, you will pray yourself into the spirit. Even in your prayer you must deny the mind, the emotion, and the will, and learn to sense the spirit. You should not pray according to what you know. You should not pray according to what you like, desire, or love. You should not pray according to what you decide to pray. You must deny the mind, emotion, and will, and take care of the inner sense deep within you. (Our Human Spirit, Chapter 10, Section 1)
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:36 AM   #37
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Witness Lee: "In order to see the church or know the church, you cannot remain in your mind. To use your mind is to use the wrong organ to see the church, and you cannot see it. As long as you remain in your mind, you are through with the revelation of the church. Your spirit must be a spirit of revelation. You could never understand the church simply by using your mind. The more you try to figure it out, the more you will be confused. Although you may listen to different people and read different books, you find yourself more and more confused. However, if you would simply close your eyes from all the books, close your mind from all the teachings, close your ears from the voices of the different teachers, and turn yourself to your spirit and remain there, you will be clear concerning the church. (To Serve in the Human Spirit, Chapter 3, Section 2)
Good quotes which reflect what I heard there. . . Lee had a concept called "seeing" which was diametrically opposed to "being in the mind". Somehow he and his close associates like "X-Ray" Graver could tell which was which. How does this not foster an environment ripe for control and manipulation?
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:02 AM   #38
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Good quotes which reflect what I heard there. . . Lee had a concept called "seeing" which was diametrically opposed to "being in the mind". Somehow he and his close associates like "X-Ray" Graver could tell which was which. How does this not foster an environment ripe for control and manipulation?
Interesting.

The Holy See in Rome, the Seer of the Divine Revelation in China, Lee alone who could see in Anaheim, and Ray "X-Ray" Graver in Texas.

What do all of these have in common?
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:07 PM   #39
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The Holy See in Rome, the Seer of the Divine Revelation in China, Lee alone who could see in Anaheim, and Ray "X-Ray" Graver in Texas.

What do all of these have in common?
To accept Jesus as Lord requires some leap of faith, to believe that God is capable of raising someone from the dead. Paul goes into this at some length in 1 Cor 15. See especially v. 12: "How is it that some of you say there is no resurrection from the dead?" Remember, he's writing to the Christian church!

So that I'm a card-carrying member (or Holy Spirit-filled member, as the case may be) of the "Jesus rose from the dead on the third day and was given glory" sect is no small thing. It's not insignificant that we believe, and confess.

So Satan's stratagem is to make it seem insignificant. "Okay, you believe", is the response; "But you must keep the Sabbath Day holy", or "You must call the right name 'Jehovah'" or "You must meet on the 'proper ground'" or "You must accept the 'revelation' of Prophet Joseph Smith" or whatnot. Somehow there's a new requirement, requiring special proprietary sight. Not available to the average Christian. Suddenly there's an enticing 'special revelation' to lure the attention and heart of the unwary. Suddenly we hear, "You must see the Church" or the like. Somehow Jesus crucified and resurrected to glory is now 'low gospel' and there's a need to 'press on' to 'high peaks of the divine revelation'. Only from the Seer of the Age, folks, and only for eight measly bucks! Step right up! Get your training programme over here!

Nonsense. And all these attempts to get you to shut down your God-given brain are feeble efforts to prop up the nonsense. They're means to human control, to lord over the flock. Jesus called it out - He said, "This is how it is among the gentiles but it should not be this way among you"; I mean, how could this not be clear?
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:36 PM   #40
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When I was in the Local Church, Lee taught that we should turn from the mind to the spirit by calling on the Lord and pray reading. Lee discouraged thought and encouraged mindless calling of "Oh Lord Jesus" and repetition of Bible verses and his slogans. His faithful followers almost constantly reinforced this practice in and out of the meetings daily whenever they got together and they testified that they practiced it as much as possible when they were alone. Thus, when critics of Lee observed that his followers abdicated the normal use of their minds, they were correct.
Lee's English Chinese accent sounded as if it contained hidden secrets ... as if containing privileged meanings ... with a sort of spellbinding effect. He even often spoke as if he was revealing a new secret from God. It all worked together to give an impression that it was God's move on the earth.

And if you are in God's move there's no longer a need to think. Thinking will only get in the way.

Eventually -- after being told at least a thousand times, "Brother, get out of your mind , and turn to your spirit." -- I caught on. All that meant was, stop thinking, and get with the program.

That also resulted in the impression that we were in God's move on the earth ... and ... in that case ... who needs a mind?

I now look back on it, this mind/spirit teaching, and practice, as more or less a universal cultic mechanism. It produces a following spirit. And it works.

This practice, by other names, of rejecting the mind, is common to cults.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:34 PM   #41
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So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

Drake
Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly . . . Are you saying that there needs to be a structure put on the meeting so sharing is done by everyone, but only within a certain prescribed form & context? (And that there is a real danger of "going off the rails" if truly open meetings were practiced?)
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:37 PM   #42
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Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly . . . Are you saying that there needs to be a structure put on the meeting so sharing is done by everyone, but only within a certain prescribed form & context? (And that there is a real danger of "going off the rails" if truly open meetings were practiced?)
Glad you asked.

Mostly StG.... I am responding to a allegation of "control" using HWMR in the Lord's day morning prophesying meeting. The allegation is not accurate. "Anaheimians" are not out cruising the local churches looking for violators as aron suggests. Never seen that or anything close in 40+ years.

History: However, I was there before and after the HWMR.... the burden was to facilitate "each one has" according to 1 Corinthians 14:26 to build the Body of Christ.....as there was still a class system before HWMR where gifted 5 talented members would function, as would many 2 talented members... but the problem was with the majority, the 1 talented members not functioning and many, perhaps most, that came out of the clergy laity system were not used to functioning (it was the pastor who gets paid to preach was the inherent conditioning problem) ... Brother Lee spent a lot of time on this topic. Some gifted brothers were not totally comfortable with the idea but it was felt that if we enabled and encouraged five 1 talented members to rise up then their building of the Body would be just as effective as one functioning gifted brother.

And it proved to be true in my experience and observation.

The HMWR then was designed so that each day there is a reading from the ministry, scripture verses, maybe a hymn reference.. and then a few blank lines to write your inspiration for that day. By the end of the week, you would have accumulated a record of daily inspiration to compose a short and living testimony from how the Lord touched you that week. My experience was that when most of the members were on the same page in this way the cumulative light from every member functioning on that topic was much deeper. Anyone could share from something else but as long as the majority were in the fellowship of the same topic the prophesying meeting was richer, deeper, higher and that was because of the function from the 1 talented members who previously were pretty much silent.

Still, anyone could share from anything... but most realized the benefit by being in the same topic. That applied to the prophesying meeting. However, as I mentioned I was in a another locality last Lord's day and they were not using the HWMR.... they decided that something else was more beneficial for a month or two. They decided what the church needed in their locality.

Home meetings, young people's meetings, and other meetings and what they get into.... well, that just depends on what the ones caring for that meeting think in fellowship of course.

That is what is happening on the ground with HWMR ... not this big bad control mechanism that some here are suggesting.

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Old 08-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #43
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Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?
Maybe because they are looking at the positives and negatives?
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:03 PM   #44
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Nell is right; if "get out of your mind" were not the linchpin of Lee's system this song wouldn't be sung. Songs were created and disseminated as means to inculcate the newbies with LC teachings. This song didn't come from someone's imagination, it came from a Lee message. "Get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear" was tied to "call, call" . . . nothing wrong with calling on the name of the Lord Jesus, nor calling, Abba, Father. But the repetition neatly aligned with Lee's control programme of enforced mindlessness. Don't think, just repetitively chant this week's slogan or 'special words' and voila you're 'in spirit'. The warm fuzzies you feel from the crowd just reinforces it. You are on your way! Eternal bliss awaits! Just call, brother!

And what occurs if anyone were to actually think, and say, "Now wait a minute - why are you teaching this from Psalm 16 when you teach differently in Psalm 18?" Or, "why are you promoting this in Psalm 62 and the diametric opposite in Psalm 39?" Or, "how come women were 'co-workers' in 1922 and 1932 but not in 1972 or 1982?" Or, etc etc. . . "Get out of your mind, brother" is the answer. Or if they persist in attempting to think, they're called "dark" and so forth. Is this an environment that encourages people to think soberly?
Well you could use your mind to read the Bible like that, but it sounds a look like asking Why does this fruit in the Garden look tastier than the rest? How come God said we can eat of any tree in the Garden but not this one, is it not just a tree like the rest?
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:28 PM   #45
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Well you could use your mind to read the Bible like that, but it sounds a look like asking Why does this fruit in the Garden look tastier than the rest? How come God said we can eat of any tree in the Garden but not this one, is it not just a tree like the rest?
Sounds like another misguided Lee teaching...”don’t ask questions. A question mark is in the shape of a snake.”

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


I.e., ask questions.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:51 PM   #46
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Glad you asked.
History: However, I was there before and after the HWMR.... the burden was to facilitate "each one has" according to 1 Corinthians 14:26 to build the Body of Christ.....as there was still a class system before HWMR where gifted 5 talented members would function, as would many 2 talented members... but the problem was with the majority, the 1 talented members not functioning and many, perhaps most, that came out of the clergy laity system were not used to functioning (it was the pastor who gets paid to preach was the inherent conditioning problem) ... Brother Lee spent a lot of time on this topic. Some gifted brothers were not totally comfortable with the idea but it was felt that if we enabled and encouraged five 1 talented members to rise up then their building of the Body would be just as effective as one functioning gifted brother.
If this is the real purpose of HWMR, then I am afraid it has failed miserably. Not to mention in the very first place the LSM has assumed itself into the position of the 5 talented and treat others as the 1 talented who cannot function without the help from HWMR. Ends up the LSM became the 1 talented who played safe and stick with whatever "light" they received decades ago from WL.

Instead of encouraging first hand experience with Christ, the HWMR provides second hand experience at its best. Precious time of the members were wasted to understand what the wordy outlines actually mean in stead of really look into the Bible. (The outlines have become more and more complicated over time like a legal document.) Home meetings became tutorial sessions to go through all the points in the outlines instead of each member sharing their experience with Christ in the week. More and more other meetings such as video training were added to force-feed the contents to the members.

Instead of enabling members to function as a living member, it turns them into a tape recorder. I have heard multiple times from different people including responsible ones saying if you don't have anything to share, simply reading out the HWMR messages is fine.

The LSM used the "each one has" (1 Cor 14:26) idea to structure the meeting such that as many members can speak as possible so each is allocated a very limited time of around 2 minutes. Ends up each member can only repeat a small portion in the messages and it is difficult to share personal experiences. This is another example of selective Bible reading. 1 Cor 14:29 was ignored.

1 Cor 14:29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.

The net result is the LSM has limited the opportunity for members to grow and to raise ideas different from the "flow". I'll leave it to others to discern whether it is mind control.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:09 AM   #47
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Glad you asked.

Mostly StG.... I am responding to a allegation of "control" using HWMR in the Lord's day morning prophesying meeting. The allegation is not accurate. "Anaheimians" are not out cruising the local churches looking for violators as aron suggests. Never seen that or anything close in 40+ years.

History: However, I was there before and after the HWMR.... the burden was to facilitate "each one has" according to 1 Corinthians 14:26 to build the Body of Christ.....as there was still a class system before HWMR where gifted 5 talented members would function, as would many 2 talented members... but the problem was with the majority, the 1 talented members not functioning and many, perhaps most, that came out of the clergy laity system were not used to functioning (it was the pastor who gets paid to preach was the inherent conditioning problem) ... Brother Lee spent a lot of time on this topic. Some gifted brothers were not totally comfortable with the idea but it was felt that if we enabled and encouraged five 1 talented members to rise up then their building of the Body would be just as effective as one functioning gifted brother.

And it proved to be true in my experience and observation.

The HMWR then was designed so that each day there is a reading from the ministry, scripture verses, maybe a hymn reference.. and then a few blank lines to write your inspiration for that day. By the end of the week, you would have accumulated a record of daily inspiration to compose a short and living testimony from how the Lord touched you that week. My experience was that when most of the members were on the same page in this way the cumulative light from every member functioning on that topic was much deeper. Anyone could share from something else but as long as the majority were in the fellowship of the same topic the prophesying meeting was richer, deeper, higher and that was because of the function from the 1 talented members who previously were pretty much silent.

Still, anyone could share from anything... but most realized the benefit by being in the same topic. That applied to the prophesying meeting. However, as I mentioned I was in a another locality last Lord's day and they were not using the HWMR.... they decided that something else was more beneficial for a month or two. They decided what the church needed in their locality.

Home meetings, young people's meetings, and other meetings and what they get into.... well, that just depends on what the ones caring for that meeting think in fellowship of course.

That is what is happening on the ground with HWMR ... not this big bad control mechanism that some here are suggesting.

Drake
Thanks for that explanation. The motive, as described, is certainly admirable.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:41 AM   #48
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Mostly StG.... I am responding to a allegation of "control" using HWMR in the Lord's day morning prophesying meeting. The allegation is not accurate. "Anaheimians" are not out cruising the local churches looking for violators as aron suggests. Never seen that or anything close in 40+ years.

Drake
I beg to differ. Anaheim had independent "sleeper cells" around the country looking for non-compliants regarding the HWFMR. Lee and the Blendeds actively solicited spies. Even Lee told us, "I know everything!"

We had a guest from Florida one time stand up in the meeting and say, "don't you use the HWFMR?" Immediately I was forced to respond, "sure, we use that too!" Which was sometimes true. Otherwise word gets back to headquarters that Ohio's LC is "out of the flow" or some such nonsense.

Dear Drake of course you knew about reports like this getting back to Anaheim.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:56 AM   #49
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Man I am so out of the flow that I don't even know what HWFMR even stands for! I mean I think I have a basic understanding, but I don't know the spelling out of this acronym.

Is there a glossary of terms on this forum somewhere? Maybe someone should create a "sticky" with a glossary of terms and acronyms (like I've seen in other forums).

Seriously!

(and then maybe we can test newcomers with the acronyms & terms - "If you are to join this forum you must get a score of 85% or above . . .")
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:06 AM   #50
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Man I am so out of the flow that I don't even know what HWFMR even stands for! I mean I think I have a basic understanding, but I don't know the spelling out of this acronym.

Is there a glossary of terms on this forum somewhere? Maybe someone should create a "sticky" with a glossary of terms and acronyms (like I've seen in other forums).

Seriously!

(and then maybe we can test newcomers with the acronyms & terms - "If you are to join this forum you must get a score of 85% or above . . .")
Holy Word for Morning Revival...

Every denomination I was in had something similar.... Baptist and Assemblies of God.... daily readings in and about the Word of God.... Usually covered in Sunday School.

that sort of thing.

Drake
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:37 AM   #51
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Maybe because they are looking at the positives and negatives?
How come Lee could point out the negatives of Lutheranism - "daughters of the harlot &c" but none could point out the many negatives in the LC? Suddenly it was, "God sees no iniquity in Israel". The about-face was so rapid as to induce whiplash if you tried to keep pace.

Why could LSM "Affirm & Critique" fallen Christanity but no one could affirm & critique Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? How did perfection nestle so snugly on these two characters?

How? By the recipients & practitioners being "in spirit and out of mind" according to their home-brewed and self-focused metrics.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:44 AM   #52
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Holy Word for Morning Revival...

Every denomination I was in had something similar.... Baptist and Assemblies of God.... daily readings in and about the Word of God.... Usually covered in Sunday School.

that sort of thing.

Drake
So now the denominations have some good ideas that you can steal after all your other ideas have failed?
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:45 AM   #53
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Why could LSM "Affirm & Critique" fallen Christanity but no one could affirm & critique Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?
Right. Why couldn't the functioning of all the members of the body include questioning Nee & Lee?
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:46 AM   #54
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Holy Word for Morning Revival...

Every denomination I was in had something similar.... Baptist and Assemblies of God.... daily readings in and about the Word of God.... Usually covered in Sunday School.

that sort of thing.
Drake says it's not mandatory. Most readers would say, "That's not my experience". The LC practices a rather draconian approach to conformity in the name of 'oneness'.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:48 AM   #55
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So now the denominations have some good ideas that you can steal after all your other ideas have failed?
It's not stolen it's 'recovered'; apparently in the 1st-century church they pray-read Paul's epistles. It was the first HWFMR. "You just need 'the sight' brother!"

Actually it's good to shout every now & then, including scripture. It's therapy for the soul. But to rigidly practice mind-numbing repetition is the opposite- it's soul-deadening. One's native faculties of discernment are repressed and errors spread and grow. How do you think "Lord Changshou" became the rage in China? It was 'Shouted' into existence.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:55 AM   #56
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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It's not stolen it's 'recovered'; apparently in the 1st-century church they pray-read Paul's epistles. "You just need 'the sight' brother!"
Reminds me of what Rush said about Tom Sawyer ...
Though his mind is not for rent
Don't put him down as arrogant
He reserves the quiet defense
Riding out the day's events

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the mist, catch the myth
Catch the mystery, catch the drift


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Old 08-22-2018, 09:41 AM   #57
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Reminds me of what Rush said about Tom Sawyer ...
Though his mind is not for rent
Don't put him down as arrogant
He reserves the quiet defense
Riding out the day's events

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the mist, catch the myth
Catch the mystery, catch the drift


That is in the top 10 for most overplayed classic rock songs on our local station! (they play this at the YMCA I workout at)

Thanks Ohio - now there's another song in my head . . .

So who's gonna start that LCD online glossary of terms?
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:53 AM   #58
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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That is in the top 10 for most overplayed classic rock songs on our local station! (they play this at the YMCA I workout at)

Thanks Ohio - now there's another song in my head . . .

So who's gonna start that LCD online glossary of terms?
Overplayed? How about this?
Hold your fire
Keep it burning bright
Hold the flame
'Til the dream ignites
A spirit with a vision
Is a dream with a mission


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Old 08-22-2018, 11:12 AM   #59
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Holy Word for Morning Revival...

Every denomination I was in had something similar.... Baptist and Assemblies of God.... daily readings in and about the Word of God.... Usually covered in Sunday School.

that sort of thing.

Drake
I remember starting my day with the date that matched the date in "A Table in the Wilderness."

I resented the Life-Study's. They quenched the Spirit. Haven't read any HWFMR ... If someone has an example of one on the web, that would be cool. I'd like to see if they really are a morning revival, or if that's just a catchy euphemistic title. They say, "Don't judge a book by it's cover."

Anyway. I'd only like to judge how HWFMR affects the Spirit, and to see and feel its effects on the meeting. That's the true test of HWFMR.

I also wonder how much Lee they have in them. Are they Lee booklets?
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:48 PM   #60
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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I remember starting my day with the date that matched the date in "A Table in the Wilderness."

I resented the Life-Study's. They quenched the Spirit. Haven't read any HWFMR ... If someone has an example of one on the web, that would be cool. I'd like to see if they really are a morning revival, or if that's just a catchy euphemistic title. They say, "Don't judge a book by it's cover."

Anyway. I'd only like to judge how HWFMR affects the Spirit, and to see and feel its effects on the meeting. That's the true test of HWFMR.

I also wonder how much Lee they have in them. Are they Lee booklets?
There's nothing inspirational or "reviving" for the morning. HWFMR is kind of like eating turkey jerky with preservatives. It is just repackaging of Lee's writings, more like a study guide outline for the Sunday morning meeting. The reason they are mandated for Sunday service is so that everyone has to buy one.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:07 PM   #61
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There's nothing inspirational or "reviving" for the morning. HWFMR is kind of like eating turkey jerky with preservatives. It is just repackaging of Lee's writings, more like a study guide outline for the Sunday morning meeting. The reason they are mandated for Sunday service is so that everyone has to buy one.
I remember enjoying starting my day with A Table in the Wilderness. But that was in the privacy of my bathroom. So maybe there were other reasons I felt uplifted.

Those were the days when I considered Nee a Spiritual Giant ... and thanks to lying Lee, a martyr for Christ. I was such a sucker.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:21 PM   #62
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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I remember enjoying starting my day with A Table in the Wilderness. But that was in the privacy of my bathroom. So maybe there were other reasons I felt uplifted.

Those were the days when I considered Nee a Spiritual Giant ... and thanks to lying Lee, a martyr for Christ. I was such a sucker.
Heck yeah ... now that your septic system is working again ... everything you read on the can is uplifting!

Hey ... I agree ... some of Nee's and Lee's stuff was good at one point. But after they started cramming it all down our throats ... none of it tastes good anymore.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:22 AM   #63
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... I agree ... some of Nee's and Lee's stuff was good at one point. But after they started cramming it all down our throats ... none of it tastes good anymore.
I also agree. Some good, at one point. Even today, some good. But most of it's as palatable as dried dog food. And then we'd get a visit from blended Ed, who'd stand up front and say, "Yum, yum! I could eat leftovers forever!"

So how did it come to this? With 2,000 years of history, the faith has a lot of customs, teachings and practices. From Santa Claus to the Easter Bunny. (Actually SC & EB are not of the faith but were appended by human society, but that's to my point).

So when we were presented with the supposedly new and pure "recovered church", some of us bit the hook. We tearfully declared that were "wrecked" for the LC, and didn't we know it! Eventually, we found out that to "function" in the LC meant we were to repeat, verbatim if possible, repackaged LSM material like the HWFMR.

And if you notice that Week 6 Day 3 doesn't jibe with Week 2 Day 4, or that 2 footnotes apparently contradict each other, or that Early Lee seemed quite at odds with Later Lee, no matter. Be positive! (i.e. don't think!)
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:13 AM   #64
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Heck yeah ... now that your septic system is working again ... everything you read on the can is uplifting!
That's true. And why I have a library in both bathrooms. I'm presently reading a big fat book called "The Lost books of the Bible." Wow! Fascinating! Eusebius had over 100 books to select from. And didn't use "inspiration" to select them as a canon. So now I get to decide. Somewho (sic), that's uplifting.

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Hey ... I agree ... some of Nee's and Lee's stuff was good at one point. But after they started cramming it all down our throats ... none of it tastes good anymore.
And paying for it to boot. That strikes me as spiritual extortion. And Oh! It's a donation ..wink.. ..wink.. just don't claim it.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:13 AM   #65
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Heck yeah ... now that your septic system is working again ... everything you read on the can is uplifting!

Hey ... I agree ... some of Nee's and Lee's stuff was good at one point. But after they started cramming it all down our throats ... none of it tastes good anymore.
For the record - a number of us in Scottsdale have recently found Nee's "The Normal Christian Life" to still be fresh and helpful. I went through the book myself slowly a few years ago, and there have been a couple spontaneous small groups I know of who have enjoyed and benefited from it.

It's simple: Eat the corn and throw out the husks . . . (and being a little older with a little more God-given wisdom, we hopefully can tell the difference)
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:59 AM   #66
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It's simple: Eat the corn and throw out the husks . . . (and being a little older with a little more God-given wisdom, we hopefully can tell the difference)
Yep. Works for me.

From time to time i read or hear something way beyond my experience, then I just set it aside for awhile. Later the Lord may bring me back to it and He enlightens, gives grace, I yield to Him, and then I understand. Other times I revisit and determine that it still not for me.... no problem.... I just stay in the flow of His life and eventually by His leading it will resolve. If I step out of the flow of life, and I have from time it time, then the matter does not get resolved, or at least not in a good way.

Eat the corn, spit out the husk... good practice.

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Old 08-23-2018, 12:00 PM   #67
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Eat the corn, spit out the husk...
Too bad Local Churchers are not allowed to spit out the husks. In fact, they are taught that there are no husks to spit out. Everything needed for the Christian life, both individual and corporately, has already proceeded from the mouth of Witness Lee. Lee claimed that he had taken in all the corn there is to be taken in and has spit out the husks for us. How cool is that!

Furthermore, anyone who tries to spit out the husks will be severely censored (if they're lucky) and will eventually be forced out...or maybe quarantined (ex communicated). Most mature and sensible Christians understand that this kind of domination of one man's ministry over an entire movement is extremely unhealthy, and almost always leads to abuse. The Local Church of Witness Lee is the poster boy for this kind of unhealthy domination and abuse.

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Old 08-23-2018, 03:41 PM   #68
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Too bad Local Churchers are not allowed to spit out the husks. In fact, they are taught that there are no husks to spit out.
-
No UntoHim.... Brother lee did not teach that...

"When I am invited to any dinner, I only know how to eat; I don’t know how to investigate. Sometimes, however, I noticed that when a poor eater was invited to dinner, he didn’t eat. Rather he tried his best to find bones in the chicken. He was not a chicken eater; he was a chicken-bone finder. It seems his job was to find the bones. We have put out many issues of The Stream magazine and many life-study messages for people to eat. What a shame that this poor man was only looking for bones. We put out these messages only for the eaters; we never put them out for people to find bones. There may be some bones in every message. " Perfecting Training, Chapter 8 ; Witness Lee

If someone wants to find bones or husks they are there, but there is chicken there too. Chicken bones don't bother me, I eat around them. Husks don't bother me, I toss them away... too much really good food on which to feast to bother picking through things not intended for consumption.

Good practice, eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Eat the corn, toss the husks. That is the best way to enjoy the Lord's provision.

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Old 08-23-2018, 05:45 PM   #69
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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No UntoHim.... Brother lee did not teach that...

"When I am invited to any dinner, I only know how to eat; I don’t know how to investigate. Sometimes, however, I noticed that when a poor eater was invited to dinner, he didn’t eat. Rather he tried his best to find bones in the chicken. He was not a chicken eater; he was a chicken-bone finder. It seems his job was to find the bones. We have put out many issues of The Stream magazine and many life-study messages for people to eat. What a shame that this poor man was only looking for bones. We put out these messages only for the eaters; we never put them out for people to find bones. There may be some bones in every message. " Perfecting Training, Chapter 8 ; Witness Lee

If someone wants to find bones or husks they are there, but there is chicken there too. Chicken bones don't bother me, I eat around them. Husks don't bother me, I toss them away... too much really good food on which to feast to bother picking through things not intended for consumption.

Good practice, eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Eat the corn, toss the husks. That is the best way to enjoy the Lord's provision.

Drake
We can say the same of every Minister of the Lord. Are they not also the "Lord's provision?" And, like Lee, they all have "husks and bones." Yet Lee condemned them all. And you continually give a pass to Lee when no other minister on earth could get one. Only a manifest arrogant pride would condemn all others for what Lee himself also has.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:04 PM   #70
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No UntoHim.... Brother lee did not teach that...

"When I am invited to any dinner, I only know how to eat; I don’t know how to investigate. Sometimes, however, I noticed that when a poor eater was invited to dinner, he didn’t eat. Rather he tried his best to find bones in the chicken. He was not a chicken eater; he was a chicken-bone finder. It seems his job was to find the bones. We have put out many issues of The Stream magazine and many life-study messages for people to eat. What a shame that this poor man was only looking for bones. We put out these messages only for the eaters; we never put them out for people to find bones. There may be some bones in every message. " Perfecting Training, Chapter 8 ; Witness Lee

If someone wants to find bones or husks they are there, but there is chicken there too. Chicken bones don't bother me, I eat around them. Husks don't bother me, I toss them away... too much really good food on which to feast to bother picking through things not intended for consumption.

Good practice, eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Eat the corn, toss the husks. That is the best way to enjoy the Lord's provision.

Drake
+1 LSM point. That is the correct Witness Lee passage to reference in this situation!

We all know that he wrote about chicken and the bones Drake...what is practiced both then and now - is much different. Everyone knows that.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:50 PM   #71
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Everyone knows that.
Fallacy in argument... you could not possibly know what “everyone knows”.

But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?

Drake
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:18 AM   #72
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Fallacy in argument... you could not possibly know what “everyone knows”.

But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?

Drake
Drake, you’re so caught up in being perceived as right, you can’t see the reality that surrounds you. Your behavior on this forum is what you get after 40 years under Lee? How about me? I’ll pass.
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:37 AM   #73
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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No UntoHim.... Brother lee did not teach that...

"When I am invited to any dinner, I only know how to eat; I don’t know how to investigate. Sometimes, however, I noticed that when a poor eater was invited to dinner, he didn’t eat. Rather he tried his best to find bones in the chicken. He was not a chicken eater; he was a chicken-bone finder. It seems his job was to find the bones. We have put out many issues of The Stream magazine and many life-study messages for people to eat. What a shame that this poor man was only looking for bones. We put out these messages only for the eaters; we never put them out for people to find bones. There may be some bones in every message. " Perfecting Training, Chapter 8 ; Witness Lee

If someone wants to find bones or husks they are there, but there is chicken there too. Chicken bones don't bother me, I eat around them. Husks don't bother me, I toss them away... too much really good food on which to feast to bother picking through things not intended for consumption.

Good practice, eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Eat the corn, toss the husks. That is the best way to enjoy the Lord's provision.

Drake

Never happened in actual giving messages even that quote exists.
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:05 AM   #74
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Drake, you’re so caught up in being perceived as right, you can’t see the reality that surrounds you. Your behavior on this forum is what you get after 40 years under Lee? How about me? I’ll pass.
What else can you do LofT? You’re just riding coattails... and enjoying the ride it seems.

And what should I do with your many misunderstandings? Let them go unchallenged? Take the above for example... I am and have never been “under Lee”. I understand that it is easier for you to enjoin here by so mischaracterizing Drake because that way he fits the character of the popular narrative and then you have no splainin to do. It’s convenient. In other words, you prefer to debate an entirely different Drake vs. the real Drake right in front of you. I know my reality LofT, I just refuse to go along with yours..... so of course you will pass.

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Old 08-24-2018, 06:25 AM   #75
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Drake,

The amount of content that you've written on this forum doesn't allow you to hide under the concept of an "entirely different Drake" - you get that right? You can think I'm riding someones coat tails or whatever... As you know, I've invited you to my home, come see my life, family, ministry, church. Just tell me when man - you can hold me accountable for whatever you'd like. Life is short Drake.
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:55 AM   #76
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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What else can you do LofT? You’re just riding coattails... and enjoying the ride it seems.

And what should I do with your many misunderstandings? Let them go unchallenged? Take the above for example... I am and have never been “under Lee”. I understand that it is easier for you to enjoin here by so mischaracterizing Drake because that way he fits the character of the popular narrative and then you have no splainin to do. It’s convenient. In other words, you prefer to debate an entirely different Drake vs. the real Drake right in front of you. I know my reality LofT, I just refuse to go along with yours..... so of course you will pass.

Drake

Dear Drake, like it or not, your reality has been defined by Witness Lee and the Blendeds. That's why you must run from the challenges that many posters present you with. Instead of confronting the truth, the real reality, you continually hide and revert back to what Lee said was real. You believe all of LSM's PR, yet you have never peeked behind the curtain to see what's really there. You dare not know the truth by comparing Lee's teachings with his actions.
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:07 AM   #77
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But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?
Drake, if this has been your practice for 40+ years, would you mind sharing what are the bones you spit out from WL's messages?
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:11 AM   #78
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Fallacy in argument... you could not possibly know what “everyone knows”.

But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?

Drake
I buy boneless chicken ... available at eateries and markets most everywhere. Some, vegans for example, don't eat any of the chicken. That's how I feel about Nee's and Lee's teachings.

From Indianas' Nee Timeline (click) we get this nugget :
"1948 Nee said: Living the church life demands our very life. The first thing we have to do is not to think, but to submit." (highlight mine)
That became not only a teaching, but a practice ; a practice of stifling yourself and dumbing down.

I ate that chicken, and sucked the marrow out of the bones. I have to report to all that's thinking of eating it : It gave me Salmonella of the brain.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:44 AM   #79
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Drake,

The amount of content that you've written on this forum doesn't allow you to hide under the concept of an "entirely different Drake" - you get that right? You can think I'm riding someones coat tails or whatever... As you know, I've invited you to my home, come see my life, family, ministry, church. Just tell me when man - you can hold me accountable for whatever you'd like. Life is short Drake.

LofT,

First thanks for your private note and your open invitation to visit you and your family in your home. I know you extend such an invitation in all sincerity.

I also recognize that you are disappointed by my rebuffs in this forum but I hope I have not offended you because I mean no such thing. Rather, though your intentions are well meaning I feel it necessary to offer my point of view at the dynamic, or back and forth, between us because I am convinced that a disconnect in our understanding lies there.

I am certain that your ministry, your family life, your home, are a testimony to the Lord and that a visit by me in your home would confirm it. I am also certain that upon leaving I would thank the Lord for His calling you and your faithfulness in responding and fulfilling His calling to you.

Yet, in so doing I could not abandon His calling to me.

Over 4 decades ago, after having grown up in a fundamental Bible believing denomination, off and on being distracted by the sixties, with relatives in the clergy, and after having served myself in highly visible leadership positions in a charismatic denomination, I knew that the Lord desired something more with me. So I began visiting other Christian meetings in both denominations and free groups, and devouring the writings of many authors to gain additional Christian perspectives about the Christian life. Then I came across a fantastic book entitled “Call To Discipleship “ by Juan Carlos Ortiz. From that I realized that the thing lacking in my life was not works, or ministry, or leadership but rather my not following the Lords will in service to Him though being in service to Him.. I was doing something for Him but was I really with Him and He with me in that service? Then, on the cover of that book there was this statement.... “ Many consider Juan Carlos Ortiz, a modern day Watchman Nee”. Then I asked “Who is Watchman Nee?” . A member of a Bible study group I was part of at work said, they had a book by Watchman Nee, had never read it, and brought it to me. I read the first two chapters of that book and the Lord came to me like a bolt of lightning. I was stunned and drawn to Lord in light and vision like I never had experienced even in the most lively and animated moments in Pentecostalism. This was real, genuine, and a life changing moment. The title of that book was “The Glorious Church”. I knew nothing of the Lords recovery, or Witness Lee, or the local churches for quite awhile after that... however, I knew that there was something to this and there was an understanding between me and the Lord and a new and fresh consecration to Him. One thing led to another as I have testified elsewhere and over forty years later He is as fresh and real as that night I read those first two chapters. Yet, you may think.. what about all the problems, the mistakes, the conflicts, etc.? Well, setting aside the outright mischaracterizations and fabrications, I acknowledge problems exist and yet when I present them to the Lord His word to me is “you follow Me” and that is unmistakenly as clear as a bell. So, I have to be faithful to His calling as you are to His.

I share this with you LofT because I know you are sincere in your efforts to help me out of what you believe to be a wrong place. Yet, what you believe to be true about me and the local churches, and the Lord’s recovery and this ministry is often factually incorrect. I attribute this mostly due to the limited time you have been familiar with me and the Lord’s recovery and what you hear in this forum from others. That is not to say you don’t have primary experience but for whatever reason your perceptions are not based in reality.... at least my reality. So, I point those out and that may frustrate you but that is not my intent at all.... and my commitment to you is to present you and others with the facts and then you can express your point of view with those in hand. Or you may disregard them, that is entirely up to you.

Anyway, thanks for your offer and I hope this helps to clarify my viewpoint in our interactions.

Drake
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:38 AM   #80
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"There may be some bones in every message." Perfecting Training, Chapter 8 ; Witness Lee
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Good practice, eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Eat the corn, toss the husks. That is the best way to enjoy the Lord's provision.
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We all know that he wrote about chicken and the bones Drake...what is practiced both then and now - is much different. Everyone knows that.
But leastofthese, you're forgetting that Drake has supposedly been in the Local Church of Witness Lee for 40 years. He has traveled extensively and been to dozens upon dozens of Local Churches all over the world....but he has never, ever witnessed any such teaching or practice from Witness Lee, or anyone else in the LC for that matter. We all must be liars, delusional, or simply been in some other Local Church of Witness Lee. There must be two Local Churches - one that Drake was/is in, and another one that the rest of us were/are in.

You can't make this stuff up folks
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:33 AM   #81
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We all must be liars, delusional, or simply been in some other Local Church of Witness Lee. There must be two Local Churches - one that Drake was/is in, and another one that the rest of us were/are in.

You can't make this stuff up folks
- [/COLOR]
Right, But what I don’t get is why I would lie about any of this? I have no hurt or ill will towards the people I met in the LC - quite the opposite. I was treated better than almost anyone that walked through the doors.

So then maybe I’m delusional? I think if that were the case I wouldn’t have a list of folks from all walks of life who would call responsible, smart, trustworthy, etc. I’m a very fortunate guy, for a lot of reasons, both personally and professionally - by the grace of God He calls me His son.

So maybe there are two LC’s? That doesn’t align with my experiences there either... I mean I’ve been to Anaheim, stayed in homes, been to “trainings”, and visited with people from many LC’s in the US.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:49 AM   #82
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Right, But what I don’t get is why I would lie about any of this? I have no hurt or ill will towards the people I met in the LC - quite the opposite. I was treated better than almost anyone that walked through the doors.

So then maybe I’m delusional? I think if that were the case I wouldn’t have a list of folks from all walks of life who would call responsible, smart, trustworthy, etc. I’m a very fortunate guy, for a lot of reasons, both personally and professionally - by the grace of God He calls me His son.

So maybe there are two LC’s? That doesn’t align with my experiences there either... I mean I’ve been to Anaheim, stayed in homes, been to “trainings”, and visited with people from many LC’s in the US.
Maybe we just see primarily what we want to see and filter the rest.

Sidebar: When I visit various groups as we travel, the Lord is teaching me to drop my preconceived notions about how others meet and regarding other general things (i.e., not related to the core beliefs of the faith). For to me to hang on to these just puts a dampener on fellowship (which I've experienced far too much)! I hope to also do this the next time I visit an LC group, that is, not block fellowship because of some silly, preconception I hold about how LCers are. He is able!
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:41 PM   #83
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Maybe we just see primarily what we want to see and filter the rest
If that were true, I’d still be in the LC. Maybe the same is true for others on this forum. There are many things that make the LSM churches attractive at first glance - but eventually reality sets in...
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:49 PM   #84
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But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?
Drake, if this has been your practice for 40+ years, would you mind sharing what are the bones you spit out from WL's messages?
Drake, perhaps you have missed my question in your last visit to this thread so I bring this up again. I would really like to know what are the "bones" from the perspective of an LSM supporter.
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:38 AM   #85
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Drake, perhaps you have missed my question in your last visit to this thread so I bring this up again. I would really like to know what are the "bones" from the perspective of an LSM supporter.
ALB,

Bones could be many things....

Some rules in a training or the logistics of a training...say badges as one example... things necessary to present a good chicken dinner but you don’t eat those parts.

speaking could have many bones.... chicken would be explicitly or implicitly “stay healthy so you can live a long useful life to serve the Lord” but a bone might be “my wife only lets me have 3 dumplings when I wanted 6”.

Chicken might be “consecrate your finances to the Lord so that all His provision to you is not wasted and a vanity”. A bone might be “Why buy a BMW when a Ford Fiesta will suffice?”.

A brother once shared in a meeting for at least 8 minutes sharing his dissatisfaction with his car renting experience at LAX coming to a training. Then for one minute he shared how the Lord touched his bad attitude. So, 1 minute of chicken and 8 minutes of bone... or maybe it was a chicken back with feathers.

Having rummaged through the trash can looking for a few discarded bones, I’d prefer to return to my delicious chicken and dumplings dinner. Hope that helps.

Drake
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:36 AM   #86
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But here’s a fact LofT.... I eat the chicken and spit out the bones. Been my practice for 40+ years... how about you?
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Drake, if this has been your practice for 40+ years, would you mind sharing what are the bones you spit out from WL's messages?
So Drake, if you're going to respond, then respond to A little brother's resonable and pertinent question. Please stop waisting our time by talking about badges, dumplings, BMWs and Fords, and long testimonies about car rentals. We know you are desperate to avoid the real question - Was Witness Lee infallible? No? Then show us that you don't consider him infallible by mentioning a few of "bones" in his teachings. If you don't want to answer this challenge then don't. But stop pretending like you're giving a response to the question when you are clearly not.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:04 AM   #87
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So Drake, if you're going to respond, then respond to A little brother's resonable and pertinent question. Please stop waisting our time by talking about badges, dumplings, BMWs and Fords, and long testimonies about car rentals. We know you are desperate to avoid the real question - Was Witness Lee infallible? No? Then show us that you don't consider him infallible by mentioning a few of "bones" in his teachings. If you don't want to answer this challenge then don't. But stop pretending like you're giving a response to the question when you are clearly not.
-
Such saber-rattling!

Witness Lee was NOT infallible ... stop pretending that I think he was. You are misrepresenting me and attempting to goad me into adopting your personal obsession. If that is the real question then you have my real answer... yet again.

Stop playing the entrapment game. No wonder this forum has dwindled to a handful.... you asked why so few current local church members participate. Your answer lies there.... few are willing to put up with the uncivil behavior, and nonsense, and twisting. Do you talk to people with whom you differ like that in person face to face? Or is an online forum just a convenient way to distance yourself from civility because you don’t have to look them in the eye.

Now, back to the bones....

I gave two examples closely related to the ministry and Brother Lee, I gave one example from a blended brother... and I gave one first hand experience ... if those aren’t sufficient bones for you then you and your fellows are free to continue your daily digging through the garbage and pick out and admire your own bones. That is largely what this forum is about.. ... dem bones, dem bones... looky here, here’s another... hey y’all I found one over here, come look! Whoa, that’s a whopper of a bone!

Drake
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:42 AM   #88
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Such saber-rattling!

Witness Lee was NOT infallible ... stop pretending that I think he was. You are misrepresenting me and attempting to goad me into adopting your personal obsession.

Stop playing the entrapment game. No wonder this forum has dwindled to a handful.... you asked why so few current local church members participate. Your answer lies there.... few are willing to put up with the uncivil behavior, and nonsense, and twisting. Do you talk to people with whom you differ like that in person face to face? Or is an online forum just a convenient way to distance yourself from civility because you don’t have to look them in the eye.

Now, back to the bones....

I gave two examples closely related to the ministry and Brother Lee, I gave one example from a blended brother... and I gave one first hand experience ... if those aren’t sufficient bones for you then you and your fellows are free to continue your daily digging through the garbage and pick out and admire your own bones. That is largely what this forum is about.. ... dem bones, dem bones... looky here, here’s another... hey y’all I found over here, come look!

Drake
Saber-rattling? Drake, do you feel that threatened when asked a simple question?

"Witness Lee was NOT infallible," did you say that? What have we been trying to tell you?

I find this whole "messy kitchen" analogy with "don't eat the bones" exhortations by Lee and the Blendeds totally disingenuous. Witness Lee demanded extensive far-reaching mercy for him and his ministry, yet he provided no such mercy at all to any others out there in the greater body of Christ. What did Jesus say, "With what judgment you judge ..."? (Mt 7.2)

Lee and cadre jumped up and down at every ministry scandal in Christianity. I could never forget the mocking condemnations of the Bakkers during the "New Way" of the 1980's. I learned about this on my way to Taipei for the FTTT. Sitting next to co-worker CJ on the long flight across the Pacific, I heard about how pure and upright the ministry of WL was, deserving of our whole life and heart and service. I was completely "on board" in those days.

Let me tell you what was really going on behind closed doors at LSM at the same time. Philip Lee was molesting the office staff and abusing every other leader in the LCM, bringing them under forced subjection and humiliation. (Read the accounts of Ingalls, So, Mallon, Unger, Wang, etc., all of the so-called conspirators.) This level of corruption at LSM does not even rise to the level of "organic chicken bones." This was salmonella poisoning of the worst kind. As soon as long-time devoted LC members learned of this corruption, they immediately got sick and "poisoned." Learning the truth about LSM will do that to you.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:47 AM   #89
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Now, back to the bones....

I gave two examples closely related to the ministry and Brother Lee, I gave one example from a blended brother... and I gave one first hand experience ... if those aren’t sufficient bones for you then you and your fellows are free to continue your daily digging through the garbage and pick out and admire your own bones. That is largely what this forum is about.. ... dem bones, dem bones... looky here, here’s another... hey y’all I found one over here, come look! Whoa, that’s a whopper of a bone!

Drake
Actually I was a bit let down by your reply. I was asking simply about bones in WL's messages and you did not give any direct and relevant examples. I can understand if your say it is difficult to find bones from WL's message treasure even with your 40+ years of experience. It surprised me that all of a sudden you related this matter to digging through the garbage for bones.
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:04 AM   #90
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Methinks all the invectives flying around out here are the bones we need to spit out ... but :

Hey bro Drake. Great to hear from you.

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Witness Lee was NOT infallible ...
Now we're getting somewhere. We've settled that. Now the question is : how fallible was he? was he just a little bit fallible, or full-fledged?

Is his Recovery a fat chicken? or at bottom just skin and bones? Eater decide. It's amazing what the human body can live on. John the Baptist lived on locust and honey. He prolly didn't care about bones at all. Yum! More protein.

Anyway. My point being, to each his or her own. We've all got to find our way. Sometimes we need help. Just don't get hustled.
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:30 AM   #91
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Actually I was a bit let down by your reply. I was asking simply about bones in WL's messages and you did not give any direct and relevant examples. I can understand if your say it is difficult to find bones from WL's message treasure even with your 40+ years of experience. It surprised me that all of a sudden you related this matter to digging through the garbage for bones.
ALB,

I did give you a reference from Brother Lees speaking..... and there were others in that genre throughout his decades of speaking.........However, I have found very little in his actual teachings to disagree with.... they are orthodox and insightful.

.. but you need not be surprised about the many items this forum hashes and rehashes as their discovered “bones”... some real and some not. Some, but not much, is chicken from forum members.

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Old 08-28-2018, 08:40 AM   #92
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Methinks all the invectives flying around out here are the bones we need to spit out ... but :

Hey bro Drake. Great to hear from you.


Now we're getting somewhere. We've settled that. Now the question is : how fallible was he? was he just a little bit fallible, or full-fledged?

Is his Recovery a fat chicken? or at bottom just skin and bones? Eater decide. It's amazing what the human body can live on. John the Baptist lived on locust and honey. He prolly didn't care about bones at all. Yum! More protein.

Anyway. My point being, to each his or her own. We've all got to find our way. Sometimes we need help. Just don't get hustled.
We settled that question long ago because he never was infallible.

But Bro awareness, I’d be happy to weigh in on the type of chicken if you provide a chicken scale. Like a 10 on the chicken scale is a big fat chicken breast in a pot of chicken and dumplings like you used to get at the diner around Lake Okeechobee and a 1 being a plate of boiled chicken beaks. If you have such a scale I’d be happy to weigh in.

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Old 08-28-2018, 09:35 AM   #93
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Sorry for the levity in such a serious discussion, but in the words of NYU "Dean Jones" telling Kramer (on Seinfeld) that she can't allow him the use of a business college intern anymore because, "As far as I can tell your entire enterprise is little more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken!"

See Dean Jones' with Kramer at the 1:35 mark
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:38 AM   #94
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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We settled that question long ago because he never was infallible.

But Bro awareness, I’d be happy to weigh in on the type of chicken if you provide a chicken scale. Like a 10 on the chicken scale is a big fat chicken breast in a pot of chicken and dumplings like you used to get at the diner around Lake Okeechobee and a 1 being a plate of boiled chicken beaks. If you have such a scale I’d be happy to weigh in.

Drake
Thanks for the laugh.

But to put it in Christian terms, the scale could be from the fattest chicken, like the RCC, and the skin and bones chicken, like the Primitive Baptists, or Plymouth Brethren.

Where does the Recovery fall on that scale?
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:46 AM   #95
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Sorry for the levity in such a serious discussion, but in the words of NYU "Dean Jones" telling Kramer (on Seinfeld) that she can't allow him the use of a business college intern anymore because, "As far as I can tell your entire enterprise is little more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken!"

See Dean Jones' with Kramer at the 1:35 mark

That's what I thought!


There's no more chicken in Anaheim.
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:48 AM   #96
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Sorry for the levity in such a serious discussion, but in the words of NYU "Dean Jones" telling Kramer (on Seinfeld) that she can't allow him the use of a business college intern anymore because, "As far as I can tell your entire enterprise is little more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken!"

See Dean Jones' with Kramer at the 1:35 mark


don't apologize..... its important to step back...
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:50 AM   #97
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Thanks for the laugh.

But to put it in Christian terms, the scale could be from the fattest chicken, like the RCC, and the skin and bones chicken, like the Primitive Baptists, or Plymouth Brethren.

Where does the Recovery fall on that scale?
Dunno bro .... can't really follow the plot line on that scale....

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Old 08-28-2018, 11:35 AM   #98
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Dunno bro .... can't really follow the plot line on that scale....

Drake
I agree. As I see it, Christendom is the chicken. And there lots of bones in it to spit out ... and it has been quite bony in the past ... archaeologists have found many of them.

I'm glad the local church ain't that way ; into breaking bones. But we haven't determined the bones in the Recovery. Or maybe we have. Brother Indiana has found some.

And there's lots of corroboration that they are real bones.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:13 PM   #99
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I agree. As I see it, Christendom is the chicken. And there lots of bones in it to spit out ... and it has been quite bony in the past ... archaeologists have found many of them.

I'm glad the local church ain't that way ; into breaking bones. But we haven't determined the bones in the Recovery. Or maybe we have. Brother Indiana has found some.

And there's lots of corroboration that they are real bones.
Sure... there are bones and plenty of them... and it doesn't take a genius to see them... nor would it be hard for a proud person to find faults 24 X 365 for years and years..... and yet how does such a person once in the slipstream of such a self-righteous attitude toward others ever break out of that deceptive infinite loop?

I don't know.....

Aren't chicken bones something everybody has to deal with? Sitting down for a good meal .....who spends time commiserating over the presence of bones.....you just avoid the bones.... its simple.

Witness Lee confessed to the presence of bones in his speaking, I have provided examples of what I considered bones in the ministry, from Brother Lee, from a blended brother, and from my firsthand experience. And yet, the crowd cried out for more, not good enough, you devious duck, you know what we want to hear....... bones dem bones, dey ain't real bones, gif us big bones, ugly ones, smellies, so's we can commise oe'r 'em.... and ketch ya...

So, I go back to my original agreement with StG... just eat the chicken and spit out the bones... or the husks.. whatever!

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Old 08-28-2018, 01:36 PM   #100
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Sure... there are bones and plenty of them... and it doesn't take a genius to see them... nor would it be hard for a proud person to find faults 24 X 365 for years and years..... and yet how does such a person once in the slipstream of such a self-righteous attitude toward others ever break out of that deceptive infinite loop?

I don't know.....

Aren't chicken bones something everybody has to deal with? Sitting down for a good meal .....who spends time commiserating over the presence of bones.....you just avoid the bones.... its simple.

Witness Lee confessed to the presence of bones in his speaking, I have provided examples of what I considered bones in the ministry, from Brother Lee, from a blended brother, and from my firsthand experience. And yet, the crowd cried out for more, not good enough, you devious duck, you know what we want to hear....... bones dem bones, dey ain't real bones, gif us big bones, ugly ones, smellies, so's we can commise oe'r 'em.... and ketch ya...

So, I go back to my original agreement with StG... just eat the chicken and spit out the bones... or the husks.. whatever!

Drake
But then there's always, "I have a bone to pick with you." And there's lots'a bones to pick with the local church.

But as brother Indiana has discovered, Kangas and the BB's aren't willing to own up, or repent. But I'm glad you are. So I have no bone to pick with you.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:38 PM   #101
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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Sure... there are bones and plenty of them... and it doesn't take a genius to see them... nor would it be hard for a proud person to find faults 24 X 365 for years and years..... and yet how does such a person once in the slipstream of such a self-righteous attitude toward others ever break out of that deceptive infinite loop?

I don't know.....

Aren't chicken bones something everybody has to deal with? Sitting down for a good meal .....who spends time commiserating over the presence of bones.....you just avoid the bones.... its simple.

Witness Lee confessed to the presence of bones in his speaking, I have provided examples of what I considered bones in the ministry, from Brother Lee, from a blended brother, and from my firsthand experience. And yet, the crowd cried out for more, not good enough, you devious duck, you know what we want to hear....... bones dem bones, dey ain't real bones, gif us big bones, ugly ones, smellies, so's we can commise oe'r 'em.... and ketch ya...

So, I go back to my original agreement with StG... just eat the chicken and spit out the bones... or the husks.. whatever!

Drake
This reminds me a little of trying to pin my wife down on some thing that she has obviously (to me) not seen or done correctly. It usually doesn't go well and miscommunication abounds. ("And there you go again, not owning-up to your faults!") But I get all bothered because I think she should readily admit more fault. In the end, me trying to get her to own-up to something, probably causes more grief than the issue itself! ("Just why can't you see that HUGE spec in your eye?!") And then once again I am brought to the realization of how futile it is trying to get someone else to even see their shortcomings and/or do something about it (at least according to my perception of how all that should go).

I would like to think that I've gained some wisdom in this area, but it takes considerable diligence to keep my self-righteousness from getting all stirred-up in such things. Praise God for my wife!
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:59 PM   #102
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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This reminds me a little of trying to pin my wife down on some thing that she has obviously (to me) not seen or done correctly. It usually doesn't go well and miscommunication abounds. ("And there you go again, not owning-up to your faults!") But I get all bothered because I think she should readily admit more fault. In the end, me trying to get her to own-up to something, probably causes more grief than the issue itself! ("Just why can't you see that HUGE spec in your eye?!") And then once again I am brought to the realization of how futile it is trying to get someone else to even see their shortcomings and/or do something about it (at least according to my perception of how all that should go).

I would like to think that I've gained some wisdom in this area, but it takes considerable diligence to keep my self-righteousness from getting all stirred-up in such things. Praise God for my wife!
I have a wife with similar traits.... must part of the female genome! You and me, we just don’t have the right DNA to outwit them.... and frankly after my time out in the corner she starts to make a whole lotta sense!

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Old 08-28-2018, 02:30 PM   #103
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

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I have a wife with similar traits.... must part of the female genome! You and me, we just don’t have the right DNA to outwit them.... and frankly after my time out in the corner she starts to make a whole lotta sense!

Well I do realize how pointless it is more quickly I think these days (even in the face of the flesh yelling, "You can't let her get away with that . . . AGAIN!!"), and then I somewhat grudgingly turn to the Lord and admit I need His help and life in me.

When my wife and I were courting, she would softly tell me, "I'm perfect for you." She was right you know! LL
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:02 AM   #104
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Default Re: Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

Some disliked my use of the word "braindead" to describe the result of "get out of your mind" in its various forms. My point was, why did Nee get to sort through various sources and create an amalgam "vision"? Why can't every believer look through various sources and drop what isn't useful?

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How about "brain-repressed"? The brain isn't actually dead, it just seems that way. Dormant. I'm trying to stir people up to think.

It's okay to believe. It's also okay to think.

How come Watchman Nee got to think, and Witness Lee, but nobody else? What gives, here?
There's a big peril in "monocropping" - just as in agriculture, it leaves one susceptible to the spread of a bug. Here's a testimony that used similar terms:

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LSM material only, obviously. The military mindset - no opinion - let to say Amen, left me braindead. I found it hard to go shopping after the FTT. I was not used to making my own choices. Some choices were devastating. Using Full Metal Jacket as an analogy, the LSM objective is to promote and protect WL's vision even if that turns you into killer, "a minister of death praying for war". Eventually you kill others. I 'killed' my ex-wife.
To switch metaphors, it's okay to put all your eggs in one basket if that basket is Jesus Christ. Any other servant, reject them on their face. Anyone who puts "ministry first" or "minister first" is fully in the ditch. Don't follow them. "Get out of your mind" was a set-up, prepping us for the Big Squeeze that followed. By then, we were like, "Whatever the Big Boss says is okay". Our brains were fully co-opted by a fellow sinner.
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