Forgiveness

[Trapped]

There is a lot I could say on this topic but will put down a few thoughts to start. In all my general examples I am referring to regular daily relationships with people/friends/Christians, rather than, say, a special one with a spouse. "Damage" or "hurt" spoken of is the deep wounds that inescapably occur in typical human life with fallen, proud, screwed up people (as opposed to physical abuse or anything truly serious like that).

1. 70 x 7. Lee states that 490 is a large enough number that the point is you will have lost count well before you get to it. I realized a month or so ago that 490, while large, is still a finite number. If it was supposed to be essentially infinite, that would have been very easy to state, and 70 x 7 just doesn't equal "infinite" or "boundless" for me.

2. In the LC I grew up under the thought that if someone hurts you and asks for forgiveness, and if you don't forgive them and can't let it go, then you (the one who is hurt) is the one who sins, and the one who hurt you is released and can go on with their life because they apologized and that's all that's expected of them. This has turned out to be a very difficult thing for me with many saints who think "I'm sorry" is enough to undo and erase their prolonged intentional belittling or disregarding, without their putting in the effort to make up for what they've said or undo the multifaceted damage they've done. Is this thought true?

3. I understand we are to forgive as our heavenly Father forgave. However, He forgives when we acknowledge/repent and confess, right? He doesn't forgive what we don't confess. How does this play out when you have people who have knowingly and intentionally hurt you and do not care or their "confession" is clearly not genuine? Are we still asked to forgive then? If yes, as I mentioned, then are we forgiven by the Lord for things we don't confess? If not, how could we then be held to a higher standard than even God if we are expected to do that?

4. On the cross Jesus prayed to the Father to forgive them because they know not what they are doing. This seems to be an example of Jesus forgiving ones who have not asked for it or repented. Are we expected to do the same to that level, and if so, where is that stated in the Bible?

5. Is there any example in the Bible of forgiveness but a change in relationship? The thing I struggle with the most is forgiving and then being expected to return to a heavily damaged relationship as if nothing had happened. Often times the relationship is so permanently changed and damaged, that forgiveness is one thing but what to do about the relationship going forward is completely another. Yes, I know to pray for the ones who have hurt me, yes I know we are to bless our enemies, but to be honest doing those things has never changed my heart towards them.

[Ohio]

I believe that all offenses and all apologies are not created equal. The apology must also match the offense. A two cent apology for a two dollar offense does not really work. The scope of the apology should also match the offense, e.g. a private apology for a private offense is normally adequate, but a public apology is needed for a public offense.

People are not robots, they tend to know how deeply the apology touches the heart. Words should convey that heartfelt conviction. A simple and flippant "sorry" does not work after one's life has been threatened. In the Bible examples, the Lord does use different dollar (shekel?) amounts to convey the various debts incurred by diverse offenses. The ones who owed more had a deeper repentance, and the ones forgiven more had a deeper appreciation and love.

Basic relationships in the LC system tended to suffer the most. Those relationships with headquarters required the most attention, while the ones with the saints were less important. The LC hierarchy was often on full display. When looking "up" the hierarchy, one paid more attention that his apology was completely adequate, but when looking "down" the hierarchy, the same care was not afforded. Some brothers were more "brother" than other brothers. I don't think this brown-nosing man-pleasing side of apologies and forgiveness is pleasing to the Lord.

Sometimes forgiveness is a life-long struggle, especially when you know that an adequate apology will never come. Forgiveness then becomes a decision you must make in the Lord's presence. Often this decision needs to be restated because the pain resurfaces. This is crucial because unforgiveness hurts the "unforgiver" more than the offender. You feel you have been wronged, and are owed a debt that that will never be paid. In these cases, one must ask the Lord, sometimes repeatedly, that He will make up this debt to you with His love and grace.

Retaliation, though appealing on many levels, is not an option for those following the Lord. During one particularly egregious offense, the Lord actually visited me and told me specifically that, "vengeance is Mine, I will repay." It completed stopped me from taking further action. Praise Him.

[Nell]

Trapped,

Possibly the missing piece is "repentance".

"I'm sorry" is sometimes sufficient, but is very often an expression of regret by the offender telling you how they feel about what they did. This may be sufficient in some matters but worthless in others.

When someone repents, genuinely repents, their behavior changes. They stop hurting you (whoever).

I'm sure you've seen and/or heard accounts of an abusive marriage partner who beats their spouse every night, then "apologizes" every morning. There are actual shelters for women (mostly) who are in this situation. It's in our nature to try to "fix" someone who hurts us because we love them. When they apologize in tears and say they will never hurt you again, we believe them, forgive them, and give them 489 more chances. Then in the evening, the abuse cycle begins again. Staying in the "relationship" empowers them to continue their abuse because they count on your forgiveness.

Bottom line, abusive behavior toward another person in the secular realm is unacceptable. At some point, you have a decision to make...walk away or not. Abusive behavior of one Christian toward another in the spiritual realm, plays on your emotions in another way. It falls on the abused Christian to forgive, while the abusive Christian says "I'm sorry" but does not change their behavior. Just as in the example above, you forgive them and they use it against you. This is a serious problem and they have need of much more help than you (likely) can provide. They need serious psychiatric help. They are lying to themselves and others.

You can't fix this problem. It's not your job, nor is it within the realm of your capabilities. Forgive them from a distance. Run! This is why people "leave the church". That is, leave the Local Church. The Local Church takes away your voice. It takes away your right to say "NO". God gave you freedom to choose.

Remember the brother in Corinth who was living in fornication with his father's wife? The church was admonished to give him over to Satan for the ultimate salvation of his soul. This was the only way the church could help this sinning brother. This is extreme, and is evidence of a problem that the entire church could not fix and Paul makes it clear that it was not their job.

Remember the classic Witness Lee "garlic room" example? You become "nose blind" and can't smell the garlic as long as you are in the room. Once you get out of the garlic room and smell the fresh air, the stench of the garlic becomes obvious.

I hope this helps--
Nell

[byHismercy]

I agree with Nell. Forgive from a distance. When old wounds come back to the surface and I feel pain or anger afresh, I just confess my damaged, unloving heart to the Lord each and every time, and I agree with Him, and declare my forgiveness toward the offender all over again. This is the best I can do. Over time, I believe the Lord has been faithful to heal me, slowly, of these old wounds.

In recent months, I had the opportunity to converse with one sister who had hurt us deeply when she closed the door of communication to us last year. While she has determined to allow fellowship between us.....unfortunately it the LC brand of fellowship. She will not allow me to speak the truth if she deems it negative toward Lee(it is), neither will she acknowledge nor respond to anything I speak. She very effectively talks over and past me as if I don't exist. So the offense is simply ongoing. I had to walk away. That doesn't let me off the hook for my forgiveness towards her (them, really) because that forgiveness has to be before the Lord....it is towards them, but between the Lord and I. He forgave me ALL, and I believe He wants me to release ALL. In my decision to walk away from these brothers and sisters, I struggled. I do not want to be found guilty of what they do.

I took Romans 16:17 as His instruction to me.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.

Member when the oldest Duggar son was found to be committing egregious sins against his wife and kids? Months later, the Lord showed me I was holding those offenses against that brother, who has absolutely nothing to do with me.....I had to bow before the Lord and repent, and forgive him....I had not even been aware of this 'unforgiveness' hiding in my being until that moment in prayer. Many times, the offender will not be repentant, and in fact, if they are unsaved, may never turn, nor apologise to you.....I still believe we are called to forgive....ask the Lord to supply this forgiveness in you....didn't He supply the apostle to call the Lord to forgive those stoning him to death, in the act of it? Someone help me, who was that apostle? God is able....while we may not be. He would not require something of us we cannot do! That would be unrighteous! If He lives in you, He is the Righteous God, the One able to forgive....ask Him. God bless you!

[Nell]

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Yes, Stephen. Thanks Nell. This act of forgiveness was surely out from the Lord, supplied to Stephen by Him...

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Yes, Stephen. Thanks Nell. This act of forgiveness was surely out from the Lord, supplied to Stephen by Him...

Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. His being was full of gratitude and joy, seeing he was going to be with Him. I was considering that's how he had the empowering grace to plead for his opposers.

By the way, has there been records of martyrs seeing an encouraging vision while being martyred?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I agree with Nell. Forgive from a distance. When old wounds come back to the surface and I feel pain or anger afresh, I just confess my damaged, unloving heart to the Lord each and every time, and I agree with Him, and declare my forgiveness toward the offender all over again. This is the best I can do. Over time, I believe the Lord has been faithful to heal me, slowly, of these old wounds.

In recent years when old wounds come back to haunt me, I pray "Have mercy on them for You had mercy on me. Forgive them for You forgave me." This prayer has helped me to forgive them and put the memories behind me. I think it is because in my natural self I can't forgive but with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus does the forgiving from my spirit.

I often say, while I forgive (through the Spirit of course) those who have wronged me, it doesn't mean I want them back in my life. I pray they get right with the Lord for their sake and to shame the devil giving GOD all the Glory and Praise for the work of Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

He forgave me ALL, and I believe He wants me to release ALL. In my decision to walk away from these brothers and sisters, I struggled. I do not want to be found guilty of what they do.

Eventually, the Holy Spirit will shine His Glory Light on them and they will either repent for their treatment orrr and I will leave it there for it is between the JUDGE and them.

Great insight! Great post!
Blessings

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. His being was full of gratitude and joy, seeing he was going to be with Him. I was considering that's how he had the empowering grace to plead for his opposers.

By the way, has there been records of martyrs seeing an encouraging vision while being martyred?

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...ing-of-stephen

Hi saints, I read this message to the kids at bedtime last night, it was a good look at Stephens story, if you read it you will see how it is Stephens' victory, and Gods' victory. It really does give a modern believer a picture of how to forgive. What is resonating with me still today is how Stephen was looking `steadfastly' into heaven.....I think this is key. What he was looking for he found. He found the Son standing.....check this out if you have time! Weighing in, MacArthur mentions reading many accounts of martyrs of Christ, and while the answer to your question isn't there, he does say something interesting, I think he said, there are no accounts of martyrs behaving crazed with fear or something to that effect...

byHismercy

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In recent years when old wounds come back to haunt me, I pray "Have mercy on them for You had mercy on me. Forgive them for You forgave me." This prayer has helped me to forgive them and put the memories behind me. I think it is because in my natural self I can't forgive but with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus does the forgiving from my spirit.

I often say, while I forgive (through the Spirit of course) those who have wronged me, it doesn't mean I want them back in my life. I pray they get right with the Lord for their sake and to shame the devil giving GOD all the Glory and Praise for the work of Jesus and His Holy Spirit.





Eventually, the Holy Spirit will shine His Glory Light on them and they will either repent for their treatment orrr and I will leave it there for it is between the JUDGE and them.

Great insight! Great post!
Blessings

Yes, this is good, Countmeworthy!
Forgiveness is the hardest thing for believers, I think...it is sooo easy to hate someone who damages you, especially intentionally! And you do not even have to try, or expend any energy to be angry or hold a grudge, it seems like. But.....I prefer the blessing from the throne of Jesus!! And in my experience, He is so faithful to help, to bless, to supply, to be forgiveness for us, when we do our best to follow His wishes, His commands to us! Tellin' you, that is where it's at! The obedient life is THE life! May He call us all to obedience, to rest in His obedience to His death on the cross! and to remain at His feet, looking steadfastly at His face like Stephen.
byHismercy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...ing-of-stephen

Hi saints, I read this message to the kids at bedtime last night, it was a good look at Stephens story, if you read it you will see how it is Stephens' victory, and Gods' victory. It really does give a modern believer a picture of how to forgive. What is resonating with me still today is how Stephen was looking `steadfastly' into heaven.....I think this is key. What he was looking for he found. He found the Son standing.....check this out if you have time! Weighing in, MacArthur mentions reading many accounts of martyrs of Christ, and while the answer to your question isn't there, he does say something interesting, I think he said, there are no accounts of martyrs behaving crazed with fear or something to that effect...

byHismercy

Thanks for posting the link to that great article on Stephen.

I could not help but contrast this with the cheap message I often heard in the LC concerning Stephen -- that supposedly he was perfected and filled with the Spirit simply by "waiting on tables."

That was the classic LSM takeaway for LC elders -- "Just go wait on tables, we at LSM will do the spiritual labor in the word for you."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for posting the link to that great article on Stephen.

I could not help but contrast this with the cheap message I often heard in the LC concerning Stephen -- that supposedly he was perfected and filled with the Spirit simply by "waiting on tables."

That was the classic LSM takeaway for LC elders -- "Just go wait on tables, we at LSM will do the spiritual labor in the word for you."

What I liked about the message is where he connects the Lord's word that "henceforth you shall see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the almighty" with Stephen confirming this saying I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God the Father".

This was a confirmation that they had rejected the Messiah. This isn't simply the anger or sinners, or anger of those in the world, this is the anger of those who rejected the heir so that the inheritance would be theirs and now they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What I liked about the message is where he connects the Lord's word that "henceforth you shall see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the almighty" with Stephen confirming this saying I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God the Father".

This was a confirmation that they had rejected the Messiah. This isn't simply the anger or sinners, or anger of those in the world, this is the anger of those who rejected the heir so that the inheritance would be theirs and now they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Right! Can you imagine being present for both testimonies.....if there were indeed ones there present to hear Jesus prophesy and then later Stephens' eyewitness testimony....I bet they knew their error as soon as they heard Stephen utter the words, if not before that. I think they must have been filled with fear, but it certainly looked like rage.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for posting the link to that great article on Stephen.

I could not help but contrast this with the cheap message I often heard in the LC concerning Stephen -- that supposedly he was perfected and filled with the Spirit simply by "waiting on tables."

That was the classic LSM takeaway for LC elders -- "Just go wait on tables, we at LSM will do the spiritual labor in the word for you."

What do you think they meant, exactly, Ohio, by 'wait on tables'?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

What do you think they meant, exactly, Ohio, by 'wait on tables'?

Read Acts chapter 6. Stephen and others were appointed by the apostles to take care of the distribution of food to the Greek widows.

[Trapped]

One common theme I hear in some non-LC sermons or messages I have listened to recently about forgiveness is the thought of Jesus forgiving us so much that we are bound in return to forgive others.

I realized that I don't actually have much awareness or experience of the Lord forgiving me, and as I pondered further I realized that I shockingly don't think I need much forgiveness. I don't lead a "sinful life" (so to speak), for example, I don't drink at all, people can leave a $1 bill or a stack of $20,000 in front of me and walk away and be secure in the knowledge that every penny of it will be there when they return, I keep my mouth shut rather than making cutting remarks to people, etc.

The small sins I do commit I tend to excuse or explain away, e.g. I am not quick to anger but when I do get angry it is because I have been pushed and pushed and pushed repeatedly to it, etc.

In general I am "a good church kid" continuing to adulthood and feel the pang of shame pretty readily.....if I was caught in a lie it would be a horrible, horrible feeling and not one I want to feel.

I know just how puffed-up all that sounds, and as I type it I do feel a little ashamed at how dismissive I am being of what I mentally know is the great gift of the Lord's forgiveness......but if I'm not honest then its harder to get the right kind of help.

I know other church kids who have gone off and gotten drunk speeding down roads, who have gone off to sleep with other married people, who are into pornography, who have gone off to a life of clubs, drinking, drugs, casual relations, etc..... I can understand their being "forgiven much". How do you feel "forgiven much" when you generally "color between the lines"?

I guess my question is: has anyone else been in this same position? I need to forgive some astronomical offenses and hurt inflicted upon me by people I cared very much about, but almost feel like I can't forgive them until I understand how much I myself have been forgiven. Except I cannot manufacture "feeling forgiven", I cannot manufacture an appreciation of being forgiven by the Lord which I just don't have. To be totally honest if I wasn't in this difficult situation with some others who have deeply, deeply hurt me, I wouldn't even care that I don't feel or appreciate the Lord's forgiveness towards me.

I know I have "sermon on the mount" sins - i.e. anger in my heart that I don't act on, or lusting in my heart that I don't act on, but I guess it's hard for me to feel like those are things that need to be forgiven if I don't act on it, or something, I don't know.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I realized that I don't actually have much awareness or experience of the Lord forgiving me, and as I pondered further I realized that I shockingly don't think I need much forgiveness.

I appreciate the self reflection and honesty in your post. I sympathize with it and cringe at it all at the same time. In 2014 I was recalibrated (again) to see how far I fall from the Glory of God each day. Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to - the Lord may just help you in a way you don't want to be helped. You can PM me if you're interested in this story.

I was never a "Church Kid" (by the grace of God) - and I know there is a lot of baggage that goes along with that - We can't use things like this an an excuse. It sounds like you're moving in the right direction, honestly identify the issue and let the Spirit work through this (and if you're like me - DESPITE you). Blessings in your journey.

I wonder if the problem is the thought that you're too "good" (or insert your preferred phrase here) or don't realize how "good" God is (grasp His perfect, holy, and just nature?)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I appreciate the self reflection and honesty in your post. I sympathize with it and cringe at it all at the same time. In 2014 I was recalibrated (again) to see how far I fall from the Glory of God each day. Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to - the Lord may just help you in a way you don't want to be helped. You can PM me if you're interested in this story.

I was never a "Church Kid" (by the grace of God) - and I know there is a lot of baggage that goes along with that - We can't use things like this an an excuse. It sounds like you're moving in the right direction, honestly identify the issue and let the Spirit work through this (and if you're like me - DESPITE you). Blessings in your journey.

I wonder if the problem is the thought that you're too "good" (or insert your preferred phrase here) or don't realize how "good" God is (grasp His perfect, holy, and just nature?)

LofT,

I am fully on board with your cringing at my post. I know how arrogant and blind it sounds.

It's funny that you mention the verse about thinking more highly of yourself. I actually have pervasive thoughts about how worthless and unwanted I am to the point where I feel sorry for people who have to interact much with me or have me in their lives in any extensive way because I assume most people don't want to or would prefer not to, given the choice. I actually had an elder use that very verse to show me that although we shouldn't think more highly of ourselves than we ought, there is still the "ought".....meaning there is an "ought" level of height to which we should esteem ourselves.....just not more highly than we ought though.

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death. Alternatively, if you won't forgive, then you are in open rebellion towards God, and discipline is coming your way....and you should be scared!

I think after hearing that I am more scared that I'm not scared. What do you do then?

In thinking further about it, I think what it comes down to is I have a hard time accepting blame when I didn't cause any of this. I didn't create the universe, I didn't create man and put them in front of two trees, I wasn't the one who was in the garden fellowshipping with God but who listened to the snake and ate the forbidden tree instead thus injecting sin into all subsequent humans. I was just born. I was born, out of my control, and with the sin nature, out of my control, so why should I feel bad when I'm not perfect? I'm not responsible for any of the whole shebang. Please don't get me wrong - I am not numb to my conscience necessarily, I definitely feel the hot flush of shame if I'm caught doing something I shouldn't, I can't lie and look someone in the eye at the same time, if I want with everything in me to retaliate against someone I am inwardly prevented from doing it. But as far as the awareness of my dirt and sin or my need of forgiveness, I don't have that much. Even the thought that "my sin put the Lord on the cross".....well, I sin because I was born with the sin nature, none of us are immune, so since it's not something I had any power to prevent why should I whip myself over it?

I think I'm making the cringing worse and frankly kind of feel like I'm Pharoah typing with a hardened heart, but again, I have to be transparent here in case anyone who understands can give any advice or experience that would help.

Trapped

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death. Alternatively, if you won't forgive, then you are in open rebellion towards God, and discipline is coming your way....and you should be scared!

I think after hearing that I am more scared that I'm not scared. What do you do then?

In thinking further about it, I think what it comes down to is I have a hard time accepting blame when I didn't cause any of this.

Sorry to butt in, but brother Trapped, maybe you should stop listening to sermons.

"I was born here and I'll die here, against my will ..." Bob Dylan- Not Dark Yet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I realized that I don't actually have much awareness or experience of the Lord forgiving me, and as I pondered further I realized that I shockingly don't think I need much forgiveness.

I know just how puffed-up all that sounds, and as I type it I do feel a little ashamed at how dismissive I am being of what I mentally know is the great gift of the Lord's forgiveness......but if I'm not honest then its harder to get the right kind of help.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I am fully on board with your cringing at my post. I know how arrogant and blind it sounds.

I think I'm making the cringing worse and frankly kind of feel like I'm Pharoah typing with a hardened heart, but again, I have to be transparent here in case anyone who understands can give any advice or experience that would help.

Trapped, you remind me more of Job than Pharoah, in fact, the Pharoah comment seems unwarranted. One of the key features of Job was not just his intense loss and suffering, but how his friends and community completely turned on him believing that his misfortunes resulted from some hidden sin and his unwillingness to repent. Since Job was cognizant of no known sin, he refused to repent in order to appease them, which would then make him a liar and a man-pleaser.

Yet in his attempts to communicate his uprightness of heart and exemplary walk, he did approach self-righteousness at times, not recognizing God's ultimate position and authority over all creation. Many lessons were taught in this book, not just for the chief of sinners (more like myself), but also for good and honorable men, perhaps like yourself. What hurt Job the most was how mistreated he was, and what humbled him was knowing God.

All of us must surrender and be humbled by the mercy of God. For example, I visited a small country church yesterday. The minister at one point commented that he was saved by the Lord from a horrible life of drugs, drinking, and crime. Since I didn't know him, I assumed that was his life before salvation. Soon in his message I realized that he never participated in that lifestyle, but still was forever grateful to the Lord that he was not.

Trapped, like Job you have been hurt by others. "And the Lord restored Job completely when he prayed for his friends." -- Job 42.10

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry to butt in, but brother Trapped, maybe you should stop listening to sermons.

True dat! Spritual and psycological damage can be inflicted by self-assured bible thumpers. Sheep should watch out for false shepherds.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

True dat! Spritual and psycological damage can be inflicted by self-assured bible thumpers. Sheep should watch out for false shepherds.

Evidence of a true shepherd would be if he/she is continually before the Great Shepherd pleading that He would enable them to better shepherd His flock. Evidence of an evil shepherd might be if he is more concerned with being absolute for a man's ministry rather than shepherding the flock according to Christ's example.

[UntoHim]

Why would Trapped want to stop listening to sermons? Trapped is a Christian and believes in the God of the Bible. As others have pointed out, we all have to exercise discernment (and even a little common sense) when accepting the teachings of any man.

Originally Posted by Trapped

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death.

I don't know who was giving the sermon and the overall context of this quote, but it is absolutely biblical and absolutely good advise!

Originally Posted by Trapped

But as far as the awareness of my dirt and sin or my need of forgiveness, I don't have that much. Even the thought that "my sin put the Lord on the cross".....well, I sin because I was born with the sin nature, none of us are immune, so since it's not something I had any power to prevent why should I whip myself over it?

Thank's for your frankness and honesty. I believe a lot of Christians feel the same way, especially those who have been raised in, or spent many years in, groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee, where the Gospel has been either diluted, corrupted or just flat out changed. You see, the exposing and condemnation of sin is only a part of the Gospel, and if we stop at the exposing and condemnation of sin, we are selling God and what the Gospel offers terribly short.

Let me give a quick example of what I mean - We are all very familiar with the story of "The Woman at the Well" in John 4. The Lord Jesus did not instantly rip into the women about her having 5 husbands. What He did do was to offer her the ultimate gift of living water that she may have eternal life. Only after offering the woman the living water did the Lord Jesus ask her to "go, call your husband, and come here". This comports perfectly with what Jesus told Nicodemus in the previous chapter - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17)

Actually the Lord Jesus was not sent by the Father to judge and condemn, (although he will eventually judge and condemn mightily at the Judgement) and he does not currently stand at the right hand of the Father to judge and condemn those who belong to him, rather he stands as a "merciful and faithful high priest" (Heb 2:17) and "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2). There is much more to say of course, however I believe that some of us (me included) have a tendency to not keep our eyes on the message of the full and complete Gospel.

Trapped, you have a good and honest heart! God will always honor this if you put your faith in him and his Word. I'll leave you with one more great verse in Hebrews - But without faith it is impossible to please him. For he that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out. (Heb 11:6 Darby)
-

[Nell]

Hi Trapped,

After I read your posts #16 and #20, I thought of this old, beloved hymn, "Just as I Am". Your posts might "inspire" the thought "Just as I am, warts and all."

I think every Christian is blessed to come to the place where they can write what you did. I think the Lord has you right where He wants you!

Blessings to you Trapped--
Nell



Original Lyrics from Charlotte Elliot, 1835
Just as I am - without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - though toss'd about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need, in Thee to find,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - Thy love unknown
Has broken every barrier down;
Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove
Here for a season, then above,
-O Lamb of God, I come

[Trapped]

awareness and HERn, I should have included more of the surrounding sermon for better context but was trying to save space. In short, the pastor spoke of Colossians 3:12-13, which says "....as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."

The scripture is saying you must forgive, in the same way the Lord has forgiven you. It's essentially a command. This is why if you refuse to forgive, you either don't understand the depth of the Lord's free gift of forgiveness ("as the Lord has forgiven you") and must not think you are that bad, or, you do understand it but in refusing to forgive you are disobeying a command from the Lord, and are thus rebelling against Him. Either way.....whether you think you are pretty good, or are disobeying God, neither is a place you should be comfortable in. I have to agree, even though I'm in one of those places and worryingly comfortable.

He talked about the difference between letting someone off the hook but their sin is still on your "mental account" versus actual Biblical forgiveness where you don't take revenge, you forgive completely, and you forgive repeatedly. All of which come at a price! I am VERY much a "mental account" type of person who doesn't want to pay the additional price on top of being wronged of forgiving completely and repeatedly without revenge.

There was a lot more but I'll say this one other thing. He mentioned that Joseph (of the coat of many colors) was able to forgive his brothers for selling him into slavery because he trusted in God's sovereignty. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." That's a very hard one for me because I just don't trust that God's sovereignty is ever going to work out well for me, and I mean EVER. This ties back to God and His heart for me being misrepresented to me for decades in the local churches, but has also seemed to play out in my life oftentimes too. It's difficult to trust in God's sovereignty when things don't go well or when you are suffering. Let me rephrase - it's not difficult to trust that God is still sovereign and over all even in the midst of my suffering.....but it IS VERY difficult to trust that God in His sovereignty cares at all or will ever use it for actual good that will comfort or remotely work out well for me, and that He isn't just watching it all play out with an unfeeling heart, and doesn't care to use it in ways that won't absolutely gut or knife me and send me reeling for months or years.

[Trapped]

Ohio, thanks for sharing about Job. It's been a long time since I've read anything from the book of Job; I will get into it again.

I do very much feel like a victim in my particular circumstance at the moment of having been repeatedly backstabbed by saints I cared very much about (to the point that even my life was related to the cadence of their life) and who have even come to the point of blaming me for being hurt by, thoroughly bewildered by, and not able to immediately get over their utterly betraying actions. But I also have to admit I am a self-righteous victim who doesn't see or won't admit that I've offended and hurt others who forgave me....I come from the perspective of thinking I'm just this pure lamb who everyone hurts. I guess it's a log/speck thing where I'm blind to my own faults.

Because of the portion that says to bless your enemies, I have in tears (anger tears, if there is such a thing) made myself pray several times, "Lord, bless [saint 1] and [saint 2]." Nothing in me wants them to be blessed. NOTHING. On the contrary, I want them to suffer loss. It does help soften me in the moment, yes. But then I get hung up on looking for results, like "Okay, Lord, I did the impossible thing of praying for You to bless them, now what? What are You going to do? Now how are You going to reconcile the situation?" and I don't have the patience to wait for progress or a change that may never come, and so I get discouraged.

I need the Lord's forgiveness.

UntoHim, I Googled "born sinful so why feel guilty" last night and came across an example that helped me. If there is a gardener working on someone's property, and the owner comes out and says "Hey, don't go near that gigantic pit over there or you may fall in and it is impossible to get out", but the gardener runs over and jumps right in that pit and cannot get out, well, that was his fault and the gardener is accountable for his action.

If we replace the gardener with a pregnant woman, and the woman has her baby while in the pit, the child didn't do anything of his own accord to end up in the pit....he was just born in the pit. But because of that he needs to be saved out of the pit!!! To circle back to your post, the Lord doesn't come to judge and condemn those "born in the pit"....He comes to save them.

This may sound totally basic but understand that I was loaded with vastly premature knowledge (and possibly wrong knowledge in some areas, I am now starting to realize) at a young age and could roll spiritual sounding phrases off my tongue like nobody's business even though it all never meant anything to me. The flavor of Witness Lee perfused through every word just never clicked with my palate and basic concepts like this finally landing in my ears through a non-WL megaphone are revelationary.

Nell, as I read the hymn, I was reminded of a phrase that I think Ron Kangas used to say, which is "just be who you are until you are different." In a sense that is a little freeing, but in another sense I ended up using it as an excuse to both remain in and excuse my condition. "Just as I am" recognizes that our condition is not a positive one but that God receives us anyway. Much better!

The Lord may have me where He wants me but man, is it hard to be at rest when you don't know where He's taking you!!!

[byHismercy]

Trapped, don't forget, your Lord is the One who posesses all authority in heaven, and all authority in earth. They were given Him that day He chose to die rather than allow you to suffer the cost for your sin. He is filled with power. I know you know your guilt of sin because you use the word cringeworthy as you have shared and bared your condition here. Jesus doesn't want you to beat yourself up for your sin either. He chose to receive your lashes upon His own flesh. He is filled with mercy and compassion for YOU. You can ask Him for anything you lack. He was tried with temptation as a man so He could understand and have compassion for us.

Just tell Him everything, and ask Him anything. Tell Him, Lord, I don't think I am that bad, that sinful! Shine Your light on all hidden things of darkness, Lord. Tell Him, Lord, I want to keep an account of the wrongs done me. What do You want, Lord? If you think you might be lukewarm, confess this too. Ask Him to give you a burning heart, hot for Him. I pray for this whenever I sense lukewarmness in myself. Just talk to Him. I know His compassion is a deep well for us. He promised to never leave you alone, Trapped! That means you are not alone in this life! You are not alone in your condition, either....

byHismercy

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Trapped, don't forget, your Lord is the One who posesses all authority in heaven, and all authority in earth. They were given Him that day He chose to die rather than allow you to suffer the cost for your sin. He is filled with power. I know you know your guilt of sin because you use the word cringeworthy as you have shared and bared your condition here. Jesus doesn't want you to beat yourself up for your sin either. He chose to receive your lashes upon His own flesh. He is filled with mercy and compassion for YOU. You can ask Him for anything you lack. He was tried with temptation as a man so He could understand and have compassion for us.

Just tell Him everything, and ask Him anything. Tell Him, Lord, I don't think I am that bad, that sinful! Shine Your light on all hidden things of darkness, Lord. Tell Him, Lord, I want to keep an account of the wrongs done me. What do You want, Lord? If you think you might be lukewarm, confess this too. Ask Him to give you a burning heart, hot for Him. I pray for this whenever I sense lukewarmness in myself. Just talk to Him. I know His compassion is a deep well for us. He promised to never leave you alone, Trapped! That means you are not alone in this life! You are not alone in your condition, either....

byHismercy

Excellent advice...and don't hold back. It's not like he doesn't know what you're thinking anyway. He already knows what you think and he loves you just as you are.

Unload. You don't have to "be nice". You won't hurt His feelings or make him mad. Be as honest with Him as you are with us. In fact, take your 2 posts and read them to Him.

He's a big boy, He can take it! Of course, you may need to apologize and/or repent to Him later, but you can do that. I think this kind of conversation is the essence of having a "walk with God." He's your friend. You can tell him anything or everything. You can be honest with Him.

Another prayer I pray frequently is "Lord, please don't let me be deceived."

Nell

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

awareness and HERnGenesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." That's a very hard one for me because I just don't trust that God's sovereignty is ever going to work out well for me, and I mean EVER. This ties back to God and His heart for me being misrepresented to me for decades in the local churches, but has also seemed to play out in my life oftentimes too. It's difficult to trust in God's sovereignty when things don't go well or when you are suffering. Let me rephrase - it's not difficult to trust that God is still sovereign and over all even in the midst of my suffering.....but it IS VERY difficult to trust that God in His sovereignty cares at all or will ever use it for actual good that will comfort or remotely work out well for me, and that He isn't just watching it all play out with an unfeeling heart, and doesn't care to use it in ways that won't absolutely gut or knife me and send me reeling for months or years.

But, Trapped, I have to say, coming from my own sad and distasteful experience with the Local Church, that I see His sovereign hand working over your life......did He not remove you from a deception you may not have been aware of? Would you not rather know the truth, even if it was a painful lesson to learn? I am so grateful Jesus kept my children from being indoctrinated into lies, and, moreover, they will always know to be watchful of erring doctrine, because we talk about that now. Watching out for deception is 'on our radar' now in a way it never was before. All for the experience we suffered through, being deceived by the Lee ministry. So much good is coming from this negative experience. We can praise Him for loving us so much, He would not allow us to remain in any deception...and who knows how He will use this walking forward? My favorite ministers are the precious saints who have come out of their own veil to Christ alone. Some ones the Lord ministers to me through the most are those coming out of SDA, Mormonism, Jehovahs Witness....who have come back to the simple trust in Christ and His word. You may not see what a mercy this is, yet.

Satan wants to convince you that God doesn't love you, folks better off without knowing you, etc. It's a lie. Don't receive it from the enemy, brother. Tell Jesus, You love me unto Your own death on the cross, Lord. Choose to believe what He speaks to you through His word. You can reject the negative thoughts the enemy would have you believe into. Tell Jesus you reject them. If you resist Satan, he flees. God bless you with fresh eyes for His word, His truth, and His love for you, Trapped.

byHismercy

[BlueOrchid]

Hi all,
Was doing some lurking and had to log back in to share relating to this post.
I posted on this forum earlier this year then never did again because I didn't feel I had anything to say. I came back to reply to this post
Trapped, hi. I really resonate with your heart and what you have expressed in this post.

I used to be in a similar place.

I fell into a deep depression after learning the truth. In a way I mourned for my young self when I thought I had it all together. I was so proud and religious, and thought I was better than a lot of people, despite my self esteem was awful!
I was so envious of those who had it together, those who knew their purpose, and those who knew what their calling was in the Kingdom of God. I felt so isolated because the beliefs I had held onto as part of myself were isolating me from forming real relationships in the body of Christ.

I believe that followers of Jesus Christ are all over the earth and not in a building. I do not meet in any building. I believe that we all have a throne in our hearts, and Jesus is on the throne in my heart. I believe the abomination of desolation is when anything other than Jesus Christ is on the throne of our hearts, claiming to be God. There are so many distractions and so many seemingly "good" things that want to take the throne in our hearts. But false light is still false light.

I knew that I was listening to false light because I did not have peace... I knew there were things in my life that were wrong and it was so depressing to me because I couldn't change it no matter how much I tried. It really solidified the fact that we cannot add our own righteousness to the righteousness of God.

A series of events that happened this year caused me to get more and more desperate for being right with God and more intimate than I ever had been, even as a child.
I had the feeling to get baptized. No one there to baptize me, so I asked Jesus to baptize me in spirit, in the bathtub! After I kept praying, I was really yearning to be fully filled with the Holy Spirit. Being filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit is our escape from temptation. Although when we are first saved and have an initial Infilling of the Holy Spirit it's not the fullness of what God wants to give us. And I was so depressed I knew I needed this!!!

But nothing was working so I started fasting. On the second day of my fast I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!!! And it was the most amazing experience. Once you literally feel how much God loves you it erases every doubt and gives you an amazing hope.

I was reading on here once and someone had commented how Witness Lee was not for the Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues, but it was a different way of contacting The Lord through pray reading, etc. Well at that point I thought, I am doing the opposite!!
I have a friend who was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues when she was a young child. I did some more research... Anyhow this was in and around the time I had gotten baptized and was seeking the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I did end up getting the gift of speaking in tongues. Praying in the spirit. Prayer language. Whatever you want to call it. I got it 3 days later!! During my fast I had some manifestations. It showed me there were things in my life that needed to get broken off and it didn't happen until I humbled myself and cried out to God and didn't hold anything back. I believe I wouldn't have been able to experience the spiritual war that was happening within me if I hadn't have fasted. I was so desperate I didn't want to eat anyway.

I ended up being extremely sick on the 5th day but I broke my fast after that and had peace doing so. I believe when the strongholds were broken spiritually it manifested physically and those ugly roots planted in me even before I was born got ripped out!!!

I was finally able to have the faith and hope that God wanted to bless me and be there for me And it really helps when I am feeling down. I still have ups and downs and still get discouraged but I can actually "pray through" those feelings and then just be surrounded by the most amazing peace. Jesus is the Prince of Peace <3 and now have the spiritual "juice" to pray and labor for others in the spirit, it's seriously the best thing in my life!!!

Thank you Father in Heaven, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, thank you Jesus, Holy Spirit of God, my beautiful, Holy Creator<3 I bless you with all that I am!

I can share more if you want me to... I could go on and on and on. Maybe this is meant for a different thread, but I don't want all the attention on me. I just want you to know I am praying for you and I understand where you are coming from. I was once there. And we don't have to feel like we are on islands all by ourselves! There is hope even and especially when you least expect it.

God bless you with His beautiful joy and merriness and goodness and peace and love!!!
<3 BlueOrchid

Ps my username comes from the song "Blue Orchid" from the album Get Behind Me Satan by the White Stripes. I love this song!! I listened to it a lot when I was grieving and angry. Give it a listen. It's dubbed my church life/dark era of my life song. I'm not blue anymore tho

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

... those ugly roots planted in me even before I was born got ripped out!!

Blue,

I don’t understand what you mean by the above. It may require a separate thread but before we jump to that conclusion perhaps you could just clarify what you meant.

I can find no scriptural support for it so perhaps you were just overcome by the ecstasy of glossia when you typed that statement.

Thanks
Drake

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by Drake

Blue,

I don’t understand what you mean by the above. It may require a separate thread but before we jump to that conclusion perhaps you could just clarify what you meant.

I can find no scriptural support for it so perhaps you were just overcome by the ecstasy of glossia when you typed that statement.

Thanks
Drake

Look up Deuteronomy 28. Blessings and or curses fall down the family line. If your family is involved with certain sins up the line it can impact you today.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

Look up Deuteronomy 28. Blessings and or curses fall down the family line. If your family is involved with certain sins up the line it can impact you today.

I see. You’re saying that at some point in your Christian experience you sensed that you were rescued from a negative family history that had been passed down..... the very roots of that negative inheritance being pulled out in your experience.

You were not suggesting that the sin nature you were born was removed. If so, we should take that up in a new thread.

Drake

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by Drake

I see. You’re saying that at some point in your Christian experience you sensed that you were rescued from a negative family history that had been passed down..... the very roots of that negative inheritance being pulled out in your experience.

You were not suggesting that the sin nature you were born was removed. If so, we should take that up in a new thread.

Drake

Yea... I need to start a new thread but I don't know how...
UntoHim, help me out?!

[UntoHim]

BlueOrchid,

Go the the main Forum page:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/

You can then scan down until you see a sub-forum that seems to be within the general subject you want to post about. Then click on that particular sub-forum and you will see a list of all the threads already started. At the top left there is a button entitled "New Thread". Go ahead and hit that button. You will be asked to give the thread a Title. Please try to keep the title as short as practical.

Let me know if you have any problems.

Thanks for jumping back into the fray!

Your brother who is unto Him.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But, Trapped, I have to say, coming from my own sad and distasteful experience with the Local Church, that I see His sovereign hand working over your life......did He not remove you from a deception you may not have been aware of? Would you not rather know the truth, even if it was a painful lesson to learn? I am so grateful Jesus kept my children from being indoctrinated into lies, and, moreover, they will always know to be watchful of erring doctrine, because we talk about that now. Watching out for deception is 'on our radar' now in a way it never was before. All for the experience we suffered through, being deceived by the Lee ministry. So much good is coming from this negative experience. We can praise Him for loving us so much, He would not allow us to remain in any deception...and who knows how He will use this walking forward? My favorite ministers are the precious saints who have come out of their own veil to Christ alone. Some ones the Lord ministers to me through the most are those coming out of SDA, Mormonism, Jehovahs Witness....who have come back to the simple trust in Christ and His word. You may not see what a mercy this is, yet.

Satan wants to convince you that God doesn't love you, folks better off without knowing you, etc. It's a lie. Don't receive it from the enemy, brother. Tell Jesus, You love me unto Your own death on the cross, Lord. Choose to believe what He speaks to you through His word. You can reject the negative thoughts the enemy would have you believe into. Tell Jesus you reject them. If you resist Satan, he flees. God bless you with fresh eyes for His word, His truth, and His love for you, Trapped.

byHismercy

byHismercy,

Thanks for your response. Actually it is so very true what you posted. There was a day several months back where the truth was revealed that many of the hurtful actions done by these saints were indeed intentional, and the day after I found that out I woke up still reeling. All I could think was that I desperately needed to do something different and new to get my mind off of all the things that were said and get away from the realm these people were in.

So I went that morning, for the first time in my life, to a non-LC church. Which set me down a path of visiting several churches, which I am continuing to this day. In one of these churches I have found very clear speaking with much light and revelation that has helped me more in the past few months than I've ever gotten from decades in "the church".

I spent my whole life never ever having an answer to the question "what did you enjoy?" after I was forced to read yet another portion from yet another Witness Lee ministry book that never, ever did anything for me. Now I am hearing things from the Bible that I can easily answer "what did you enjoy?" to and that actually make me want to share my answer with people.

The mental mountain it takes for a church kid to put on their shoes and step foot inside another church, and particularly to do it with an open mind, was so formidable that it actually took a year-long, horrible, gutting-to-my-core situation to push me to climb that mountain. I never would have otherwise.

Satan still does a fantastic job convincing me that folks are better off without me, mostly because he cunningly keeps using the people who know me the best and who I am the closest to to communicate that thought to me, but hopefully I'll make progress there too some day.

Thanks again,

Trapped

[BlueOrchid]

Thanks, UntoHim, it worked!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

byHismercy,

Thanks for your response. Actually it is so very true what you posted. There was a day several months back where the truth was revealed that many of the hurtful actions done by these saints were indeed intentional, and the day after I found that out I woke up still reeling. All I could think was that I desperately needed to do something different and new to get my mind off of all the things that were said and get away from the realm these people were in.

So I went that morning, for the first time in my life, to a non-LC church. Which set me down a path of visiting several churches, which I am continuing to this day. In one of these churches I have found very clear speaking with much light and revelation that has helped me more in the past few months than I've ever gotten from decades in "the church".

I spent my whole life never ever having an answer to the question "what did you enjoy?" after I was forced to read yet another portion from yet another Witness Lee ministry book that never, ever did anything for me. Now I am hearing things from the Bible that I can easily answer "what did you enjoy?" to and that actually make me want to share my answer with people.

The mental mountain it takes for a church kid to put on their shoes and step foot inside another church, and particularly to do it with an open mind, was so formidable that it actually took a year-long, horrible, gutting-to-my-core situation to push me to climb that mountain. I never would have otherwise.

Satan still does a fantastic job convincing me that folks are better off without me, mostly because he cunningly keeps using the people who know me the best and who I am the closest to to communicate that thought to me, but hopefully I'll make progress there too some day.

Thanks again,

Trapped

I completely empathize with you, and I believe I know what you must have gone through. Getting back to an assembly without fearing that LC damage is hard to do. After you get run down by a bus, you need Jesus to send an ambulance and the EMTs, not a motivational speaker. Coming through the LC ringer is the bus in this clumsy analogy.

I can only imagine what it must have been like for you to have received the Lee ministry as a trusting child, taught and believing things which are (now) so apparently in error.

I was not a child but a young adult when I met and entered this group. I was newly saved and in the word...but I really fell for the charismatic enthusiasm for Lees' ministry and the love bombing by the saints in my city who really were supporting the Full Timers in the training and the college campus ministry which they participate in as part of their 'curriculum'. The FTTAers shepherded me on my campus and brought me into the home meetings of the saints in Huntington Beach.

I so completely believed the ritualistic 'poisoning' the LC dishes out against the rest of christianity that even after years in their system, having given up all hope of being able to contribute, or function as they did(prophesying publicly in the meetings) that I just finally told the Lord that I couldn't do it and asked Him for His permission to give it up entirely. He gave it to me....however, I foolishly held to my faith in the ministry and believed 100% there was no other church with the truth, I mean, how could they have the truth....they didn't even see the basics....clergy/laity etc. So I dropped out of meeting with the LCers but was deceived about going anywhere else. That is what the Lee lies did to me. Shortly before my personal quarantining by LC saints, Jesus just put His own desire and love in my heart, and it was two fold....to get in the word every day and to meet with any believer anywhere He takes me. I was so eager to practice these 2 things....and the last communications I ever had with my LC 'friends' did not match up at all with what He was giving me at home, in prayer. I have a new testimony of Jesus faithfulness towards our family coming....I would love to share it here on the forum sometime soon.

I feel I also know what you have experienced with that feeling of rejection. I think I know that spirit well, Satan has used it against me my whole life through, and especially with the LC ones at the end of my time there. I really do think what we experience as rejection is actually an evil spirit, a principality of the air, doing its' best to damage, no, destroy us, individually. I remember at the time of my (LC) shunning I was also going through something similar in my family dynamics, similar shunning, coming from a couple different (unsaved) family members, and I was hurting pretty badly. Over time I began to recognize the wicked spirit working through these family members was exactly the same spirit I was dealing with in the LC saints. That realization opened my eyes big time. I know God allowed every painful situation to occur simultaneously so He could allow a little divine light to shine into my heart and mind. I encourage you again to reject those feelings. Trust in His will for your life. If He wasn't madly in love with you, He wouldn't have submitted to the death of the cross. That was proof positive of His real, deep, and abiding love for you.

I know Jesus, and I know He has good things planned for your life, and He wants you to trust in Him, fully. He is completely faithful to everything He gave us in His word. Just trust Him. May He heal us all from the pain and wounds inflicted by the Lee ministry, and may He bring us about face, turned to His face, trusting in Him, leaving all else behind. This is my prayer for all the saints here, in and out of the LC.

God bless you, Trapped!

[flyonthewall]

Hello all.

Has anyone here ever been in a situation where people who have repeatedly hurt you more than you ever thought possible, turn around and put you in the position of demanding that you apologize to them for any patching up to occur?

To say it another way, the person who hurt you also somehow wants you to apologize.

I'm in this situation and wrestling big time. Not only wrestling with forgiveness but now being expected to apologize when I myself am the one who is out of breath at the pain I've endured. I know that this is what God did for us - we hurt Him and He took the blame for our actions, but is this required of us too? That we take the blame for someone else's hurtful actions upon us? In other words, am I sinning if I don't apologize in this scenario?

any experiences or input is appreciated. thank you.

flyonthewall

[ZNPaaneah]

We are responsible to "as much as is possible be at peace with others". We also have been given the ministry of reconciliation, so we should take responsibility to reconcile with others.

Now if this person has approached you in this way it appears there is an opening for reconciliation. That does not mean that the response should be a bogus apology.

Instead, why not carefully consider how to speak the truth to them in love. Tell them how they hurt you. You are also responsible to do that. The Lord said if we have anything against anyone before we take the Lord's table we need to go to that person and be reconciled with them.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by flyonthewall

Hello all.

Has anyone here ever been in a situation where people who have repeatedly hurt you more than you ever thought possible, turn around and put you in the position of demanding that you apologize to them for any patching up to occur?

To say it another way, the person who hurt you also somehow wants you to apologize.

I'm in this situation and wrestling big time. Not only wrestling with forgiveness but now being expected to apologize when I myself am the one who is out of breath at the pain I've endured. I know that this is what God did for us - we hurt Him and He took the blame for our actions, but is this required of us too? That we take the blame for someone else's hurtful actions upon us? In other words, am I sinning if I don't apologize in this scenario?

any experiences or input is appreciated. thank you.

flyonthewall

Flyonthewall,

Apologize for what? To what end? Reconciliation? What do they want from you, or what do they “really” want? Are the “offenses” about sin or about hurtful or offensive behavior? What happens if you don’t apologize?

That may be obvious in your situation, but I wouldn’t assume so. I would want it crystal clear, up front, what the party expects from you. Make sure ALL “offenses” are on the table and in the light, including their offenses. Will there be a conversation or will it just be you acquiescing to their wishes? If you do apologize, what next?

Also, apologies or “I’m sorry” only tells how someone “feels” about what they did, and may be far from reconciliation and/or repentance.

Nell

[Ohio]

Welcome flyonthewall to the forum,

The Bible's demands concerning apologies and forgiveness usually place the heavier responsibility on the offended party. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others," and "If anyone should have a complaint against anyone, as the Lord forgave you, so also should you forgive," (Col 3.13) come to mind. But, of course, Matthew 18 comes to mind for those who have been wronged.

Trying to examine my own history in this matter, I can think of three situations where apologies were unwarranted, yet demanded by others.

1. Marriage. Here I would usually succumb to my spouse's demands for me to apologize, thinking that there were probably hundreds of things I got away with anyways. Love covers. Love endures.
2. Weaker saint. Some young ones need an apology to feel better. Kind of like "kissing a boo-boo."
3. Manipulation. Demanding an apology gives one power over another. This is probably where Nell was going with her questions. In a power struggle, demanding an apology brings one under submission. One can "play the victim" to get the upper hand. This tactic can be used in gas-lighting.

Read the article on gas-lighting I provided. Sounds like this may be at work in your situation. Understand the techniques being used so that you are not taken advantage of.

Personally I have been gas-lighted on a few occasions, and once it almost drove me to take my life. Be careful. Be wise. Seek counsel. I'll pray for you.

I encourage you to journal your interactions. Documentation helps to objectify your thoughts. Documentation also enables you to readily seek 3rd party Christian counsel.

Hopefully Igzy can weigh in on this also.

[flyonthewall]

Your link to gaslighting almost perfectly describes my exact situation. My jaw dropped. Thank you Nell and Ohio for going down that pathway in your response. This has seriously helped me.

I fully understand what you mean about almost being driven to take your life. It has absolutely undermined every mental foundation my reality sits on, especially when I never would expect it from people I trusted, and especially when I didn't even know such a thing exists. This information has helped very much to arm me. I knew these things were happening but since I didn't have an external source like this to confirm the existence of this kind of thing, I have almost driven myself crazy repeatedly going over the interactions I've had where reality was denied because I know without a doubt what I experienced but the other party so repeatedly twisted it, and so confidently too.

-Blatant lies that are then denied? check
-Deny they said things you know without a doubt they said? check
-Cutting out things that are important to you? check
-Dragged it out over a long period, making you wait repeatedly? check
-Words and actions don't match at all? check
-Throw in positive reinforcement to confuse? check
-Project their own actions and traits on you? check
-Turn other people against me? check
-Tell you that you are the problem? check

It's just manipulation! I didn't know Christians could be like this. It's like they are conscience-less. They hurt me and then told me I hurt them. They are obsessed with a strange thought and are claiming I'm obsessed. They have lied repeatedly and denied they lied. They claim they have explained and apologized, but have not explained and the apology was in no way heartfelt or followed by actions that matched. When they claim they explained why they hurt me, I ask "remind me of your explanation?" the response is "no explanation will be enough for you." They claim "you just misunderstood some things" and I ask "what did I misunderstand?" and the response is "I don't have anything to say." It has driven me to the brink of mental breakdown. This is the first time in a long time that I feel like I have a little foundation under my feet again. Thank you.


ZNPaaneah, I understand exactly what you said and I agree with it, I just don't know what my responsibilities are in terms of reconciliation in this kind of situation. This is not a normal situation. I can go the extra mile but I think I will just be walking myself into another wound. One of the elders in my church is pushing me to apologize, claiming "grace will flow" but the actions of the other party have been so sick and mentally detrimental I just don't know what's expected of me as a believer. I had a day or two where I began to write out an apology but had to stop since it was so ludicrous that I was apologizing for being mad and wanting an explanation for why I had been mistreated and lied to for a very, very long time. The grace ran out mid-apology. I kind of feel like an apology here is actually an enabling of the poor behavior, but if I don't I'm afraid the Lord will consider me to not have done everything possible.

[Nell]

Flyonthewall,

When you say “I didn’t know Christians could be like this”...now you know. Ask yourself “Is this the work of the Holy Spirit?” Remember the verse “Satan has desired you that he may sift you like wheat.”

When I had experiences that taught me to ask the questions I conveyed to you, I received a clear word from the Lord that such a person could not hear any response that I may have, and whatever response I gave was used against me...as you have described. From that time forward, I stopped trying to communicate with the offender/s and began to pray “Lord, don’t let me be deceived.” Regardless of the behavior of others, I don’t want to excuse myself from any wrongdoing on my part. I just can’t continue in this ordeal.

We are first reconciled to God and forgiven by Him. When you have made attempts to reconcile with man to the best of your ability, you have gone the distance. You can’t control the response of others. You can only respond scripturally for yourself. Consider that, under the circumstances you face, your responsibility toward reconciliation may be over. It may be time for you to walk away. Pray for clarity on your next step. “We wrestle not against flesh and blood...”. Spiritual warfare is real...now you know.

Blessings to you,
Nell

[HERn]

Originally Posted by flyonthewall

Your link to gaslighting almost perfectly describes my exact situation. My jaw dropped. Thank you Nell and Ohio for going down that pathway in your response. This has seriously helped me.

I excommunicated the so-called LC elders from my family by way of email. I then found a genuine local church where the elders were shepherds and not promoters of a man's ministry and his publishing house.