God-men or Con-men in the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not. I have never liked hearing the word con-man used to describe our leaders but I now have to admit that the distinction is fitting after all that has been uncovered. S. I.


www.twoturmoils.com/GodmenORConmen.pdf

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate
www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not.

• Hide sins
• Support lies
• Deceive saints by controlling information

“Moreover, among the prophets of Samaria I saw an offensive thing:
They prophesied by Baal and led My people Israel astray.
“Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing:
The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood;
And they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one has turned back from his wickedness.
All of them have become to Me like Sodom,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah. Jeremiah 23:13-14

[NewManLiving]

Banner High Peak Book 1994
Wherever there is division, there is spiritual fornication, idolatry, self-, and self- exaltation. Without self-exaltation, there could be no division. Living the life of a God-man saves us from all these negative things. To live such a life is to live Christ (Phil. 1:21), the very model of the God-man life.

Most, if not all of the division in the LC has been and continues to be caused by a conscious and deliberate violation of the message given in this book. The author himself being the first violator, followed by his self-appointed successors who continue this sinful practice. To talk about being a God Man is easy, to be one is not so easy. The overwhelming evidence speaks for itself: These brothers are more like con-men than God-men!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not. I have never liked hearing the word con-man used to describe our leaders but I now have to admit that the distinction is fitting after all that has been uncovered. S. I.


www.twoturmoils.com/GodmenORConmen.pdf

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate
www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

Something that has been frequently discussed, and something that I am inclined to agree with is that WL's latter ministry (aka "high peak") was a guise for the questionable activities that had occurred prior.

Terminology like "God-men" is just an attempt to quietly uplift those who would have otherwise questionable character.

Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

AND, deception has run rampant over the years, being cap stoned in a 2014 book by the blending brothers - who underscore, rather than uncover, the falsehoods they helped create and shamelessly perpetuate.

Dear brother Philip Lin,

Thank you for pointing out in your book the commendable aspects you observed in the life of Witness Lee that you attest to as one who was close to him for many years. Although I was not close to him, I benefited greatly from him and his ministry, as you shared about in your experience: “Witness Lee helped me to enjoy Christ as my life and as my life supply, which enabled me to live a normal Christian life. Through his ministry I also saw the divine economy of God, and his ministry supplies Christ’s grace in faith and love for me to persevere in my walk unto Christ’s return.” Many have a similar testimony, Philip.

But, as you know, many also have a testimony of a different kind that warrants much attention which you did not detail in your book; the truth shows there is a painful contrast between the Witness Lee you depict and the one you do not. You certainly hinted that brother Lee had weaknesses and you made use of the oft-used clause for covering him up saying that “he was not perfect, no one is perfect”, but you concealed any detail, only stating that he wasn’t meant to be in business. There was no detail on this and any other lamentable aspect that damaged his testimony and the churches. Consequently, you are not as Paul, the apostle who could say, “we have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty”; but instead in a crafty way you dance around the truth and keep hidden things hidden that should be renounced.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again.

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate

www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

[HERn]

I believe all the being blended brothers an elders would agree that they are outside of Christianity. I think there are 8 million JWs and 14 million Mormons in the world who most Protestants would also are outside of Christianity. There may be a few perfectly good teachings in both of those groups, as there may be in the Lord's Recovery, but why would anyone want to go to these groups for any teaching. Oh, that's right all of them have special men that saw things that evaded Paul, John, Peter, and even the Christ of God never saw. There is no MOTA, there is only the Christ, His apostles, and faithful elders, pastors, and deacons who gave their lives for the church. Many of the earliest church fathers were martyred or died destitute. WL died relatively rich as the head of a small religious organization and publishing house. I'll honor God, His Christ, and the faithful saints who gave their lives. I will not honor a man that deceived the saints to contribute to a RV manufacturing scheme that apparently made his reprobate son rich.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Banner High Peak Book 1994
Wherever there is division, there is spiritual fornication, idolatry, self-, and self- exaltation. Without self-exaltation, there could be no division. Living the life of a God-man saves us from all these negative things. To live such a life is to live Christ (Phil. 1:21), the very model of the God-man life.

Most, if not all of the division in the LC has been and continues to be caused by a conscious and deliberate violation of the message given in this book. The author himself being the first violator, followed by his self-appointed successors who continue this sinful practice. To talk about being a God Man is easy, to be one is not so easy. The overwhelming evidence speaks for itself: These brothers are more like con-men than God-men!

Paul Kerr shares in an email:
"The introduction of truth into any situation is like a spot light and forces those involved to either submit to it or not. In the Lord's work when we find ourselves weaseling around the truth for personal loyalties, financial considerations, politics, etc. we have already compromised ourselves.

"Along this line, I recall a leaders meeting before a Sunday morning meeting in Anaheim during the late eighties turmoil. A few of us younger brothers who were learning to serve in the church, were helping the elders who were there and had been involved in such meetings for quite some time. I had asked the question: "Why should we let two brothers [Brother Lee & his son], who don't even come to the meetings, wreak havoc on a church of over 500 people? Let's just ignore them and go on." Just after I asked it, Philip Lin walked in late. He asked, "What did Paul ask?" Godfred replied, "It was a very good question, Paul go ahead and ask it again?" So I did, and this was Philip Lin’s almost verbatim response:

"I know in my conscience you brothers are right according to the truth, but in my culture I must be loyal to Witness Lee."

"Of course he was not just referring to my question but to the overall situation, the sixteen points the faithful elders had previously ministered, and more. Frankly, I appreciated and admired his honesty. It was so striking I still clearly remember it today. He was one of the few who openly admitted that his loyalty was personalized."

Philip, here, in this setting with “dissenting brothers”, as you disparagingly refer to them, you could be honest. But you have not walked in that honesty as your book reveals, which apparently was only reviewed by other Chinese, loyal to their culture also and to brother Lee; not to the truth or to the Lord who crucified their culture on the cross.

[Freedom]

Philip Lin says of Lee “he was not perfect, no one is perfect.” I consider statements like these to be a ploy. Because Lee was presumed to be a pristine leader, the commonly held view within the LC is somewhere along those lines, or at least there has been a refusal to admit that he had any imperfections ("even when he's wrong, he's right").

Because so much information regarding the true Lee has been made available on the internet, leaders would look foolish if they were to completely deny that Lee had faults. They have to put a spin on things from a different angle. So what does Lin do? He make a quick admission to that fact without delving into the details. His statement is as generic as they come and in essence he has said nothing at all.

I have read Lin's book and I can say from reading it, he knew very well that his intended audience might include people such as those on this forum. He mentions questionable periods in LC history that many members would know nothing about, yet he doesn't fully address these things. He mentions it as if these things have long since come and gone and were resolved long ago. It's a ploy to get people to let their guard down who might otherwise be suspicious of things.

The problem with running a con for so long is that after more and more have been scammed, there will be more and more vocal detractors. If leaders truly believe that they are not con-men, then now is the time for them to come forward and address long overdue concerns. Sweeping things under the rug will only make matters worse.

[Ohio]

Philip Lin says of Lee “he was not perfect, no one is perfect.” I consider statements like these to be a ploy. Because Lee was presumed to be a pristine leader, the commonly held view within the LC is somewhere along those lines, or at least there has been a refusal to admit that he had any imperfections ("even when he's wrong, he's right").

Because so much information regarding the true Lee has been made available on the internet, leaders would look foolish if they were to completely deny that Lee had faults. They have to put a spin on things from a different angle. So what does Lin do? He make a quick admission to that fact without delving into the details. His statement is as generic as they come and in essence he has said nothing at all.

It was not until I read Ingalls' account in STTIL in 2005 that my blinders began to be removed. Before then, I totally viewed Nee and Lee as the "purest" life forms known to man, having spent their entire lives being wrongly accused and persecuted by all those around them. In my mind, they were like Joseph, David chased by Saul, and Jesus Himself, hated without a cause, and suffering every atrocity for God, for the truth, for the gospel, and for righteousness.

Even though the internet had been around for some time, it was not until the pending GLA quarantines that I and others began searching for answers. The Berean and LCD forums then became a clearinghouse for the actual factual history of the LCM and LSM. Former members, many of whom I had known and respected, began to write their stories, and the Nee/Lee facade of godly "purity" vaporized like the morning fog.

Saying things like "everyone makes mistakes" and "no one is perfect" merely creates a ruse to keep members from looking further. It is strictly deception to categorize Lee and Sons' checkered history as "mistakes" or such. This explains why active and positive members, such as myself, would get instantly "poisoned" upon learning the truth of past "storms." Not only was our sordid past covered over and "sanitized" with the halo of persecution, but the record was whitewashed with alternative and supposedly "believable" versions of history, e.g. "global conspiracies concocted overnight by ambitious men to destroy God's testimony."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Saying things like "everyone makes mistakes" and "no one is perfect" merely creates a ruse to keep members from looking further. It is strictly deception to categorize Lee and Sons' checkered history as "mistakes" or such. This explains why active and positive members, such as myself, would get instantly "poisoned" upon learning the truth of past "storms." Not only was our sordid past covered over and "sanitized" with the halo of persecution, but the record was whitewashed with alternative and supposedly "believable" versions of history, e.g. "global conspiracies concocted overnight by ambitious men to destroy God's testimony."

Over the years, there were several times where I made a passing reference to a concern that I had. The typical response was along the lines of "well, the brothers aren't perfect you know." It's as if that was the one size fits all excuse for questionable behavior or practices.

At a very basic level, it's insulting that merely expressing a concern would be immediately equated with us expecting leaders to be perfect. LC leaders like to characterize us as purposely trying to nitpick at WL or as trying to expose his faults. That's a complete mis-characterization of the issue. It's understandable why they do avoid talking about imperfections. Is not that imperfections would normally be a big deal, but because of the amount of things that have been swept under the rug, addressing even simple concerns could quickly lead to discussion of problems that are fundamental to the LC.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Over the years, there were several times where I made a passing reference to a concern that I had. The typical response was along the lines of "well, the brothers aren't perfect you know." It's as if that was the one size fits all excuse for questionable behavior or practices.

The brothers aren't perfect is a default answer for any questioning of personal behavior, ethical behavior, or party to any decision making that could warrant civil or criminal litigation. (That includes obstruction of justice.) The bottom line is ANY AND ALL scrutiny is equal to nitpicking.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

The brothers aren't perfect is a default answer for any questioning of personal behavior, ethical behavior, or party to any decision making that could warrant civil or criminal litigation. (That includes obstruction of justice.) The bottom line is ANY AND ALL scrutiny is equal to nitpicking.

Then why does Lee et. al. get a free pass to recklessly and indiscriminately condemn the rest of the body of Christ as hopeless and helpless, "poor, poor ... " Don't they know that "nobody is perfect," and "we all make mistakes."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then why does Lee et. al. get a free pass to recklessly and indiscriminately condemn the rest of the body of Christ as hopeless and helpless, "poor, poor ... " Don't they know that "nobody is perfect," and "we all make mistakes."

It is inconsistencies like these that prompted me to start that double standards thread awhile back. I suppose those in the LC are reluctantly willing to acknowlege their own imperfections, but I think that because they feel themselves to be the pinnacle of the past 2000 years, that the imperfections don't matter.

LC members are obsessed with criticizing others, because a supposed ill state of all other Christians is what is taken to define the notion of 'recovery'. Because they believe themselves to be so much better, it's easy for them to dismiss the "bones and feathers" as being mere "growing pains." After all, thats what Lee did.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then why does Lee et. al. get a free pass to recklessly and indiscriminately condemn the rest of the body of Christ as hopeless and helpless, "poor, poor ... " Don't they know that "nobody is perfect," and "we all make mistakes."

The hypocrisy is strong. Watching Lee continually beg our indulgence in what he referred to as the "messy kitchen" of LC life, while obsessively nit-picking all ills, both real and imagined, of "Christianity", reminds one of the man Jesus told us about in Matthew 18:21-35. The man demanded forgiveness, but refused to give it.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by aron

The hypocrisy is strong. Watching Lee continually beg our indulgence in what he referred to as the "messy kitchen" of LC life, while obsessively nit-picking all ills, both real and imagined, of "Christianity", reminds one of the man Jesus told us about in Matthew 18:21-35. The man demanded forgiveness, but refused to give it.

Andrew Yu covering of Witness Lee
“There has never been a case, either in the Scriptures or in church history, where a servant of God has been found to be perfect. A perfect person does not exist. None of us can claim to be perfect.” (p. 5 An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ)

Witness Lee covering of Philip Lee
John Ingalls reports, “after the board meeting was adjourned, Sister Lee and Philip Lee left the room, and Brother Lee continued to talk at length with Francis Ball and myself about the current situation. I just listened, saying very little. He said how much he and Philip Lee and their families had suffered through all the talk about them. He then stated, “Philip, of course, is not perfect; nobody is perfect!” It shocked me that he would make such an inappropriate statement as that after all that had been said and done.

John Ingalls on Philip Lee - Philip Lee’s name is mentioned 51 times with grave concern about him revealed throughout John Ingalls’ book, Speaking the Truth in Love, related to events and concerns of the late eighties turmoil.

Bill Mallon on Philip Lee – 50 times in an 8-page letter to Witness Lee, Philip or the office is referred to with great consternation over interferences from Philip, Benson, and Ray Graver in the Southeastern churches.

John So on Philip Lee – 49 times in his address in Manila, John So referred to Philip Lee or the office, as the source of major grief and despair for the brothers in Europe.

The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion on Witness Lee - Not a contrary word said about him.

The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion on Philip Lee - No mention of his name in the book. He is referred to as “the office” or “the Living Stream manager”, and only in a positive sense, as if he was a non-factor in the late 80s turmoil, and not a major cause of it and division, as he surely was.

Yet, voices of truth do speak. John So sums up the difficulties of conscience in dealing with the problem of Brother Lee and his son during their tandem leadership reign in the churches.

http://www.unfaithfulwitness.org/Eur...Depart1989.pdf

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Andrew Yu covering of Witness Lee
“There has never been a case, either in the Scriptures or in church history, where a servant of God has been found to be perfect. A perfect person does not exist. None of us can claim to be perfect.” (p. 5 An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ)

Witness Lee covering of Philip Lee
John Ingalls reports, “after the board meeting was adjourned, Sister Lee and Philip Lee left the room, and Brother Lee continued to talk at length with Francis Ball and myself about the current situation. I just listened, saying very little. He said how much he and Philip Lee and their families had suffered through all the talk about them. He then stated, “Philip, of course, is not perfect; nobody is perfect!” It shocked me that he would make such an inappropriate statement as that after all that had been said and done.

John Ingalls on Philip Lee - Philip Lee’s name is mentioned 51 times with grave concern about him revealed throughout John Ingalls’ book, Speaking the Truth in Love, related to events and concerns of the late eighties turmoil.

Bill Mallon on Philip Lee – 50 times in an 8-page letter to Witness Lee, Philip or the office is referred to with great consternation over interferences from Philip, Benson, and Ray Graver in the Southeastern churches.

John So on Philip Lee – 49 times in his address in Manila, John So referred to Philip Lee or the office, as the source of major grief and despair for the brothers in Europe.

The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion on Witness Lee - Not a contrary word said about him.

The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion on Philip Lee - No mention of his name in the book. He is referred to as “the office” or “the Living Stream manager”, and only in a positive sense, as if he was a non-factor in the late 80s turmoil, and not a major cause of it and division, as he surely was.

Yet, voices of truth do speak. John So sums up the difficulties of conscience in dealing with the problem of Brother Lee and his son during their tandem leadership reign in the churches.

http://www.unfaithfulwitness.org/Eur...Depart1989.pdf

The European brothers had some 'nads! The movement of WL as propagated by the being-blended-brothers is a sect barely connected to Christ. There is no Christ outside that revealed by the sect of WL. They are so narrow that I doubt WN would claim them today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Witness Lee covering of Philip Lee
John Ingalls reports, “after the board meeting was adjourned, Sister Lee and Philip Lee left the room, and Brother Lee continued to talk at length with Francis Ball and myself about the current situation. I just listened, saying very little. He said how much he and Philip Lee and their families had suffered through all the talk about them. He then stated, “Philip, of course, is not perfect; nobody is perfect!” It shocked me that he would make such an inappropriate statement as that after all that had been said and done.

It troubles me to no end that Witness Lee, a seasoned minister of the scriptures, could behave this way. First of all, how could his wife and reprobate son sit on the ministry board? Talk about unbridled cronyism! All N.T. leaders were "well attested" by the saints and approved by the Holy Spirit (Acts 6.3; 20.28; I Cor 12.28, 2 Cor 10.18; I Tim 3.7)

When reports and letters from around the globe, all from trusted and accomplished leaders, poured onto Lee's lap concerning his and his son Philip's abusive ways, Witness Lee has the audacity to inform John Ingalls in private how Philip's family has also suffered through these trying times. Is he delusional?

And then the clincher, as if to white-wash years of depravity in his own son -- so aptly described in detail by Paul in his final days on earth ...

But understand this, that in the last days perilous times will come. For some will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient, ungrateful, wicked, heartless, uncooperative, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Paul told Timothy: Avoid such people!

So what did Witness Lee do? Excused all of this, by saying, "Philip, of course, is not perfect."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then why does Lee et. al. get a free pass to recklessly and indiscriminately condemn the rest of the body of Christ as hopeless and helpless, "poor, poor ... " Don't they know that "nobody is perfect," and "we all make mistakes."

Whatever happened to the hundreds or thousands if not millions intended for the Linko project?.....Nobody's perfect....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Whatever happened to the hundreds or thousands if not millions intended for the Linko project?.....Nobody's perfect....

Whatever happened to all those lovely sisters molested by Philip .... Nobody's perfect....

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It troubles me to no end that Witness Lee, a seasoned minister of the scriptures, could behave this way. First of all, how could his wife and reprobate son sit on the ministry board? Talk about unbridled cronyism! All N.T. leaders were "well attested" by the saints and approved by the Holy Spirit (Acts 6.3; 20.28; I Cor 12.28, 2 Cor 10.18; I Tim 3.7)

When reports and letters from around the globe, all from trusted and accomplished leaders, poured onto Lee's lap concerning his and his son Philip's abusive ways, Witness Lee has the audacity to inform John Ingalls in private how Philip's family has also suffered through these trying times. Is he delusional?

And then the clincher, as if to white-wash years of depravity in his own son -- so aptly described in detail by Paul in his final days on earth ...

Paul told Timothy: Avoid such people!

So what did Witness Lee do? Excused all of this, by saying, "Philip, of course, is not perfect."

These tactics that were employed by WL are none other than psychological manipulation. When someone brings a concern of theirs to attention only to be met with a comment like "Joe Schmoe isn't perfect," it is none other than a red herring meant to conveniently put a stop to the conversation. In a normal conversation, how are you supposed to respond to that? I have yet to find a way that doesn't involve amping up the conversation. Of course, maybe doing just that is necessary at times, but it usually makes the person holding concerns look like the bad guy.

It is abundantly clear to me that even from the beginning, WL only chose to hear out those like John Ingalls in hopes that they would express their concerns and then that would be the end of it. John spoke to this very fact, he knew exactly how Lee intended to 'deal' with any concerns:
We had already met with Brother Lee a good number of times, opening to him and expressing our concerns to him, and made very little progress. Moreover, we feared, from past experience, that if we had such a meeting Brother Lee would dominate it, overwhelm us, and eventually whitewash the issues.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

whitewash the issues

Whitewash the issues....a trait the blendeds adeptly learned from Witness Lee.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness." Matthew 23:27

"“So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord God. It is definitely because they have misled My people by saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash; so tell those who plaster it over with whitewash, that it will fall. A flooding rain will come, and you, O hailstones, will fall; and a violent wind will break out." Ezekiel 13:9-11

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

...Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

Sacrifice and Sail On
Responding to Philip Lin's book

"...Witness Lee said in 1988 he pondered seriously the concerns of several brothers who had been in contact with him, and he checked with the Lord earnestly to see if he was making any mistakes in his ministry. He concluded that he was all right before the Lord and that he should just “sail on”, and issued the command to the churches to do likewise. Philip, your book shows that you have followed that command. To sail on you had to sacrifice. You sacrificed firstly your conscience, and therefore the truth; having done that, it became easy for you to sacrifice your brothers, as brother Lee did, and became the example.

"This is the keystone of your book to me that you have done this again and merely repeat the same mistakes made by leaders before you. You have truly sacrificed and are still sailing on. Instead of manifesting the truth this time by renouncing the hidden things of shame, you glorify someone; and speak falsehoods about others, brothers who you know were right according to your conscience and who stood against the hidden things brought to your attention then, and now.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again [

***

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul told Timothy: Avoid such people!

So what did Witness Lee do? Excused all of this, by saying, "Philip, of course, is not perfect."

In Witness Lee's hands, "abusive, disobedient, boasters" became "nobody's perfect." Rebranding par excellence, which of course is part of the marketing scheme, for those who merchandise the gospel. And while I see no evidence that Witness Lee enriched himself at the saints' expense, the same can't be said for his immediate family, who evidently got free rein at the till, and even at the saints themselves.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great point!

Look at the results:

Proud leader becomes like megalomaniac, accountable to no one.

I'd argue that there are two big themes behind the megalomania of Lee, which allowed it to flourish and grow in the "recovery" and the "local churches".

The first theme is the social setting of the initiation of Lee setting up shop in the USA, circa 1964-69. And I'll pose it by asking a question: what prompted some 900,000 young people to convene on a farm in upstate New York in the summer of '69? Clever marketing? Superior organization?

No, I'd say that they all went because that was where everyone was going. As soon as the word hit the street that 'everyone' was going to Max Yasgur's farm, they all hopped in their Impalas, Mustangs and Darts and headed East.

Here's a testimony of what it was like to be a young person in the '60s, getting sucked into Lee's maelstrom:

Originally Posted by Arthur M. Casci

Zealous and Misled: I Once Lost My Way

Our Lord Jesus said, "If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." This verse still rings in my mind when I think of my experience more than 10 years ago.

It all began when a friend shared the Gospel with me. Though raised in a church-going family, I had rejected Christianity at age 18. When Jeff told me about the forgiveness of sins, I said, "Flake off." But a few weeks later I attended a Bible study and the Holy Spirit put faith into my heart. I repented and believed the Gospel; after 21 years of living, my new life began.

The "Jesus People" movement was at its peak, and I enjoyed the informal atmosphere of sitting on the floor, singing, and studying the Bible. I attended different churches but felt that they were dead and had abandoned Jesus. Like many my age, I was rebellious and distrusted any organization run by comfortable, middle-class adults. Zealous for Jesus, I could not understand why others were not as enthusiastic. This attitude, combined with my lack of a Biblical foundation, left me wide open to false doctrine.*

One evening I stopped to visit a Christian friend who had some unusual visitors. They were young, "on fire," roving evangelists from an organization called "The Children of God." They did not believe that a Christian should hold a normal job, but rather should leave job, home, family, and goods to preach on the streets.

The next thing I knew, I had quit my job and prepared to leave with these young street preachers for Dallas, Tex., one of their outposts. Fortunately, some dear Christian friends I visited stopped me from going, thus preventing me from joining a cult (at least for the moment). But I was still plagued with a burning desire to serve Jesus wholeheartedly-and now I had no job.

Another friend, Randy, invited me to go with him to Akron, Ohio, to introduce me to another zealous organization. So, once again, I packed my few belongings and left. This time no one stopped me.

I will never forget my first encounter with this organization. In a meeting, they sang loudly, shouted out verses of Scripture, danced, and one by one gave strong testimony about what Jesus meant to them. I saw young and old, black, white, and Oriental people.

I immediately joined in the singing and shouting. Mentally I maintained a few reservations, but emotionally I was caught. The love, unity and volume of the service overwhelmed me. I thought to myself: Here are people who truly love Jesus and are not afraid to show it.

That night after the meeting, Randy introduced me to many of them. They immediately welcomed me and showed great concern. I asked to stay for a week or two as a trial period, and was housed in a large duplex with about 10 members, who said I could stay until I decided whether to join the group.

Nobody forced me to join. Nobody needed to. I was ripe for the picking.

The organization is known as the "Local Church." lf such a group were in St. Louis, they would call themselves "The Church in or of St. Louis." They take the name of their locality.

So Lee, after soiling his nest in China, Taiwan, and the Philippines, found "virgin soil" in the USA in which to ply his wares. And they came in by the busload. So surely his ministry was responsible for the increase, right? Right?

The '60s was a time when they would all pile into whatever was "happening", without regard to the sense of it. If everyone else was doing it, okay fine, let's go! Eventually this thinking changed, in the '70s, when things like Jim Jones and his People's Temple occurred.

Joe: "Hey Bob, what possessed you to go into the jungle and drink poisoned Kool-Aid?"

Bob: "I dunno, seemed like a good idea a the time. Everyone else [900+] was doing it, so I figured, what the heck? Why not?"

But at its heyday, something like the "Elden Hall experience" was able to occur with little help from Lee. He was just this weird, inscrutable Chinese guy, but hey, he was Watchman Nee's closest co-worker! Let's all just love Jesus!

The second thing feeding Lee's megalomania was oriental culture. The (oriental) collective needed a strong center. Lee figured, if not me, then someone else has to do it. In this he was a pea in Watchman Nee's pod. Absolute and unquestioned authority was the conceptual center, the actual and ultimate "ground", of Nee's "Normal Church" model. Not coincidentally, Nee didn't articulate this principle until he was free of both the Western church, and all "senior co-workers" by his "local ground" discovery. Ultimately, the "local ground" was merely a preface for the "deputy God" thesis, which Nee used well, and which allowed Lee an open door to his own fiefdom, and then followers of Lee such as Benson Philips, Ray Graver, Mel Porter and Titus Chu. Anyone with ambition in the LC found out, just publicly grovel before the Ascended Master and you'll be given your own little satrapy. I saw Chu do this before Lee in the big meetings: "Lose Face" and the kingdom is yours. And from what I hear, Dong also followed suit in Brasil: he got to examine, expose, and "prove" everything, but his own business arrangements (for example, his son getting exclusive operational rights in Estancia Arvore outside of Campinas, Sumare) were a "black box" per his deputies. Because Dong, like Lee his mentor, always has to be right. Social coherence (i.e. good order in the Lee/Chu/Dong church) demands it. Don't question the Master.

Now, by contrast we can look at Stephen Kaung, another Nee peer who evidently didn't have a pathological need to dominate the assembly thus. Probably cultural reticence forbade Kaung from ever publicly critiquing the Nee model, but obviously his leadership style seems in contrast with those found in the Little Flock & Lord's Recovery.

Another contrast is provided by Leland Wang, one of Nee's initial co-workers and who started the independent (local) Shanghai Assembly group, before Nee pushed him out. Wang showed no evidence of "lording over the saints", that I can see. So this is not necessarily a Chinese/Asian trait, but oriental culture clearly filtered through what I saw in LC life: "Witness Lee is always right" and "cover the drunken Noah" and "questioning leadership is akin to rebellion, the most heinous of spiritual crimes" and so forth. To me that's human cultural imperatives dominating scriptural exegesis, and thereby also opening the way for complete control of the assembly bought by Christ's own blood.

(*This was also the assessment of recent LSM apologists CRI, regarding the Mainland Chinese Christians, characterizing them as "zealous" and "ignorant" - what a great combination, eh? Along with their innate, conditioned deference to strong centralized authority, it made them ripe for machinations by the supposed 'ministry of the age'.)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Sacrifice and Sail On
Responding to Philip Lin's book

"...Witness Lee said in 1988 he pondered seriously the concerns of several brothers who had been in contact with him, and he checked with the Lord earnestly to see if he was making any mistakes in his ministry. He concluded that he was all right before the Lord and that he should just “sail on”, and issued the command to the churches to do likewise. Philip, your book shows that you have followed that command. To sail on you had to sacrifice. You sacrificed firstly your conscience, and therefore the truth; having done that, it became easy for you to sacrifice your brothers, as brother Lee did, and became the example.

"This is the keystone of your book to me that you have done this again and merely repeat the same mistakes made by leaders before you. You have truly sacrificed and are still sailing on. Instead of manifesting the truth this time by renouncing the hidden things of shame, you glorify someone; and speak falsehoods about others, brothers who you know were right according to your conscience and who stood against the hidden things brought to your attention then, and now.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again [

***

What would Philip Lin say in response to what he said to Paul Kerr in the late 80's?
In respect to Witness Lee, I would never say he was a "God-man". In respect to his spoken ministry, it was not a con. In respect to his business dealings of Daystar, LSM, Linko, etc it was definitely a con. Why focus primarily on Chinese speaking saints?

• Generally more capital than English speaking saints
• Chinese saints are more easily manipulated than English speaking saints

Why would English speaking co-workers continue speaking the praises of Witness Lee?

• They're paid employees of LSM
• They're fiancially supported by the localities they "claim" to serve.
• Respect and pride

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read Lin's book and I can say from reading it, he knew very well that his intended audience might include people such as those on this forum. He mentions questionable periods in LC history that many members would know nothing about, yet he doesn't fully address these things. He mentions it as if these things have long since come and gone and were resolved long ago. It's a ploy to get people to let their guard down who might otherwise be suspicious of things.

The problem with running a con for so long is that after more and more have been scammed, there will be more and more vocal detractors. If leaders truly believe that they are not con-men, then now is the time for them to come forward and address long overdue concerns. Sweeping things under the rug will only make matters worse.

God-man Living

Philip, you said that with the Lord Jesus, “His living and His working had no distinction” and that it was the same with the apostle Paul, “his living was his teaching; his teaching was his living” and, “with Brother Lee we can testify that his living was the best interpretation of what he taught. What he lived out and worked out was the very essence of the message he constantly delivered to the churches in the recovery”, (taken from his eulogy) You live Christ out sometimes, Philip; I live Christ out sometimes; brother Lee lived Christ sometimes. If we speak just of the sometimes, we all would be considered God-men in our living. But you added “He often said that he had been repenting for not being faithful and living Christ in his daily life.” Sometimes he lived Christ, many times he did not, like others. He also made mistakes as he at rare times admitted.

"Although I have always intended to do the right thing, I have nevertheless made many mistakes, even some big mistakes. I certainly hate these mistakes..."
(Eph. Life Study p. 273, W. L.)

Also at the onset of the new way, he shared that only the Lord Jesus was mistake-free and that “all of us” have made mistakes.

Witness Lee: "My point is this—do not think that any leader could not make a mistake. Only the Lord Jesus, the unique Leader, never made any mistake. It is absolutely impossible for Him to be mistaken. However, all of us, including Peter, have made many mistakes." (One Accord for the Lord’s Move, E. T., Book 7, p. 113)

"All responsible brothers in all localities need to learn. The eyes of the brothers and sisters all need to be opened. Too many things we need to learn.

I admit that in the past we have all made mistakes, including myself. For this I repented before the Lord in tears.

You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! To understand and analyze this needs a fair bit of effort.

We have to receive people according to the Son of God, not deviating from the path.”
(W.Lee Final message Chinese New Year Conference, Anaheim, February 1997)

***

Philip Lin’s book was designed to spruce up the image of Witness Lee and son Philip to impress especially the young people that this tandem leadership on display from 1974 to 1989 was completely beyond reproach. The Witness Lee that Philip Lin did not talk about was a controversial figure. It was quite serious with him, and the saints should know who this Witness Lee was and learn from his history also, which had cost the church dearly.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Although I have always intended to do the right thing, I have nevertheless made many mistakes, even some big mistakes. I certainly hate these mistakes..."
(Eph. Life Study p. 273, W. L.)

Also at the onset of the new way, he shared that only the Lord Jesus was mistake-free and that “all of us” have made mistakes.

Witness Lee: "My point is this—do not think that any leader could not make a mistake. Only the Lord Jesus, the unique Leader, never made any mistake. It is absolutely impossible for Him to be mistaken. However, all of us, including Peter, have made many mistakes." (One Accord for the Lord’s Move, E. T., Book 7, p. 113)

In a normal church setting, I think that most people understand that leaders can and will make mistakes. More often than not, that has already been accounted for. In the LC, however, the mistakes being made were horrendous and monumental, enough so that I think that members had already exhausted the amount of leniency they were willing to give to WL.

It's probably fair to say that many leaders were more lenient towards Lee than they should have been. For example, those who were kicked out in the 80's didn't really make a fuss about Daystar, even though they probably could have raised concerns at that point in time. Thus, WL's ministry was already living on borrowed time, and it's appalling to see that he would admit to making mistakes only in a vague way.

WL was given the benefit of the doubt much more than he ever deserved. He never was grateful about that, he just turned right around and took advantage of it.