The Experience of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Isn't that what Paul meant when he said "For me to live is Christ?" Wasn't he saying in some sense that the experience of living to him was Christ?

Of all the things you've written, this was the one that gave me most pause. I had to ask, well, isn't living an experience? And don't I want to "live Christ" as Paul put it? So don't I want to experience Christ?

I'm somewhat biased about that verse, though; I've always seen Paul as saying, "For you to live may be your job or your family or some philosophy. But to me to live is the person of Jesus Christ." Life itself, eternal, uncreated, divine, incorruptible, was presented to us in the very person of Jesus the Galilean. And Paul wanted this: nothing else. But this is a subjective statement. That is Paul's choice. Ultimately, God also will speak. "We all have to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ". Then God will either say "amen" or "nay" to Paul's declaration. Until then we take it as provisional.

Of course Paul wrote a dozen or so epistles. We take it as granted that he "experienced Christ" or "lived Christ" or "gained Christ" to some degree. But to what degree we don't know. God knows.

When Paul said, "that I may gain Christ, and be found in Him" in Philippians 3:8, I think he was likewise saying that this was his goal, his ultimate object. How much did Paul gain or experience Christ on a day-to-day basis? Who knows. So what is the "gain Christ" or "experience Christ" as some kind of divine currency of enduring value in our daily lives? Nothing.

WL turned "Christ" into an objective commodity that could be "gained" by coming to (his) meetings and saying "amen" when he spoke. By pray-reading and PSRP'ing and whatnot. There is a big, big danger of people thinking they have "gained" some commodity, stored up in heaven, and one day hearing, "I don't know you" from the Judge of all. This is serious. Our faith is in God's goodness, not our experience. I certainly hope to "gain Christ" and be found in Him. But I look away unto Him, not to my daily experiences of Him.

I know RK said once at a meeting that he had "more Christ" than before. He said that because WL said that. Ultimately he put his trust in WL. Bad move. I think that to humble ourselves is to distrust ourselves, our experiences, out thinking, our motives. Look at WL's motives. When some young gullible brother inherited money, suddenly a motor home factory was in the works. Where was that lurking, while WL was experiencing and gaining Christ?

I do have faith, and believe: the conclusive proof that I see, of Jesus being the personification of life itself, is God's proving to all that Jesus is Lord and Christ, by raising Him from the dead, and giving Him glory. I trust that. I believe in that. That, to me is irrefutable. And if I didn't have faith, why struggle forward, daily? But how much am I going forward, if at all, I don't worry about. Am I gaining Christ today? Am I experiencing Him? I just keep going on, and like Paul said, "I forget what is behind", including all my possible experiences of gaining Christ. The race is on.

To claim the experience is to obviate or annul the experience. We claim, rather, that we believe Christ is the victor. He finished the race. Now we follow Him. Couldn't He have "claimed" to be higher than the angels, while on earth? No, He humbled Himself and took the lowest position. He claimed nothing. It was the Father's testimony (resurrection, ascension, glory) which ultimately claimed Him and what He had laid hold of, here on earth. But if we, today, claim our experience as somehow objectively real and valid in its own right I think we trust ourselves too much. The scriptural record is littered with the carcasses of those who trusted in themselves too much while they were still on the way. "The people sat down to eat and drink, and got up to play."

It's like saying, "I am a five-talented saint." By saying that you probably disqualify yourself. You err, and will be unpleasantly surprised. If you say, "Well I am merely a one-talented saint" you may also err - maybe you are two talented. Who knows? Just struggle on. Evaluating yourself, or others, is a waste of time and attention. And the idea of experiencing Christ seems to me like a self-created and imposed evaluation. By the time you get done qualifying it, it has no value. And if you don't qualify it, then you risk being seriously led astray, or captivated, by your conjectures, as if they had reality of their own. And that, to me, was WL's ministry in a nutshell.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

To claim the experience is to obviate or annul the experience.

I don't think you can take it this far. Mary exclaimed "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!" She claimed the experience. I don't think her doing so annulled it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think you can take it this far. Mary exclaimed "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!" She claimed the experience. I don't think her doing so annulled it.

Someone has said that we are just a collection of memories. That is our life. Memories are recollections of our experiences. They together shape who we are.

This discussion is bewildering at best. For the life of me I just can't see the down side of desiring to experience Christ.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This discussion is bewildering at best. For the life of me I just can't see the down side of desiring to experience Christ.

I'm with you bro. I don't get it. I guess it comes down to perspective, of what "experiencing Christ" means to someone.

To me it means basking in his presence, enjoying sweet fellowship with him, with all my problems fading into the mist.

To others it must mean LeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLEELEELEELEELEELEE AAAEEEE!!!!

It depends on what comes to mind when you hear the phrase, I guess.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm with you bro. I don't get it.

No, you don't get it. One simply doesn't stop and snap selfies whilst fighting lions in snowy pits. But once you see your fruits, your beloved "experiences of Christ" all vanish in a trice like Job's children, you'll get it. I have and I get it.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

No, you don't get it. One simply doesn't stop and snap selfies whilst fighting lions in snowy pits. But once you see your fruits, your beloved "experiences of Christ" all vanish in a trice like Job's children, you'll get it. I have and I get it.

I'll call you when it happens. Until then please keep such predictions to yourself.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'll call you when it happens. Until then please keep such predictions to yourself.

Really? No failures? None by you, nor by others? I'm impressed. If you somehow have managed a Christian journey untouched by the taint of failure and loss, well, then I do recant. By all means, do carry on.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

No, you don't get it. One simply doesn't stop and snap selfies whilst fighting lions in snowy pits. But once you see your fruits, your beloved "experiences of Christ" all vanish in a trice like Job's children, you'll get it. I have and I get it.

That's what I said. I agreed with you. Read my post again.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's what I said. I agreed with you. Read my post again.

Ohio, you wrote:

Then why would anyone say to "slow down and smell the roses?" Obviously when your life is at stake, fighting off bears and lions, that is not the best time to reminisce the good times, but when it is all over, get out your selfie stick and get a pic with your latest "kill."

The battle isn't over. Congratulating yourself partway through is like a yo-yo dieter congratulating themselves every time they drop 8 pounds. The congratulatory process itself is indicative of instability, and portents the coming relapse, or failure.

Peter said that the roaring lion is walking about, seeking to devour (1 Pet 5:8). If you don't get it, then you are either in some exalted state like Igzy, untouched and untouchable, or you are oblivious.

We only can assess whether and how much we have "gained" or "experienced" once the race is over and the battle won. And that assessment is only made by God. Until then, put down the pom-poms.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm with you bro. I don't get it. I guess it comes down to perspective, of what "experiencing Christ" means to someone.

To me it means basking in his presence, enjoying sweet fellowship with him, with all my problems fading into the mist.

To others it must mean LeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLeeLEELEELEELEELEELEE AAAEEEE!!!!

It depends on what comes to mind when you hear the phrase, I guess.

I think you are talking exactly what comes to mind. Like managing to work up a brew of serotonin, dopamine, and oxytocin in your brain, bringing about a euphoric mystical oceanic experience. That is what happens in those states of mind.