Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

An interesting question to ask pastors or priests of churches is "are you the true and genuine local church in the city as per the bible". If they are, they should have no problem saying they are.

No, but what I have heard is saying they're part of the local Body of Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Terry

No, but what I have heard is saying they're part of the local Body of Christ.

My follow on question to that would be "Which part and how many parts are there?". We then get to the point of the matter which is they believe there are many churches , and not "one church" as the bible teaches. That is because they are sects (groups within a group) and not "the church", as Christ said he will build "my church" (not churches).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My follow on question to that would be "Which part and how many parts are there?". We then get to the point of the matter which is they believe there are many churches , and not "one church" as the bible teaches. That is because they are sects (groups within a group) and not "the church", as Christ said he will build "my church" (not churches).

You would that all the body be a head. Or a hand. Or a foot.

We are the body, and members in particular.

But you would prefer to marginalize all who are not you. Make them of no importance. Cut of a toe. Or a finger. Or even an ear.

Maim the body for the sake of unity.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

You would that all the body be a head. Or a hand. Or a foot.

We are the body, and members in particular.

But you would prefer to marginalize all who are not you. Make them of no importance. Cut of a toe. Or a finger. Or even an ear.

Maim the body for the sake of unity.

I do not see anything in Scripture which indicates that a group of Christians i.e. a denomination is a "hand" or a "foot". A view which says this denomination over here is a foot and this one over here is a hand is incorrect.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I do not see anything in Scripture which indicates that a group of Christians i.e. a denomination is a "hand" or a "foot". A view which says this denomination over here is a foot and this one over here is a hand is incorrect.

You are straining at the analogy while missing the point. Paul used the analogy of a body with constituent parts (hand, foot, head, eyes, etc.) to demonstrate that we need each other. When you argue that it does not apply to groups of Christians relative to other groups of Christians is to insist that it may not be OK to belittle or dismiss a single member, but doing it wholesale to an entire group is OK.

So cutting of a single member is a travesty that Paul spoke against, but if you can do it on a grand scale, like spiritual genocide, it is entirely OK. Arguing that the hand/foot/finger/head analogy does not properly fit is far from Carte Blanche to engage in such genocide. I was hoping that you had better reasoning skills than a 7th grader that might not even be able to grasp the idea as a person as being represented by a foot. Instead, you are unable to take an example that we understand and broaden it, even if it does not seem to fit because of the nature of the words.

You seem OK with the idea that the one body might have multiple feet, hands, etc. Even many more than the typical number in a real body. You don't have fits over the idea that an assembly might have 50 people that could all be referenced as hands. Yet you get your mind blown at the slightly errant use of the analogy when applied on a grander scale because it implied that a particular assembly might just be feet, or one foot. Pull your head out! Accept the limitations of the analogy and work with it. So an assembly is not simply a foot. But it is a collection of hands, feet, eyes, ears, and on and on, that is part of the body of Christ.

And you are willing to just throw them all into the trash because they do not follow your formula for naming churches. Or eating/not eating meat offered to idols. Or allowing a woman to speak in a church.

In other words, you are looking for reasons to invalidate Christians. Lots of them. In fact, most of them. They don't follow the teachings of your taste, which come from a very singular and certain teacher. His name adorns your bookshelves. Yet you think that you do not violate Paul's admonition of being too much for one teacher. (One which does not invalidate you or your group, but points to an error that needs correction.)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

You are straining at the analogy while missing the point. Paul used the analogy of a body with constituent parts (hand, foot, head, eyes, etc.) to demonstrate that we need each other. When you argue that it does not apply to groups of Christians relative to other groups of Christians is to insist that it may not be OK to belittle or dismiss a single member, but doing it wholesale to an entire group is OK.

I agree that Christians need each other. So why the divisions/denominations? That is a much stronger argument for my view than yours.

Originally Posted by OBW

So cutting of a single member is a travesty that Paul spoke against, but if you can do it on a grand scale, like spiritual genocide, it is entirely OK. Arguing that the hand/foot/finger/head analogy does not properly fit is far from Carte Blanche to engage in such genocide. I was hoping that you had better reasoning skills than a 7th grader that might not even be able to grasp the idea as a person as being represented by a foot. Instead, you are unable to take an example that we understand and broaden it, even if it does not seem to fit because of the nature of the words.

You seem OK with the idea that the one body might have multiple feet, hands, etc. Even many more than the typical number in a real body. You don't have fits over the idea that an assembly might have 50 people that could all be referenced as hands. Yet you get your mind blown at the slightly errant use of the analogy when applied on a grander scale because it implied that a particular assembly might just be feet, or one foot. Pull your head out! Accept the limitations of the analogy and work with it. So an assembly is not simply a foot. But it is a collection of hands, feet, eyes, ears, and on and on, that is part of the body of Christ.

I am sure that Paul was not thinking about denominations when he wrote about the different parts of the body. Your fault, for misapplying the verse out of context.

I can easily show that my view is logical and yours is not.

Imagine there is a city with 1000 Christians. We believe it is one church with 1000 Christians. That number can grow as more people are converted.

With your view, suppose there are 10 denominations and exactly 100 people in each denomination. You would say there are 10 churches in the city. Assume the number of denominations grows, up to 20 denominations, but the number of Christians remains the same at 1000. There are now 20 churches with 50 in each church.

Take it to the limit - it is possible to have 1000 churches with 1 person in each church. That 1 person in each church is likely to be the pastor of each church, waiting for his church to grow in numbers so he can preach to some congregation and a conduct a church service. It might seem an unlikely, even silly, suggesting to contemplate - but the fact is that your definition of church allows for such a possibility, and mine does not. Therefore my definition is superior and yours is logically flawed.

Which of these two views are better representing the body of Christ that Paul talked about? Is it 1000 churches with 1 person in each church? Or is it 1 church of 1000.

Your view cannot handle the extreme cases - unlikely to happen, but possible.

Your view must also, by default, accept the LGBT churches, for example, as being a different "part of the body".

Originally Posted by OBW

In other words, you are looking for reasons to invalidate Christians. Lots of them. In fact, most of them. They don't follow the teachings of your taste, which come from a very singular and certain teacher. His name adorns your bookshelves. Yet you think that you do not violate Paul's admonition of being too much for one teacher. (One which does not invalidate you or your group, but points to an error that needs correction.)

As Drake alluded to, the denominations themselves, even their very existence, divides them. They invalidate themselves, when they stray from the New Testament way.

I can ask you a simple question which I know you cannot answer - give us one good bible verse that gives a biblical reason why the Baptist and Presbyterian churches should not be one church. Is the Bible their basis for division or is it something else?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As Drake alluded to, the denominations themselves, even their very existence, divides them. They invalidate themselves, when they stray from the New Testament way.

I can ask you a simple question which I know you cannot answer - give us one good bible verse that gives a biblical reason why the Baptist and Presbyterian churches should not be one church. Is the Bible their basis for division or is it something else?

Let me ask you a simple question which I know you cannot answer -- why are there now numerous cities with multiple LC's? Many cities now have two, three, and even four churches all claiming to be the true LC, standing on the ground of oneness, and having nearly identical teachings and history, yet have no fellowship with one another. The Baptist and Presbyterian churches in the same city have far less animus, and far more fellowship, than any of these LC's, yet you readily condemn them, when they should be condemning you, but they don't.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that Christians need each other. So why the divisions/denominations? That is a much stronger argument for my view than yours.

I am sure that Paul was not thinking about denominations when he wrote about the different parts of the body. Your fault, for misapplying the verse out of context.

I can easily show that my view is logical and yours is not.

Imagine there is a city with 1000 Christians. . . .

And we will stop there because the example is just too ridiculous to be worthy of supporting a doctrinal error.

Why the divisions? Because we don't agree on everything. Just like you don't. You are deluded into thinking that naming yourself on a magical formula gives you the standing to dismiss everyone else while deriding anyone else that might do the same thing to you or any other. There is no passage, paragraph or even verse (other than taken out of context) that grants special privilege to certain Christians because they got the name right or presume a certain boundary for the inclusion of Christians in their assembly.

As for your example of a city with 1,000 Christians . . . .

The first problem is that there is no church of 1. But even shrinking it in such a manner to 5 is to use a fantasy as your basis for truth.

The second problem is that an example of this kind is does not address the causes of the problem (even if you stop at 10 people per group).

But the primary problem is that you find the existence of 10 assemblies v 1 assembly to be a problem. Ignoring the extremist position of a very large number of very small groups, none of actual the assemblies (forget the forced shrinkage) that are in a general area think of themselves as the only proper church and the others as not church. (Always liked the old joke about the Church of Christ thinking that only they would be in heaven.) No. They recognize that the others are also part of the universal body of Christ. They disagree over points of doctrine or practice, but do not invalidate the others because of those differences.

And your little, new-kid-on-the-block group is really no different than the others. With one serious exception. You actually think that you have the standing to invalidate all the others. To demand that they come your way.

That your discovery of dirt means that they all have to come your way no matter how laughable so many of your doctrinal positions are. And how egregiously you disdain everyone else for not joining with you. (They don't do that. Only the "we are the true church" types do those things.)

You like what ifs. So I'll do one.

What if it actually happened. If everyone somehow got the idea that all in a city (or in a subset of a city that provided no more than a reasonable number meeting on one place) joined into one assembly.

You don't want what you would get. You would cease to be the ones in charge. You would first have to browbeat everyone into submission. And if that didn't work, you would have to rely on your headquarters in Anaheim to keep the influx of new people who disagree about Witness Lee from voting out the elders who want to run the show. You might not get some of your favorite doctrines. Christ would no longer be simply the Holy Spirit because too many true theologians of upright character would not tolerate such nonsense to be taught from the assembly that they attend.

Why would this be the likely outcome? Because to get your "everyone meeting together on the ground" you also would have to force them to accept so many horrible doctrines. And everyone would also have to desire to learn from Lee rather than the host of teachers available outside.

But it wouldn't happen. You might get a lot of people idealizing over the notion that all meeting together would be so "spiritual." But once you start tossing Lee and his doctrines into the mix, it would end.

Now the speck that is currently the LRC is the minority within the beast they created. No one reading HWFMR in the meetings. Most of the "open-mic" time eliminated because there is some concern that just anyone saying just anything could cause many to think that the group (and the Bible) agreed.

So what would you do?

Probably leave and start your own group that kept Lee as the MOTA, and was busy declaring all those in that one big church as "degraded Christianity" and your new splinter group as "God's unique move on the earth."

I can assure you that just getting the few that are regulars with the two assemblies that I have met with over the past 30 years in the DFW area would empty out the LSM bookstores, and end HWFMR, and errant doctrines like Christ became the Holy Spirit in the area. This would not be a matter of being mean. It would be the result of the local conference of spiritual leaders that would discuss and pray and declare that "it seems good to us and the Holy Spirit." It would end. Not more denigrating those who aren't meeting with us as "mooing cows" or the Whore of Babylon. No more teaching that the uniqueness of the Trinity is virtually irrelevant and Christ is just the Holy Spirit.

And if you think that appealing to Anaheim would help, I fear that Anaheim might itself be buried under a similar sea of change of direction.

In short, your fantasy that all the Christians in the world could leave the denominations and just meet as the church in their cities would look anything like the LRC or hold to any its doctrines would collapse. It would be like the Road Runner cartoon where the coyote goes into a large pipe which keeps getting smaller and smaller, then when he lets himself out of a faucet, is only 4 inches tall and grabs the Road Runner by the leg, but then holds up a sign that says "Now I've got him what do I do with him?" The answer is obvious. "Nothing." Because you don't have either the force of numbers or the force of spiritual right to run anything that you are not allowed to run by the group.

And I can assure you that nothing of consequence that comes from Lee would remain.

- - - -

Might a meeting with a lot of people who have different doctrinal leanings be a desirable thing? Actually, yes. But because of what it is, it simply would not look like any of the groups. And it would be unable to force strict following of a single teaching source. It might not always do the Lord's table in the form that you like, or that I like. (Actually, I like several different ways. And the LRC's way is not out of the question — just not some special, unique, and only way.)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My follow on question to that would be "Which part and how many parts are there?". We then get to the point of the matter which is they believe there are many churches , and not "one church" as the bible teaches. That is because they are sects (groups within a group) and not "the church", as Christ said he will build "my church" (not churches).

I prefer to use the word "assemblies" rather than "churches". As we know there is one church, but many assemblies.
Talking about part or parts, when a pastor I knew refers to the local Body of Christ, he was referring to Christians living in Renton, Wa where this assembly meets locally. For any Christian that considered themselves part of the Body of Christ, they were welcome to meet.

[Drake]

OBW"You are straining at the analogy while missing the point. Paul used the analogy of a body with constituent parts (hand, foot, head, eyes, etc.) to demonstrate that we need each other. When you argue that it does not apply to groups of Christians relative to other groups of Christians is to insist that it may not be OK to belittle or dismiss a single member, but doing it wholesale to an entire group is OK."

but, but, but OBW,

It is not the local churches that divide the christians.... it is the denominations that in practice own they do not need EACH OTHER!

Ask the Southern Baptist Conference if they need the Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) conference to function.... they don't. Pick any two denominations, same thing. That is precisely the reason they exist independently, meet independently, manage independently. They would apply the members of the body verses to themselves in practice, not to each other... else, how could they continue to remain separated?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

OBW"You are straining at the analogy while missing the point. Paul used the analogy of a body with constituent parts (hand, foot, head, eyes, etc.) to demonstrate that we need each other. When you argue that it does not apply to groups of Christians relative to other groups of Christians is to insist that it may not be OK to belittle or dismiss a single member, but doing it wholesale to an entire group is OK."

but, but, but OBW,

It is not the local churches that divide the christians.... it is the denominations that in practice own they do not need EACH OTHER!

Drake

Drake, Drake, Drake,

Can't you, for just one second, remember your own sordid history as you lecture others on the body of Christ, and the needing of other believers?

When the Lee family got caught up in scandal after scandal, from Taipei payoffs to Daystar Motorhomes to molesting the volunteer sisters, did LSM ever get quarantined? Yet LSM so easily cut off whole regions of churches over frivolous meany details like playing drums, writing books, and preferring clean sheets. The Corinthian believers may have lost sight that they needed every finger and toe, but your leadership at LSM was willing to perform hari kari and spill out all the guts from their own "body" at that farcical Whistler kangaroo court.

By what authority can you judge whole denominations for their names? Take a step back and consider the attitude of your own leaders. Your own leadership in Anaheim has proven over and over that "in practice" you don't need any one else, except, of course, good lawyers and "cooperative" judges.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

OBW"You are straining at the analogy while missing the point. Paul used the analogy of a body with constituent parts (hand, foot, head, eyes, etc.) to demonstrate that we need each other. When you argue that it does not apply to groups of Christians relative to other groups of Christians is to insist that it may not be OK to belittle or dismiss a single member, but doing it wholesale to an entire group is OK."

but, but, but OBW,

It is not the local churches that divide the christians.... it is the denominations that in practice own they do not need EACH OTHER!

Talk about getting lost in semantics. In the way of functioning, you are no less saying that about any other — if anyone says it in a way that is as egregious as you claim.

So if you also don't need them, then what makes your group more precious? I know! It's the holy water sprinkled over your no-name name formula of saying you don't divide as you dismiss everyone else!

You can't claim that one of the latest groups to come along and separate from everyone else is not the one dividing the Christians — if they really are as divided as you claim. Of course, that is the whole thing. You argue that they are more divided than they are. Your claim that they don't need the others is derived from what? Your opinion? I have not seen anything anywhere (including posted here) that makes your claim meaningful. And if you choose to return with some quote from someone, then you are just grandstanding. But even if you succeed in finding such a statement, I suspect that it will be little more than an opinion by a person. Not a statement made by an entire group.

Your example of the SBC is one of the more foolish. There isn't even any control by the Conference on its members. They are free to join or leave as they see fit. They don't even fit the definition of a denomination as you would have it.

[Drake]

OBW, "Your example of the SBC is one of the more foolish. There isn't even any control by the Conference on its members. They are free to join or leave as they see fit. They don't even fit the definition of a denomination as you would have it."

OBW, the members can come an go as they please. We are discussing a denomination as an entity.

A SBC church cannot freely meet with an Assembly of God.... if they value their membership in the SBC conference. And if some zealous pastor wants to bolt because he spoke in tongues one night and take his SBC congregation with him to the nearest Pentecostal church he will find that contractually he cannot and the conference will send in a new pastor, approved by the conference of course. Every denomination is organized that way to a lesser or greater degree. There are many things in play: Belief system, Revenue intake, Control of Tangible Assets (like the property, buildings, and buses, etc.).

I have been involved in the organizational workings of denominational churches and their conferences so I am aware firsthand of the conversations associated with them.

I will give you one other example: the Pentecostal Holiness, the Assembly of God, and the Church of God denominations are very close in beliefs. The first two are for all intents and purposes identical with no daylight between them. For years they talked of merging.... "no need to have two denominations when there is no difference between us" was the thought. They talked but they did not merge and decided their assemblies should not to meet together because other things came in... conference headquarters, leadership positions, revenue streams, who gets to call the shots, logistics, etc.

That is the reality.... just call denominations for what they are.. they are divisions, organized that way by design. If after properly identifying them for what they are you still believe that denominations are right then do as Evangelical has suggested: Create more denominations and build the walls higher! At least then, you would be consistent. You do not have a scriptural leg to stand on by trying to equate a denomination as a member of a body. That is wrong in so many ways.

Drake

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

A SBC church cannot freely meet with an Assembly of God.... if they value their membership in the SBC conference.

First, assemblies do not, by definition, meet with assemblies. But they do join together in many things without any consideration that it is the dreaded SBD, AOG, MSP, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. (or gasp, the RCC) that are either behind it or also engaged. You are claiming false restrictions on the practice of faith by so many. They are not so restricted as you claim. That is simply a lie.

Only people assemble. And there would be no excommunication of a member of an SBC for meeting, even somewhat regularly, with and AOG assembly. And doubtful that such would happen for an RCC member also meeting with any of the others.

You have made a false statement.

Your analogy of a pastor taking his congregation to a different assembly presumes that the pastor dictates all things about his congregation.

But it might surprise you to know that there are times all over our area in which pastors who are part of different groups preach at the assemblies of other groups. Presbyterians at Bible churches. Baptists at Presbyterian. Free group preachers of Arminian doctrine preaching at assemblies of Calvinist doctrine. Even an Anglican greeted openly as guest preacher at the assembly I meet with (very non-Anglican). And it is not just for show.

No, I doubt that your elders were invited to speak anywhere else under these situations. But that is probably because they are not part of the family of churches whose leaders join together regularly to discuss their differences, and their heart for Christ and the communities in which they meet and their prayers for each other and for the spread of the gospel. Instead, you elders are closed. They meet only with themselves and do only what Anaheim allows.

They ought to join with them. They might learn that the lies spread by Lee and now the BBs about the sectarianism of Christianity is a fabrication.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

I will give you one other example: the Pentecostal Holiness, the Assembly of God, and the Church of God denominations are very close in beliefs. The first two are for all intents and purposes identical with no daylight between them. For years they talked of merging.... "no need to have two denominations when there is no difference between us" was the thought. They talked but they did not merge and decided their assemblies should not to meet together because other things came in... conference headquarters, leadership positions, revenue streams, who gets to call the shots, logistics, etc.

That is the reality.... just call denominations for what they are.. they are divisions, organized that way by design. If after properly identifying them for what they are you still believe that denominations are right then do as Evangelical has suggested: Create more denominations and build the walls higher! At least then, you would be consistent. You do not have a scriptural leg to stand on by trying to equate a denomination as a member of a body. That is wrong in so many ways.

Drake

Drake, what do you think is the difference between this and the kind of divisions that occur within the LC?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

I will give you one other example: the Pentecostal Holiness, the Assembly of God, and the Church of God denominations are very close in beliefs. The first two are for all intents and purposes identical with no daylight between them. For years they talked of merging.... "no need to have two denominations when there is no difference between us" was the thought. They talked but they did not merge and decided their assemblies should not to meet together because other things came in... conference headquarters, leadership positions, revenue streams, who gets to call the shots, logistics, etc.

Yes, you can find a case where there was discussion of a merger and the truth always is that people are the problem. Just like the people who are running your show. How could you pretend to take on an entire assembly of say, 1,000 who suddenly came your way?

First, it would only happen if much more than the doctrine of dirt was what was being agreed on. You will find that your mantra that dirt solves everything is just a pretty mannequin propped-up in front of a junk yard of bad doctrines. You will never find any significant persons who will be fooled by the doctrine of dirt. It has too many leeches hanging onto it. The claim that it is spiritually preferable is shown to be the lie that it is when the baggage that comes with it is seen.

You tell me how just agreeing to meet at the church in Dallas will solve your problems with those who currently are not meeting with you. It will not do it because it is a fantasy that God is actually for your errant doctrines and will just fix it all if they only see the ground.

Make you a deal. Start really dealing with the teachings that are so far from scripture that they can hardly be called Christian, and I will discuss the unity that you think is found only within your doors.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Terry

No, but what I have heard is saying they're part of the local Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ is universal, spanning space and time. The churches are local.

Those who use the term "local Body of Christ" want it both ways: They are leveraging the fact that they are members of the universal Body of Christ and apply it to their division, the very divisions that separate its members.

Drake