Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I think they could care less who Hank joins, as long as they have stacks of "We were wrong" essays piled in the back room. The LC doesn't really care who wrote it, as long as they have an "orthodox evangelical" membership card.

I think the issue the LCM is going to have to deal with sometime down the road is the fact that Hank has stated that he joined the EOC as a result of his experiences in China. So while I think it's true that they don't necessarily care who he associates with, he has now made the claim that his interaction with the LC led him to non-LC group. Certainly, the blendeds couldn't be too happy about that, especially since I recall one of them stating that Hank was starting to "see God's economy."

Originally Posted by aron

Likewise, they can say, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary is part of the Great Abomination" and, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary accepts us as card-carrying, legitimate evangelical Christian expression." Just don't say both statements together, as that might produce some cognitive dissonance.

But you can see why they hold both positions: each is helpful to recruiting. Just don't pay attention to the contradiction.

I don't recall if WL ever made specific mention of the EOC, but I have no doubt he would have put it in the same category as the RCC. Seemingly, Hank is unaware or chooses to ignore some of WL's harsh statements made towards groups like what he is now a part of. Why would Hank choose to be supportive of someone who viscously attacked such Christian groups? That is why I don't think Hank is someone to be taken seriously.

Taking a step back, I think a lot of the issue arises from how the blendeds have attempted to defend WL's teaching of deification. Why do they so adamantly defend his teaching? It's mainly for the simple reason of it being something that WL taught. But this is exactly what puts them in the awkward position of having to point to groups like the EOC and RCC in order to show 'precedent' for what WL taught (even though I'm sure there is a vast difference between the EO teaching of Theosis and what WL taught).

Consider Hank though, his full-time job is apologetics. Obviously, people like him are not the type who are likely to be attracted to home-grown theology. Yet whatever happened through his interaction with the LCM was enough to have a significant effect on his views. So I think this created a dilemma for him. He didn't want to join the LCM like his colleague Paul Young did. Rather, he probably wanted something more 'structured', and thus for whatever reason moved in the direction of the EOC.

What is so striking is that he so easily viewed the EOC as a viable and natural alternative to the LCM. I don't think that would be the choice for most who leave the LCM, but we can't forget that Hank is apparently completely sold on WL's teaching of deification. So perhaps he wanted a group that embraces a similar teaching, but is interested in supporting and talking about the teaching instead of telling people not to "get in their mind about it." In the LC, people are taught to embrace various teachings for the sole reason of it being something that WL taught. They are not given an actual reason as to why the teaching would be helpful or worth discussing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Consider Hank though, his full-time job is apologetic. Obviously, people like him are not the type who are likely to be attracted to home-grown theology. Yet whatever happened through his interaction with the LCM was enough to have a significant effect on his views. So I think this created a dilemma for him. He didn't want to join the LCM like his colleague Paul Young did. Rather, he probably wanted something more 'structured', and thus for whatever reason moved in the direction of the EOC.

Two things characterize the LSM LC: ignorance and fervor. And that seems to be amplified on both counts in China. Probably that did have an effect on him.

Maybe the EOC gave him an opportunity to be more fervent, without the ignorance.

When I say ignorance I mean this: the RCC split off from the EOC and largely lost the Fathers. Martin Luther broke off from the RCC and got separated further still from the historical church. So the Calvinist/Lutheran "me and my Bible" became a cover for "me and my concepts, with the Bible in an occasional supporting role". Witness Lee is my star example -- concepts galore. We should give it a name: "The Church of Witness Lee's Home-made Theology". Let people know what is really inside.

But Hank liked the enthusiasm. So he looked for something to get enthusiastic about.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

But Hank liked the enthusiasm. So he looked for something to get enthusiastic about.

I toured a Greek Orthodox Church a couple years back. It was a great educational experience for someone like me who might be otherwise ignorant to what such groups believe and practice.

What I discovered is that they are well aware of the criticism that gets directed at them for things like the usage of icons or the veneration of Mary. And they are quite willing to explain their views and answer questions. To say they are an enthusiastic bunch would be an understatement.

The LCM is also a group full of enthusiasm. But they feel that they are entitled to exist in a realm free of being questioned or having to explain their views. As such, when the enthusiasm is always accompanied by an evasiveness to questions, it acts as a people deterrent.

So I don't really blame Hank for choosing the EOC over the LC. Decisions like that are basically inevitable as long as the LC chooses to act the way it does.

[Evangelical]

People here may or may not realise that joining the EOC is a big commitment. It's not like choosing to visit a different church every Sunday. There is a process of conversion. It's almost like joining a different religion entirely.

Conversion to the Orthodox Church from another Christian denomination, or from a non-Christian Faith or from a background of no religious practice is a very serious matter both for the Orthodox Church and for the person seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. It is, essentially, a lifetime mutual commitment.
https://www.greekorthodox.org.au/?page_id=3875

So when you say he has "rejected the LC", he has also rejected whatever Christian/evangelical/open/free group you belong to as well.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So when you say he has "rejected the LC", he has also rejected whatever Christian/evangelical/open/free group you belong to as well.

I don't belong to any group. But even if I did, it wouldn't matter to me.

LC coworkers invested a ton of effort and resource into actively wooing Hanegraaff for years, wining and dining him, jetting him all over the world visiting churches in China, Taiwan, Korea, Europe, and around the US, giving him reserved seating at conferences and trainings (even joining coworkers meetings), instructing members to pray for him and his dwindling radio ministry, coaching him in theosis.

And after all that, Hanegraaff rejects the LC and joins Eastern Orthodoxy. That's embarrassing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Norm

Just finished listening to both portions on the Bible Answer Man. What a snow job. Take Hank H. around the world. Wine and dine him. Let him speak in your meetings and even speak about quoting the Bible. Get two hours of HH helping you sell your package.

Behind the screens, quarantine Titus for speaking differently and promoting the Bible. Use lawyers, lawsuits and courts to drive out the believers you do not feel are one with the program. Publicly talk about the seeking of oneness with all the believers.

After what I have passed through this was utterly revolting. I do not like smiley faces; but, if I had one puking I would use it. Sorry for my graphic frankness.

I found a smiley for Norm --

Originally Posted by Koinonia

LC coworkers invested a ton of effort and resource into actively wooing Hanegraaff for years, wining and dining him, jetting him all over the world visiting churches in China, Taiwan, Korea, Europe, and around the US, giving him reserved seating at conferences and trainings (even joining coworkers meetings), instructing members to pray for him and his dwindling radio ministry, coaching him in theosis.

And after all that, Hanegraaff rejects the LC and joins Eastern Orthodoxy. That's embarrassing.

I found it quite interesting to read both Norm's and Koinonia's accounts of how LSM solicited ole Hankygraft's glowing endorsement of their ministry. For the right price, one can buy most anything.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I found it quite interesting to read both Norm's and Koinonia's accounts of how LSM solicited ole Hankygraft's glowing endorsement of their ministry. For the right price, one can buy most anything.

Isn't money quite the common denominator when it comes to Living Stream Ministry? It's been speculated for years for CRI to come out with the "We Were Wrong Article", there was a dollar figure attached to influence CRI to write such an article.
Now with Hank's conversion, the attitude may be "there's nothing to see here." To ask any questions, "you're on the wrong tree". Why Hank didn't become a LC member, "he didn't have the vision". That's usually the attitude for anyone who meets, but doesn't remain in the local churches.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I don't belong to any group. But even if I did, it wouldn't matter to me.

LC coworkers invested a ton of effort and resource into actively wooing Hanegraaff for years, wining and dining him, jetting him all over the world visiting churches in China, Taiwan, Korea, Europe, and around the US, giving him reserved seating at conferences and trainings (even joining coworkers meetings), instructing members to pray for him and his dwindling radio ministry, coaching him in theosis.

And after all that, Hanegraaff rejects the LC and joins Eastern Orthodoxy. That's embarrassing.

Koinonia,

Have you not read "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together"?

How do you square your not belonging to the apostles exhortation?

Now in regard to the Hankster.... you are assuming that introducing him, Eliott, Getchen, and CRI staff to the local churches was for the purpose of having them join. Not so. As one of the leading christian apologists organizations and one whose voice reaches around the world including to China, where the government uses anything to justify persecution of believers, the objective was due diligence to provide Hank and staff with a first person experience to the practises and teachings in the local churches. He did and the result was the article "We Were Wrong".

I know that irks you but, Hank never said he would join the Lord's Recovery, nor did say he agreed with all the teachings either. What he said was the previous objections were misunderstandings and running a more thorough review including one of the original researchers (Gretchen) they determined they were wrong about the teachings of the local churches CRI previously labeled heretical and the ministry and the teachings do fall within the pale of Christian orthodoxy and the believers should be embraced as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Fact is, short of Hank joining this forum and engaging in the unbridled attacking of Witness Lee, nothing he would do could ever quench the insatiable appetite for accusing and slandering those believers in the local churches. And of course you justify in your head that attacking the messenger is also fair game. Yet, I don't think Hank really cares what this forum thinks. Rather, your assertions serve one purpose, they simply reinforce the beliefs you already own.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

Have you not read "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together"?

How do you square your not belonging to the apostles exhortation?

I do not forsake assembling together with other believers.

Now in regard to the Hankster.... you are assuming that introducing him, Eliott, Getchen, and CRI staff to the local churches was for the purpose of having them join. Not so. As one of the leading christian apologists organizations and one whose voice reaches around the world including to China, where the government uses anything to justify persecution of believers, the objective was due diligence to provide Hank and staff with a first person experience to the practises and teachings in the local churches. He did and the result was the article "We Were Wrong".

I know that irks you but, Hank never said he would join the Lord's Recovery, nor did say he agreed with all the teachings either. What he said was the previous objections were misunderstandings and running a more thorough review including one of the original researchers (Gretchen) they determined they were wrong about the teachings of the local churches CRI previously labeled heretical and the ministry and the teachings do fall within the pale of Christian orthodoxy and the believers should be embraced as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Fact is, short of Hank joining this forum and engaging in the unbridled attacking of Witness Lee, nothing he would do could ever quench the insatiable appetite for accusing and slandering those believers in the local churches. And of course you justify in your head that attacking the messenger is also fair game. Yet, I don't think Hank really cares what this forum thinks. Rather, your assertions serve one purpose, they simply reinforce the beliefs you already own.

Drake

Drake, you make a lot of assumptions about me. You do not know anything about me, with whom I meet, or what "irks" me, or what is in my head. With respect, you seem to be completely ignorant of the endless courting and wooing of Hank Hanegraaff by LC coworkers (taking place until very recently). It had nothing to do with "We Were Wrong" because it lasted for years beyond the publication of "We Were Wrong."

And do you actually believe that it is "attacking the messenger" to discuss Hanegraaff's rejecting the LC to join Eastern Orthodoxy? It has always been a tenuous position for the LC to hang so much of their defense before evangelicals on Hanegraaff's position. It is even more tenuous now that Hanegraaff has left evangelicalism to join Eastern Orthodoxy. Does that not cause you to question his credibility as an apologist at all? And how ironic that Hanegraaff credits his joining Eastern Orthodoxy to his contact with the LC (what he terms "the progeny of Watchman Nee").

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I don't belong to any group. But even if I did, it wouldn't matter to me.

LC coworkers invested a ton of effort and resource into actively wooing Hanegraaff for years, wining and dining him, jetting him all over the world visiting churches in China, Taiwan, Korea, Europe, and around the US, giving him reserved seating at conferences and trainings (even joining coworkers meetings), instructing members to pray for him and his dwindling radio ministry, coaching him in theosis.

And after all that, Hanegraaff rejects the LC and joins Eastern Orthodoxy. That's embarrassing.

A Christian who does not belong to any group? Interesting.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A Christian who does not belong to any group? Interesting.

What Drake and Evangelical fail to remember is that under the premises by which most Christians are said to "belong" to any group, they also belong to no group because they do not have any formal membership. Just those who come and meet with them.

I think they would have a difficult time carrying on one of their business meetings if there was suddenly an influx of "outsiders" who were clearly Christian such that the majority of Christians present might not simply agree to carry on in the manner that they have been. That is the way they did them in Dallas years ago. Just a quick business meeting at the end of a regular church meeting in which they ask that everyone who votes to carry on the manner that they have been to say "Amen."

What if more would not say "amen" than those who do? They have no basis for exclusion of them and therefore would loose their control.

Unless they have gotten wise and now also have formal membership.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I don't belong to any group. But even if I did, it wouldn't matter to me.

LC coworkers invested a ton of effort and resource into actively wooing Hanegraaff for years, wining and dining him, jetting him all over the world visiting churches in China, Taiwan, Korea, Europe, and around the US, giving him reserved seating at conferences and trainings (even joining coworkers meetings), instructing members to pray for him and his dwindling radio ministry, coaching him in theosis.

And after all that, Hanegraaff rejects the LC and joins Eastern Orthodoxy. That's embarrassing.

No. This is what it's about: Hankie played the LC. He took the money and ran. He could have joined First Baptist Dallas and the embarrassment to the LC would be the same. Maybe the LSM will file a lawsuit against Hankie to get their money back.

You can talk about the Eastern Orthodox, etc., all you want but you should do that on another thread. You've created yet another strawman.

Hankie beat the LSM at their own game and THAT's the topic.

Nell

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Nell

No. This is what it's about: Hankie played the LC. He took the money and ran. He could have joined First Baptist Dallas and the embarrassment to the LC would be the same. Maybe the LSM will file a lawsuit against Hankie to get their money back.

You can talk about the Eastern Orthodox, etc., all you want but you should do that on another thread. You've created yet another strawman.

Hankie beat the LSM at their own game and THAT's the topic.

Nell

Nell, why are you arguing with me?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

No. This is what it's about: Hankie played the LC. He took the money and ran. He could have joined First Baptist Dallas and the embarrassment to the LC would be the same. Maybe the LSM will file a lawsuit against Hankie to get their money back.

You can talk about the Eastern Orthodox, etc., all you want but you should do that on another thread. You've created yet another strawman.

Hankie beat the LSM at their own game and THAT's the topic.

Nell

Nell, read the title of this thread carefully. It's about Hank's conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy. My posts about Eastern Orthodoxy and views of church vs sect have been more on topic than yours because my posts are not about some imagined and invented embarrassment to the local churches. "Hankie beating the LSM at their own game" is your strawman and no evidence has been provided of this in the OP. This is not about the LC but about Hank rejecting evangelical Protestantism. This is more an embarrassment to evangelical Protestantism than to us.

Read the link in the OP again. This topic should be about the content of that link. It says nothing about the LC. You think it's about Hank playing the LC, and causing embarrassment to the LC.

Hank converted from evangelical Protestantism to Orthodox. He did not convert from LC to Orthodox. I don't recall him ever "converting" to us.

I quote from the article linked in the OP (emphasis mine):

Hanegraaff’s conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy should not be viewed as a mere isolated occurrence. There has been a definite trend for the past few decades of a growing number of American evangelical Protestants converting to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

Hanegraaff’s defection from evangelicalism after three decades as an influential evangelical teacher is likely to have damaging repercussions for years to come. Those of us who remain convinced evangelicals need to answer this and other challenges by speaking the truth in love.

Hanks' conversion is a challenge to evangelicals. It is not a challenge to the LC. This is about a three-decade evangelical teacher converting to Orthodoxy. It was not a three-decade LC member converting to Orthodoxy.

This is yet another example of members of this forum finding anything on the internet that could be perceived to be against the local churches, and creating a "mud pie" out of it to sling in the local churches direction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Maybe the EOC gave him an opportunity to be more fervent, without the ignorance.

When I say ignorance I mean this: the RCC split off from the EOC and largely lost the Fathers. Martin Luther broke off from the RCC and got separated further still from the historical church. So the Calvinist/Lutheran "me and my Bible" became a cover for "me and my concepts ...

I'm not understanding this. It seems like you are lamenting some lost connection to the primitive church. Having studied the history of the Papal church, I can see little that resembled the N.T. Wycliffe, Hus, Luther, and others nobly tried to reform the organized church, but theologically went back to the scriptures as their starting point. By their time, Rome had lost all connection with it, except for the monk scribes transcribing the Latin.