Looking for a Particular Ministry Publication

Hey there. I recently came across some quotes from Ron Kangas about “burning bridges” with Christianity. Apparently they were from a publication called “The Ministry of the Word.” It was published in February of 2004, but I can’t seem to find it online anywhere. Could someone help me out?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bookseeker

Hey there. I recently came across some quotes from Ron Kangas about “burning bridges” with Christianity. Apparently they were from a publication called “The Ministry of the Word.” It was published in February of 2004, but I can’t seem to find it online anywhere. Could someone help me out?

That was about the time RK and Co decided to “burn bridges” with the Midwest LC’s. Those Blendeds at LSM really should not let RK play with matches.

To Ohio:

It seems they’ve gotten rid of that serious of books on their sites. I can see publications of “The Ministry” from before 2004 and after, but none during that time. It would be nice to be able to reference them because I still know some people in The Recovery who say that their group loves and accepts all Christians but I know it’s not true. They say some harsh things about other Christian groups and mock them a lot. Perhaps seeing the things that their leaders say would help, but I can’t seem to find those specific publications anywhere!

It is this?
https://blendedbody.com/AAA-Personal...ristianity.htm

[UntoHim]

As Posted At BlendedBody.Com

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"The Lord's recovery is not a part of Christianity"
Ron Kangas, Senior Editor and Director of Living Stream Ministry (LSM)

"There is an unbridgeable gap between the Lord's recovery and Christianity"
Ron Kangas, (The Ministry, June, 2004, p. 10)

"We need to maintain the gap between us and Christianity; the wider the gap is the better"
Ron Kangas

"There is a great gulf fixed between the Lord's recovery and Christianity." Ron Kangas

******"If there are any bridges between a local church and Christianity, I hope that we would go back, burn the bridges and broaden the gap."
Ron Kangas

"There is an irreconcilable difference between the church life in the Lord's recovery and today's Christianity in any of its forms."
Ron Kangas

"It is impossible for there to be any reconciliation between the recovery and Christianity."
Ron Kangas

"There is a separation between us and all the denominations, between us and all forms of organized Christianity"
Ron Kangas

"We should not try through diplomacy or negotiation to be reconciled."
Ron Kangas

(NOTE: All quotes from The Ministry, Feb., 2004, pp. 8-25 unless otherwise indicated)
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[TheStarswillFall]

"We are one by eating Jesus"
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Thanks for sharing that PDF. Those are the quotes I had found, but I’d like the original materials if possible.

I feel like by this point 20 years later someone might easily say “you just made that up” if I don’t have the original publications and can only show a PDF compiled by some random critic. If anyone has a pdf of the entire issue of ”The Ministry” where these quotes are from or knows where I can acquire a physical copy of that issue, I’d be very grateful.

[UntoHim]

Bookseeker,

I don't know if you are dealing with a younger person or someone new to the Local Church of Witness Lee, but if they have been in the movement for any length of time you will not have to worry about any contention from them that you have "made it up"....most Local Churchers will not contest these quotes, on the contrary they will probably respond with a hearty "Amen!".

This being said, you may want to get in touch with someone who has a paid subscription at MinistryBooks.Org - this particular publication may only be available to those with a paid subscription.
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[Sunshine]

Hello bookseeker
You will find that the speaking in ministry of the word is a repeat of a combination of Watchman Nee and Witness past speaking word for word.

In LSM ministrybooks.org web page, you can search for book titles based on key words or phrases.

Have a look there.

I’ve checked on ministrybooks with a subscription, but I couldn't find that particular issue. Perhaps one day I can find a physical copy. I’m sure there’s one or two floating around somewhere out there.

I like the idea of using those quotes and searching ministrybooks.org to find similar statements. It can be a real chore, but I’m sure I’ll find something.

Here's a quote that contains some of what you are looking for, and the ministry book it came from:

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Revelation 2:6 speaks of the works of the Nicolaitans, and 2:15 speaks of the teaching of the Nicolaitans. This clergy-laity system caused the church to become the religious system of Christianity, which is another religious age. Paul needed to be delivered from Judaism, the religious age at his time. Today we need to be delivered from Christianity, the religious age in our time.

I am sharing this to help us realize that the history among us has been one of coming completely out of Christianity without compromise. It is a shame that some so-called co-workers among us have tried their best to compromise. They say that between the denominations and the local churches there is a gap, and they consider themselves as the bridge to bridge the gap. This was a suffering to Brother Nee, and today this is a suffering to me.

Since 1927, just two years after I was saved, I began to be delivered out of the present evil age, the age of Christianity. Some have told me that I should not say that Christianity is degraded. But according to Revelation 17, the religious system of Christianity is a great prostitute. Verse 5 calls this great prostitute "Babylon the Great, The Mother of the Prostitutes." We need to be delivered from this mother and from her daughters, who are the prostitutes. Since the mother of the Prostitutes is the apostate Roman Catholic Church, the prostitutes, her daughters, should be all the different sects and groups in Christianity who hold to some extent the teaching, practices, and traditions of the apostate Roman Church. We need to be delivered out of this present evil age. We have to come out of Christianity and come back to the Body of Christ. The pure church life has no evil transmitted from the apostate church.

Because of our standing for the pure church life, others have been offended. But what can we do? Paul said in Galatians 1:10, "If I were still pleasing me, I would not be a slave of Christ." If we were men-pleasers, we would not suffer persecution as Paul did. The history of the Lord's recovery is a history of coming out of and being outside of the present evil age. We have burned the bridges between us and Christianity, but some among us have tried to build a bridge to bring us back. We need to burn all the bridges. There should be no bridge between the local churches and Christianity. Everything should be after its kind. The denominations are after their kind and the local churches should be after their kind. We should be what we are without compromise or pretense.

We need to maintain such a gap between us and Christianity. The wider this gap is the better because it is a gap between us and the present evil age.

The History of the Church and the Local Churches, pages 112-114

[Sunshine]

I did a search on bridges and quite a few hits came up.

Watchman Nee's mention of burning bridges and not shaking hands over the fence with denominations, in his book Further Talks on the church life.

I have attached a screen shot of some of the search results in this reply.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I did a search on bridges and quite a few hits came up.

Watchman Nee's mention of burning bridges and not shaking hands over the fence with denominations, in his book Further Talks on the church life.

I have attached a screen shot of some of the search results in this reply.

That is an interesting quote from WN. It is ironic because he built bridges to what I think were false teachers like the exclusive brethren who held to a millennial exclusion theology which would allow for those practicing sinful lifestyles to enter heaven for eternity. It's probably no coincidence that his disciple Witness Lee went on to practice sins such as money laundering and elevating his rapist son Philip Lee to the head of the ministry office without any repentance.

If only Nee had built bridges to traditional Baptists like Hudson Taylor instead, we may all be in a better place. I am grateful for the western missionaries who gave up their lives to preach the gospel in China and wish Nee would have been grateful.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by guest-eroony

Revelation 2:6 speaks of the works of the Nicolaitans, and 2:15 speaks of the teaching of the Nicolaitans. This clergy-laity system caused the church to become the religious system of Christianity, which is another religious age. Paul needed to be delivered from Judaism, the religious age at his time. Today we need to be delivered from Christianity, the religious age in our time

This is a really bad take on the Nicolaitans by Witness Lee. What made them heretics despite adhering to the basic truths outlined in the Nicene Creed is that they taught that the grace of God allowed them to live sinful lifestyles and still be saved in violation of Romans 6. Interestingly, this is not too much unlike how Witness Lee taught.

https://www.samstorms.org/enjoying-g...he-nicolaitans

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

If only Nee had built bridges to traditional Baptists like Hudson Taylor instead, we may all be in a better place. I am grateful for the western missionaries who gave up their lives to preach the gospel in China and wish Nee would have been grateful.

Hudson Taylor was close to many Open Brethren like George Muller of Bristol. I have noted elsewhere that many early Brethren leaders unknowingly? divided over their denominational backgrounds. The Exclusives (eg Darby, Wigram) were formerly Anglican, with a hierarchical ecclesiological structure. The Opens (eg Muller, Chapman) were formerly Baptist, with more independent and local structure.

Both Darby and Nee and Lee all started their movements based on independent or autonomous assemblies, or local churches, sometimes called the "Antioch principle." But later in life all three transitioned to centralized power, the so-called "Jerusalem principle," similar to Catholic and Anglican structures.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hudson Taylor was close to many Open Brethren like George Muller of Bristol. I have noted elsewhere that many early Brethren leaders unknowingly? divided over their denominational backgrounds. The Exclusives (eg Darby, Wigram) were formerly Anglican, with a hierarchical ecclesiological structure. The Opens (eg Muller, Chapman) were formerly Baptist, with more independent and local structure.

Both Darby and Nee and Lee all started their movements based on independent or autonomous assemblies, or local churches, sometimes called the "Antioch principle." But later in life all three transitioned to centralized power, the so-called "Jerusalem principle," similar to Catholic and Anglican structures.

Thanks for the historical background Ohio and I'm glad I chose my words carefully and didn't lump all the Brethren in one category. George Müller seemed like a genuine man of God and he is listed as one of the primary founders of the Open Brethren based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Brethren.

According to that article, George Müller also did not accept Darby's dispensationalism:

"Although generally held by most Brethren, both historical and contemporary, there have always been some Brethren who rejected Dispensationalism. George Müller and G. H. Lang were among the prominent Brethren leaders who never accepted this doctrine, and non-Dispensationalism has always been followed by a significant minority of Open Brethren in the United Kingdom"

Which I think would imply that the Open Brethren did not hold to the 1000 year purgatory concept for unfaithful Christians living in sin and adopted a view of salvation closer to the traditional Baptist theology of dichotomizing true and false believers. Note that I'm not equating dispensationalism with millennial exclusion but it does seem to be a requirement for it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

This is a really bad take on the Nicolaitans by Witness Lee. What made them heretics despite adhering to the basic truths outlined in the Nicene Creed is that they taught that the grace of God allowed them to live sinful lifestyles and still be saved in violation of Romans 6. Interestingly, this is not too much unlike how Witness Lee taught.

https://www.samstorms.org/enjoying-g...he-nicolaitans

This interpretation of “Nicolaitans” is just as speculative as the one in the Recovery, I.e. the so-called “clergy-laity system.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Thanks for the historical background Ohio and I'm glad I chose my words carefully and didn't lump all the Brethren in one category. George Müller seemed like a genuine man of God and he is listed as one of the primary founders of the Open Brethren based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Brethren.

According to that article, George Müller also did not accept Darby's dispensationalism:

Which I think would imply that the Open Brethren did not hold to the 1000 year purgatory concept for unfaithful Christians living in sin and adopted a view of salvation closer to the traditional Baptist theology of dichotomizing true and false believers. Note that I'm not equating dispensationalism with millennial exclusion but it does seem to be a requirement for it.

Dispensationalism is a valuable tool in Bible interpretation. I don’t dismiss is merely because Darby popularized it. Granted it, like any other interpretation, can be taken to extremes. Many opposed this parallel track of Israel/Church long before there were any signs of the restoration of the nation of Israel.

As an aside, Preterist teachings on eschatology also developed long before any signs of life were seen in the ancient land of Israel.

The initial clashes between Darby and Newton concerned end time events. Personally I think Darby used his unique teachings to elevate his position among the Brethren. His battles with Newton, and subsequently with Muller, progressed from topic to topic in order to gain footing and develop an upper hand among adherents. Thus theological differences were used as a means to an end, and as a way to identify parties. The end is control. The driving force is the lust for power. Did we not also see this when the Midwest LC’s were expelled?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dispensationalism is a valuable tool in Bible interpretation. I don’t dismiss is merely because Darby popularized it. Granted it, like any other interpretation, can be taken to extremes. Many opposed this parallel track of Israel/Church long before there were any signs of the restoration of the nation of Israel.

I'm okay with dispensationalism as well, just not an extreme form. I lean towards progressive dispensationalism and am open to commonwealth theology as well.
https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-boo...pensationalism

When Jesus died and rose he definitely ushered in a new age. The law came through Moses but grace & reality came through Jesus. Nevertheless the OT saints were also saved by faith in God (Hebrews 11) but the test of faith and expectations were different yet Jesus taught that repentance from sin was required just like in the OT.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Acts 3:19 (NLT)
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

Acts 3:26 (NLT)
When God raised up his servant, Jesus, he sent him first to you people of Israel, to bless you by turning each of you back from your sinful ways.

Luke 13:2-3 (NLT)
Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

Another difference between myself and Darby would be that I believe the church will go through the tribulation which is Satan's wrath but will be raptured before God's wrath which is around the sixth seal which is a pre-wrath view of the end times. So I would interpret the Olivet discourse applying to Jesus' audience who were his followers and not unbelieving Jews. Hence warnings such as Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." would apply to us as well.

I agree Preterism is a heresy.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This interpretation of “Nicolaitans” is just as speculative as the one in the Recovery, I.e. the so-called “clergy-laity system.”

Witness Lee has no verses to back up his claim of Nicolaitans conforming to a clergy-laity system however, whereas Sam Storms cites scripture to back up his view including Revelation 2:14-16

But I have a few things against you [the church of Pergamos]: you have some there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel, so that they would eat food sacrificed to idols and practice fornication. So you also have some who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Wikipedia also has source material on this view throughout church history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola...d%20the%20sect.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Witness Lee has no verses to back up his claim of Nicolaitans conforming to a clergy-laity system however, whereas Sam Storms cites scripture to back up his view including Revelation 2:14-16

bearbear here are those verses to Pergamos --

“But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.”-- Revelation 2:14-16

Here's the problem Sam Storms et. al. have. Apostle John says "so also you have some" who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Scholars have kicked this around for centuries without a definitive conclusion. John clearly identifies two distinct heresies and those who hold these heresies. Good Bible exposition requires differentiation here. If they were the same, John would not say, ""So also you have some."

But I'll readily agree with you that the Nee/Lee teaching lacks basis. Both of them used this teaching early in their ministry to condemn the rest of the Body of Christ, uplifting themselves. (see Acts 20.30) The Apostles themselves established certain ministerial offices in the churches (elders and deacons) and gifts from the Head to the body of Christ. (Eph 4.11)

The only criticism we can level at those who hold church office is moral or "lording it over" the saints.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's the problem Sam Storms et. al. have. Apostle John says "so also you have some" who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Scholars have kicked this around for centuries without a definitive conclusion. John clearly identifies two distinct heresies and those who hold these heresies. Good Bible exposition requires differentiation here. If they were the same, John would not say, ""So also you have some."

"So also you have some" could be a linguistic device that ties to the two together. God was likely juxtaposing the OT and NT versions of the same thing.

Balaam had correct theology and believed in God but he was disobedient in heart. The Nicolaitans allegedly adhered to the basic truths in the Nicene creed but used the grace of God to commit sexual immorality and "eat foods sacrificed to idols" in violation of Acts 15.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.

In "Against Heresies" (Book I, Chapter 26, Section 3), Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John, author of the book of Revelation states:

"The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, when they are represented as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols."

I don't think Jesus intended for us to throw up our hands in the air regarding the Nicolaitans when he mentioned them in his letter to the churches so I'm going to go with Irenaeus's interpretation since he may have got his interpretation from the Apostle John through Polycarp.