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Old 01-19-2020, 05:48 PM   #1
Curious
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Default Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

Considering the teaching of the Lordís Recovery on women; aka the half of the human race that is easily deceived and lacks discernment. Lets just take a little stroll through the Ďpure word of Godí to confirm this Ďunassailableí truth.

Letís look at some demonstrations of the lack of discernment and propensity to being deceived in women, and their reliance on men to keep them in line with truth.

Letís start by gong toÖThe taking down of the city of Jericho. In a city full of people, only one discerned that the Israelites were the people of the one true God, and that God was the God of all humanity, and was a good and loving God. Only one person perceived that there could be a way to be rescued into their numbers by seeking an opportunity to connect with their spies. Of course, it would have to be a man that would be so able to avoid the deception of his own religious system, and to discern a way that God could enable such a connection to happen. Probably a Noah, or Abraham equivalent. A man who had kept himself clean and lived an upstanding and holy life, yes thatís the type of man that could have been an unhappy Canaanite living in a godless city and believing for a better life with the people of God. After all, this person is noble enough to end up in the lineage of Jesus himself!

[Check out the account in the book of Joshua, chapters 2 and 6, Matthew 1:5 and James 2:25]

Now letís visit David, surviving in the wilderness, but doing it tough. In desperate need of food and supplies for his men, he approaches a man named Nabal, who wanted to help David, as a discerning male. Yet his wife, Abigail sent insults back to David instead. This nearly caused David to break out in a violent attack on Nabalís household. Only the wise and discerning Nabal saved the day by negating his foolish and short-sighted Wifeís intentions and bravely approaching the furious David directly with an apology and the provision David had requested.

[Check out the story in 1 Samuel chapter 25]

Next letís look at the divine conception. Naturally God spoke to Joseph about this first, as the male and the authority over her. Poor dear Mary would not have been able to discern an angel speaking to her, after all, being an easily deceived woman without discernment. And of course, God can only speak to a woman through her husband, so she had to wait to hear it from him to learn what was happening to her in becoming mysteriously pregnant. That mustíve been a bit tough on her, but what else can God do when all daughters of Eve are thusly unable?

[From Luke 1;26-38]

Not long before Jesus death, he was sitting in a house of a Simon the leper, in a room with his 12 male disciples. Amongst them, someone got up and preformed the priestly duty of anointing his body for burial. One person in that room felt the leading of the Holy Spirit to do so, no one else had a clue what was going on except Jesus and the person performing the anointing. Naturally, it could only be a man, firstly, to have such a discernment and secondly, only a man could perform the priestly duties. Yes, absolutely had to be a man.

[Found in the book of Matthew 26:6-13]

Another telling story is that of Pilate and his wife. Pilate felt, from a dream he had the night before, that he should have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus, yet his wife pressed him to use this as an opportunity to further his career. Poor deceived woman, going for the temporary things and ignorant of the spiritual level of what was taking place.

[Matthew 27:19-26, and Luke 23:12]

Do these stories back the notion that women cannot discern and are easily deceived? Or is it as often as not that women are the ones WITH the discernment? And wouldnít these biblical accounts of events unfold differently if WLís ideas were actually supported by the bible?

I have one last and obscure point. MAYBE Eve was more easily deceived than Adam because she was younger than him and had therefore had less time and opportunity to develop her relationship with God directly. If men can also be deceived and women can sin deliberately, then the two propensities exist throughout human nature and are not gender exclusive. Maybe the real lesson is to get to know God and remain close to Him to avoid either mistake of being deceived OR caught up in wilful disobedience?

Maybe even Pauls words to women to be Ďsilentí in the church were not God casting a prohibition on all women for all time, as the words Ďlistení and Ďsilenceí in the English language contain the exact same letters as each other, maybe Gods message to us is to Ďlistení to God to get to know Him and His ways, and that protects us all from being too quick to air our assumptions and be easily deceived! Just a thought.
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Old 01-19-2020, 09:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

There is no record that God told Eve directly about not eating of the tree. She must have heard 2nd hamd from Adam. Perhaps the message was altered. Adam transgressed God's command, but the record did not say that Eve also transgressed.
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

Personally I believe man and woman are equally responsible for the fall. they both transgressed and a battle of the sexes over it is not helpful. They both faced consequences, as they were both guilty.

Also, though WL officially stated that women can't interpret the bible and are more easily deceived, yet in the end, though he didn't say it of men, it amounts to the same for either gender. Everyone in the LC relies on the interpreted word, not their own flow, and recites WL's writings in the same way, and its called prophecying. I think a controlling group often targets women more openly as it is easy to do, but in the end the goal is to control all.

I spiced up my post here with a bit of sarcasm in parts which somewhat regret. I don't mean to have a go at anyone, except WL's doctrines. He did not make that one up himself though. It, and harsher interpretations of the implications of the fall for women, are found elsewhere in the Christian world.

I did think my crazy format to contradict those sexist interpretations to be an effective and unpredictable way to illustrate a point. To make one think! I am a bit outside the box though!!
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Also, though WL officially stated that women can't interpret the bible and are more easily deceived, yet in the end, though he didn't say it of men, it amounts to the same for either gender.
Then WL or his Blended acolytes should admit that Watchman Nee was also easily deceived by absorbing Jessie Penn-Lewis' thoughts and channeling it in his book "Spiritual Man", such that the publisher had to acknowledge this in the Second Edition Preface.

(Speaking of which, when Nee & Lee were found plagiarizing they said it was just a cultural misunderstanding, in China when you copy that's showing respect.[But of course there's no fallen human culture in the LC!])

And then Lee also was easily deceived, repeatedly citing Mary McDonough as an authoritative source for his "three parts of man" idea, and selling her book "God's Plan of Redemption" on his LSM website. In LC meetings, the names of these "lionesses of recovery" were intoned in reverence, yet moments later people would be informed that women couldn't handle the spiritual load.

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I think a controlling group often targets women more openly as it is easy to do, but in the end the goal is to control all.
The reason women are put down in the LC is to remove 50% of all potential rivals. They were used to get power (ME Barber, McDonough, Miss Elizabeth Fischbacher, Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Penn-Lewis, Dora Yu, Jean Guyon &c) but once power was held they were dumped because, well you know, the Bible says...

But if you google "Watchman Nee Elizabeth Fischbacher" or "Witness Lee Ruth Lee Peace Wang" you'll see how instrumental, essential even, they were to the rise of the Little Flock in mainland China.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:24 AM   #5
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

It was that woman that You gave me!
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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It was that woman You gave me!
In Adam's reply to God, we see the tragic result of disobeying God by eating the forbidden fruit in the garden. In these few brief words exposing his suddenly corrupted reasoning, Adam accuses both God and his wife, and excuses himself. (Romans 2.15) Meanwhile the fourth person in the narrative, the Sneaky Serpent, slides away at large. This brief story has thus been repeated in every relationship since.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:18 AM   #7
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Default Re:its ok to stand up for yourself

I realise that I have more to sayÖ.

Now letís consider the account of Judah and Tamar, his daughter in law. Found in Genesis chapter 38.

This is just my take on it. Iím not a biblical expert. Nor a theorist. Iím a real-life-ist perhaps. If there is such a thing.

Judah had 3 sons. The eldest married a young lady named Tamar. He did something evil that the bible doesnít give any detail of. God kills him. As is the custom, to protect the widow, the next son marries her, but also displeases God and God kills him too. Judah then withholds his third son from Tamar, scared that the same fate may befall him too, should he marry Tamar. He handles it by lying to her about it and just fails to honour both the custom and his word to her.

Next, having lost 2 of his 3 sons, if that werenít enough for poor Judah, his wife dies too. Thatís a lot for anyone to take.

Tamar is left, having done no wrong, in the situation where she will not be able to marry. Stuck at home with her dad, her prospects are grim. Yet she is not one to take injustice lying down. She has a plan.

Now, widows and orphans are the poorest people in the bible. Both NT and OT. I want to say this about prostitution. For most of history, and for most of the world, prostitution is another word for poverty. Poverty and desperation. I donít know if this prospect was one Tamar would have been forced into for her survival, its just an idea of mine. certainly she would have been stigmatised against any other prospect for marriage, and outside of male protection, womenís prospects werenít good.

So, in a very bold and tactical move, she covers her face, dresses in the attire of a prostitute, and makes herself available to Judah. Judah takes the bait pretty eagerly and Tamar becomes pregnant to him. When awareness of her pregnancy is brought to Judah, he is quick to pronounce judgment on her of the harshest kindÖto burn her to death! In spite of the fact that it had been overlooked that Judah had failed to provide his third son to her, as he should have. Its only when its proved that he is the cause of her pregnancy that Judah humbles himself and repents unconditionally.

When she gives birth there are 2 sons, so the blessing for Judah is he lost two sons, but after repenting, he gains 2 sons in place of the ones he lost. God restored. Like Job, who was blessed with more children after his ordeal.

What to make of this story?

1. With God, mercy triumphs over the Law. (the very middle scripture in the whole bible states just that!) Mercy is only available to the humble, humility comes with repentance, which comes with losing faith in ourselves as we see our own sinfulness. Just as David humbled himself before Nathan the prophet when confronted. Like Jacob as he spoke to pharaoh in his old age, acknowledging his failures, (in my opinion). The blessing comes with humility and repentance. Judah was pleasing to God when he repented.

2. God honoured Tamar in her effort to acquire justice in a system that was not gong to provide it to her. Iím sure He couldíve done it in a morally acceptable way if she had sought Him, she was a Canaanite and not familiar with the knowledge of God. Her treatment by her two husbands and father-in-law had possibly not helped her to understand God in a way that would have given her the best impression of the God they served! Tamar's plan was certainly practical and effective!!

This story again highlights that God can be validating the cause of the woman in a situation. But my point this time, is that regardless of your gender, when you are mistreated by those in authority, it is ok to stand up for yourself. Tamar did and God brought justice to her, regardless of the way she went about it, even! If she had been passive and helpless, she would have lived with the consequences of injustice against her, and she would have suffered for it.

Its also true that Judah benefitted from her assertiveness, and risk taking. He would not otherwise have learnt humility and righteousness either, which God was very pleased with him for. Jesusí genealogy includes them both. True righteousness comes with that humility. Getting away with wrongdoing harms the offender too, and robs them of the opportunity to be faced with their failure, correct it, and be made right with God and man.

If you are scared to stand up for yourself, I hope you can be strengthened by this account. Itís in the word of God, and its for people of all time, where justice is not being offered to those who are unprotected and mistreated. Take courage, take heart. Be bold when required and know that God is a God of justice. Pray lots always so that your heart and spirit are protected, and that you have guidance for the way to resist harm from others.

God is not a God of fairness, life is not fair, but justice and fairness are not the same thing. That can be a hard thing to accept. He promises justice to those who seek it from him, even though life has been unfair.

that's my little rant for today!
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

Curious, great post. Many were encouraged to see Jo and Greg Casteel stand up. It is not wrong to seek rightness. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His rightousness, and everything else will be added to you."
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Old 01-24-2020, 07:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Curious, great post. Many were encouraged to see Jo and Greg Casteel stand up. It is not wrong to seek rightness. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His rightousness, and everything else will be added to you."
If Luther, and others like Huss before him, hadn't "stood up," we wouldn't have had the so-called reformation!
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

Thankyou, guys for your support to my possibly unconventional take on that account. It prompts me to add the following:

If we think of Rahab the harlot, as a victim of abuse and exploitation, (which provides context for why she could hate the life she had to the point that she could betray her people and city so completely), then we can see that it can take only one abuse victim, taking action, to bring down a whole evil structure. The whole city was brought to the ground.

As well it brought her into a new life where she was married and able to live a dignified life, one deprived of her in jericho.
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Old Today, 10:15 AM   #11
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

Great posts, Curious, all of them.

I'm not sure whether to bring it up, but it's highly relevant to the thread title. What on earth do we do with these verses in 1 Timothy 2?

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

The reason I say I'm not sure whether to bring it up is because I know there have been many many many papers and articles and commentaries out there written about this verse and the meaning of "assume authority" in the original language, with no consensus, and I'm not sure we'll reach an "aha, this is what Paul meant!" conclusion here either.

I personally read the verses and cringe. It makes it sounds like females function on half a brain, and I know enough of them to know they don't. But the verses are there and thus have to be contended with. Any thoughts?
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Old Today, 10:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

I recently heard a brother on the radio speak on this, and he was quite strong on the idea that scripture forbids women to take a leadership role in place of a man. I kept expecting the censors to come on and shut him down at any time!

Look, I've been married to a strong woman for 22 years. She bought a franchise over 30 years ago that facilitates leadership develop to organizations. When she was in the corporate world with an international Fortune 500 company, she quickly rose to the VP level. (BTW - she says she wasn't even aware of a "Glass Ceiling" and said so once when interviewed by media - that's not what they were looking for!) She's a very strong goal setter & achiever and very high on the accountability scale (for herself and others).

I've learned so, so much from her over the years, in both the business and personal realms (I've been full-time in the family business for some time). However, while we consider ourselves equals, we also know there are key differences & strengths to each. While she usually shows a lot less emotion than many women, there is still a pretty strong emotional side. I think it might be the emotional part that can cause issues for women, and I wonder if that's not a characteristic that lends itself to deception at times. Women and men are certainly complimentary to each other (FYI: I might not show enough emotion at times), and I so very much appreciate this of my wife, and she of me.

But we all are coming from a place of being in the post-Christian world, where feminism has gone to an extreme and saturated the culture. So talk like this (e.g., in 1st Timothy) can actually sound alien to many now days. But God sees things clearly, and I've had a glimpse of what His household administration looks like. He has an administrative order (i.e., economy) to things, in order that His household might thrive, and so everyone gets what they need in an atmosphere of love. This household order is the Lord, then the husband/father, then the wife/mother, then the children. Again, this order is set by Him so that everyone in the household gets supplied with what they need, in an administration of love, caring (and yes, accountability).

So we can "kick against the goads" of this, but we will likely get hurt in the process! I'd be very interested to get the take of others - AND ESPECIALLY SISTERS!
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Old Today, 11:10 AM   #13
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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This household order is the Lord, then the husband/father, then the wife/mother, then the children. Again, this order is set by Him so that everyone in the household gets supplied with what they need, in an administration of love, caring (and yes, accountability). We can "kick against the goads" of this, but we will likely get hurt in the process!
I get this a lot in the fundamentalist Christian circles in which I swim, but I see it differently. I see the "women should submit themselves" to be in the same class as "slaves, obey your masters". Paul was writing in the context of his times. As the NT was being composed, Christians were no longer under religious compunctions. The only law was love. Love is the end of the law.

So what happens? People start to get wild. Women and children start to sass. Slaves say, "Hey, man, I'm free in Jesus Christ. Don't tell me what to do." Paul was saying, Remember the society in which you live and obey its constraints. We are still Greeks and Jews outwardly, still women and men, still slave and free. Don't take your freedom in Christ Jesus as an excuse to disorder.

Galatians 5:13 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."

Cf: 1 Cor 8:9 "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak."

And 1 Cor 9:19 "Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible."

Similar, Paul's "Women will be saved by child-bearing" doesn't mean that this is their path to salvation, but that the circumstance of being a mother, caring for a drooling and pooping infant will give them the opportunity to unselfishly love others, and not just care for their own things.

Similar to being a husband to a wife, or father of children. Or, if you're a slave, to be subject to an earthly master because there is one Master in heaven, and he put you in that spot. So serve Him with fear, as you accept your earthly role. Imagine if your master's a drunken lout, and you're a pious sober Christian. Yet, because of God's sovereign arrangement, you have to be subject to this one. Find God in your circumstances.

Back then, women couldn't vote, couldn't drive carriages around etc. They were less than the men, in society. Paul said, Accept that. You are great in the kingdom. If you're nothing on earth, so what.

(And they never got this simple point, in the LC. There, it was all about being a respecter of persons. Women were "great" when Nee needed to leverage them. Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Margaret Barber - lionesses of recovery.... then the worm turned, and 1 Tim 2 was invoked. What a ridiculous travesty. In the LC - Witness Lee was truly, transcendently great. Everyone else's greatness, or social position, was referent, or relative, to that singular point. Similarly, if you got into Harvard or Stanford you were on your way to greatness. Etc, etc. It was all about outward position. Either your place near Lee or your place in society.)

Paul and Jesus were very much alike in this manner - outward position was nothing. In fact it could be a terrible stumbling if one wasn't very careful.
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Old Today, 11:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Originally Posted by Curious View Post
Thankyou, guys for your support to my possibly unconventional take on that account. It prompts me to add the following:

If we think of Rahab the harlot, as a victim of abuse and exploitation, (which provides context for why she could hate the life she had to the point that she could betray her people and city so completely), then we can see that it can take only one abuse victim, taking action, to bring down a whole evil structure. The whole city was brought to the ground.

As well it brought her into a new life where she was married and able to live a dignified life, one deprived of her in jericho.
Here is what Witness Lee had to say about Rahab in the life study of Matthew #3:
K. Rahab
We proceed to Rahab (v. 5). Rahab was a harlot in Jericho (Josh. 2:1), a place cursed by God for eternity. Although she was a harlot in such a place, she became a grandmother of Christ. How could a harlot become a grandmother of Christ? In order to answer this question, we need to find the principles. The entire population of Jericho was destroyed except Rahab, her family, and her possessions. She was saved because she turned to God and God’s people (Josh. 6:22-23, 25; Heb. 11:31). After she turned to God and His people, she married Salmon, a leader in the army of the leading tribe of Judah and one of the men sent by Joshua to spy out Jericho. At that time, Salmon became acquainted with Rahab and, in a sense, saved her. Eventually, Rahab married him, and they brought forth a godly man named Boaz
.

Pretty amazing.

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Old Today, 11:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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I get this a lot in the fundamentalist Christian circles in which I swim, but I see it differently. I see the "women should submit themselves" to be in the same class as "slaves, obey your masters". Paul was writing in the context of his times. As the NT was being composed, Christians were no longer under religious compunctions. The only law was love. Love is the end of the law.
I agree with everything you said - so how do you "see it differently" from what I posted?

On further reading - you are saying they are in a slave class? Now I really need to hide for fear of collateral fallout! Actually, I think I do get your point . . . more to how things, legally, were viewed in their respective times, right?
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Last edited by Sons to Glory!; Today at 11:56 AM. Reason: Better understanding of what Aron wrote
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Old Today, 12:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Great posts, Curious, all of them.

I'm not sure whether to bring it up, but it's highly relevant to the thread title. What on earth do we do with these verses in 1 Timothy 2?

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

The reason I say I'm not sure whether to bring it up is because I know there have been many many many papers and articles and commentaries out there written about this verse and the meaning of "assume authority" in the original language, with no consensus, and I'm not sure we'll reach an "aha, this is what Paul meant!" conclusion here either.

I personally read the verses and cringe. It makes it sounds like females function on half a brain, and I know enough of them to know they don't. But the verses are there and thus have to be contended with. Any thoughts?
Below is a passage from God's Word to Women by Katherine Bushnell. She was a medical doctor and a Greek and Hebrew scholar and a Christian writer who lived from 1855-1946.

The passage below puts Paul's letter to Timothy (1 Tim. 2) into context. Her book was written in the format of numbered paragraphs. This passage is an edited (by me) version of paragraphs 325 and 326.

325. And, then, there was a peculiar peril to women, of which Paul would know, though Christian women might be ignorant of it. We will describe it in the words of Prof. Ramsay … “The ingenuity of Roman practice had in A.D. 31 perverted a humane scruple . . . into a reason for detestable brutality [criminal outrage] to the young daughter of Sejanus; . . . If such things were done to the innocent daughter of a Roman noble, why not to a Christian criminal?” … We know, then, that the situation which women Christians occupied under Nero was that of extreme peril, not only to life, but, as Church history shows, to virtue also.

326. To be sure, one should not carelessly assume that anything in the Bible is of exceptional and temporary import only. Yet we are now dealing with a personal letter, and advice given to one individual, and given in a time of exceptional peril and these facts ought to count for a great deal….

… We might have suffered a stagger to our faith in Paul’s tenderness and prudence, if not a stagger to our faith in the Bible, if, in a time of such supreme peril to Christian women, Paul could be represented as urging women to the front of the fight, and putting on them equal ecclesiastical responsibilities with men, when he knew that the cost to them would be far heavier than to men.

Rather, we find in Paul’s letter to Timothy precisely that sort of natural advice that a tender over-pastor under such conditions would give to one in charge of a church in his jurisdiction: “I should not allow a woman to teach or control a man. They (the Romans...not the women) are attacking our reputation for common decency, and we must meet it by separating the women from the men, and having them keep very quiet.” All history testifies that women did not shirk martyrdom for Christ’s sake, but Paul says: “However willing they may be, I do not permit it. We men must take the lead: …

Thus might the Apostle, who, ten years before, wrote to the Corinthians about women “praying and prophesying,” and to the Galatians about the same time, to the effect that there could be no distinctions as regards sex in the Christian body, now consistently write after this manner to Timothy, for he must have regard for the situation under Nero, and the relations of Christian to the social order about them. It seems to us far more sensible, then, to ascribe Paul’s precautionary advice to the then existent perilous times, especially for women, than to go back to Eve, or to creation to find a reason.


The context of Paul writing a personal letter of advice to care for the health and safety of women who were in extreme danger and in under Timothy's pastoral care meets the need of the day. It also explains the seeming contradictions in Paul's writings wherein he is supportive of women, yet cares for them in a practical way to keep them from harm.

Hence the verses: 1 Tim. 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think it's totally believable. Hope this helps...
Nell
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Old Today, 12:56 PM   #17
aron
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
... to how things, legally, were viewed in their respective times, right?
Correct. If we said, "A woman's place is in the home" that would match public sentiment even 65 years ago. Certainly 150 years ago. So, in one era that might not be 'unspiritual' to say, or affirm. But today it would be seriously regressive, and called out, and rightly so. Times have changed.

Paul was saying, "Don't let your freedom in Christ overturn current societal constraints." Whether or not those constraints are equitable, or eternal (immutable and unchanging) are not the issue. Don't distract people from the message of Jesus' resurrection. We got freed from eternal death. Don't grumble over temporal matters. Don't throw off societal yokes because you believe in Jesus Christ.

Here's another way to look at it. Look at Jesus with women. He never, that I can see, overturned societal constraints of his time. Yet he was completely transcendent - his interactions with people, including (and especially[!]) women - were transformative. The human person Jesus took the petty, modest and mundane human interactions, even within their outward limitations and humiliations, and grew something so precious there.

Whether you're woman or man, slave or free, Greek or Jew or Scythian, is beside the point. You may have to live within the dictates of that "package" but in that "package" you can find something transcendent. There's a person waiting to meet you, there.
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Old Today, 01:34 PM   #18
Trapped
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

What about Paul's reference to Eve being deceived who was not in that time and place and same societal constraints? In other words, what is Paul's point in bringing up Eve? That's the part that makes me cringe.

How do we know when to apply "that time/place/society" versus "for all time" to any given portion of scripture? All the epistles were to certain parameters of people and situations, and yet we follow them today.

These are head-scratcher questions on my part, not belligerent ones.
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Old Today, 03:43 PM   #19
Nell
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Default Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived'

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Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
What about Paul's reference to Eve being deceived who was not in that time and place and same societal constraints? In other words, what is Paul's point in bringing up Eve? That's the part that makes me cringe.

How do we know when to apply "that time/place/society" versus "for all time" to any given portion of scripture? All the epistles were to certain parameters of people and situations, and yet we follow them today.

These are head-scratcher questions on my part, not belligerent ones.
Bushnell believes the verses should be punctuated and translated as follows: (She's a Greek and Hebrew scholar so she's probably qualified!)

1 Tim. 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived [when he sinned], but the woman [having] first been thoroughly deceived [became involved] in his transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, [i.e., the bearing of Jesus Christ] if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


Adam was older and more mature than Eve. When it's said that Adam was not deceived when he sinned, that means...he sinned willfully. He knew what he was doing.

Eve was deceived...that means she didn't have full realization of what she was doing...unlike Adam who willfully sinned.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me (deceived me), and I did eat.

So, Adam blamed God. There is no record that Adam confessed his sin in this passage. Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't repent at some point, but there is no record here, and his behavior doesn't indicate contrition on his part.

God said to Eve: What have you done? Eve admitted she was deceived and she admitted to eating what God told them not to eat. She confessed. I don’t know for sure, but if you admit you are deceived, it must be that you are no longer deceived and you understand that what you did was wrong, but that’s my thought. It makes sense to me.

Which is worse, being deceived, or willful sin and blaming God and the "woman you gave me"? She did confess. She acted on a precursor of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Adam didn't. His behavior was cowardly.

I don't know for sure why Paul brought Eve's name into the record here, but in this context, I don't think he wasn't blaming her for being deceived. Rather, he honored her confession. Maybe Paul wanted to underscore his point that the women of the church needed protection rather than pushing them to the front lines to be assaulted by Nero.

After the woman confessed, God turned to the serpent and cursed him; he turned to the woman and in effect, blessed her. Then God turned to the man and booted him from the garden.

An interesting verse...written by Paul: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

...death reigned from Adam (not Adam and Eve, not Eve). ...Adam's transgression...not Eve's. Eve may have sinned first, but Adam was held accountable.

So, maybe we should also discuss whether men are more given to willful sin. Whaddyatink?

Nell

Last edited by Nell; Today at 06:44 PM.
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