Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Writings of Former Members

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-20-2018, 06:50 AM   #1
afazio
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Question afazio - Spiritual Authority

Thanks, Steve! This is a very valuable labor of love on your part. It IS helpful!

I did not previously know about Nee's change in emphasis in 1948. Wow! How could he have been SOOO deceived? It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything. What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS" and "from things strangled"? What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother), and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"), and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem. And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

What's even more interesting is that this same error is being perpetuated today in Christendom as, I believe, the origin of "the great apostasy" of the end time. That apostasy is being proliferated by Bill Johnson, Che Ahn and other phoney baloney "apostles" to take over Christianity. It has proliferated worldwide and has infiltrated more of Christianity that is free of it. It originally hid (as leaven in the loaf---almost invisible though endemic) as the New Apostolic Reformation (N.A.R.) however, it has changed its name (in order to remain surreptitious and difficult to identify) to H.I.M. Harvest International Ministry (including Hillsong music, etc. and everything else related to Bethel Church).

This idea of the "apostles" RULING over churches is absurd! Even the true Apostle Paul---who either directly or indirectly raised up the churches he was ministering to---had no DIRECT authority over those churches. The local ELDERS had the authority! Paul's influence was only spiritual, and was subject to whether or not the elders would receive him and his ministry. They were under no obligation to do so (even though Paul spoke strongly to his "babies" in Corinth, even that was subject to the acceptance of the elders in the church there).

That is sort of like me, as a grandmother, exercising "authority" over my grandchildren. I DO, generally, exercise authority over my grandchildren. However, I can only do that under the auspices of my children. I have one son with whom my authority is pretty much unquestioned. I have another son where my authority over his children is much more limited
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:53 AM   #2
afazio
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default afazio - Spiritual Authority

I forgot to add that it was the brothers in Jerusalem who insisted that Paul revert to the OT dispensation of putting himself and his proteges under the Nazarite vow (or some sort of then-modern facsimile that the church in Jerusalem thought would sanctify them for "the work"). (I wonder if Nee would have espoused that his current workers promulgate THAT through the churches.) Let alone that the vision of the new man was exclusive to Paul (who, of course, was NOT---in any way, shape or form) a "Jerusalemite"! In fact, that is the Paul's labor in Galatians 1 and 2----to separate himself and his work from being identified with "Jerusalem" in any way AND be identified with God alone!

Paul----certainly NOT James----had "the heavenly vision! He even referred to it as "MY gospel." And Peter even confessed that the things Paul said were "difficult to understand" and that the "unlearned" and "unstable" (I would include here James and the saints under him in Jerusalem) might "distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Perhaps Nee's confusion in his later years was a reason the Lord removed him (by imprisonment) from leadership over so many churches (just as He removed John the Baptist when he became a "confusing" competitor on the scene (John's "disciples" challenging "Jesus disciples---when, since Jesus was ministering, there should no longer BE "John's disciples) as opposed to only a herald (a "voice in the wilderness") POINTING TO Jesus.

And I won't even BEGIN to address the confusion of Lee and the LC cult! Amen to the fact that anyone who has touched Lee's cult needs a HUGE dose of New Testament economy! The New Covenant includes the edict that "You shall NOT teach every man his neighbor and every man his fellow servant to know the Lord, for ALL SHALL KNOW ME---from the least to the greatest of them!" Thank God, NONE OF US----regardless of our assumed "stature" can discern "the anointing" or the "leading of the Holy Spirit" for ANY other (from the least to the greatest among us). We can teach the truth of the Scriptures; however, we CANNOT determine for another HOW God is leading. So, the way "delegated authority" is taught and practiced in the LC is totally a violation of "God's New Testament ECONOMY." The examples that Nee used of OT figures such as Noah and Saul are NOT examples of NT leadership but ARE examples of CHRIST as God's ANOINTED. NT leadership is servant leadership!

Of course, there IS church government and church discipline, when necessary for specific, clearly identified SINS (NOT including differing ministries or views that are not clearly ABERRANT to the truth or the faith). "Quarantine" because of dissenting views that are taken in love and to sharpen iron in the truth of the Word of God is MORE than overreaching, it is SINFUL on the part of the church (or, in the case of the LC, the CULT).

Also, spiritual authority is NOT "delegated" authority (as is taught by both Nee and Lee). Spiritual authority is FUNCTIONAL authority. The difference between the two is that "delegated authority" is authority which is posited in a specific person----regardless of that person's condition----IN THE ABSENCE of the original authority. That is to say, if a husband leaves his wife in charge of the children while he is at work, the wife is solely responsible for the children (REGARDLESS of her CONDITION) during that time. That "authority" has been "delegated" to her by her husband. (Or, you might think of parents delegating their authority to their chosen babysitter while they go out for the evening.)

FUNCTIONAL authority is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! Functional authority is authority which an agent possesses BECAUSE OF his own personal gift. It is fully contingent on that gift REMAINING with him/in him in order to serve. So, that agent's CONDITION is paramount in maintaining his authority. For instance, in a movie theater or a dance, if a person has a heart attack, the "authority" of a medical doctor who may simply have been a patron suddenly comes into action. Or, if someone speaks a "foreign" language in a situation, the "authority" of someone who is bilingual and can translate suddenly come into action. Similarly, spiritual authority is manifest among saints by those who perform in spiritual ways (elders in that respective congregation). If, however, the appointed elder is, for some reason, operating in his flesh, he is not functionally, at that moment, truly "in authority," since his "authority" is not POSITIONAL but functional. Similarly, a medical doctor, because he is designated as such, can fail in his "gift" and still remain recognized. However, if he fails TOO heinously, he becomes disbarred. However, a father (of children) is a delegated authority (delegated so by God in nature). Whatever his condition, he continues to be a father. He has been "appointed" in his person, irrespective of any gift.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 09:21 AM   #3
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Thank you afazio for this comprehensive treatise on spiritual authority! If I'm not mistaken, you authored a little booklet regarding this matter during the late 1980s turmoil. I still have a copy of that booklet somewhere among all my papers.

Please consider registering for the forum if you have not already done so. You can simply send an email requesting registration to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com - Be sure to include your desired UserName (afazio will work just fine)

-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 09:45 AM   #4
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
I did not previously know about Nee's change in emphasis in 1948. Wow! How could he have been SOOO deceived? It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything.
Whether it be ...
  • The Judaizers "of James" during the first century
  • Bishops in Rome during post-apostolic centuries
  • John Darby of the 1840's
  • Watchman Nee of the 1940's
  • Witness Lee of the 1970's and 80's
  • The Blendeds of the 2000's
A few things were absolutely identical -- gifted leaders rising up from within (Acts 20.30) drawing others to themselves employing self-assumed spiritual authority to rule the churches of God resulting in a horrible loss of spiritual blessing and fruitfulness. In each case these "authorities" used errant and perverted teachings of distorted oneness to lord it over the church of God.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 09:48 AM   #5
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Be sure to include your desired UserName (afazio will work just fine)
-
The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.

But thanks afazio, for putting into words what my spirit felt when I got the boot - for objecting to Lee being God's authority on the earth.

I do wish that you would join up.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 11:09 AM   #6
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS"
I understand "meat sacrificed to Idols" to be something similar to a Pittsburgh Steelers Jersey, or a bumper sticker supporting the Boston Celtics. You are promoting an idol and that could have a number of negative impacts on others. Even if you yourself are not "an idol worshipper".

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
and "from things strangled"?
I understand this as the "ethical treatment of animals". Yes, you can raise animals for food and kill them, but do it in a humane way and don't support those who are cruel and unethical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother),
I believe James has fully and completely addressed this in his epistle and has thoroughly repented for any negative impact that had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"),
I think his point was not that Peter and John and James were not pillars, but that our faith is not rooted or based in man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem.
Further emphasis on how our faith is not based on man. Remember WL talked about how different members were more sanctified than others and that being in their presence would affect your growth. I heard this kind of talk often in Houston, particularly from Ray Graver and MC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).
I think this falls under the "if in anything you are otherwise minded the Spirit will reveal this to you".
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 12:02 PM   #7
recoveringCK
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 23
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
Thanks, Steve! This is a very valuable labor of love on your part. It IS helpful!

That is sort of like me, as a grandmother, exercising "authority" over my grandchildren. I DO, generally, exercise authority over my grandchildren. However, I can only do that under the auspices of my children. I have one son with whom my authority is pretty much unquestioned. I have another son where my authority over his children is much more limited
To what degree do the elders in a city have biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over the believers in the city or the church?
recoveringCK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 12:12 PM   #8
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveringCK View Post
To what degree do the elders in a city have biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over the believers in the city or the church?
Only the Lord Jesus, our Redeemer and Savior, has biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over us. All others who attempt to "rule over us" or "draw us to themselves" are lording it over us, and the Bible repeatedly condemns this.

Proper and healthy Christian leaders should be ministers, shepherds, and servants to the children of God.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 12:21 PM   #9
recoveringCK
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 23
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

The hierarchical control system of the scribes and pharisees was not intended to be imitated but avoided.
recoveringCK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 01:16 PM   #10
Nell
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 862
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.
....
What does this mean?
Nell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 01:31 PM   #11
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveringCK View Post
Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?
Lee brought it from China. He knew what he was doing, and cast aside any that got in his way.

He was going to be considered God's authority, God's mouthpiece, on the earth, and if you didn't fall in line under HIM, you were out ; as in excommunications and quarantines ; and lawsuits against cult claimers.

Speaking of cults. China has a long history of cults, some that have resulted in millions of deaths. That's why they're so hard on religious groups.

And I think that Nee and Lee syncretised that cult mentality with Christianity ... and out came the local church ... not that different from Eastern Lightning ... but with a different personality cult leader.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 02:16 PM   #12
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by afazio View Post
It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything. What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS" and "from things strangled"? What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother), and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"), and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem. And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).
Easy now afazio.

Folks in these parts don't take too kindly to finding shortcomings with James.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 02:50 PM   #13
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Drake I'm sure that afazio is quite aware that Witness Lee taught that one of the writers of the Divine Revelation was "DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION". (This outrageous statement should have got him removed from teaching vacation bible school, much, much less being the sole teacher of an entire Christian movement) afazio is probably also aware that you believe that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth while he was alive. afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 03:43 PM   #14
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Drake I'm sure that afazio is quite aware that Witness Lee taught that one of the writers of the Divine Revelation was "DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION". (This outrageous statement should have got him removed from teaching vacation bible school, much, much less being the sole teacher of an entire Christian movement) afazio is probably also aware that you believe that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth while he was alive. afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
-
If afazios booklet is that good then post it here. Let's have a look.

Now back to James.... this forum rents it's clothes and throws dust in the air because Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James. Afazio throws James under the bus citing him as the responsible source for every bad thing that happened in the infant church and this same forum cheers and applauds her for incredible insight and clarity of mind.

The difference? Afazio wrote a little booklet speaking against Brother Lee. For that the forum awards her a lifetime platinum membership.

Looky here.....The Jerusalem principle is not about James. It's about how the Lord used a different model for evangelizing the Jews around Israel than the one He deployed to evangelize Gentiles far and wide. A careful reading of Acts with an open mind will show just that.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 03:43 PM   #15
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
-
Where do we find that little booklet? I might not pray-read it, but would like to read it.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 03:58 PM   #16
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
..Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James.
Drake, do you think we're all stupid here? Witness Lee said NO SUCH THING. HE SAID JAMES WAS DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION. PERIOD. Any qualifications put on such a heretical statement are meaningless and worthless. Kind of like when you say you are "becoming God in life and nature....but not in the Godhead".

Here's another outrageous, ignorant statement by Lee:
"The book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament."
Again, Lee just couldn't help himself. He exposed his utter ignorance and disrespect for the Word of God. How could the the book of James be "devoid of the main items in the New Testament" WHEN IT IS PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is part of the reason that many former members, and even some keen observers of the Local Church of Witness Lee claim that LC members think of Lee's teachings as equal to or EVEN ABOVE the Word of God. It's sick. It's pathetic. It's dangerous. It's sad. May God have mercy.
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 03:58 PM   #17
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
If afazios booklet is that good then post it here. Let's have a look.

Now back to James.... this forum rents it's clothes and throws dust in the air because Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James. Afazio throws James under the bus citing him as the responsible source for every bad thing that happened in the infant church and this same forum cheers and applauds her for incredible insight and clarity of mind.
I think I have been every bit as strong and favorable to Jame's ministry as anyone on this forum, but I don't see where Afazio "throws him under the bus". The reality is that Peter had a major failing, Paul had a major failing and James also had a major failing. Each failing became critical to their respective ministry. Paul saw the Body of Christ as a result, Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both Jews and Gentiles as a result, and James saw how to deal with the danger of a false prophet.

Paul said this:
14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

James gives us much more detail on exactly how we could do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The difference? Afazio wrote a little booklet speaking against Brother Lee. For that the forum awards her a lifetime platinum membership.
I have not read the booklet and it, along with anything Afazio has said concerning WL has not had the slightest effect on my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Looky here.....The Jerusalem principle is not about James. It's about how the Lord used a different model for evangelizing the Jews around Israel than the one He deployed to evangelize Gentiles far and wide. A careful reading of Acts with an open mind will show just that.

Drake
Yes, I agree that the discussion on this forum dismissing the "Jerusalem principle" has not been helpful or enlightening to me. I do agree that there is a rush to condemn any teaching that WL gave.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 04:04 PM   #18
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.

But thanks afazio, for putting into words what my spirit felt when I got the boot - for objecting to Lee being God's authority on the earth.

I do wish that you would join up.
Afazio is NOT a speech disorder Harold! You obviously have no Awareness of the meaning of Afazio. If she feels like explaining, she will. It's not my place to do so.
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
countmeworthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 04:11 PM   #19
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Afazio is NOT a speech disorder Harold! You obviously have no Awareness of the meaning of Afazio. If she feels like explaining, she will. It's not my place to do so.
I think Awareness meant aphasia, but he must have a sleight speech impediment or sticky keyboard.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:10 PM   #20
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

It's not James only, but even Paul got carried away. Here is his testimony in Acts 22: "I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him."

What!? Paul!? Baptised by a devout man according to the law!? What happened to God's economy, Paul? What happened to faith alone? Where's the dispensing of the processed Trinity in Acts 22:12?

Or, Acts 26: "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me"

What!? Do works!? Paul!? What happened to faith alone?

And Peter and John, going up to the temple for the hour of daily prayer in Acts 3:1? Don't they know God is done with the physical temple? Never mind that in their natural human concepts they healed a man, and thousands got saved. It's vanity, I tell you. Vanity and fallen human concepts.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:10 PM   #21
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Drake, do you think we're all stupid here? Witness Lee said NO SUCH THING. HE SAID JAMES WAS DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION. PERIOD. Any qualifications put on such a heretical statement are meaningless and worthless. Kind of like when you say you are "becoming God in life and nature....but not in the Godhead".

Here's another outrageous, ignorant statement by Lee:
"The book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament."
Again, Lee just couldn't help himself. He exposed his utter ignorance and disrespect for the Word of God. How could the the book of James be "devoid of the main items in the New Testament" WHEN IT IS PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is part of the reason that many former members, and even some keen observers of the Local Church of Witness Lee claim that LC members think of Lee's teachings as equal to or EVEN ABOVE the Word of God. It's sick. It's pathetic. It's dangerous. It's sad. May God have mercy.
-
UntoHim,


Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament. If it is so obvious then you can show what Brother Lee missed in the book of James in less time than it takes you to craft a post filled with heat but absent of light.

By the way, there is no difference between the definition of "God's economy" and the "main items of the New Testament". Take your pick. If you think there is then you never understood or perhaps forgot what Brother's Nee and Lee taught concerning God's economy in the New Testament. It's is not heretical to assess James' letter as devoid of the main items of the New Testament or God's economy anymore then it is heretical for afazio to critique James/Jerusalem as causing problems in the infant church. It may seem different if you hold a double standard.

Still, I'd like to see that little booklet afazio wrote. Please post it here.

Thx,
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:28 PM   #22
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
What!? Paul!? Baptised by a devout man according to the law!? What happened to God's economy, Paul? What happened to faith alone?
Welcome back aron.

I believe these verses concerning Paul's conversion reveal that God is accommodating to our needs.. He facilitates or ushers us into His salvation, purpose, and ministry based on who we are or what we are. He sends the right ministers based on where we are at. He cares for our needs even if our concepts are not accurate according to the truth. His letters to the churches address each cihurch according to the situation in that place. His call to overcome is tailored to each church. He rebukes and comforts, admonishes and encourages each one accordingly.

That the Lord would send Ananias, a devout man according to law, to baptize Saul demonstrates His loving kindness toward us. It was actually this very act that opened Paul's eyes to see the reality of the Body of Christ that he wrote so much about about later.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:29 PM   #23
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
UntoHim,


Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament.
Thx,
Drake
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5636

I wrote 63 pages on this and posted it as a Pdf. You can find it at this thread.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:35 PM   #24
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
That the Lord would send Ananias, a devout man according to law, to baptize Saul demonstrates His loving kindness toward us. It was actually this very act that opened Paul's eyes to see the reality of the Body of Christ that he wrote so much about about later.
So we wink and nod benignly, or remonstrate against hypocrisy and failure, depending on its suitability to our current arguments.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:37 PM   #25
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

ZNP,

You make some reasonable observations and points in #17.

thanks
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:40 PM   #26
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5636

I wrote 63 pages on this and posted it as a Pdf. You can find it at this thread.

Thanks, I will have a look at it.


Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:42 PM   #27
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
So we wink and nod benignly, or remonstrate against hypocrisy and failure, depending on its suitability to our current arguments.
Sorry Aron,

I see neither hypocrisy or failure by the Lord sending a man devout in the law to baptize Saul regardless of the current argument.So perhaps I am not following your chain of thought.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:48 PM   #28
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament.
Paul tells us, in his treatise on resurrection in 1 Cor 15, that James met with the Lord. This is more than we can say for Witness Lee, or you or I for that matter. Why so eager to drum a witness off the page? And what of those naive ones who included James in the canon? Or was it merely, as WL said, to show us how not to think? If you start parsing the Bible thus, at some point you have to look away, or you end up with a rather small Bible. Then, the only assurance you have, is that you know more than anyone else, including the witnesses of the Bible, and those who assembled it together. Some hope, that.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:51 PM   #29
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
perhaps I am not following your chain of thought.
perhaps you are selectively following Witness Lee's thoughts.

James was wrong to hold forth on the "thousands who were zealous for the law" in Jerusalem? Why the double standard? Why do Paul and Ananias get a pass?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 05:57 PM   #30
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveringCK View Post
Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

The hierarchical control system of the scribes and pharisees was not intended to be imitated but avoided.
Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:02 PM   #31
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Paul tells us, in his treatise on resurrection in 1 Cor 15, that James met the Lord. This is more than we can say for Witness Lee, or you or I for that matter. Why so eager to drum a witness off the page? And what of those naive ones who included James in the canon? Or was it merely, as WL said, to show us how not to think? If you start parsing the Bible thus, at some point you have to look away, or you end up with a rather small Bible. Then, the only assurance you have, is that you know more than anyone else, including the witnesses of the Bible, and those who assembled it together. Some hope, that.
okay... but do you agree with afazio that James/Jerusalem caused problems in the infant church? You seem to arguing against that notion... and you seem to be saying the James had a one on one with the Lord and because of that he could not possibly be devoid of matters related to the New Testament.... I think that is what you are alluding to.

But I think you have an erroneous idea about the Bible. You seem to think everything in it is to be regarded as positive. Every author is articulating what is right. Rather, I look at it differently, I think every word of the Bible is God-breathed... for our correction, reproof, etc. and that would necessarily include things that are incorrect as a contrast.. So my Bible does not shrink at all and is the same size as yours... I presume yours to also have 66 books end to end.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:02 PM   #32
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I think I have been every bit as strong and favorable to Jame's ministry as anyone on this forum, but I don't see where Afazio "throws him under the bus".

The reality is that Peter had a major failing, Paul had a major failing and James also had a major failing. Each failing became critical to their respective ministry.

Paul saw the Body of Christ as a result, Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both Jews and Gentiles as a result, and James saw how to deal with the danger of a false prophet.
Great points, ZNP.

Every one in the LC and without needs to hear this.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:13 PM   #33
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
UntoHim,

Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping ...
Sometimes false teachers, false prophets, and false posters need a little chest thumping!

And with a guy like Drake coming from the program which exalts public exhibitions of fist-pumping, it just sounds a little disingenuous.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:18 PM   #34
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
okay... but do you agree with afazio that James/Jerusalem caused problems in the infant church? You seem to arguing against that notion... and you seem to be saying the James had a one on one with the Lord and because of that he could not possibly be devoid of matters related to the New Testament.... I think that is what you are alluding to.
The argument in Acts 15 was over imposing the law of Moses on the gentiles. Nothing was said about the impropriety of Jesus-believing Jews in Jerusalem following the law. Or the gentiles abroad somehow had the right to impose gentile-ness on those in Jerusalem? Are we reading that into Acts 15? It doesn't say that.

And why the judgement on James but not Ananias? The phraseology appears identical.

It's not about the law, it's about external human control, which becomes a law unto itself. Surely we who passed through the LC get that! We didn't survive 'the ministry' for nothing!

I concede that it's possible that James was deficient in revelation. It's even more likely, however, that WL was deficient. We should always keep that in mind and give his writings the same critical eye that he gave scripture-writers. Even more so, I daresay.

We have plenty of evidence that WL was blinded by self-interest, cultural bias, etc.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 06:28 PM   #35
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
But I think you have an erroneous idea about the Bible. You seem to think everything in it is to be regarded as positive. Every author is articulating what is right. Rather, I look at it differently, I think every word of the Bible is God-breathed... for our correction, reproof, etc. and that would necessarily include things that are incorrect as a contrast.. So my Bible does not shrink at all and is the same size as yours... I presume yours to also have 66 books end to end.
I get your argument about the Bible, but the Bible doesn't make that argument about itself as a corpus, that it is incorrect in some teachings. Lee did, you do, but not the Bible about itself.

What happens with this line of thought is that one has to arbitrarily abandon it at some point, or else Paul, Ananias, Peter and John get censured for being void of revelation also. So one makes the argument selectively, and hopes no one notices when it tails off.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 07:13 PM   #36
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
perhaps you are selectively following Witness Lee's thoughts.

James was wrong to hold forth on the "thousands who were zealous for the law" in Jerusalem? Why the double standard? Why do Paul and Ananias get a pass?
I think the word "wrong" is far too general. The idea of walking worthily of the Lord is in both the NT and OT. Denying the works of the flesh is also in the NT. The term "zealous for the law" can also have a psalm 119 connotation. So there is no doubt, having read Acts and Galatians, that James was in error, but being happy that there are thousands zealous for the law is merely the tip of the iceberg.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 07:23 PM   #37
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I get your argument about the Bible, but the Bible doesn't make that argument about itself as a corpus, that it is incorrect in some teachings. Lee did, you do, but not the Bible about itself.

What happens with this line of thought is that one has to arbitrarily abandon it at some point, or else Paul, Ananias, Peter and John get censured for being void of revelation also. So one makes the argument selectively, and hopes no one notices when it tails off.
But... I’m not concerned where truth leads... all is scripture is God breathed.. I have not abandoned a single verse and no inclination whatsoever to do so. The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings. We see it in the Old an New Testaments. We see it in the gospels and we see it the letters. It’s all documented there and that record lends more credence to the idea that the Bible reveals both the divine truths and the erroneous human thoughts ... all contained therein. Why did the Lord Jesus refer to Peter as Satan? Why is it recorded there? Why did Paul shame Peter? Why is it recorded there? Why did all in Asia abandon Paul? Why is it recorded there?

So, there we find some of the evidence in the record of Holy Writ that not everything in it is divine truth.... that is why the NT charges us to cut straight the Word of God. If everything in it is divine truth then what is there to cut? If all is to be regarded equally then why does the writer of Hebrews say that when Moses is read a veil lies on their heart? Because all is not equal in the canon of scripture. The law is good but it cannot enable us to live an overcoming life according to His complete salvation.

Now, I ask you the question you asked me to wit now I ask you to present as thorough a response as I have above. On what scriptural basis do you assert that the Bible only reveals and expresses divine truth, all equal, and all to be followed and adhered to with the same weight? Where does the Bible make the claims about itself that you make about it?

Thx
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 07:29 PM   #38
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
...there is no doubt, having read Acts and Galatians, that James was in error, but being happy that there are thousands zealous for the law is merely the tip of the iceberg.
And Ananias, being equally zealous for the law, and attested to by the law-keeping Jews, wasn't also in error? Why did Paul cite this status approvingly before his accusers? Was Paul also carried away a la Galatians chapter 2?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 07:38 PM   #39
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The Bible is chock full of people expressing wrong ideas. . .On what scriptural basis do you assert that the Bible only reveals and expresses divine truth, all equal, and all to be followed and adhered to with the same weight? Where does the Bible make the claims you make about it?
1. Witness Lee's teaching is chock-full of errors, as this website makes amply plain. We should keep this in mind as we examine his critiques of James, and others.

2. The Bible makes plain what is revelatory and what is error. No need of a special apostolic decoder ring.

3. I never said "all equal". I'm saying that some teachers like WL dismiss scripture like James & Psalms on the flimsiest of pretexts. The scripture itself doesn't make these judgments, yet WL boldly does so. Shouldn't we be good 'bereans' and challenge whether this is so, and if so, on what merits?

To ignore scripture is peril. Leaf through your RecV, sometime. Page after page of Psalms with nary a note, even a cross-reference, even when dozens lie waiting to be found. Then ask yourself which has more value to you- the Bible or the ministry of its exposition? And, what basis do you have that the writers and speakers of the NT, starting with Jesus, held such a view? I see no evidence for it in the NT, rather the opposite. Yet the exposition of WL imposes it on the text.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 08:03 PM   #40
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
To ignore scripture is peril. Leaf through your RecV, sometime. Page after page of Psalms with nary a note, even a cross-reference, even when dozens lie waiting to be found. Then ask yourself which has more merit to you- the Bible or the ministry of its exposition? And, what basis do you have that the writers and speakers of the NT, starting with Jesus, held such a view? I see no evidence for it in the NT, rather the opposite. Yet the exposition of WL imposes it on the text.
Aron, perhaps the task of writing footnotes for the Psalms falls to someone the Lord inspires. Is that you? Exactly, how many footnotes have you written on the Psalms? As many as Brother Lee wrote? I’m not trying to embarrass you... but instead of criticizing Brother Lee for not writing more footnotes to Psalms than he did... then why don’t you do it instead of sitting on a quasi Internet Bema and passing judgment? What if you are held to the same standard as you hold Brother Lee to on number of footnotes written at the judgement that matters most....will you pass that exam?

But, you still have not shown us where the Bible states about itself what you think it should say. Where?

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 08:57 PM   #41
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings....
Very well then...Now, pray tell, just who can we trust to have the spiritual insight, knowledge and authority to let us know which part(s) of the Bible are , "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure", etc? By what objective, external, measurable standards can we accept or reject a teacher who claims for himself/herself such insight, knowledge and authority?

Let me just throw out an example that comes to mind. What if somebody says that he is the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth? Does that qualify him to let us know which parts of the Bible are "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure"? What if he says he picked up the mantle of some other fellow who claimed that he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth? Does that work for you?

What if this person claims that everyone else has been wrong for hundreds and thousands of years and that he/she has got it right? What if they claim for themselves the position of "apostle of the first kind"? Does that give them the right and authority to dictate to everyone which parts of the Bible are "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure"?

Let's put this teaching to the eyes, ears and nose test, shall we?
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 10:30 PM   #42
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Very well then...Now, pray tell, just who can we trust to have the spiritual insight, knowledge and authority to let us know which part(s) of the Bible are , "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure", etc? By what objective, external, measurable standards can we accept or reject a teacher who claims for himself/herself such insight, knowledge and authority?

Let me just throw out an example that comes to mind. What if somebody says that he is the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth? Does that qualify him to let us know which parts of the Bible are "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure"? What if he says he picked up the mantle of some other fellow who claimed that he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth? Does that work for you?

What if this person claims that everyone else has been wrong for hundreds and thousands of years and that he/she has got it right? What if they claim for themselves the position of "apostle of the first kind"? Does that give them the right and authority to dictate to everyone which parts of the Bible are "expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure"?

Let's put this teaching to the eyes, ears and nose test, shall we?
-
Those are fair questions UntoHim and I am glad you asked them.

I will give you my quick answer and then chew on your post for awhile longer. With this response I don't expect to convince you but felt to answer your questions based on my personal experience.

I'd say that there are three validations for spiritual insight, knowledge, and authority. The three are : an objective aspect according to the scripture, a subjective aspect according to the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, and a third aspect via the confirmation of the Body of Christ.

Yet, just because a minister, no matter who, claims to have spiritual insight, knowledge, or authority does not mean that they do. In a sense that is irrelevant. Anybody can claim, and many do, that they have some or all of those characteristics but do not in reality.

So, first objectively... I believe spiritual insight, knowledge, and authority are validated by a complete and thorough handling of the Word of God not leaving out anything in scripture nor adding in anything outside of scripture and within the lines of scriptural (not traditional) orthodoxy. Further evidenced by a workman cutting straight the word of God beginning to end... front to back, and not running from or glossing over difficult passages or teachings or doctrines. Also, the ability to minister both comfort and correction from the Word of God in a straightforward non political way.

Second, subjectively I trust in the leading of the Holy Spirit to confirm the first point above. Without the Spirit's working in a minister and without the confirmation of that working in me by the Spirit's leading then I do not assess that the insight, knowledge, and authority are necessarily valid. I look to the Lord for that inward confirmation and He has always been faithful. Through the ministered word I am drawn to a deeper consecration to our Lord and He gains new ground in me.. I may yield to him in places I held back before. This is the Lord's confirming inwardly what is being spoken outwardly.

The third aspect, the confirmation of the Body is a little harder to discern but there have been times when through the speaking of a member of the Body fresh light is revealed and the Lord visits in a sweet way confirming the minister's spoken word.....

Therefore, in my experience, Brother's Nee and Lee opened the Word of God in the most comprehensive and insightful way .. and I have yet to find such comprehensive exposition of the Bible anywhere else. I do not mean to say that they are the only ministers, nor do I mean there is no insight, knowledge, or authority found elsewhere. I have a library with hundreds of authors and almost always have a book by other authors within grasp. But I can't deny that this ministry has the Lord's blessing in the outward aspect of Bible truths.

Secondly, I came out of the Pentecostal world and I had some "vibrant" experiences of the Holy Spirit there,, but the insight and knowledge and frankly "fireworks" the Lord shined in me while listening, praying, or in fellowship in this ministry was and is at times unspeakable. Whether I am alone or in a meeting I am often just blown away. Cannot help but love Him more and more. He just speaks to me inwardly, shining, working, convicting, comforting when I am enjoying Him in this ministry.

And lastly, there are so many little Ananias' that just pop up and are right there when you need them. Also, confirming the ministry of life in their lives and in their speaking and ministering. I aspire just to be a little Ananias.

So, just speaking for myself, that is why I have been here for over four decades.... enjoying Him, His life and His truth, His nourishing and cherishing in the Body, and the spiritual insight, knowledge, and authority He exhibits as part of this wonderful place called Christ and the Church. So, no, Brother Lee never needed to mention he had spiritual insight, knowledge, and authority.... I just recognized with my eyes, ears, and nose, that he was a gift to the Body given by and through the Holy Spirit.

Again, thanks for the questions.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 02:46 AM   #43
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Drake, your standards here would be sufficient for the Corinthians, typical Greeks who loved their earthly wisdom and their charismatic experiences. Sounds to me like you fit into the category of those who clamored, "I am of Apollos."

Apostle Paul, however, when confronted by High Priests, Kings, and Rulers alike about his ministry, mentioned his exercising a good conscience, a conscience void of offense.

Your favorite minister, on the other hand, had serious shortcomings here. God's way for the leaders of His people is not how much they know, but how they live their life. Crooked business dealings, peddling the word of God, and a life of stumbling the children of God tends to negate all that Bible knowledge.

Dear Drake, have you forgotten that many of us were also acolytes of Lee at one time? You are not preaching to the choir here. We have seen the guy "behind the curtain." We have seen how he behaved himself during times of testing. He was able to fool some of the people some of the time, but eventually the Lord had a way to expose it all.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 05:59 AM   #44
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
And Ananias, being equally zealous for the law, and attested to by the law-keeping Jews, wasn't also in error? Why did Paul cite this status approvingly before his accusers? Was Paul also carried away a la Galatians chapter 2?
The New Jerusalem has 12 gates, people come from every direction. We are told that the Law was a child conductor to bring us to Christ.

Acts 22:12 can be translated "a pious man". I see no reason why being Pious is considered an error.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 06:11 AM   #45
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
1. Witness Lee's teaching is chock-full of errors, as this website makes amply plain. We should keep this in mind as we examine his critiques of James, and others.
I find the term "chock-full" to be far too vague. I would agree that "the ground of the church" doctrine has errors. I would also agree that the MOTA teaching has errors. However, the MOTA doctrine is incredibly sparse in WL's ministry. I say "incredibly" because I heard it very often in Houston, in Irving and on this forum, yet in his written ministry it is a very minor reference. Finally, WL taught that some books lacked the "divine revelation". Books that he focused this criticism on were Job, Psalms, Proverbs, and James. I find that teaching to be personally offensive, but not uncommon among other Bible teachers. Therefore it is arrogant of me to assume that I only have the truth any more than it was for WL. I would find it more helpful if we actually had a list of errors that were commonly accepted on this forum. I am not familiar with any other errors in his teaching that are commonly accepted on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
2. The Bible makes plain what is revelatory and what is error. No need of a special apostolic decoder ring.
Then what meantheth this bleating of manifold Bible expositors in my ear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
3. I never said "all equal". I'm saying that some teachers like WL dismiss scripture like James & Psalms on the flimsiest of pretexts. The scripture itself doesn't make these judgments, yet WL boldly does so. Shouldn't we be good 'bereans' and challenge whether this is so, and if so, on what merits?
No, you didn't say it, but Peter said "like precious faith". If each of these books contains the faith of Christ it is "like precious".

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
To ignore scripture is peril. Leaf through your RecV, sometime. Page after page of Psalms with nary a note, even a cross-reference, even when dozens lie waiting to be found. Then ask yourself which has more value to you- the Bible or the ministry of its exposition? And, what basis do you have that the writers and speakers of the NT, starting with Jesus, held such a view? I see no evidence for it in the NT, rather the opposite. Yet the exposition of WL imposes it on the text.
For all the errors we can claim WL had, "ignoring scripture" in his teaching is not one of them. He did a verse by verse exegesis of the entire Bible.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 06:49 AM   #46
leastofthese
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 508
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I find the term "chock-full" to be far too vague. I would agree that "the ground of the church" doctrine has errors. I would also agree that the MOTA teaching has errors. However, the MOTA doctrine is incredibly sparse in WL's ministry. I say "incredibly" because I heard it very often in Houston, in Irving and on this forum, yet in his written ministry it is a very minor reference. Finally, WL taught that some books lacked the "divine revelation". Books that he focused this criticism on were Job, Psalms, Proverbs, and James. I find that teaching to be personally offensive, but not uncommon among other Bible teachers. Therefore it is arrogant of me to assume that I only have the truth any more than it was for WL. I would find it more helpful if we actually had a list of errors that were commonly accepted on this forum. I am not familiar with any other errors in his teaching that are commonly accepted on this forum.
Z,

I agree with many of your sentiments, I would challenge the depth of impact his MOTA philosophy has on the ministry to this day. Every individual has theological errors, Witness Lee should never be criticized just for having false beliefs...

How would you describe Lee and his ministry?

Not in an attempt to lead your answer, but as a way to clarify my question:
Do you think Lee was a Godly man with a strong ministry that got a few things wrong? Pick the bones out of the chicken?
__________________
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
leastofthese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 07:02 AM   #47
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Z,

I agree with many of your sentiments, I would challenge the depth of impact his MOTA philosophy has on the ministry to this day. Every individual has theological errors, Witness Lee should never be criticized just for having false beliefs...

How would you describe Lee and his ministry?

Not in an attempt to lead your answer, but as a way to clarify my question:
Do you think Lee was a Godly man with a strong ministry that got a few things wrong? Pick the bones out of the chicken?
I think that WL was a false prophet. By that I think he was a prophet of God, but his covetousness and compromises with sins made him false. So just as Balaam and Judas were prophets of God, so was WL.

I also think it is very important for a maturing believer to know how to recognize and protect the Body from a false prophet, so I am thankful for my time in the LRC.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 07:08 AM   #48
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I find the term "chock-full" to be far too vague.
I do too, and only used it because Drake used this term to characterize the Bible's deficiencies. My point is, if it's true for the Bible then it's doubly or trebly true for the one (WL) who's criticizing the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
For all the errors we can claim WL had, "ignoring scripture" in his teaching is not one of them. He did a verse by verse exegesis of the entire Bible.
If you look at your RecV, from Psalm 3 to 7 there is only a passing comment that it is "mixed". With one footnote he dismisses 5 chapters as irrelevant. And the trend continues with chapters 9 through 15, and 17 through 21. Only what NT reception forces him, does he cover.

I don't see this as someone who treasures the Bible. Drake suggests that he wasn't 'inspired' to cover it. Well, maybe he should have gone out and gotten a regular job, then, like everyone else; not pass himself off as a professional Bible teacher and interpreter.

I'm ignorant but don't pass myself off as an expert, and try to sell books and messages and trainings; perhaps the most ignorant person is the one who says everyone but them is ignorant: they can't learn from anyone. WL once told us he hadn't learnt anything from anyone for 45 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Aron, perhaps the task of writing footnotes for the Psalms falls to someone the Lord inspires. Is that you? Exactly, how many footnotes have you written on the Psalms? As many as Brother Lee wrote? I’m not trying to embarrass you... but instead of criticizing Brother Lee for not writing more footnotes to Psalms than he did... then why don’t you do it instead of sitting on a quasi Internet Bema and passing judgment? What if you are held to the same standard as you hold Brother Lee to on number of footnotes written at the judgement that matters most....will you pass that exam?
What's needed on this forum is not a verse-by-verse exposition (though posting as an amateur on the Psalms thread I may have seen more Christ than the professional WL did in his RecV footnotes); what's needed is for someone to point out that ignorant charlatans may cover their ignorance by dismissing the work they're supposedly unveiling (the Bible [!!!]) as, what did you call it - 'deficient', or 'erroneous'. That's a clear 'red flag' which should be called out.

Because 20-somethings are often too naïve to see this, and being gullible and easily coerced, may find themselves in a college conference, trembling with emotion, pledging their lives to "serve Christ", which means to henceforth slavishly consume this charlatan's output, and peddle it to others.

So someone needs to point out the obvious, here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
But, you still have not shown us where the Bible states about itself what you think it should say. Where?

Drake
Psalm 12:6 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.

The Bible has been purified seven times, which is more than we can say for WL's corpus, or yours or mine for that matter. If there's a challenge between the expositor and the Word, I'll go with the Word.

Watchman Nee's supposed classic, the "Spiritual Man", didn't even make it past the second printing, and the publisher had to put out a note in the forward that he'd cribbed without attribution from Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. The publisher said, "That's what the Chinese custom is, when they like someone's writing; it's a compliment". Yes, and sell it as their own.

Same with WL. His oeuvre needs some purification. And, you're welcome.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 07:56 AM   #49
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Psalm 12:6 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
Since this is the case I don't agree with the claim that the Bible is "chock full" of errors.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 08:05 AM   #50
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

This thread seems to have gone off track, becoming a debate over whether or not WL's teaching that certain books lacked the divine revelation is a valid teaching.

I think if we can all agree that WL did not have the authority to determine which books were and were not part of the divine revelation then we can all move forward with the thread.

Drake feels that some of these books were given to us as examples of the kind of errors that can be made. He believes that every scripture is God breathed but that does not preclude recording human ideas and opinions. Certainly we all have to agree that the book of Job records human ideas and opinions, and we have to agree that this is a view held widely, perhaps even by a majority of believers.

As long as we all agree that WL didn't have the authority to declare this book is God's word and that book isn't, how does any further debate apply to this thread?

Aron has gone into Psalms extensively already on another thread. I have gone into Job and James, and 77150 did a nice job on Proverbs.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 08:45 AM   #51
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Why do Paul and Ananias get a pass?
To the victor go the spoils. The winners write the history. That sort of thing.

Christianity started out Jewish. But that didn't last long. Paul soon came along, and the rest is history. There was an massive influx of gentiles converting to Christianity. By virtue of population the gentiles won out, and the Jewish Christians (James - Ebionites - Nazarenes) lost.

So I find it kinda funny that we gentiles are critiquing James. A little Chinese man putting down James. Now that's funny. The brother of Jesus no less. They grew up together. Ya can't get any closer to Jesus than that. He had to know him better than any of his followers, then and now. No wonder he thought he went loony ; 'my brother said what!?!'

James stayed a good Jew. Like his brother Jesus ; that followed God's law like no one else.

You don't like it? Take it up with Jesus.

A little Chinese man putting down James ...
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:23 AM   #52
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
This thread seems to have gone off track, becoming a debate over whether or not WL's teaching that certain books lacked the divine revelation is a valid teaching.

I think if we can all agree that WL did not have the authority to determine which books were and were not part of the divine revelation then we can all move forward with the thread.

Drake feels that some of these books were given to us as examples of the kind of errors that can be made. He believes that every scripture is God breathed but that does not preclude recording human ideas and opinions. Certainly we all have to agree that the book of Job records human ideas and opinions, and we have to agree that this is a view held widely, perhaps even by a majority of believers.

As long as we all agree that WL didn't have the authority to declare this book is God's word and that book isn't, how does any further debate apply to this thread?.
The issue was WN "recovering the Jerusalem Principle"; i.e. imposing external control on local assemblies. James and the Jerusalem church came to mind for some. Some came to Antioch, Peter drew back, afraid, etc.

My point was merely, Be careful how broad a brush you paint with, because in Acts you see many "law-abiding Jesus-following Jews" besides James. Some of them rather close to home, if you know what I mean. The issue was not legalism versus "Gods economy" but rather imposition of one's mores and values on others. And I'm stressing that it goes both ways - it's at the core of Jesus' teachings. "Do unto others". . .

And related, it's worth noting those whose "authority" extends to making broad-based, disparaging assessments of the writers and speakers of scripture.. We're not talking marginal issues here on one or two obscure verses. We're talking wholesale dismissal, which is completely against apostolic precedent.

If you don't get scriptures, maybe it's not defective; maybe your understanding is defective. And maybe in the rush to protect "Antioch" from Jerusalem's incursions, we created the opposite. We just shifted earthly centres.

And that's relevant to the experience of Chinese believers and the Christian West. Two wrongs don't make a right. Denominationalism, though real, doesn't excuse the Little Flock and what it became.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:39 AM   #53
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

...in documenting the God-breathed Word of God, God used imperfect human instruments as inspired channels to record His thought, then used imperfect scribes over the centuries from different schools to copy manuscripts, then He raised up imperfect ministers to recover the divine truths over the last few centuries, and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:45 AM   #54
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Since this is the case I don't agree with the claim that the Bible is "chock full" of errors.

Who said that?


Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:51 AM   #55
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
A little Chinese man putting down James ..
Peter and John went up to the temple for the ritual prayers, in Acts 3:1. They were 100% within Judaism as it stood, there. Yet these two, who hadn't yet read Paul's treatises on grace, healed a man, and thousands believed.

Paul was writing to gentiles - he was a minister to the gentiles by his own admission (Gal 2:8). What he did minister, did not negate the spiritual experiences of others like James, Peter, and John.

Again, the issue was, and is, about imposition of alien values. Whether Jerusalem on Antioch (Assyrians), Western values on China, or Chinese ways on the West. The answer should be no, in every account.

Jesus loves every tribe, every tongue, every people, every nation. Those who want control try to efface them. If you don't know the difference you'll get fooled. Test the spirits, to see of what sort they are.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:59 AM   #56
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Who said that?


Drake
You said that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 11:59 AM   #57
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
First, the definition for "words" in Psalm 12:6 is not that used for "scripture" (i.e. the record..). So, it is a bit careless on your part to translate it that way and but I understand your mindset so we'll leave it there.
So now you differentiate between the word of God and all scripture which is God-breathed?

Slippery slope indeed.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:04 PM   #58
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.

Drake
Nowhere does the NT treat the OT the way WL did. But he did so anyway. I point out the peril - so sue me. And even though there's clearly tension between the nascent wings of the Christian movement in the NT, it doesn't mean we should declare one the 'victor' and write off the other testimony as erroneous. Satan loves it when we cavalierly dismiss the testimony of the book.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:05 PM   #59
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
So now you differentiate between the word of God and all scripture which is God-breathed?

Slippery slope indeed.
Only the MOTA can do this, for fun & profit. The rest have to get in line.

My comment all along has been, Where in the NT reception of scripture do we see invitations to parse it thus? If the whole thing boils down to, my opinion/ interpretation versus that of WL, at least my opinion has the backing of apostolic precedent. His has none.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #60
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Nowhere does the NT treat the OT the way WL did. But he did so anyway. I point out the peril - so sue me. And even though there's clearly tension between the nascent wings of the Christian movement in the NT, it doesn't mean we should declare one the 'victor' and write off the other testimony as erroneous. Satan loves it when we dismiss the testimony of the book. He loves it.
That's not an invite one should make to LSM.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:28 PM   #61
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Who said that?


Drake
Aron ascribed this to you, but you have cleared that misunderstanding up.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:31 PM   #62
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The broader point you miss, aron, is that in documenting the God-breathed Word of God, God used imperfect human instruments as inspired channels to record His thought, then used imperfect scribes over the centuries from different schools to copy manuscripts, then He raised up imperfect ministers to recover the divine truths over the last few centuries, and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

So I find it ironic, brother, that you would convince us and yourself that your viewpoint is of the Word while others viewpoints who disagree with your viewpoint are simply of an expositor. You make it sound as if the Bible was handed to us down out of the sky or with a booming voice from the heavens and that now you are choosing THAT Bible verses someone's interpretation of the Bible we all own.

Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.

Drake
The bottom line is lets' not be arrogant about our own interpretation while condemning the arrogance of others.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:43 PM   #63
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
You said that.
What I said was:

"The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings."

and that is not the same as...

"The Bible is chocked full of errors."

.. nor do I believe that the Bible is deficient. Both you wrongly ascribed to me. I believe neither.

Of course, if I did believe those then that would make your conversation much easier....but since I don't you'll have to form an argument around what I actually said. It's better that anyway, don't you agree?

Thx
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 12:45 PM   #64
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The bottom line is lets' not be arrogant about our own interpretation while condemning the arrogance of others.
Yep. I agree.

Thx
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:11 PM   #65
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Nowhere does the NT treat the OT the way WL did. But he did so anyway. .
How did Brother Lee treat the OT? He opened it up thoroughly. As ZNP observed verse by verse.

But you mean Psalms... well, I took your advice and thumbed through the RcV and on almost every page in the book of Psalms there are footnotes. Psalm 1:1 is really comprehensive and takes up two pages in fine print all by itself. Quite a treatise for those who care about the Psalms.

Now, granted these footnotes in Psalms are not extensive as you would find Brother Lee wrote in Ephesians, Hebrews, Matthew, Revelation, Romans, because frankly, there is much more concerning the dispensation we now live in those NT books than in the Psalms. The revelation of the church, the Body and Bride of Christ was not revealed in the Old Testament so clearly so of course more time is spent studying God's NT economy. In retrospect, we can see now in the OT what was a mystery to the OT readers and Brother Lee has drilled down on the Pentateuch and other OT books extensively to connect the dots to the NT economy.

Even the book of James has over 150 footnotes. Quite a labor for someone whom you accuse of wanting to shrink it out of existence. Au contraire.. James has its place and Brother Lee labored on that too. You may disagree with how he positioned it but it is disingenuous to claim he tried to get rid of it.


Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:19 PM   #66
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
What I said was:

"The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings."

and that is not the same as...

"The Bible is chocked full of errors."

.. nor do I believe that the Bible is deficient. Both you wrongly ascribed to me. I believe neither.

Of course, if I did believe those then that would make your conversation much easier....but since I don't you'll have to form an argument around what I actually said. It's better that anyway, don't you agree?

Thx
Drake
Okay, now we're finding common ground. The Bible is not deficient; it just contains deficient writings. Not the same thing. Okay, good.

By the same token, I can say that the published work of Witness Lee isn't erroneous per se, but rather that it contains many errors. So let's narrow it down, shall we?

One of the chief errors of WL was to miss Christ. Instead, he either saw "the NT believer enjoying grace" or he saw the OT writer vainly trying to please God. Yet the clear NT record, in gospel, Acts of apostles, and epistle, is to see Jesus (Heb 2.8).

It was a kind of freudian slip, to ascribe error to those who expose oneself. (In this I'm often guilty as well, I know).

The other erroneous concept that we see in the ministries of WN and WL is the "it's ok if I do it, but don't you dare" idea. One can preach decentralization one day, and centralize things the next. "Freedom" one day, "restrictions" the next. Depends on the mood of the moment. The MOTA can do this because he's the MOTA, with special needs.

Another erroneous teaching is that God is, after all, a respecter of persons. The MOTA never makes mistakes. The church might crumble, if so.

Which brings us full circle - if the Bible is full of people saying dumb things, can we say the same thing for the ministry? And if not, why is it exempt from the same measure it holds on scripture? After all, ''as ye measure, so shall ye be measured" is the word.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:31 PM   #67
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Now, granted these footnotes in Psalms are not extensive as you would find Brother Lee wrote in Ephesians, Hebrews, Matthew, Revelation, Romans, because frankly, there is much more concerning the dispensation we now live in those NT books than in the Psalms.
Of all the mistakes Brother Lee made, probably the worst was this: he thought the Bible was about himself. It's not- it's about Jesus. It's not about "the dispensation we now live in" - it's about Jesus. It's not about your subjectivistic, self-obsessed "enjoyment" or your "church life" - so sorry!

Paul, to his credit, said, "we do not preach ourselves". WL did nothing but preach himself: his faith, his ministry, his church, his teachings, his interpretations, his recovery.

All those footnotes - chock full of mixed human sentiments and fallen human concepts. Full of self - the fallen human self, all the unmet needs and unresolved anxieties, writ large and imposed on the deluded collective. Like another collectivist prophet (Karl Marx) said, "We step back and see ourselves in the world we have created." I couldn't have put it better myself.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:36 PM   #68
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
To the victor go the spoils. The winners write the history. That sort of thing.

Christianity started out Jewish. But that didn't last long. Paul soon came along, and the rest is history. There was an massive influx of gentiles converting to Christianity. By virtue of population the gentiles won out, and the Jewish Christians (James - Ebionites - Nazarenes) lost.

So I find it kinda funny that we gentiles are critiquing James. A little Chinese man putting down James. Now that's funny. The brother of Jesus no less. They grew up together. Ya can't get any closer to Jesus than that. He had to know him better than any of his followers, then and now. No wonder he thought he went loony ; 'my brother said what!?!'

James stayed a good Jew. Like his brother Jesus ; that followed God's law like no one else.

You don't like it? Take it up with Jesus.

A little Chinese man putting down James ...

Well LOOK at brother Harold..full of AWARENESS!!
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
countmeworthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:52 PM   #69
Indiana
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 578
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.
At any rate, spiritual authority in the "local churches" warrants scrutiny. Angelica has shaken things up with much passion, according to her convictions. She has had much appreciation for Watchman Nee up to this time; and only yesterday learned of his dramatic changes taken in 1948. Thus, her reaction.

She says, "Feel free to use anything I say if you think it will help. We are all those "three blind men with the elephant." One of us feels the trunk; one of us feels the tail; another feels the leg; then we try to figure out what this entity is about."

And I agree.


From Angelica
"I was pretty certain "Spiritual Authority" was written at that time [1948]. It has the seeds of that error----which I don't see in Nee's earlier writings. I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry. And I think "Concerning Our Missions"/"The Normal Christian Church is, possibly his best, most classic---and unique---work. I also fully appreciate "The Spiritual Man" and all the volumes of "Twelve Baskets Full." I think those are my favorites (pretty much in that order).

This insanity of "the Jerusalem principle" is not at all worthy of the man he was in his earlier years. I had that same thing happen regarding another brother. When I came out of the LC, a brother gave me some 6 tape messages on the matter of authority. They were absolutely AMAZING messages!!!! I wish I could listen to them again today!

Those messages were chock full of scriptures describing the 7 "levels" of authority. Wow! They made EVERYTHING clear to me! I memorized the general information, but would LOVE to hear them today for so many of the details!

What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely. Under them is 5. conscience---which also needs to be obeyed absolutely. Under conscience (on a level parallel with one another) are delegated and functional authority---both of which can demand only qualified obedience (under the other "levels' of authority. Mahoney used the verse in Romans about "Let every soul be subject to the HIGHER authorities." To Mahoney, that indicated there are various levels of authority (which also supports the idea of conscientious objector, because conscience, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, etc. are all "higher" levels of authority than either delegated or functional authority).

And, since conscience can be faulty because it is educable, if the Holy Spirit, God, or the Word of God command something the conscience doesn't confirm, we must go with the Word of God. (For instance, the African headhunter may be trained that if he doesn't secure enough heads per day he doesn't feel as if he is being a "good" headhunter. But the Bible tells us not to murder.) It is doubtful that that particular conflict would occur under most ordinary circumstances. However, the conflict of delegated authority (particularly in governments and families) conflicting with the Word of God, conscience, the Holy Spirit and/or God is very common!

The last two levels (which are actually two different kinds of authority which are on the same level) are delegated authority (such as government and responsible members of the family) and functional authority (authority due to gift, ability or attribute, such a an athlete, an artist, a doctor, a musician, a lawyer, any sort of minister or spiritual authority, etc.)

We had always been taught that spiritual authority is a from of "delegated authority." But it isn't. Delegated authority is assigned to an agent in the absence of the initial one who possessed that authority. But God is Emmanuel; He is WITH us! He never went anywhere. Also, delegated authority rests in that agent regardless of that agent's condition. (A police officer, president, father, mother, mayor, etc. has authority by virtue of his position, regardless of his particular condition. He may be a good or bad agent, but he is still that agent, regardless. His authority is posited in him upon delegation.

Functional authority, on the other hand, is FULLY contingent upon the gift, ability, or attribute of the possessor. If a man is more spiritual than others in his assembly, he has more spiritual authority. If he sins grievously, he may lose his authority and be less spiritual than others. A doctor can be disbarred; a very poor athlete or musician loses his authority in the sphere in which he is to manifest the authority of his gift or skill. So, it is with spiritual authority.

The messages were given by a Ralph Mahoney. I had never heard of him before those messages. However, eventually I went to a charismatic church pastored by some brothers who knew Ralph Mahoney. When I brought up his name, they actually invited him to speak. His speaking was absolute pablum. No content and worthless! I was SOOO disappointed!

I signed up for his magazine. It, too, was worthless. I have no idea how a brother could at one time give such AMAZING, revelatory, insightful and scriptural messages and later be so superficial. And not just superficial, but I was pretty certain "Spiritual Authority" was written at that time. It has the seeds of that error----which I don't see in Nee's earlier writings. I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry. And I think "Concerning Our Missions"/"The Normal Christian Church is, possibly his best, most classic---and unique---work. I also fully appreciate "The Spiritual Man" and all the volumes of "Twelve Baskets Full." I think those are my favorites (pretty much in that order).

This insanity of "the Jerusalem principle" is not at all worthy of the man he was in his earlier years. I had that same thing happen regarding another brother. When I came out of the LC, a brother gave me some 6 tape messages on the matter of authority. They were absolutely AMAZING messages!!!! I wish I could listen to them again today!

Those messages were chock full of scriptures describing the 7 "levels" of authority. Wow! They made EVERYTHING clear to me! I memorized the general information, but would LOVE to hear them today for so many of the details!

What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely. Under them is 5. conscience---which also needs to be obeyed absolutely. Under conscience (on a level parallel with one another) are delegated and functional authority---both of which can demand only qualified obedience (under the other "levels' of authority. Ma
honey used the verse in Romans about "Let every soul be subject to the HIGHER authorities." To Mahoney, that indicated there are various levels of authority (which also supports the idea of conscientious objector, because conscience, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, etc. are all "higher" levels of authority than either delegated or functional authority).

And, since conscience can be faulty because it is educable, if the Holy Spirit, God, or the Word of God command something the conscience doesn't confirm, we must go with the Word of God. (For instance, the African headhunter may be trained that if he doesn't secure enough heads per day he doesn't feel as if he is being a "good" headhunter. But the Bible tells us not to murder.) It is doubtful that that particular conflict would occur under most ordinary circumstances. However, the conflict of delegated authority (particularly in governments and families) conflicting with the Word of God, conscience, the Holy Spirit and/or God is very common!

The last two levels (which are actually two different kinds of authority which are on the same level) are delegated authority (such as government and responsible members of the family) and functional authority (authority due to gift, ability or attribute, such a an athlete, an artist, a doctor, a musician, a lawyer, any sort of minister or spiritual authority, etc.)

We had always been taught that spiritual authority is a from of "delegated authority." But it isn't. Delegated authority is assigned to an agent in the absence of the initial one who possessed that authority. But God is Emmanuel; He is WITH us! He never went anywhere. Also, delegated authority rests in that agent regardless of that agent's condition. (A police officer, president, father, mother, mayor, etc. has authority by virtue of his position, regardless of his particular condition. He may be a good or bad agent, but he is still that agent, regardless. His authority is posited in him upon delegation.


Functional authority, on the other hand, is FULLY contingent upon the gift, ability, or attribute of the possessor. If a man is more spiritual than others in his assembly, he has more spiritual authority. If he sins grievously, he may lose his authority and be less spiritual than others. A doctor can be disbarred; a very poor athlete or musician loses his authority in the sphere in which he is to manifest the authority of his gift or skill. So, it is with spiritual authority.

The messages were given by a Ralph Mahoney. I had never heard of him before those messages. However, eventually I went to a charismatic church pastored by some brothers who knew Ralph Mahoney. When I brought up his name, they actually invited him to speak. His speaking was absolute pablum. No content and worthless! I was SOOO disappointed!

I signed up for his magazine. It, too, was worthless. I have no idea how a brother could at one time give such AMAZING, revelatory, insightful and scriptural messages and later be so superficial. And not just superficial, but charismaniac! That remains a complete mystery to me today!
Indiana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 02:33 PM   #70
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelica View Post
I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry.
That WN & WN expressed Chinese culture is understandable, and not wrong of itself. What's wrong is that this culture - shared history and agreed-upon assumptions and expectations based on that history - imposed itself as a universal, one-size-fits-all "Christ". We'd get crushed by a "storm" or "rebellion", but no one could step back and objectively examine the shared values and expectations that led to the blow-up. At the core, there was fallen human culture, uncritically received.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelica
What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely.
Christ, on earth, obeyed the Father absolutely. As such, nothing could stop him - "You just speak the word, and my servant will be healed". Matt 8:8

Don't be lulled by those who merely teach. This is counterfeit authority. How many thousands have been pinioned to chairs, meeting after meeting, book after conference after message. The whole world is out there, waiting for the power, authority and kingdom of our Lord and His Christ. ~Rev 11:15

But we got meetings and teachings. Thank God for the day that I walked out that door. . .it took some years, but eventually my mind was restored.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2018, 05:03 AM   #71
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.
Consider the tools they had to force compliance:

1. They could cut off the ministry from LSM. That would immediately distinguish this locality as being "off".

2. They could cut off the fellowship with other churches.

3. They could foment a challenge.

4. They could use their legal team to try and seize control of the meeting hall.

5. They could establish another "church" in that city.

Notice how 2-5 are divisive and thoroughly condemned by the NT yet were practiced by LSM.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2018, 06:04 AM   #72
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Notice how 2-5 are divisive and thoroughly condemned by the NT yet were practiced by LSM.
And, it should be noted, such practices reveal a lack of spiritual authority. Anyone who resorts to forcing, coercing, or manipulating in order to gain compliance, does not know the true power and authority of the kingdom.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2018, 06:08 AM   #73
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Consider the tools they had to force compliance:...
For years both Lee and the blendeds sowed suspicions with their not-so-subtle innuendos from the podium. This would set off a firestorm of hush-hush whisperings after the meetings: Who is he talking about? Who is not in the flow? Who is doing their own thing? Who is not one with the ministry?

None of this was accidental. It all served the purpose of manipulation, using peer pressure and public shaming to bring leaders under subjection to LSM and its lackeys. As a precursor to their divisive actions, LSM was forcing all leaders to "choose sides" which is the very definition of division. Sleeper cells, a global network of LSM spies was recruited in order to feed back to headquarters any "deviant" speaking in the LC's, such as not using the latest training messages, or one brother speaking too long in the meeting.

Witness Lee in as much admitted this when he blurted out publicly, "I know everything, I know everything you do, people write me long letters, they tell me everything." Same tactics were used in totalitarian regimes -- half the population was spying on the other half -- all for supposed perks with the bosses in Anaheim.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 12:09 PM   #74
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
...in documenting the God-breathed Word of God, God used imperfect human instruments as inspired channels to record His thought, then used imperfect scribes over the centuries from different schools to copy manuscripts, then He raised up imperfect ministers to recover the divine truths over the last few centuries, and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.
Wow Drake, I agree 100% with this...especially the last part that I have placed in bold. The only problem, as far as the Local Church of Witness Lee is concerned, is that the official, published policy of the movement is that God is no longer "using imperfect expositors to expound his written Word" (and, one must assume, by extension the Holy Spirit is not able to speak) - All the exposition and expounding came to a screeching halt with the death of Witness Lee. That's right folks, all the exposition and expounding ended on June 9th, 1997. If you don't believe me, please review the official proclamation by the official leaders - "Publication Work in the Lord's Recovery" AKA "The One Publication".

As a matter of fact, no person or persons in the Local Church has the right, privilege or authority to add or take away from the sacred words of brother LǐChángshòu - they are to be forever memorialized and canonized within the strict bounds given and heavily guarded by a California corporation - The Living Stream Ministry. So if the Holy Spirit is going to speak (and he better be reading from a Life Study when he does!) he will have to do so among the officially sanctioned pages coming forth from 2431 W. La Palma Ave. Anaheim California.


Quote:
Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.
Wow, and the hits just keep coming! Good job my fine feathered friend! You just described the ministry of Witness Lee. "The pure Word"? hmmm...where have we all heard that one? Let me see...hmmm...Oh, I know....From Witness Lee. In fact, he used the phrase quite often to refer to his personal interpretations and opinions. Even when he was reproved by numerous Christian teachers, scholars and apologists...he just blew them off as evil opposers...blind, dead mooing cows. Oh, and let's not even get into what Lee did do those who questioned his interpretations and opinions from within the Local Church....they WISH they were treated as good as those blind, dead mooing cows!
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 02:18 PM   #75
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.
Lee's local church isn't the first to set themselves up as the intermediary between us and the Holy Spirit.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 06:55 PM   #76
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
As a matter of fact, no person or persons in the Local Church has the right, privilege or authority to add or take away from the sacred words of brother LǐChángshòu - they are to be forever memorialized and canonized within the strict bounds given and heavily guarded by a California corporation - The Living Stream Ministry. So if the Holy Spirit is going to speak (and he better be reading from a Life Study when he does!) he will have to do so among the officially sanctioned pages coming forth from 2431 W. La Palma Ave. Anaheim California.
-
Brother UntoHim,

I hesitate to respond to you because in what appears to be an unguarded moment you are near to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you could avoid inflammatory rhetoric that includes what the Holy Spirit should or should not do.... if not for your own sake then for those who look up to you. Ok?

Now, the real matter of fact is that the “One Publication “ does not say what you say it does. You reference the document but fail to represent the content accurately. That is a minor infraction in the grand scheme of things and forgivable ....

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 06:59 PM   #77
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Thank God for the day that I walked out that door. . ..
Brother Aron,

You walked out that door...

.... but you never left.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 08:45 PM   #78
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Brother Aron,

You walked out that door...

.... but you never left.

Drake
May I interlope? I liken it to a palm tree that gets bent by a hurricane, and continues to grow thereafter as a bent palm tree. I love those trees.

So you are right bro Drake, we can get out of the LC, but it's not easy to get the LC out of us.

Hopefully we can get free enough to think for our self. We may continue bent, but at least be a self critical thinking tree.

Oil and water. That is what the LC, and self thinking, are to each other ... as I remember it.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 08:53 PM   #79
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,509
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Drake I'm so glad that you have decided what is, and what is not, forgivable. I can now rest in peace tonight!

Of course I dramatized the real situation, as I'm apt to do. I'm just that kind of guy. But, as you are apt to do, you totally and predictably avoided and evaded the one major point that I made in my "forgivable unguarded moment" - That the One Publication in The Lord's Recovery clearly and strongly states that Witness Lee is the only person who spoke as God's oracle while he was on earth. If anything is "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" then it is this unbiblical, cultic declaration that binds an entire Christian group to the words of a fallible, fallen man, who the facts of history have shown that he was not who he represented himself to be, and whose movement that he brought to America is not what he represented it to be.

Call em as I see my man. Truth hurts. You know, all that kind of stuff.

-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 08:57 PM   #80
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Now, the real matter of fact is that the “One Publication “ does not say what you say it does. You reference the document but fail to represent the content accurately. That is a minor infraction in the grand scheme of things and forgivable ....

Drake

From the One Pub (underlining added):

"It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there.......By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us?"

"Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out."

When you combine these claims with DCP's www.afaithfulword.org's dissertation on the vision/ministry/minister of the age (the home page of which, btw, plainly references the One Pub and the rest of the site exists to defend the One Pub):

"Brother Lee...left us with both a complete blueprint for the building up of the Body of Christ and clear guidelines for how the building of the Body can be accomplished."

"There is no successor to this wise master builder [Witness Lee], but there is an open group of being-blended brothers who are absolutely consecrated to the Lord to continue the work begun by this wise master builder. (Ron Kangas, "The Builders of the Divine Building, The Ministry Magazine, vol. 10, no. 1, p. 150). .......[This] simply states a commitment to keeping the vision of the age as delivered to us through our Brother Witness Lee before the saints as the content of the speaking of the blending co-workers."

"In fact, this speaking matches both the realization and earnest desire of Brother Nee and Brother Lee. In these days the Lord desires that all of the saints in His recovery would rise up to enter into the revelation and vision released through Brother Nee and Brother Lee, particularly the high peak truths of the last phase of Brother Lee's ministry...At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."

There are not many other conclusions to draw except:
1. Read and speak only Lee because apparently "All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man [Lee] are void of light and revelation" (from a faithfulword.org, WOW what a claim!!), and

2. Lee was the last great master builder to be succeeded by no one, and we just keep looking to whatever he produced for the vision to follow.......even though apparently through all the ages of human history God's principle (the unchanging One, by the way) of one minister per age unexpectedly changed!
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 10:02 PM   #81
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
From the One Pub (underlining added):

"It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there.......By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us?"

"Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out."
These statements, made some 30 years ago, are utter nonsense. No new light or life supply? Wasting your time amd money? Saints waste their time reading? No food? Nothing new?

I call BS on all of Lee's false witness here. Since when can he make such judgments on the works of other servants of God. Matter of fact, The Harvest and The Christian papers were full of the anointing. Thousands of saints could testify of this. The anointing Spirit of God blessed those two papers, and others too which were widely circulated at the time.

Since when does the novelty of "something new" become the standard by which Lee or LSM can shut down other ministries? Isn't the demand for "something new" a false standard? Why do other ministries need something new? Paul preached boring old "Christ crucified," and that was pleasing to God, and anointed by His Spirit. Isn't the leading of the Spirit more than adequate to publish? Does not God endorse His leading with the anointing and blessing from above?

It seems that Lee's addiction for "something new" has caused endless problems. Is not that what led to his errant teachings about "becoming God?" Do not itchy ears long for what is "new" rather than what God has anointed? Has not his rash decision to end the ministries of other brothers, with the demands of One Publication, usurped the operation of the Head of the body?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 10:35 PM   #82
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
There are not many other conclusions to draw except:
1. Read and speak only Lee because apparently "All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man [Lee] are void of light and revelation" (from a faithfulword.org, WOW what a claim!!), and

2. Lee was the last great master builder to be succeeded by no one, and we just keep looking to whatever he produced for the vision to follow.......even though apparently through all the ages of human history God's principle (the unchanging One, by the way) of one minister per age unexpectedly changed!
Brother Trapped you have brought to light the final end of the ministers of the age. Like Lutherans hold to Luther, the Recovery holds to their dead leader ... stuck at an antiquated MOTA.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 11:06 PM   #83
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

The One Pub and the statements made in defense of it on afaithfulword.org turn my stomach and it grieves me that there are genuine believers in the Lord who have been deceived into believing the claims. Or that they see through the claims and are grieved themselves, but are trapped in such a peculiar fear-based environment where their entire lives might be derailed if they follow their conviction to speak up. I have spoken to a number of elders who see through much of this, but then defeatedly admit that they have to keep their mouths shut.

My own experience blows LSM's and Lee's claims out of the water. I recently heard a message (by someone ostensibly "devoid of light") on "blessed are the meek" that absolutely blew me away. There is SO MUCH in just the concept of "meekness" that I have never, ever heard spoken in any LSM-related gathering. (Also, what a concept, not ONCE in any non-LC message I've ever heard has the speaking brother criticized or put down believers in other churches or tried to pass off the speaking in their own church to be "unique" or "high" in comparison to other places).

In contrast, Lee's footnote on "meek" only says this: "To be meek means not to resist the world's opposition but to suffer it willingly", which is not what being meek means (or at least is a very small sliver of it)!! I think we can also safely say that in light of the LC's response to opposition that they have not been "meek" (according to their own definition) by any means.

To make sure I was doing due diligence, I also looked into the Life-Study and Crystallization-Study on that portion in Matthew and the shallowness and lack of light in comparison to the non-LC message I heard was astonishing.

Lee did not have and does not have the monopoly on light.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 11:24 PM   #84
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
These statements, made some 30 years ago, are utter nonsense. No new light or life supply? Wasting your time amd money? Saints waste their time reading? No food? Nothing new?

I call BS on all of Lee's false witness here. Since when can he make such judgments on the works of other servants of God. Matter of fact, The Harvest and The Christian papers were full of the anointing. Thousands of saints could testify of this. The anointing Spirit of God blessed those two papers, and others too which were widely circulated at the time.

Since when does the novelty of "something new" become the standard by which Lee or LSM can shut down other ministries? Isn't the demand for "something new" a false standard? Why do other ministries need something new? Paul preached boring old "Christ crucified," and that was pleasing to God, and anointed by His Spirit. Isn't the leading of the Spirit more than adequate to publish? Does not God endorse His leading with the anointing and blessing from above?

It seems that Lee's addiction for "something new" has caused endless problems. Is not that what led to his errant teachings about "becoming God?" Do not itchy ears long for what is "new" rather than what God has anointed? Has not his rash decision to end the ministries of other brothers, with the demands of One Publication, usurped the operation of the Head of the body?

Great post. Absolutely. Again....."distinctions of ministries, yet the same Lord"!!!!

But don't worry about usurping the Head! DCP is here to tell us what the Lord desires!!!

"In these days the Lord desires that all of the saints in His recovery would rise up to enter into the revelation and vision released through Brother Nee and Brother Lee, particularly the high peak truths of the last phase of Brother Lee's ministry, the practice of the God-ordained way, and the organic shepherding for the building up of the Body of Christ. We should not waste our energy and the saints' time promoting this or that one as another "minister of the age." At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."

Pretty scary when the saints look to these men to be told what the Lord desires. It's one thing to get help from fellow humans to find out what the Lord desires, through His word. But what is being claimed here is not in His word, and is self-serving to the uttermost.

Talk about usurping the Head! Many men on a publishing company's payroll telling hundreds of thousands of people the Lord wants them to keep reading what that very publishing company puts out? Got it
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2018, 11:36 PM   #85
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,942
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
2. Lee was the last great master builder to be succeeded by no one, and we just keep looking to whatever he produced for the vision to follow.......even though apparently through all the ages of human history God's principle (the unchanging One, by the way) of one minister per age unexpectedly changed!
Lee contradicted the principle that there is a minister of every age with his blended brothers teaching. He was the last great master builder? I don't recall reading that in my Bible. What hubris!
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 05:20 AM   #86
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Lee contradicted the principle that there is a minister of every age with his blended brothers teaching. He was the last great master builder? I don't recall reading that in my Bible. What hubris!
So according to his feeling, Witness Lee said the Lord desired to turn the age from one brother ministering from the Bible, to no more spiritual giant and all the Body merely rehearsing and repeating that one man's ministry. Even the Lord Jesus as a man cited scripture: "it is written" and "scripture must be fulfilled" . . . but Witness Lee merely had a feeling and thus the age of church history must change? Even 'hubris' doesn't seem strong enough for this.

And Witness Lee's feeling wasn't affected by bias and self-interest? The man who gave us Timothy Lee and Daystar, and Philip Lee aka "The Office"? It's so obviously self-serving; even the most resolutely non-thinking and non-analytical among the flock must have had their consciences pricked by this kind of talk from ministry leaders.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 07:03 AM   #87
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."
IFFFFF this is TRUE, it has not come to pass because the congregants and followers of Lee, exalt him and his works so much so they don't trust the Holy Spirit to guide them, to counsel them, to enlighten them.

Lee, Nee and the blendeds are STILL the LSM spiritual giants.

"on Christ the SOLID ROCK I STAND!"..and we should ALL STAND on Him and Him alone.
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
countmeworthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 07:44 AM   #88
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
IFFFFF this is TRUE, it has not come to pass because the congregants and followers of Lee, exalt him and his works so much so they don't trust the Holy Spirit to guide them, to counsel them, to enlighten them.
Some need a father figure. The need is stronger at different ages. Authority figures growing up were our parents. We're especially vulnerable to hooking to a replacement father figure when we're entering adulthood. We want to be independent but still need an authority figure. And seems once we hook our wagon to that replacement it becomes hard to unhook it.

Of course we're talking earthly authority figures. Earthly authority figures are easy to follow. Spiritual Authority is an entirely different matter.

Spiritual Authority and earthly authority are at odds with each other. Witness Lee, for example, would not allow the moving of the Spirit to usurp his leadership. When it cropped up, like at Elden Hall, he was sure to put the kibosh on it.

Earthly authority figures will not allow spiritual authority. Follow the Spirit and you won't be around very long. If you've got any sense, you won't want to be.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 07:46 AM   #89
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
So according to his feeling, Witness Lee said the Lord desired to turn the age from one brother ministering from the Bible, to no more spiritual giant and all the Body merely rehearsing and repeating that one man's ministry. Even the Lord Jesus as a man cited scripture: "it is written" and "scripture must be fulfilled" . . . but Witness Lee merely had a feeling and thus the age of church history must change? Even 'hubris' doesn't seem strong enough for this.

And Witness Lee's feeling wasn't affected by bias and self-interest? The man who gave us Timothy Lee and Daystar, and Philip Lee aka "The Office"? It's so obviously self-serving; even the most resolutely non-thinking and non-analytical among the flock must have had their consciences pricked by this kind of talk from ministry leaders.
Uh ... umm ... er ... ahh ... no, not really, aron. And to think that one of my strengths in work was analysis.

Actually, from the end of the Life-Study era onward, I was mostly board with whatever I heard from Lee or the Blendeds. I thought the problem was me. I thought the cure was more of the ministry. From what I gathered over the years, I was the rule rather than the exception.

What awakened me from years of comatose was the One Publication edict which I knew was about to divide the LC's. How could this be happening? What in the world is going on? From what I knew about Titus Chu, telling him to stop his ministry ain't never gonna happen. I could hear the din of battle in the distance. I knew we were in trouble after I read that Phoenix Accord -- "We will agree to be nice to each other." That don't sound good at all!

By using that absurd One Publication edict, LSM opened the Pandora's Box, and all sorts of skeletons from their past came out via the internet.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 03:14 PM   #90
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Uh ... umm ... er ... ahh ... no, not really, aron. And to think that one of my strengths in work was analysis.
Actually you are right. I was there when "It's now the age of small potatoes" was spoken from the dias; I never batted an eye. The age had turned. Amen.

But still, inside me some very small voice said, "Huh?"

The trick to LC church life was keeping those small voices quiet. Push them back in the closet.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2018, 04:53 PM   #91
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Actually you are right. I was there when "It's now the age of small potatoes" was spoken from the dias; I never batted an eye. The age had turned. Amen.

But still, inside me some very small voice said, "Huh?"

The trick to LC church life was keeping those small voices quiet. Push them back in the closet.
I still remember Lee looking at John Ingalls during one training message and queried him out of the blue, "has there been one single book of spiritual value since 1945?"

John had that same "huh?" on his face, yet no words would come out of his mouth.

Lee wanted an affirmation only a lackey could provide, but no honest man of God like John could say a thing.

Did Lee really expect John to have read every single Christian book published since 1945? What kind of person would even ask such a thing?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 08:13 AM   #92
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I still remember Lee looking at John Ingalls during one training message and queried him out of the blue, "has there been one single book of spiritual value since 1945?"

John had that same "huh?" on his face, yet no words would come out of his mouth.

Lee wanted an affirmation only a lackey could provide, but no honest man of God like John could say a thing.

Did Lee really expect John to have read every single Christian book published since 1945? What kind of person would even ask such a thing?
You know what Ingalls could have replied?

"How is it that Watchman Nee had a spiritual library of some 3,000 'classics', yet supposedly nothing of value has been produced in the past 30+ years?"

But who could answer to Lee? A message was an extended monologue, with the audience members as props.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 10:12 AM   #93
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
May I interlope?...

....So you are right bro Drake, we can get out of the LC, but it's not easy to get the LC out of us.

Hopefully we can get free enough to think for our self....
Of course you may interlope..... always.

Whether one walked out like brother aron, or was escorted out like you brother Harold , neither of you ever left. You are physically disconnected yet emotionally and mentally bound to living in the past.... and reliving it .. and have never moved on. It is my observation that in such a state, it is difficult if not impossible to think for yourself..... and that is why the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see.

Something Max's daughter said in another post awhile back struck me along this same train of thought..... she stated that Max himself was surprised that people were still talking about and reliving the events surrounding him and that he had moved on. It is not a healthy condition to be stuck in the past and there is no freedom or freedom of thought in it.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 01:34 PM   #94
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see..
I'm happy to be accommodating, and predictable: "Thank God for the day I left the Local Church!!!"

I probably thank God for getting out of there only slightly less often and fervently than I declare, "Jesus is the Lord!" I'm so thankful... there's an evil, controlling spirit at work there. How else to explain the multiple sins committed by Lee family members, yet Witness Lee sailed on, even while thousands of his followers were ejected from his flock? Jesus said to shout it from the house-tops; he didn't say how many times, so we'll just keep a-shouting.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 01:37 PM   #95
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
........... the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see.....

Drake
I may not read all the threads or go through every post on the threads but Drake, this forum is not a continuous cycle of reruns. This forum is designed to help people who were trapped and have moved on. Their experiences in the the LSM both good, bad and ugly have been very beneficial to countless of people.

Many people who have been trapped in the cultish organization of the LSM have received help and answers to flee the Jezebel spirit controlling the saints in the LSM FROM THIS FORUM!

Those from the LSM who have frequented this forum and heard/felt the pain..oh WAIT.. I don't think the LSM has the ability to feel the pain of people who have been mistreated, abused, hurt, confused by the LSM and Lee's teachings. In any case, I have never seen an LSM defender post a compassionate, thoughtful statement expressing their heartfelt sorrow for what they experienced in the LSM. SHAME ON LEE AND THE LSM..and YOU for stating "and have never moved on. It is my observation that in such a state, it is difficult if not impossible to think for yourself....."

From Philippians 3:13-14
this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
countmeworthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 02:07 PM   #96
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Of course you may interlope..... always.

Whether one walked out like brother aron, or was escorted out like you brother Harold , neither of you ever left. You are physically disconnected yet emotionally and mentally bound to living in the past.... and reliving it .. and have never moved on.
The nice thing about "living in the past" according to Drake, is that one can learn from mistakes, repent when necessary, and minister to others from that learning experience.

The bad thing about "living in the present" according to Drake, is that one can hide from past failures, never has to repent, and only has Lee's stale doctrines to minister to others.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 02:48 PM   #97
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
This forum is designed to help people who were trapped and have moved on. Their experiences in the the LSM both good, bad and ugly have been very beneficial to countless of people.
CMW,

An internet chat forum by design cannot help people navigate out of an experience. That is an artifact of the nature of chat forums. Certainly it can help to know you are not alone through empathy but then something more structured is needed for someone to process out of an experience. I doubt “countless” have been helped as you claim even in an empathetic way. To claim countless are would be an argument from silence.

Yet some, though having “left” the local churches and the ministry that builds them, apparently have never left mentally or emotionally. And the dialogue they have with others who share their experience has not enabled them to move on. So, the threads become “Brady Bunch reruns”, ultimately arriving at the same half dozen blaming complaints (PL, MOTA, Daystar, One Publication, Blended Brothers, etc.) for just about any topic. That appears as a classic description of group think not unlike what we observe in politics as the cause of every ill (e.g. Russians did it).

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 03:17 PM   #98
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Of course you may interlope..... always.

Whether one walked out like brother aron, or was escorted out like you brother Harold , neither of you ever left. You are physically disconnected yet emotionally and mentally bound to living in the past.... and reliving it .. and have never moved on. It is my observation that in such a state, it is difficult if not impossible to think for yourself..... and that is why the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see.

Something Max's daughter said in another post awhile back struck me along this same train of thought..... she stated that Max himself was surprised that people were still talking about and reliving the events surrounding him and that he had moved on. It is not a healthy condition to be stuck in the past and there is no freedom or freedom of thought in it.

Drake
I get what you are saying, but no need to get snarky about it. I too have seen the continuous cycling, that looks like reruns.

I've noticed the cycle when new ones come on the forum, and they are going thru similar cycles as others that have left the LC have gone thru, only just beginning.

Brother Drake, as long as people keep leaving the LC, that cycle will keep happening. Cuz people will keep leaving. And they are helped by repeating it out here.

People that leave aren't stuck. I've seen lots leave, and they go thru changes, and move on. Some don't want to talk about it. Like my friend that came in with me, and became an elder. He's moved on. He's now an American Indian shaman. And he don't look back. He's moved on.

Some do get stuck, and it's sad. I've known those that couldn't handle the resulting inner conflicts, that turn to alcohol to deal with it, and become alcoholics. That one breaks my heart. I spent decades trying to help a brother, having that problem. His wife has moved on, and she too don't like to talk about it. It screwed up their daughter.

True, I'm on the board, and I surely look stuck. My rerun is always : The local church is a cult. In fact, you can easily predict what I'm going to say ... today, tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade.

And I know it's annoying. But somebody has got to warn others. People that are in cults can't see they are in a cult. There's got to be a way to open their eyes. Maybe not, but we can't stop trying. There's precious people in there, and precious ones that might get caught up in it.

Please don't hold it against us. We're just caring, while trying to get thru it too, helping each other, and hopefully others ... that seem to be helped by this forum.

But thanks for pointing out our repetition. That just means more people have left, and are repeating what we went thru.

So gird up your lions brother, it ain't gonna stop.

Thanks for letting me interlope. You're a peach.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 03:43 PM   #99
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Brother awareness,

I appreciate the sincerity in your response.

Yet, the explanation does not align with the arc of discourse here for the reruns are not just when new ones stop in. Rather, a handful of posters reinforce a set of mantras for just about any topic.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 04:01 PM   #100
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Brother awareness,

I appreciate the sincerity in your response.

Yet, the explanation does not align with the arc of discourse here for the reruns are not just when new ones stop in. Rather, a handful of posters reinforce a set of mantras for just about any topic.

Drake
One reason I keep repeating questions is that I'm waiting for someone to come up with an answer. Avoid the question, and I suspect I'm on to something and keep repeating it.

For example, Watchman Nee based his work on some 3,000 Christian 'classics'. How come he got to do that, and we're supposed to read "One Publication Only"? He got to pick and choose among viewpoints, but once he had, no one else got to?

And, if there's One Ministry Per Age, where did the 3,000 books come from? How many different authors did he have there?

These are relevant questions. Ignore them, and we'll keep asking them. Same with Daystar and Timothy Lee, with Philip Lee aka "The Office". Ignore, and we'll remind.

And if it has helped us to get clear, perhaps it will help others as well. What sort of animal they're dealing with, here; what sort of spirit is behind the facade. Maybe it isn't their fault, that they "Just couldn't make it" in the LC; maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with the environment that promised transformation but couldn't deliver.

Maybe. Worth thinking about.

I must have asked this question about 10 times: How come Watchman Nee got to pick from disparate sources, and nobody else does?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 04:58 PM   #101
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
One reason I keep repeating questions is that I'm waiting for someone to come up with an answer. Avoid the question, and I suspect I'm on to something and keep repeating it.
Here's an example: recently we were discussing the LC saying to "get out of your mind"; I brought up some examples of questions that one might have of glaring & obvious contradictions in LC teaching & practice, if one used their critical faculties as God designed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
~How come the movement started by women (Ruth Lee & Elizabeth Fischbacher transcribed & edited WN's spoken messages into printed book form) doesn't allow women as blended co-workers, and no one notices? Because they're brain-dead is why.

~Why does no one notice that a supposed ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) doesn't reconcile with anyone, acting as if it were merely a guanxi network? Because they're trained (conditioned) not to notice anything.

~In one place, WL taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of thousands, and in the testimonies no one got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain?"

People would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.

~Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?
Here was Drake's response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Those items are not relevant to this topic either aron..... just standard talking points you use in most threads....
However, calling brothers in the Lord "brain-dead" does not seem far removed from those solemnly warned in Matthew 5:22-25. Hope you are prepared for that.
Drake
If we ask questions that nobody seems to have answers to, we'll keep asking until someone tries to answer. Seems fair enough to me.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 06:38 PM   #102
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
One reason I keep repeating questions is that I'm waiting for someone to come up with an answer. Avoid the question, and I suspect I'm on to something and keep repeating it.

These are relevant questions. Ignore them, and we'll keep asking them. Same with Daystar and Timothy Lee, with Philip Lee aka "The Office". Ignore, and we'll remind.

And if it has helped us to get clear, perhaps it will help others as well. What sort of animal they're dealing with, here; what sort of spirit is behind the facade. Maybe it isn't their fault, that they "Just couldn't make it" in the LC; maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with the environment that promised transformation but couldn't deliver.
Why is it that the Bible is filled with reruns too?

I keep reading about God, His love, people believing in Him, suffering for Him, repenting for their sins, etc.

Same stuff runs thru from Genesis to Revelation. Sounds like these people are all "stuck in the past." Why do they keep reinforcing that same old set of mantras?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2018, 07:36 PM   #103
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
An internet chat forum by design cannot help people navigate out of an experience. That is an artifact of the nature of chat forums. Certainly it can help to know you are not alone through empathy but then something more structured is needed for someone to process out of an experience. I doubt “countless” have been helped as you claim even in an empathetic way. To claim countless are would be an argument from silence.


Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much:

1. ability to pose questions to a wide range of people for variety and depth of response
2. PM for one-on-one specific care
3. you can leave it the second you need or want to
4. anonymity is a protection, if needed
5. anonymity also allows you to ask embarrassing or difficult questions you otherwise may not feel able to ask to someone's face
6. etc. but you get the point

Can you count the number who have been helped? If not, then, by the very nature of a public internet forum where any and many can read, it is "countless".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Yet some, though having “left” the local churches and the ministry that builds them, apparently have never left mentally or emotionally. And the dialogue they have with others who share their experience has not enabled them to move on. So, the threads become “Brady Bunch reruns”, ultimately arriving at the same half dozen blaming complaints (PL, MOTA, Daystar, One Publication, Blended Brothers, etc.) for just about any topic. That appears as a classic description of group think not unlike what we observe in politics as the cause of every ill (e.g. Russians did it).

Drake

I can't speak to PL or Daystar, but the MOTA, One Pub, and blended brothers are issues that affect and restrict the saints in the local churches TO THIS VERY SECOND. There is good reason for concern to exist about them since they are present realities. There is light outside the local churches and this light is being systematically demonized and kept away from many who are trapped in the LC system but fear for their literal life or safety if they leave ("Did you hear? So-and-so person who left the church a couple years ago died from a head on collision last week" [knowing look and head shake that indicates both parties agree that if that person hadn't left the church to meet with another Christian church then they would still be alive)].

Drake, what do you think about the quotes I posted from One Pub and afaithfulword.org?

Thanks,

Trapped
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 05:27 AM   #104
leastofthese
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 508
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much
I agree 100%
__________________
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
leastofthese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 07:03 AM   #105
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I agree 100%
I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs

Likewise you can see the cultic behavior in the book of Acts with those of the circumcision. Apollos was in error. And the book of James is addressed to " to the twelve tribes which [are] in the dispersion" again, an error on their part. Kudos for James for having a burden for those in this cult, and thank the Lord that there is a word for those to help them come out of a cult, but it is not a strange thing.

Beloved, take not [as] strange the fire [of persecution] which has taken place amongst you for [your] trial, as if a strange thing was happening to you; 1Pet 4:12
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 08:06 AM   #106
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much:
Of course, this forum has been extremely valuable to both current and former members, and it's no wonder that LSM and its surrogates have sought to discredit it on every level. Could they sue this forum and shut it down, they would have done so long ago.

With Lee and LSM it's never been about one off questionable events, but a strategic pattern of deception using the powers of pen and podium. Without this interactive internet forum, we could never have connected millions of dots spanning decades and continents. There's definite reasons why "lurkers" outnumber "posters" like ten to one. Whenever we are dealing with fear-based institutions, anonymity is essential.

Another tremendous eye-opener for me has been the tremendous diversity of direction that former members have gone. Due to the exclusive nature of this ministry of condemnation, ex-members have become atheists, shamans, Jews, LGBT, mental health patients, etc. We must ask why! Why have so many, especially 2nd generation, been totally unprepared for life after LSM? Why so many familial conflicts? Why so much dysfunction? Why so much inner turmoil, even for those whose only goal is to serve the Lord outside of the confines of the LC system?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 09:09 AM   #107
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has.


Can you count the number who have been helped? If not, then, by the very nature of a public internet forum where any and many can read, it is "countless".
Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
There is light outside the local churches and this light is being systematically demonized and kept away from many who are trapped in the LC system but fear for their literal life or safety if they leave ("Did you hear? So-and-so person who left the church a couple years ago died from a head on collision last week" [knowing look and head shake that indicates both parties agree that if that person hadn't left the church to meet with another Christian church then they would still be alive)
I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Drake, what do you think about the quotes I posted from One Pub and afaithfulword.org?

Thanks,
Trapped
I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.

Here are the facts. Living Stream Ministry publishes the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and other writers selectively. It is not their mission to publish everyone who wants to publish something. It's not their obligation to publish anyone's writings even if that person claims to be in fellowship with the ministry. Others may publish and have but in so doing they may not claim themselves representatives of Witness Lee. Neither do they need to apologize for defining that mission or tenaciously sticking to it.

I have hundreds of authors in my library and I read from them almost every week. It's not about control, deprivation, fear mongering, and other colorful schemes you and others attribute to the local churches and to the ministry that builds them. The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Hope that helps.
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 10:26 AM   #108
leastofthese
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 508
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized. ]
Drake, watch out here comes a "drive by"!

Not systematized? You would know better than me, I was only in the LC for a year and that notion was pushed on me twice explicitly, I don't know how many times implicitly. It was also discussed at the dinner table at length with a dozen or so "saints" in Irvine. I guess you just chalk this one up to another isolated incident... At what point are we allowed to look at these isolated incidents and come to the conclusion that there is a systematic problem?
__________________
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
leastofthese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 10:48 AM   #109
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that.

Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.
Drake, can you provide documentation for this fake news story?

In the name of a fair and balanced forum, I want to see some verification in writing for this account from some holiness denomination. I'll take any local news article.

Otherwise what you said is all lies or hearsay. With all of your legal experience, you should know this. And since the "Recovery" is supposed to single-handedly represent "God's Economy" on earth, how can you make excuses by comparing yourselves with "degraded" denominations?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 11:01 AM   #110
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Drake, watch out here comes a "drive by"!

Not systematized? You would know better than me, I was only in the LC for a year and that notion was pushed on me twice explicitly, I don't know how many times implicitly. It was also discussed at the dinner table at length with a dozen or so "saints" in Irvine. I guess you just chalk this one up to another isolated incident... At what point are we allowed to look at these isolated incidents and come to the conclusion that there is a systematic problem?
Exactly LofT. Not systematized.

systematize implies arranging according to a predetermined scheme.

You are describing one of those off the cuff "today Billy Joe MacAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge." type discussions that so often happen around a dinner table while passing biscuits, mashed taters 'n gravy.

Not quite a drive by though because you actually appear to want to engage in a rational conversation this time.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 12:11 PM   #111
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Brother awareness,

I appreciate the sincerity in your response.

Yet, the explanation does not align with the arc of discourse here for the reruns are not just when new ones stop in. Rather, a handful of posters reinforce a set of mantras for just about any topic.

Drake
Thanks for your reply bro Drake. Our stories don't change brother. Sorry if I - we - repeat them. I'm sure you repeat your stories too. But I won't hold it against you.

More than that, I'm sorry you get piled on. But you're the tack that sticks up out here. You prolly expect the hammer.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 12:43 PM   #112
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Interloping again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument
And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 12:51 PM   #113
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Here's an example: recently we were discussing the LC saying to "get out of your mind"; I brought up some examples of questions that one might have of glaring & obvious contradictions in LC teaching & practice, if one used their critical faculties as God designed:

Here was Drake's response:

and

If we ask questions that nobody seems to have answers to, we'll keep asking until someone tries to answer. Seems fair enough to me.
Aron, speaking for myself I have no objection to questions that foster further understanding.... ask away.

Yet, your assumption is wrong as pertains to my responding to your questions. For instance, try to step back and look at these questions in the sample about you provided


"Originally Posted by aron

~How come the movement started by women (Ruth Lee & Elizabeth Fischbacher transcribed & edited WN's spoken messages into printed book form) doesn't allow women as blended co-workers, and no one notices? Because they're brain-dead is why.

~Why does no one notice that a supposed ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) doesn't reconcile with anyone, acting as if it were merely a guanxi network? Because they're trained (conditioned) not to notice anything.

~In one place, WL taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of thousands, and in the testimonies no one got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain?"

People would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.

~Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?"


Those are not questions of inquiry. Those are questions of presumption.... a question like "Aron, are you still beating your wife"? Do you feel a need to answer such a question? Is there an answer that satisfies such a question? There is no answer that can satisfy those questions because the questions are not asked expecting information back. Rather, the questions of presumption you ask are intended to level an accusation and a yes, no, or clarification of the question itself are all responses that legitimize the question. So, I don't tend to answer them not because you are onto something... rather, because they are of a disingenuous design and are merely to set up the next question in the narrative. If you rely on such questions as the evidence that you are onto something then at least as pertains to this duck, you are greatly mistaken. I just don't have an interest in attempting to answer in sincerity to what appears as a sophomoric entrapment question.

Look aron, you're my brother and though I prefer fellowship in the Lord , yet, I am willing to have a vigorous debate about any topic. Still, please don't insult me by asking me to engage in answering questions whose aim is not to further understanding but rather are questions of craft or sophistry. Because of that, I may miss a sincere question along the way and if I do mention it to me in private or in public. I'll do my best to provide my POV.

Thanks
Drake

P.S. the paragraph in blue is a reasonable question and I'd be happy engage on that one if you really care to. Just let me know.
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 01:03 PM   #114
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Interloping again.

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.
It doesn't matter to me either way, awareness. However, if there are droves that have left as you imply (I know of no such thing but for sake of argument) then perhaps they moved on. I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 01:17 PM   #115
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.
Maybe that's what it was like in your LC. In my LC, the local elder tried to give a regional conference on a 10-year-old book by Witness Lee, and was told, "give a conference on the latest publication". He wasn't even allowed to pick what LSM materials to cover!

And Titus Chu tried to get LSM to publish his books? Do tell. And Dong Yu Lan? Interesting. I didn't know any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Why is it that the Bible is filled with reruns too?
Paul said in Galatians 4:19 that he was "in travail again" until they would get Christ formed in them. He had to repeat himself, 'till they got it.

Next verse, he said he'd love to change his tone, in addressing them. But he couldn't change it until they got the message. Keep doing what you're doing, I'll keep repeating the mantra.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 01:26 PM   #116
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Aron, speaking for myself I have no objection to questions that foster further understanding.... ask away.
Yet you did answer; you just didn't address the question. Your answer was an avoidance, a deflection of attention from the substance of the question(which only deepened my suspicions).

Of course I could have asked more politely. Of course I'm a bitter, small-hearted ex-member. But my questions are real. Avoiding the substance doesn't make the questions go away.

A forum is a place to have conversations, to make mistakes and apologize. To forgive others. To testify of the hope within us, not just the hurts. It is a lot of things. Sure, I posture plenty. But the Lord said, "If you forgive others, God will forgive you." So I try not to bear grudges, and hopefully God will have mercy on me.

But the questions remain. There are a lot of people out there with questions. A lot of people.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 01:47 PM   #117
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post

The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish.
Seriously? Have you read what you wrote here?

The One Publication edict was never about what LSM would publish. W. Lee issued this edict firstly in 1986 in order to shut down regional circulations, mostly monthly papers, by other leaders in the Recovery. There were about a half dozen or more of these. W. Lee, being insecure concerning his own ministry, saw these papers as a personal threat to his family business. At that time Bill Freeman of Seattle left, while others simply kowtowed to Lee's demands.

Brothers like Titus Chu agreed to this only out of respect for W. Lee. After Lee passed, TC decided that what he had to minister was important enough to print in the vacuum left by W. Lee. Like thousands of ministers before him, the Lord put the burden on his heart to publish his ministry. TC never asked LSM to publish his books. TC found his own publisher.

The Blendeds then saw this as a threat to their power and their bottom line. The President of LSM Benson Philips saw this as a business decision. Either live with lost revenue, or expel TC and like-minded brothers in the Midwest. Once they negotiated a back room deal with Barker and Reetzke of Chicago, they saw the opportunity as ripe for action.

Thus the One Publication edict was a divisive work of the flesh. It placed LSM's financial needs above the needs and liberties of God's people. Like Diotrephes of old (3 John 9), LSM loved to be first, and not only that, they demanded that none be second or third. Like the Judaizers of old, LSM was willing to violate N.T. oneness of the body of Christ in order to bring all the LC's under subjection of their false authority. Like the Popes of the past two Millennia, LSM supposes that authority can be passed on by decree, but God is no respecter of persons. His Son alone is the Head of the body, not Pope, not Vicar, not Holy See, not "Seer of the divine revelation," not Blendeds, and definitely not their MOTA.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 02:44 PM   #118
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Yet you did answer; you just didn't address the question. Your answer was an avoidance, a deflection of attention from the substance of the question(which only deepened my suspicions).

Of course I could have asked more politely. Of course I'm a bitter, small-hearted ex-member. But my questions are real. Avoiding the substance doesn't make the questions go away.


A forum is a place to have conversations, to make mistakes and apologize. To forgive others. To testify of the hope within us, not just the hurts. It is a lot of things. Sure, I posture plenty. But the Lord said, "If you forgive others, God will forgive you." So I try not to bear grudges, and hopefully God will have mercy on me.

But the questions remain. There are a lot of people out there with questions. A lot of people.
Well okay, aron. Maybe you really do want a point of view about some things.

Let's hit the reset button. Here's my offer.

I'll give my personal point of view and best response to your questions of inquiry about the subject of this forum.

Questions of presumption and accusation go into the bit bucket.... and I'll let you know when I detect them. Questions posed like "why are you brain-dead?" fall into that category. If you were really asking a question in sincerity but I misread your intent then you can clarify or restate the question and I'll do my best to answer it.

I'm not asking you for a sweet exchange... just a genuine one.

Fair enough?

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 04:08 PM   #119
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??
I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 04:21 PM   #120
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.
Sigh......please excuse my erroneous tense usage. Helpful in the process of navigatING me out then, sheesh. With this kind of thing there are actually levels of navigating out, and this forum has helped navigate me out of some initial levels, that is a fact.

The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.

If this forum wasn't helping people get out, DCP wouldn't spend any time monitoring it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.
This isn't a good comparison. In your example, the warning is against a sinful action - drinking to excess and then driving - with a direct negative result, the responsibility of which is not attributed to God. Anyone, Christian or not, in the LCs or out of it, would warn against that.

In the many examples former and current LCers have posted, the warning is that you seriously risk God arranging for your death if you leave the local churches. Couldn't be more different.

If your example stated "don't leave the denomination or you might get in a car crash and die", okay, but it doesn't make giving that impression to people right in any way, whether it's in the LC or in a denomination.

My testimony is not an isolated incident. It occurred repeatedly throughout my decades in the church. Many others have experienced the same thing, as evidenced on this forum. It is quite a shock to find a group of people you have never met from across decades and places who have also experienced and lived under the exact same "God will strike you down if you leave." This, to any logical person, would indicate a systemic form of control based on fear. Or at the very least a thought from the pit of hell that was freely allowed to be promulgated throughout the churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."
I didn't ask what you thought of my conclusions. I asked what you thought of the quotes I posted. Yes, they are selected quotes because otherwise I would have to post the entire document again, but those quotes are there in black and white, and I'm curious what you would have to say about the direct quotes specifically.

You also only addressed the One Pub generally and did not say anything about quotes from afaithfulword.org concerning Lee as the wise master builder who ended God's overarching principle throughout the ages of there being a minister of the age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.
1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy.

2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?

3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?

4. The One Publication had every opportunity to make clear that it is only talking about what LSM will publish. That is an incredibly clear statement that a 12 year old could make in one short paragraph that no one would or should have an argument with. Paragraphs 4-5 do touch on it, however inadequately and clumsily. Somehow, though, an entire group of educated men could not make that very, very clear statement in pages upon pages of a boggy swamp of meandering text? Here, let me do it for you: "Living Stream Ministry exists to record and publish the ministry as interpreted and presented by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Living Stream Ministry will only publish works by these two saints. Anyone else who wishes to publish anything should seek to use another publisher and is not considered to be part of Nee or Lee's ministries." Easy. Done. Sign off and walk away.

5. The first sentence of the 6th paragraph states: "At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us."

At first blush this sounds good (in that it seems like there is an opening for others), but the problem is they added the phrase "among us." If this is simply LSM stating what LSM will publish, and that what they publish is referred to as "the one publication", then the phrase "among us" has no business being there. "Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery.

6. "While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied."

Again, "while we all have a basic right to publish" sounds good at first blush, look what it is followed by: "we are governed by a higher vision". The principle this lays out is "yes, you have a right to publish BUT if you were really under the cross you won't."

What does "we in the Lord's recovery have been 'restricted in one publication'" mean, Drake?

Just because some saints have been nurtured and supplied by Nee/Lee's one publication, gives absolutely no credence whatsoever to the next sentence that "the benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied." This is like saying "for years sweet potatoes have supplied me with many nutrients. The benefits of being restricted to only sweet potatoes can hardly be denied." I mean....come on.

I will stop there for now, although I could keep going.

Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Here are the facts. Living Stream Ministry publishes the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and other writers selectively. It is not their mission to publish everyone who wants to publish something. It's not their obligation to publish anyone's writings even if that person claims to be in fellowship with the ministry. Others may publish and have but in so doing they may not claim themselves representatives of Witness Lee. Neither do they need to apologize for defining that mission or tenaciously sticking to it.
See how easy and clear that was? No one would or should have a problem with that! Why didn't the One Pub say that? Your 6 sentence paragraph is all that needed to be said, if that indeed is all that the One Pub is about. But it's not......The One Pub is saying and trying to do AND RESTRICT so much more, which is why many have a big problem with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I have hundreds of authors in my library and I read from them almost every week. It's not about control, deprivation, fear mongering, and other colorful schemes you and others attribute to the local churches and to the ministry that builds them. The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.
Oh I definitely do read what I want to and what the Lord leads me to, and I'm not trapped by the One Pub at all. But the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position. For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 04:44 PM   #121
leastofthese
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 508
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.
It is so important to warn others about the LSM and there is almost no recent content for the poor college student that find themselves in this group. Plus new folks come along every so often that can benefit from those who have been on the inside and seen the LSM for what it really is.

I agree it is also fun/interesting to hear from others. My final months in the LSM I felt as if I was going crazy - the blatant deception and corrosive culture is far from being the Ministey of the Age - maybe quite worse. Go figure, I leave the LSM church and find this website where others have also seen what I saw!

I don’t talk about my time in the LSM outside of this forum. Quite frankly it’s embarrassing and I’m far too prideful to be associate with such a group, plus unless someone has been in a cult, they wouldn’t understand anyway. The entire premise that Witness Lee promotes is intriguing until you understand the reality of it. Either he was the MOTA and his ministry is the MOTA or he wasn’t - and it isn’t.

Read as much as you can about the ministry, visit their churches if you need to, seek the council of a strong believer outside of the LSM as an unbiased source of guidance. Most importantly read scripture and pray that the Spirit will lead you to truth. I believe the Lord will be faithful in that, he was to me, and for that I’m grateful.
__________________
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
leastofthese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 04:49 PM   #122
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP........For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.
Trapped,

Thanks for your note. There is no rush so if you have more to say then when you have time post it and we can discuss. Lay it all out.

Yet, don't imagine that DCP is overly interested in monitoring this forum..... at least, if you are basing that on what I say. My viewpoints are my own and do not represent anybody or any group. Strictly, this is the humble view of a simple duck enjoying the lovely place referred to in song as God's green garden yet with a pond. That is what I said when I came to this forum and its still true.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 05:08 PM   #123
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Trapped,

Thanks for your note. There is no rush so if you have more to say then when you have time post it and we can discuss. Lay it all out.

Yet, don't imagine that DCP is overly interested in monitoring this forum..... at least, if you are basing that on what I say. My viewpoints are my own and do not represent anybody or any group. Strictly, this is the humble view of a simple duck enjoying the lovely place referred to in song as God's green garden yet with a pond. That is what I said when I came to this forum and its still true.

Drake

Drake,

As you can imagine, going through the One Pub is time consuming. I would prefer you respond to what I have written so far (as your time allows, of course) before I invest more time. I do not have so many extraneous hours in my day that I can devote to writing pages upon pages on the entire One Pub when what I've said already is sufficient. I've put time into what I've said so far. If you can respond to it and there is profit to the discussion, great. Then I can have a way to keep going to lay more out.

Trapped
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 06:10 PM   #124
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Well okay, aron. Maybe you really do want a point of view about some things.

Let's hit the reset button. Here's my offer.

I'll give my personal point of view and best response to your questions of inquiry about the subject of this forum.

Questions of presumption and accusation go into the bit bucket.... and I'll let you know when I detect them. Questions posed like "why are you brain-dead?" fall into that category. If you were really asking a question in sincerity but I misread your intent then you can clarify or restate the question and I'll do my best to answer it.

I'm not asking you for a sweet exchange... just a genuine one.

Fair enough?


Drake
Did the Lord Jesus agree to all of the many demands of the Pharisees before He decided to pepper them with questions? I think not.

I have no illusion that any my posts will persuade the Ole Duck Drake to reconsider his ways. He decided long ago to shun me on the forum, and I am quite peaceful with his decision. I have been liberated from the bondage of trying to influence those at LSM.

I have witnessed the spiritual death and destruction by operatives from LSM first hand. They care for their business model and not God's people.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 06:43 PM   #125
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Drake,

As you can imagine, going through the One Pub is time consuming. I would prefer you respond to what I have written so far (as your time allows, of course) before I invest more time. I do not have so many extraneous hours in my day that I can devote to writing pages upon pages on the entire One Pub when what I've said already is sufficient. I've put time into what I've said so far. If you can respond to it and there is profit to the discussion, great. Then I can have a way to keep going to lay more out.

Trapped
Okay, sure, Trapped.

I, like you, have limited time. So my responses will be bite size like a conversation and not dissertationesque. We can always go back and pick other points up.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 07:17 PM   #126
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.
Trapped,

This may seem like a minor point in this discourse but it isn’t. The reason that it is a very important point is that many posters in this forum fall into the same false argument from silence. What do you consider countless? You said numerous posts. Numerous is not countless. Was it 5? 10? 100? Even if you point to a 1000 passerby’s that is not countless. The fact is you, I, nor anybody else can point to countless anything. I would not even use the descriptor “countless” to describe the total number of members in the local churches worldwide. Would you? If there are not countless members, current and former, in the local churches, then one cannot reasonably argue that there are countless current and former members coming to this forum! The countless argument fails on the math alone.

Now, if one argues that countless means any number beyond what could be counted on one’s fingers and toes then i’ll concede the point. However, countless in the context of this topic is simply an exaggeration used for underscoring one’s point. I get that but beyond that it is simply an argument from silence. I’ll yield to your “numerous” though frankly I can only recall a dozen or two at the most.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 07:53 PM   #127
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Trapped,

This may seem like a minor point in this discourse but it isn’t. The reason that it is a very important point is that many posters in this forum fall into the same false argument from silence. What do you consider countless? You said numerous posts. Numerous is not countless. Was it 5? 10? 100? Even if you point to a 1000 passerby’s that is not countless. The fact is you, I, nor anybody else can point to countless anything. I would not even use the descriptor “countless” to describe the total number of members in the local churches worldwide. Would you? If there are not countless members, current and former, in the local churches, then one cannot reasonably argue that there are countless current and former members coming to this forum! The countless argument fails on the math alone.

Now, if one argues that countless means any number beyond what could be counted on one’s fingers and toes then i’ll concede the point. However, countless in the context of this topic is simply an exaggeration used for underscoring one’s point. I get that but beyond that it is simply an argument from silence. I’ll yield to your “numerous” though frankly I can only recall a dozen or two at the most.

Drake

The meaning I had assigned to "countless" is more like "many but uncountable", mostly by virtue of it being an internet forum. Not countless in the sense of the sheer number who have been helped is so vast it is impossible to count, which I don't believe is the case, even though its impact is not insignificant to those who it has helped, and I believe it has helped many. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the U.S. there exists an approximate count of saints, so as you said, if the whole is countable, then the lesser part who leave cannot therefore be "countless" or "uncountable". I had interpreted "countless" as "unable to be counted", since really, we don't have a way of counting, which I think is evident from my posts where I reference people being helped who never spoke a peep here.

But yeah, I don't think we disagree on this, just maybe a slightly different interpretation of a word that once discussed is made clear.

Thanks.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2018, 07:54 PM   #128
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Okay, sure, Trapped.

I, like you, have limited time. So my responses will be bite size like a conversation and not dissertationesque. We can always go back and pick other points up.

Drake

Okey dokey.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 08:38 AM   #129
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
"Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery...

.. the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position.
Hear, hear. The "Spiritual Authority" in the LC is self-created and then imposed on others, who accept it because, well, it's "spiritual authority". Doesn't matter if it is illogical and capricious, if it's at variance with the Bible and even one's conscience. It is the vehicle for the kingdom of the self, writ large. As Jesus repeatedly taught, it's "the way of the gentiles", but it should not be that way among the disciples. (Matt 20:25,26; cf 1 Pet 5:3)
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 09:16 AM   #130
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Only one of the countless WordSmiths at LSM's DCP could muddy our discussion of spiritual authority and divert our attention to the actual meaning of the word "countless."

Shall we also discuss the true meaning of what the word "is" is? As in what "is" the one publication policy?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 09:27 AM   #131
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Hear, hear. The "Spiritual Authority" in the LC is self-created and then imposed on others, who accept it because, well, it's "spiritual authority". Doesn't matter if it is illogical and capricious, if it's at variance with the Bible and even one's conscience. It is the vehicle for the kingdom of the self, writ large. As Jesus repeatedly taught, it's "the way of the gentiles", but it should not be that way among the disciples. (Matt 20:25,26; cf 1 Pet 5:3)
The Blendeds build their One Publication Policy on the sinking sand of Lee's teachings, not the scripture.

Supposedly W. Lee built his One Publication Policy on the practices of Nee and Lee in China during the 1930's and 1940's.

But if we read Nee's books during this period, such as TNCCL and Further Talks, we learn that Nee never mentioned this Policy. On the contrary Nee taught that LC's should be open to many ministries, and according to the leading of their elders, should be able to choose and reject any ministry they desire.

Compare that to afaithfulword.com
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 03:36 PM   #132
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
The meaning I had assigned to "countless" is more like "many but uncountable", mostly by virtue of it being an internet forum. Not countless in the sense of the sheer number who have been helped is so vast it is impossible to count, which I don't believe is the case, even though its impact is not insignificant to those who it has helped, and I believe it has helped many. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the U.S. there exists an approximate count of saints, so as you said, if the whole is countable, then the lesser part who leave cannot therefore be "countless" or "uncountable". I had interpreted "countless" as "unable to be counted", since really, we don't have a way of counting, which I think is evident from my posts where I reference people being helped who never spoke a peep here.

But yeah, I don't think we disagree on this, just maybe a slightly different interpretation of a word that once discussed is made clear.

Thanks.
The difference in viewpoint explains the disconnect. I had the Abrahamic view -" look at the stars and see if you count them", or "your seed will be as the sand of the sea".. yours was the view of many but unable to count.

Thanks for that clarification.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 04:08 PM   #133
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

These first three points are similar. I'll start with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy.
Trapped, this is an argument of semantics. We know who authored the document. They don't need to add their name in the title. I see no infraction in the title... and if there were it doesn't even rise to the level of the crime of spitting on the sidewalk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?
Because there is very little distinction? Or if there is a distinction it is the one publishes and distributes the ministry and the other(s) references that ministry in their distinctive ministries. There are many parts of the ministry covering different aspects. LSM the publishing arm and the trainings, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-studyof the Bible broadcast, etc. and the serving ones sometimes but not always overlap in some of those aspects.

You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?
At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

Thanks
Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 05:07 PM   #134
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.
The royal "we"; everyone in LC-land knows what it means. In cultic fringe groups one eventually gets that there are two sets of meanings: one for the public 'face', and another for internal use. So Witness Lee could tell Judge Seyranian, "Here, we don't control anyone", while Ray Graver was busy telling Bill Mallon, "Here, we do what we are told".

When you see words like "restriction" used in the LC, please understand that there's an external "face" meaning and an internal "operational" meaning. The semantics of cult-speak, as it were.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 08:12 PM   #135
leastofthese
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 508
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The royal "we"; everyone in LC-land knows what it means.
See and I thought it was “Countess”, which is also very confusing, and looking back - doesn’t make any sense.

Glad Drake cleared that one up for everyone.
__________________
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
leastofthese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 09:10 PM   #136
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,743
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Brother Drake, what happens if we don't adhere to the one publication?
__________________

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 11:27 PM   #137
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 207
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Trapped said: "1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Trapped, this is an argument of semantics. We know who authored the document. They don't need to add their name in the title. I see no infraction in the title... and if there were it doesn't even rise to the level of the crime of spitting on the sidewalk.
You are right! It is an argument of semantics! "Semantics" is a branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. And proper communication is all about the meaning of words. So this is indeed an argument concerning meaning. Thanks for defining what kind of argument it is.

What is the meaning of the phrase "in the Lord's recovery"? What does that mean? I will leave a blank space for you to answer that: ______________________________________________

Why not use the phrase "in the Living Stream Ministry", which is the thing that is actually doing the publication work? This choice of phrase is not insignificant because the reach of the two "entities" (for lack of a better word, although calling TLR "an entity" isn't right, I just don't know what else to use) is vastly different, and is very much at the heart of the matter.

1. LSM: a publishing house located in Anaheim, CA.

Scope: the one building on one street in one city in which it resides (or however it is set up these days).

2. The Lord's recovery: a phrase bandied around "among us" to mean the local churches. I have been "in the Lord's recovery" for a long time and no amount of wordsmithing, protesting, deflection, denying, or arguing will change the fact that "the Lord's recovery" refers to the "proper" local churches around the globe. Period.

"The Lord's recovery " = "we in the church life" = "the local churches" = "the saints" = "those in the the central lane of the ministry" = "those who receive LSM's announcements for the semi-annual trainings" = "those who are on localchurches.org", etc, etc, etc. All referring to the same conglomeration of people.

Scope: worldwide to include hundreds of thousands of people.

By titling the letter "Publication Work in the Lord's recovery", it is communicated right out of the gate that the practices put forth in the document of "being restricted in one publication" are to be adopted by those hundreds of thousands of people in the Lord's recovery. If it is just LSM stating that it will only publish Nee or Lee, which is what you said it is, "in the Lord's recovery" has no business being there.

--------

Trapped said: "2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Because there is very little distinction? Or if there is a distinction it is the one publishes and distributes the ministry and the other(s) references that ministry in their distinctive ministries. There are many parts of the ministry covering different aspects. LSM the publishing arm and the trainings, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-study of the Bible broadcast, etc. and the serving ones sometimes but not always overlap in some of those aspects.
I believe the group of blended co-workers are composed of LSM and non-LSM brothers. Some in the group are representatives of LSM (i.e. are on LSM payroll, have an @lsm.org email address, are authorized to speak as representatives of LSM), while the others in the group are not, and have no legal affiliation with LSM. "LSM" and "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery" are two distinct sets of people, yes with some overlap, but they are not the same.

If this innocent document is just LSM stating that LSM will only publish Nee or Lee, why would a group of co-workers that include brothers who have no authorization to speak for LSM be the signatories? Because LSM's legal and spiritual authority stops at their own doors. But the co-workers/brothers/today's-apostles' authority, in practice, reaches into each of the local churches.....thus bringing the proclaimed restriction into the laps of each local church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?
In your analogy, as I understand it,
the various LSM-related entities are akin to the various colleges in a university, and the blended co-workers are akin to university management but who are involved in different colleges (LSM-related entities).

In this analogy, the students and alumni are the saints in the local churches. If the university is for the producing and building up of educated graduates (i.e. if the ministry is for the churches), why is the university sending a letter out to it's alumni telling them they should be restricted to only read what that university puts out? If the university did a good job, the students should be amply equipped to discern for themselves what will further their academic/human (spiritual) growth.

---------

Trapped said: "3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.


This is cute, but "at minimum" is not the whole answer. "Among us" means "among the saints in the local churches". The phrase "among us" is used 23 times in One Pub. In the 8th paragraph we finally get a taste of a definition of what "among us" means:

"But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches."


"Among us" means among all the local churches. "Among us" most certainly does not just mean the blended co-workers.

What does it mean that "...we have long realized there should be one publication among us [the local churches]"?

Thanks,

Trapped
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 02:13 AM   #138
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??
Matthew 18:31 "When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened."

What do you think the king said? "Why are you are just wallowing in gall and rancor! Get over it!"

Do you think the king would put up with reports of unrighteousness? Of course not! Yet we're supposed to pretend the LCs didn't happen, and just "get over it"? Or how about, "Oh, we don't care for right and wrong! We just care for life!"

Many do quietly move on, of course. But with some, what they saw and heard bothers their conscience, so they say something. They find a pubic forum like this, and "tell it to the church"; and if others pooh-pooh their complaints, they'll repeat them, until they feel they're heard.

Now, having said that, maybe I've already been "heard", and am merely projecting my own unmet needs, resentments and anxieties here on this forum onto "the ministry", just as I hold that Witness Lee did with his ministry onto "the church" vis-a-vis "degraded Christianity". But to my credit, I'm not charging $$ for my writing, nor propping up my dead-beat kids via the sale of trinkets on this website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day Adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million Americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs
The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 05:56 AM   #139
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.
So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result. I would say what I wrote on James is a comprehensive discussion on what I learned, how I was helped and how I matured as a result.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:00 AM   #140
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.
This post is entirely deceptive. This One Publication "Policy" was an edict, not just for all those on the LSM paid staff, but for all those related to LC's around the globe. The actual edict to the workers around the globe was not just to stop publishing, but to stop ministering, to cease and desist, and allow LSM to rule all the LC's. Read the warning letters sent to Titus Chu by these "co-workers." LSM's threats of takeover not just affected TC's publishing interests, but impacted every Midwest elder and LC. Every Midwest elder was to be brought under LSM's dominion.

Don't believe me? Go back and read these letters. And take a good hard look at the callous attitude displayed by these "coworkers" towards the actual churches and the saints. But make no mistake about it. What LSM has done was no different than what the Judaizers did to Paul and his ministry among the Gentiles. The names and the details may have changed, but the motives and the methods have remained the same.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:16 AM   #141
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:21 AM   #142
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result.
I used to share on what I've learned; outside the LC. But mostly it wasn't received so I kept my focus here on "escaping the LC mind-set." I left physically, but it took at least 5 years to get the ministry voices out of my head.

Any number of people might benefit to share what we have learned from our experiences. Here is an unbeliever:

Quote:
Originally Posted by For science View Post
I have a general interest in cults. Personally, I feel that LSM is a cult. Obviously, it is not of the Jim Jones variety. But LSM-type cults are by far the norm, not the Jonestown and Heaven's Gate extremes.

I felt the accounts given by the survivors in this forum were very articulate and educational. Thank you for all the time you spent telling your stories. This is the best cult-survivor forum I have seen so far, among ones that are specific to a given cult.

I am not religious, but I am interested in the science behind religion. By that I mean what biologically goes on in the brains of people who experience religious experiences such as: being saved, getting enlightened etc. Aside from that, I am fascinated by cult psychology and group think that are innate to us all since I feel that understanding these is critical to growing as a civilization. It effects politics, war and even simply being a consumer in the marketplace.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:29 AM   #143
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake
I think Matthew 18 is quite applicable to a discussion forum of an abusive Christian sect. Witness Lee poisoned his captive flock by telling them over and over how "Christianity" (every other Christian ministry and group) was "deformed" and "satanic" and "fallen" and "twisted" and "darkened" and so forth. Everyone else was "fallen Babylon"; but the LC was supposedly the pure Church, spotless and waiting for the Bridegroom. God sees no iniquity in Israel [read: the LC].

So when Witness Lee put his sons on the flock and made it a family business, with the chaos that ensued, shouldn't someone say, "Hey, this looks just like Mystery Babylon to me!" Shouldn't we "tell it to the church" a la Matthew 18:17? Yes!

I think forgiveness in vv 21,22 is assumed to be corresponding to repentance. Without repentance, the telling of one or two then becomes a broadcast. (vv 16,17)

I'll never forget the Chinese brother who told the American brother, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". Then he clapped his hand over his mouth & said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

No, he should have said that. He should have said that, repeatedly, and loudly, until the problem was resolved. If you know of an evil, and don't warn others, you become responsible for the destruction that follows.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:32 AM   #144
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.
LSM with her Blendeds demand forgiveness from others they have offended, but refuse to repent to these ones. They banish brothers, yet refuse to hear them.
  • Consider Jane Anderson. The Blendeds refused to even acknowledge her.
  • Consider Steve Isitt. Chief Blended Ron Kangas called him a "Man Of Death," without even hearing him.
  • Consider Titus Chu. He was condemned and quarantined at the Whistler ITERO in absentia.
Obviously you are going to interpret Matthew 18 differently. And you missed v.17, "If the [Blendeds] refuse to hear, tell it to the church."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:34 AM   #145
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
LSM with her Blendeds demand forgiveness from others they have offended, but refuse to repent to these ones. They banish brothers, yet refuse to hear them.
I made the point also from 2 Corinthians 5. Where is the reconciliation with this group? Where is the "ministry of reconciliation"? Who do they ever forgive?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:45 AM   #146
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I'll never forget the Chinese brother who told the American brother, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". Then he clapped his hand over his mouth & said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

No, he should have said that. He should have said that, repeatedly, and loudly, until the problem was resolved. If you know of an evil, and don't warn others, you become responsible for the destruction that follows.
That was Samuel Cheng, who was Watchman Nee's brother-in-law, who warned Don Hardy back in the '60's. Brother Don later lamented that the Taiwan brothers, due to dangerously strong influences from their Chinese culture, never warned the American saints of the many dangers associated with the Lee family, especially his sons Phillip and Timothy.

Looking back, we now have half a century of casualties of American saints because that warning was hushed. Think about how many dangers and offenses would have been prevented had Witness Lee heeded this warning.

I often tell others that the only reason we should ever raise our voice is for danger. When others are in danger, we have an obligation to speak up. This forum allows us to "raise our voices."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 07:49 AM   #147
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I made the point also from 2 Corinthians 5. Where is the reconciliation with this group? Where is the "ministry of reconciliation"? Who do they ever forgive?
Au contraire, they have become the "ministry of condemnation" written on tablets of stone by a single publisher. 2 Corinthians 3
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 08:09 AM   #148
Drake
Member
 
Drake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,965
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I think forgiveness in vv 21,22 is assumed to be corresponding to repentance. Without repentance, the telling of one or two then becomes a broadcast. (vv 16,17)
Aron,

70x7 indicates there is no true repentance... the ownership falls to the offended.. in this case Peter who probably had a certain brother in mind and was keeping track thinking 7 offenses are enough. The Lord corrected that idea.

Secondly, this is not a church. I once had the opportunity to visit Corinth and near the center is a public square with an elevated platform where all civil topics were discussed. It is highly probable this is the spot that Paul also spoke to the unbelievers and the public as was his practice. This forum is like that place. That was not the church and neither is this chat forum. Even though the Church in Corinth had awful problems Paul did not deal with them from that platform.

Drake
Drake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 08:28 AM   #149
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake
A teacher of the word is subject to a much stricter judgement.

Think of the hypocrisy, WL wrote a biography of Watchman Nee, yet if others also write biographies that are less flattering they are "airing their grievances in public". If that were true you set yourself up as judge to write history.

Witness Lee also set himself forth as an example. If he can give his life as an example to others then it is right that others can also discuss his life and example. You can't discuss Witness Lee's life without discussing LSM and the publication policy that affected all saints and was the basis to excommunicate Titus Chu.

Also the portion you quote is in context. The person went to them and told them their sin. Now there are two possible responses, they refused to hear, in which case you move on to tell it to others and ultimately to the church. The other possibility is that they do hear you and beg forgiveness. If that happens there are two possibilities, the person forgives them or else they are self righteous and refuse. This chapter is balanced. If you seek out the person who sinned and they repent you are obligated to forgive them just as Christ forgave you. If they refuse to hear you then you are obligated to ultimately tell it to the church.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 10:56 AM   #150
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
70x7 indicates there is no true repentance...
Dumbest thing I ever heard.

With the leaders at LSM, however, we never even got a phony repentance.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 11:01 AM   #151
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,571
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I once had the opportunity to visit Corinth and near the center is a public square with an elevated platform where all civil topics were discussed.
While I was in the LC's, I only knew of one brother who visited Greece, studying the Greek language.

I also only knew of one brother who ever spoke of kundalini spirits related to glossa.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 11:02 AM   #152
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,370
Default Re: afazio - Spiritual Authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That was Samuel Cheng, who was Watchman Nee's brother-in-law, who warned Don Hardy back in the '60's. Brother Don later lamented that the Taiwan brothers, due to dangerously strong influences from their Chinese culture, never warned the American saints of the many dangers associated with the Lee family, especially his sons Phillip and Timothy.

Looking back, we now have half a century of casualties of American saints because that warning was hushed. Think about how many dangers and offenses would have been prevented had Witness Lee heeded this warning.

I often tell others that the only reason we should ever raise our voice is for danger. When others are in danger, we have an obligation to speak up. This forum allows us to "raise our voices."
Some are intimating that we are facing God's judgment, for judging our brother, and "God's humble bondslave" at that. I would say rather we would be judged if we knew something was wrong, and kept our mouths shut. Our experiences are for something. Let's not pretend they never happened.

And no, I didn't lose money on Timothy Lee's Daystar, but others did, and testified. I also wasn't groped by Philip Lee, but others were, and it has been covered on this forum.

Witness Lee wasn't qualified to be elder in a local assembly, per Titus 1:6. Am I "wallowing in gall" to bring this up? If someone had brought this up, and Witness Lee was properly demoted, I wouldn't have to. Nobody did, and he wasn't, so I bring it up.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:26 AM.


3.8.9