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Old 11-22-2018, 11:17 PM   #1
Gubei
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Default How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Hi brothers and sisters,

I'm a mid-aged Korean brother who used to post here about 10 years ago (mostly criticizing LC practices). I started my LC life in Seoul about 30 years ago when I was a college student, and was one of leading young brothers among college students. I kept serving my Lord with secular job, but I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago. I've just enjoyed reading the Bible, praying etc alone only with my family since then. (Quite oddly there have been almost no concerned brothers who tried to recover me. )

Recently, several old acquaintances in the LCs who were in the position of leadership abruptly began to contact me for various reasons, and I found the situation of the LCs in Korea have gone from bad to worse, with serious leadership chaos and without the Lord's blessing, proven by the fact that the # of meeting attendants keep decreasing.

Currently, I'm curious whether there is any good way to rescue some brothers and sisters who I guess by now feel bad for the LCs unreasonable and unbiblical practice. Of course I know if I try in a naive way then I will end up with no fruits and only with all the bad labeling like rebellion etc.
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Hi Gubei, could you possibly begin to visit a couple that you think is not meeting any longer and try to build up relationship with them and have prayer and fellowship together? More and more understanding might come forth. I just wonder about this to begin with.

It seems you could be an edifying factor to them and also to others. Maybe staying in contact here would also be good.
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Old 11-23-2018, 08:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

I agree with what Indiana said for Gubei's current situation.

Gubei, what was the weird incident you mentioned?

"I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago." by Gubei.

God bless,
from least in this forum.
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Old 11-25-2018, 04:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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Hi Gubei, could you possibly begin to visit a couple that you think is not meeting any longer and try to build up relationship with them and have prayer and fellowship together? More and more understanding might come forth. I just wonder about this to begin with.

It seems you could be an edifying factor to them and also to others. Maybe staying in contact here would also be good.
Thanks, Indiana. will do as you suggested!
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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I agree with what Indiana said for Gubei's current situation.

Gubei, what was the weird incident you mentioned?

"I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago." by Gubei.

God bless,
from least in this forum.
Thanks, least.

I PMed you on the weird incident.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubei View Post
I'm a mid-aged Korean brother who used to post here about 10 years ago.. I started my LC life in Seoul about 30 years ago when I was a college student, and was one of leading young brothers among college students. I kept serving my Lord with secular job, but I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago. I've just enjoyed reading the Bible, praying only with my family since then.

Recently.. I found the situation of the LCs in Korea have gone from bad to worse, with serious leadership chaos and without the Lord's blessing, proven by the fact that the # of meeting attendants keep decreasing.. is any good way to rescue some brothers and sisters who I guess by now feel bad for the LCs unreasonable and unbiblical practice..
My advice would be: first, you can only minister what you have. They already know the condition of the LC; what are you going to present them as an alternative? One of the worst things the LC leadership did was quench the seeking spirit. The “church life” and the “ministry” were supposedly one-stop shopping; or “all-inclusive”.

Jesus taught, “Seek and ye shall find”; that has never been more important than today. LC leaders convinced the saints, “There is nothing out there” for them. So even if the current status is poor, they are kept in immobility, and passivity. You need to present them with a fresh breeze of the Spirit of God.

So if you're desperately seeking Him with your whole heart/soul/strength, then you have his promise that the finding will follow. The LC song, “We have ended our search” was a dead-end. Literally.
Quote:
O home in the church,
Where we’ve ended our search
With the brothers rejoicing all day;
Where Christ is our life,
And we’re through with all strife,
Now we’re home, hallelujah, to stay!

Home, home in the church;
Yes, it’s here that we’ve ended our search;
And through all our days
We will shout to His praise,
“Hallelujah for Christ and the church!”
The Christian life is a seeking life. Don’t quit till it’s over.

Second, and related, you have a specific role to play in God’s kingdom. You alone are ‘you’. There is no other. In God’s wisdom, you have a job to do. Minister to others, LC and not, in the sphere of that specific job. “Do business until I come”; only you can do the ‘business’ in your hands.
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Old 11-25-2018, 02:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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My advice would be: first, you can only minister what you have. They already know the condition of the LC; what are you going to present them as an alternative? One of the worst things the LC leadership did was quench the seeking spirit. The “church life” and the “ministry” were supposedly one-stop shopping; or “all-inclusive”.

Jesus taught, “Seek and ye shall find”; that has never been more important than today. LC leaders convinced the saints, “There is nothing out there” for them. So even if the current status is poor, they are kept in immobility, and passivity. You need to present them with a fresh breeze of the Spirit of God.

So if you're desperately seeking Him with your whole heart/soul/strength, then you have his promise that the finding will follow. The LC song, “We have ended our search” was a dead-end. Literally.

The Christian life is a seeking life. Don’t quit till it’s over.

Second, and related, you have a specific role to play in God’s kingdom. You alone are ‘you’. There is no other. In God’s wisdom, you have a job to do. Minister to others, LC and not, in the sphere of that specific job. “Do business until I come”; only you can do the ‘business’ in your hands.
Thanks, Aron

I totally agree with you. Me myself has been enjoying our Lord apart from the LC life, which is naturally possible for my brothers and sisters still in the LC but I'm afraid they would not venture to go far enough away from the LC.

My "strategy" to rescue some, which I am not sure is my new burden from the Lord, is translating good English materials into Korean for free distribution to them.

Can you pop up any good stuff for me to translate? It's impossible to translate this forum from A to Z. So, I need brief but powerful ones.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubei View Post
My "strategy" to rescue some, which I am not sure is my new burden from the Lord, is translating good English materials into Korean for free distribution to them.

Can you pop up any good stuff for me to translate? It's impossible to translate this forum from A to Z. So, I need brief but powerful ones.
I would start with the testimony of Witness Lee's closest co-worker, who translated his hymnal into English. His name is John Ingalls and his writing is under the "history" section on this forum of writings of former leading ones.

It is called "Speaking the Truth In Love". I would translate the whole thing, and then excerpt what is relevant. If you see the behaviour of Witness Lee and his family it's not much different than from David Yonggi Cho in Korea. Nepotism, cover-up, money-laundering, ejection of those who tried to expose unrighteousness.

Also "History of the Local Church" by Don Rutledge. He was one of the early American converts, who saw DayStar first-hand, what it caused. He corroborates with Ingalls about what happened.

And another brother named Steve Isitt has done a lot of research on the history of the group. See attached links.

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Old 11-25-2018, 11:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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I would start with the testimony of Witness Lee's closest co-worker, who translated his hymnal into English. His name is John Ingalls and his writing is under the "history" section on this forum of writings of former leading ones.

It is called "Speaking the Truth In Love". I would translate the whole thing, and then excerpt what is relevant. If you see the behaviour of Witness Lee and his family it's not much different than from David Yonggi Cho in Korea. Nepotism, cover-up, money-laundering, ejection of those who tried to expose unrighteousness.

Also "History of the Local Church" by Don Rutledge. He was one of the early American converts, who saw DayStar first-hand, what it caused. He corroborates with Ingalls about what happened.

And another brother named Steve Isitt has done a lot of research on the history of the group. See attached links.
Thanks a lot, Aron!

BTW you must be very good at what's happening in my country. Interestingly, I'm an ex-member of the pentecostal church by David Yonggi Cho, that's when I was an elementary schooler though. I remember David Yonggi Cho's early ministry was quite sound but as his church got bigger, problems crept in, especially his son's too secular engagement in a business and his marriage to a famous actress were shocking enough to me at that time.
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Old 11-26-2018, 12:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

A brief history of the LCs in Korea and how it still affects the church life there

I’m not sure how this brief introduction of the history of the LCs in South Korea will help you understand the entanglements of the LCs’ leadership chaos there, but at least you (naturally I assume most of posters here are not Korean and do not know the thus far details) can have a glimpse of what’s going on there. Of course, I'm not omniscient, but the following is from very reliable sources.

1. The grounding work was not so sound (from the viewpoint of the LCers)

Mr. Kwon (also called Mr. Wang) was a Korean, but he joined Chinese Army during Japanese Ruling Period (c. 1940s~50s). He ended up in Taiwan and found the LC led by Witness Lee. After spending some period of time there, he came back to South Korea without fellowship with Witness Lee. He started his own meeting at Daejeon, a mid sized city located in the center of South Korea. Attendees were getting on the rise, and he gained Mr. Y, later to be the leader of LCs in Korea. Obviously Mr. Kwon used Witness Lee’s messages but did not reveal the fact he was not the author but those were from Witness Lee.

2. Globalization and LSM’s ministry making inroads into South Korea.

The more South Korea was open to the international society, especially the US, the more contacts with LSM-linked LCs in the US conducted by some Korean brothers. But still Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang) was alive and very reluctant to see saints read LSM materials. I’ve heard some leading brothers had to read the materials privately, unnoticed not to be reprimanded by Mr. Kwon.

3. Leadership power struggle

Mr. Kwon passed away.
Mr. S, a retired military officer, was enthusiastic in contacting LSM and claimed the LCs in South Korean would have to openly communicate with LSM. Mr. Y –followers and Mr. S-followers in rivalry for some time period, ended up both camps deciding to follow LSM’s direction. But under the surface, there have been rivalry going on between coworkers and leading brothers, while some left the LCs openly criticizing Witness Lee for some reason.

4. Andrew Yu’s audacious, but seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders

Very long time, Andrew Yu had visited South Korea and gave a lot of messages with practical leading. He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire. But that was a kind of hasty action without proper verification period. Andrew Yu seems to had just accepted those candidates offered by Mr. S and Mr. Y. The saints felt there are spiritual imbalance among the appointees, and some mature church leaders were not appointed, and a possible explanation is that they are not so strongly attached with Mr. S or Y.

5. The retired coworkers came back with more chaos

After 3 years or so, the retired 11 or so coworkers came back to leadership position saying that they want to contribute more. Due to seniority culture, newly appointed ones would not have rejected this coming back. I’ve heard there are obvious “hierarchy” now among leading brothers.

6. Ever-decreasing church attendees

Since then, attendees are decreasing.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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Andrew Yu’s audacious, but seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders

Very long time, Andrew Yu had visited South Korea and gave a lot of messages with practical leading. He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire. But that was a kind of hasty action without proper verification period. Andrew Yu seems to had just accepted those candidates offered by Mr. S and Mr. Y. The saints felt there are spiritual imbalance among the appointees, and some mature church leaders were not appointed, and a possible explanation is that they are not so strongly attached with Mr. S or Y.
This is absolutely incredible! How audacious! Of course Andrew Yu's appointment of elders in Seoul was not biblical! "Spiritual imbalance" indeed, more like a gross violation of the truth in order to bring that church under bondage and subjection to false human authority. LSM's works of the flesh are now on full display. This same kind of lust for power and control damaged all the Midwest LC's a decade ago.

Look at the disruption it has caused in the church. What authority from above does Yu possess? Is not the church in Seoul the church of God? Is it not the church of the saints? Since when has it become the church of some foreign ministry? Is Andrew Yu the apostle who preached the gospel and established that church? Of course not. Yu behaved as the Judaizers of old. I heard he has cancer, so perhaps the Lord was not pleased with his actions.

Did not one hundred years ago Watchman Nee proclaim independence from foreign denominations? Did he not assert that the church and her administration is local? What Andrew Yu has done is what started the "Recovery" in China in the first place. Nee rejected all foreign church authorities, yet Seoul has now accepted them? The church in Seoul needs a visit from Watchman Nee today! LSM's lust for power has blinded them from violating their own original mission statement -- their very reason for existence!
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Ohio is correct.
Andrew Yu who?
His "seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders"
"He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire."

Jesus did not appoint anyone on condition that someone else has to retire.
Neither did the Holy Spirit.

Is anything Andrew Yu ever biblical?
LSM defenders please inform.
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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This is absolutely incredible! How audacious! Of course Andrew Yu's appointment of elders in Seoul was not biblical! "Spiritual imbalance" indeed, more like a gross violation of the truth in order to bring that church under bondage and subjection to false human authority. LSM's works of the flesh are now on full display. This same kind of lust for power and control damaged all the Midwest LC's a decade ago.

Look at the disruption it has caused in the church. What authority from above does Yu possess? Is not the church in Seoul the church of God? Is it not the church of the saints? Since when has it become the church of some foreign ministry? Is Andrew Yu the apostle who preached the gospel and established that church? Of course not. Yu behaved as the Judaizers of old. I heard he has cancer, so perhaps the Lord was not pleased with his actions.

Did not one hundred years ago Watchman Nee proclaim independence from foreign denominations? Did he not assert that the church and her administration is local? What Andrew Yu has done is what started the "Recovery" in China in the first place. Nee rejected all foreign church authorities, yet Seoul has now accepted them? The church in Seoul needs a visit from Watchman Nee today! LSM's lust for power has blinded them from violating their own original mission statement -- their very reason for existence!
If Andrew Yu really had wanted to behave like early church era "apostles", he would have exerted all the efforts to contact the "saints" in Seoul and verified who are spiritually mature to the point that he could appoint them as elders.

However, his contact points in Seoul only include a few coworkers with biased opinions and inclination for power, meaning they are "culprits" for this disaster.

Even if Andrew Yu really had contacted the "saints" in Seoul, that would have been a huge challenge in reality because of language barrier.

Anyway, this is quite interesting point to see how Andrew Yu dealt with leadership issue in South Korea. He asked for the then vested coworkers to retire, but he accepted their candidates, which naturally caused those soon-to-retire coworkers to offer the candidates who were "spiritually" stringed to them, leading to a kind of "regency system".

I've heard Andrew Yu cannot visit Seoul any longer due to his physical illness, it is said he has some vocal problem now. Instead, Ron Kangus used to visit Seoul, but I've heard the coworkers in the US don't want to come to Korea for some reason.

The vested coworkers' choice now is to invite Taiwanese brothers (Br. Wu and Br Lim).
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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Ohio is correct.
Andrew Yu who?
His "seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders"
"He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire."

Jesus did not appoint anyone on condition that someone else has to retire.
Neither did the Holy Spirit.

Is anything Andrew Yu ever biblical?
LSM defenders please inform.
Thanks least. I believe this is high time for our Lord to something for Korean saints in the LCs. From my point of view, they have been so exploited very long time.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubei View Post
If Andrew Yu really had wanted to behave like early church era "apostles", he would have exerted all the efforts to contact the "saints" in Seoul and verified who are spiritually mature to the point that he could appoint them as elders.

However, his contact points in Seoul only include a few coworkers with biased opinions and inclination for power, meaning they are "culprits" for this disaster.

Even if Andrew Yu really had contacted the "saints" in Seoul, that would have been a huge challenge in reality because of language barrier.

Anyway, this is quite interesting point to see how Andrew Yu dealt with leadership issue in South Korea. He asked for the then vested coworkers to retire, but he accepted their candidates, which naturally caused those soon-to-retire coworkers to offer the candidates who were "spiritually" stringed to them, leading to a kind of "regency system".

I've heard Andrew Yu cannot visit Seoul any longer due to his physical illness, it is said he has some vocal problem now. Instead, Ron Kangus used to visit Seoul, but I've heard the coworkers in the US don't want to come to Korea for some reason.

The vested coworkers' choice now is to invite Taiwanese brothers (Br. Wu and Br Lim).
There is no "right way" or Biblical way for any one like AY or RK from LSM, a USA book publisher, to properly appoint elders in Seoul, SoKo. There is no Biblical support for this.

The Bible presents many qualifications for church elders. Paul's books to Timothy and Titus mention some. Both the Spirit (Acts 20.28; I Cor 12.28) of God (through prayer and fellowship) and the mature saints (Acts 16.2) should approve of new elders. It is far better for the church to have new elders recommended by existing elders.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:39 PM   #16
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There is no "right way" or Biblical way for any one like AY or RK from LSM, a USA book publisher, to properly appoint elders in Seoul, SoKo. There is no Biblical support for this.

The Bible presents many qualifications for church elders. Paul's books to Timothy and Titus mention some. Both the Spirit (Acts 20.28; I Cor 12.28) of God (through prayer and fellowship) and the mature saints (Acts 16.2) should approve of new elders. It is far better for the church to have new elders recommended by existing elders.
I agree with you, Ohio.

I was writing how it was ridiculously developed in appointing coworkers and elders in Seoul even from the viewpoint of those who accept "only apostle appointing elders principle"

Obviously, Andrew Yu had not done a lot of "foundational work" in South Korea like the early church era apostles did in the middle east and Asia Minor, but he "nominated" some brothers into leadership position without proper verification process at his own based on long-term monitoring/discussion procedures, of course without any so called reference check from "lay persons" in South Korea.

I labelled this as "disaster" in my previous post in this thread, but second thought gives me the idea this could be a blessing in disguise. The saints in South Korea would be quite suspicious that there is something wrong.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

Came Andrew Yu.
Came Ron Kangas.
Came US workers.
Came Wu.
Came Lin.
Came Taiwanese workers.

Jesus said: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock.
If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Came LSM Andrew Yu.
Came LSM Ron Kangas.
Came US LSM bb.
Came Wu.
Came Lin.
Came China Taiwan Book Room bb.

Jesus said: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

US bb appoint Korean workers, elders.
Taiwan bb appoint Korean workers, elders.

Jesus will grant to him that overcometh to sit with him in his throne, even as he also overcame, and set down with his Father in his throne.

Hear not LSM, Hear not TBR.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

-
* bb - blended brothers
* LSM - Living Stream Ministry
* TBR - Taiwan Book Room
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Old 11-27-2018, 10:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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I believe this is high time for our Lord to something for Korean saints in the LCs. From my point of view, they have been so exploited very long time.
This story of Andrew Yu manipulating Korean elders hadn't been posted here, so it's "news" in a sense, but it also matches behaviour from LSM to act in their own self-interest; it's predictable, a "re-run", as one poster recently put it. Just as the story helps clarify the pattern of LSM's handling its constituent assemblies, so also the American testimonies can help those in Asia also understand the forces at work. The stories of Steve Isitt, John Ingalls and Don Rutledge will open their eyes. And I noted David Yonggi Cho earlier, as resemblances between Cho and Lee are neither coincidental nor superficial: it's important to see that this so-called ministry and its captive flock aren't an alternative to "deformed and degraded Christianity" but rather its exemplars. Nepotism, cronyism, money-laundering, corruption, scandal, cover-up - it's all there, in multiple corroborating accounts.
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Old 11-27-2018, 11:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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I agree with you, Ohio.

I was writing how it was ridiculously developed in appointing coworkers and elders in Seoul even from the viewpoint of those who accept "only apostle appointing elders principle"
Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:09 PM   #20
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Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.
Ohio, You are correct. I don’t believe AY is qualified to be an apostle to South Korea. By no means is he related with any foundational work in this country.

He might think that even though he did not establish the church in Seoul, he had the qualification to appoint elders in Seoul on ground that he is the minister of this age, which position he might regard as having been relayed to him from Witness Lee.

The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?

In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.

Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?
Regarding Nee's teaching, based on Acts 14.23 and Titus 1.5, the most we can conclude is that it happened. The Bible described what happened, yet never prescribed that it must happen this way. There is no teaching that demands that the apostle alone can appoint elders.

This errant teaching can only work for initial church startups. What happens when the original apostle passes away? What about the subsequent centuries? Are we then at the mercy of self-appointed apostles who appoint elders whose only qualification is loyalty to headquarters? Unfortunately that has happened far too often. Yet the Bible never tells us that the church belongs to the apostles, rather the church is of God and is of the saints.


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Originally Posted by Gubei View Post
In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.
And this is why LSM manipulates LC elders and workers. I watched many gifted brothers in the LC's get drafted as workers, and then are forced to migrate away from their home church. This creates a ministry "vacuum" in that church, that only LSM can fill. Then LSM will send their workers to that church to minister. This is how these false apostles create needy "followers" in these LC's.


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Originally Posted by Gubei View Post
Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.
You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

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You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.
So sad to hear this story of Midwest... BTW, similar suspicions are prevalent among some "concerned" Korean brothers, most of them have been sidelined already though. One difference is that the direction of financial stuff seems to be opposite here.
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