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Old 08-13-2009, 09:31 PM   #1
manna-man
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The Word is a thread we can all devote too. It can be a teaching or a literal word to expound on. Even a strong opinion on what you think.

So go ahead jump in and share what's on your mind or in your spirit.

First Word:

Grace: How can we learn more about it through understanding the names of GOD?
By examining each of His names we learn more about what He is to us and what He did for us.


Have a good and Godly Day!

Don Jr


The Names of God
by Lambert Dolphin


Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):
EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Elohim.

ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.

EL SHADDAI: God Almighty or "God All Sufficient." 48 times in the OT, 31 times in Job. First used in Gen. 17:1, 2. (Gen. 31:29, 49:24, 25; Prov. 3:27; Micah 2:1; Isa. 60:15, 16, 66:10-13; Ruth 1:20, 21) In Rev. 16:7, "Lord God the Almighty." The Septuagint uses Greek "ikanos" meaning "all-sufficient" or "self-sufficient." The idols of the heathen are called "sheddim."

ADONAI: Lord in our English Bibles (Capitol letter 'L ', lower case, 'ord') (Adonai is plural, the sing. is "adon"). "Master'' or "Lord" 300 times in the OT always plural when referring to God, when sing. the reference is to a human lord. Used 215 times to refer to men. First use of Adonai, Gen. 15:2. (Ex. 4:10; Judges 6:15; 2 Sam. 7:18-20; Ps. 8, 114:7, 135:5, 141:8, 109:21-28). Heavy use in Isaiah (Adonai Jehovah). 200 times by Ezekiel. Ten times in Dan. 9.

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JEHOVAH: LORD in our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT First use Gen. 2:4 (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb "to be", havah, similar to chavah (to live), "The Self-Existent One," "I AM WHO I AM" or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated ( . . . . ) or written "YHWH" without vowel points. The tetragrammaton. Josh., Judges, Sam., and Kings use Jehovah almost exclusively. The love of God is conditioned upon His moral and spiritual attributes. (Dan. 9:14; Ps. 11:7; Lev. 19:2; Hab. 1:12). Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh'ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons.

JEHOVAH-JIREH: "The Lord will Provide." Gen. 22:14. From "jireh" ("to see" or "to provide," or to "foresee" as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come.

JEHOVAH-ROPHE: "The Lord Who Heals" Ex. 15:22-26. From "rophe" ("to heal"); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. (Jer. 30:17, 3:22; Isa. 61:1) God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man's being.

JEHOVAH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner." Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," See Psalm 4:6.

JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies" Lev. 20:8. "To make whole, set apart for holiness."

JEHOVAH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" Judges 6:24. "Shalom" translated "peace" 170 times means "whole," "finished," "fulfilled," "perfected." Related to "well," welfare." Deut. 27:6; Dan. 5:26; I Kings 9:25 8:61; Gen. 15:16; Ex. 21:34, 22:5, 6; Lev. 7:11-21. Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one's fellow man.

SHEPHERD: Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11.

JUDGE: Psa. 7:8, 96:13.

JEHOVAH ELOHIM: "LORD God" Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc.

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU "The Lord Our Righteousness" Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. From "tsidek" (straight, stiff, balanced - as on scales - full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) God our Righteousness.

JEHOVAH-ROHI: "The Lord Our Shepherd" Psa. 23, from "ro'eh" (to pasture).

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH: "The Lord is There" (Ezek. 48:35).

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: "The Lord of Hosts" The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16).

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EL ELYON: 'Most High" (from "to go up") Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16; Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14.

ABHIR: 'Mighty One', ("to be strong") Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1.

BRANCH: (tsemach), The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15.

KADOSH: "Holy One" Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression "the Holy One of Israel" 29 times.

SHAPHAT: "Judge" Gen. 18:25

EL ROI: "God of Seeing" Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes.

KANNA: "Jealous" (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2.

PALET: "Deliverer" Psa. 18:2.

YESHUA: (Yeshua) "Savior" ("he will save"). Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua." The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. ("Christ", the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah). [See Wikipedia article].

GAOL: "Redeemer" (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; For example, the antitype corresponding to Boaz the Kinsman-Redeemer in the Book of Ruth.

MAGEN: "Shield" Psa. 3:3, 18:30.

STONE: Gen. 49:24

EYALUTH: "Strength" Psa. 22:19.

TSADDIQ: "Righteous One" Psa. 7:9.

EL-OLAM: "Everlasting God" (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4.

EL-BERITH: "God of the Covenant" Used of Baal in Judges 9:46. Probably used originally to refer to the God of israel.

EL-GIBHOR: Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)

ZUR: "God our Rock" Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29.

Malachi calls Messiah "The Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2).

Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).

'Attiq Yomin (Aramaic): "Ancient of Days," Dan. 7:9, 13, 22.

MELEKH: "King" Psa. 5:2, 29:10, 44:4, 47:6-8, 48:2, 68:24, 74:12, 95:3, 97:1, 99:4, 146:10; Isa. 5:1, 5, 41:21, 43:15, 44:6; 52:7, 52:10.

"The Angel of the Lord: " Gen. 16:7ff, 21:17, 22:11, 15ff, 18:1-19:1, 24:7, 40, 31:11-13, 32:24-30; Ex. 3:6, 13:21, Ezek. 1:10-13. Seen in the theophanies, or pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the OT (See I Cor. 10:3 NT).

FATHER: 2 Sam. 7:14-15; Psa. 68:5; Isa. 63:16, 64:8; Mal. 1:6.

THE FIRST AND LAST: Isa. 44:6, 48:12.

New Testament Scriptures, (Greek):
KURIOS: (kurios) "Lord" Found some 600 times in the NT.

DESPOTES: (despotes) "Lord" 5 times: Lu. 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 4; Rev. 6:10.

THEOS: (yeos) "God" (equivalent to the Hebrew Elohim), 1,000 times in the NT. In the NT all the persons of the trinity are called "God" at one time or another.

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life" in John's Gospel. From the Hebrew OT verb "to be" signifying a Living, Intelligent, Personal Being.

THEOTES: "Godhead" Col. 2:9; Rom. 1:20.

HUPSISTOS: "Highest" Mt. 21:9.

SOTER: (soter) "Savior" Luke 1:4 7.

WORD: (logos) John 1:1ff

ALMIGHTY: (pantokrator) 2 Cor. 6:18, Revelation, 9t, e.g. 19:6.

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JESUS: Derived from the Hebrew "Joshua" (Y'shua) or "Je-Hoshua" meaning JEHOVAH IS SALVATION.

CHRIST: is equivalent to the Hebrew 'Messiah' (Meshiach), "The Anointed One."

Other NT Titles for Jesus: Shepherd of the Sheep; Master; King of kings; Lord of lords; Bishop and Guardian of our Souls; Daystar, Deliverer, Advocate, Last (or Second) Adam, Ancient of Days, Branch, Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, First Born, Head of the Body, Physician, Rock, Root of Jesse, Stone, Potentate; Chief Apostle; Great High Priest; Pioneer and Perfecter of our Faith (or Author and Finisher); Lamb of God; Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World; Lord God Almighty.

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LOGOS: "The Word of God" John l; Rev. 19:13.

SOPHIA: "The Wisdom of God," referring to Christ, refers back to Proverbs (I Cor. 1,2)

Father, Son, Holy Spirit: Christian orthodoxy has always understood God to be One God in Three Persons (Elohim). In The NT each person of the godhead is called "God" and "Lord" at least once.

Names for the Holy Spirit: Counselor; Comforter; Baptizer; Advocate; Strengthener; Sanctifier; Spirit of Christ (not the same as the spirit of Christ); Seven-Fold Spirit (Rev.); Spirit of Truth; Spirit of Grace; Spirit of Mercy; Spirit of God; Spirit of Holiness; Spirit of Life. Symbolized in OT and NT by (l) breath or wind; (2) fire; (3) water; (4) oil; (5) light; (6) a dove.

The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ: Most Study Bibles have notes which give references to the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here is what the Scofield Study Bible Notes say:

(1) In the intimations and explicit predictions of the O.T. (a) The theophanies intimate the appearance of God in human form, and His ministry thus to man (Gen. 16:7-13; 18:2-23. especially v. 17; 32. 28 with Hos. 12:3-5; Ex. 3:2-14). (b) The Messiah is expressly declared to be the Son of God (Psa. 2:2-9), and God (Psa. 45:6, 7 with Heb. 1:8,9; Psa. 110. with Mt. 22:44; Acts 2:34 and Heb. 1:13; Psa. 110.4 with Heb. 5:6; 6. 20:7. 17-21; and Zech. 6:13). (c) His virgin birth was foretold as the means through which God could be "Immanuel," God with us (Isa. 7:13, 14 with Mt. 1:22, 23). (d) The Messiah is expressly invested with the divine names (Isa. 9:6, 7). (e) In a prophecy of His death He is called Jehovah's "fellow" (Zech. 13:7 with Mt. 26:31). (f) His eternal being is declared (Mic. 5:2 with Mt. 2:6; John 7:42).

(2) Christ Himself affirmed His deity. (a) He applied to Himself the Jeho-vistic I AM. (The pronoun "he" is not in the Greek; cf. John 8:24; John 8:56-58. The Jews correctly understood this to be our Lord's claim to full deity [v. 59]. See, also, John 10:33; 18:4-6, where, also "he" is not in the original.) (b) He claimed to be the Adonai of the O.T. (Mt. 22:42-45. See Gen. 15:2, note). (c) He asserted His identity with the Father (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 14:62; John 10:30; that the Jews so understood Him is shown by vs. 31, 32; John 14:8, 9; 17. 5). (d) He exercised the chief prerogative of God (Mk. 2:5-7; Lk. 7:48-50). (e) He asserted omnipresence (Mt. 18:20; John 3:13); omniscience (John 11:11-14, when Jesus was fifty miles away; Mk. 11:6-8); omnipotence (Mt. 28:18; Lk. 7:14; John 5:21-23; 6. is); mastery over nature, and creative power (Lk. 9:16. 17; John 2:9, 10:28). (f) He received and approved human worship (Mt. 14:33; 28: 9, John 20: 28, 29).

(3) The N.T. writers ascribe divine titles to Christ (John 1:1; 20. 28; Acts 20:28; Rom. 1:4; 9:5; 2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 2:23; Heb. 1:8; 1 John 5:20).

(4) The N.T. writers ascribe divine perfections and attributes to Christ (e.g. Mt. 11:28; 18:20, 28:20; John 1:2, 2:23-25; 3:13; 5:17; 21:17; Heb. 1:3, 11, 12 with Heb. 13:8; Rev. 1:8,17,18; 2:23; 11. 17; 22:13).

(5) The N.T. writers ascribe divine works to Christ (John 1:3. 16:17, Col. 1:16, 17; Heb. 1:3).

(6) The N.T. writers teach that supreme worship should be paid to Christ (Acts 7:59, 60; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 13:14, Phil. 2:9, 10; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 1:5, 6; 5. 12, 13).

(7) The holiness and resurrection of Christ prove His deity (John 8:46; Rom. 1:4).

Philippians 2 is the great Chapter on the kenosis or self-emptying of the Lord Jesus Christ when He became a man. His equality with the Father as the Son of God is stated here.

Note also John 5:18 "This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

A well-known NT passage of mine is Romans 9:5 "...to them (the Jewish race) belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Messiah (who is) God who is over all, blessed for ever. Amen."

ALPHA AND OMEGA: The First and the Last, The Beginning and The End (Rev. 1).

Additional Reading: Names of God, by Nathan Stone
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Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 08-15-2009, 07:55 PM   #2
manna-man
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Default Re: The Word.

Come on saints! anyone want to share anything? Teach anything the Lord has showed them recently? Even just say what you think.

Anybody! Any LC'rs have something fresh the Lord has blessed them with recently?
Any Former LC'rs?

I'll share if you share!

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Word.

Amen, dear brother manna-man.

I beg thee, give me some more time, dear brother. I would love to share something concerning the name "JEHOVAH". What profound riches are there in that Name!

I would also love to share something concerning the kenosis, or self-emptying of the Lord Jesus Christ. What depths of love we will find there!
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Word.

KTS,

Take your time, I'll be waiting for you.

Grace,

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Word.

GRACE: The unmerited FAVOUR of GOD...

Job 33:26

He (JOB) shall pray unto God, and HE (JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU) will be favourable unto him: and HE shall see his face with joy: for HE will render unto man HIS Righteousness.

Proverbs 3:4
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Daniel 1:9
Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

Luke 1:30
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God

Quote:
*** Fear NOT Saints! For thou has found FAVOUR with GOD and MAN! Believe it. RECEIVE it and Confess it out loud in Christ JESUS! ***
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This SAME JESUS is living in us ! We are entitled to increase in Wisdom and Stature and IN FAVOUR with God and MAN !

Acts 2:46b-47

with gladness and singleness of heart,

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Quote:
Praise our LORD! He has granted us FAVOUR with GOD and with MAN !!
No weapon that is formed against thee (US) shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee (US) in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 54:17)

Quote:
WOW! Are we ever BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVOURED by GOD and by MAN !! Praise and Glory and Honor to KING JESUS..with THANKSGIVING! THANK YOU Abba FATHER! HOLY SPIRIT-WE PRAISE YOU! We ADORE YOU!! WE LOVE YOU! LORD JESUS: THE Spirit and the Bride say "COME QUICKLY!!"
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Word.

SOPHIA: "The Wisdom of God," referring to Christ, refers back to Proverbs (I Cor. 1,2)

just recently someone told me that 'wisdom' in proverbs 8 is Christ personified..!! what verses in 1 Cor make reference back to proverbs.. i didnt find the reference in my kjv .. thanks .. God's Blessings..
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Word.




Wisdom Of God, The
Is one of his attributes
1Sa_2:3; Job_9:4;

DESCRIBED AS
Perfect
Job_36:4; Job_37:16;

Mighty
Job_36:5;

Universal
Job_28:24; Dan_2:22; Act_15:18;

Infinite
Psa_147:5; Rom_11:33;

Unsearchable
Isa_40:28; Rom_11:33;

Wonderful
Psa_139:6;

Beyond human comprehension
Psa_139:6;

Incomparable
Isa_44:7; Jer_10:7;

Underived
Job_21:22; Isa_40:14;

The gospel contains treasures of
1Co_2:7;

Wisdom of saints is derived from
Ezr_7:25;

All human wisdom derived from
Dan_2:1;

Saints ascribe to him
Dan_2:20;

EXHIBITED IN
His works
Job_37:16; Psa_104:24; Psa_136:5; Pro_3:19; Jer_10:12;

His counsels
Isa_28:29; Jer_32:19;

His foreshadowing events
Isa_42:9; Isa_46:10;

Redemption
1Co_1:24; Eph_1:8; Eph_3:10;

Searching the heart
1Ch_28:9; Rev_2:23;

Understanding the thoughts
1Ch_28:9; Psa_139:2;

EXHIBITED IN KNOWING
The heart
Psa_44:21; Pro_15:11; Luk_16:15;

The actions
Job_34:21; Psa_139:2; Psa_139:3;

The words
Psa_139:4;

His saints
2Sa_7:20; 2Ti_2:19;

The way of saints
Job_23:10; Psa_1:6;

The want of saints
Deu_2:7; Mat_6:8;

The afflictions of saints
Exo_3:7; Psa_142:3;

The infirmities of saints
Psa_103:14;

The minutest matters
Mat_10:29; Mat_10:30;

The most secret things
Mat_6:18;

The time of judgment
Mat_24:36;

The wicked
Neh_9:10; Job_11:11;

The works, &c of the wicked
Isa_66:18;

Nothing is concealed from
Psa_139:12;

The wicked question
Psa_73:11; Isa_47:10;

Should be magnified
Rom_16:27; Jud_1:25;


Just Plain Grace.

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:37 PM   #8
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Arrow New Group!

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB....php?groupid=1

Hey! I started a new group on LC discussion boards. Didn't know one could do that! The link to the group is above.

Grace to all,

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Word.

So much for that group, apparently it must be a back door into the system and is a dead end.

Oh well, I was excited for a moment.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
manna-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2010, 08:23 AM   #10
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Default The Cost

23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

The Cost?

What does it cost to be a Christian?

Does it mean we have to get our hands dirty? Of course it does.

Today if we look at various ministries and see the hard efforts of their ministries, we will see the potential reward!(Blessing/Growth) We may also see failure and learn from their mistakes as well.

Many have failed! Because they/we don't want to get involved/speak up.

If we recognize error and say nothing we are accomplices!

When it appears that any one member of the body goes rogue, it is time for the members of the body to react. When they/we don't, this individual can/may become harmful to the whole batch. When they/we don't consider the individual, we don't care. When we don't consider the consequence, we don't care. Why wouldn't we care for a precious member(Big or small)?

Some reasons:

It costs to much.
It would require time.
Our hands would get dirty. (Figuratively and literally)
Caring would expose me.
I'm not who I claim to be.

We must look at each individual and consider the entire picture. At least as much as it is practical.


I believe not counting the cost of ministering, was the greatest error the members of the LC made. This error should have been seen by the active Elders in the local assemblies.(and probably was)

Each (little one) also bears some resposibility. For they, like the ones in charge were comfortable with their situation and may have not wanted to rock the boat. I mean of course those who were capable of feeding themselves.

So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
and
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
and
Who is responsible?




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Psalm 127 ►
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:05 AM   #11
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23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]The Cost?

What does it cost to be a Christian?
Salvation..Eternal Salvation is a free gift.

The Anointing, however, that is the POWER, to live in The PRESENCE of GOD is costly. The woman who broke the precious alabaster box anointed Jesus with the Oil. The contents in the alabaster box were very costly but to anoint Jesus with it was a more of a blessing to her than the costly oil in the box.

The closer we get to Christ, the more we die to self. It is very costly but well worth it. WELL WORTH IT ! I KNOW IT ! I couldn't do it without the help of God the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I may not be where I want to be but Thank GOD, I am NOT where I used to be! Praise the Precious Awesome Name of our GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit.

Great post !
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:24 PM   #12
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So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
and
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
and
Who is responsible?
These are the $64,000 (million in today's terms) questions. The problem is that they are so disjointed and broad that it is almost impossible to discuss them.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in a healthy way? Everything.

What didn't the LC members do...? A simplistic answer is "think for themselves."

Who is responsible? Depends on how you are looking at it. It goes from "only Lee and the leadership" to "everyone."

The problem with blaming everyone is that you then presume that everyone should know everything required to make the decision. That presumes that there is no need for anyone to be a teacher and help us along the way.

If you say only Lee and the leadership, then you presume that everyone else is stupid and cannot decide for themselves. You take the position that we not only need teachers, we need people with spiritual power of attorney to tell us everything and we do not even consider whether it might or might not be true.

Obviously, both are true and both are false. Depends on the specific question. Since this is a generic "who is at fault about everything," then it is impossible to answer.

Identify something discrete and we can work on it.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:22 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=manna-man;8012]
Quote:
Today if we look at various ministries and see the hard efforts of their ministries, we will see the potential reward!(Blessing/Growth) We may also see failure and learn from their mistakes as well.
Here's where I struggle in a big way: The 'church' has become a business. (not speaking of the LSM/LC for I did not know the LSM/LC was a business back in the day.) The LC deceived newbies like myself because I did not see it as a business when I was only 21 and a babe in Christ. Today, while I can appreciate a good teaching, many, many pastors/preachers/teachers conduct their church affairs as a business. They train you to become a leader in the church but there are contracts to sign. That is why they emphasize tithes and offerings soo much..to a FAULT.

I don't see the church being conducted as a 'business' in the NT. Am I missing something ? What are your thoughts and this can be answered on a separate new thread. But Lee did pay his co-workers didn't he? And he handpicked elders right ?

Quote:
Many have failed! Because they/we don't want to get involved/speak up.
They don't want to get involved because they don't know how. They aren't confident about what they see or know. They don't know who to confide in without being ostrasized.

I believe not counting the cost of ministering, was the greatest error the members of the LC made. This error should have been seen by the active Elders in the local assemblies.(and probably was)

Quote:
Each (little one) also bears some resposibility. For they, like the ones in charge were comfortable with their situation and may have not wanted to rock the boat. I mean of course those who were capable of feeding themselves.
When I got tired of the Lee adulation, I had to leave because how in the world was I going to stand up and express my observation ? But I found a small bunch from my locality who felt like I did but were quiet about it. They moved to a new locality and I tagged along. Once there, everyone exploded with all kinds of stories about Lee and the church. We still loved the Lord and fellowship but all the venting also wiped us out so that before too long, everyone just went their seperate ways. Including me. I felt lost at first but I did not want to go back to the LC as it was. I also had my own set of personal issues that I could not go to with anyone about.

Eventually.....it was just me and the LORD....in the wilderness.
So, a question to all of you.
Quote:
What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
Read, study, pray the Word, ask for insight, wisdom, understanding, protection from deception. Fellowship with Christians and learn from them..the good, the bad and the ugly. Hang out with non Christians always being a good example, a witness, someone they would want to hang out with. With God's help, we will learn to balance our lives.

Quote:
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
They didn't remain true to their individuality. The guys thought that by dressing like Lee in white shirts & black ties, they would be considered 'good brothers.' We all talked the same instead of speaking normal especially when we were at meetings. We prayed in the same tone or tried to anyway instead of praying from our hearts. We wanted to impress the LC not Jesus. (not that we can impress Him anyway.) But the LC, Lee, the life studies, the RcV, the footnotes became numero UNO instead of GOD.

Everyone was too afraid to rock the boat.

Quote:
Who is responsible?
The leadership. Why ? We would get reprimended if we went against them. For example: As a general rule, the 'brothers' sat with the brothers and the sisters with the sisters at meetings. WHY ?? Oh...so we wouldn't 'lust' after each other ? That we would look 'holier than thou' ? I remember watching newlyweds sit with each right after they got married and after a month, the husband would go sit with the brothers and the wife with the sisters. Sometimes the elders made them.

We wanted to please the church because we thought GOD was there and that's what HE wanted.

We're learning.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Cost

Great post CMW!

I especially liky your point on not expressing individuality!

CMW, when I was speaking about not getting involved. I was speaking about those who saw and knew something was wrong yet did nothing.

Hey everybody!!!! did I ever tell you CMW is my sister!

You are a blessing sis for sure!

Grace to all mankind!
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Psalm 127 ►
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:59 PM   #15
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Here's where I struggle in a big way: The 'church' has become a business. Today, while I can appreciate a good teaching, many, many pastors/preachers/teachers conduct their church affairs as a business. They train you to become a leader in the church but there are contracts to sign. That is why they emphasize tithes and offerings soo much... to a FAULT. I don't see the church being conducted as a 'business' in the NT. Am I missing something ?
I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:56 PM   #16
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I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore.
With all the collections taken up fer God, one has to ask, How does Satan do it? I mean, when it comes to donations and collections, Satan gets the tiny chip at the end of the stick. While God gets so many donations and collections that by now He has to be richer than God. For God it's a never ending bottomless supply, while Satan gets the empty bucket.

Apparently, Satan is better at managing very tight budgets. And gets more bang fer the bucks. In fact, as it more than appears, Satan, on a skeleton budget, wins more souls than God, who has a heavenly surplus budget.

Obviously, money isn't the answer...accept for building strong successful businesses...and churches of divine profit.
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:45 AM   #17
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I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.


Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 07-21-2010, 06:27 AM   #18
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Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to cut his budget?

All that talk about "seed money" made me think about Paul's word in the same epistle, "we are not like the many, peddling the word of God."

The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.
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Old 07-21-2010, 06:42 AM   #19
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The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.
I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:45 AM   #20
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I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.
Ohio, Yes we should make known our needs to God. Definitely. Yet it is practical for a shepherd to share what The Lord has put in his heart and leave it to the leading of the Spirit to convict and lead His sheep.

Awareness, No doubt, as Ohio pointed out earlier, some ministries do go overboard. Yet you can't deny Pastor Hagee and how he is benefitting his fold The Lord has put him over.
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:16 AM   #21
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I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.
Ohio THANK YOU for such a GREAT RESPONSE !! I especially Laughed out Loud at your comment: Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. Oh and at one church, they give a 20 minute sermon on Malachi 3:16 I believe it is...robbing God with your tithes.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:18 AM   #22
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Ohio, Yes we should make known our needs to God. Definitely. Yet it is practical for a shepherd to share what The Lord has put in his heart and leave it to the leading of the Spirit to convict and lead His sheep.

Awareness, No doubt, as Ohio pointed out earlier, some ministries do go overboard. Yet you can't deny Pastor Hagee and how he is benefitting his fold The Lord has put him over.
I do know Hagee does give a LOT. While I've never met him, I've met his wife & she's down to earth. He has built schools & hospitals and transported Jews out of Russia and Ethiopia to relocate in Israel. He built a school / hom where these Jews that came back to Israel go there and learn Hebrew & Jewish customs. They are taught a trade so they can go to work once they leave the community. John pays for this..maybe out of the tithes/offerings. John doesn't make a big deal out of the tithes/offerings. Right before he starts preaching he'll say something like, let's now bring our tithes/offerings to the Lord. He prays over them and then while the plate is being passed around, there is singing. Other places will give you a 20-30 minute sermon and still others will collect 3-4 times during the SERVICE !

Many ministries also build hospitals and orphanages in other countries.

I often wonder why they don't build them here in the U.S.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:19 AM   #23
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Great post CMW!

I especially liky your point on not expressing individuality!

CMW, when I was speaking about not getting involved. I was speaking about those who saw and knew something was wrong yet did nothing.

Hey everybody!!!! did I ever tell you CMW is my sister!

You are a blessing sis for sure!

Grace to all mankind!
You are tooo, toooooooo sweet manna-man.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:22 AM   #24
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I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.
I like Joyce Meyers, and I know she has helped many sisters, but I read an article by the St. Louis newspaper reporter about their extravagant lifestyle and growing fortune, with an annual revenue (several years ago) of ~$100M.

Is this why Paul wrote, "I know how to abound?"

My wife and I have a little disagreement about whether ministers need their own private jets.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:34 AM   #25
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Ohio THANK YOU for such a GREAT RESPONSE !! I especially Laughed out Loud at your comment: Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. Oh and at one church, they give a 20 minute sermon on Malachi 3:16 I believe it is...robbing God with your tithes.

Oh they love those verses in Malachi 3.8-11.

But they never talk about those verses about pastors driving Lexus, living in fancy homes, and taking those frequent "working" vacations.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:43 AM   #26
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I like Joyce Meyers, and I know she has helped many sisters, but I read an article by the St. Louis newspaper reporter about their extravagant lifestyle and growing fortune, with an annual revenue (several years ago) of ~$100M.

Is this why Paul wrote, "I know how to abound?"

My wife and I have a little disagreement about whether ministers need their own private jets.
I like Joyce too. I don't watch her as much as I used to. She is very, very wealthy but also is a giver. I 'ushered' at one of her conferences she had here in SA a couple of years ago. She gave every volunteer a $50.00 voucher (to purchase her products of course but others don't do what she does for the volunteers.

She's not big into tithes/offerings. She passes the plate around but doesn't make a big deal of tithing. I have heard her mention Watchman Nee a couple of times but was I ever surprised when I saw Lee's pic on the screen along with many spiritual 'giants' from years ago. Now don't go bashing her because she put up Lee's pic. She may have picked up a book of his here & there and to my knowledge she's never mentioned him.

When Perry Stone was in town, he pulverized the leaders of the church who were fleecing the sheep.

When Benny Hinn was in town, he pulverized Joel Osteen without mentioning his name. But we all knew who he was talking about. He said to 'Osteen': GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY if you can't say JESUS is the only way to heaven, (making reference to when Osteen was on Larry King). If you can't talk about Repentance and the Blood of Jesus, you have NO BUSINESS to be in the ministry.

I know a lot of people don't like Benny but when he's TEACHING..and I mean TEACHING, he's an awesome teacher ! Really. And yes, there are things I don't like about him..BELIEVE YOU ME ! I got to meet him on stage and I saw him lose his temper with his staff because the mic wasn't working.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:24 AM   #27
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When Benny Hinn was in town, he pulverized Joel Osteen without mentioning his name. But we all knew who he was talking about. He said to 'Osteen': GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY if you can't say JESUS is the only way to heaven, (making reference to when Osteen was on Larry King). If you can't talk about Repentance and the Blood of Jesus, you have NO BUSINESS to be in the ministry.

I know a lot of people don't like Benny but when he's TEACHING..and I mean TEACHING, he's an awesome teacher ! Really. And yes, there are things I don't like about him..BELIEVE YOU ME ! I got to meet him on stage and I saw him lose his temper with his staff because the mic wasn't working.
This says a whole lot to me -- Benny humiliating Osteen publicly -- in the "name of Jesus," -- after an interview with 9x married Larry the King. Then he goes over and "blows" on folks who need some "healing," and they all fall into the arms of others. Yet ... he is an "awesome" teacher with a terrible temper and no patience for "incompetent" employees. What did that little "display" teach you and the others who see it regularly?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no huge fan of Osteen either. The only minister I liked on TV was Ron Hembree. Too bad he just passed away.

So many things are wrong here with Benny. Why can't he address Osteen privately about his "concerns." And ... where's that verse about "blowing" people down. WL was also an "awesome" teacher, who could also release his "temper" all over others. Does that give them a free pass on how we treat people?

Apostle Paul said he never used his authority for tearing down, only for building up. One of the most confusing things in the Christian life for me is seeing talented and gifted orators, who supposedly are the most fruitful and blessing to the body of Christ, all the while amassing fortunes and glory to themselves, can be so abusive to "the least of My brothers."

I'm not judging these ones. I'm just a little confused.
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Old 07-21-2010, 11:57 AM   #28
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[QUOTE=Ohio;8059]
Quote:
This says a whole lot to me -- Benny humiliating Osteen publicly -- in the "name of Jesus," -- after an interview with 9x married Larry the King. Then he goes over and "blows" on folks who need some "healing," and they all fall into the arms of others.
Remember, Benny didn't call out Osteen by name. Why doesn't he speak to him privately ? ......because they're not in the same 'camp' is my guess. And who knows, maybe he or others have ? I know Osteen got unindated with letters reprimending him for not (paraphrasing here saying JESUS is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE and no man can come to the Father but through Him. Osteen eventually issued an apology to the Christian audience but has never taken it back when going on Larry King after that time. Osteen has been on King a few times to my knowledge.

As for Hinn blowing on people...I am absolutely sure he has a scripture for doing that. (I'm not saying he is truly being led to do it but he has a scripture for it. When I find it I'll share it.)

For years & years I never cared for Hinn. A few years ago, I heard him TEACH using scriptures on God the Holy Spirit. Up to that time, I didn't 'know' the Holy Spirit only that He was the third Member of the God-Head. That He was the 'Life Giving Spirit'. That He was living inside of me as is Jesus and the Father. In that message, Hinn explained how He is the Voice of God. I then remembered when I was praying to GOD a few months before I got saved for 'help'. I will never forget the Voice telling me to call on JESUS. Call on JESUS, the Voice kept telling me. I thought it was my 'mind' telling me that. Aww...it was the HOLY SPIRIT who is the VOICE of GOD telling me to call on JESUS I now knew !

Consider Deuteronomy 4:29-31
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

30"When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His Voice.

31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them
.


Maybe I was brain dead during my time in the LC but I don't recall Lee ever teaching on God the Holy Spirit except when he referred to the Spirit as the Life Giving Spirit. He never even addressed the third Person of the GodHead AS the Holy Spirit, did he? (I know he does in the footnotes of the Rcv) But I was not in the LC as long as you so perhaps I am wrong.

Without getting into a long winded discussion about these pastors/teachers/preachers, I will be attentive to whoever helps me dig deep into the Word of God.

While the Lee and the LC had lots of things 'wrong', we have to admit, Lee helped us and taught us how to call on the Name of the Lord. That we got into a repititious, vain, heartLESS habit is our own fault. That said, his ministry did teach me to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ. You know darn well, most Christians pray to 'the Father' in the Name of Jesus. We didn't. But Jesus does say in John 14:6 "No man can come to the Father but through HIM." Now when Jesus was teaching before His Crucifixion, He couldn't very well tell His disciples to Pray to HIM. He was preparing them for when the time came that the Holy Spirit would breath LIFE into them and empower them to speak with Boldness and Authority. The Holy Spirit is the One Who reveals the WORD of GOD to us. He reveals JESUS to us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot KNOW, that is have a relationship with Jesus, the WORD of GOD Who became flesh. He is the One Who brings the scriptures ALIVE to our souls, to our heart, our spirit.

I don't know. Maybe Lee taught this and I never 'got it'. I only remember Lee emphasizing our spirit. 'Turn to your spirit.' Well if my spirit is not FILLED with the Holy Spirit of GOD, what good is it for me to 'turn to my spirit?' Because that is where Jesus is ? True but ONLY if you are filled with God the Holy Spirit !

Lee did have it right, imho, we've got to pray/contact GOD with our spirit. When we do, our SOUL blesses the LORD, rejoices in the LORD. You do get this, right Ohio ? That Lee screwed with our heads, well.....what a shame. But I know for a fact there is something deeper than our mind, our emotions and our will because we are born of GOD and God is SPIRIT and thus we are S/spirit.

Even voice teachers will tell their students to sing from their diaghram, the deep part of their being, not from their throat.

It took me many years to 'get it'. I had to strip the old LC wineskin of talking a certain way to make myself 'believe' I was talking with 'my spirit'.

I will continue with my thoughts down below.
Quote:
Yet ... he is an "awesome" teacher with a terrible temper and no patience for "incompetent" employees. What did that little "display" teach you and the others who see it regularly?
That he is HUMAN...and for me NEVER, EVER to put any man or woman up on a pedestal ! My going up on stage was not my doing either. Some pastor came and grabbed me because he 'saw' the power of God all over me. He could feel the Presence of God very strongly on me. Believe me, I was thrown for a loop when I was pulled out of my seat when I was in the middle of private Praise and Worship. IMHO, since I pray & speak the Word of God everyday and study His Word and Teach His Word and am soo in Love with Jesus, for He is the Lover of my SOUL, surely the Presence of God has to be on me, no ? or Yes ?

Quote:
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no huge fan of Osteen either. The only minister I liked on TV was Ron Hembree. Too bad he just passed away.
I have never heard of him ! I'll have to google him.

Quote:
And ... where's that verse about "blowing" people down.
I don't know but I am sure there is one ! And when I find it, I'll share it with you...maybe PM it to you. The reason I say this is because Benny also takes his jacket off sometimes and swings it about. He recently gave the scripture for it and explained how God told him to take off his jacket. He didn't want to do it at first but he obeyed.

NOW...settle...settle. He could be taking the scriptures out of context. I do not know. What I know is he does have scriptures for everything he does. Right or wrong. Most of the time I think he is correct but when he is wrong, he is dead wrong.

Quote:
WL was also an "awesome" teacher, who could also release his "temper" all over others. Does that give them a free pass on how we treat people?
EXACTLY my point ! I don't know how they allow it to happen. If I lose my temper in the flesh, for SURE the LORD will convict me and I'll have to go and apologize! And these guys just lose it like they 'can'?? I do not want to be in their shoes when they stand before the Throne of Glory. I have enough to answer for myself Thank You very much !

One thing I have been learning as I take in teachings. I check it out in the scriptures. I ask the Lord to give me insight, understanding and to show me the TRUTH. I don't want to be deceived. There are some people who believe God has a warehouse in heaven with body parts and when someone needs a new heart or liver, He gives it to an angel to deliver it. And people actually believe this stuff !!! Benny doesn't teach this to my knowledge, nor does Hagee.


Quote:
Apostle Paul said he never used his authority for tearing down, only for building up. One of the most confusing things in the Christian life for me is seeing talented and gifted orators, who supposedly are the most fruitful and blessing to the body of Christ, all the while amassing fortunes and glory to themselves, can be so abusive to "the least of My brothers."

I'm not judging these ones. I'm just a little confused.
Ohio,
I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. There are a lot of things I don't understand about these teachers/preachers. Believe me. I don't know if they live double lives, or if they've simply got caught up with the 'business' aspect of the ministry. That is why it is soo difficult for me to be 'loyal' to a particular 'ministry'. That's why I hardly go to 'church'...but I love to fellowship and pray with saints and I do like listening to different gifted teachers !

You might be wondering what I 'see' in Benny's teachings, like everyone else. Well...even though he's a 'showman', he can explain the Word of God without the fluff-fluff. He can be very deep. But he can be full of himself too even though he 'tries' not to. And yes...his wife of 30 plus years recently divorced him. No one is saying why. It's hush-hush but Hinn did say with absolute certainty, there was no adultery or fornication involved from either of them. I believe it because if you ask me Benny loves his ministry more than 'life' itself. He never should have gotten married if you ask me. LORD HAVE MERCY !!!!
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:35 PM   #29
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Ohio, I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. There are a lot of things I don't understand about these teachers/preachers. Believe me. I don't know if they live double lives, or if they've simply got caught up with the 'business' aspect of the ministry. That is why it is soo difficult for me to be 'loyal' to a particular 'ministry'. That's why I hardly go to 'church'...but I love to fellowship and pray with saints and I do like listening to different gifted teachers !

You might be wondering what I 'see' in Benny's teachings, like everyone else. Well...even though he's a 'showman', he can explain the Word of God without the fluff-fluff. He can be very deep. But he can be full of himself too even though he 'tries' not to. And yes...his wife of 30 plus years recently divorced him. No one is saying why. It's hush-hush but Hinn did say with absolute certainty, there was no adultery or fornication involved from either of them. I believe it because if you ask me Benny loves his ministry more than 'life' itself.
Boy does that sound familiar!

CMW, thanks much for the long reply. I always appreciate your heart and attitude when you post. Thanks for taking the time.

I think that it's hard for people like us, at our time in life, to find another church which would be satisfactory. We just see through too much "junk." Besides being an avowed "judgaholic," I guess I just have been thru too much.


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Old 07-21-2010, 01:59 PM   #30
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Default Would it have been better to not have known?

The Local Church helped us to "see" all the "degradation" and unfortunately, once we have seen the degradation of the Local Church, it is the first "seeing" that becomes our greatest hindrance to fellowship. I guess that's what we used to call "wrecked outright."

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Old 07-21-2010, 07:21 PM   #31
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I miss the old Benny Hinn with the Hurricane styled hairdoo.

I used to rolaf! And then he'd blow someone over!

I'm in agreement with CMW, That boy can preach it when he wanna. There are so many things that bug me about that guy. But I've noticed( aside from the healing stuff) That when I close my eyes and listen to him, I find myself sitting up from my chair and wide eyed.

:justlurking: Hey when your done with that popcorn lets use the bucket for a special offering!
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Psalm 127 ►
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In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:55 PM   #32
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The Local Church helped us to "see" all the "degradation" and unfortunately, once we have seen the degradation of the Local Church, it is the first "seeing" that becomes our greatest hindrance to fellowship. I guess that's what we used to call "wrecked outright."

P.C.
Wrecked is right. In the LC we learned that Christianity is degraded. Then, we discover the LC is degraded too. That disappointment causes many to just walk away from it all, and go on, to a normal human life, like just about everyone else. That's when it's discovered that always trying to live by the Bible, or the Spirit, by The Body & the Church, is a burden that feels good to be free from.

My friend since Jr. High, and thru the LC, Lisa, called this evening. She's been contacted on Facebook by, I don't know, forty or fifty old LCer friends. She called to tell me about the death of one of the children of a couple we knew in the LC, of an overdose.

What a stunner! I remember the girl very well. She was very pretty, and always nice, polite, and sweet. Now I find out that her brother raped her when she was young, and her father physically abused her. Then, shocker of shockers, the brother she married in the LC, that from all outward appearances was a burning given to the Lord brother, was also physically abusing her. And to add insult to injury, the elders knew of it, and did nothing about it. I swear, you just can't trust your eyes.

And so many of those that have contacted her, many of them that condemned me when I left the LC, have since also walked from the LC, and went on, to a normal human life.

To think that I blindly gave my life to all that. I gave my life to what ended up being just an outward show. And when the show was over, all the actors just walked away, into the woodwork, melting into the maze of life. In the end I gave my life and heart to a human drama, with God added into the mix, to give the pretense the shimmer of both sincerity & urgency.

After the LC, it feels good to be human. Humanity was oppressed in the LC. That's why just about everyone that comes out of the LC says they don't care about their own or others, really. Unbelievers are often better at human care, than is found in the LC.

And so, since all of it is degraded, even the LC, after that, we are indeed wrecked.

Hey gang, let's be wrecked together. Both misery, and joy, loves company.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:40 AM   #33
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I miss the old Benny Hinn with the Hurricane styled hairdoo.

I used to rolaf! And then he'd blow someone over!
I'm in agreement with CMW, That boy can preach it when he wanna. There are so many things that bug me about that guy. But I've noticed( aside from the healing stuff) That when I close my eyes and listen to him, I find myself sitting up from my chair and wide eyed.

:justlurking: Hey when your done with that popcorn lets use the bucket for a special offering!
I'm sooo glad you totally understand where I'm coming from manna-man ! What I am learning to do and it does take a heartfelt DISCIPLINE is simply pay close attention to the Word of God someone is teaching/preaching. Whether they live with they teach/preach is between them and God. I have a bible. I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH, the Word of God but certainly God did appoint preachers/teachers/evangelists in our midsts.

When I was in the LC we had 4 leading brothers. Each one had a different gift and it was obvious to me. One could really preach the gospel at the 'love feasts'. But he was not very good at giving the message. Another was very good at TEACHING the Word of God but not sharing the gospel message.

I didn't look down at one because he couldn't teach or the other, because he couldn't 'preach'.

Hagee can really PREACH. I don't consider him a good teacher though. A good preacher yes. And I like that he blesses the congregation at the end of each service.

Benny can TEACH, really TEACH and it ain't convuleted like some of the others I have heard (Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Mike Muduch -UGH-) He's not like them. But I do sometimes scratch my head wondering how someone so anointed to teach and preach the gospel can have soo many things that bug people. I heard him preach the gospel and he ain't mamsy-pamsy when it comes to the Word of GOD for sure. So I'm learning to be soo judgmental and critical...only discerning so that I don't get duped.

As for the popcorn bucket...yes let's pass it around as an offering tool and then divide the goods among us all, or if we feel there is someone struggling beyond hope, then we give it to that person.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:44 AM   #34
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As for the popcorn bucket...yes let's pass it around as an offering tool and then divide the goods among us all, or if we feel there is someone struggling beyond hope, then we give it to that person.
Yeah, we could send it to sister Steward......
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:28 PM   #35
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I'm sooo glad you totally understand where I'm coming from manna-man ! What I am learning to do and it does take a heartfelt DISCIPLINE is simply pay close attention to the Word of God someone is teaching/preaching. Whether they live with they teach/preach is between them and God. I have a bible. I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH, the Word of God but certainly God did appoint preachers/teachers/evangelists in our midsts...
Yes sister CMW,

Part of the cost of being a minister of the gospel is to be accountable to one another as these pastors are. I pointed out on the other forum just now that my pastor meets with other pastors in the region. This is healthy behavior and oppertunity for correction and accountability. Just plain humble and healthy.

Till the whole world hears,

Don Jr.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:04 PM   #36
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Where did everybody go? Is it to exspensive to participate here? Is the cost too high?
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Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:17 PM   #37
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I think that it's hard for people like us, at our time in life, to find another church which would be satisfactory. We just see through too much "junk." Besides being an avowed "judgaholic," I guess I just have been thru too much.
I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:37 PM   #38
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I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together....whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.
Here is a quote from YPO that is worth reviewing: "Eventually, I got clear that the Lord had pushed me out the front door of the Local Church but I never got the word from Him about what was supposed to happen next. I think very many of us can appreciate this awkward position. And the answer is, of course, don’t do anything. Meet with every believer you can in any context that you can and let the Lord worry about the rest of it. Don’t join anything or start anything. You are already in everything that you need to be in. Anything else is a distraction.

Consequently, the main lesson I gained from my brief time among the saints in the Local Church was just how easy it is for religion to distract us from the reality of Christ. Or, as I’m fond of saying these days, how easy it is for a notion about “universal church” to destroy the ability to have the actual assembly. It’s both ironic and sad but even those places that readily picked up the practice of “The New Way” actually practiced it in an old way from the start because there was no other way for them to do it. To put it bluntly, the definition and practice of “The God-ordained Way” could never actually BE the God-ordained way but it could only become another denomination. Just assemble freely and assemble small and let the Lord as the Head worry about the building of His Body."


I loved that line, "Meet with every believer you can in every context you can and let the Lord worry about the rest of it", i.e. the building of the Body of Christ.

That's kind of what I meant when I said, "Don't get all religious" with the believers around you. Just receive them, however poor, pathetic, and "thin" their Christ might appear. Because when the veil is lifted you might find that yours is worse still, and you'll be glad for giving them a cup of cold water.

There was a song in "Smokey and the Bandit", which I used to sing when on the road in my salad days: "Wee got a looong way to go, and a short time to get there...."

The local church is not an organization; it is an event, and it occurs whenever two or more are gathered...
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Old 07-31-2010, 04:25 PM   #39
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When I got tired of the Lee adulation, I had to leave because how in the world was I going to stand up and express my observation ? But I found a small bunch from my locality who felt like I did but were quiet about it. They moved to a new locality and I tagged along.

Once there, everyone exploded with all kinds of stories about Lee and the church. We still loved the Lord and fellowship but all the venting also wiped us out so that before too long, everyone just went their separate ways. Including me. I felt lost at first but I did not want to go back to the LC as it was. I also had my own set of personal issues that I could not go to with anyone about.

Eventually.....it was just me and the LORD....in the wilderness.
Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.

But if you've passed thru the cauldron of the LC, you may have a crumb or two to sustain you; moments when the Spirit seemed so real that nothing else was real; moments when the Bible seemed to contain words of life rather than dead letters; moments when the Father was speaking to you thru the person next to you.

So you stagger on, and if a faint flicker remains in your heart you eventually realize that your crumbs are more generous than some nearby, who don't have a clue about this Jesus guy or the Father's love or the Spirit's provision.

So you feed them. You assemble with them and you realize that you have some counsel for them from your crucible of experiences.

Then, and here's an interesting point, you realize how much the Shepherd loved His sheep. The hireling flees from the wolf, but the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus knew that one of them would betray Him, but He stuck with His own, nevertheless, literally to the death.

Contrast that to our experience in the LC where we received a "vision" of the optimal organizational structure, and were willing to follow that to the end, but the saints themselves were quite expendable.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep.

The "cost" was paid in full, by Christ. My "cost" is to say, "Amen. Hallelujah", irrespective of whom, or what, is my immediate environment; and irrespective of how rubble-strewn my past appears, or the meager future that presents itself for consideration. Here, as John put it so well, is the endurance of the saints (Rev. 14:12).
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Old 07-31-2010, 04:49 PM   #40
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Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.
Amen! ....
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In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:45 PM   #41
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Where did everybody go? Is it to exspensive to participate here? Is the cost too high?
YEAAAAA !! There is still a few of us stragglers here ! Ya know how it is manna-man ! God loves us LCrs and former LCrs..but most former LCrs that post, prefer the 'other' forum.... sigh...

But I have a few comments to post on this thread...so stay tuned !
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:23 PM   #42
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Ending up in the wilderness is a good place.
I think so too as long as your heart is fixed on Jesus. It is a good place to solely rely on HIM and His Holy Spirit to teach you, guide you and lead you. This is the only way a religious person who is trying to shed the old wine skin can truly grow and be enlightened...little by little.


Quote:
When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.
Let me know if you agree with the following assessment: When we got saved, truly saved, understanding the power of the Cleansing Blood in our lives, we believed we were truly set free ! We were bound by sin. Now we were free. But before too long, we became bound again by religion...be it the LC or any other denomination or fellowship group.

So back to square one we go.
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At least in the wilderness you know where you are.
Yeppers...but it's also a dangerous place because it is there we are more likely to go back to our former ways, or worst, forgetting the Saving Grace of the Lord Jesus.

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But if you've passed thru the cauldron of the LC, you may have a crumb or two to sustain you; moments when the Spirit seemed so real that nothing else was real; moments when the Bible seemed to contain words of life rather than dead letters; moments when the Father was speaking to you thru the person next to you.
Exactly. But let me throw a caveat here. What happened to me was I at times seemed to realize some of the things we were taught in the LC were/are true. OF COURSE some of it is ! We used the Bible not the Quran or a buddhist book ! So, being I wasn't BURNED like many of the former LCrs were, I would ask myself if I ought to return to the LC ! But the few times I went to the meetings in the last few years, the answer was perfectly clear: NO !
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So you stagger on, and if a faint flicker remains in your heart you eventually realize that your crumbs are more generous than some nearby, who don't have a clue about this Jesus guy or the Father's love or the Spirit's provision.
This is EXACTLY what sustained me !! Throughout my entire time in the wilderness, I would check the eternal flame to see if it was still burning. It may not have been very bright but it sure was flickering. Thank You JESUS!

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So you feed them. You assemble with them and you realize that you have some counsel for them from your crucible of experiences.
We have to..at least for a while so that we can shed the ole' wine skin. Otherwise, as much as we no longer desire to be in the LC, we still have the LC wineskin. Either we move on in Christ, fellowshipping with others unlike us OR we prefer the company of the world that could very well lead us away from Jesus into sin.

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In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep. .
Oh... have I got a 'testimony' to share with you !! The past few months have wreacked HELL on my mortal body. My body took a turn for the worst, especially the last 2-3 weeks. None of you knew of the excruciating pain I was enduring. I'm not a big girl at all. But this blasted cursed affliction..(the affliction is cursed--- NOT ME) was wreaking havoc to the point I could barely walk. On one occassion I fell trying to get out of bed because my ankles were soo weak and in much pain. I rarely cry but at this point, I did. WHERE IS MY HEALER ? WHERE IS MY DELIVERER? MY SAVIOUR ??

Now, right about this time, my childhood friend who is a 'worldly' Christian tells me God has been telling her to come over and clean my house. She had not been over in a very long time and because I have not been well, my house was a mess. To make it worst, my pets had many accidents and I barely cleaned the carpet.

Last Saturday night, the pain became unbareable and at midnight I called my friend Normie who lives 30 minutes away. I was crying with pain and asked if she could come over with some Ibuprofin. We would decide when she came if I'd go to the hospital.

When she arrived, I told her how embarrassed I was for my house to be this way. What came out of me was the reason I wouldn't ask for help even though she already had heard from God was I feared rejection.

Long story...she was a GOD SENT. She cleaned and scrubbed my house, checking on me every hour to see how I was. While I did not go to the hospital, she was very worried about me.

On Wednesday, we were outside when my next door neighbors came to check up on me. Dan told me if I guzzled down a few beers, I'd be just fine. So my friend says she could use a beer and so he went and got her one.

The entire time she was here, while she prayed and I prayed, she refused to read the Word or listen to any teachings from me or anyone else.

At the end of the 'day'........she proved to be a true blue Christian friend. She heard the Voice of GOD and told me TWICE He told her to come over. She stayed with me the entire week taking good care of me and by Friday, the worst seemed to be behind me. So WHAT she likes to have a beer or 2 now and then !! So what if she does not like going to 'church'. I am not out of the woodworks whatsoever but I can at least walk slowly, not dragging my feet, afraid to fall.

I had to share this experience because for all the 'bible studies', church gatherings...at the end of the day, WHO do you think God is going to reward ?

You bet our GOD is going to reward and bless my friend who took extra good care of me !
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:46 PM   #43
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You bet our GOD is going to reward and bless my friend who took extra good care of me !
Amen I believe it. On line we can only give "virtual" cups of water, tho the encouragement and recognition sometimes does mean so much.

But God will send someone to aid us. God always does.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:36 AM   #44
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I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.
Your comments are most appreciated, brother aron.

Grace to you.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:54 AM   #45
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Then, and here's an interesting point, you realize how much the Shepherd loved His sheep. The hireling flees from the wolf, but the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus knew that one of them would betray Him, but He stuck with His own, nevertheless, literally to the death.

Contrast that to our experience in the LC where we received a "vision" of the optimal organizational structure, and were willing to follow that to the end, but the saints themselves were quite expendable.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep.
I just recently saw clearly that 1 Cor. 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14.

The "Love Chapter" is all about how we meet.

Marriage is nowhere mentioned in that chapter and teaching it as if it expresses a romantic notion Paul had about marriage while ignoring the actual context is a subtle twisting that may be a bad idea. (Chapter 14 indicates Paul had other ideas about marriage, actually.)

Paul says to stop being childish and to start meeting in love.
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:49 AM   #46
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I just recently saw clearly that 1 Cor. 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14.

The "Love Chapter" is all about how we meet.

Paul says to stop being childish and to start meeting in love.
I recently ran into a christian friend, and he asked me about something, and I sensed an opportunity to move to a "high theme" that I have been recently impressed with.

So I made some preparatory remarks; because he is fairly constituted I felt that I could give him a "double whammy" of a segue into my topic of choice.

But he challenged me on one of my preliminary points, and we got sidetracked into his interest. He kept saying, "Wow, that's amazing; I never saw that before". At one point I just shoehorned my "high peak theme" into the conversation, and he ignored it and went back to how amazing my opening remarks were to him.

At that point I remembered the (in)famous remark of Nee about playing piano to cows, and I had a strong inner response that maybe I was the cow, trying to play piano. Maybe the Holy Spirit wanted him to see something besides my "grand theme".

So I dropped my burden, and his new interest became our theme. He became, for a while, the featured speaker, and I dropped into a supporting role. And a couple of my supporting points pleased us both immensely. They were delivered, impromptu, by my "intuition", or a random search of my memory banks, or the Holy Spirit Himself, who knows?

Anyway, we both became very pleased, and satisfied with the conversation, and he and I both parted like Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch: each rejoicing in his good fortune at partaking for a moment of the glorious corporate flow.

I cannot impose the Spirit's speaking into another's heart. I can only speak, and testify, and witness of the glorious 'parousia'. It is enough. Jesus meets each, right where they are. Why should I do otherwise? We are already "meeting on the proper ground".
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:47 PM   #47
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So I dropped my burden, and his new interest became our theme. He became, for a while, the featured speaker, and I dropped into a supporting role. And a couple of my supporting points pleased us both immensely. They were delivered, impromptu, by my "intuition", or a random search of my memory banks, or the Holy Spirit Himself, who knows?
1Cr 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:09 AM   #48
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Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.
I'm not sure that we speak very clearly concerning Babylon. Besides the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great," Babylon was not a choice. It was exile. They were taken to Babylon. They did not sell their chalet in Bethlehem and load the Mayflower moving van and decide that Babylon seemed like a good place to go. No. God allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites captive and take them away.

The way we speak about Babylon, it is somewhere we choose to be. A place of our own making.

Now it is true that not all went back to Jerusalem when the first edict for their release came. But those that stayed behind were not spoken of as fallen Jews. In fact, unless I remember my stories incorrectly, at least one of the significant leaders was willfully serving the King of Babylon/Persia when he came to know that the ones that did go back were having trouble. A righteous man living almost as part of the household of a pagan king was called to get the "remnant" back on track. No chastisement for not having already gone back. No quarantine to make sure he was going to go along with things in Jerusalem.

And at least partly the result of the Jews that did not go back from the various captivities, there were Jews all over the known world ready for Philip, Peter, Paul, John, and others to speak to throughout Asia and even into Europe as the church spread.

So how is it that we have created a metaphorical Babylon that is Christian, not pagan, and is a choice to join rather than punishment? Lee said it. And it was so. (And there was much rejoicing — and popcorn testimonies.)
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:29 AM   #49
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Lee said it. And it was so. (And there was much rejoicing — and popcorn testimonies.)

Popcorn testimonies ! Those were the days !
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:39 PM   #50
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not sure that we speak very clearly concerning Babylon. Besides the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great," Babylon was not a choice. It was exile. They were taken to Babylon. They did not sell their chalet in Bethlehem and load the Mayflower moving van and decide that Babylon seemed like a good place to go. No. God allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites captive and take them away.
I was speaking regarding the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great". It seemed connected to the less-than-sanguine reviews 5 of the 7 churches in Asia received, earlier in the same book (Revelation), which seemed related to the gospels' less-than-sanguine reviews the religious die-hards of Israel received "you brood of vipers...whitewashed tombs, etc", which seemed like a spiritual captivity.

But I didn't make all my assumptions explicit, so I apologize for tossing out my hermeneutical nuggets so lightly. Obviously everything is today's opinion, and will be subject to revision as more information becomes available. I should, by rights, include such disclaimers with every pronouncement from my keyboard (I have a penchant for grandiose statements, which seem to me to make good copy).

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The way we speak about Babylon, it is somewhere we choose to be. A place of our own making.
I wasn't thinking about "choice" vs. "captivity". The whole free-will thing is much too mysterious for me to weigh in on. Sorry if my discussions seem to indicate strong leanings either way.

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Now it is true that not all went back to Jerusalem when the first edict for their release came. But those that stayed behind were not spoken of as fallen Jews. In fact, unless I remember my stories incorrectly, at least one of the significant leaders was willfully serving the King of Babylon/Persia when he came to know that the ones that did go back were having trouble. A righteous man living almost as part of the household of a pagan king was called to get the "remnant" back on track. No chastisement for not having already gone back. No quarantine to make sure he was going to go along with things in Jerusalem.
I guess, thinking aloud here, that when I use the word "Babylon" I am thinking of being religious. You can be in "Babylonian" in any group, LC included. But some are not, and might be called "overcoming". Who is "Babylonian" and who is "overcomer" is going to be revealed, perhaps by fire, and so I am not comfortable making assessments before the time.

CMW said she found herself in the wilderness. I was inferring that preceding that she was in Babylon. Again, all my assumptions were loaded into the statement, and without the needed disclaimers. Someday I will learn how to be both concise and readable and also "safe", or "well-grounded". Still working on that one.

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And at least partly the result of the Jews that did not go back from the various captivities, there were Jews all over the known world ready for Philip, Peter, Paul, John, and others to speak to throughout Asia and even into Europe as the church spread.
Also, the whole idea of "come out of her, my people" is not necessarily to bodily leave Assembly A, B, or C. But rather come out of your tired formalism, your empty traditions, your sanctimonious know-it-all truths, your judgmentalism, your kow-towing to supposed "authorities" who are really empty suits, your vain dogmas which you prop up with swords and staves and bluster, etc.

Those, again, are personal decisions made by individuals who once were in "Egypt", went into "the Good Land", but got seduced/captivated/distracted into an empty and sterile outward expression, minus the key ingredient, who is God.

So I was lumping CMW's testimony, and her "finding herself in the wilderness" to coming out of Babylon and having lost her original bearings on the good land.

But all of that was poetic license on my part, and should, by rights, have come with as much disclaimers as a used-car does.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:41 PM   #51
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I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.
We started to meet at one place this summer, and after the recent bible study, I was chatting with the minister, and he goes off on how "tongues have ceased." I could tell he had given that "message" a million times. Then my wife walks up, and I tried to warn him, and change the subject, but he was already "in motion," and could not stop.

Things were going fairly well at this new congregation until that night.

Now it seems, that was the end of that!

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue, like whether someone wants to celebrate their birthday. But to my wife ... if a minister is going to condemn all tongue-talkers ... roughly 50% of all professing evangelicals ... then ... well ... goodbye.

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:42 PM   #52
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Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.
I doubt it's the middle, Ohio! LOL

Paul gives explicit instructions on how to handle it in a meeting. I'm neither for nor against for my own part but if you're going to do it different from the way the Bible says, that's the uphill battle to me.

Those who choose to ignore what Paul wrote because of their preferences and unsupported religious teachings they received are generally not acting in either wisdom or love for the rest if it's creating a problem. Ditto for those who make it an issue at all, though.

Mostly it's not easy to fellowship with someone about their tongues speaking, I've found. I never know what they're talking about.
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:04 PM   #53
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Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue, like whether someone wants to celebrate their birthday. But to my wife ... if a minister is going to condemn all tongue-talkers ... roughly 50% of all professing evangelicals ... then ... well ... goodbye.

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.
Now Ohio... surely you don't think I was not going to throw in my .02 worth !

I have grabbled with this teaching too since every 'church' I've ever been to strongly believe in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' aka speaking in tongues.

Right now, I have to attend to other things. So I'll be back later to tackle the question.
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:20 PM   #54
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It is unfortunate that brothers and sisters insist one way or the other and as a result sets the path for more division. Previous posts have pointed out that love is ultimately the way. Paul's inclusion of chapter 13 was to give believers the most excellent way to take when matters of differences arise. He also relates this love to the maturity in life of a believer in verse 11, which states,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child." (1 Corinth. 13: 11, Darby translation)

I have often pondered over this verse and have related it practically with the normal function in a family. For example, sometimes a child may say or do something inappropriate among adults within a family, but the adults because of their maturity will not react too strongly to the child's actions. In love, they will admonish and correct and not to embarrass the little one.

In chapter 12 of first Corinthians, Paul explains the wonderful diversity amongst all the members, having different gifts, ministries (services, if you wish), and operations. He further goes on to deal with the problem, which was taking place in Corinth - the matter of tongue speaking. More specifically, the problem was NOT tongue speaking. The problem was its over-emphasis to the detriment of the exercise of other's gifts, ministries, and operations. As a continued illustration with the family, we all know that in a family with a good number of children, there are often times when one child likes to show off or be the center of attention at the expense of the other children. A wise parent who recognizes this would then take steps to bring some balance back to the family dynamics so as to return the family to a healthy atmosphere where all the children and adults can thrive together. This requires a healthy, loving atmosphere, where, although mistakes are made, love eventually covers them. Was it not another apostle who said, "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8, NIV)?

In chapter 14 of first Corinthians you see clearly Paul's balanced and loving words to the believers, "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." (1 Corinth. 14: 39-40, NIV) Prior to this he also stated that "each on has". This was spoken so as to adjust the one or few who equated the eye to the whole body (1 Corinth. 12:17, NIV).

In conclusion, let us all heed the Scriptures and do what is profitable for building all our brothers and sisters and not be quick to pass judgment on he/she, for are we greater than God? Is He not the One who saved them and truly know their true value to Him? So, let us each walk soberly and with a spirit of love for the sake of His testimony.

Grace and peace to you all,
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:47 PM   #55
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Ohio,

seems like that fellowship has a standing litmus test regarding tongues, with your friend the pastor acting as the gatekeeper. That test is probably a trojan horse for other control mechanisms, just as the LC litmus test of "the ground of oneness" became the facilitator of "the ministry" to reign.

So, what to say? A: it's a crying shame when christians can't greet one another in Christ, and leave it at that. Sorry you have to run into such.

B: Praise the Lord, and move on. Like I said, I suppose there are lots of other things lurking behind the "tongues" issue, and it's promulgator, that you met.

But I would warrant that if you are a believer on the earth, there is fellowship waiting for you. The Lord has prepared it for you. He is rich to all who call on His name.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:09 PM   #56
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Ohio,

Further marginally useful thoughts and experiences:

Rather than going back into church fellowship through the front door on Suday morning at 10 am and running the gauntlet of Pastor Bob and his disciples and their pet doctrines, which I was not in the mood for after the LCs, I started small and had fellowship with believers I met on the way. I was determined to "amen" as much as possible every christian I ran across.

So I started putting my "christ" out there, front and center, and gradually over time I began to build a nice little support network. I ran into organizational feelers along the way: "What church do you go to?"; and "Well, my pastor says..." but by and large I found people receptive to just plain old faith.

So eventually I ran up into organized christianity in various forms, and on various levels, from formal to informal, but it was within the context of existant, respectful, mutually worthwhile relationships based on faith in Jesus Christ. So I mostly avoided the "quenching of the spirit" kind of experiences you seem to be describing.

The Lord always provides a way for His sheep.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:42 PM   #57
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Now Ohio... surely you don't think I was not going to throw in my .02 worth !

I have grabbled with this teaching too since every 'church' I've ever been to strongly believe in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' aka speaking in tongues.

Right now, I have to attend to other things. So I'll be back later to tackle the question.
I was hoping you would pass by sometime soon.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:58 PM   #58
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I doubt it's the middle, Ohio! LOL

Paul gives explicit instructions on how to handle it in a meeting. I'm neither for nor against for my own part but if you're going to do it different from the way the Bible says, that's the uphill battle to me.

Those who choose to ignore what Paul wrote because of their preferences and unsupported religious teachings they received are generally not acting in either wisdom or love for the rest if it's creating a problem. Ditto for those who make it an issue at all, though.

Mostly it's not easy to fellowship with someone about their tongues speaking, I've found. I never know what they're talking about.
By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

When I read Paul, I see a neutral position. When others read Paul they only see the verses they like.

I told the pastor that I viewed tongues like celebrating days. In Gal 4.10-11, Paul says "you observe days, I am afraid of you, having labored in vain." Yet in Rom 14.4-8 says, "one man esteems one day above another, the other esteems all days alike. Let each be persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, let him regard it to the Lord."

I need some wisdom here. Believe it or not, verse wars have never (or rarely) worked for me. Both sides have built the wall, both sides are well entrenched with ammunition, and both sides like to keep the wall in place. I see the wall and look the other way. My wife sees the wall and runs.

We may be running a long time.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:07 PM   #59
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Ohio,

seems like that fellowship has a standing litmus test regarding tongues, with your friend the pastor acting as the gatekeeper. That test is probably a trojan horse for other control mechanisms, just as the LC litmus test of "the ground of oneness" became the facilitator of "the ministry" to reign.

So, what to say? A: it's a crying shame when christians can't greet one another in Christ, and leave it at that. Sorry you have to run into such.

B: Praise the Lord, and move on. Like I said, I suppose there are lots of other things lurking behind the "tongues" issue, and it's promulgator, that you met.

But I would warrant that if you are a believer on the earth, there is fellowship waiting for you. The Lord has prepared it for you. He is rich to all who call on His name.
Thanks Aron.

You are right about the litmus tests. I had hoped that I wouldn't have to face these, but during the last visit I heard distant rumblings of a second litmus test -- baptism.

The sad thing is that the spiel on tongues came out of no where. I'm the last person who needs to hear that. I don't know what got him going. Until then our fellowship was so sweet. We had even gone to a pig roast at a family's home, and made a lot of friends.

Now I feel I may be roasted next. My wife doesn't want to go back.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:01 PM   #60
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Now I feel I may be roasted next. My wife doesn't want to go back.
All I can say is, "think small". Then, when the inevitable roasting occurs, the bonfire will also be small.

Let me put it another way. We are in enemy territory. The world, as we know, is under the evil one. When we christians attempt to use conventional means to address God's adversary, we end up looking like the U.S. in Afghanistan. Or worse.

Jesus, like David before Him, was a brilliant unconventional, "guerilla" warrior. David eventually slipped, numbering his troops and admiring Bathsheba from his balcony. Jesus never slipped.

That's why I said going in the front door for Pastor Bob and company to vet you may not be the way for you to go.

Just thinking aloud here. I really don't know anything at all.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:23 PM   #61
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When I read Paul, I see a neutral position. When others read Paul they only see the verses they like.
Brother?

I don't believe this is "neutral" with regard to Paul's teaching on how to have tongues in the Christian meeting, is it?

Quote:
1Cr 14:18 ESV
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Cr 14:19 ESV
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1Cr 14:20 ESV
Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.
1Cr 14:21 ESV
In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord."
1Cr 14:22 ESV
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Cr 14:23 ESV
If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cr 14:24 ESV
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cr 14:25 ESV
the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cr 14:26 ESV
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cr 14:27 ESV
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cr 14:28 ESV
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
If someone says, as one prominent local pastor told me one day, "We don't believe that here," when I showed him verses 27-28, they say so to their own loss, in my view. I'm not interested in making this a law, of course, but there seems to be a clear prinicple to minimize the role of tongues in the meetings. We can perhaps be more liberal than Paul without ignoring his position entirely. His directions seems reasonable and helpful, but should never be rigidly and religiously applied. Nevertheless, IMHO, we should in general accept Paul's exhortation to limit to 2-3 and only then with interpretation. Otherwise, the meetings risk get out of hand such that visitors think we're crazy and the building up itself suffers.

"I would rather" doesn't seem "neutral" at all to me but is kind of expressly taking a position.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:37 AM   #62
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I don't believe this is "neutral" with regard to Paul's teaching on how to have tongues in the Christian meeting, is it?

"I would rather" doesn't seem "neutral" at all to me but is kind of expressly taking a position.
They have their verses too:

14.2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God ... in spirit he speaks mysteries.

14.4 He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself

14.5 Now I desire that you all speak in tongues

14.18 I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all.


Pentecostals do distinguish messages in tongues (14.5) from praying in tongues (14.2) Having spent a considerable time in that setting, I have to say that it is not as simple as fundamentals believe. Healings, tongues, and deliverances are very real and of the Lord.

But ... the point of the discussion is not tongues per se, rather it is the attitudes each side has about tongues. And ... each side has a definite attitude that comes forth to hinder fellowship, and the genuine love that Paul speaks of in chap. 13. That's why I compared tongues to circumcision in the early church. They both should be non-issues in the church, but unfortunately, they are not.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:41 AM   #63
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They have their verses too:
Quoting verses out of context to support my opinion or to refute those of another is a religious game I don't play any more.

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing.


Grace to you.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:42 AM   #64
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By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.
And does this mean that those that are not "evangelical" are simply not Christians? I know you don't mean that. But are we still caught in an us v them when we dismiss Christians outside of evangelicalism? Are we a little more inclusive than the LC, but still short of the goal?

Of course, the statistic is what it is. It is phrased the way it is. Not much we can so with that.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:50 AM   #65
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And does this mean that those that are not "evangelical" are simply not Christians? I know you don't mean that. But are we still caught in an us v them when we dismiss Christians outside of evangelicalism? Are we a little more inclusive than the LC, but still short of the goal?

Of course, the statistic is what it is. It is phrased the way it is. Not much we can so with that.
Only distinguishing tares from the professing wheat.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:51 AM   #66
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We started to meet at one place this summer, and after the recent bible study, I was chatting with the minister, and he goes off on how "tongues have ceased." I could tell he had given that "message" a million times. Then my wife walks up, and I tried to warn him, and change the subject, but he was already "in motion," and could not stop.

Things were going fairly well at this new congregation until that night.

Now it seems, that was the end of that!

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue,

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.
Here I am !

Like you Ohio, I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter. On occassion BY FAiTH, I will pray in tongues. I say by FAITH, because I have never had a 'spontaneous' experience as many seem to have had where out of no where they began to pray/speak in an uncomprehensible language which many call a 'heavenly language'. I have to BELIEVE the Holy Spirit is praying in this heavenly language and I usually ask HIM to before I begin. When I pray in 'tongues', I usually take this route when I don't know HOW to pray for a particular situation.

Most of us who left the LC left with one more 'attitude' on tongue speaking. We didn't speak / pray in tongues so 'it's not of the Lord because we were told the same thing the pastor said, 'tongues have ceased'. Like blind sheep, we believed it.

I am 'open' to pray in tongues but I do not like going to corporate prayer meetings where the entire session is tongue praying. That is how it is at the church I last attended for several years. They're kind of double speak. On the one hand they don't 'force' anyone to pray in tongues but will make you feel guilty if you don't. The pastors' made a big hup dee doo about praying in tongues for hours & hours & hours and how 'enlightened' they became by the Holy Spirit. Maybe.

BUT.......I look at the FRUIT. If people do not know how to pray the Word of God, if they are not trained to speak the Word of God, if their messages are recycled messages, I don't care how much time a person 'prays in tongues' I don't know if it's reaching the Throne Room ! How do I KNOW they are truly praying by the Power of the Holy Spirit if they don't know the Word of God.

To those who strongly endorse tongue praying, I ask WHERE is the interpretation ? No one I know has ever interpreted a tongue but everyone sure can speak it ! On occasion, I have asked God to give me the gift of interpretation because there have been times I have heard a person pray in tongues and it sounds like it is a LANGUAGE ! Very, very beautiful. I have also heard of people praying in tongues and it actually IS a foreign language and someone understands exactly what is being said.

Now the Word says that tongue praying is to edify yourself only. So why the 'corporate' tongue praying ? I really hate that.

On the other hand, when I hear someone say 'tongues have ceased', I keep my arms length from them too. They're wayyy too set in their ways.

So if you want to pray in tongues, ask the Holy Spirit to pray through you and believe you are if you don't spontaneous do it.

Either way, we ought to be training ourselves daily to speak the Word of God, that we might wax strong in the power of His Might. I don't know if tongues will strengthen our innerman but I know for a fact the Word of God does !
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:00 AM   #67
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Quoting verses out of context to support my opinion or to refute those of another is a religious game I don't play any more.

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing.


Grace to you.
Brother YP,

I was looking for some prudent wisdom for a difficult situation, so I presented verses to help explain the other side's views, in order to help the dialog, or so I thought.

Never intended to play religious games or "verse wars" with you or anybody. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding.

This is the second time I have attempted to get some insight about the "tongues conflict" among Christians on the forums. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out. I think I'll just drop it.

Peace.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:08 AM   #68
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By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.
Ohio,
The 'church' is constantly 'changing'. The Charasmatics and Word of Faith (WoF) have come out of the Pentecostal movement. Most pray/speak in tongues but they don't consider themselves Pentecostals.

Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Oral Roberts (rip), Paula White, Jesse Duplantis are part of the WoF clan. Perry Stone & Rod Parsley have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.

I am only naming these people because I am very familiar with their minisitries and know something about Pentecostals, Charasmatics & WoF.

Charles Stanley a well known Baptist preacher/teacher is not Pentecostal or WoF. He might be considered a Fundamental Charasmatic.

SHEESH !!! LORD have Mercy !
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:10 PM   #69
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Ohio,
The 'church' is constantly 'changing'. The Charasmatics and Word of Faith (WoF) have come out of the Pentecostal movement. Most pray/speak in tongues but they don't consider themselves Pentecostals.

Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Oral Roberts (rip), Paula White, Jesse Duplantis are part of the WoF clan. Perry Stone & Rod Parsley have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.

I am only naming these people because I am very familiar with their minisitries and know something about Pentecostals, Charasmatics & WoF.

Charles Stanley a well known Baptist preacher/teacher is not Pentecostal or WoF. He might be considered a Fundamental Charasmatic.

SHEESH !!! LORD have Mercy !
Whew, way too much information!

The way I heard it, and I am just paraphrasing what I thought I heard, was basically that those who embrace the so-called "full gospel" now equal in number with those who don't.

But ... sorry I said that, as I said tongues and gifts are a dividing wall among most believers -- "neutral you cannot be!"
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:16 PM   #70
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Brother YP,

I was looking for some prudent wisdom for a difficult situation, so I presented verses to help explain the other side's views, in order to help the dialog, or so I thought.

Never intended to play religious games or "verse wars" with you or anybody. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding.

This is the second time I have attempted to get some insight about the "tongues conflict" among Christians on the forums. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out. I think I'll just drop it.

Peace.
The "prudent wisdom" you seek is in the words of scripture, Ohio.

Don't worry about what the separate camps use to separate themselves...
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:02 AM   #71
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[Persons] ... have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.
What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that their teaching is questionable? (Putting teaching in quotes as you did seems to indicate some question about whether it is really teaching.)
Does it mean that they have a "sound" or "way" when they "teach" (again, questionable)?
Does it mean that there is something special about their teaching that can be identified as "anointing"?
Does it mean that the have an anointing sometimes that really comes out?
Does it mean that they have a mannerism in their teaching that is presumed within certain circles to be "anointing"? (Read the last one with and without quotes around the word teaching.)
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:27 PM   #72
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:36 PM   #73
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Does it mean that they have a mannerism in their teaching that is presumed within certain circles to be "anointing"?
That's how I read it. Some people get into a "sing-songy" cadence when they are teaching. They use volume and speed modulations, and the listeners in the audience go, "Wow, they are in the Spirit", and become more receptive.

This type of delivery is also seen in places that don't emphasize tongues, such as the LCs. So I would call the LCs charismatic, or pentacostal, as well.

It's sort of like, "If I can berate my audience and they don't run for the door, then I can pretty much do what I want. I've got them."

I am guilty of this, occasionally. I love to shout at my listeners. Pacing, arm waving, etc. It is a subconscious impersonation of "the Spirit". Occasionally, it may even be the Spirit. But who knows where the line crosses?
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:32 AM   #74
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What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that their teaching is questionable? (Putting teaching in quotes as you did seems to indicate some question about whether it is really teaching.)
NO. the subject matter is not usually questionable.
Quote:
Does it mean that they have a "sound" or "way" when they "teach" (again, questionable)?Does it mean that there is something special about their teaching that can be identified as "anointing"?
Yes with explanation. This question is a little more difficult to answer. To those with a Pentecostal background, they will see it as the person speaking under the anointing. To those of us who are not familiar with the song & dance tune that comes upon them, we feel uncomfortable, whether they are the anointing or not.

Think about it in LC terms. To a newbie attending their first/second LC meeting, the reading the scriptures in a unison military tone, and hearing all the strong 'amens', can seem a bit over the top. Most feel uncomfortable at first because they are not used to seeing 'pray', read the scriptures and in one accord know exactly when to resound a loud AMEN. To the LSMrs/LCrs, it's a way of life. Not going through these motions would make them feel like a fish out of water. They're not accustomed to anything else but their way of doing things.


Quote:
Does it mean that the have an anointing sometimes that really comes out?
Yes. They will begin to feel different and sometimes say they 'feel the anointing.'

Quote:
Does it mean that they have a mannerism in their teaching that is presumed within certain circles to be "anointing"?
Yes. Rod Parsley and Perry Stone have strong Pentecostal backgrounds. They are fine teachers in their own right. They may be speaking 'normally' and suddenly they are 'overtaken' by a strong Presence of the Lord and they begin to talk faster, their tone of voice changes. After a few minutes of being 'charged up', they 'come down' and speak in a regular tone of voice.

I like Rod Parsley as a Man of God. However I can only take him in very small dosages. When he came to town, after 45 minutes of trying sooo very hard to accept the sing/song drama, I walked out. Perry Stone, who I like a WHOLE LOT is not nearly as bad as Parsley.

I also think it's a 'southern' thing...maybe that's where the phrase 'Southern Gospel' came from.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:48 AM   #75
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That's how I read it. Some people get into a "sing-songy" cadence when they are teaching. They use volume and speed modulations, and the listeners in the audience go, "Wow, they are in the Spirit", and become more receptive.
Ya nailed it on the head Aron.

Quote:
This type of delivery is also seen in places that don't emphasize tongues, such as the LCs. So I would call the LCs charismatic, or pentacostal, as well.
In labeling the LC, I would label them somewhere in between fundamental, conservative, charismatic but not Pentecostal. just my .02 worth.

Quote:
It's sort of like, "If I can berate my audience and they don't run for the door, then I can pretty much do what I want. I've got them."
If the message is truly Anointed from God, His Holy Spirit will speak to you and you won't want to leave. The way to know for sure if the message is anointed or just show, depends on how much time a person spends in the Presence of the LORD, meditating on His Word, speaking His Word, studying His Word. This is how we receive the discernment of the Holy Spirit. Remember, many can quote the Word and can be charasmatic in their own right but to discern whether they are truly under the anointing requires discernment.

And we must be very careful that we don't judge or criticize too quickly either. The LSM/LC taught us all to well how to criticize and judge our brethren. Sometimes the LORD will make us sit under someone who is anointed with the Word of God, has character, and integrity but has that Pentecostal song and dance anointing that comes out at times. We will KNOW we must endure because GOD is trying to shed the old wine skin, to burn out the wood, hay and stubble out of us give us to drink from a fresh fountain of living water.

As I continue to walk with God in this journey, I am learning it is ok to keep some things from the LC, some things other brethren do in praise / worship such as lifting up of the hands, clapping, jumping, sometimes simply being quiet. I am learning to listen carefully to the Voice of God.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:00 AM   #76
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CMW,

Just making sure I was hearing you right. Seems I was.

Aron,

"Charismatic" tends to mean Pentecostal in terms of religion. But there are many who are charismatic who are not Pentecostal. In the case of the LC, there are some charismatic leaders (and was a specific one in the past) but they are not Pentecostal.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #77
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Bingo ! Correcto !
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:42 AM   #78
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Aron,

"Charismatic" tends to mean Pentecostal in terms of religion. But there are many who are charismatic who are not Pentecostal. In the case of the LC, there are some charismatic leaders (and was a specific one in the past) but they are not Pentecostal.
Thanks for the correction. I was treating the terms as synonymous.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:38 PM   #79
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Thanks for the correction. I was treating the terms as synonymous.
And now we know which side of the tracks YOU come from!
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:44 PM   #80
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As I continue to walk with God in this journey, I am learning it is ok to keep some things from the LC, some things other brethren do in praise / worship such as lifting up of the hands, clapping, jumping, sometimes simply being quiet. I am learning to listen carefully to the Voice of God.

Wow! and Amen Dear Sister!

We should all learn as you are! Let us be open to what God has for us! Whatever it may be! Yes, lets listen Carefully....!

I'm prepared to look foolish and even plain stupid. What ever it takes!!!

Lets stand with stupid and be one with him for most likely we are stupid and need someone to stand with us.

Grace,

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:19 AM   #81
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Default Re: The Word.

Greetings Manna-man and all.....

It is great joy to post under the Logos: "THE WORD". The Word is God at hand!

Revelation 19


11And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, [called] Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness.
12And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; 13and [he is] clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God.

To know Him as the Word is unspeakable gift. It must be written.

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. If you have a business and I ask "what is your Logos" you will show me something written. The Rhema from our mouth bears witness to the Logos but can't speak it. But our hands can handle and must! Blessed be all who are entrusted and brought to the daily revelation of holy writing.

The New Testament is a Book of letter writing between the saints. In this practice the Word dwells among us. The world is drunken on speakings about the Word because until now none have handled the Word. But now the right hand of the fellowship which James and the apostles gave to Paul to bring to us is arising hand to hand. Hand in hand with the Father we walk and the Word is God between us.

Scribe
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:40 PM   #82
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I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life"

Amd he is!
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Old 11-16-2010, 08:04 PM   #83
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I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life"

Amd he is!
Amen! Unregistered Guest.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:27 PM   #84
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Default Re: The Word.

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Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Greetings Manna-man and all.....
Amen Scribe,

Jesus is our Word/Daily Bread for today. May we hear His Spirit call!

Grace to you Scribe!

Don Jr
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 11-19-2010, 09:46 AM   #85
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Default Re: The Word.

What marvel is the Word! Men write in the world but do not come to the knowledge of the Truth. But John has written that the Word is the Truth. John 17:17. His writing was the truth because he mixed faith with the Word as He wrote. He had a Word. He attended to the Word. And He was sanctified by his writing. The Father is going to bring all His children to a revelation of the Word at hand! The Word is God and man has faith. What a mystery is revealed when the Word is written. Each saint has his Word. John 17:20. Each day that Word is the anointing that teaches him. Leaning upon his pen the saint is lead line upon line into the house of the Word.

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Old 11-22-2010, 05:31 PM   #86
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Amen Scribe,

Jesus is our Word/Daily Bread for today. May we hear His Spirit call!

Grace to you Scribe!

Don Jr
Thank you for the grace you have sent to me Manna-man Don jr. Grace has been a mystery to me until recent days, now it unfolds in my understanding. I am thankful that Grace has come to me through you. What a mystery!

Scribe
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:24 AM   #87
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Thank you for the grace you have sent to me Manna-man Don jr. Grace has been a mystery to me until recent days, now it unfolds in my understanding. I am thankful that Grace has come to me through you. What a mystery!

Scribe
Yes,...What a mystery!

That grace can flow from our God/Christ into His body/us!

To fully grasp and appreciate the splendor of this "grace" is our homework project for eternity.

And this is just the beginning! To Know such a Person.

May we all appreciate more and more His love/grace that endures forever!

Peace brother Scribe,

Don Jr.
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:42 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by manna-man View Post
Yes,...What a mystery!

That grace can flow from our God/Christ into His body/us!

To fully grasp and appreciate the splendor of this "grace" is our homework project for eternity.

And this is just the beginning! To Know such a Person.

May we all appreciate more and more His love/grace that endures forever!

Peace brother Scribe,

Don Jr.
Greetings Manna-man. Glorious study indeed is grace. In my present experience I see, that as grace passes through a man, he goes through certain trials in which he gains Christ. What he goes through and his victory in it become added into the grace of God to be imparted to others.

We of course have this grace because it is formed in Jesus. All He is and has and has experienced has become this grace. But not only. His grace has also passed through Paul. We need Paul's experience in our grace. So Paul writes to the Philppians in chapter one

3I thank my God for my whole remembrance of you,

4constantly in my every supplication, making the supplication for you all with joy,
5because of your fellowship with the gospel, from the first day until now;
6having confidence of this very thing, that he who has begun in you a good work will complete it unto Jesus Christ's day: 7as it is righteous for me to think this as to you all, because ye have *me* in your hearts, and that both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the glad tidings ye are all participators in my grace.


Paul is confident that He who has began a good work in us will complete it. He knows it is righteous for him to think this- Because "you have me in your hearts". I do not think he means in a sentimental way. He means that he was been mingled into the gospel and imparted into our heart. In all his experience and suffering with the gospel he has been reduced and mingled into the grace to be in us. This is his confidence. So now in the defence and confirmation of Paul's gospel we are partakers of his grace. And not only so dear brother, that grace grows. For as we partaker of Paul's grace we have our own particular tirals and sufferings in the gosepl. This compounds into the grace to be imparted to others.

Yes what mystery. It is no small thing to receive grace from your brother. I am thankful.

Scribe
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:58 PM   #89
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Default Re: The Word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Greetings Manna-man. Glorious study indeed is grace. In my present experience I see, that as grace passes through a man, he goes through certain trials in which he gains Christ. What he goes through and his victory in it become added into the grace of God to be imparted to others.

We of course have this grace because it is formed in Jesus. All He is and has and has experienced has become this grace. But not only. His grace has also passed through Paul. We need Paul's experience in our grace. So Paul writes to the Philppians in chapter one

3I thank my God for my whole remembrance of you,

4constantly in my every supplication, making the supplication for you all with joy,
5because of your fellowship with the gospel, from the first day until now;
6having confidence of this very thing, that he who has begun in you a good work will complete it unto Jesus Christ's day: 7as it is righteous for me to think this as to you all, because ye have *me* in your hearts, and that both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the glad tidings ye are all participators in my grace.


Paul is confident that He who has began a good work in us will complete it. He knows it is righteous for him to think this- Because "you have me in your hearts". I do not think he means in a sentimental way. He means that he was been mingled into the gospel and imparted into our heart. In all his experience and suffering with the gospel he has been reduced and mingled into the grace to be in us. This is his confidence. So now in the defence and confirmation of Paul's gospel we are partakers of his grace. And not only so dear brother, that grace grows. For as we partaker of Paul's grace we have our own particular tirals and sufferings in the gosepl. This compounds into the grace to be imparted to others.

Yes what mystery. It is no small thing to receive grace from your brother. I am thankful.

Scribe
It's been quite a while since there's been activity on this blog. May The Lord continue to preserve it!

I love Scribes humble spirit.

Here are some Bible verses on humility

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Ephesians 4:2 | NIV

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.
Philippians 2:3 | NIV

When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
Proverbs 11:2 | NIV

Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
Romans 12:16 | NIV

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:10 | NIV

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.
1 Peter 3:3-4 | NIV

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Colossians 3:12 | NIV

Pride brings a person low,
but the lowly in spirit gain honor.
Proverbs 29:23 | NIV
Humility is the fear of the Lord;
its wages are riches and honor and life.
Proverbs 22:4 | NIV

Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
1 Peter 5:6 | NIV
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 | NIV

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
James 3:13 | NIV

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:29-30 | NIV

Before a downfall the heart is haughty,
but humility comes before honor.
Proverbs 18:12 | NIV
Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8 | NIV

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”
Mark 9:35 | NIV

God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.
1 Corinthians 1:28-29 | NIV

So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 6:2 | NIV

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8 | NIV

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Colossians 3:18-19 | NIV

Wisdom’s instruction is to fear the Lord,
and humility comes before honor.
Proverbs 15:33 | NIV

Good and upright is the Lord;
therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.
He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
Psalm 25:8-9 | NIV

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Galatians 5:13 | NIV

Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”
Luke 9:48 | NIV
To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 4:20 | NIV
__________________
Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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