Posts Related to the Poster Shattered

As I have started to read the many threads found on this website, the first thing that stands out as a women, is the inability for current or even past LC members to even acknowledge the abuse of women found in this cult started by WN. Not one person has been able to even address the theme of spiritual abuse started with WN in this thread. I understand, as fellow women survivors have told me, that getting any recognition of this will be near impossible from any male current, or ex-LC member. The guilt of what you have done, and promoted is far too much for you to even acknowledge. Of the three closest families growing up in the LC to me, all six daughters have been abused. Despite this, I cannot be made silent. Everyone in this forum must acknowledge what the ideology of this cult does to women across this globe or I promise you, God will judge you. I doubt the first person Jesus presented his resurrected self to would be someone he judged as inferior. “Mark 16:9: Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.” As stated in the beginning of this thread, WN was a sexual deviant. This was followed by sexual abuses by WL and his family. These are facts. You cannot deny this. This is clearly to those outside of this cult, 99% of the educated world, a horrific example of men using fear, God and eternal damnation as a means to empower themselves and selfishly live a life abusing their families as a personal means to save themselves from a false God. While I know none of you will admit or acknowledge any of this, I know the words you are currently reading may plant the seed of “Dis-Brainwashing”, if I may make up a term. While you all can nit-pick at the historical veracity of events, which will never end, because none of this can be absolutely proven, much like the bible. I hope that your tenacity at denying reality and nit picking absurd details helps you find Truth and God, truly. All of you need to pray about what is CURRENTLY happening in the church and how it all started with monsters like WN and WL. Look at your life around you, enter the world, and see what monsters the LC and Satan himself have created.

Again, I will ask, who here will address the theme of sexual and spiritual abuse started by WN? Discussing the veracity of published documents will lead you nowhere. Instead, I challenge all of you to address the issues of gross sexual abuse surounding the LC in current times.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As I have started to read the many threads found on this website, the first thing that stands out as a women, is the inability for current or even past LC members to even acknowledge the abuse of women found in this cult started by WN. Not one person has been able to even address the theme of spiritual abuse started with WN in this thread.

...

Again, I will ask, who here will address the theme of sexual and spiritual abuse started by WN? Discussing the veracity of published documents will lead you nowhere. Instead, I challenge all of you to address the issues of gross sexual abuse surounding the LC in current times.

Thanks for posting. I appreciate your frustration. But to say that not one person has acknowledge the abuse of women in the LC is not accurate. Maybe this subject hasn't been discussed lately, but it has appeared before, particularly under discussion of Jane Anderson, and the unrighteous disciplining she was subjected to by the male bullies in the LC like Ray Graver and Benson Phillips.

If you are claiming specifically about Nee, what evidence do you have of this abuse? How can we discuss the issue without input of facts?

If you wish to add to the discussion some information about the LC treatment of women, please do. We need more female posters and they are heartily welcomed.

In particular, please elaborate on your claim of "gross sexual abuse surrounding the LC." What specifically are you talking about?

Thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hasn’t it been clearly delineated in this forum and all over the internet, published books, articles and tapes that there is a culture of silence in the LC? And because of this very topic, many women are not going to speak up for fear of Gods judgments and overstepping their “duty” as a women, Chuck even told them that himself. Furthermore, didn’t Charles Manson’s followers defend him?

Horribly insulting and discrediting to your case for you to even place these two Charles' into the same paragraph.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As stated in the beginning of this thread, WN was a sexual deviant. This was followed by sexual abuses by WL and his family. These are facts. You cannot deny this...none of this can be absolutely proven

Sensible people when presented with new information about a deceased figure do not immediately accept it as undeniable facts even though it cannot be absolutely proven. To expect that response from those in this forum is unreasonable. However to expect open discussion and acceptance that the new (to us) claims regarding Watchman Nee are within the real of possibility is reasonable and that is what is happening. I, for one, am thankful new documentation is coming out regarding Watchman Nee so we have more to work with when we piece his life and work together because I know Witness Lee's and LSM's version of events if fractionally true at all are self-serving.

Regarding Witness Lee in this and other forums disgust and outrage has been expressed at the abusive behavior of his son towards women and the cover up of this abuse by Witness Lee, coworkers and elders for decades. When this finally exploded publicly due to the efforts of the family of his latest female victim it resulted in a major division in The Church in Anaheim and most LCs in Europe formally in writing disassociated themselves from LSM where this particular son was the General Manager and considered to be Witness Lee's "top coworker". Shortly thereafter John Ingalls wrote a book titled: Speaking the Truth in Love which addresses these events in some detail. Needless to say Witness Lee and the LSM immediately started a smear campaign against the "rebellious lepers" who are full of ambition and are running a conspiracy against his ministry causing him and his family to suffer so much, etc...you know the drill.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I challenge all of you to address the issues of gross sexual abuse surounding the LC in current times.

As this forum is mostly former members we would not be aware of what is happening currently in the LC and therefore could not comment on it with any accuracy. But if it is anything like the past IMHO sisters/ladies/women are treated like second class citizens.

In this context it should also be remembered (and it has been discussed many times in this forum) that Witness Lee abused and mistreated anybody that disagreed with him - male or female. He was an equal opportunity abuser.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Horribly insulting and discrediting to your case for you to even place these two Charles' into the same paragraph.

Sorry I speak plainly. Also, I only took your frame of logic and applied it to another example so you can see how flawed your logic is concerning what makes a person good. I would never say CHUCK is LIKE CHARLES. Only, your use of anecdotal evidence to defend his published teachings is a bad way of viewing the world. Again, you have not addressed whether or not "Chuck" or you believe in the published materials he has that put women down. I will directly ask you, Do you or do you not believe in the subjection of women to man?

Again, I think the frustration you are expressing here on this forum is cleary you being frustrated with yourself. For all I have done is to quote Chuck and how his preaching set the tone for a women’s abuse. Having a women not speak in coded language like many of you and nit picking at details like you often do, and plainly and unapologetically calling out the abuses many of you have participated in and, as found here on this forum BEGAN WITH WN is probably incredibly hard to deal with. The group of women LC survivors I know all also have had a long journey or recovery and self-realization that has been slow and difficult.

In response to IGZY and alwayslearning

Specifically about Nee, we have this new example of abuse that I cannot wait to read in English. And find it interesting that the last man that even I thought as good WN, also was a sexual deviant making pornography in motel rooms. I mean, you can’t write fiction any better than how the LC history has unfolded. I am confident and God has filled me with his confidence that she is telling the truth. I do not think a woman, who has received higher education and is nearly on her deathbed would have any reason to falsely relive her horrific memoirs. This book will be great and I hope you all except it. I will allow you all to continue nitpicking at the veracity of this book while I will take it as another piece to the puzzle and allow it to help me paint the picture of the LC and its horrors.

As far as delineating the gross sexual abuses found in the LC, I think you need not force a woman to publically humiliate herself. And if you cannot see how women are left shattered and abused by this church than also, we are coming to a dead end here. It seems that truly many of you have a true cognitive inability to except that this church keeps women down and puts them in situations that are horrific and not common outside to the church. A cult expert that meets with our group of survivors has shed light that for the men who leave to break the frame of logic that swept them up is near impossible. And without conscious effort, will never happen. Brothers allowing or not allowing their wives to do simple things, grown men never cooking dinner or changing a diaper, all the while holding eternal damnation over her head is only where it begins. You know where it ends. RAPE, there I said it. Women in the LC are to a shocking degree raped more often than others. Be it by men in the church or caused because they think they are just an object to be used by men, a belief caused by the church’s teachings and style of control and power, it is all the same thing. Now I know many of you will be rape apologists and deny this. It is true. I hope one day God graces you with forgiveness for teaching that women need be less than men.

Make no mistake; no fornicator . . . , no adulterer or sexual pervert, will possess the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9–10

[Cal]

Dear Guest,

It's pretty clear you carry a lot of resentment and anger. It may be justified, but we are not your enemies here. Why would be be running and participating on a forum such as this if we wanted to hide the offenses of the LC? Of course we are open to evidence. Rather than rebuke us for being in denial (how can one be in denial of something one has barely heard of?) why don't you educate us on the facts?

It sounds like you are Asian. Is that where this subjugation you have witnessed happens? We are mostly from America. Besides the actions of Lee's sons and a few isolated incidents, we do not know of sexual abuse in the American LCs. Do you know of any?

Have you been abused yourself? This forum can be anonymous. There is no need for public exposure of identity.

When you speak of RAPE, are you referring to gross rape, or are you referring to husbands who expect their wives to have sex whether the wife feels like it or not, and to generally be at their beckon call?

You must clarify. It does you nor your cause any good to speak generalities and accuse people you don't even know of things you are not certain of.

Like I said, we are not the enemy. Relax, take a breath and tell us some specific facts as calmly as you can muster. We need facts, not arm waving.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Make no mistake; no fornicator . . . , no adulterer or sexual pervert, will possess the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9–10

Be careful sister, what you say, because revilers are on that list too.

Fact 1. I am an Asian American from California.

Fact 2. Rape is rape. No means no. There is no "level" of rape. You're better than that thinking Igzy.

Fact 2. I was raped outside of the church, but felt that it was my fault and there was nothing I could do about it because of the rhetoric of "Women are inferior" and "You were asking for it" told to me as a child. I kept it as a secret for many years and I had no one to talk to.

Fact 3. Not only was I raped, but many of the girls I grew up with in the church were. Some by LC members and some outside of it because of how we were made to feel. Elders in our church in California knew of some of the rapes, and still did literally nothing and told the victims to not talk about it. The men who raped these girls were never reprimanded and were continued to be allowed around women, even their victims.

Fact 4. None of us victims ever talked about it, or told anyone until we all started sharing and it was shocking, even to us how common it was and still no one knew or talked about it.

Fact 5. In a seperate instance to my rapes, at a church function, I was molested by a LC member as a young girl. An elder found out. I was reprimanded for the way I dressed and told "I was asking for it". The male was never even told not to do that again. This is not only my experience, but almost across the board for young women in the church us survivors are finding out the more we talk about it.

Fact 6. The history of sexual abuse, victim blaming and covering up and not talking about things, I thought started with WL. Apparently it started with pornographic materials made by WN.

Fact 7. Until men, in the LC or ex-LC members begin to acknowledge this and furthermore begin to call out these abuses and do something about it, it will continue to happen as women are given no respect amongst the church and on top of that thought to be the only cause of heresies. This is a burden on your shoulders now and you can choose to do something about it or not. God WILL judge you not only on what you do in this life, but what you choose not to do.

There is much more, but if these facts cannot move you to do something, nothing will. I am not trying to sound angry, only simple, plain and direct and am sorry for that miscommunication via text. I also am incredibly sorry that the LC has made it so hard for many ex members to acknowledge reality.

An excellent wife, who can find ? For her worth is far above jewels. Proverbs 31:10

OHIO, using abusive language in this context is not Reviling. These are abusive topics and I will not coat it with flowery language or dumb it down to make it easier for you to read. The feelings you have right now of telling ME to be careful are just you projecting your own guilt onto me. Shame on you. You still, have not answered any question I have asked. I take your silence as a "yes, I do believe that women are inferior and weaker than men". If you didn’t believe in this horrific model of life, you would jump at the opportunity to defend yourself.

[Cal]

Let me see if I can sum up what I'm hearing by reading between the lines:

1. You are a former member of the LC and a victim of rape and sexual abuse.
   
   
2. You were not raped by anyone in the LC, but by someone outside the LC.
   
   
3. You were molested by an older LC man, but were blamed for it yourself. He was not disciplined.
   
   
4. You feel the attitude toward women in the LC causes the men in the LC to have little sympathy for sexually abused women. This in turn causes the abused women further psychological damage.
   
   
5. You have spoken with other women that were molested in the LC.
   
   
6. However, you don't know for sure of any other LC woman who were actually raped by an LC man, other than thinking that LC husbands probably force themselves on their wives because you believe they are probably jerks anyway.
   

Am I on the right track?

It's very serious to accuse people of rape. I've very sorry you experienced the things you did. But that doesn't give you the right to accuse men randomly and generally. You need to be specific. Do you know firsthand of any LC woman or girl who was raped by an LC man?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

OHIO, using abusive language in this context is not Reviling. These are abusive topics and I will not coat it with flowery language or dumb it down to make it easier for you to read. The feelings you have right now of telling ME to be careful are just you projecting your own guilt onto me. Shame on you. You still, have not answered any question I have asked. I take your silence as a "yes, I do believe that women are inferior and weaker than men". If you didn’t believe in this horrific model of life, you would jump at the opportunity to defend yourself.

I am "projecting guilt" on no one, let alone you. It is you who have projected guilt upon every male member, past and present. I found your comments about Chuck Debelek to be insulting and, yes, reviling. That's why I cautioned you. The Apostle Paul says revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revilers are those who abuse verbally and employ calumny, misrepresenting others and bringing malicious charges to harm another's reputation. Apostle Peter instruct us, even if we have been reviled or abused, we should not revile in return. (I Pt. 2.21-23)

This has nothing to do with "flowery language or dumbing it down to make it easier for me to read." You have challenged every reader on this forum and "placed your burdens upon our shoulders." We are neither the police, social workers, prosecutors, nor the judges. You should bring all your grievances to the proper authorities. Where were your parents when you were abused? We are a forum of current and former members. We can sympathize with you and provide an audience, helping any way we can, but that is all we can be expected to do.

And to answer your question, I think most women are smarter, stronger, and superior to me in many ways. I'm afraid of some women, in fact, years ago I was kicked in the shins by two different single sisters. (Perhaps I wasn't paying attention to them.) My father taught me never to hit a woman, even if she hits me first.

IGZY

Sorry I was not clear enough. I know women raped by LC members (which I said before). If I need to be clearer, the word rape as I am using it means a man forced sex upon a young girl. In one case, it happened 100's of times over many years. The parents of the daughter knew it was happening eventually and told her only to not talk about it. RAPE IS RAPE I hope that clears up any miscommunication. Either way, if it was just molestation of young girls, would that change anything? That is a question I really want you to pray about.

Again, you find yourself looking for ways to lessen the weight of what I said. Just because I personally was not raped by a current LC member, the LC's rhetoric is what caused this to happen. I will not go into details but you can accept this or not accept this like I said earlier. This is your burden now, and you can choose to deny and not do anything, or accept that this is happening under the veil of silence in the LC. Again, you can accept that or you cannot accept that.

As for my parents, they are so brainwashed my blood sisters and I have never been able to communicate with them what has happened to us, and have left it in God’s hands for they are beyond repair.

OHIO, yes you are right. I am placing, not projecting the guilt of what this church does to women on every member of the church. As for being kicked in the shins, this must be meant comically right? I really don’t even know what that has to do with anything but you should be proud you didn’t attack those women back, takes a strong man to let go of being kicked in the shins. And you still have not answered my question really. Let me incredibly clear. Do you think women should be submissive to men and put into a marriage in which she is not allowed to make her own choices? And you are right, I never expected you to do anything. I am only telling you truth and making sure you know what happened and you can choose in your own life to do something or not. Men like you will not silence women like me by using the fear of eternal damnation because I talk about this. This is not reviling. This is truth

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

OHIO, yes you are right. I am placing, not projecting the guilt of what this church does to women on every member of the church. As for being kicked in the shins, this must be meant comically right? I really don’t even know what that has to do with anything but you should be proud you didn’t attack those women back, takes a strong man to let go of being kicked in the shins. And you still have not answered my question really. Let me incredibly clear. Do you think women should be submissive to men and put into a marriage in which she is not allowed to make her own choices? And you are right, I never expected you to do anything. I am only telling you truth and making sure you know what happened and you can choose in your own life to do something or not. Men like you will not silence women like me by using the fear of eternal damnation because I talk about this. This is not reviling. This is truth

I'm not joking, I was twice kicked by different sisters many years ago. Personally I am afraid of sisters. Their words are too powerful, and their hands are two fast for me to dodge. I try to treat sisters with complete respect, since if I don't, I must suffer serious consequences. I have never forced my wife to submit to me, and most of the time I submit to her. I have never prevented her from making her own choices, and only request she keeps me informed of what she is doing. And, btw, I always clean up after dinner and wash the dishes.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Again, you find yourself looking for ways to lessen the weight of what I said.
...
Men like you will not silence women like me by using the fear of eternal damnation because I talk about this.

Dear Lady,

I'm going to say this and I'm just going to say it once. So listen up:

One more time of accusing members on this board of acting in bad faith or being against you, one more self-righteous outburst, and you are done.

I shouldn't have to tell you this, but the onus is on you to make your case here. And when you start acting self-righteously superior to everyone here--when this is your first day of posting--the fact is you come off sounding like a nut. And trust me we've had them.

You are angry and you are bold, and boy do you think you are better than everyone else here. We can all see that.

Now show that you also have a brain in your head and offer some courtesy toward the members here. Don't bite the hand that potentially feeds you. Some here might actually want to be on your side. Not that you've won them over with your charming, sparkling personality or anything like that...

But one more time of accusing a member here of acting in bad faith and you are done.

It's your choice. I won't warn you again.

IGZY

This is frankly shocking. I did not expect to come on here and receive the responses I have. I am not trying to sound like I am attacking, and am sorry for that miscommunication. I never directly accused anyone of anything. I did quote Chuck and his published documents as a means to start somewhere concerning the hurtful rhetoric perpetuated in the church. I have said though, that the burden of guilt should be shared by all those who have been in the church and furthered this rhetoric. That includes me, for many years I too spread the messages of hate for women, as a woman! How brainwashed was I!

I have dealt with this guilt and am starting to wash myself clean by trying to actually do something about it, and hope you find that motivation one day too. Self-righteous outburst? That is one way to call a rape victim who is only plainly and simply describing factual events in an attempt to make this a better world. It is funny you say that because many of us victims felt like WE were the ones who were wrong and deserved to be raped, hardly self-righteous! I still am overcoming an incredible amount of shame, self-hate and a fear of men. I do use strong language perhaps, but this is serious stuff and needs to be spoken about directly, especially because we all have been in a culture of silence and ignoring the physical world around us for a long time, some maybe even currently. I also was shocked at how you described rape and molestation and while I am sure you think they are horrible and all the same, it did not come across that way. I truly do not think I am better than anyone. I just want people to acknowledge this, which has been much harder than I ever thought. I realize now that this has done little to help and perhaps only separated us even more, and if that’s the case, I am horribly regretful. I hope there will be a day when we can all share in the happiness and joy of helping even just one girl or boy escape this cult.


Alwayslearning

As far as what to do, that is a great question. I don’t know. Because of the nature of these crimes and the nature of this cult, it is hard for these women and me to come public about it. The shaming and victim blaming, even found on this forum would be gigantic if charges were pressed and may hurt us even more. I am currently in a cult specialist therapy program and working with specialists at Stanford and I hope I myself can bring charges forth, but that will have to be on my own time. This is incredibly hard to deal with and has left many of us victims “paralyzed”. As far as parents in the LC dealing with this, well I think we all know that will never happened, and as I have cited earlier, some parents have known about rapes and they only told the victim to keep quiet and act like it never happened. As far as men, I just hope that they can begin by taking small steps and begin to dismantle this rhetoric and begin to change people’s minds and expose them to Gods true hope for us as humans on Earth, which is clearly not telling women they are inferior and subject to men.

I will leave it at this and I just hope that people can re-read this and see that I only wanted to expose the truth. I felt attacked a little and may have responded a little harshly but I do not regret that. This is a topic that cannot be brushed under the rug. Peace to all and I hope positive changes will begin to happen!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

IGZY

This is frankly shocking. I did not expect to come on here and receive the responses I have.

Dear Lady,

I think I understand what you are saying. I appreciate your pain and that it causes you to write things that might be taken the wrong way. But I simply cannot let you lash out at posters who I know are just trying to help you and are trying to determine what's true. It does not help your case to accuse anyone who questions you that they are trying to hold down the truth. We are trying to get to the truth.

Please continue to post. Just realize this forum has rules about how we address each other. If your story is true you owe it to everyone to give us details and facts in a rational way. If you come in here hyper-defensive against anyone who questions you, then you are not going to make a good impression.

If we question you it doesn't mean we don't believe you. We are just doing due diligence. If we cheered every accuser that came in here with a damning story about the LC we would lose credibility, and besides that it would not be fair to the LC. That doesn't mean you do not have a case. It just means you are going to have to work harder and more intelligently to make it.

I can understand, if you are in pain, coming in here and "throwing up" on everyone. But I tried in several ways to get you to simply give us the facts and you took most of that as an excuse to accuse us of hiding from the truth. That's simply not fair. The things you said to Ohio weren't fair, and the things you said about Chuck D. weren't fair either.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Fact 7. Until men, in the LC or ex-LC members begin to acknowledge this and furthermore begin to call out these abuses and do something about it, it will continue to happen as women are given no respect amongst the church and on top of that thought to be the only cause of heresies. This is a burden on your shoulders now and you can choose to do something about it or not. God WILL judge you not only on what you do in this life, but what you choose not to do.

1. I would like more detail on this point. I am a former LC member, I am a male. I agree that we are judged by God, not only for what we do but also for what we choose not to do. However, how do I "acknowledge this" when prior to your post I was not aware of it?

Also, how do I "call out these abuses"?

Surely I would have to be very clear of the facts before I "called out an abuse" otherwise I could make false accusations which are equally heinous and abusive.

As a former member of the LC that was disturbed by a pattern of abuse which I am aware of I would certainly be willing to "shoulder this burden". But to do so I would have to be certain of the facts.

Dear Lady,

(I'll use Igzy's name for you, to clarify who I'm responding too. If "Lady" doesn't work for you, perhaps you can choose a specific name. For example, even though I'm posting as a guest, I'm using "formermember" for now.)

Please understand that you don't know anyone here. When you come on this forum and start accusing people, it's hard to take. I have people in my immediate family who experienced sexual abuse, including a sibling who was raped. In my extended family there's a woman who was molested by her own father (a deacon in a denomination). I have known two people in my life (both men) who committed suicide due to sexual abuse they suffered as children. So be careful of accusing us of minimizing your pain or not understanding what you have gone through, or being somehow to blame for not doing more in the Local Church to prevent these types of things from happening.

The cases I named above had nothing to do with the LC. During my time in the LC, I did not know of even one case of sexual immorality. I only learned about what happened in Anaheim (not my locality) after I left. So there's really not anything I could have done, and there's not anything I can do now, regarding your own experience.

It's good to hear that you are receiving professional help, and are involved in some kind of support group. I truly hope that you can work through your anger, and be free from your past. But in the meantime, please treat us with the respect and courtesy we deserve as brothers and sisters in Christ. There's no reason to blame us for something we didn't do.

Shattered is my new name as the unregistered guest

I think the problem I have found here are the requirements that accounts of abuse be over nit-picked, proved beyond a doubt to take it and move forward. Again, I never "attacked" Chuck, I only quoted him. Either way, what is important, and all I have been trying to do is add a thread to the tangled web of abuse found in the church, which no one can deny.

So what needs to happen is just men and women found here not stay silent about the women hating rhetoric found in the LC. We as a group need to do something, anything to make this stop. That can be just merely asking questions to current LC members that plant a seed of growth, sending flyers to LC members of information, offering a safe place for members to talk and express themselves, or as far as directly talking to abusers in the church. Any step helps, and I have found in life, headway is often started with baby steps. That is all. Not doing anything is a sin, that’s all I have been saying. You will never be able to prove the veracity of what I have said, and considering the context, is a lot to ask of us victims, but that doesn’t matter. You all have acknowledged that there is a culture of abuse in the church, and that should be all you need to know to do something about it. I hope I come across clear that I only want people to do something, and not knowing what to do is not an excuse to leave it at that. While this forum is a great place to start, it is only that. Peace to all and let the lord fill you with his grace!

[OBW]

I hate to be a little prophetic, but despite a real need to deal with the worst aspects of the LRC, every time that we get into the kinds of things being discussed here, civility begins to disappear. The rhetoric becomes excessively heated, and a bunch of people get hurt or upset, and then some just leave in a huff.

The problems are numerous. They may not be insurmountable, but they are difficult.

Emotions. Those actually hurt have a legitimate need. And they have real pain. But at the same time, it is too easy to interpret things through the lens of pain and presume bad intent on everyone who does not just agree. For example, in this case, any comment concerning roles becomes suspect, even when it is quoted from scripture. A role for a woman that is different from that of a man is presumed to be abusive. (Have we never considered that as much as we — including me — would like to read absolute and total equality into everything, it may not be so? Might it just be our American culture coming through? I'm not saying. But it could be.)

Nay-sayers. Of any kind. Someone makes a blanket statement and someone cries "foul" because they never saw anything like that. Or someone makes a specific statement and someone cries "foul" universally because they never saw anything like that. It goes both ways. (Note that I use "Nay-sayers" loosely. I'm applying it to any disagreement. And when charges are filed, anyone who presumes that there may not be legitimate disagreements with some or all of those charges, even just in gradients of applicability, is asking for disappointment.)

Context. In a time and place removed from the site of the alleged offenses, there is some need of facts. Broad generalizations about others heard through the grapevine, or even just second-hand, are problematic.

Correlations. Not really the right word, but it will do. Evidence of a culture that is backward is not evidence of abuse. It might suggest mental and psychological abuse of a sort. It might provide an environment that attracts the kind of people who would take advantage to do much worse abuse. But it is not evidence of abuse. Men in corporate America, working in companies that do not look the other way at little "indiscretions" in the office place still find sexual harassment that did not come to light until it was a full-blown problem. But most importantly, you can't assert that there is abuse because the culture and teaching of the LRC is male-dominated in one of the more backward ways seen in America today.

Somehow, I wish this could be discussed. Without some immediately heating up the tar and gathering feathers. Last time that happened, we discovered that the story was not what had been presented. I am not making a comment on this story. I'm just noting that jumping on the "get the #*@&^$#" bandwagon does not further the kind of investigation that is needed.

And an investigation is needed. Not because we want gory details. But because we end out with nothing but battered emotions if we continue to rant about every elder as being responsible. And every assembly being the same. And every member still buying into the particularly despicable parts.

And then those who want to just run with it get upset at those who see that there is nothing yet for us to run with. I'm not saying that there is not the kind of abuse (molestation, rape, etc.) that has been charged. But if we have nothing more than has been posted to date, the only place to take the charge would be to certain persons who have not been named. And unless they are elders, they should not be named unless the person actually abused is ready to publicly name them and file charges. That is because the forum can be sued for slander and libel if such charges are made public here and are not proved to be true. And so far it does not look like there will be such proof.

This means that unless there will actually be the personal testimonies of their abuse by specific ones and the improper actions by elders in handling the events, we are just asking for another ugly fight. And we will upset those who actually have been abused. I do not suggest that they have not been. But something more than generalities must be discussed, or alternately it needs to be dropped.

I thought Igzy was borderline ugly in his push-back. But on second look, he was right. And the only place that continuing in the way we are heading leads is to disappointment, frustration, anger, etc. It might feel good for Unregistered (or whatever it is now) to get it off her chest. But the rest is predictable. Like what happens when bulls get let loose in china closets. Nothing but damage.

And we need more damage added onto what has already been perpetrated on these sisters?

I guess we think we do.

Originally Posted by formermember

I read some of the messages you linked to, and I didn't see any hateful rhetoric. It was a very balanced and Biblical description of what the family is supposed to be. I have read similar things from other Christian teachers outside of the LC.

First - Two wrongs do not make a right.

Second - That is ok that we disagree on what God wants from us as humans. I would say that delineating "The weakness of women", saying “Women should never speak up”, “A women’s only happiness should derive from her husbands and kids spirituality”, etc. is not only hateful and wrong, but also a message that limits the potential that God demands us as women to achieve and what he wants from the great bond between a husband and wife. You can think that is a balanced way to read the bible, I cannot change your mind and am not trying to do so. We must remember that this was a message given by the Holy Spirit to an ancient culture and as humans, God demands us to grow, become stronger and allow the Holy Spirit to communicate to us a message that continues to become closer to the true word of God. When reading the bible, you hardly take everything verbatim, so why choose the parts that keep women down?

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Hopefully you have never played sports or been in an accident where your testicles were crushed!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Shattered

God demands us to grow, become stronger and allow the Holy Spirit to communicate to us a message that continues to become closer to the true word of God. When reading the bible, you hardly take everything verbatim, so why choose the parts that keep women down?

Dear Shattered,

You are on to something. I would encourage you to keep going. The Spirit will guide you into all the reality. Some may shrink back at having the word of God speak to them. They prefer the safety of "the interpreted Word". I spent years relying on the interpreted word. But I was in the kingdom of the blind, being led by the blind. Eventually I began to see. Even today it is dim, and faint, but I continue to struggle, and refuse to give up. God will reward those "violent" ones who struggle, Jacob-like, for the blessing.

Not everyone will see what you see. Just be patient, as God has been with you. Be merciful and God will be merciful to you. Receive those whom God has received in Christ Jesus. God will have a way. He is bigger than all of us. Remember the name of Jesus, and He will heal, restore, teach, and guide us, and set us all free.

I just realized IGZY is a moderator and may not post or answer my question regarding clearing up what he meant by "you are done". I realized when showing this to some professionals that the way he phrased it, it could be a physical threat and as a moderator may be able to track me and this is my only way of safely communicating to him. Do not post this but until he answers that question to protect myself I must take this as a physical threat of violence. He didn't say you are done here or posting so that sentence does mean that I am done. Please understand that I only need clarification and want to move this dialogue forward! Peace be with you!

[Cal]

Dear Shattered,

It is clear from your last two (unpublished) posts that this forum is not an appropriate place for you. Although you've been warned, you continue to play the victim and to try to make anyone who doesn't agree with you out to be some kind of attacker, coward or sexual abuse sympathizer. Added to that you continue to deny you've attacked people here when anyone who can read can see you have.

In your latest post you claimed to be concerned that a moderator here might have intended to hurt you physically. That idea, of course, is utterly absurd, and any rational person should have known that. So the fact that you thought it, let alone wrote about it, shows you to be someone who either is out-of-touch with reality or who will shamelessly play the victim at any cost. Neither tendency is welcome here.

Your posts will no longer be approved. Nor will you be allowed to become a full poster.

We are all very sorry that you experienced sexual abuse, if indeed you did. But this forum is also not the appropriate place to work that out. Regardless, we wish you well, and pray the Lord gives you healing in all aspects.

[Ohio]

Could perhaps Shattered's posts and responses be relocated to a special thread all her own?

[Cal]

This thread consists of the posts related to the poster named Shattered--who claimed to have been raped outside the LC and sexually molested within the LC--from another thread. I wished to separate them to avoid confusion, to allow the discussion about the Nee book to continue in the original thread, and to provide some explanation for the action related to this poster and what it says about this forum.

Some might think the action taken regarding this poster was excessive. Others might think that we failed to show Christian charity toward this woman. Others might think we discouraged other confessions about sexual abuse, or even that we've shown ourselves to be no better than LSM in banning a member who displeased us. Let me address those concerns.

1. The decision about this woman had less to do with what she was talking about than the way she chose to present it. We want women who have been abused in the LC to be able to talk about it here safely and with assurance of anonymity. For some reason, this woman decided to present herself in a brazen and abrasive manner, casting accusations at anything or anyone who did not suit her from her very first post, then turning around and denying she did those things.
   
   It seems to me that a person who wanted sympathy and support from a group wouldn't seek to antagonize it from the get-go. Had she come here in a humble, sincere manner, telling her story without accusation toward this board, then sympathy and support would have flowed to her like a river. It's hard for me to believe that she didn't realize that. Instead she choose the antagonistic route. This shows me she was more interested in lashing out than anything else.
   
   
2. Some might say, So what? The Church is supposed to support the broken and oppressed.
   
   Let me say this board is committed to the mission of the Church to support the oppressed and downtrodden.
   
   This board, however, is not a local church. It is more like a public meeting of a church, like a Sunday morning meeting where all are welcome to speak. This woman's behavior was like a visitor coming in, grabbing the microphone from the speaker, seeking to change the subject and make it all about her, castigating anyone as being off-mission who didn't agree with her, and then, when asked to stop these abuses, denying she did any of them.
   
   No church would allow such a thing to continue. Such a person would be taken aside and, in the best situation, the church would attempt to minister to her in some other way that didn't disrupt the public meeting.
   
   The difference is, on this forum there is no "some other way." The public meeting is all there is. And if "speakers" don't follow a certain decorum, the whole thing falls apart. This board simply cannot function with posters who think it's all about them and who seek to antagonize others. Besides that, this board is not equipped to minister adequately to the sexually abused or anyone with serious psychological damage.
   
   
3. Some might think our actions show that we are no better than the LC and LSM. We've banned a person who displeased us, isn't that what they do? What's the difference?
   
   I shouldn't have to say that the difference is we didn't ban anyone while also telling them they can't go on without us. We make no claims of being the unique anything, as LSM and the LC does. Every Christian group has the right to protect its integrity by restricting membership. That is biblical. What's not biblical is claiming that the banned person has no way to go on without you. We make no such claims. There are probably plenty of places that would welcome this lady, assuming she softens her antagonistic attitude, which she refused to do for us.
   
   
4. Lastly, some might fear that we've discouraged other women from telling their stories of sexual abuse in the LC, that we've shown ourselves to be a bunch of unsympathetic males, and what else is new.
   
   This one concerns me most, and I certainly hope it's false. We totally believe in the Church's mission to comfort the broken-hearted. There are just limits to what disruptions we will allow this board or its members to endure. We cannot allow an inmate to try to take over the asylum. But we do and will welcome all stories of LC abuses whose tellers don't seek to bite the hands that try to help them.
   
   Thank you for reading.
   
   Igzy