Hope for all you church kids

Hi,
I've been a lurker on this website for about a year and a half. I check in now and then to see the latest posts and threads. I'm a former church kid. My family joined when I was in 4th grade. We eventually ended up in the heart of the church life, Orange County, CA. I was in as deep as person could possibly be. If "hooked" had a definition, it would be me. I've been out for about a year and a half now, and I couldn't be more thankful to God for showing me the truth and surrounding me with the people I needed to help support me. It wasn't easy, by any means, but I want the church kids out there to know that it is possible, and you will feel so much better once you're out.

The journey started when I met a man who had no interest in the church life whatsoever, but decided to check out our club on campus. He only help coming around because of me and we eventually started talking. As we started dating (which was already frowned upon as he wasn't in the LC), I, a devoted church kid, was doing everything in my power to "bring him in" and "unveil him" from his denominations. However, he is a VERY strong Christian and right off the bat could tell that something was wrong with the church life. Fast forward two years, our relationship is strong, except for our spiritual connection. I wouldn't leave the church life and he wasn't joining. I came to a crossroads, and no matter how he explained the wrongs of the LC, I was too brainwashed to see he was right. It was only by the Lord's mercy that I trusted GOD enough to begin my slow exit from the LC. It was a rough year. I lost my relationship with my parents. I questioned my stance on biblical truths. My relationship with God became almost nonexistent. I didn't know what truth was anymore. The road will be rough, but a year and a half after leaving, my relationship with God is strong, I married the love of my life, and I feel so free. I understand the BIBLE is the only thing we follow.

To former church kids:
1. If you're questioning the church life, don't shut down those questions-- investigate! Find the truth.
2. Remember that sometimes the Lord puts these "negative" and "veiled" people in our lives for a reason.
3. These "evil denominations" aren't "evil" at all. The church I go to now is non-denominational and there's absolutely nothing unbiblical about it. These people love Jesus and want to grow their relationship with God. The claim that denominations are "caught up in the world" is a bold faced lie. **Keep in mind though, that you need to find a home thats right for you, and not everywhere is perfect and nobody is perfect.

Hoping this helps someone out there,
ExChurchKid

[ABrotherinFaith]

1. If you're questioning the church life, don't shut down those questions-- investigate! Find the truth.

This is exactly what the Church disapproves of and openly tells people not to do, warning them that the internet is filled with slander. Someone just sent me a link to the Labor Day Conference in Chicago. The first two messages, especially the first, is an Abridged and edited version of the history of the local church. Interspersed, the speaker speaks about looking online and all the negative things that people have to say and he discourages people from investigating.

To your advice I'd add reading the Bible without footnotes, without the distraction of the ministry. Spend time with the Word.

[Trapped]

ExChurchKid,

Thanks so much for your encouraging post! Any more tips and experiences are welcome and appreciated. Glad you have found yourself in a good place and are doing well.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I was in as deep as person could possibly be. If "hooked" had a definition, it would be me. I've been out for about a year and a half now, and I couldn't be more thankful to God ...

I too was "sold out" for the cause, and would try to steer other Christians to the LC. What did they have to offer me? Nothing. They were in "fallen Christianity", which was full of darkness, full of faults. In the LC we had the "recovered truths" and the "proper ground" which ensured that our excitement (yelling slogans, fist pumping) was actually the Holy Spirit ("reality! reality! reality!") and not just manufactured enthusiasm. As for us, we knew "God sees no iniquity in Israel"; yet by contrast all God could see in "poor, degraded Christianity" were faults upon faults.

Then one day the FTTA trainer told us, "Don't waste your time" with the aged, the poor, the weak and the sick. He continued, don't bother with those who can't repay you in this age; rather go for the "good building material" (college students). I was aghast. I protested. This was nothing like the gospels! They ignored me. So I let it go. . . I was sold out, remember? But looking back, that was the beginning of the end . . . I left 3 years later.

This was when the transition was underway from "door knocking" to "campus work". LC'ers got their eyes trained and calibrated to scout for middle class Caucasian college students. Anyone else, meh.

On a related note, I recently met with one from the LC, who told me that this year's push on campus had a theme: they need "fresh blood for the Body". Later in considering the phrase I remembered that it was Walter Martin the vampire expert who early on warned of the dangers of this group. Coincidence? Maybe not.

[UntoHim]

Hey ExChurchKid!

Please consider registering as a forum member. Simply send an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership. Be sure to include your desired UserName (I have reserved "ExChurchKid" if you want it) We will then shoot you back a return email with a temporary password.
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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Hi,
I've been a lurker on this website for about a year and a half. I check in now and then to see the latest posts and threads. I'm a former church kid... I lost my relationship with my parents. I questioned my stance on biblical truths. My relationship with God became almost nonexistent. I didn't know what truth was anymore. The road will be rough, but a year and a half after leaving, my relationship with God is strong, I married the love of my life, and I feel so free. I understand the BIBLE is the only thing we follow.

Can you expound a little more on why you lost your relationship with your parents and how that might be restored? It seems an unnecessary loss since you are now married.

[UntoHim]

You're right ZNP, the loss of relationship with parents and other close family members is totally unnecessary. Too bad that close, normal relationships outside of the Local Church were discouraged by Witness Lee. He labeled such common and natural relationships "as honey that spoiled the offering". Where he came up with this bizarre and totally unbiblical notion is a mystery to me. I guess it's just one of those things that he invented and used to keep the hearts and minds of his followers fully and completing devoted to himself and his so-called "ministry". Admittedly, it worked pretty darn well for over 50 years.
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[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I guess it's just one of those things that he invented and used to keep the hearts and minds of his followers fully and completing devoted to himself and his so-called "ministry". Admittedly, it worked pretty darn well for over 50 years.

It's still working.

[UntoHim]

Yeah, I was afraid of that.
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

You're right ZNP, the loss of relationship with parents and other close family members is totally unnecessary...
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The funny thing is, I don't understand the draw of these things for people like the blended brothers. What is in it for them to maintain complete allegiance to someone not around any longer and who will not sit at the judgment seat? What is in it for them that prevents them from being able to say "xyz was a little overkill, the Lord has shined some light, having positive family relationships (or whatever) is ok"? Is it just job security? Not being able to handle the notion that they have been wrong (to whatever degree) for a large part of their life? Serving up refried Lee sounds like just an awful job to me. I have seen in some localities when ministry is reproduced and used for certain meetings, they will quietly replace "overkill" portions with ellipses. Why can't we openly and honestly acknowledge those ellipses?

[byHismercy]

This reminds me of the doctrine and writings of Ellen G White who is the 'prophetess' of the Seventh Day Adventist church. There is so much there that was spoken which is now hidden from the average faithful SDA member. In Gods' word, 'hidden things' go hand in hand with 'darkness'.....and I totally agree...how can such things be hidden....what christian can go along with hiding all the error, sin, satanic deception....how can that be justified among those who are supposedly shepherding the flock? It righteously belongs in the light of examination by Gods' word! Let it all come before the body! Let the good be held fast.....let the rest be corrected.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

On a related note, I recently met with one from the LC, who told me that this year's push on campus had a theme: they need "fresh blood for the Body". Later in considering the phrase I remembered that it was Walter Martin the vampire expert who early on warned of the dangers of this group. Coincidence? Maybe not.

Not to distract from some great reading material in this thread:
It was J. Gordon Melton (also a vampire expert, Google it) who was a paid expert witness that supported Lee and TLR in the first lawsuits against Walter Martin and Jack Sparks' books that had labeled Lee a cult leader and TLR as a cult.

Please continue the thread y'all!

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The funny thing is, I don't understand the draw of these things for people like the blended brothers. What is in it for them to maintain complete allegiance to someone not around any longer and who will not sit at the judgment seat? What is in it for them that prevents them from being able to say "xyz was a little overkill, the Lord has shined some light, having positive family relationships (or whatever) is ok"? Is it just job security? Not being able to handle the notion that they have been wrong (to whatever degree) for a large part of their life? Serving up refried Lee sounds like just an awful job to me. I have seen in some localities when ministry is reproduced and used for certain meetings, they will quietly replace "overkill" portions with ellipses. Why can't we openly and honestly acknowledge those ellipses?

Sorry to jump on an old thread. Just picking through to find those that feel relatable. I think a big portion of why there isn't the change you are asking about is generational. What Boomers do you know who are quick to admit they are wrong? They do tend to be really good at sweeping stuff under rugs though. I think we will have to see a generational shift in power before there is even a chance at "change" in the LC. And by that point... if it really is just a money grubbing enterprise then the likelihood of change remains slim.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Sorry to jump on an old thread. Just picking through to find those that feel relatable. I think a big portion of why there isn't the change you are asking about is generational. What Boomers do you know who are quick to admit they are wrong? They do tend to be really good at sweeping stuff under rugs though. I think we will have to see a generational shift in power before there is even a chance at "change" in the LC. And by that point... if it really is just a money grubbing enterprise then the likelihood of change remains slim.

The absolute brothers really believe that when they open their eyes after death that they will see WL standing there with his hand out saying "well done good and faithful servant". They believe this because they have allowed themselves to be deceived by evil spirits. The evil spirits' strategy in LSM and the LC is to direct attention, love, honor, and devotion to the ministry of WL. The degree to which the saints allow themselves to be distracted is the degree to which they are distracted from Jesus, His clear teachings, and the true apostles' teaching found only in the NT. If only the absolute brothers would read the NT 30 minutes for every 10 minutes they read LSM publications their minds will be transformed, their souls will be washed with pure water, and their consciences will begin to function again.

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by HERn

The absolute brothers really believe that when they open their eyes after death that they will see WL standing there with his hand out saying "well done good and faithful servant". They believe this because they have allowed themselves to be deceived by evil spirits. The evil spirits' strategy in LSM and the LC is to direct attention, love, honor, and devotion to the ministry of WL. The degree to which the saints allow themselves to be distracted is the degree to which they are distracted from Jesus, His clear teachings, and the true apostles' teaching found only in the NT. If only the absolute brothers would read the NT 30 minutes for every 10 minutes they read LSM publications their minds will be transformed, their souls will be washed with pure water, and their consciences will begin to function again.

...maybe...

but... I think it's still generational. Think about it. These guys have been in control of this thing for 40 years. What is the motivation for change?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

...maybe...

but... I think it's still generational. Think about it. These guys have been in control of this thing for 40 years. What is the motivation for change?

Yep, you're right. Definitely a generational "Boomer thing" going on. One of my observations is that many of the Boomer old guard got saved in the despicable "denominations" and intuitively know there is truth and life outside of the LC movement, but many of the younger bucks and does who got saved via LC doctrine and practices have no experience outside of the LC, and some might not be saved but just faithful followers of the LSM ministry. These are more likely to teach that there is no way to go on with the Lord Jesus if you leave the LC movement. Just think of the fallout that happens when the dear saints who have been taught this realize they must leave the LC movement. Where can they go? Nowhere, so their faith becomes shipwrecked and they become functional agnostics. Absolute brothers who cause this to happen to the dear saints might want to consider what the Lord Jesus said about stumbling the little ones. After death instead of a handshake from WL they may get the proverbial millstone around the neck and a push into the sea.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by HERn

Just think of the fallout that happens when the dear saints who have been taught this realize they must leave the LC movement. Where can they go? Nowhere, so their faith becomes shipwrecked and they become functional agnostics.

This is assuming of course that they had their own faith to begin with.

From what I've seen many or I'd even say most generational LC members have lived their faith vicariously through parents and through a ministry having never developed an actual personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why do they leave and become functional agnostics? Because they were always agnostic and just haven't had the space to realize it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is assuming of course that they had their own faith to begin with.

From what I've seen many or I'd even say most generational LC members have lived their faith vicariously through parents and through a ministry having never developed an actual personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why do they leave and become functional agnostics? Because they were always agnostic and just haven't had the space to realize it.

True that.

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by HERn

The absolute brothers really believe that when they open their eyes after death that they will see WL standing there with his hand out saying "well done good and faithful servant". They believe this because they have allowed themselves to be deceived by evil spirits. The evil spirits' strategy in LSM and the LC is to direct attention, love, honor, and devotion to the ministry of WL. The degree to which the saints allow themselves to be distracted is the degree to which they are distracted from Jesus, His clear teachings, and the true apostles' teaching found only in the NT. If only the absolute brothers would read the NT 30 minutes for every 10 minutes they read LSM publications their minds will be transformed, their souls will be washed with pure water, and their consciences will begin to function again.

Evil spirits. You are very astute in discerning it. I was there almost a year and the WL name kept coming up. Something was seriously wrong. Once I asked a Serving One working with the youth what determined the material that is used to teach the youth? I was told prayer and fellowship. Then I asked who wrote the material....Witness Lee. I was disgusted at that point. The person could not even see how absurd his answer was. There is a very religious way about the WL books that keep the members from seeing the gospel, the majesty and sovereignty of God.

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is assuming of course that they had their own faith to begin with.

From what I've seen many or I'd even say most generational LC members have lived their faith vicariously through parents and through a ministry having never developed an actual personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why do they leave and become functional agnostics? Because they were always agnostic and just haven't had the space to realize it.

Speaking as one such "functional agnostic" who was raised LC, I resent this line of thinking. While there's little room for doubt that this may be the case for some, I can say wholeheartedly that I 100% believed until I reached my early 20s. At that point things began to wobble for me as I encountered other viewpoints and considered various critiques of the christian faith. But prior to that, and even for another 5 years or so afterward, I very much thought of myself as a believer, prayed, struggled with doubt, prayed more, met with brothers about my struggles, branched out into other christian authors...At that point in my life, I had plenty of space, too. It wasn't that people were forcing me to do anything.

I'm just saying, even if it is the case that some percentage of exLCers never believed on a personal level, assuming that to be the case for all or most of them robs them of their own journey. Which effectively means being robbed of the choice by overbearing parents on the front end, and being robbed of the experience by observers afterward who write you off as having been a phony all along. Because even though I absolutely agree in hindsight that I wasn't given a free choice, in the moment I nevertheless believed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

Speaking as one such "functional agnostic" who was raised LC, I resent this line of thinking. While there's little room for doubt that this may be the case for some, I can say wholeheartedly that I 100% believed until I reached my early 20s..

RO,

I think that the "functional agnostic" ex-church kids who have recently come on board this forum have a powerful voice to describe life inside the LC, and life after. Most of them, presently, don't realise they have a voice, that was stolen in childhood.

I don't have capacity to presently address your points but would just like to repeat a probably un-answerable (sociologically-speaking) question that I raised before:

What percent of ex-LC "church kids" became agnostic?
What percent of Asian versus Caucasian (i.e. how much was cultural, on both sides of the "faith" paradigm [belief v/v unbelief])?
Compared to:
What percent of [mostly Caucasian] ex-Amish kids who become agnostic?
What percent born to Orthodox/Conservative Jews who as adults lose faith in God altogether?

Etc.

Complicated questions with a lot behind them, but voices like yours can help unravel this.

I think faith is an important part of the human psychological make-up, but finding it (or not) on one's own, versus having it essentially rammed down one's throat, and rejecting that experience, is a big part of the paradigm. And cultural influences, which either encourage or permit or forbid questioning, may play larger roles than we realise.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I came to a crossroads, and no matter how he explained the wrongs of the LC, I was too brainwashed to see he was right. It was only by the Lord's mercy that I trusted GOD enough to begin my slow exit from the LC. It was a rough year. I lost my relationship with my parents. I questioned my stance on biblical truths. My relationship with God became almost nonexistent. I didn't know what truth was anymore. The road will be rough, but a year and a half after leaving, my relationship with God is strong, I married the love of my life, and I feel so free. I understand the BIBLE is the only thing we follow.

Some people's faith survives the questioning process and some don't. And some cultures are more "open" and forgiving to questioning long-standing practices an values than others are.

For me it became, How much do I assume, and how much do I critically examine? And, How much is implicit, and how much is explicitly placed, and subject to open scrutiny? To me, "faith" involves allowing one's treasured concepts to be buffeted somewhat by bright air, sunshine, windy days etc. If it survives it's the better for it. If not, too bad. It wasn't worth holding.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is assuming of course that they had their own faith to begin with.

From what I've seen many or I'd even say most generational LC members have lived their faith vicariously through parents and through a ministry having never developed an actual personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why do they leave and become functional agnostics? Because they were always agnostic and just haven't had the space to realize it.

I've been speaking with a so called young LC generational who is "coming out," and is taking a lot of heat for it from her parents and LC friends she grew up with. And it is like they are "Coming Out" as non-believers.

But there are those that grow up in it and become "all in" for it. This person's siblings are like that.

I can't imagine the horror of those coming out as gay, to parents, LC friends, etc. And that happens too. Those are the ones that should be showered with 1st Corinth 13 type Christian love.

As also should be true for those coming out as agnostic or atheist. They all do at least qualify as 'neighbors.'

To each his or her own -- I guess -- but my Christian empathy, that I've developed since leaving the LC, has no problem identifying with them.

[RambleOn]

Aron,

I am also very interested in those sorts of questions. Due to the atmosphere of fear and anxiety present in the LCs, people don't feel liberty to openly discuss doubts, if they have any. The ones who leave generally do so quietly. This benefits the status quo because it is easy to shape the narrative that way. "He left because he was unclear" or "those who leave are slaves to sin" or "they've gone back to the world." It's almost a necessary component to maintaining control of the congregation. The ones who leave are instructive cautionary tales to frighten everyone else to get back into the "diamond lane of the church life."

I'm reminded of the famous "clapping" anecdote from The Gulag Archipelago in which an assembly gave a standing ovation to Stalin for 10 minutes straight, long past the point of absurdity. Finally, in the 11th minute, a manager at a paper company decides he has had enough, and he sits down. Very quickly the rest of the room follows suit. The next day, that manager is arrested and charged with some other crime, with a sentence of 10 years in the gulag. But in the interrogation room, he is told, "never be the first to stop clapping."

I don't mean to make a false equivalency here. Clearly no one (outside of FTT) is being sentenced to labor for insufficient outward shows of conformity. But hearing some of the recent official "Oracle of God" comments from RK about repenting for liking and commenting on social media, or for repenting for things you have agreed with or participated in, I can't help but draw parallels. Instead of threatening 10 years hard labor, they threaten 1000 years of teeth gnashing outside the wedding feast. Same emotional trigger though. The fear of standing out too much keeps people from saying something simple and personal like, "you know dear ones, I love you all and I value the relationships here, so I have no desire to leave, yet I must admit that I am having some definite struggles with some of the teachings here, both in this ministry and in the Bible itself." Just imagine the awkwardness and the tension! The accepatable options one such person would have include 1) quietly praying alone and 2) fellowshipping privately with the brothers. But there's no forum for openly debating or even just exchanging ideas, so there's no model to the saints at large for how real emotional and intellectual maturation occurs. Publicly no one wants to appear disgruntled, so they parrot the lines they are given. It's all received, prepackaged, processed ideas (reminds me of Kraft Singles "Prepared Cheese Product"). We don't need to do anything, just receive. It's like we are holding a Dixie cup under Niagra falls here, when we are under Brother Lee's ministry. Why try to do your own thing when it's all been done for you. And if you ask too many questions, it must be because you're ambitious. So don't be ambitious, don't try to do too much, or anything really, just abide in the vine, allow your edges to be worn down so you are good building material, nothing natural does the body life allow, deny the self, Satan dwells in your flesh, do not trust yourself, follow the sense of life...

And the responses from saints to those who have spoken out, it's striking how they all follow the same habits of argumentation. Ad hominem attacks ("she's a wounded sister...she has been harboring bitterness and offenses...overly emotional...mentally unstable...") None of these are actual arguments; they simply allow you to ignore the issues by discrediting the messenger. Like, let's assume all of the above is true, does that mean Daystar didn't happen? Or that phony false flag rebellions weren't concocted to justify excommunicating disloyal voices? But rank and file "saints" just ignore all that and stick to the below the belt irrelevant personal attacks. Hard to respect people who do this so readily. Then there's the classic term "opposer", which is so weak and also creepy Orwellian sounding. Everyone is an opposer to something right? Christians oppose Satan, right? So that's a meaningless term without context. But no one wants to be included in the smear, so don't do anything which might be perceived as opposer-esque. I remember growing up as a "church kid" (hate this cutesy term the more I think about it too) we used to joke about how if you miss one meeting that's understandable, if you miss two you're a backslider, and if you miss three in a row you're an opposer. Point is it's a term that is so embedded in "recovery" culture that children can make joking ironic references to it. So to hear people use it to refer to people who click "like" on a public post is so gross to me. It just demonstrates an infantile, unnuanced worldview. Quick, get thee to the semi annual so you can be told how to think about this new threat to the Lord's unique move upon the Earth, and then quietly apply dour, passive aggressive social pressure to the saints in your locality to make sure they aren't spreading poison.

The only time "the" "brothers" even acknowledge dissent is when it serves their purpose. Just like the only time they reference any other Christian institution is when they twist their arm into running a cover story called "We Were Wrong." Now suddenly this is a worthwhile publication and all the saints should avail themselves of its riches too. I mean don't get me wrong, there's still just the one trumpet in the Lord's army, but Hank Hanegraff and Gretchen whoever are totally right about this one thing and we are going to make an ostentatious show about it so the saints feel validated by the very same people we usually say have nothing to offer. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. It's so self serving and ridiculous, and it's the same dynamic with this sudden "burden" to address rebellion and Miriam in the semi annual. It seems we are having more trouble than usual controlling how people talk to each other online. Let's name drop all the dead people opposers might be reading about from 40 years ago, but keep it vague and ominous sounding so nobody asks too many questions. And even sort of imply that the reason they are dead might have to do with the fact they "touched the delegated authority." Also make sure that they know God knows their Twitter password and can read all their tweets, and liking a post under a pseudonym is wicked too, so don't think you're fooling anyone. You will stand before the judgment seat with your browsing history in full view. So scary oOoOoO.

Anyway, so sorry for the tangents. I think you're right that it's practically impossible to say what percentage of church kiddos end up in various categories.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

I am also very interested in those sorts of questions. Due to the atmosphere of fear and anxiety present in the LCs, people don't feel liberty to openly discuss doubts, if they have any.

That was some really good sarcasm, you have a gift for writing. Did you attend FTTA? If so did you get invited to the end of the term spaghetti dinner? How was it?

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by HERn

That was some really good sarcasm, you have a gift for writing. Did you attend FTTA? If so did you get invited to the end of the term spaghetti dinner? How was it?

Thank you! I was worried I might have laid it on too thick.

I didn't end up going to the FTT, so no invite to the party.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

And the responses from saints to those who have spoken out, it's striking how they all follow the same habits of argumentation. Ad hominem attacks ("she's a wounded sister...she has been harboring bitterness and offenses...overly emotional...mentally unstable...") None of these are actual arguments; they simply allow you to ignore the issues by discrediting the messenger.

Ramble On, is there a site where I can see LSM's Ad hominem responses to the Casteel letter?

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ramble On, is there a site where I can see LSM's Ad hominem responses to the Casteel letter?

To clarify, this is just personal conversations I've had with people, as opposed to anything official from LSM. There have been a few who have tried to be "helpful" on the Facebook thread, who clearly didn't even read the letter and just started spouting ministry snippets and cliches. I'll grant you, that's not an ad hominem per se, but it implies they think the problem is with Jo rather than with anything else.

But I've spoken with a handful of different LCers about this, as well as with exLCers who have done the same, and it's just interesting that somehow they've all found a way to use very similar wording to describe her. You will just have to take my word for it, anecdotally. Or try it yourself if you know any who are still "going on" in the LCs. She's not just wrong, she's "wounded", for instance. I've heard several people make reference to her mental health, despite not knowing her very well, and not being mental health professionals. Seems irrelevant and inappropriate to do this. I've heard several people make inferences about her marriage, saying things like "her husband isn't even really on board but he's just going along with it to be supportive." Essentially this controversy is stemming from a negative person who is talking about negative things, rather than from actual wrongs that were committed by important brothers. Shooting the messenger is easier than actually addressing uncomfortable truths.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

To clarify, this is just personal conversations I've had with people, as opposed to anything official from LSM. There have been a few who have tried to be "helpful" on the Facebook thread, who clearly didn't even read the letter and just started spouting ministry snippets and cliches. I'll grant you, that's not an ad hominem per se, but it implies they think the problem is with Jo rather than with anything else.

But I've spoken with a handful of different LCers about this, as well as with exLCers who have done the same, and it's just interesting that somehow they've all found a way to use very similar wording to describe her. You will just have to take my word for it, anecdotally. Or try it yourself if you know any who are still "going on" in the LCs. She's not just wrong, she's "wounded", for instance. I've heard several people make reference to her mental health, despite not knowing her very well, and not being mental health professionals. Seems irrelevant and inappropriate to do this. I've heard several people make inferences about her marriage, saying things like "her husband isn't even really on board but he's just going along with it to be supportive." Essentially this controversy is stemming from a negative person who is talking about negative things, rather than from actual wrongs that were committed by important brothers. Shooting the messenger is easier than actually addressing uncomfortable truths.

Thanks, RambleOn.

For decades I read about "storms" coming against the Recovery as persecution coming from God's enemy. These stories went back to mainland China. Then I stepped away, found and read Ingalls' account Speaking The Truth In Love. Having met John, hearing him minister, and knowing his godly character, it just made no sense that he would orchestrate a global conspiracy. Max Rapoport perhaps, but John never. But, within the information vacuum of the LC, bombarded by ministry spin for years, I accepted Lee's version of events. I thought WL was an upright, godly man. Then I discovered who WL really was. For Lee to throw numerous godly men under the bus, just to protect his degenerate sons, explained everything to me. I then questioned every story I heard about every "storm."

What they are now doing to the Casteels is nothing new. This is just what they do. They have decades of perfecting their spin. I only hope and pray that the family and friends of the Casteels can also see thru these lies. The public condemnation by Ron Kangas et. al. at the semi-annual "Feast" only serves to dissuade future "dissidents." How dare these Casteels express their views! By shamelessly smearing the Casteels, and publicly destroying their reputations, they are merely fortifying the concrete reinforced strongholds encasing other LC faithful members.

Did not the Pharisees of old grip the Jews with the same fear? Consider the parents of the man born blind who received his sight from Jesus. (John 9) The Pharisees dragged them in to force them to deny the healing of their son by Jesus. The Jews had already threatened to "quarantine," to throw Jesus believers out of the Synagogue. The parents, scared for their lives, were given wisdom from God, "ask him, he is of age." Then the healed man gave some of the most classic responses in history, "I told you already, do you also want to become his disciples?" Incredible! You could just hear the Spirit of God shaming the Jews in this newborn child of God as he continued to speak. "You were wholly born in sins, and you are teaching us?" And they cast him out.

I love this story. It's being played out again right before our eyes!

[byHismercy]

I listened to Ron Kangas skewer Jo and really, his attack was directed at women in general. Aside from having to collect my lower jaw from the floor every couple of minutes my immediate takeaway was the feeling that he went too far, even for the loyal and dedicated local churchers.

Really, he could have just danced around in circles hollering, ''Look at me! Look at us! We are the cultist cult you can find! If you like freaky cults, you will love the local church!!!!''

I mean, any level headed brother or sister in Christ will have to be a little bit unnerved by his audatious hate speech. He was this close to praying for the Lord to open up the gates of hell and swallow Jo into the pit. It was the least Christian display I have ever heard. But that being said, I honestly believe this has to go a long way to opening the saints eyes to what they have committed themselves too. This is my prayer. That many would be woken up by RKs vitriol. That the Lord Jesus would use this to shine into their hearts and human conscious' and set them completely free from this madness called the lords recovery.

If I could speak to Ron directly I would ask him how he managed to read Jos' heart, how he obtained his intimate knowledge of her 'rebellion'. Shocking how he claimed the authority which belongs to Christ for himself. For the local church leaders. He misconstrues the Casteels' rebuke of the LC operation as rebellion against Christ Himself. I want to know, Ron, are you now equating yourself with the Holy Spirit?? You presume to know the intents of the Casteels' hearts towards God!?

Absolutely stunning. Absolutely disgusting. Shame on him.

[least]

byHismercy wrote: -
"He(RK) misconstrues the Casteels' rebuke of the LC operation as rebellion against Christ Himself."
Haha ... that's correct.

-

[Melo]

I was gonna make this a thread of it's own but I'm not sure how to do that, anyways I made a transcript of Ron Kangas' speaking because I want to make sure people read it and know exactly how Ron Kangas feels about women and those who speak out against wrongdoing.

[start of transcript] “…So then Lord confounded the language and scattered them and then stopped dealing directly with the entire human race but called Abraham the father of the called race.

B: although Satan rebelled against God's authority and although man violates his authority by rebelling against Him, God will not let this rebellion continue when I just read it, I read it in principle now I will read it again, addressing the rebellion taking place right now. God will not let this rebellion continue. a deputy authority we will see does not deal directly with rebellion. We'll see the cases and numbers. Moses did not wield his authority and smashed those who revile him, rather he and Aaron fell on their face before the Lord. They deferred everything to God and we will take the same way and we will see not just at the end of this age not just in the Millennial Kingdom we will see it, I believe, in the near future we will see and we will learn that God will not let this rebellion continue. We refer everything to Him, we back off and give ground to Him to do whatever He wants if He wants the ground to open up and swallow some people and they go alive into Sheol He has the perfect right and the authority to do it. if a female takes the lead to rebel and she becomes leprous, as a governmental dealing we have nothing to say about it. This is God's direct response to rebellion. He will establish His kingdom on the earth. We're not going to try to escape to heaven we're praying your will be done on earth; your kingdom come to the earth. The center of dispute in this universe relates to who has authority we must contend with Satan by asserting that authority is with God. We will assert this. We humble ourselves under it. We stand with it. We tell the enemy we assert the authority of God in this country right here and right now we need to set ourselves to submit to God's authority and uphold God's authority.

Then point D should be written on us and scribed on us: the sin of rebellion is more serious than any other kind of sin because the sin of rebellion is the principle of Satan in action. This is defying authority, refusing rule, rebelling against God's authority in various ways, so it's more serious. There are other sins that are gross sins, their most serious. This is the sin. This is the origin of sin, this is Satan operating again in a human being, whether he or she realizes it or not, is one with him and cooperating with him.

Three. Numbers 12 and 16 of Numbers speak of rebellion against God's delegated authority. A: In speaking against Moses, Miriam and Aaron were speaking against the deputy authority of God. I want to read part of this from Numbers 12: “…And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cush*te woman whom he had married for he had married a Cush*te woman”. There's no sign God was troubled by this, but a spirit of rebellion delights in either real or perceived failures of a deputy authority; they delight in this like Ham when he saw the condition of Noah his father and talked about it. There was reviling, rebelling. The other brothers took a covering and walked backwards and covered. So what will you do when there is a real mistake or a perceived mistake will you go online and talk? Will you tweet all over the earth? Will you post it on your Facebook? Will you participate by liking? All of this is observed, all of this is noted by God Himself. Or will you be Noah’s other sons. We will not talk. We will not look. We will cover. They got the blessing; the other got the curse. And they said, “Has Jehovah spoken only through Moses? Has he not also spoken through us? And Jehovah heard it. He hears every such word. He's aware of every such text, tweet, email, anonymous posting. You're dealing with God here.

Verse five, “Then Jehovah came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam”. Verse eight, the second part, “Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant against Moses? I speak to him face by face you're both older than he in the family I chose him. I don't speak to him in dreams, I speak face to face. Why were you not afraid to speak against him? Now you will realize when you speak against him you speak against Me. And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against them and he departed so let me read the rest of this portion then I'll say something else. God had appointed Moses to be His deputy authority: His representative authority on earth. The authority that Moses represented was the authority of God. According to God's governmental administration, Miriam and Aaron should have submitted themselves to Moses but they rebelled neither Aaron nor Miriam knew authority, instead they fostered a rebellious heart, they fostered it, they nourished it, they strengthened it. The word of rebellion ascended upward, the words of rebellion were ascended upward and were heard by God. And there's a certain verb that describes this kind of speaking: revile. Reviling. When brother Nee expounds this he uses this word reviling and he points out that one of the strongest manifestations of rebellion is words. Words. Because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Here we have the words of rebellion and at this junction I read to you from Matthew chapter 12:34-37, “Offspring of vipers, how can you being evil speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good things and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil things and I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment, for by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned”.

And here he said idle words, wasted words, empty words. How much more severe will be the judgment on reviling words, rebellious words? And now in this age with social media, with all kinds of ways to express – whether in darkness or in light, whether identifying yourself or hiding – every reviling word now online, now in a text, now in a tweet, now in an email, every word is recorded. Maybe no one knows the identity: God knows. And when we appear before the son of man if we have not responded to God's mercy and giving us time to repent of every word, everything we said, everything we agreed, with everything we participated in, He will say I gave you a lot of time.

He gave Max Rapoport forty years (should be 4 years?); He gave John Ingalls twenty-nine years. They didn't repent. And we're still breathing. If the light comes intensely on anyone that's God's mercy to rescue you, to deliver you, and then you will really apply the water for purification; you really will cherish it. Lord just cleanse me from all this defilement!

Small A: When Miriam and Aaron offended Moses, they offended God in Moses. Therefore God became angry. Once a person touches delegated authority he touches God in that delegated authority. To offend the delegated authority is to defend God. Now I need to say something about Miriam because God did and because brother Lee did. Miriam's becoming leprous was God's governmental dealing. Okay why? Why does she become leprous and Aaron didn't? Why? I read note under verse 10. Miriam's becoming leprous was God's governmental dealing. God punished Miriam but not Aaron because it is likely that Miriam took the lead and was the instigator in this rebellion. Moreover, because rebellion is particularly unseemly for a female, God punished Miriam to warn and alarm all the females among the children of Israel so that they would not follow Miriam. We have suffered from Miriam's a number of times in at least four ways, some claiming authority for themselves because they're married to a co-worker or to an elder, so they crown themselves, “Whoa you're a co-worker now, so am I! We're a team!”. Then mistakenly the husband may make a big mistake of fostering that, even exalting her saying, “Listen to her! She knows how to pray with authority. She knows how to pray spiritual warfare”. Let me tell you something: those who really know how to pray this way simply pray this way. They don't boast about it. They don't talk about it.

Then females usurping authority, females claiming to be the spiritual head over their husbands, this has happened. The things are upside down, the husband gives in. Then even taking the lead to rebel. In 1974 the church in Anaheim was established and a certain man, he's with the Lord now, Max Rappaport, he wanted there to be leading sisters. Brother Lee didn't agree, but he appointed three anyway including his wife and they and the women who followed them caused some of the most painful and traumatic suffering we've ever experienced. Though eventually brother Lee said this is a cancer they rejected brother Lee’s diagnosis and the Lord cut the cancer out of the body. I asked the Lord to cover this dear person. I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her. It's very serious for this kind of reviling.

Then we go on to B: The rebellion recorded in Chapter 16 was a corporate rebellion. The rebellion in this chapter was a widespread universal rebellion among God's people. Numbers 16:3,9 and 10 show that the root of this rebellion was ambition, the struggle for power, and for a higher position. Ambition undermines God's plan and damages his people. Throughout the centuries many problems among Christians have been caused by ambition. Although Moses was humble in falling on his face he did not give up his God-given position as God's deputy authority.

Notice He did not directly confront Moses and Miriam. and He said “Don't you know who I am?” I have authority, you woman are rebellious, I will smash you, I will rebuke you, I will break you. If a brother thinks he's representing authority of God when he does that, he's seriously Satan, seriously wrong. And Moses didn't defy all of these leading ones who rebelled, he fell on his face before God. That's what a representative of God does. He humbles himself before God and then he represents God by saying gather together tomorrow then we'll see what God will do. And the earth opened up and swallowed them. That is not going to happen physically today but as soon as someone rebels, they open up the gates of Hades. They open up death; they enter into the realm of death. Those who represent God will fall on their face before God, will humble themselves, and let God be God. And then he did; he acted. Then fire came and consumed 250 others, but it didn't stop the spread of the rebellion, it became throughout the whole people. They accused Moses of killing them so there needed to be a vindication that we'll see shortly.

A: Moses did not fight back, rather he brought the rebels and the ones against whom they rebelled to God. We don't fight back. The Lord Jesus we’re told in 1st Peter chapter 2 verse 23 when he was reviled, he did not revile in return. When he was suffering he didn't threaten, but he kept on committing all to God who judges rightly. The Lord covered me several years ago. A brother tried to take a certain kind of action against another co-worker and me and the reviling was there. By the Lord's grace as soon as I heard about it I prayed this way, “Lord, I give this to you. I will not touch it. I will not defend. I give this to you. You handle it according to your authority.” And he did.

B: As God's deputy or delegated authority, Moses referred this case to God as the highest authority for his speaking, exposing, and judging. Speaking, exposing, and judging. We know the enemy’s behind this; our war is with him, but don't let the enemy play with your natural affection for anyone. You need to stand with God's authority to stand with those who represent God's authority to stand with the church and let God speak, expose, and judge as He wills and we will take the lead. I really mean that spiritually speaking to prostrate ourselves before the Lord. They are rebelling against you, Lord. We can withstand. They can see this or that about us personally, that's not the issue. They're rebelling against you, they’re throwing off your rule. Exercise Your righteous judgment in Your way and in Your time. Not for us, for yourself, for your name.

Little C: In the struggle for power the only one who can judge and expose the real situation is God Himself” [end of transcript]

[aron]

Originally Posted by RK

He gave Max Rapoport forty years; He gave John Ingalls twenty-nine years. They didn't repent. And we're still breathing.

Witness Lee's been dead 22 years, and Stephen Kaung is still breathing. And what does that mean? Probably nothing. Because God doesn't think that way. Sorry if you do.

Jo Casteel noted this at some point: the LSM says that when something happens to someone else, it's "God's governmental dealing", but when it happens to them it's "Satan's attack". But judgment is for all, and God is no respecter of persons. If God were, Paul would have stood down in Antioch. But he didn't. So Jo Casteel didn't stand down. She saw something and spoke out. There are unethical recruiting practices going on. There is abuse. There are cover-ups.

Originally Posted by RK

If the light comes intensely on anyone that's God's mercy to rescue you, to deliver you, and then you will really apply the water for purification; you really will cherish it. Lord just cleanse me from all this defilement!

I for one hope that "the light comes intensely" for the Blendeds and the DCP. There's still time.

And so, probably, for us all. I participated, too. Surely I need purification. Amen. May we all be under the shining. God is good.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Melo - RK Quote

I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her. It's very serious for this kind of reviling.

I don't care what he says. His wife rules the roost. I think he's just doing payback. He's taking shots at Susan just to get her back for all the bold and outspoken shots she's taken at him. At home, back in RK's virile days, I've seen it -- when she says jump, he asks how high on the way up.

And what an awful and lowdown way to speak about women, much less his wife, for God's sake. He's either taking the apostle Paul way too seriously, or there's other hidden misogynistic animosity bubbling up in his speaking.

Pooey on RK, and his DEPUTY AUTHORITY. Shame, shame, shame, for this propaganda intend to control peoples minds, and fill them with hateful attitudes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't care what he says. His wife rules the roost. I think he's just doing payback. He's taking shots at Susan just to get her back for all the bold and outspoken shots she's taken at him. At home, back in RK's virile days, I've seen it -- when she says jump, he asks how high on the way up.

And what an awful and lowdown way to speak about women, much less his wife, for God's sake. He's either taking the apostle Paul way too seriously, or there's other hidden misogynistic animosity bubbling up in his speaking.

Pooey on RK, and his DEPUTY AUTHORITY. Shame, shame, shame, for this propaganda intend to control peoples minds, and fill them with hateful attitudes.

IIRC Susan passed away, and this is Ron's new wife.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

IIRC Susan passed away, and this is Ron's new wife.

From what RK said I pity her. Actually I pity all that hook their wagon to RK.

Where/when was that shared and does anyone have the audio link to the transcript? I also heard the church in anaheim had an emergency meeting over the casteel letter and saints were stumbled. Does anyone know the content of that time and if there are any audio recordings available?

[UntoHim]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdmv77z2ht...02019.mp3?dl=0

This is the reference for the special meeting held for the FTT graduates after the Summer Training.
-

[Terry]

Originally Posted by awareness

Pooey on RK, and his DEPUTY AUTHORITY. Shame, shame, shame, for this propaganda intend to control peoples minds, and fill them with hateful attitudes.

I'm disgusted the manner Ron spoke of his wife. But you know that's par for the course. I can't recall a message Ron didn't speak a reviling word towards sisters in general. I can only speculate there's something fermenting from decades ago that's caused his manner of speech.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

I'm disgusted the manner Ron spoke of his wife. But you know that's par for the course. I can't recall a message Ron didn't speak a reviling word towards sisters in general. I can only speculate there's something fermenting from decades ago that's caused his manner of speech.

All of us in Detroit wondered why his wife treated him so badly. I think RK has revealed why.

I don't think his wife turned him off to women. I think his misogynous attitudes turned his wife off to him.

His present wife must suffer from some sort of Christian Stockholm Syndrome.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdmv77z2ht...02019.mp3?dl=0

This is the reference for the special meeting held for the FTT graduates after the Summer Training.
-

Wow. Just wow. I'm amazed on how RK would do that. I thought he was a decent human being. Sad sad sad. This truly horrified me. Apperantly I was there during the graduation and I didn't know about this incident

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. Just wow. I'm amazed on how RK would do that. I thought he was a decent human being. Sad sad sad. This truly horrified me. Apperantly I was there during the graduation and I didn't know about this incident

Minoru says at around 15:00: "The fact that it is not perfect does not negate the fact that this is the 'Lord's Recovery."

Minoru is full of hot air. Let me say this plainly:

THE IDEA OF THE LORD'S RECOVERY IS NOT A NOTION SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE. IT IS A MAN-MADE IDEA. IT HAS NO MEANING TO GOD. THIS IS THEIR ERROR, PRESUMING TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL, EVEN CLAIMING TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL, WHEN THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL BASIS FOR DOING SO. THIS IS DELUSION. THIS IS THE LIE. IT IS A HOAX AND A BOONDOGGLE. IT DOES NOT OBLIGATE ANYONE TO HONOR IT OR RESPECT IT. DO NOT BE SWAYED BY IT. STICK TO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, AND IT NEVER MENTIONS ANYTHING ABOUT ANY SPECIAL END TIMES 'MOVE' LIKE THE RECOVERY. IT JUST IS NOT BIBLICAL. PERIOD.

God has always been moving to build his Church and complete his plan. He doesn't need some special "Recovery" to do so. All that notion does is give some nutty group like the LR a way to claim to be IT to the exclusion of all others. It's the subtly of Satan. Don't be fooled.

MINORU'S WORDS ARE ABSOLUTELY DEVOID OF MEANING.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Minoru says at around 15:00: "The fact that it is not perfect does not negate the fact that this is the 'Lord's Recovery."

Minoru is full of hot air. Let me say this plainly:

THE IDEA OF THE LORD'S RECOVERY IS NOT A NOTION SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE. IT IS A MAN-MADE IDEA. IT HAS NO MEANING TO GOD. THIS IS THEIR ERROR, PRESUMING TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL, EVEN CLAIMING TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL, WHEN THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL BASIS FOR DOING SO. THIS IS DELUSION. THIS IS THE LIE. IT IS A HOAX AND A BOONDOGGLE. IT DOES NOT OBLIGATE ANYONE TO HONOR IT OR RESPECT IT. DO NOT BE SWAYED BY IT. STICK TO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, AND IT NEVER MENTIONS ANYTHING ABOUT ANY SPECIAL END TIMES 'MOVE' LIKE THE RECOVERY. IT JUST IS NOT BIBLICAL. PERIOD.

God has always been moving to build his Church and complete his plan. He doesn't need some special "Recovery" to do so. All that notion does is give some nutty group like the LR a way to claim to be IT to the exclusion of all others. It's the subtly of Satan. Don't be fooled.

MINORU'S WORDS ARE ABSOLUTELY DEVOID OF MEANING.

Totally agree with this.

Years ago I studied the Exclusive Brethren history as part of my Exit Strategy. Imagine my shock learning that they also claim the exact same special status for their group, just change all the names.

They have all the exact claims: one church one city, ground of oneness, deputy authority, MOTA, one move of God, His unique recovery, etc. etc.

Nee learned this all from them. He passed it on to Lee. Same scam. Same claims. Different terminology.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nee learned this all from them. He passed it on to Lee. Same scam. Same claims. Different terminology.

The problem is the notion that there has to be one GROUP that is the RIGHT one, because you have to know where to go.

But God just doesn't operate that way. He is far too wise to set up such a system, because it would quickly fall under human control.

Think about it. A small set of leaders are given control of "God's one true move." What happens if they go bad? Well, in one sense they cannot "go bad," because since they are in control of the move, they are the move, they define it. But we all know humans can go bad. So surely then God can leave the move. But how do you know when that happens? Well, your guess is as good as anyone's!

It's all just crazy. Yet, if you take the bait of the idea of "the one true move," then the hook of the consequences has you. And you find yourself sitting in a meeting with some tired windbag like Minoru Chen or Ron Kangas droning on about "The Lord's Recovery" and how you can't leave because this is it, so shut up and take your medicine.

The subtly of Satan. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE IT. Don't take the bait.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The problem is the notion that there has to be one GROUP that is the RIGHT one, because you have to know where to go.

But God just doesn't operate that way. He is far too wise to set up such a system, because it would quickly fall under human control.

Think about it. A small set of leaders are given control of "God's one true move." What happens if they go bad? Well, in one sense they cannot "go bad," because since they are in control of the move, they are the move, they define it. But we all know humans can go bad. So surely then God can leave the move. But how do you know when that happens? Well, your guess is as good as anyone's!

It's all just crazy. Yet, if you take the bait of the idea of "the one true move," then the hook of the consequences has you. And you find yourself sitting in a meeting with some tired windbag like Minoru Chen or Ron Kangas droning on about "The Lord's Recovery" and how you can't leave because this is it, so shut up and take your medicine.

The subtly of Satan. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE IT. Don't take the bait.

But some people want, need, someone to do their thinking for them ... someone to tell them what they need to do, and how to live. In the Nee/Lee movement that's what happens.

And, "brother, get out of your mind," lends right into it. Your own thinking only gets in the way of the master thinker ... which due to untold reasons -- mental shortcomings of some kind surely, due maybe to being young and ignorant, and in the need of a replacement father figure -- they 'feel' they need.

After all, Lee and Co. does over a purpose driven life : their purpose, of course, not your own. Check you mind at the door ... or completely in the training's ; just let it become a tape recorder ... let yourself be blended with Lee ... a Leebot ... like the blended brothers

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

After all, Lee and Co. does over a purpose driven life : their purpose, of course, not your own. Check you mind at the door ... or completely in the training's ; just let it become a tape recorder ... let yourself be blended with Lee ... a Leebot ... like the blended brothers

Well, some people are happy in the LR. I mean, they genuinely feel that's where they Lord wants them. That's their prerogative.

The problem comes in when you are NOT happy, when there is a problem, and someone OTHER than God starts telling you what you can and cannot do. It's one thing to give concerned advice, it's another to threaten someone. Love does not threaten. Judgment is God's purview, not ours. For someone to say that "If you leave our group you are disobeying God," is beyond the pale. It's one of those things you JUST DO NOT DO.

I don't know how to make it more plain. As I've said before the whole MOTA/Recovery/LocalGround paradigm is a WHOPPER. A lie so big that it defies reason.

You just have to snap out of it. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kj...dFPbZxsCTPIXAm

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

...The problem comes in when you are NOT happy, when there is a problem, and someone OTHER than God starts telling you what you can and cannot do...

Adding to this thought, you cannot tell the truth. If you're NOT happy about what's going on...you have to lie. "What's wrong sister?" "Oh nothing...I'm a little tired..." (tired of lying)"...the meeting was so rich..."

"Wasn't that a wonderful message?"
"Yes...brother...it was great..." (I've heard it a thousand times...why not one more? It was dead then. It's dead now.)

If you tell the truth, there can be devastating retribution. To me this is as bad, if not worse, than someone telling you what you can and cannot do.

Nell

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by HERn

True that.

Yes! When guided away from wrestling with faith, how could faith remain anything but superficial? When shielded like children, how can believers attain maturity?


In contrast:

And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

Let's go climb a tree and play in the mud!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by eDh22

Yes! When guided away from wrestling with faith, how could faith remain anything but superficial? When shielded like children, how can believers attain maturity?


In contrast:

And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

Let's go climb a tree and play in the mud!

Hi eDh22,

I don't understand. Did I offend you? I'm sorry if I did.

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi eDh22,

I don't understand. Did I offend you? I'm sorry if I did.

Not all I! I was heartily agreeing with you and my message was meant to second your post. Thank you so very much for all your ministering on this board.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by eDh22

Not all I! I was heartily agreeing with you and my message was meant to second your post. Thank you so very much for all your ministering on this board.

Whew! OK, thanks!