How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[InChristAlone]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am new to this forum. So I do not know if I should start a new thread or there is a similar topic where my problem has been discussed.

I am not an active member of the “Local Church” but my wife is. Generally, I do not consider myself a member of this organization. However I still attend the Lord's table meetings with my wife. But the more I attend the meetings, the more I am convinced that it's a destructive organization that deceives sincere and good-hearted people, leading them away from Christ. So my concern is how people like me (husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters, etc.) can help their relatives to know the truth about this organization?

If I start telling my wife all the bad things I have read about WN, WN, and the Local Church, she will not buy that. She is totally blinded. There is no way I can shake her trust in the cult and its idols. On the other hand, suppose she knows the truth – what then? It may not only hurt but also ruin her. I am an empty vessel, neither religious, nor spiritual. I believe in Christ, but I can’t give my wife what she gets in her sect. What should I do?

In the “Lord’s Recovery” they would say, “Pray”. Of course, I will. But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy, and love in Christ again?

Thank you.

Blessings,
InChristAlone

[james73]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am new to this forum. So I do not know if I should start a new thread or there is a similar topic where my problem has been discussed.

I am not an active member of the “Local Church” but my wife is. Generally, I do not consider myself a member of this organization. However I still attend the Lord's table meetings with my wife. But the more I attend the meetings, the more I am convinced that it's a destructive organization that deceives sincere and good-hearted people, leading them away from Christ. So my concern is how people like me (husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters, etc.) can help their relatives to know the truth about this organization?

If I start telling my wife all the bad things I have read about WN, WN, and the Local Church, she will not buy that. She is totally blinded. There is no way I can shake her trust in the cult and its idols. On the other hand, suppose she knows the truth – what then? It may not only hurt but also ruin her. I am an empty vessel, neither religious, nor spiritual. I believe in Christ, but I can’t give my wife what she gets in her sect. What should I do?

In the “Lord’s Recovery” they would say, “Pray”. Of course, I will. But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy, and love in Christ again?

Thank you.

Blessings,
InChristAlone

I may be wrong, but I think few people here who have escaped LC did so because someone else convinced them to do so.

The first practical step is to renounce all desire to pull them out of the cult. This must be the last thing on your mind. The cult is like one of those Chinese finger traps - you pull, it tightens.

Just be happy she's found something she likes - if you don't like it, you gotta show her something better, that's girlfriend 101. I am sure it's the same with wives. Within two months of me leaving LC and enjoying something else on a Sunday, my gf was "jaaaaaaaaames73, can I come to X with you??".

And of course I told her no. "You gotta keep going to the Lord's Table!" I said and that was the clincher, she's not been back since. Hahaha. If that sounds manipulative, it wasn't intended like that at the time it just happened. And it COULD happen because I followed practical step #1 above.

Well, that was my experience. Not belittling anyone else's more difficult extraction, and I know there are enough tragic stories on these boards to show that really, it's a lot of luck whether a couple gets out as one piece or gets broken up.

Good luck!

[InChristAlone]

james73, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are right. I gotta show her something better. So far I have no idea what it may be. I can't convince her because for any leeist, WL is a greater spiritual authority than anyone else. I want it to be her inner work, but I do not know what can trigger that.

Wish there were a method or an algorithm, but it usually goes with logic. While someone's belief is an irrational thing.

I’d like to stop going to the Lord’s Table, but I am afraid my wife will not understand me. I will be another sinner who needs a lot of prayer.

Thanks again! And God bless.

[awareness]

Bro InChristAlone, how long have y'all been in the LC?

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro InChristAlone, how long have y'all been in the LC?

My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.

Have you been married that long? Any kids?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.

Even after we left my wife still had some doubts because we were leaving so much behind (all our friendships, and service in ministry), but ultimately she sealed her decision ironically because of a teaching they stressed in the LC- that a wife has to submit to her husband, and this is the reason she used to those who were trying to get her back (I share this with you because it could be something you could use). In the locality we left, I was portrayed as the enemy who was evilly influencing her, but thank God she stuck by me which I am very thankful to both God and her for.

It all started when I think God spoke to me in the morning during prayer time. The thought was "unless you leave the LCs, you cannot become an overcomer". I didn't hear it audibly but it was such a strong thought and it was overwhelming me. So I asked God that if this was from him then he had to help my wife see things the way I did about the LC. After that prayer, a chain of events started which led us to leave.

In all this process I gave my wife a lot of freedom and never forced my will onto her. I just gave her my perspective. I was afraid if I forced her that she would push back and concerning this point, I think james is very correct. However I did tell her that I felt I was dying spiritually in the LCs and had no way to go on which was true at the time.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

james73, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are right. I gotta show her something better. So far I have no idea what it may be. I can't convince her because for any leeist, WL is a greater spiritual authority than anyone else. I want it to be her inner work, but I do not know what can trigger that.

Wish there were a method or an algorithm, but it usually goes with logic. While someone's belief is an irrational thing.

I’d like to stop going to the Lord’s Table, but I am afraid my wife will not understand me. I will be another sinner who needs a lot of prayer.

Thanks again! And God bless.

Hi, I actually went through something similar with my wife and can imagine how tough of a situation it is. I prayed that if God wanted us to leave then he had to help me make it happen. And he did, gloriously. After some time the real fruits of being in the LC manifested itself and that was the evidence God gave me to help steer my wife to the truth.

If you'd like to fellowship more here is my email:

sam at eternityinourheart dot com

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi, I actually went through something similar with my wife. I prayed that if God wanted us to leave then he had to help me make it happen. And he did, gloriously. After some time the real fruits of being in the LC manifested itself and that was all the evidence God gave me to help steer my wife to the truth.

If you'd like to fellowship more here is my email:

sam at eternityinourheart dot com

Thank you, Sam. I think you have a good point. With God all things are possible. I'll keep in touch with you soon.

Besides prayer, I believe I need to start questioning the doctrine. Step by step. It's my fault that I used to take it for granted. I did not really bother to check out the facts. Even when I read something that did not make sense to me, I thought, "Ok. Maybe it's in the Bible. I do not know the Scriptures well enough".

I was saved in a "denominational church", and started to attend the Local Church conferences and the Lord's table meetings after my marriage. At the beginning, I tried to understand the teaching. It seemed all right to me. A bit advanced because I could not get why they need the "Body", "oneness" and the New Jerusalem when they are not ready for these things. (In my humble opinion). But then I wanted to be closer to Christ. I wanted to learn how to forgive and love my neighbour. But they kept on teaching me something else. They wanted me to have oneness, to be in one accord, and keep on building the 'Body". What for? Where is the way to Christ here? How can we have oneness if we do not have love in our hearts?

Looking back I now believe that the Local Church does not give a good path for a spiritual growth. You can be full of knowledge, but if you have no love in your heart, why do you need that information? Take a look at the leaders of the organization. They seem to be nice people, and they have a proper appearance. But do they look spiritual? To me they look and talk like scholars and lecturers, not spiritual leaders. Appearances are deceptive, but not in numbers.

One more thing that doesn’t make sense to me is shouting while praying at prayer meetings. We all know that God is omnipresent, i.e. present everywhere at the same time. Why do we need to chant and shout then? To be heard? God can hear even our breath. So why do we need to scream out? If we do not talk to our parents in such a way, why do we do that to Our Heavenly Father? They say they touch the Lord in this way. Maybe. Thought I have never seen anyone touched. Affected by their emotions and noise – yes. But that’s all.

I am sorry for my wife and other believers. Most of them are sincere, naive and good-hearted people. It’s pity that they have been deceived.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I was saved in a "denominational church"

Brother, this matter of denominations is a big deception which strikes at the core of their existence. After decades of dealing with this, I came to the conclusion that what makes a "denomination" is not a name, but a controlling headquarters, which LSM is. How can they claim to not have a name, when they sued my old "church in Columbus" over the rights to that name? What hypocrisy is that?

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I could not get why they need the "Body", "oneness" and the New Jerusalem when they are not ready for these things ... They wanted me to have oneness, to be in one accord, and keep on building the 'Body". What for?

After studying much church history, I learned that these teachings of distorted oneness have been some of the most destructive of all. At best they are controlling and manipulative, at worst they were used by the Catholic Church to torture and kill all those who violated the "oneness of the Holy Catholic Church." Because of the demands of distorted oneness, members were forced to conform to every heresy and evil Satan threw at them. Under the threat of death, and tortures to bring about compliance, all Catholics were forced to kneel to Marble Mary in order to "keep the oneness."

Proper Biblical oneness emphasizes our relationship with God and those around us. Corinthians tells us it is "many members, but one body," which was the local church in Corinth. Lee convinced us it was "many churches, but one body," which could only be realized in his ministry at LSM. Thus your relationship with others was far less significant than your relationship "with the ministry." This one error alone explains why their is so little love in that program, and how they can sue anyone who disagrees.

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

But then I wanted to be closer to Christ. I wanted to learn how to forgive and love my neighbour. Where is the way to Christ here? How can we have oneness if we do not have love in our hearts?

You're not the first one who was troubled by this. Back in the 70's we did have much emphasis on love and forgiveness. We would always examine our heart before we broke bread, asking the Lord to shine on any offenses. More than once I sought out a brother to apologize to right before we broke bread.

My how things have changed!

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Looking back I now believe that the Local Church does not give a good path for a spiritual growth. You can be full of knowledge, but if you have no love in your heart, why do you need that information? Take a look at the leaders of the organization. They seem to be nice people, and they have a proper appearance. But do they look spiritual? To me they look and talk like scholars and lecturers, not spiritual leaders. Appearances are deceptive, but not in numbers.

Read what the apostle Paul says about love in I Cor 13, and the lack thereof. I no longer believe that the Recovery even cares about spiritual growth. It is all about commitment to their program. Over the years the leaders have also changed. All of those who were genuinely spiritual have been either quarantined or left voluntarily because of what was happening.

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

One more thing that doesn’t make sense to me is shouting while praying at prayer meetings. We all know that God is omnipresent, i.e. present everywhere at the same time. Why do we need to chant and shout then? To be heard? God can hear even our breath. So why do we need to scream out? If we do not talk to our parents in such a way, why do we do that to Our Heavenly Father? They say they touch the Lord in this way. Maybe. Thought I have never seen anyone touched. Affected by their emotions and noise – yes. But that’s all.

There are times when shouting was real and anointed by the Spirit. What they are left with today, however, is called "vain babbling."

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I am sorry for my wife and other believers. Most of them are sincere, naive and good-hearted people. It’s pity that they have been deceived.

I place all the responsibility on the evil workers. Paul call them "dogs." As you say, nearly all the saints I have ever known were genuinely precious.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

I may be wrong, but I think few people here who have escaped LC did so because someone else convinced them to do so.

I would not encourage that. It may result in stumbling. If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.
My experience required no convincing. At least directly. In directly through the evil speaking of former leading ones, something was off and it seemed as if I was the only who was inwardly disturbed by the condescension and slander until I came to formerly thebereans.net and now this forum.
I don't see quite as escaping the local churches, but needing to find a Christian fellowship that meets my spiritual needs.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Terry

I would not encourage that. It may result in stumbling. If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.
My experience required no convincing. At least directly. In directly through the evil speaking of former leading ones, something was off and it seemed as if I was the only who was inwardly disturbed by the condescension and slander until I came to formerly thebereans.net and now this forum.
I don't see quite as escaping the local churches, but needing to find a Christian fellowship that meets my spiritual needs.

My wife would have never realized the need to leave the LCs, but now after we left we both know we were much better off for it despite the warnings from some LCers that we would fall spiritually. Our marriage is also much better off now.

This brother's post is spot on. We've both learned to love and forgive much more than in the past due to being fed by our current church ministry. This has helped our marriage and relationships tremendously. There was also a lot of brokenness in our past, such as my struggle with rejection, bitterness, unforgiveness and shyness that God was able to heal in us through the word, his speaking and the ministry from the new church we are in. I'm a completely different person now than I was in the LCs and it feels good to be free and have all these chains broken, and I hope others can come to share in this after leaving the LCs.

A lot of strain was brought into our relationship because of the new baby, but we've been able to overcome a lot of difficulties and pitfalls in our marriage through a lot of prayer, love, forgiveness and trying to see things from the other person's perspective. I think my marriage would have been in danger honestly had we not found the church we're meeting in now.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My wife would have never realized the need to leave the LCs, but now after we left we both know we were much better off for it despite the warnings from some LCers that we would fall spiritually. Our marriage is also much better off now.

This brother's post is spot on. We've both learned to love and forgive much more than in the past due to being fed by our current church ministry. This has helped our marriage and relationships tremendously. There was also a lot of brokenness in our past, such as my struggle with rejection, bitterness, unforgiveness and shyness that God was able to heal in us through the word, his speaking and the ministry from the new church we are in. I'm a completely different person now than I was in the LCs and it feels good to be free and have all these chains broken, and I hope others can come to share in this after leaving the LCs.

Amen! My wife was not raised in the local churches as I was. She enjoyed being with the brothers and sisters for the Lord's Table, but was indifferent towards Witness Lee's ministry. A bigger concern is how we regard one another as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Since moving on, the Community church we now meet, I learned an important lesson about grace. How to give grace practically.

For my parents, for my uncle and aunt, I would never try to convince them to leave. It's much more than spiritual. For many of the older couples I know in their 60's and 70's, the local church is their social connection.
For younger brothers I know raised in the local churches, I wouldn't say anything that could result in them being stumbled. As long as it meets your need, go on positively.

[InChristAlone]

Brothers, I’d like to thank all of you for your words of support and encouragement. Two days ago I had no idea what to do. Now, with your help, I have some ideas that look like a plan. I just need God’s grace.

I also want to thank the brother who sent me this private message, along with his kind permission to post it here. I believe his advice will be helpful for everyone who is in my shoes.

I would suggest one simple 'operating instruction' from the mouth of Jesus himself: "What God has put together, let no man tear apart." God put you and your wife together. Just be simple and love her. Don't stress about the Local Church thing. Just be a simple, grateful redeemed sinner who has been rescued by the love of God in Christ Jesus. And God in His wisdom put you with your wife. So my advice is to respect that, and respect that for now anyway God has allowed her to be in the Local Church.

My point is don't focus on your wife's relationship with the Local Church, but rather focus on what you can control, which is your relationship with your wife. If you work at it every day it will be "heaven" to you, even if she is in the Local Church. If she is there, then you are there. Why? Because you are with her, and God gave you an unbreakable love for her. God put you together. Nothing will break this.

If your wife sees, every day, evidence of your great love for her in Christ Jesus then she will be happy. Let God deal with the Local Church situation. God put her, or allowed her anyway, to be there. God put you together. So just seek God there and he'll bless you.

Peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

p.s. As far as prayer I find that we too often ask for 'our' things, instead of asking what does God want. If we find ourselves seeking what God wants ("seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness") then God can easily deal with our needs and our situations. If your prayers begin to echo the prayers of the interceding Jesus in heaven, then you will begin to see the earth move around you. Note the impact Jesus had on the earth. Anyone can can have that impact if they simply seek the Father's will. Forget about you, your wife, the Local Church. Seek God's kingdom. You will be astonished at what happens. God will surprise you. He loves to bless His children!

God bless you all.
InChristAlone

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by awareness

In the situation you are in make sure you don't make any. You're in a pickle enough already.

awareness, you are right, but we still want to have kids. I'll leave it to the Lord.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother, this matter of denominations is a big deception which strikes at the core of their existence. After decades of dealing with this, I came to the conclusion that what makes a "denomination" is not a name, but a controlling headquarters, which LSM is. How can they claim to not have a name, when they sued my old "church in Columbus" over the rights to that name? What hypocrisy is that?

Ohio, I agree with you. The Local Church is a denomination in its own right, the denomination of Witness Lee. When they say they do not have any hierarchy, it doesn't look plausible to me. What about their elders, responsible brothers, full-timers and WL on the top of this structure? Isn't it some kind of hierarchy? When I pointed this issue to my wife, she said, “We are all equal. We are all brothers and sisters, nobody is higher than anybody else.” But then... why do they collect money so that some of these equal brothers to get a salary? They seem to be doing a priest’s job.

Originally Posted by Ohio

After studying much church history, I learned that these teachings of distorted oneness have been some of the most destructive of all...

Proper Biblical oneness emphasizes our relationship with God and those around us. Corinthians tells us it is "many members, but one body," which was the local church in Corinth. Lee convinced us it was "many churches, but one body," which could only be realized in his ministry at LSM. Thus your relationship with others was far less significant than your relationship "with the ministry." This one error alone explains why their is so little love in that program, and how they can sue anyone who disagrees.

That’s a very good point.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Read what the apostle Paul says about love in I Cor 13, and the lack thereof. I no longer believe that the Recovery even cares about spiritual growth. It is all about commitment to their program. Over the years the leaders have also changed. All of those who were genuinely spiritual have been either quarantined or left voluntarily because of what was happening.

1 Corinthians 13

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I place all the responsibility on the evil workers. Paul call them "dogs." As you say, nearly all the saints I have ever known were genuinely precious.

I have never met the evil workers. Maybe they are in the headquarters. But I do not see a way for the genuinely precious saints to know the truth and leave this organization... Unless bro Ed, bro Ron and Co. tell them “We were wrong.”

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just a suggestion ... please do not use the word "cult."

Maybe not at the very beginning. Ideally, I’d like it to be her own conclusion.

Originally Posted by Terry

If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.

That’s a problem for me. My wife has the peace. She “enjoys the Lord” in the Lord’s Recovery. But it’s a false church, and I do not want my wife to follow false prophets and their questionable doctrines. She does not grow spiritually. Besides, she encourages other people to join this organization.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.

[bearbear]

Also I think prayer is very important. After I believed it was God's will for us to leave and I prayed to this direction, God gave me the wisdom to help steer my wife away from the LCs gradually. Another thing that contributed was getting in touch with healthy non-LC Christians so that my wife could witness that there is really healthy fruit out there outside of the LCs. In my case this was my aunt.

One compelling reason why God doesn't want people to stay in the LC is simple: He is angry when people steal the glory that belongs to him. When Herod simply failed to give God the glory, he was smited (Acts 12:18-25). Another example is when Hezekiah showed off all the things God gave him to the Babylonians. Despite having been faithful to God all his life, his kingdom was severely judged for his hubris. Some "servants" of God throughout history have unfortunately followed in the same pattern and one would really hate to be in their shoes on the day of judgment.

You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus. I think this is a point that all LCers are aware of and subconsciously know they are guilty of and one can also work in this direction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus.

One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."

Ohio, bearbear, thanks! Another good point. I will ask my wife to start counting.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.

ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?

There's a thread here about Psalms that'll show you why someone in the LC would benefit from reading it without footnotes, and James is in the same boat as far as they're concerned.

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

If your wife has been in the LC for 30+ years she's heard how many of the Psalms and much of James has been traduced. She's also probably just taken their word for it without having gone and read for herself. If you were to read it both books together without the footnotes, she'd be forced to consider the books, to let them speak for themselves so to speak. Without footnotes many in the LC are unable to tell you why a verse or pslam or author has been deemed not in line with God's economy. Reading these in context would give them a much broader picture than the picking and choosing, cutting and pasting and chopping that are the content of a lot of the notes and much of the morning revival material. It would make them consider God's word. That's the first step. Ultimately, your pitting whatever you see wrong in the LC doctrine or practice against God's word. Get her (and yourself) intimately familiar with it.

[bearbear]

Hi ABrotherInTheFaith, I just saw this 3 minute video today which is spot on with what you just said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Is8QnxviOI

and everyone in the LC, including myself and those of us who left should see.

[InChristAlone]

ABrotherinFaith, thank you so much! We will start reading them.

[bearbear]

I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

This is a profound statement.

As I was pointing out in a different context (another thread here) today, when someone says that you are learning something that cannot be seen by anyone else, or they have to rewrite the scripture to make their teachings work, then it is only those who do not read and try to critically understand what the scripture is actually saying that will continue to follow.

Says a lot for those who continue to follow Nee and Lee.

[InChristAlone]

The ways of God are past finding out. A few days ago I thought that the Local Church, in spite of all the quirks and oddities, teaches the word of God, but now I see clearly that it's not a church of God but a cult of Witness Lee. They teach Witness Lee's teachings, not Jesus's teachings. How come I never thought of this? What a delusion. It's like you are dreaming, but you have no idea that it's a dream. It's full of shams, delusions, and glowing signs that it's a dream but you take them real. You can't realize that you are dreaming because you are in there, deep inside. Mr Lee was indeed the true enchanter, whose spell operates upon the heart, the mind and the soul, beyond imagination.

“Be hole, be dust, be dream, be wind,
Be night, be dark, be wish, be mind,
Now slip, now slide, now move unseen,
Above, beneath, betwixt, between.”

It's pity to see how Lee’s teaching poisons every follower. Poor girls and boys become “dead men walking”, but they don’t even realize that.

I mentioned "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" in a thread. One of the latest titles says, "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose." I never even thought over its meaning. It was the "high-peak truth," too deep and profound for my understanding. And now I see that "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose" does not mean anything. As a brother said, "it's just clanging cymbals". There is no substance in this mantra. Where do we meet this mumbo-jumbo in the Bible? It has nothing to do with the Word of God. It’s not Jesus’s teaching but Lee’s.

“Was blind but now I see...”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

This comment goes far to support my paradigm of an early-Lee and a later-Lee. In the early days, many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God. They knew how to read the Bible for themselves.

Nearly all of these gifted brothers are now gone from the movement. Many of them stated plainly that Lee led the Recovery in a direction contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to the founding principles which first caught their attention.

So, I have recently become aware that there is a college conference or "training" in my college town. My friend used to hate them, but she's been brainwashed and soaked back up into this mess, so I'm sure she's been at the conference all day. I know she just always used to feel uncomfortable and never enjoyed the experience.

Can anyone tell me what it's like? Maybe a schedule, the atmosphere, how everyone is dressed, what people say?

I found some guidelines that said this:

"Seek first God’s kingdom and His righteousness.
Cultivate an atmosphere of prayer, fellowship, and seeking the Lord.
Study all materials as required and be prepared for testing.
Abide punctually by the schedule and diligently fulfill all assigned responsibilities.
Do not engage in social relationships with the opposite sex.
Dress code: No sleeveless shirts permitted; no shorts, jeans, T-shirts or flip-flops are to be worn in the meetings.
Sign out when leaving the training facilities for any length of time outside of scheduled activities.
Keep a good testimony by respecting all property including the grounds, equipment, and furnishings; maintain cleanliness and orderliness of living and meeting facilities at all times."

From this site: http://www.collegetraining.org/home/2014/

So... are there tests? What happens if you don't pass a test?

Anyways, my best friend is still in this mess. Every time I talk to her it's like talking to a new person. She's rude, mean, and heartless to me. Seems like she doesn't care about me anymore, nor does she want anything to do with me. This all started when she decided to dive head first back into this church. But she's had her moments where she'll apologize for not being herself and she's even told me "I don't belong there."

So, I need a lot of prayers on this one. I hate it for my best friend, and I hate to lose her but it feels like that's what's happening. I mean, she's losing herself.

Any advice on helping me help her? Also, any testimonies about the college trainings and the experience of those?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

So, I have recently become aware that there is a college conference or "training" in my college town. My friend used to hate them, but she's been brainwashed and soaked back up into this mess, so I'm sure she's been at the conference all day. I know she just always used to feel uncomfortable and never enjoyed the experience.

Can anyone tell me what it's like? Maybe a schedule, the atmosphere, how everyone is dressed, what people say?

I found some guidelines that said this:

"Seek first God’s kingdom and His righteousness.
Cultivate an atmosphere of prayer, fellowship, and seeking the Lord.
Study all materials as required and be prepared for testing.
Abide punctually by the schedule and diligently fulfill all assigned responsibilities.
Do not engage in social relationships with the opposite sex.
Dress code: No sleeveless shirts permitted; no shorts, jeans, T-shirts or flip-flops are to be worn in the meetings.
Sign out when leaving the training facilities for any length of time outside of scheduled activities.
Keep a good testimony by respecting all property including the grounds, equipment, and furnishings; maintain cleanliness and orderliness of living and meeting facilities at all times."

From this site: http://www.collegetraining.org/home/2014/

So... are there tests? What happens if you don't pass a test?

Anyways, my best friend is still in this mess. Every time I talk to her it's like talking to a new person. She's rude, mean, and heartless to me. Seems like she doesn't care about me anymore, nor does she want anything to do with me. This all started when she decided to dive head first back into this church. But she's had her moments where she'll apologize for not being herself and she's even told me "I don't belong there."

So, I need a lot of prayers on this one. I hate it for my best friend, and I hate to lose her but it feels like that's what's happening. I mean, she's losing herself.

Any advice on helping me help her? Also, any testimonies about the college trainings and the experience of those?

Thanks!

I won't post much. The atmosphere depends on the person. The people are generally very open and friendly. I won't say that is true of everyone there are some that are a bit rude, they are a minority. There are rules but they seem harsher on paper then in reality. No one chides you for breaking any rule. The test is just verse memorization. You can't fail it. They don't even tell you the results. The dress is typical training regulation for the group. Long skirts for the girls and guys wears chinos/khakis/dress pants.

Now for a personal bit. There is a clear generational gap between the leaders and the trainees. As a lot of us have seen this forum and are very aware of the issues. Those that came before us view Lee very much as a father and this can be very dangerous. It can blind there decision making. None of us have ever met the guy he died in 1997. Though we benefit from his teaching and others. For those that regularly attend the conferences for yp. At least in the midwest their seems to be a clear vibe that "Were not perfect", we can't be perfect, were human. Now acknowledging the past and apologizing I don't see it happening. Though it seems if a situation happened like that here in the midwest they would be more forward in its dealings. If you have anymore specific question please act. I don't think I would be able to talk on general topics much.

Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!

I can relate. As soon as I stopped meeting in the Friday night home meetings etc, the phone calls stop and the emails stop coming from brothers and sisters to my wife and I.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!

NeedOfHelp, I am sorry if my experience made you come up with this decision. I don't know if it's right or not. I just share my experience. Man's transformation doesn't happen over night. So far, my efforts to pull my wife out don't seem to be effective. No matter what I say, no matter what I do, it's all useless. At least outwardly. My wife is living under delusion, she likes it and doesn't want to wake up. So, I believe it's only God's grace that can help her. But it's my responsibility to live the right spiritual life so that my wife see some light in the darkness of the LRC teachings.

We judge the tree by the fruit it bears. If your friend became mean and rude to you, you may have an idea of what kind of "church" she attends. Wish I knew how to get your friend back to you, but I don't have the solution. Just pray for her, be a true Christian and grow in your spiritual life, purifying yourself of all worldly and moral defects in order to be united with the love of Christ. "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect." So, live in Christ, becoming perfect in God, through love.

Who knows, maybe one day your friend gets back to you and asks for forgiveness. You will not need to be with her but you have to be ready to forgive her. She is not a bad person, but a victim of a false teaching. Treat her with love. Always.

If you want, you may write her a letter. Then - come what may. Trust the Lord. As I said earlier, my experience says to me that all is for the best. Life goes on. Bless your friend and her path, and ask the Lord to lead you through the situation towards the best for both of you.

May the Lord bless and help you.

With love in Christ,
ICA

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

It is my personal impression that this rudeness comes out of spiritual pride and self-righteousness which LSM ministers to its adherents.

[Eph]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

...
But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy...

My own experience tells me that it is difficult to "pull" them out by "telling" them. It's a subjective experience. Stories varied. Some might involve Lord's callings. Mine was ugly and inhumane.

If they are happy there, let them be. Our Lord loves them too. It will cause unnecessary frictions among us when our love ones are pushed too hard.

Someone once told me: Going through poverty might be a good thing, so you will know going to the "full time training" is a stupid thing to do. How do you feed your family while going to the training? I was too comfortable (never lived in poverty) so that I had time and money to attend meetings after meetings and buying LSM books after books. When I stopped doing that, I saw the other side of the local church I was in. It's my sujective experience.