Truth

[Nell]

Here are a few remarks from Watchman Nee and what he believed (at least what he wrote) about "following the brothers" and "truth". We could contrast this also to “even if he (Lee) is wrong, he’s right.”

"What does it mean to be absolute to the truth? It means to set aside feelings, to ignore personal relationships, and to not stand for the self. The truth is absolute. Our personal feelings, relationships, experiences and encounters should not be mixed up with it. Since truth is absolute, what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. ...

If the way we take is right, it is always right; it does not become right because this brother is taking this way. If the way we take is wrong, it cannot be made right simply because this brother is taking this way.

Whether or not the way is right has nothing to do with this brother. Even if this brother becomes fallen, the way is still right because the truth is absolute. However, many people have their eyes set only on this brother. They think that if this brother is right, the way he has chosen must be right as well, and if the brother is wrong, the way he has chosen also must be wrong. Are their eyes on the truth, or are they on the person?" (emphasis added)

The Character of the Lord's Worker, by Watchman Nee Chapter 10, p. 154 +

This statement should also be applied to “the character of every man”.

The link below takes you to an online version of the book and an amazing statement on truth...amazing on several different levels. It’s a quick read.

Nell

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=3D07C7

[byHismercy]

https://youtu.be/cq-r9FFN5ew

Nell, this video I think relates to the condition of every man and looks at scripture, specifically 'pasha' or the breaking of trust. I love how this group breaks scriptural truth down best as they can using the literal translations of words and word studies. I see a discrepancy between Gods' word and what Lee believed and taught.

It is so easy to think oneself right and be guilty of pasha, or breaking trust with someone. Or many someones.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

this video I think relates to the condition of every man and looks at scripture, specifically 'pasha' or the breaking of trust..

Great video.

Originally Posted by Nell

Here are a few remarks from Watchman Nee and what he believed -- "If the way we take is right, it is always right; it does not become right because this brother is taking this way. If the way we take is wrong, it cannot be made right simply because this brother is taking this way."

First, is there God? Does God exist? That's a personal decision in the path of truth. Perhaps like the "quantum entanglement" dilemma... something that can be inferred, and offers explanatory power, but not objectively "proven". It's a hypothesis more attractive than others, so I believe, and am willing to put the test: "Whoever calls, 'Lord Jesus!' shall be saved" (Rom 10:13; Acts 2:21; cf Joel 2:32). I believe, confess, and try to line with (repent and obey) this revealed God.

So, is this God true?

Psalm 119 - Lamed (NET)

O Lord, your instructions endure;
they stand secure in heaven.
You demonstrate your faithfulness to all generations.
You established the earth and it stood firm.
Today they stand firm by your decrees,
for all things are your servants.
If I had not found encouragement in your law,
I would have died in my sorrow.
I will never forget your precepts,
for by them you have revived me.
I belong to you. Deliver me!
For I seek your precepts.
The wicked prepare to kill me,
yet I concentrate on your rules.
I realize that everything has its limits,
but your commands are beyond full comprehension.

This passage shows that God's word is firm in the heavens. All the heavenly beings know that God's word is good, because God is good, that God's word is faithful because God is faithful, that God's word remains steadfast because God is true (righteous, just). When God speaks, it comes to pass. God can speak "something" to "nothing" and suddenly there it is! All the heavenly beings know this. God's instruction is secure in the heavens, because God is secure in the heavens.

But it's not (yet)secure on earth, because of "transgression", as we see in the video that was linked. But there was a man, who said, "Everything the Father speaks, I do", who is become our Way (John 14:24; 15:10). He is the Way. He's true, just as the Father's word is true. He's the Logos, the Word of God made flesh.

Now, to Watchman Nee's statement: "If the way we take is right..." which implies some derived formulation or methodology like "proper ground", "genuine church life", "God's NT economy", "one city one church", which is now our path, or way. Our path becomes a central or prime dogma, not the person Jesus. This dogma, however, becomes malleable in the hands of sinners. For example, Nee first proclaimed "localism", but later proclaimed "centralism" aka "the Jerusalem principle". Or, in the early years in the Little Flock, women were instrumental, but in the LC 100 years later they were relegated to the back row because "The Bible says..."

Truth in the hands of eathly humanity becomes a cipher -- whatever fallen and confused people want today is supposedly "truth". We shouldn't even say, like Nee, "If the way we take is right..." because the Way we take is Jesus Christ. He's right because he's obedient and the Father is right. He alone is true.

Related, Paul wrote, "Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." (Rom 3:4; cf Psa 51:4). All of us are like David, caught in a mess. God alone is right and true. So my posts here on this forum are not true, Witness Lee's messages are not true, nor is Watchman Nee's "the way we take"... Jesus alone is true.

But look what Jesus said to Peter, echoing Psalm 51. "I have prayed for you, and when you turn you will strengthen the brothers". Luke 22:32. Peter was false, claiming fealty to Christ. No, Christ was true, and interceding for Peter in his failure, loss and shame. We have this Great High Priest in the heavens. God's word is true, and Christ's intercession is true.

Here is Psalm 51:12,13 "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and sustain me with a willing spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners will return to You." Those who practice 'pashad' or transgression will be restored as they see the Righteous One and believe. And their restoration will be a beacon to the sinners around them. Peter became such a beacon, as David centuries before. We all have this opportunity. But it is his fealty, his faithfulness, not ours.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

https://youtu.be/cq-r9FFN5ew

Nell, this video I think relates to the condition of every man and looks at scripture, specifically 'pasha' or the breaking of trust. I love how this group breaks scriptural truth down best as they can using the literal translations of words and word studies. I see a discrepancy between Gods' word and what Lee believed and taught.

It is so easy to think oneself right and be guilty of pasha, or breaking trust with someone. Or many someones.

Wow! Great word study on this video! This video describes what so quickly changed my attitude towards Lee -- he violated the trust we placed in him. Then he attacked those who addressed this "pasha" -- the breaking of a trust relationship.

In this regard, no one has ever "rebelled" against Lee, rather it was he who rebelled against us, by violating the normal trust which is placed in a minister or teacher of the Bible.

[byHismercy]

Nell, can you cut and paste the portion up for discussion from your opening post? I could not navigate to it for some reasom...

[UntoHim]

Unfortunately, LSM makes it difficult to post a link that goes directly to a particular book or portion of a book.

What you need to do is to go to: https://www.ministrybooks.org/

Then go to "Books by Title A-Z"

Then navigate to the letter "C", and under C you will find the book: "Character of the Lord's Worker, The" - Click on this link to take you to the table of content for this book.
-

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Great video.



First, is there God? Does God exist? That's a personal decision in the path of truth. Perhaps like the "quantum entanglement" dilemma... something that can be inferred, and offers explanatory power, but not objectively "proven". It's a hypothesis more attractive than others, so I believe, and am willing to put the test: "Whoever calls, 'Lord Jesus!' shall be saved" (Rom 10:13; Acts 2:21; cf Joel 2:32). I believe, confess, and try to line with (repent and obey) this revealed God.

So, is this God true?

Psalm 119 - Lamed (NET)

O Lord, your instructions endure;
they stand secure in heaven.
You demonstrate your faithfulness to all generations.
You established the earth and it stood firm.
Today they stand firm by your decrees,
for all things are your servants.
If I had not found encouragement in your law,
I would have died in my sorrow.
I will never forget your precepts,
for by them you have revived me.
I belong to you. Deliver me!
For I seek your precepts.
The wicked prepare to kill me,
yet I concentrate on your rules.
I realize that everything has its limits,
but your commands are beyond full comprehension.

This passage shows that God's word is firm in the heavens. All the heavenly beings know that God's word is good, because God is good, that God's word is faithful because God is faithful, that God's word remains steadfast because God is true (righteous, just). When God speaks, it comes to pass. God can speak "something" to "nothing" and suddenly there it is! All the heavenly beings know this. God's instruction is secure in the heavens, because God is secure in the heavens.

But it's not (yet)secure on earth, because of "transgression", as we see in the video that was linked. But there was a man, who said, "Everything the Father speaks, I do", who is become our Way (John 14:24; 15:10). He is the Way. He's true, just as the Father's word is true. He's the Logos, the Word of God made flesh.

Now, to Watchman Nee's statement: "If the way we take is right..." which implies some derived formulation or methodology like "proper ground", "genuine church life", "God's NT economy", "one city one church", which is now our path, or way. Our path becomes a central or prime dogma, not the person Jesus. This dogma, however, becomes malleable in the hands of sinners. For example, Nee first proclaimed "localism", but later proclaimed "centralism" aka "the Jerusalem principle". Or, in the early years in the Little Flock, women were instrumental, but in the LC 100 years later they were relegated to the back row because "The Bible says..."

Truth in the hands of eathly humanity becomes a cipher -- whatever fallen and confused people want today is supposedly "truth". We shouldn't even say, like Nee, "If the way we take is right..." because the Way we take is Jesus Christ. He's right because he's obedient and the Father is right. He alone is true.

Related, Paul wrote, "Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." (Rom 3:4; cf Psa 51:4). All of us are like David, caught in a mess. God alone is right and true. So my posts here on this forum are not true, Witness Lee's messages are not true, nor is Watchman Nee's "the way we take"... Jesus alone is true.

But look what Jesus said to Peter, echoing Psalm 51. "I have prayed for you, and when you turn you will strengthen the brothers". Luke 22:32. Peter was false, claiming fealty to Christ. No, Christ was true, and interceding for Peter in his failure, loss and shame. We have this Great High Priest in the heavens. God's word is true, and Christ's intercession is true.

Here is Psalm 51:12,13 "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and sustain me with a willing spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners will return to You." Those who practice 'pashad' or transgression will be restored as they see the Righteous One and believe. And their restoration will be a beacon to the sinners around them. Peter became such a beacon, as David centuries before. We all have this opportunity. But it is his fealty, his faithfulness, not ours.

Right, Aron! There is no LC right way vs. Christianities evil, fallen way. Jesus Himself actually is the Way. He is the only Way to the Father. Every believer is with the Way! No difference. The thing is, what a deception. The enemy has got LC genuine christians dividing from other genuine Christian's for the sake of the 'oneness' of the body. Truly has me scratching my head.

[byHismercy]

Thank you, dear moderator! Will do.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wow! Great word study on this video! This video describes what so quickly changed my attitude towards Lee -- he violated the trust we placed in him. Then he attacked those who addressed this "pasha" -- the breaking of a trust relationship.

In this regard, no one has ever "rebelled" against Lee, rather it was he who rebelled against us, by violating the normal trust which is placed in a minister or teacher of the Bible.

Ohio, this was my experience also. Not with Lee or Anaheim against the midwest LCs, but just personally, our families' trust in the LC saints was deeply violated through their shunning of us. Personal relationships broken. Then the actual events were turned around and I was accused of breaking with them, etc. Which thought never entered my heart. But as Aron pointed out, Jesus paid their penalty, too. But I believe in our part....confession and repentance. So the guilty party would need to climb down off of their high horse of 'we are right' and acknowledge their pasha.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Thank you, dear moderator! Will do.

I thought about posting the data. However, there is this legal “thing” called the “fair use doctrine”. Quoting Wikipedia:

“Fair use is a doctrine in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder.”

Even though the text I referenced is fairly short, I hesitate to cut/paste the entire document. Fair use is in the eye of the copyright holder. It is totally within the rights of a copyright holder to exercise its copyright protection, I just don’t want to risk going down that road. The LSM has some pretty stringent warnings on its websites.

Another thing...I don’t have problems with that link on my iPad so it may have something to do with Apple vs Windows, etc.

Nell

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

I thought about posting the data. However, there is this legal “thing” called the “fair use doctrine”. Quoting Wikipedia:

“Fair use is a doctrine in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder.”

Even though the text I referenced is fairly short, I hesitate to cut/paste the entire document. Fair use is in the eye of the copyright holder. It is totally within the rights of a copyright holder to exercise its copyright protection, I just don’t want to risk going down that road. The LSM has some pretty stringent warnings on its websites.

Another thing...I don’t have problems with that link on my iPad so it may have something to do with Apple vs Windows, etc.

Nell

Nell, I found it easy peasy following UntoHims' instructions. I will read it and hopefully my following posts will relate. I seem to have trouble staying in the lane regarding opening posts. :-)

[byHismercy]

The first question I have for the authors of this book is, 'What qualifies one for baptism?' In my reading of the bible I never came across a list of qualifications one must meet (aside from faith in Christ!) before becoming qualified for baptism. I see, as is par for LC, elders decide if the son 'qualifies' for baptism. For the parent to acquiesce to son's wish for baptism......this is to leave the truth?

The rest reads like a half stated, my side of the story, now here is 'how you LCers must respond' instruction booklet for saints inside. Ticking boxes.......ticking cult BITE model boxes....

(I read 3 sections from 1st page of chpt. 10)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Another thing...I don’t have problems with that link on my iPad so it may have something to do with Apple vs Windows, etc.

Nell

Nell, my iPad popped up on random pages at LSM each time I linked. Perhaps it has to do with your IP address. Perhaps LSM cookies on your IP address redirect your browser.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, this was my experience also. Not with Lee or Anaheim against the midwest LCs, but just personally, our families' trust in the LC saints was deeply violated through their shunning of us. Personal relationships broken. Then the actual events were turned around and I was accused of breaking with them, etc. Which thought never entered my heart. But as Aron pointed out, Jesus paid their penalty, too. But I believe in our part....confession and repentance. So the guilty party would need to climb down off of their high horse of 'we are right' and acknowledge their pasha.

byHismercy, those who "shunned" you are also victims of sorts. Abuse begets abuse, just as love begets love.

When John taught (I Jn 2.27) that we have received an abiding anointing, which is true and not a lie, which teaches us all things, that we need no one else to teach us, it was in the context of love. Truth be told, "God is love" is proven by loving others.

Shunning, however, violates both the teaching anointing and the truth. Shunning weaponizes heresy to hold members in fear in order keep them in bondage. Here the LC church is no different from the local Amish or the Pharisees in Jesus' day. The leaders bear the most responsibility, but those who shun others must violate the love of God within their own hearts.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. LC leaders may teach that ex-members are "enemies," but their rotten traditions should not supersede the word of God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

There is no LC right way vs. Christianities evil, fallen way. Jesus Himself actually is the Way. He is the only Way to the Father. Every believer is with the Way! No difference.

On another thread (The Asian Mind/The Western Mind), I wrote that Asian values and mores are in no way inferior to the West, having served them for thousands of years. And I'd add that in the divine revelation it speaks of "every tribe and tongue and nation" glorifying God in Jesus Christ (Rev 5:9; 7:9). Surely God loves, appreciates, cares for every distinct tribe and tongue and nation. He didn't efface them into a grey proletariat. There are still clearly distinctions implied, in culture, language, custom, dress, mannerism, etc.

As such, the Chinese-birthed Little Flock and its promulgators Nee & Lee were a valid rejection of the "Western way" imposed on them. Why should the Sinim (cf Isa 49:10) queue up behind Britannia (Anglicans) or Italia (RCC) or Allemande (Lutherans) or USA (Baptists)? It made no sense. Nee rightly called out the abnormality. And the natives came into the Little Flock by the tens of thousands.

But I daresay "normality" for Nee, aka his "Normal Christian Church Life", was as subjectively skewed as the one that he rejected. It also was shot full of culturally-laden presuppositions, overlaid on scripture.

As such, WN's 'revelation' or interpretation wasn't necessarily inferior to those of Luther, Calvin or Wesley. He saw something in the word, which became his experience, and shared with others. We can't deny that. But neither he nor WL can impose that as objective, one-size-fits-all "truth" or "reality", or what's "normal", "genuine", or "proper" (their pet terms).

In their attempts to make their subjective experience "normal", or universal, they distorted the journeys of so many. I've seen dozens of testimonies, and for every public testimony there are others, too bewildered or discouraged even to speak up. And many have even abandoned the faith, linking it so tightly in their mind with their experiene in the supposedly "proper local church life".

Jesus as the Way to the Father allows for these tribes and tongues and nations - He doesn't efface them. WL's attempts to erase local distinctions was really an imposition of his own tribal values on everyone else. In his footnotes he's programmatic: "Every local church should be exactly identical, with no distinctions whatever". It didn't work. It just shifted the locus of control from "Rome" to "Beijing, by way of Anaheim".

[aron]

Here's a website with an essay by Ron Kangas, on the subject of deification.

http://www.forthetruth.org/pdfs/02_02_a1.pdf

"We are mindful of the fact that many will react in dismay, perhaps in horror, to find themselves confronted with the assertion that in Christ and through God's complete salvation that we who believe in Christ and are in Christ will become God in the limited sense posited here"

"We become God" is an assertion, it says, which is "posited here". It's an interpretation, a conceptual position consciously taken. Does that make it truth? I say no. Yet the website is called "for the truth dot org". But something merely asserted is not something true. It's an interpretation, not a truth, certainly not "the" truth... it's neither "recovered truth" nor "High peak truth". It's merely a questionable assertion, and those who question it are not "emasculating the words of the Bible with unbelief" as a quote in the essay says (p.15). Yes, the assertion is defensible, as the author does, but it's also questionable, as I do.

The essay cites the "noble Bereans" as precedent, as having open minds and checking the scriptures. But that evaluation in Acts was on the assertion of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. That issue was clearly resolved within the pages of the NT, right? I don't see that deification did similarly. If it's so important and so true, why didn't they just say so? Did the resurrection of Jesus get "lost" for centuries, only to be "recovered" by Darby or Spurgeon? No? Why not? Because it was as true to Christian's then as it is today.

I say that Christian "truth" is assented by all Christians since the pages of the NT were laid down. Jesus rising from the dead on the third day qualifies, whilst "we become God" does not. Again, Ron Kangas writes that it's an assertion, or something posited. Many of us, however, would not assert nor posit it, and they're not intellectually or morally deficient to those who do. Nor are they missing out on some great but not yet sufficiently known "truth".

But the Greek Orthodox Church teaches it, says the essay. Yes, Fallen Degraded Babylon, the Great Harlot teaches it, so that's now become the basis of truth for the LC?

I actually like the EOC and don't call them Harlot Babylon (as LSM will do), but just because the EOC holds to something that doesn't make it "truth" per se. In fact it seems to me that any "degradation of the church" which LSM deems its sole reason for existence (to ''recover'' us back from said degradation) is probably tied to the emergence of such teachings by the EOC et al - they held forth various derived abstractions like the "nature" of Christ, about which lack of consensus caused the Christian church to implode in the first place. See, e.g., the council of Chalcedon - do we really want to go back to one of the Chalcedon factions for support, to find our "pillar and base of the truth"?

As usual, the LC tries to have it both ways - to decry "poor Christianity" then turn round for support, when little else is available. That's not "truth" in any objective (or even subjective) sense.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I say that Christian "truth" is assented by all Christians since the pages of the NT were laid down. Jesus rising from the dead on the third day qualifies, whilst "we become God" does not.

Here is a quote that seems to be saying the same thing.

Originally Posted by OBW

Unfortunately, not all of Lee's errors are so easy to spot. Too often it is that he just makes a statement that X means Y without anything more than the fact that he says so. So how do you refute those? If there is no evidence that it is actually true, then he has gone "beyond what is written" and is outside of the truth that the scripture has provided. The whole sum of truth is not contained in the Bible. But what we need is. Claims of truth beyond that, no matter how good or spiritual it sounds, is beyond what is written and is, at minimum, suspect. It is clearly nothing upon which to demand anything. It cannot be a major teaching or become something of the "core" of the faith.

And it surely does not gain the status of being worthy of the job as the decoder ring to re-read and reinterpret other parts of the Bible.

If I say, "Jesus Christ rose from the dead" most Christians would say, "Yes, that's true." Not sure how one could say they're Christian and say it's not true. This is a long-established pillar of the Christian faith. The dissolution of the church as a unified body (to what extent it was unified) followed the pursuit of ever finer points as if they needed to be ever broader, i.e. universally prescribed.

I mean, look at the scripture. "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God has raised Jesus from the dead you shall be saved." Pretty definitive. We can argue over what "believe" really means, and what "saved" really means, but it still shouldn't pull us from the common meaning held by the flock since the beginning. What is public, open and firmly and consistently attested to is what's safe.