“THE FALSE TRUMPET STILL SOUNDS” - by a former member.

“THE FALSE TRUMPET STILL SOUNDS”. -
by a former member.


Another year gone, and another year without any positive changes in the world of the movement known as the Lords Recovery. As we are ready to step into the year 2024, with so many uncertainties surrounding our daily lives, for those of us who have unfortunately been connected to this group, know of one certainty: unless there is some great sign from the Lord and an eye opening experience occurs in the halls and hearts of those few men who lead this movement, they will continue to be on the war path with each and every one who beliefs or chooses to follow the Lords leading and get out from the yoke of men who usurped the headship of Christ, while installing themselves as the arbitrators of truth, faith and practice.

For the past 60 years or so, since this movement appeared on the horizon in the United States, the history of it is marred by some awful practices, treatment of people, false testimony against anyone and everyone who got up from the mat after being proverbially smacked in the face by these self appointed founders and their disciples. The pompous rhetoric that was heard loud and clear in the early stages of this movement, was the word from Lee, the unquestionable, intolerant founder of this “church”, stating that: “In 1962, I was commissioned by the Lord to sound the trumpet of His recovery in the United States.” (CWWL, 1977, vol. 1, "The Recovery of Christ in the Present Evil Age,")

This attitude of self serving and judgmental approach to “church planning”, is not some new recovery that the Lord decided to bring to this country. It’s not some great new hope, love and care for people that all of a sudden was dug up in in outer regions of the world to bring peace and life to those who are hurt. It was the same or worse strategy that the enemy has been using for centuries, cloaked in benevolent garment of enthusiasm, loud propositions, bold and scathing criticism of all prior men who walked on this land, doing and following the Lord for many many years. It’s a very simple strategy: divide & conquer!

As I peel back the curtain just a bit, from what appears on the outside of this new “recovery” as great looking house on the prairie, with beautifully synchronized paint colors, window treatments, architectural philosophy and even the carefully arranged, picked, well meaning greeters and recruiters that stay on the outside smiling and just looking for anyone who wants to get in. It’s kind of surreal, other worldly pietism that draws people to this movement, and in a lot of cases those people were hurt, mistreated, ideologically primed to have a false negative views of God, His people, and anything that’s associated with religious affiliations.

However that eye catching exterior is not all that beautiful once one chooses to enter this building, and although that initial impression of the outside could blind one for a while, and the smiles and careful words in the beginning stages of introductions and loud shouts of some victorious slang that kind of gives you a false sense of peace and care. “You haven’t seen anything yet “, - “it’s the best thing going”- you will be promised. “We are the Lords Recovery, it’s like you are back in the book of Acts again, isn’t that wonderful?”. “We don’t have any rules here at all, it’s just love. We don’t ever tell anyone what to do or say, we believe that each individual is led by the spirit and therefore is a valued member of the body of Christ”. You think to yourself that finally there is something different, maybe you will even get hopeful of changes in your life, so you just shove the feelings in your heart that kind of softly warns you: “If it’s sounds to good to be true, it most likely is”.

As the days, weeks, months and years tick away, and you kind of start waking up to the warning signs that start to appear, those same greeters and recruiters that probably by this time became your adopted parents, and slowly replaced your whole ecosystem that you had prior to entering this paradise. You start noticing that you can’t even handle any warnings from anyone besides those newly minted people in your live. You constantly are facing questions about your decisions, and being told that “Be careful, test, verify, pray before taking this new world into your heart”, but you no longer can have those people around you telling you that. You are told that those people are just “soulish, empty, haven’t seen the house on the prairie yet, or don’t have the eyes to see the reality!”

One day your caretakers out of their supposed love for you, told you that you must refrain from those people in your life. Most likely they are a stumbling block for your growth. They even gave you a book to read, saying “this will help you understand how and why they need to be cut off from your life”. Christ vs Religion child, and you need to take a side. Do you see this beautiful house on the outside? Do you see how it’s so wonderfully glorious? Why would you not want to look at it in amazement and shout in victory that you finally made it here? Isn’t that what you always wanted, hoped for, long for? The picture in your mind of those days back when you saw it, start playing with your emotions and your heart, so you just close your eyes, say amen, and do the deed as asked for the good of the body.

There appears to be one constant that begins to develop: the pictures of the outside can no longer be seen on the inside. The windows are covered with almost like blackout curtains. Those beautiful paint colors that drew you to it, become a bland, tasteless pain pills that you must take to go on another day. Those window treatments that looked amazing on the other side of the windows, block of the light, sun, fresh air and even the ability to see the beautiful house you are supposedly in. The architectural philosophy that looked good, now feels like a totalitarian occupation of your entire life. The over zealous shouts of “we have no rules here, and everyone is valuable”, changed to “you must die, be broken, follow a vision, don’t be this or that”. It’s like being in a horror movie while you are still alive, and the few select supposedly anointed, seem to be the only once who have access to something that you can’t have, literally just cutting your whole being apart, because according to them it’s been contaminated with whatever the flavor of the day is at a given time.

As you get further into it, you start realizing that the voice that you heard inside, and the people that were warning you, you should’ve paid more attention to. Frankly, you start seeing that those people actually who truly care for you, even though they were labeled a certain way by your superiors, those that like a broken record shout and hurdle insults at them on Sundays and every possible training or conference that you attend. They start to appear to you like a battery operated Halloween prop by the entry door of this once beautiful house, and have been programmed with deadly warnings if you decide to even consider to touch the door knob to exit;

-“There is no God working outside this house!”

-“You will die spiritually upon your exit from this paradise!

-“You need to be supplied by us for your life, otherwise you will suffer!”

-“You have no one that will care as much as we do!”

-“God will destroy you for leaving this, and not opening up or going forth with His move on earth!”

-“Satan has entered you, since you no longer can see how we are the God’s instruments and authority!”

-……..and it’s just keeps playing the tape of Lee and his disciples and their divisive spirit.

For over 60 years in this country, there have been many people who lived in this house on the prairie. They were deceived by the appearance, and eventually paid a great price for sometimes climbing out of the back window to escape. The Lords Recovery movement through many escapades and back door dealing, frivolous lawsuits and internal marketing and pure fear pressure, managed to make it thus far. They were able to change the public narrative in some circles, by having a cult label removed by a “Christian Institution”. They were able to shut down and silent many people who brought up their claims of superiority and hypocrisy. They were able to blend in now, just like another Christian group, and God forbid anyone says otherwise. They even now will point out to other churches and groups saying, “See, they all have problems”!

Nevertheless, that awful foundational premise that was laid by the founders of this movement will not and cannot be shed, because the whole structure will crumble to pieces. “The present evil” which is all those who are outside this group, must remain to be in place, otherwise those greeters and carefully picked recruiters will have no catchy lures out for their fishing expeditions. Even though they got their inclusiveness that they were so desperately seeking for decades from all other Christians, they themselves aren’t interested in giving up their exclusive move, ministry, special anointing hogwash that continues to permeate their hearts and lives.

- They still refuse to acknowledge and renounce the belligerent and militant spirit that upholds and plastered on the walls and hearts of those who run this institution.
- You will not see them join with other Christians for a whole town prayer, hold hands together with many believers who give their lives for the Lord daily.
- You will not hear them renounce the “we are THA Church” mantras, and you better get behind us in line, otherwise you are all whores of Babylon mixed with satan.
- You will not hear them acknowledge other churches in whatever town you live in as a church, and if you aren’t under the submission to the current apostolic mob, you town has no church. (https://shepherdingwords.com/genuine...r-independent/)
- You are the divisive ones if you choose to call them out on this, not them. You must come and offer “we were wrong” apologies, or else.
- You will never see them embrace or allow anyone but the founders of this institution to be viewed or heard as an equal members of the body of Christ. (See https://shepherdingwords.com/genuine...-new-covenant/ )
- You will still continue to see them post articles and content to deter everyone in their little movement, to avoid anyone and everyone who is not associated with LSM and it’s immediate followers. (See shepherdingwords.com for samples).
- They will still claim that they are the only people on earth that have recovered some truths that are closed and unavailable to all outsiders. (“Only in the Lord's recovery can one find books conveying real spiritual help, nourishment, and life.” CWWL, 1978, vol. 1, "The Present Need Among the Churches in the Lord's Recovery," )
- They will still claim that their move is some recovery of the lost “Christ”, and they will gain “ground”, including by trying to persuade other Christians to leave their churches and join them. (“The Lord's recovery is simply the recovery of Christ.” CWWL, 1978, vol. 3, "Crucial Elements of God's Economy,")
- …..and I could add another dozen of their claims. (Many available to read with their latest publications on the website provided above)

Well, Lee might have been successful to divide and conquer a lot of people in this country and elsewhere. What he calls degraded Christianity, which he was militant and labeled every evil label in a book has done what a true Christian should do, and thats to accept on bases of unity of faith in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately for Lee, it wasn’t what he was after, neither are his disciples. These men aren’t interested in that, because that would’ve eliminated Lee and them from the equation, and they would have to humble themselves as “just another servant of Christ”, and null and void their office of apostolic recovery. These men want something else, and that is to create a oneness based on their personal and private revelations, teachings and practices. This is what you call building another foundation, and no Christians should ever accept that as an olive branch to unity.

It’s another year added on to many many years of this so called recovery. The beat goes on, and they still sound the trumpet initially brought into this country by a men who thought of himself to be some specially commissioned to recover the “church” in the United States. The house on the prairie is still there, and the greeters and recruiters use the same lures to catch people who are primed, hurt, given up on God because of many thing that happened in their lifetime. They don’t know yet of the interior design, the back walls of this beautifully synchronized exterior paint, architectural philosophy and that those great looking window treatments will completely block out them from seeing the light for a while, or forever. Due to their hurts and previous life experiences, some will ignore the softly spoken voice that’s saying “it’s to good to be true”.

Just as it was done the first time around, not everything that is pleasant to our eye is good to partake, nor is the desire to experience something other worldly. Sometimes having a house on the end of the street with a bunch of imperfections, maybe a little worn and looking like no one lives there is a way to go. It’s what on the inside that should be attractive: warmth, love, care, and ability to see through the windows outside. It’s having a ray of sunlight illuminate your whole room to show you the dirty corners or cobwebs that are starting to form when there is lack of light and transparency. No one will need to tell you to clean up, because you will see it yourself, and maybe have the courage to take on a task rather than being dissected in life format. For those who have recovered from “recovery”, praise be to God who is able. But for those who still enjoy having a prop by the door for another year, please have fun and leave all of us who escaped through the back window enjoying the life outside. We are quite lucky, or blessed, but what’s more important: is that the foundational cornerstone on which we were hooked is gone. That divisive and militant ideology is no longer part of our lives, that spirit of exclusiveness is no longer has any power in our lives. Let’s pray for better year coming up, for the Lord desires that His people would live and walk in love, unified by Christ alone and His building of His church!

If history has taught us anything, it should be known that men like Lee aren’t some new recovery, nor is he the last one to think of this. It is a responsibility of everyone as a believer personally and not corporately to discern the difference, and unless it happens in your life you will be tossed by every single one of these kind of people. This is what they count on, and hope for! Don’t be a victim to their schemes, nor comply to their demands for obedience at the cost of ruining your conscience or life. The Lord is faithful, and can find a way even in the circumstances when you see none at the time!


…………………………………………………………………….

P.S

This story is based on the personal experience, and not some distortion of facts and events. Any alterations or attempts to “sanitize” it’s content in order to gain or change narrative is prohibited by its owner. However, it can be used as a testimony for anyone who is interested, without any limitations or copyright. Due to the hostility from the members of this movement, the author chooses to remain anonymous.

[ThankfulForever777]

Very nice story and accurate assessment of so called the "Lord's Recovery".

Luke 11:35's words from Jesus truly hit home: "See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness." This call for self-examination urges us to cling to a clear and truthful understanding of the God's Word.

For years, I believed I carried the light, only to realize last year that what I thought illuminated my path was, in fact, darkness. Fortunately, I found my way out of that metaphorical prairie house through a back window, finally stepping into the true light and freedom found in Jesus.

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Salty

There appears to be one constant that begins to develop: the pictures of the outside can no longer be seen on the inside.

Yes. Hypocrisy. (Matt 23)

Originally Posted by Salty

- You will not hear them acknowledge other churches in whatever town you live in as a church, and if you aren’t under the submission to the current apostolic mob, you town has no church.

Yes. Pharisaic seat of authority. (Matt 23)

Originally Posted by Salty

These men want something else, and that is to create a oneness based on their personal and private revelations, teachings and practices. This is what you call building another foundation, and no Christians should ever accept that as an olive branch to unity.

Yes. Men perverting the truth to gain a following. (Acts 20:30)

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Yes. Hypocrisy. (Matt 23)
Yes. Pharisaic seat of authority. (Matt 23)
Yes. Men perverting the truth to gain a following. (Acts 20:30)

And YES - These deeply insecure narcissistic men pervert the truth in an attempt to gain a sense of self-esteem through lording it over their followers, and by trashing everyone else on the outside. These evil wolves in sheep's clothing yearn to make a name for themselves by creating an earthly empire which God never endorsed.

P.S.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Salty

“THE FALSE TRUMPET STILL SOUNDS”. -
by a former member.


Another year gone, and another year without any positive changes in the world of the movement known as the Lords Recovery. As we are ready to step into the year 2024, with so many uncertainties surrounding our daily lives, for those of us who have unfortunately been connected to this group, know of one certainty: unless there is some great sign from the Lord and an eye opening experience occurs in the halls and hearts of those few men who lead this movement, they will continue to be on the war path with each and every one who beliefs or chooses to follow the Lords leading and get out from the yoke of men who usurped the headship of Christ, while installing themselves as the arbitrators of truth, faith and practice.

For the past 60 years or so, since this movement appeared on the horizon in the United States, the history of it is marred by some awful practices, treatment of people, false testimony against anyone and everyone who got up from the mat after being proverbially smacked in the face by these self appointed founders and their disciples. The pompous rhetoric that was heard loud and clear in the early stages of this movement, was the word from Lee, the unquestionable, intolerant founder of this “church”, stating that: “In 1962, I was commissioned by the Lord to sound the trumpet of His recovery in the United States.” (CWWL, 1977, vol. 1, "The Recovery of Christ in the Present Evil Age,")

This attitude of self serving and judgmental approach to “church planning”, is not some new recovery that the Lord decided to bring to this country. It’s not some great new hope, love and care for people that all of a sudden was dug up in in outer regions of the world to bring peace and life to those who are hurt. It was the same or worse strategy that the enemy has been using for centuries, cloaked in benevolent garment of enthusiasm, loud propositions, bold and scathing criticism of all prior men who walked on this land, doing and following the Lord for many many years. It’s a very simple strategy: divide & conquer!

As I peel back the curtain just a bit, from what appears on the outside of this new “recovery” as great looking house on the prairie, with beautifully synchronized paint colors, window treatments, architectural philosophy and even the carefully arranged, picked, well meaning greeters and recruiters that stay on the outside smiling and just looking for anyone who wants to get in. It’s kind of surreal, other worldly pietism that draws people to this movement, and in a lot of cases those people were hurt, mistreated, ideologically primed to have a false negative views of God, His people, and anything that’s associated with religious affiliations.

However that eye catching exterior is not all that beautiful once one chooses to enter this building, and although that initial impression of the outside could blind one for a while, and the smiles and careful words in the beginning stages of introductions and loud shouts of some victorious slang that kind of gives you a false sense of peace and care. “You haven’t seen anything yet “, - “it’s the best thing going”- you will be promised. “We are the Lords Recovery, it’s like you are back in the book of Acts again, isn’t that wonderful?”. “We don’t have any rules here at all, it’s just love. We don’t ever tell anyone what to do or say, we believe that each individual is led by the spirit and therefore is a valued member of the body of Christ”. You think to yourself that finally there is something different, maybe you will even get hopeful of changes in your life, so you just shove the feelings in your heart that kind of softly warns you: “If it’s sounds to good to be true, it most likely is”.

As the days, weeks, months and years tick away, and you kind of start waking up to the warning signs that start to appear, those same greeters and recruiters that probably by this time became your adopted parents, and slowly replaced your whole ecosystem that you had prior to entering this paradise. You start noticing that you can’t even handle any warnings from anyone besides those newly minted people in your live. You constantly are facing questions about your decisions, and being told that “Be careful, test, verify, pray before taking this new world into your heart”, but you no longer can have those people around you telling you that. You are told that those people are just “soulish, empty, haven’t seen the house on the prairie yet, or don’t have the eyes to see the reality!”

One day your caretakers out of their supposed love for you, told you that you must refrain from those people in your life. Most likely they are a stumbling block for your growth. They even gave you a book to read, saying “this will help you understand how and why they need to be cut off from your life”. Christ vs Religion child, and you need to take a side. Do you see this beautiful house on the outside? Do you see how it’s so wonderfully glorious? Why would you not want to look at it in amazement and shout in victory that you finally made it here? Isn’t that what you always wanted, hoped for, long for? The picture in your mind of those days back when you saw it, start playing with your emotions and your heart, so you just close your eyes, say amen, and do the deed as asked for the good of the body.

There appears to be one constant that begins to develop: the pictures of the outside can no longer be seen on the inside. The windows are covered with almost like blackout curtains. Those beautiful paint colors that drew you to it, become a bland, tasteless pain pills that you must take to go on another day. Those window treatments that looked amazing on the other side of the windows, block of the light, sun, fresh air and even the ability to see the beautiful house you are supposedly in. The architectural philosophy that looked good, now feels like a totalitarian occupation of your entire life. The over zealous shouts of “we have no rules here, and everyone is valuable”, changed to “you must die, be broken, follow a vision, don’t be this or that”. It’s like being in a horror movie while you are still alive, and the few select supposedly anointed, seem to be the only once who have access to something that you can’t have, literally just cutting your whole being apart, because according to them it’s been contaminated with whatever the flavor of the day is at a given time.

As you get further into it, you start realizing that the voice that you heard inside, and the people that were warning you, you should’ve paid more attention to. Frankly, you start seeing that those people actually who truly care for you, even though they were labeled a certain way by your superiors, those that like a broken record shout and hurdle insults at them on Sundays and every possible training or conference that you attend. They start to appear to you like a battery operated Halloween prop by the entry door of this once beautiful house, and have been programmed with deadly warnings if you decide to even consider to touch the door knob to exit;

-“There is no God working outside this house!”

-“You will die spiritually upon your exit from this paradise!

-“You need to be supplied by us for your life, otherwise you will suffer!”

-“You have no one that will care as much as we do!”

-“God will destroy you for leaving this, and not opening up or going forth with His move on earth!”

-“Satan has entered you, since you no longer can see how we are the God’s instruments and authority!”

-……..and it’s just keeps playing the tape of Lee and his disciples and their divisive spirit.

For over 60 years in this country, there have been many people who lived in this house on the prairie. They were deceived by the appearance, and eventually paid a great price for sometimes climbing out of the back window to escape. The Lords Recovery movement through many escapades and back door dealing, frivolous lawsuits and internal marketing and pure fear pressure, managed to make it thus far. They were able to change the public narrative in some circles, by having a cult label removed by a “Christian Institution”. They were able to shut down and silent many people who brought up their claims of superiority and hypocrisy. They were able to blend in now, just like another Christian group, and God forbid anyone says otherwise. They even now will point out to other churches and groups saying, “See, they all have problems”!

Nevertheless, that awful foundational premise that was laid by the founders of this movement will not and cannot be shed, because the whole structure will crumble to pieces. “The present evil” which is all those who are outside this group, must remain to be in place, otherwise those greeters and carefully picked recruiters will have no catchy lures out for their fishing expeditions. Even though they got their inclusiveness that they were so desperately seeking for decades from all other Christians, they themselves aren’t interested in giving up their exclusive move, ministry, special anointing hogwash that continues to permeate their hearts and lives.

- They still refuse to acknowledge and renounce the belligerent and militant spirit that upholds and plastered on the walls and hearts of those who run this institution.
- You will not see them join with other Christians for a whole town prayer, hold hands together with many believers who give their lives for the Lord daily.
- You will not hear them renounce the “we are THA Church” mantras, and you better get behind us in line, otherwise you are all whores of Babylon mixed with satan.
- You will not hear them acknowledge other churches in whatever town you live in as a church, and if you aren’t under the submission to the current apostolic mob, you town has no church. (https://shepherdingwords.com/genuine...r-independent/)
- You are the divisive ones if you choose to call them out on this, not them. You must come and offer “we were wrong” apologies, or else.
- You will never see them embrace or allow anyone but the founders of this institution to be viewed or heard as an equal members of the body of Christ. (See https://shepherdingwords.com/genuine...-new-covenant/ )
- You will still continue to see them post articles and content to deter everyone in their little movement, to avoid anyone and everyone who is not associated with LSM and it’s immediate followers. (See shepherdingwords.com for samples).
- They will still claim that they are the only people on earth that have recovered some truths that are closed and unavailable to all outsiders. (“Only in the Lord's recovery can one find books conveying real spiritual help, nourishment, and life.” CWWL, 1978, vol. 1, "The Present Need Among the Churches in the Lord's Recovery," )
- They will still claim that their move is some recovery of the lost “Christ”, and they will gain “ground”, including by trying to persuade other Christians to leave their churches and join them. (“The Lord's recovery is simply the recovery of Christ.” CWWL, 1978, vol. 3, "Crucial Elements of God's Economy,")
- …..and I could add another dozen of their claims. (Many available to read with their latest publications on the website provided above)

Well, Lee might have been successful to divide and conquer a lot of people in this country and elsewhere. What he calls degraded Christianity, which he was militant and labeled every evil label in a book has done what a true Christian should do, and thats to accept on bases of unity of faith in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately for Lee, it wasn’t what he was after, neither are his disciples. These men aren’t interested in that, because that would’ve eliminated Lee and them from the equation, and they would have to humble themselves as “just another servant of Christ”, and null and void their office of apostolic recovery. These men want something else, and that is to create a oneness based on their personal and private revelations, teachings and practices. This is what you call building another foundation, and no Christians should ever accept that as an olive branch to unity.

It’s another year added on to many many years of this so called recovery. The beat goes on, and they still sound the trumpet initially brought into this country by a men who thought of himself to be some specially commissioned to recover the “church” in the United States. The house on the prairie is still there, and the greeters and recruiters use the same lures to catch people who are primed, hurt, given up on God because of many thing that happened in their lifetime. They don’t know yet of the interior design, the back walls of this beautifully synchronized exterior paint, architectural philosophy and that those great looking window treatments will completely block out them from seeing the light for a while, or forever. Due to their hurts and previous life experiences, some will ignore the softly spoken voice that’s saying “it’s to good to be true”.

Just as it was done the first time around, not everything that is pleasant to our eye is good to partake, nor is the desire to experience something other worldly. Sometimes having a house on the end of the street with a bunch of imperfections, maybe a little worn and looking like no one lives there is a way to go. It’s what on the inside that should be attractive: warmth, love, care, and ability to see through the windows outside. It’s having a ray of sunlight illuminate your whole room to show you the dirty corners or cobwebs that are starting to form when there is lack of light and transparency. No one will need to tell you to clean up, because you will see it yourself, and maybe have the courage to take on a task rather than being dissected in life format. For those who have recovered from “recovery”, praise be to God who is able. But for those who still enjoy having a prop by the door for another year, please have fun and leave all of us who escaped through the back window enjoying the life outside. We are quite lucky, or blessed, but what’s more important: is that the foundational cornerstone on which we were hooked is gone. That divisive and militant ideology is no longer part of our lives, that spirit of exclusiveness is no longer has any power in our lives. Let’s pray for better year coming up, for the Lord desires that His people would live and walk in love, unified by Christ alone and His building of His church!

If history has taught us anything, it should be known that men like Lee aren’t some new recovery, nor is he the last one to think of this. It is a responsibility of everyone as a believer personally and not corporately to discern the difference, and unless it happens in your life you will be tossed by every single one of these kind of people. This is what they count on, and hope for! Don’t be a victim to their schemes, nor comply to their demands for obedience at the cost of ruining your conscience or life. The Lord is faithful, and can find a way even in the circumstances when you see none at the time!


…………………………………………………………………….

P.S

This story is based on the personal experience, and not some distortion of facts and events. Any alterations or attempts to “sanitize” it’s content in order to gain or change narrative is prohibited by its owner. However, it can be used as a testimony for anyone who is interested, without any limitations or copyright. Due to the hostility from the members of this movement, the author chooses to remain anonymous.

I definitely remember around 2006-2010 the speaking brothers used to constantly say "Don't ever leave the recovery. Leaving is dangerous. There have even been instances of members dying after leaving. It's all downhill after you leave." Seriously they said this, which is crazy to think about. Telling someone they'll die by the hand of God if they leave and implying that leaving is the same as rebelling is really cult like. They have even said many times that if you rebel against the leadership you are risking your life. Crazy thing to say

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jay

I definitely remember around 2006-2010 the speaking brothers used to constantly say "Don't ever leave the recovery. Leaving is dangerous. There have even been instances of members dying after leaving. It's all downhill after you leave." Seriously they said this, which is crazy to think about.

Some time back one of the leading brothers in my region left his wife. She had to go meet in another location. I saw her come into our meeting, sitting alone at the side. She hadn't done anything wrong that anyone could (or would) tell, but the husband didn't want to be with her any more, and that was that for her.

Nothing happened to the husband. He was very rich, financially supported the local church. (If you were connected in his local church you got to ride in his boat.) So the wife got shunned. I'm pretty sure he got an upgrade, too - a younger companion. (I was mostly gone by then)

Then one day, while touring his factory, a machine blew up and killed him. I heard, "There has been a terrible accident." Nothing of God's retribution on a man who abandoned his wife. Nothing either of Satan's attack. No, it was a terrible accident. To see this group compartmentalise reality is incredible. How they can pull it off, is beyond me. But they do.

[Jay]

"Well, Lee might have been successful to divide and conquer a lot of people in this country and elsewhere. What he calls degraded Christianity, which he was militant and labeled every evil label in a book has done what a true Christian should do, and thats to accept on bases of unity of faith in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately for Lee, it wasn’t what he was after, neither are his disciples. These men aren’t interested in that, because that would’ve eliminated Lee and them from the equation, and they would have to humble themselves as “just another servant of Christ”, and null and void their office of apostolic recovery. These men want something else, and that is to create a oneness based on their personal and private revelations, teachings and practices. This is what you call building another foundation, and no Christians should ever accept that as an olive branch to unity."

Or you could argue that they had impetus to separate themselves from degradation. If God wants a holy separated people and modern Christianity is sectarian and based on the satanic inspired denominations, which are splinter groups, or divisions, then it makes sense to go back to the original way of meeting as God intended in the book of Acts, the Epistles, and the book of Deuteronomy chapter 12 verse 11


Which I definitely agree with Nee and Lee that that's what God wants. Where I disagree with Lee is in his constant bashing of degraded Christianity, which was used as a rallying point to "hype up the troops" so to speak to make themselves feel special. Those in the local churches are not special per se, they are just as much sinners as anyone else, and the Christians not within the local church sphere are just as much brothers and sisters as anyone else. What I have as problem with is the prevailing belief that those in the recovery have that they actually ARE more special than other believers, and this type of attitude makes them cult like, whether they realize it or not. They probably don't realize it. But it's this kind of homogenous thinking and speaking that they hold surrounding these mantras and maxims that they use which aren't really Biblical in nature. To claim that you're better or more blessed or more special than others and continue to talk like that is not in the least bit biblical. These same members will turn around and pray fervently for the furtherance of the gospel and the furtherance of the local church's. Which is very contradictory to their bashing the denominations

[Jay]

*sorry for posting this twice. I was trying to figure out how to use quotes and I don't know how to delete a post yet*




"Well, Lee might have been successful to divide and conquer a lot of people in this country and elsewhere. What he calls degraded Christianity, which he was militant and labeled every evil label in a book has done what a true Christian should do, and thats to accept on bases of unity of faith in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately for Lee, it wasn’t what he was after, neither are his disciples. These men aren’t interested in that, because that would’ve eliminated Lee and them from the equation, and they would have to humble themselves as “just another servant of Christ”, and null and void their office of apostolic recovery. These men want something else, and that is to create a oneness based on their personal and private revelations, teachings and practices. This is what you call building another foundation, and no Christians should ever accept that as an olive branch to unity."

Or you could argue that they had impetus to separate themselves from degradation. If God wants a holy separated people and modern Christianity is sectarian and based on the satanic inspired denominations, which are splinter groups, or divisions, then it makes sense to go back to the original way of meeting as God intended in the book of Acts, the Epistles, and the book of Deuteronomy chapter 12 verse 11


Which I definitely agree with Nee and Lee that that's what God wants. Where I disagree with Lee is in his constant bashing of degraded Christianity, which was used as a rallying point to "hype up the troops" so to speak to make themselves feel special. Those in the local churches are not special per se, they are just as much sinners as anyone else, and the Christians not within the local church sphere are just as much brothers and sisters as anyone else. What I have as problem with is the prevailing belief that those in the recovery have that they actually ARE more special than other believers, and this type of attitude makes them cult like, whether they realize it or not. They probably don't realize it. But it's this kind of homogenous thinking and speaking that they hold surrounding these mantras and maxims that they use which aren't really Biblical in nature. To claim that you're better or more blessed or more special than others and continue to talk like that is not in the least bit biblical. These same members will turn around and pray fervently for the furtherance of the gospel and the furtherance of the local church's. Which is very contradictory to their bashing the denominations

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jay

...you could argue that they had impetus to separate themselves from degradation. If God wants a holy separated people and modern Christianity is sectarian and based on the satanic inspired denominations, which are splinter groups, or divisions, then it makes sense to go back to the original way of meeting as God intended in the book of Acts, the Epistles, and the book of Deuteronomy chapter 12 verse 1

The problem is that nobody separates themselves from degradation. Only Jesus Christ is separated from degradation. If you could separate from degradation, you wouldn't need the blood of the Lamb.

Instead you got compartmentalised hypocrisy, with innuendo, snide remarks, guffaws, winks and nods, and code words about how everyone else was hopelessly defective. You got to hear about Degraded Group A, Degradation B, Fallen Group C, Satanic group D, Darkened Christian Group E. None of them were "proper" or "pure". But if anyone points out the (many and glaring) problems in Lee's Recovery group, well, hey, nobody's perfect, right? Christianity was "too, too poor" with Easter and Christmas while the Oracle's son was bullying local elders and pawing the church help. (but that was the Business Office of the Publisher and WL's private business)

Or, David and Solomon as types of Christ with the many lovers and wives being pictures of a loving Corporate Christ, the Body. Then next you'd hear that David and Solomon were fallen lustful men taking multiple wives. Or D & S as types of Christ - "Behold the Chosen One, God's Anointed" and next thing they were fallen human beings trying to be good, vainly writing of obedience. Nobody is good, said WL, not one. (But Christ was good, and Christ was one).

Or, David smiting Goliath with a rock, a type of the Fighting Warrior Christ defeating Satan. Samuel chopping up Agag as utter dedication and purity. Then, a psalm of deprecation against enemies and the interpretation flips - that it is that it's fallen, natural, because David was supposed to bless, not curse (serious, I read the footnotes). And on and on. Amateur hour. Yet nobody in the audience says anything, because you don't say anything but 'amen' when Big Brother speaks. Must be 'one' with the speaking, no matter how it varies.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem is that nobody separates themselves from degradation. Only Jesus Christ is separated from degradation. If you could separate from degradation, you wouldn't need the blood of the Lamb.

Instead you got compartmentalised hypocrisy, with innuendo, snide remarks, guffaws, winks and nods, and code words about how everyone else was hopelessly defective. You got to hear about Degraded Group A, Degradation B, Fallen Group C, Satanic group D, Darkened Christian Group E. None of them were "proper" or "pure". But if anyone points out the (many and glaring) problems in Lee's Recovery group, well, hey, nobody's perfect, right? Christianity was "too, too poor" with Easter and Christmas while the Oracle's son was bullying local elders and pawing the church help. (but that was the Business Office of the Publisher and WL's private business)

Or, David and Solomon as types of Christ with the many lovers and wives being pictures of a loving Corporate Christ, the Body. Then next you'd hear that David and Solomon were fallen lustful men taking multiple wives. Or D & S as types of Christ - "Behold the Chosen One, God's Anointed" and next thing they were fallen human beings trying to be good, vainly writing of obedience. Nobody is good, said WL, not one. (But Christ was good, and Christ was one).

Or, David smiting Goliath with a rock, a type of the Fighting Warrior Christ defeating Satan. Samuel chopping up Agag as utter dedication and purity. Then, a psalm of deprecation against enemies and the interpretation flips - that it is that it's fallen, natural, because David was supposed to bless, not curse (serious, I read the footnotes). And on and on. Amateur hour. Yet nobody in the audience says anything, because you don't say anything but 'amen' when Big Brother speaks. Must be 'one' with the speaking, no matter how it varies.

Well, some of what you're saying is true and faulty with Lee's congruency. And some of the things you're saying is actually a problem with the Bible being paradoxical. It's true that at times David and Solomon were shining spiritual brothers, and then it's also true that at other times they were fleshy and degraded and sinning heavily. Both of those things are true and paradoxical. And they're also true of us, and apparently even Nee and Lee. It's an interesting juxtaposition but we have to admit that we are sinners just like David and Solomon. Maybe we sin differently than them, but we do sin

It's very hard for me to critique negatively Lee's stellar interpretation of the word. Which is far and away better than anything else out there that I've read aside from Nee's stellar interpretation of the word. I can't knock that at all. The footnotes are astounding and just chock full of light and spiritual knowledge. The only thing we could say is that Nee and Lee had "cheat sheets" in that they had extensive personal libraries filled with spiritual books and writings from spiritual people in the past that they of course borrowed many of their doctrines from. But I also think God did reveal a great deal to them that had never before been uncovered. I mean Watchman Nee wrote The Spiritual Man I think when he was 26 years old maybe, maybe younger I forget. But that's incredible any way you slice it

I do agree though of Lee's hypocrisy when it comes to dissing the denominations and excusing the behavior in the recovery. Although again, I agree that he is objectively correct about his assessments on the denominations. The problem is how often and how harsh he would get into it, and like you said, he would excuse the bad behavior of his son and whatever else in the recovery that they ignored at the same time

[Jay]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem is that nobody separates themselves from degradation. Only Jesus Christ is separated from degradation. If you could separate from degradation, you wouldn't need the blood of the Lamb.

Instead you got compartmentalised hypocrisy, with innuendo, snide remarks, guffaws, winks and nods, and code words about how everyone else was hopelessly defective. You got to hear about Degraded Group A, Degradation B, Fallen Group C, Satanic group D, Darkened Christian Group E. None of them were "proper" or "pure". But if anyone points out the (many and glaring) problems in Lee's Recovery group, well, hey, nobody's perfect, right? Christianity was "too, too poor" with Easter and Christmas while the Oracle's son was bullying local elders and pawing the church help. (but that was the Business Office of the Publisher and WL's private business)

Or, David and Solomon as types of Christ with the many lovers and wives being pictures of a loving Corporate Christ, the Body. Then next you'd hear that David and Solomon were fallen lustful men taking multiple wives. Or D & S as types of Christ - "Behold the Chosen One, God's Anointed" and next thing they were fallen human beings trying to be good, vainly writing of obedience. Nobody is good, said WL, not one. (But Christ was good, and Christ was one).

Or, David smiting Goliath with a rock, a type of the Fighting Warrior Christ defeating Satan. Samuel chopping up Agag as utter dedication and purity. Then, a psalm of deprecation against enemies and the interpretation flips - that it is that it's fallen, natural, because David was supposed to bless, not curse (serious, I read the footnotes). And on and on. Amateur hour. Yet nobody in the audience says anything, because you don't say anything but 'amen' when Big Brother speaks. Must be 'one' with the speaking, no matter how it varies.

Well we're talking about degradation in the sense of meeting. In a sense we are all degraded in our fallen state, that is true. But as far as practice and function within a church there are certainly levels or a spectrum of degradation. Christians are always "church hopping" to find one that suits their ideals, and during their shopping they might find one church that seems more worldly or dark than others. That is an example of a spectrum of degradation. The church's spiritual condition can fluctuate as well. One year a church may be full of light and the next it may have a lot of problems that cause darkness. This is similar to an organism. It's all complicated and nuanced. But it makes sense when you think about. I would classify the denominations in a different category because they are in foundation stemming from division starting with the Catholic church, we can see satan's hand in this from the beginning

So if Nee made a move back to the original purpose of the church I would stand behind it. It's a foundation that make sense, hence the term 'recovery'

However if they are being so exclusive as to not accept other members that's a different story. But I don't think they do that. I do think however they are judgmental of those in the denominations. They might technically accept them but they hold judgments as well. Which I think stem from Lee's poor example of always dissing the denominations. This invariably comes out in the way they interact with those in Christianity

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

Well, some of what you're saying is true and faulty with Lee's congruency. And some of the things you're saying is actually a problem with the Bible being paradoxical. It's true that at times David and Solomon were shining spiritual brothers, and then it's also true that at other times they were fleshy and degraded and sinning heavily. Both of those things are true and paradoxical. And they're also true of us, and apparently even Nee and Lee. It's an interesting juxtaposition but we have to admit that we are sinners just like David and Solomon. Maybe we sin differently than them, but we do sin

It's very hard for me to critique negatively Lee's stellar interpretation of the word. Which is far and away better than anything else out there that I've read aside from Nee's stellar interpretation of the word. I can't knock that at all. The footnotes are astounding and just chock full of light and spiritual knowledge. The only thing we could say is that Nee and Lee had "cheat sheets" in that they had extensive personal libraries filled with spiritual books and writings from spiritual people in the past that they of course borrowed many of their doctrines from. But I also think God did reveal a great deal to them that had never before been uncovered. I mean Watchman Nee wrote The Spiritual Man I think when he was 26 years old maybe, maybe younger I forget. But that's incredible any way you slice it

Jay, you are right about the “cheat sheets” of extensive libraries Née and Lee had. Regarding Nee’s book “The Spiritual Man,” we have since learned that he copied profusely from Jessie Penn-Lewis’ writings without attribution, which like the former president of Harvard, is commonly called plagiarism.

Currently I am reading Robert Govett on The Apocalypse, a scholarly and monumental work of the 19th century on the final book of Scripture. Having attended both of WL’s Revelation Trainings in Anaheim back in 1976, I heard repeatedly that “for the first time this book has been recovered and its riches unveiled to us.” Now I learn that WL took most of his “revelation” from the very book I am now reading almost 50 years later.

Who knew that Claudine Gay and Witness Lee had so much in common?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, you are right about the “cheat sheets” of extensive libraries Née and Lee had. Regarding Nee’s book “The Spiritual Man,” we have since learned that he copied profusely from Jessie Penn-Lewis’ writings without attribution, which like the former president of Harvard, is commonly called plagiarism.

Currently I am reading Robert Govett on The Apocalypse, a scholarly and monumental work of the 19th century on the final book of Scripture. Having attended both of WL’s Revelation Trainings in Anaheim back in 1976, I heard repeatedly that “for the first time this book has been recovered and its riches unveiled to us.” Now I learn that WL took most of his “revelation” from the very book I am now reading almost 50 years later.

Who knew that Claudine Gay and Witness Lee had so much in common?

Yeah it's interesting. A lot of the books I'm sure are probably not well known amongst mainstream Christians and may be more obscure titles and authors that as the years pass get more and more buried. So it would be very difficult to go and look for them, actually find them, and then read through them to prove that Nee/Lee plagiarized their works

However on the other hand I have read Nee and Lee give credit to other authors quite a few times. And I have read them both admitting that they gained a lot of knowledge from other Christian speakers/writers. So in a sense we could say that Nee/Lee DID in fact give credit and did not fully take all the credit for themselves

But by all means if you have factual examples of Lee taking credit when in fact he borrowed a concept then that is valid as well, and part and parcel with his assuming a type of headship over the local churches. If in fact he was poisoned by his own position then it would make sense for him to claim things that actually weren't his

But just to be fair I have read them both saying that they "stood on the shoulders" of many prominent Christians before them and the truths that those Christians uncovered and gave to the body. So they do deserve credit for at least saying that much

Originally Posted by Jay

Or you could argue that they had impetus to separate themselves from degradation. If God wants a holy separated people and modern Christianity is sectarian and based on the satanic inspired denominations, which are splinter groups, or divisions, then it makes sense to go back to the original way of meeting as God intended in the book of Acts, the Epistles, and the book of Deuteronomy chapter 12 verse 11

As someone who has spent many years in “Lords Recovery”, I found them to be no different in any shape or from the many sects who attempted this kind of separation as you call it. There is nothing there that resembles the book of Acts church as they claim, even the name “Lords Recovery” is antithetical to everything that the Bible says about the church. It goes against the words of Jesus in Matthew when He said “I will build my church”. These men claimed that the church was lost and defeated, that is a unforgivable offense against God and a total lie that this whole movement is built on.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

Yeah it's interesting. A lot of the books I'm sure are probably not well known amongst mainstream Christians and may be more obscure titles and authors that as the years pass get more and more buried. So it would be very difficult to go and look for them, actually find them, and then read through them to prove that Nee/Lee plagiarized their works

However on the other hand I have read Nee and Lee give credit to other authors quite a few times. And I have read them both admitting that they gained a lot of knowledge from other Christian speakers/writers. So in a sense we could say that Nee/Lee DID in fact give credit and did not fully take all the credit for themselves

But by all means if you have factual examples of Lee taking credit when in fact he borrowed a concept then that is valid as well, and part and parcel with his assuming a type of headship over the local churches. If in fact he was poisoned by his own position then it would make sense for him to claim things that actually weren't his

But just to be fair I have read them both saying that they "stood on the shoulders" of many prominent Christians before them and the truths that those Christians uncovered and gave to the body. So they do deserve credit for at least saying that much

Reminds me of when the Lord rebuked the Jewish leaders, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets." Matt 23.29-31

Of course, WL and WN told us that they "stand on the shoulders" of those who went before them. Those dear ones were all dead and buried. How easy it is now to take all their goods as your own. Did not the Jews do the same, claiming they would never have partaken of all those past sins committed by their forefathers. Balderdash!

Actions always speak louder than words. Has not the Lord Himself sent prophets to the leaders at LSM? Have they not rebuked WL and the Blendeds for their corruption? Yet those at LSM condemned every one, both from within and without the Recovery. Those at LSM listen to no one God has sent to them. This forum is filled with their stories.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jay

One year a church may be full of light and the next it may have a lot of problems that cause darkness.

The idea of being full of light is subjective. Things that I once thought were full of light have now been shown to be not so. I thought that I was in a church full of great teaching & occasionally poor behaviour. Now I see how much bad was there, it was the norm not the exception. I was just conditioned to receive it. Just like a baby will eat whatever the parents produce, without discernment.

Not suggesting that Jay is wrong or lacks discernment but that subjectiveassessments may change over time. Mine did.

Originally Posted by Jay

I would classify the denominations in a different category because they are in foundation stemming from division starting with the Catholics.

History is surprisingly subjective as well. You and I may have different views based on the history that we've read. Each author has some bias. My reading shows division starting centuries before the Catholics.

At one point the Christian faith, in a highly unified & coordinated fashion, covered the Levant. Islam did not yet exist. Egypt was a Christian country. Persia (today's Iran). Libya. Ethiopia. Turkey (the provinces of Asia, Anatolia etc). Lebanon & Syria. Macedonia. Today's Iraq, plus Armenia, Greece, Italy, outreaches going to Europe & India...

So what happened? They divided. Read about the Council of Chalcedon & you may see what I did. The East/West schism was a furtherance of something long in the making. And if Christian leaders had held together there never would have been an Islam. It rose in a vacuum.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As someone who has spent many years in “Lords Recovery”, I found them to be no different in any shape or from the many sects who attempted this kind of separation as you call it. There is nothing there that resembles the book of Acts church as they claim, even the name “Lords Recovery” is antithetical to everything that the Bible says about the church. It goes against the words of Jesus in Matthew when He said “I will build my church”. These men claimed that the church was lost and defeated, that is a unforgivable offense against God and a total lie that this whole movement is built on.

Maybe it's semantics. I always figured they called it "the Lord's recovery" not as an official title, but like a nickname or something. If you think about what they mean by that term it makes total sense. If something was lost then when it's recovered you can call that "recovery." I never felt that was any kind of official name or title, but rather just a general descriptive term. However on the other hand I guess you could argue that they use the term so much it may as well be a title or a name. Hard to say, but in title they just refer to themselves as "the church in such and such city." If pressed on it they would probably tell you exactly what I just said here. Or they might say something like "the local churches are founded by Living Stream Ministry, which is just the LLC business title we have to give in order to register with the state government"

The church collective is all the believers. But if we're talking about denominations then the term changes to a designator for a specific building. This is very much semantics. However the distinction is actually very important. Church just means the gathering of the called out ones in whatever city they happen to reside in. So TECHNICALLY wherever ANY believers gather is the church so to speak. But what Nee/Lee meant was how the splinter groups, sects, and denominations became degraded. Which objectively I have to agree, they did. And I believe this was the divide and conquer tactics of satan

I haven't spent a great amount of time in my life visiting other churches, but I've been a few times and for sure there is a difference in behavior, truth, function, and how they meet. Absolutely nothing is like the local churches from what I've seen and experienced. Who else calls on the name of the Lord? Who else meets from home to home in such a organized way? Who else has the collective truths that the local church's have? No one as far as I can tell. If anything many pastors today borrow heavily from Nee/Lee without giving them credit

[Jay]

Originally Posted by aron

The idea of being full of light is subjective. Things that I once thought were full of light have now been shown to be not so. I thought that I was in a church full of great teaching & occasionally poor behaviour. Now I see how much bad was there, it was the norm not the exception. I was just conditioned to receive it. Just like a baby will eat whatever the parents produce, without discernment.

Not suggesting that Jay is wrong or lacks discernment but that subjectiveassessments may change over time. Mine did.

History is surprisingly subjective as well. You and I may have different views based on the history that we've read. Each author has some bias. My reading shows division starting centuries before the Catholics.

At one point the Christian faith, in a highly unified & coordinated fashion, covered the Levant. Islam did not yet exist. Egypt was a Christian country. Persia (today's Iran). Libya. Ethiopia. Turkey (the provinces of Asia, Anatolia etc). Lebanon & Syria. Macedonia. Today's Iraq, plus Armenia, Greece, Italy, outreaches going to Europe & India...

So what happened? They divided. Read about the Council of Chalcedon & you may see what I did. The East/West schism was a furtherance of something long in the making. And if Christian leaders had held together there never would have been an Islam. It rose in a vacuum.

Centuries before the Catholics there was no church. Catholicism started in the first century. satan was fast to start dividing the body

Islam is just a counterfeit of the Old Testament. Just a distraction from satan. But God knew it would happen from Ishmael. Apparently it was his will

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

Centuries before the Catholics there was no church. Catholicism started in the first century. satan was fast to start dividing the body

Islam is just a counterfeit of the Old Testament. Just a distraction from satan. But God knew it would happen from Ishmael. Apparently it was his will

Not sure what you mean by “Catholicism started in the first century.”

Can you explain, or is this a play on words?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure what you mean by “Catholicism started in the first century.”

Can you explain, or is this a play on words?

My mistake I meant to say the third century, with Constantine. When he married the church to the state and mixed the world with what God wanted seperated. At least as far as a lot of stuff I've read indicates that's when Catholicism became "official." But there's other theories that there were popes dating back to Peter. Although there's no Biblical indication that Peter ever considered himself a pope. If the early churches and brothers were very close to God which is seems they absolutely were, then I can't see any impetus for establishing a clergy. I haven't studied this thoroughly but I bet you will only find the concept of eldership, deacons, and helpers (administration) in the early churches. Brother Lee talks against clergy-laity and I absolutely agree with him when he talked about it. The clergy-laity does kill the function of the average member. To some extent I've seen this happen in the local churches, but I don't know enough to really say for sure

But even that is weird because it seems that the eldership is a coveted position within the churches, and unfortunately from what it looks like they are a special class of church members. In fact from my experience they don't really seem like "slaves" like brother Lee spoke about. But that's just my opinion from my experience. The ones that I've been around certainly posses leadership qualities, but people in the world do too. That never impressed me. I would think they need qualities such as mercy, love, ability to shepherd, ability to listen etc. to qualify. Not just have good public speaking skills and ability to run a local church office. But all that is beyond my knowledge and training. I suppose it's up to God what goes on in the affairs of his house

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

My mistake I meant to say the third century, with Constantine. When he married the church to the state and mixed the world with what God wanted seperated. At least as far as a lot of stuff I've read indicates that's when Catholicism became "official." But there's other theories that there were popes dating back to Peter. Although there's no Biblical indication that Peter ever considered himself a pope. If the early churches and brothers were very close to God which is seems they absolutely were, then I can't see any impetus for establishing a clergy. I haven't studied this thoroughly but I bet you will only find the concept of eldership, deacons, and helpers (administration) in the early churches. Brother Lee talks against clergy-laity and I absolutely agree with him when he talked about it. The clergy-laity does kill the function of the average member. To some extent I've seen this happen in the local churches, but I don't know enough to really say for sure

But even that is weird because it seems that the eldership is a coveted position within the churches, and unfortunately from what it looks like they are a special class of church members. In fact from my experience they don't really seem like "slaves" like brother Lee spoke about. But that's just my opinion from my experience. The ones that I've been around certainly posses leadership qualities, but people in the world do too. That never impressed me. I would think they need qualities such as mercy, love, ability to shepherd, ability to listen etc. to qualify. Not just have good public speaking skills and ability to run a local church office. But all that is beyond my knowledge and training. I suppose it's up to God what goes on in the affairs of his house

I found WL’s contradictions on this matter unbearable. He spoke against hierarchy regularly yet he created a hierarchy far worse than most churches. He created this “bogey-man” called the clergy-laity system, yet it was the apostles that established elders, deacons, evangelists, prophets, teachers, pastors, etc in the church. If the Lord never intended to have clergy and laity, then why did the apostles establish them.

There is no evidence that the deeds of the “Nicolaitans” referred to these ecclesiastical offices. I believe they should refer to “lording it over the saints” which is mentioned often in the N.T. I saw far more “lording it over” in the LC and LSM than I ever saw outside of the Recovery.

Corruption and abuse within the Recovery leadership goes on unchecked for decades because of this false teaching of “covering the brothers.” The Bible teaches, however, that sinning elders should be publicly reproved that all may learn.

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I found WL’s contradictions on this matter unbearable. He spoke against hierarchy regularly yet he created a hierarchy far worse than most churches.

Yes. This is absolutely the situation in the LR. One word "hypocrisy."

Originally Posted by Ohio

He created this “bogey-man” called the clergy-laity system, yet it was the apostles that established elders, deacons, evangelists, prophets, teachers, pastors, etc in the church. If the Lord never intended to have clergy and laity, then why did the apostles establish them.

Those gifts (evangelists, prophets, teachers, pastors, etc) operative in the church is not appointed (established) by the apostles, but GIVEN through the Head of the body (Eph 4:11).

Certainly the Lord never intended for there to be a "clergy-laity" set up in His church (Matt 23:8-10).

Rank and hierarchy kills the church. History proves this.

Originally Posted by Jay

Maybe it's semantics. I always figured they called it "the Lord's recovery" not as an official title, but like a nickname or something. If you think about what they mean by that term it makes total sense.

I guess you can choose to rationalize this lie as much as you desire, just to somehow make it more palatable for those who consume it, I bet every church thats in town which WL trashed and degraded would not take it as semantics. They all can say “Grace Bible church” for example is just a name for legal documents and purposes, but by then, Lee already nullified their existence.

Who else calls on the name of the Lord? Who else meets from home to home in such a organized way? Who else has the collective truths that the local church's have? No one as far as I can tell. If anything many pastors today borrow heavily from Nee/Lee without giving them credit

Maybe if you actually do some studies on the church history (outside of what’s written by the false trumpets, as it was perfectly put here), you will find that the reason no one else does these practices and holds these beliefs, is because you don’t NEEd them, and should deLEEte them from your life. Just IMHO.
Thanks

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I guess you can choose to rationalize this lie as much as you desire, just to somehow make it more palatable for those who consume it, I bet every church thats in town which WL trashed and degraded would not take it as semantics. They all can say “Grace Bible church” for example is just a name for legal documents and purposes, but by then, Lee already nullified their existence.


Thanks

The difference is that 'Grace Bible church' is the official title of their building and their name. When those in the LC say 'The Lord's recovery' or the 'Local churches' they are not implying that those are official names or titles. So it absolutely is semantics and in this case semantics matter greatly

As far as I know from meeting with the LC my whole life there is no official name or title of the local churches. They are simply just 'The church in such and such city'

If I'm in San Fransisco it's 'The church in San Fransisco.' If I'm in Madison Wisconsin, then it's just 'The church in Madison'

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

The difference is that 'Grace Bible church' is the official title of their building and their name. When those in the LC say 'The Lord's recovery' or the 'Local churches' they are not implying that those are official names or titles. So it absolutely is semantics and in this case semantics matter greatly

As far as I know from meeting with the LC my whole life there is no official name or title of the local churches. They are simply just 'The church in such and such city'

If I'm in San Fransisco it's 'The church in San Fransisco.' If I'm in Madison Wisconsin, then it's just 'The church in Madison'

I can testify that my locality most certainly implied that this was their official name, even if they said otherwise. The following mindset/attitude is something that many others from various localities have also expressed concern about. It is both semantics and pragmatics that Witness Lee abuses in order to sow confusion and discord, instilling that classic "us vs. them" mentality that often is the first red flag for observers who start getting those "cult" vibes.

When I was first taught about Lee's concept of a "local church," I was excited at the thought that everyone in a city could be considered part of the same church. When I expressed this excitement to my mentor, he gave me a weird look and laughed at the thought. It was clear that while they still like to say that "they're our brothers and sisters, too," they do not truly consider them part of their locality.

This was further expressed in the way many leading brothers and many of the older ones spoke of other cities that did not have one of Lee's local churches. Despite the presence of multiple churches, they would lament the fact that "there is no church in that city." Despite the fact that thousands of believers, thousands of saints, were living in those cities, they moaned about “there were only a handful of saints in that city.”

This can be seen even in the language that is used in Lee’s publications to the Local Churches. Lee clearly wanted to distinguish his group from the rest, and it shows in his attitude and words as well as the attitudes and words of many who are now leading brothers, elders, and regional/national leaders in this group. Despite the fact that many try to act like this group doesn't have a name, it certainly does, and, as with all names, it starts off with an idea.

Everything starts off as an idea, but it is clear that this group has built their entire identity around this idea and has rallied around this to define who they are as a people. They aren’t simply Christians, they are the Local Churches. It is essential to who they believe they are. They aren’t simply believers, they are believers in The Lord’s Recovery, which requires one to follow a very specific set of teachings and practices that are easily distinguishable from all the other denominations. If you don’t ascribe to what they teach and practice, you are not in The Lord’s Recovery. If you do not meet as they do, you are not called a Local Church.

The cherry on top of all this is the fact that their names, “The Church in [City Name]” are most certainly official. They are real, legal, official names that they file with their local governments and use to divide themselves from all the others who “don’t’ meet on the ground of oneness” as if picking a particular name is all the Lord requires of us to truly live properly by the spirit and operate as a proper assembly. These names, along with the official name of “The Local Churches” also show up on their lawsuits because they wish to distinguish themselves from every other assembly in their city who does not abide by the doctrines and practices of The Local Churches (The Lord’s Recovery). They even tried to use the court system to acquire Jim Moran's website which used either "The Lord's Recovery" or "The Local Churches" as its name. They argued that it was a name they used first and that him using it too would confuse people. Quite a bit of effort for a name they don't officially have, no? Eventually, Jim passed away and they succeeded in acquiring his site and deleting his articles which spoke against them, but not before some wise soul archived Jim's testimony.

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Jay

The difference is that 'Grace Bible church' is the official title of their building and their name. When those in the LC say 'The Lord's recovery' or the 'Local churches' they are not implying that those are official names or titles. So it absolutely is semantics and in this case semantics matter greatly

Sorry, there is no difference. Actually the claim that the Lord's Recovery is not a name but a descriptor for God's move among His people is a wonderful window into the deep hypocrisy imbedded in the "Local Churches". Of course the 'Lord's Recovery' denotes the particular group (denomination) of people under the authority of Living Stream Ministry.

Would you also not ascribe Living Stream Ministry as an 'offficial title' attached to the Lord's Recovery either?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Sorry, there is no difference. Actually the claim that the Lord's Recovery is not a name but a descriptor for God's move among His people is a wonderful window into the deep hypocrisy imbedded in the "Local Churches". Of course the 'Lord's Recovery' denotes the particular group (denomination) of people under the authority of Living Stream Ministry.

Would you also not ascribe Living Stream Ministry as an 'offficial title' attached to the Lord's Recovery either?

As far as I know and understand LSM is the business name they have to give to the government to open a church. That's not the official name that those in the LC go by though. There is definitely a difference

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Jay

As far as I know and understand LSM is the business name they have to give to the government to open a church. That's not the official name that those in the LC go by though. There is definitely a difference

I wonder what name Jesus gave to the goverment to 'open His church'.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

I wonder what name Jesus gave to the goverment to 'open His church'.

Welp, you can't operate a church without buying buildings and possibly land. I suppose they could have just met in each other houses though. But I guess with that logic you'd have to say ALL churches that have a registered LLC are not doing what Jesus did. So should we all tear down all the church businesses and just all start meeting in each other's homes?

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Jay

... So should we all tear down all the church businesses and just all start meeting in each other's homes?

sounds like Witness Lee.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

sounds like Witness Lee.

Ok, but what do you think is the best way?

Originally Posted by Jay

Ok, but what do you think is the best way?

The best way?
How about identifying the true church and true believers by what Bible asks us to identify by?
How about identifying the believers by what’s actually written, and not what is assumed by these men who claimed wild things?
How about stopping making business from the name of Jesus and God, and continue to bring divisions and strife?
How about truly pursuing the gifts of the spirit and the fruits of the spirit and identifying with those that do as a true church?
How about dropping this whole apostolic succession altogether and becoming a servants and not dictators?
Could you please show a singe verse in New Testament where believers made business from what the Lord gave them? Like LSM did and continue to do.

It’s too much to ask for those who’s foundation is based on division and self glorification like those two men that invented this movement. Their fruit is rotten and there is no gifts or care for people in that environment. It’s all about deception and recruiting people into some visions of men, that has no power or ability to change lives of people. It’s powerless, dead and destructive!

You obviously want to recognize them as some special gifts and some seers. It is not until you actually check their claims and ideologies vs 2000 years of historical evidence to know that they are just pretenders that Bible warns us to watch out for on many occasions!

Originally Posted by Ohio

I found WL’s contradictions on this matter unbearable. He spoke against hierarchy regularly yet he created a hierarchy far worse than most churches. He created this “bogey-man” called the clergy-laity system, yet it was the apostles that established elders, deacons, evangelists, prophets, teachers, pastors, etc in the church. If the Lord never intended to have clergy and laity, then why did the apostles establish them.

There is no evidence that the deeds of the “Nicolaitans” referred to these ecclesiastical offices. I believe they should refer to “lording it over the saints” which is mentioned often in the N.T. I saw far more “lording it over” in the LC and LSM than I ever saw outside of the Recovery.

Corruption and abuse within the Recovery leadership goes on unchecked for decades because of this false teaching of “covering the brothers.” The Bible teaches, however, that sinning elders should be publicly reproved that all may learn.

Ohio,

I think that there is a perfect description of these men written by Jude. However, Lee probably would say he wasn’t up to date with Gods move therefore his description of men like LC apostles only applies to those who question the motives and practices of Lords Recovery. But I’ll just remind them what is written to the believers and how to recognize those who do what this crew is doing.

Jude 1:16-19
These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of their own benefit. But you, beloved, must remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, not having the Spirit.

SPOKEN BEFOREHAND, is a key to being able to discern and know who is real and who is fake.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Salty

The best way?
How about identifying the true church and true believers by what Bible asks us to identify by?
How about identifying the believers by what’s actually written, and not what is assumed by these men who claimed wild things?
How about stopping making business from the name of Jesus and God, and continue to bring divisions and strife?
How about truly pursuing the gifts of the spirit and the fruits of the spirit and identifying with those that do as a true church?
How about dropping this whole apostolic succession altogether and becoming a servants and not dictators?
Could you please show a singe verse in New Testament where believers made business from what the Lord gave them? Like LSM did and continue to do.

It’s too much to ask for those who’s foundation is based on division and self glorification like those two men that invented this movement. Their fruit is rotten and there is no gifts or care for people in that environment. It’s all about deception and recruiting people into some visions of men, that has no power or ability to change lives of people. It’s powerless, dead and destructive!

You obviously want to recognize them as some special gifts and some seers. It is not until you actually check their claims and ideologies vs 2000 years of historical evidence to know that they are just pretenders that Bible warns us to watch out for on many occasions!

If it's as you say and we'll know them by their fruit then I can't at all agree with what you're saying. I've been around local church members for much of my life. There absolutely is wonderful fruit in the LC. Wonderful God loving members who absolutely exercise their spirit and show fruits of love and care

Now are they short in some areas? I believe so. Are Nee and Lee perfect? Nope. In fact I've been having lots of conversations surrounding Lee's major faults that brought in a lot of damage to the churches. Some of his sins are almost as serious and damaging as king David's major sins, almost. So let's not throw out the baby with the bath water

I do absolutely believe God wanted to use Nee and Lee to uncover deeper truths about the word. If they plagiarized some of their works, ok at least they have mentioned on occasions that they borrowed many thoughts from others, and at least these deeper truths have been consolidated in such a way that they can reach a lot of people. In fact Bibles for America, Bibles for Europe, Bibles for South America, Bibles for Africa, etc. are all wonderful channels of supply that is right now going out to the entire world. So God is winning either way. Regardless of Nee and Lee's major faults God still used them

I cannot argue against their theology and doctrine. As far as I can tell it's virtually impenetrable from criticism due to it being wholly biblical. There are some things that I can slightly pick apart, such as Nee's view of delegated authority and positional authority. Some concepts he has regarding this are not really that fair, but then I'd say maybe it's God's way that's not that fair. I'd be more apt to critique God himself and his own doings in the word (particularly the old testament in many instances) than I could critique Nee or Lee

However when it comes to their supposed delegated authority, and how they handled certain major problems in the church and in their personal lives I see major faults

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Ohio,

I think that there is a perfect description of these men written by Jude. However, Lee probably would say he wasn’t up to date with Gods move therefore his description of men like LC apostles only applies to those who question the motives and practices of Lords Recovery. But I’ll just remind them what is written to the believers and how to recognize those who do what this crew is doing.

Jude 1:16-19
These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of their own benefit. But you, beloved, must remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, not having the Spirit.

SPOKEN BEFOREHAND, is a key to being able to discern and know who is real and who is fake.

Yes, books like Jude and James, which supposedly “lacked the vision of God’s Economy,” were among the most damning of the Recovery system of error.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Jay

I'd be more apt to critique God himself and his own doings in the word (particularly the old testament in many instances) than I could critique Nee or Lee

I had to do a double-take on this one. .......Then I remembered that I probably held the same exact attitude back about 30 years ago.

Most sensible, mature Christians would tell you that this kind of attitude is totally backwards, and even quite dangerous. And the most dangerous thing of all is that our friend Jay does not even realize how dangerous this kind of attitude is. I am reminded of the stern warning in Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (of course this is in the Old Testament, so I don't know how seriously Jay will take this one)
-

[Jay]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I had to do a double-take on this one. .......Then I remembered that I probably held the same exact attitude back about 30 years ago.

Most sensible, mature Christians would tell you that this kind of attitude is totally backwards, and even quite dangerous. And the most dangerous thing of all is that our friend Jay does not even realize how dangerous this kind of attitude is. I am reminded of the stern warning in Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (of course this is in the Old Testament, so I don't know how seriously Jay will take this one)
-

I agree that being haughty before God is a dangerous thing. It's a double edged sword. To me fear and love are mostly diametrically opposed. It's hard for me to love someone whom I fear the reprurcussions from. Particularly if I don't feel the feared/loved party is worthy. There's a lot of questionable stuff that God has done. If God is a person like us then why would I fear him in a debilitating sense? If he is correct then I can agree with his correctness. But if there's some questionable stuff then just like Lee's leadership, it should be hashed out and sorted

To imply that I have a haughty spirit is not unfair in this context. I know what you mean. But I also don't think I'm like that per se. If I was corrected I could accept it

I don't agree that God would allow certain leaders to continue after certain major errors they made. That type of "lifelong delegated authority" seems wrong and unrighteous. I talked to a Christian about this the other day, and that Christian said that what it comes down to is not how wrong the leader is, but it matters about their heart. The reason why God disposed of Saul, and not David, was because Saul didn't have a heart to love God, but David did. Same concept we see with Jacob and Esau. God loved Jacob but hated Esau, not because of their right or wrong behavior, but simply because Jacob had a heart for God

That doesn't sit right with me if we're applying the concept to leadership. Whether you have a heart for God or not, if you mess up in a major way and it harms others in the Church, I have a hard time agreeing that you should keep your position. To me this seems unfair of God. But then on the other hand, I'm a sinner, maybe my sins are not as large as others, but I still have sinned. And God didn't dispose of me. I suppose maybe that's a theological problem that can just go around and around because all humans are sinners and God has yet to come in and dispose of all humans who are sinners. But with that said I just feel that leadership should be held to a higher standard of conduct, particularly if they are revered for their position. You can't on the one hand receive honor for your position, but on the other hand receive complete clemency for your major errors in that position. That just doesn't mix like oil and water. But it seems that's what's going on. Is it God who is fostering that? If so then I have a problem with God. I don't believe that's haughty, I believe that's rational. But I'm also open for correction if I have a mistaken concept

There are other glaring problems with God's ordination that I have that I don't know can be rectified. One is his creating females as less than men. The other is his allowing satan to be in the garden, which was a major part of his plan. I have issues with those things. Call me haughty if you like, I just rationally struggle with knowing why he intentionally did things that brought in incalculable amounts of harm to the creation he supposedly loves

[Zezima]

God’s love for you is not conditional. Whether you have a heart to love him or not.

Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I'd be more apt to critique God himself and his own doings in the word (particularly the old testament in many instances) than I could critique Nee or Lee

Nothing like seeing a finite created being, who is dependent on its Creator, questioning an infinite uncreated God. But then again, when you follow the godmen regimen prescribed by the self appointed and self anointed men, you eventually start viewing and acting as a creature has become the ultimate object of worship. Same in life and nature and in essence is an ultimate slippery slope to total destruction!

We have such example in scriptures, and for everyone who has followed it, we know the outcome. God helps us all!

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Nothing like seeing a finite created being, who is dependent on its Creator, questioning an infinite uncreated God. But then again, when you follow the godmen regimen prescribed by the self appointed and self anointed men, you eventually start viewing and acting as a creature has become the ultimate object of worship. Same in life and nature and in essence is an ultimate slippery slope to total destruction!

We have such example in scriptures, and for everyone who has followed it, we know the outcome. God helps us all!

"I don't feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with a sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use" -Galileo

If I have doubts about things should I hide those and tell my mind to forget them? Or should God himself quell my doubts with the very reason he endowed upon me to have them in the first place. If God is love, then he needs to win my love, and my love isn't blind

If you say God is infallible then show me, don't just tell me. You accuse the LC brothers of the same behavior you are exhibiting towards me right now

Originally Posted by Jay

"I don't feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with a sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use" -Galileo

If I have doubts about things should I hide those and tell my mind to forget them? Or should God himself quell my doubts with the very reason he endowed upon me to have them in the first place. If God is love, then he needs to win my love, and my love isn't blind

If you say God is infallible then show me, don't just tell me. You accuse the LC brothers of the same behavior you are exhibiting towards me right now

I rest my case, I’m not part of this forum. But I just tell you this: you have raised two men that you worship above reproach, and even would go as far as questioning God before considering to question a fallen men like Nee and Lee. As much as it hurts me to say this, I would suggest you pray for some light to shine into your life. Those men that you are defending and upholding as some special people, have little to nothing to offer to the genuine body of Christ.

I’ve read plenty of your posts here, and unfortunately it’s just sound like a DCP rep pedaling snake oil for anything who will partake of it.

God’s love was blind BTW, when he died on that tree. He had no preference, but whosoever believed would be saved! Just think about that! He doesn’t need to win anything, He already won!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

….

There are other glaring problems with God's ordination that I have that I don't know can be rectified. One is his creating females as less than men. The other is his allowing satan to be in the garden, which was a major part of his plan. I have issues with those things. Call me haughty if you like, I just rationally struggle with knowing why he intentionally did things that brought in incalculable amounts of harm to the creation he supposedly loves

Wow! All these years of Nee/Lee “ministry/worship” have produced the fruit of questioning God’s wisdom and doubting his love. “Haughty” doesn’t come close to covering those thoughts. Where is your faith? Who do you trust?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

NET Bible
Isa. 45:9 One who argues with his creator is in grave danger, one who is like a mere shard among the other shards on the ground! The clay should not say to the potter, "What in the world are you doing? Your work lacks skill!"

Then there’s this:
Job 38:4-13
4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you know. …

I interpret verses like these as God saying to his creation, something like “Who do you think you are?”

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

This has certainly been an interesting week on the forum, to say the least. The deconstruction of Lee's teachings is no small feat, not least because of his marked use of eisegesis based on a handful of verses out of context. When someone has their foundational understanding of biblical teachings based first and foremost on this manner of biblical interpretation which makes little to no proper use of scripture, it is rather difficult to use scriptural context to break down those kinds of ideas. After all, someone else figured out the scriptures for you, so why should you have to? Someone else already did all the studies, so why do we need to? Why should I present anything but a handful of verses I read through a straw since it has so readily been prepared for me in this ministry? What need is there to really test the scriptural soundness of Lee's ideas?


Jay, I would like to second the idea that you use more and more scripture and less and less Lee in order to present your ideas. Remember the context of the verses. Consider the culture and history of the times they were written. It seems often times you simply repeat the slogans and pre-made sentences from "the ministry" that we were all told to memorize in The Lord's Recovery, and it simply won't get you very far here. I'm quite interested in reading "The Economy of God' by Witness Lee once more thanks to this discussion. It was the first book of his that I was introduced to, so I imagine it is one of the most sanitized of Lee's publications if my mentors were so bold as to introduce it to a college freshman who had never before heard of the denomination known as The Lord's Recovery. I imagine after everything I've learned regarding Lee's dangerous interpretations of the scriptures that I won't be so enraptured as I once was. Nonetheless, I feel it is only fair to methodically test this "gateway drug" teaching of Lee's and see how it holds up.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I rest my case, I’m not part of this forum. But I just tell you this: you have raised two men that you worship above reproach, and even would go as far as questioning God before considering to question a fallen men like Nee and Lee. As much as it hurts me to say this, I would suggest you pray for some light to shine into your life. Those men that you are defending and upholding as some special people, have little to nothing to offer to the genuine body of Christ.

I’ve read plenty of your posts here, and unfortunately it’s just sound like a DCP rep pedaling snake oil for anything who will partake of it.

God’s love was blind BTW, when he died on that tree. He had no preference, but whosoever believed would be saved! Just think about that! He doesn’t need to win anything, He already won!

I never said they were above reproach. You are misunderstanding my point. The point I am making is that if Nee and Lee are going by the Bible then you have a problem with the Bible and not Nee and Lee. The question is are they really going by the Bible or are they somehow in error about the Bible?

At any rate I don't think you're reading everything I'm writing before reacting. Or you're just not reading what I'm saying very carefully. In fact I am saying that the leadership should be under the most scrutiny. I literally said this in my last post in this thread-

I don't agree that God would allow certain leaders to continue after certain major errors they made. That type of "lifelong delegated authority" seems wrong and unrighteous. I talked to a Christian about this the other day, and that Christian said that what it comes down to is not how wrong the leader is, but it matters about their heart. The reason why God disposed of Saul, and not David, was because Saul didn't have a heart to love God, but David did. Same concept we see with Jacob and Esau. God loved Jacob but hated Esau, not because of their right or wrong behavior, but simply because Jacob had a heart for God

That doesn't sit right with me if we're applying the concept to leadership. Whether you have a heart for God or not, if you mess up in a major way and it harms others in the Church, I have a hard time agreeing that you should keep your position. To me this seems unfair of God. But then on the other hand, I'm a sinner, maybe my sins are not as large as others, but I still have sinned. And God didn't dispose of me. I suppose maybe that's a theological problem that can just go around and around because all humans are sinners and God has yet to come in and dispose of all humans who are sinners. But with that said I just feel that leadership should be held to a higher standard of conduct, particularly if they are revered for their position. You can't on the one hand receive honor for your position, but on the other hand receive complete clemency for your major errors in that position. That just doesn't mix like oil and water. But it seems that's what's going on. Is it God who is fostering that? If so then I have a problem with God. I don't believe that's haughty, I believe that's rational. But I'm also open for correction if I have a mistaken concept

How you get that I'm putting Nee and Lee above reproach is beyond me. Then you say that God's love is blind in the same post that you say leaders shouldn't be above reproach. I think you're very confused about a lot of things here and you're definitely misunderstanding what I'm saying and I don't think what I'm saying is very hard to grasp

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Wow! All these years of Nee/Lee “ministry/worship” have produced the fruit of questioning God’s wisdom and doubting his love. “Haughty” doesn’t come close to covering those thoughts. Where is your faith? Who do you trust?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

NET Bible
Isa. 45:9 One who argues with his creator is in grave danger, one who is like a mere shard among the other shards on the ground! The clay should not say to the potter, "What in the world are you doing? Your work lacks skill!"

Then there’s this:
Job 38:4-13
4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you know. …

I interpret verses like these as God saying to his creation, something like “Who do you think you are?”

Nell

To tie that into Nee and Lee is not fair or accurate. I don't believe they caused me to doubt God or question things about the word. I did that on my own

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

To tie that into Nee and Lee is not fair or accurate. I don't believe they caused me to doubt God or question things about the word. I did that on my own

Believe it. At least begin to consider the possibility. Where do you think the doubts and questions came from? A steady diet of anything “spiritual” that produces doubts about God himself is certainly not spiritually healthy. You need to consider all possibilities. Remember, God has an enemy.

If “the ministry” was all it claims to be, you should be growing and flourishing, shouldn’t you? Yet here you are, openly questioning God and doubting His love. Something is not right here. Logically, making this connection to all spiritual matters is totally fair and accurate. How can it not be?

You didn’t get here “on your own”. You had help. We were taught not to ask questions. Why? If Nee/Lee teachings were based in God’s truth, these teachings would prevail over all questions, wouldn’t they?

God is a big boy. He can take questions and doubts. He won’t zap us like the Local Church leadership did/does. He won’t blame or shame us, making us believe the questions, etc. are our own fault. He was questioned to the death, and was found without guile.

We were robbed of a relationship with God. They don’t teach that. They teach a relationship with the elders. This is not right.

The Nee/Lee Doctrines and teachings are two men’s interpretations of the word. That’s all. We are not bound by this. Substituting Nee/Lee teachings for a living and life changing walk with God is the real bondage and tragedy of the Local Church…for the membership and leadership.

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

We were robbed of a relationship with God. They don’t teach that. They teach a relationship with the elders. This is not right

Nell

This isn't true. The bulk of Nee and Lee's writings are how to have a relationship with the Lord. If you don't think so I question whether or not you actually read Nee or Lee at length. Or if you just search for things to criticize them and confirm your biases. Which is what atheists do when they read the Bible

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

. Where do you think the doubts and questions came from?

Nell

I already told you

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

This isn't true. The bulk of Nee and Lee's writings are how to have a relationship with the Lord. If you don't think so I question whether or not you actually read Nee or Lee at length. Or if you just search for things to criticize them and confirm your biases. Which is what atheists do when they read the Bible

Not true. The bulk of Nee/Lee writings are about their grandiose, wordy visions about what God is “doing”, with themselves at the center as minister of the age. I sat through many of Lee’s conferences and trainings, in person. I listened to message after message, delivered locally, which were about Lee’s interpretations of the word. I heard many of Lee’s teachings before the LSM scrubbed and printed the message. I haven’t read much Nee.

Finally, I understood. Lee’s later ministry began to contradict the truth he had originally shared. This helped me find the door.

In many cases the verses read before the meeting, and now the printed messages, had little to nothing to do with Lee’s actual message. His main point was usually that we were totally dependent on him, Lee, to understand the Bible…so don’t bother reading it for yourself.

BTW, We are not on this forum not having read Nee and Lee. I question whether you actually hear what you may have read of Lee. Weak move to play the bias and atheist cards, Especially when your bias dominates your conflicted remarks.

You are seriously conflicted about staying with the “church” yourself. You acknowledge the obvious sin in the camp yet condone this behavior. Your attempts to confirm your own bias is staggering. Yet here you are.

Lee’s “ministry” can be reduced to “do as I say, not as I do”.

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Not true. The bulk of Nee/Lee writings are about their grandiose, wordy visions about what God is “doing”, with themselves at the center as minister of the age. I sat through many of Lee’s conferences and trainings, in person. I listened to message after message, delivered locally, which were about Lee’s interpretations of the word. I heard many of Lee’s teachings before the LSM scrubbed and printed the message. I haven’t read much Nee.

Finally, I understood. Lee’s later ministry began to contradict the truth he had originally shared. This helped me find the door.

In many cases the verses read before the meeting, and now the printed messages, had little to nothing to do with Lee’s actual message. His main point was usually that we were totally dependent on him, Lee, to understand the Bible…so don’t bother reading it for yourself.

BTW, We are not on this forum not having read Nee and Lee. I question whether you actually hear what you may have read of Lee. Weak move to play the bias and atheist cards, Especially when your bias dominates your conflicted remarks.

You are seriously conflicted about staying with the “church” yourself. You acknowledge the obvious sin in the camp yet condone this behavior. Your attempts to confirm your own bias is staggering. Yet here you are.

Lee’s “ministry” can be reduced to “do as I say, not as I do”.

Nell

It's possible you're older than me and your experience being in actual meetings with Lee is very different than mine, which is never seeing him in person and only hearing his messages on tape or on youtube. I was born into the recovery but left when I was about 12 until I was 18 when I came back. I missed a lot of problems that you all talk about. So most of what I'm learning is in retrospect from other member's testimonies

So it's possible that he said things and portrayed himself in a very different way when you sat under him as opposed to the scrubbed, filtered, and edited version of what the LSM bookroom actually published and put out

But from that perspective they have done a good job of removing any trace of what you're saying from his message publications. Because when I came back at 18 I immediately started reading Nee and Lee. Their ministry is for sure unique and insofar as the publications are concerned nothing else is really like it

I will say though, that certain things they leave out, that other ministries add in. To help your case I'll say that when it comes to the MOTA thing, granted I haven't read much of Nee or Lee talking about this, but I do recall Lee talking about it and not saying it but alluding to him being the MOTA. I've read that before in not so many words. And recently I read this, which is a fantastic description of their being no class and distinctions in the church- https://gewatkins.net/what-about-chu...-distinctions/

So to prop yourself up as the head guy while simultaneously pretending that your not is very duplicitous I'll give you that. But it doesn't erase all of their other ministry, which is very wonderful and unique by and large. As I've stated elsewhere much of it may have been borrowed from other spiritual men throughout history which would for sure detract away from Nee and Lee's authenticity, particularly if some claim they were God's oracle. Hard to be God's oracle if you're borrowing all of your doctrine and theology from someone else. But who can really say what they did and didn't borrow? You'd have to be a historian or an archeologist to figure that out

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

It's possible you're older than me and your experience being in actual meetings with Lee is very different than mine, which is never seeing him in person and only hearing his messages on tape or on youtube. I was born into the recovery but left when I was about 12 until I was 18 when I came back. I missed a lot of problems that you all talk about. So most of what I'm learning is in retrospect from other member's testimonies

So it's possible that he said things and portrayed himself in a very different way when you sat under him as opposed to the scrubbed, filtered, and edited version of what the LSM bookroom actually published and put out

But from that perspective they have done a good job of removing any trace of what you're saying from his message publications. Because when I came back at 18 I immediately started reading Nee and Lee. Their ministry is for sure unique and insofar as the publications are concerned nothing else is really like it

I will say though, that certain things they leave out, that other ministries add in. To help your case I'll say that when it comes to the MOTA thing, granted I haven't read much of Nee or Lee talking about this, but I do recall Lee talking about it and not saying it but alluding to him being the MOTA. I've read that before in not so many words. And recently I read this, which is a fantastic description of their being no class and distinctions in the church- https://gewatkins.net/what-about-chu...-distinctions/

So to prop yourself up as the head guy while simultaneously pretending that your not is very duplicitous I'll give you that. But it doesn't erase all of their other ministry, which is very wonderful and unique by and large. As I've stated elsewhere much of it may have been borrowed from other spiritual men throughout history which would for sure detract away from Nee and Lee's authenticity, particularly if some claim they were God's oracle. Hard to be God's oracle if you're borrowing all of your doctrine and theology from someone else. But who can really say what they did and didn't borrow? You'd have to be a historian or an archeologist to figure that out

When I first really got into reading Nee, is when the alarm bells started going off. When Watchman Nee was saying did not coincide what I was seeing in Bellevue and the local churches in general. There was a disconnect.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I'm quite interested in reading "The Economy of God' by Witness Lee once more thanks to this discussion. It was the first book of his that I was introduced to, so I imagine it is one of the most sanitized of Lee's publications if my mentors were so bold as to introduce it to a college freshman who had never before heard of the denomination known as The Lord's Recovery.

I had heard, but not delved into further the book known as 'The Economy of God" was based on Witness Lee's notes from a T.A. Sparks message.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

When I first really got into reading Nee, is when the alarm bells started going off. When Watchman Nee was saying did not coincide what I was seeing in Bellevue and the local churches in general. There was a disconnect.

Yeah, I tried sending you a dm to respond to yours but it wouldn't let me do it at first. So I went to your profile and tried to send an email message to you. Let me know if it got to you or not

But yeah I have quite a few negative experiences with the leading brothers in Bellevue and that's kind of when I first started experiencing what I view now as a improper leadership clique amongst the "high ranking" brothers. I'm sure it's elsewhere though too. I'm sure in other localities these problems are happening with brothers who think they're in a higher position than others

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I'm quite interested in reading "The Economy of God' by Witness Lee once more thanks to this discussion. It was the first book of his that I was introduced to, so I imagine it is one of the most sanitized of Lee's publications if my mentors were so bold as to introduce it to a college freshman who had never before heard of the denomination known as The Lord's Recovery. I imagine after everything I've learned regarding Lee's dangerous interpretations of the scriptures that I won't be so enraptured as I once was. Nonetheless, I feel it is only fair to methodically test this "gateway drug" teaching of Lee's and see how it holds up.

I think they have young people read that book not because it's the "most sanitized version" of Lee's writings, but because it's more or less the central theme of local church doctrine. And as I've argued before, it's basically the central theme of the entire Bible

With that said, they like to focus on the economy of God above all else for definite reasons; 1 Timothy 1:4 being the central reason. I understand it. It makes sense. Some would call that culty behavior, but it make sense when you think about it. It's simply just to focus on Christ himself and the experience of Christ, both personal and corporate. It makes sense when you understand it

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

I think they have young people read that book not because it's the "most sanitized version" of Lee's writings, but because it's more or less the central theme of local church doctrine. And as I've argued before, it's basically the central theme of the entire Bible

With that said, they like to focus on the economy of God above all else for definite reasons; 1 Timothy 1:4 being the central reason. I understand it. It makes sense. Some would call that culty behavior, but it make sense when you think about it. It's simply just to focus on Christ himself and the experience of Christ, both personal and corporate. It makes sense when you understand it

But they tend to forget the “context” of that verse on “God’s Economy.”

But the goal of our instruction is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and an unhypocritical faith. - I Timothy 1.5

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But they tend to forget the “context” of that verse on “God’s Economy.”

But the goal of our instruction is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and an unhypocritical faith. - I Timothy 1.5

maybe. I guess if ones are just going through the motions then it's hard to be genuine in your faith. if everyone is just trying to be conformed to church life culture then how could they really exhibit Christ who is free from human conventions?

I really miss seeing ones free in the life of Christ and expressing the spirit. what I see a lot now is this kind of performance. it could be because Anaheim, the blendeds, and the training center is exercising a type of control over the corporate behavior of the body. I actually somewhat loathe going to meetings in a certain sense because I don't feel at ease to just go and enjoy the Lord. I feel this latent pressure to conform. Which is kind of what happens in homogenous groups and cults. you feel pressure to behave, think, and act in ways that are acceptable to entire group. which kills personal uniqueness and personal autonomy. how could people really enjoy Christ if they feel they have to conform to the filter of whatever perceived mores and norms are acceptable?

My mom used to say "well you go and be the change there," but I could never do it. I just got swallowed up and disenfranchised by their judgments against me

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Jay

This isn't true. The bulk of Nee and Lee's writings are how to have a relationship with the Lord. If you don't think so I question whether or not you actually read Nee or Lee at length. Or if you just search for things to criticize them and confirm your biases. Which is what atheists do when they read the Bible

I kind of can relate how Nell feels about this. In a lot of their speaking and practices, relationship with God is not emphasized. Its kind of loss in the technical complexity of Lee's teachings and practices (a topic for another discussion). They don't even use the word relationship. They kind of belittle the word. They use the word fellowship instead. Lee's emphasizes that relationship with God is never broken but the fellowship is, which I understand.

In their practice and speaking, they have over used the word fellowship to the point that its real meaning is no longer felt. Just another buzzword. This is my experience in my locality. I know this because if their relationship with the Lord is proper, they won't have the problems they have created for themselves.

I recall in one of the prophesying meetings (during 2021), I shared how the word relationship is not used in our church life culture, but replaced with the word fellowship. But in everyday language, when people ask or talk about relationships, they imply how well you know each other, how well you get on, how well you understand each other, how well you communicate with each other, the quality of your relationship, etc. We have forgotten normal everyday language and are full of jargons and buzzwords that only the trained one think they can decode.

My closing point was to remind the saints the importance of our personal relationship with the Lord and NOT to forget the meaning of word relationship and NOT to replace it with the word fellowship and using it like a buzzword. I got a strong genuine amen for making this point from a senior brother in the meeting.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I kind of can relate how Nell feels about this. In a lot of their speaking and practices, relationship with God is not emphasized. Its kind of loss in the technical complexity of Lee's teachings and practices (a topic for another discussion). They don't even use the word relationship. They kind of belittle the word. They use the word fellowship instead. Lee's emphasizes that relationship with God is never broken but the fellowship is, which I understand.

In their practice and speaking, they have over used the word fellowship to the point that its real meaning is no longer felt. Just another buzzword. This is my experience in my locality. I know this because if their relationship with the Lord is proper, they won't have the problems they have created for themselves.

I recall in one of the prophesying meetings (during 2021), I shared how the word relationship is not used in our church life culture, but replaced with the word fellowship. But in everyday language, when people ask or talk about relationships, they imply how well you know each other, how well you get on, how well you understand each other, how well you communicate with each other, the quality of your relationship, etc. We have forgotten normal everyday language and are full of jargons and buzzwords that only the trained one think they can decode.

My closing point was to remind the saints the importance of our personal relationship with the Lord and NOT to forget the meaning of word relationship and NOT to replace it with the word fellowship and using it like a buzzword. I got a strong genuine amen for making this point from a senior brother in the meeting.

That's a solid point. But maybe semantics also. Maybe splitting hairs idk. I suppose having a relationship with God would include fellowship, which would be just talking to him and telling him everything. In fact I read a passage recently by Watchman Nee that said something along the lines of we just need to talk to God like we would a regular person and tell him everything

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I got a strong genuine amen for making this point from a senior brother in the meeting.

I forgot about what it was like to have this feeling. The “amen” meter if you will.

Originally Posted by Jay

IT'S VERY HARD FOR ME TO CRITIQUE negatively Lee's stellar interpretation of the word. Which is far and away better than anything else out there that I've read aside from Nee's stellar interpretation of the word. I CAN'T KNOCK THAT AT ALL. The footnotes are astounding and just chock full of light and spiritual knowledge. The only thing we could say is that Nee and Lee had "cheat sheets" in that they had extensive personal libraries filled with spiritual books and writings from spiritual people in the past that they of course borrowed many of their doctrines from. But I also think God did reveal a great deal to them that had never before been uncovered. I mean Watchman Nee wrote The Spiritual Man I think when he was 26 years old maybe, maybe younger I forget. But that's incredible any way you slice it

Brother Jay,

Hi, there's a thread on this forum dedicated to FAIRLY critiquing the teachings of Witness Lee. They are written by a scholar from the Church in Toronto called Nigel Tomes. His chief reference text is the Bible and he uses Scripture in a BALANCED way to interrogate and examine many of the pet theories promoted by 'The Ministry' and which you may have been programmed to accept as 'truth' right from when you were a toddler. Try him out.

There is another thread on this forum dedicated to looking at what both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee wrote at different points in their careers. The thread highlights the discrepancies, the inconsistencies, and the glaring contradictions in the body of their work and begs the question of how such things can arise coming from one and the same pen. The thread is called 'Early Nee,Later Nee' (ditto for Lee). You might want to take a look.

I have found that when you fill your mind with the Word of God as it is, that is, the form it is in, and that took thousands of years to put together in that form- uninterpreted -by no less than God himself in the person of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit personally sheds his light on the Scriptures and reveals the gems in them to you. The Scriptures, I've come to be convinced, cannot be read meaningfully any other way. They can only be read and appreciated properly through the light God shines on them through your heart.

This can often be a slow and laborious process, but it is like sipping a rare, and sweet, red wine. It is pleasant. Some people, on the other hand, read the Bible like it's a reference text book. But I am utterly persuaded that it's only through 'light shining in our hearts' (2 Cor 4) that it's secrets are yielded up. An additional benefit of this process, incidentally, is that you develop an innate capacity to properly discern and evaluate the output of others, and in the process weigh their true spiritual value. Not pridefully or boastfully, but just like how a creature in the wild learns to discriminate between what to keep away from and what's good to eat. It doesn't need a PhD to gain that knowledge. It is humble knowledge.

In stark contrast, unfortunately, I often hear about how intellectually gifted Watchman Nee was. He supposedly had a soaring intellect and an unequalled IQ, the saints like to boast. Because of this, it is claimed, God singled him out for the special task of sorting through the thousands of books written since the time of Christ, to put it all together, and to come up with a workable worldview appropriate for the desperate needs of the Church in the Twentieth Century. God could trust him to do that. Because he was that clever.

I've heard of tales where it's reported that Watchman Nee would lock himself in a room for months on end with all his books denying his eyes sleep as he read and scrutinized every word on every page of every book written by the old masters and prophets as he sought to work out the will of God. Wow!

Witness Lee, on the other hand, and I stand to be corrected, all I've read him say about himself is that the teachings 'he' recovered were as a direct result of, and I quote, "...of his more than seventy years of [careful] study of the Bible". It is then left open to us to interpret that, in turn, due to his numerous years of eye-dimming and sacrificial study resulting in his epoch-defining retrieval of 'stellar truths' heretofore hidden for millenia (unearthed by him ALONE, he was always careful to emphasize) God then deemed it appropriate to reward this tireless servant with the title of the Minister of the Age, his very own representative, nay, his very own deputy, on all the earth. A classic case of the cart before the horse, methinks.

The other day I attempted to retackle Watchman Nee's 'The Spiritual Man'. Yes, he quotes the Bible substantially and endeavors to support his arguments with a variety of verses, but sadly (or not) the spell has lifted. I am no longer enthralled as I once was. My own personal verdict on this publication so far (and for now it is MY OWN unofficial assessment, so please don't get your knickers into a twist) is that it is MISLEADING. Even the author himself intimated that immature readers should stay away from this book. But given that he was only 26 years old when he wrote it I have not completely "cancelled" Watchman Nee. I still appreciate the first few chapters of his 'Normal Christian Life'.

As for Witness Lee, it took me years to deprogramme off him. And I am not anxious to be caught in that net again. I was blissfully unaware of just how subtle and penetrating the influence of his ministry had been. And so I know that to exit that system and that mindset it is only through the grace of God. Like a recovering addict, I generally steer clear, though on the rare occasion I do consult their Gold Bar Recovery Version but only out of curiosity, otherwise to me those voluminous footnotes read like an Organic Chemistry textbook.

The sad irony is, though, that it is extraordinarily difficult and it takes a while before you discover - if ever - saints that are just as singleminded in their focus and pursuit of the truth (..."for I bear them record that they have a zeal for God..."), even after shedding the initial, inescapable hoity-toity, holier-than-thou attitude that you don't realize you have and that you take everywhere with you like a bad smell. But it does indeed appear to be accurate that most churches are infiltrated by the World and the World system, albeit in varying degrees. Witness Lee nailed that. But maybe hammered a bit too hard.

Okay Jay, that's all I had.
God's blessings.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Humble Bricklayer

Hi, there's a thread on this forum dedicated to FAIRLY critiquing the teachings of Witness Lee

can you post a link to which one it is please? I'll search the names though. I'm interested in this

There is another thread on this forum dedicated to looking at what both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee wrote at different points in their careers. The thread highlights the discrepancies, the inconsistencies, and the glaring contradictions in the body of their work and begs the question of how such things can arise coming from one and the same pen. The thread is called 'Early Nee,Later Nee' (ditto for Lee). You might want to take a look.

That's very interesting I'll take a look. I suppose when a preacher uses dangerous and polarizing maxims in their sermons and not just strictly the thought in the Bible, it could give way for glaring contradiction. Some of the things I'm learning about these contradictions are silly, and some of them are dangerous. But I am learning, thank you for the suggestions like this

Btw thank you for your well thought out response in general. I appreciate someone not simply attacking me outright or trying to disparage and bully me into not speaking my mind and my truth on things as I see it. Healthy discourse should not be tampered with if the truth is the goal

I have found that when you fill your mind with the Word of God as it is, that is, the form it is in, and that took thousands of years to put together in that form- uninterpreted -by no less than God himself in the person of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit personally sheds his light on the Scriptures and reveals the gems in them to you. The Scriptures, I've come to be convinced, cannot be read meaningfully any other way. They can only be read and appreciated properly through the light God shines on them through your heart.

I appreciate this thought and I understand this sentiment very much. I do agree that God surely does speak to us often through his word. I experience this quite a bit in my personal walk. I also experience a similar joy and touch with God through reading the Hymnal and enjoying singing a song or two. I have also enjoyed God very much throughout my life in meetings with the LC. And I also will say that I believe that while I do agree fully that God speaks to us through his word, I also know that I've learned from Nee and Lee tremendously over the years, particularly through Lee's footnotes, which have helped me tremendously. I'm sure this will likely get deleted by the moderators because it doesn't fit their narrative, but it's my truth. I believe that a balance of learning and reading and praying and pray reading and meditating on the word are all helpful and necessary. I absolutely couldn't understand the Bible as well as I do if I hadn't read Nee and Lee, and in particular the footnotes in the recovery version. As others have said I'm sure that all of their doctrine is not direct revelation and they borrowed heavily over their lifetimes. But nonetheless I have benefited greatly from them and I'm certain that I wouldn't have got that benefit anywhere else, from anyone else, and as concise and consolidated from anyone else. For that I am grateful

Some people, on the other hand, read the Bible like it's a reference text book. But I am utterly persuaded that it's only through 'light shining in our hearts' (2 Cor 4) that it's secrets are yielded up. An additional benefit of this process, incidentally, is that you develop an innate capacity to properly discern and evaluate the output of others, and in the process weigh their true spiritual value. Not pridefully or boastfully, but just like how a creature in the wild learns to discriminate between what to keep away from and what's good to eat. It doesn't need a PhD to gain that knowledge. It is humble knowledge.

I see your point here, but I don't quite fully agree. I think knowledge can bring light and vice versa. I don't want to fret either way, I enjoy reading the footnotes and they help me tremendously in my learning and understanding of the word. A problem arises though if one were to use them INSTEAD of spiritual inspiration or use them only and ignore other methods of contacting the Lord. Which I'm sure can and does happen, and I myself have fallen into that from time to time. We should always check our life level as a general guide. But I don't think by any means it's implied that those in the recovery should do that. I don't get any impression that the footnotes supersede the word, or spiritual inspiration. I simply have always understood them as a tool to help understand the word better, and for that they work wonderfully

I think to understand the output of others we need lots of experiences and different viewpoints. Anyone who is trying to squash freedom of speech, critical thinking, and accountability is not a friend of learning and growth. That goes for LSM and anyone else who would try to delete or hide the truth and try to muzzle people who speak it

I have learned a great deal from people's testimonies

In stark contrast, unfortunately, I often hear about how intellectually gifted Watchman Nee was. He supposedly had a soaring intellect and an unequalled IQ, the saints like to boast. Because of this, it is claimed, God singled him out for the special task of sorting through the thousands of books written since the time of Christ, to put it all together, and to come up with a workable worldview appropriate for the desperate needs of the Church in the Twentieth Century. God could trust him to do that. Because he was that clever.

I've heard of tales where it's reported that Watchman Nee would lock himself in a room for months on end with all his books denying his eyes sleep as he read and scrutinized every word on every page of every book written by the old masters and prophets as he sought to work out the will of God. Wow!

I don't have much to say on this aside from that I appreciate the fact I don't have to go read through thousands of old Christian books to glean all the truths. I appreciate the consolidation in the same way a library patron would go to a librarian to find the correct book instead of sifting through millions of titles themselves and wasting precious time

Witness Lee, on the other hand, and I stand to be corrected, all I've read him say about himself is that the teachings 'he' recovered were as a direct result of, and I quote, "...of his more than seventy years of [careful] study of the Bible". It is then left open to us to interpret that, in turn, due to his numerous years of eye-dimming and sacrificial study resulting in his epoch-defining retrieval of 'stellar truths' heretofore hidden for millenia (unearthed by him ALONE, he was always careful to emphasize) God then deemed it appropriate to reward this tireless servant with the title of the Minister of the Age, his very own representative, nay, his very own deputy, on all the earth. A classic case of the cart before the horse, methinks.

I'm learning more and more. But I'm also not willing to throw the meat out with the bones as others have. There is food in his ministry. There is great truth there, wherever he got it. Does he have a controlling culture that he fostered in the LC over the decades? It seems so. Has he said dangerous things? I believe so. Have some read his works and been damaged? Again I believe so. But is it all corrupt and totally evil? By no means in my opinion. I think one of the major problems with Lee is his inability to allow himself to be criticized. And him fighting tooth and nail over justifying things that he errantly said and things that were dangerous that he said. He wouldn't allow himself to be corrected. He often propped up his own ministry as if it was infallible. And that is just frankly narcissism. Be wary of anyone who tries to quell freedom of speech and that includes criticism

BUT, should we toss aside his entire ministry because he had major faults and major sins? Again, I don't believe so

otherwise to me those voluminous footnotes read like an Organic Chemistry textbook

Well I consider myself fairly intelligent. I believe I am above average IQ, and I read the footnotes often and I find them not hard to understand. They sure are from the angle of Lee's ministry with regards to God's economy and God dwelling in man and transforming man. That is the foundation of his ministry and the foundation of all the footnotes. But they're not too hard I don't believe. I believe it's similar to a basic college 101 textbook style. Yes it's long, yes it's a lot of information. But once you start to understand it it all falls into place and you realize it compliments and falls into synergy with the Bible itself. I'd venture to say that it's even easier than a college textbook because once you sorta get the general gist of the ideas and doctrinal concepts then it all falls in place and compliments itself. The Bible also compliments itself, the bible is synergistic and God is wonderful for creating his word in this way. Lee's footnotes just help to understand and break things down and that's another reason why I can't throw Lee away- without the footnotes I'd be confused and lost in my understanding of the word. Once you "get it" the Bible becomes beautiful

even after shedding the initial, inescapable hoity-toity, holier-than-thou attitude that you don't realize you have and that you take everywhere with you like a bad smell

Yes we can get this way from time to time. And we certainly saw Lee acting this way. Our old man, our old self, is a narcissist. And he can come out sometimes and we don't even realize. We need humbling and lowliness of mind. Sufferings tend to do that. And to be in a position of praise does not help. Just like being in a position of power lends to the misuse of that power to serve our own whims, goals and agenda. But what is God's will and agenda? Can we say we know it better than others? Or are we playing God when we try to limit others and their truths and experiences? These are sins that many have fallen into

Originally Posted by Jay

can you post a link to which one it is please? I'll search the names though. I'm interested in this.

Hi Jay,

Thank you for your well-considered response. Meanwhile, I can't post the link this minute, but it's easy to get there. Here's how...

Just go back to the Main Page, and then go to to the left of the page. Scroll Down the Left-Hand Side until you come to the Heading entitled 'Writings of Former Members'.

Directly under that there is a sub-heading entitled 'Sub-Forums' beneath which you will clearly see all the Nine Sub-Forums. Select 'The Polemic Writings of Nigel Tomes. And then. Enjoy.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Humble Bricklayer

Hi Jay,

Thank you for your well-considered response. Meanwhile, I can't post the link this minute, but it's easy to get there. Here's how...

Just go back to the Main Page, and then go to to the left of the page. Scroll Down the Left-Hand Side until you come to the Heading entitled 'Writings of Former Members'.

Directly under that there is a sub-heading entitled 'Sub-Forums' beneath which you will clearly see all the Nine Sub-Forums. Select 'The Polemic Writings of Nigel Tomes. And then. Enjoy.

Here’s the link:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=71

Nell

[OBW]

. . . .
. . . . Even the author himself intimated that immature readers should stay away from this book. But given that he was only 26 years old when he wrote it . . .

Not only was he only 26 years old, but he had only been a Christian for about 8 years. There is little mention of how he attained any real training in the Bible and theology, and what is there does not constitute a thorough schooling. I suspect that he used his naturally gifted mind to figure it all out. And I think I recall that in one of the prefaces he essentially declared that no one else could have seen what he did.

Call me skeptical, but the only reason I believe him is that I have found much of his musings around such things as the three parts of man to be muddled, often stepping upon itself. No real scholar would have done so poorly, so no one else would have seen it. A real scholar with as much input from the Holy Spirit as he claims would not have put gold into the fire and come up with such a calf.

Further, a real scholar would not have made such boastful claims about the uniqueness of his findings/revelations.

[Nell]

I’ve heard for years that Nee “borrowed” an amount of The Spiritual Man from Jesse Penn-Lewis, or another of his female mentors.

Nell

[Ohio]

There’s nothing wrong with a little plagiarism. People can get a PHD from a top notch university that way. So we shouldn’t get upset that Nee didn’t have some advanced degree.

Just remember people, this statement by Lee is a typical hypocritical thing that he proclaimed and deceived thousands of people with:

If we are IN the local church, we are in the morning; if we are outside the local church, we are simply in the night.
If we are OUTSIDE the local church, we are wandering astray. But when we come into the church, we have a Guide.

CWWL, 1969, vol. 3, “Christ and the Church Revealed and Typified in the Psalms”

He wanted to be the guide, he fooled many that he was a guide.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There’s nothing wrong with a little plagiarism. People can get a PHD from a top notch university that way. So we shouldn’t get upset that Nee didn’t have some advanced degree.

Oh yeah. How could I forget that? Is that like what Isaiah was talking about?

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Seem like there’s a lot of that going on today. What is “woe” anyhoo? Help me here Ohio! ��

Nell

[Ohio]

“Woe” is not good. And Isa 5.20 sounds like the coming triple “Woe.”

Revelation 8.13. “ And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe! to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”

Have you read about the “3 Woes?” Trumpets 5, 6, and 7?

These ones who have everything backwards and upside down are the same ones in 2 Thess whom God will give over to a horrible delusion because they refused to love the truth.

[TheStarswillFall]

Matt 23 throws in a couple of woes during the Lord's evaluation of the scribes and the Pharisees.
~

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Matt 23 throws in a couple of woes during the Lord's evaluation of the scribes and the Pharisees.
~

One could say that Isaiah's "woe" warnings forecasted the coming destruction of Israel by the Assyrians. The Lord's "8-fold woes" to the Jewish leaders were followed by the destruction of the Temple by the Roman General Titus. The Angel's "woe woe woe" signals the final apocalyptic judgments culminating at Armageddon.

If the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," (Proverbs 9.10 et.al.) then the total absence of the fear of God results in total depravity and open rebellion towards God, Righteousness, and all truth. (2 Thess 2)

Is not "WOE" a last-ditch warning to repent?

Originally Posted by OBW

Not only was he (Nee) only 26 years old, but he had only been a Christian for about 8 years...

I did hear or read it somewhere once that, later in life, Watchman Nee actually regretted having written that book, The Spiritual Man.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I did hear or read it somewhere once that, later in life, Watchman Nee actually regretted having written that book, The Spiritual Man.

I also read/heard that. I think the conceit was that it was "too high" and could cause trouble with novices. But in truth, Nee was a novice when he wrote it. JP-L was cribbing Freemasons & he was naively cribbing her. His publisher said as much in the preface to the 2nd Edition. But by then the die was cast - WN was famous.

There's an interesting letter from Margaret Barber to a publisher in England, warning them about a young Chinese man named Henry Nee who was bright & aggressively ambitious, but who had no spiritual depth & would get himself & many others into trouble if he weren't careful. Which is exactly what shortly came to pass.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I did hear or read it somewhere once that, later in life, Watchman Nee actually regretted having written that book, The Spiritual Man.

Like others in the recent news who got caught with high profile plagiarism to further their own careers, WN only regretted getting caught. Of course. Otherwise he would have repented, come clean, and yanked the book off the shelves.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I also read/heard that. I think the conceit was that it was "too high" and could cause trouble with novices. But in truth, Nee was a novice when he wrote it. JP-L was cribbing Freemasons & he was naively cribbing her. His publisher said as much in the preface to the 2nd Edition. But by then the die was cast - WN was famous.

There's an interesting letter from Margaret Barber to a publisher in England, warning them about a young Chinese man named Henry Nee who was bright & aggressively ambitious, but who had no spiritual depth & would get himself & many others into trouble if he weren't careful. Which is exactly what shortly came to pass.

Here is some of the official history of the Recovery by the scholarly James Reetzke Sr of Chicago on his LSM approved http://http://mebarber.ccws.org website.

In China she lived in a suburb of Foochow, traveling little and receiving no publicity. She simply prayed for the Lord’s move and helped those who sought her counsel in seeking after the Lord. Through Miss Barber, Watchman Nee obtained a foundation for his spiritual life. When the young Brother Nee would admire the eloquence, knowledge, ability, zeal, or natural power of persuasion shown by a Christian speaker, Miss Barber would point out that these things were neither of life nor of the Spirit. They could stir people up but could never minister life to people. She paid more attention to life than to work. She also warned the young brothers against doing a popular work, which would bring shipwreck to their spiritual life. By deliberately putting himself before Miss Barber’s instruction and strict rebukes, Brother Nee received much help.

[aron]

Per Jim Reetzke, "By deliberately putting himself before Miss Barber’s instruction and strict rebukes, Brother Nee received much help." Strict rebukes from MEB then became perfecting trainings from WN onto his minions, who then did so unto others, just as WN had done so to them. Thus the public interaction that I viewed from WL towards TC.

Now, you may say, that MEB wasn't Asian. But her severity, and strict rebukes, were spiritualized in Asian cultural context and became the vehicle for WN and his disciples to "perfect" one another. Because it was Asian, nobody could "perfect" WL, no matter how off track he got. "Even when he's wrong, he's right" was the watchword. Same with WN - when WL had him restored, he didn't say the charges by the Shanghai elders were false, but rather pointed to how they felt when the Ascended Master WN lost face before them. That was the unthinkable event, not WN's apparent sin!!

Paul had said, "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern." But in the Little Flock/LC, the neo-confucian reading of the so-called spiritual man, discerning all but discerned by none, effaced Paul's words. WN had been perfected by MEB, now none could discern him. He was the Spiritual Man. Everyone else had to get in line (his words).

So if WL posited various contradictory centers of the universe, we couldn't discern. He was the Seer of the Divine Revelation. Or if WN was trained by a female, when females supposedly can't have authority over a male, that's none of our business. Who can discern the mind of the LORD? So we swallowed contradiction after contradiction, because the Oracle had said so.

But look at Paul, he was subject to others, just as they were to him. Galatians 2:2; 2:9-11. There was mutuality, there was protection from self deception spreading to the flock. But who could protect the flock from Nee and Lee?

Originally Posted by aron

Quoting Jim Reetzke, "By deliberately putting himself before Miss Barber’s instruction and strict rebukes, Brother Nee received much help."

In my many years in different churches, I have found out the hard way that there are always old ladies in every church that think that they have a right to instruct anyone and everyone with harsh rebukes. Looks like Nee was the only one enjoying this kind of shepherding methodologies, and came back for more. It speaks more to a human ways that M.E.Barber operated under, rather than anything of spiritual significance.

This reminded me of many videos and accounts on this forum and elsewhere, of military style leadership, youth meetings and conferences that were going on prior to the phones with cameras and social media in the local church. Also it reminded me of my days around police academy, where public humiliation, harsh rebukes, total shaming of you in front of everyone is a big thing. If you want to build a person to your liking and total control, you must tear him down in every possible way, so as to create in him a new worth that is pleasing to you and the institution which he or she represents. These methods aren’t spiritual or even humane per say, but it’s a preferred methods of all those in power who seek to control and create a culture of “yes sir” environment. It’s the “yes sir” men that empowered Lee and Nee, those whom they tore down, and rebuild to their own liking! Someone needs to tell me where we find Jesus in this system of men, or see “life” as we were promised in our recruiting process in the early years.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by aron

There's an interesting letter from Margaret Barber to a publisher in England, warning them about a young Chinese man named Henry Nee who was bright & aggressively ambitious, but who had no spiritual depth & would get himself & many others into trouble if he weren't careful. Which is exactly what shortly came to pass.

Aron, could you please point to where I can read that interesting letter concerning Henry Nee?

However, I did find this heads-up from M.E. Barber to be quite ironic. If you extract the "goodness" part, then her warning sure seems to match TLR:

"Many Chinese Christians have been utterly deceived; they well know the supernaturalism of heathenism, but it has never entered their heads that a demon could manifest himself in a Christian church, use Scriptural terms, exhort to goodness instead of evil, and press the reading of the Bible."

Thanks for the link to the Chicago Bookstore!

P.S.

[aron]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Aron, could you please point to where I can read that interesting letter concerning Henry Nee?

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Letter Two

The following letter was sent to D.M. Panton regarding Brother Watchman Nee, a brother of 23 years of age. Permission has been kindly granted by Lewis Schoettle (Schoettle Publishing Company) to reprint this letter, the original of which is in his possession.

Pagoda Anchorage
S. China
April 2, 1926

Dear Mr. Panton,

Please do not let Faithful Luke & Watchman Nee (Henry Nga is his home name) worry you with letters. It is so good & kind of you to have written once to them. They are likely to be tiresome. They write to Mr. Wright Hay or any Editor whose address they can get & do not understand how precious time is to a busy Editor. For many reasons I think you should not be feeling obliged even to answer their letters. These two young men are in great danger. They have a mental apprehension of God’s Truth which unless lived out will be their peril

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html

Fourteen months later, Watchman Nee published the book Spiritual Man

Also sourced here: https://www.churchinmarlboro.org/int...ion/barber.htm

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Fourteen months later, Watchman Nee published the book Spiritual Man.

I'll follow previous post w 3 related comments. First is that even though WN's mentor warned explicitly of the real and imminent danger, and it played out nearly on cue, it was ignored because in our minds he WAS the Spiritual Man, the Seer of the Divine Revelation (WL's appelation) and was therefore exempt from all such considerations.

So we could pay selective attention to MEB, just like with the NT itself. Where they could line up with the Ascended Master narrative, they were waved as proof text. Where they weren't helpful, they were completely forgotten.

Second, that it then explains the behaviour patterns in the subsequent narrative. If you read WL's words to the Shanghai elders, he suggested that "how you were feeling" when they deposed WN was because they had uncovered the shame of drunken Noah. It didn't matter that Noah got drunk, but rather, that they uncovered it.

So the clear directive of NT text was overturned by a higher rule. Didn't matter that both WN and WL were disqualified from serving as a local elder or deacon, per Paul's epistles to Timothy and Titus. No, WL was above such mere trifles. They could be ignored in our pursuits of higher spiritual planes of being.

Lastly, that this idea of one spiritual man who's above all, making the rules up to suit as he goes along, no matter if they self-contradict, is not Asian per se. There are plenty of MOTA wanna-be's out there. But this variant of the false trumpet is particularly Asian in that it's so closely aligned with their cultural expectations.

Can you imagine one American expatriot in France threatening to cut off another's hands if they criticize President Biden or former President Trump? No, criticism of Western leaders is understood as acceptable, even part of the political and religious dialogue. But Chinese nationals living in USA can't speak up with concerns, for fear of such reprisals. The culture demands this response, and plenty of willing volunteers will step up to enforce it.

So my point is that WN and/or WL asserting that he was today's Paul, the Spiritual man, were immune from rebuttal. No matter how much evidence piled up to the contrary, we could ignore all that. At some point the Westerners usually smell a rat, and leave. But to the Asians, it's natural (pun intended).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Can you imagine one American expatriot in France threatening to cut off another's hands if they criticize President Biden or former President Trump? No, criticism of Western leaders is understood as acceptable, even part of the political and religious dialogue. But Chinese nationals living in USA can't speak up with concerns, for fear of such reprisals. The culture demands this response, and plenty of willing volunteers will step up to enforce it.

So my point is that WN and/or WL asserting that he was today's Paul, the Spiritual man, were immune from rebuttal. No matter how much evidence piled up to the contrary, we could ignore all that. At some point the Westerners usually smell a rat, and leave. But to the Asians, it's natural (pun intended).

Let me give a cultural example to support aron's assertions here.

By blood, I am 3/4 German. I have been watching WWII/Nazi/Hitler movies and documentaries for my entire life. None in my family ever got offended over this because we are Americans. Several whole cable channels cover these. Yet, I have never seen documentary on China/Mao/Communism. Why is that?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By blood, I am 3/4 German...

I get your point, and I'm sympathetic, but I don't want to sidetrack my own point. I brought up politics to show the strong effect that ingrained culture has on perspective and its responses, both religious, social and political. Our home culture automatically trumps all, until examined, and dominates us without mercy, or relief. There is no light that comes in, unless we let it...

The Lord's Recovery is a strongly committed Christian group, except where the Christian religion interferes with its Chinese mindset, and then the Christian ethos is dropped as if nonexistent. They can be quite logical, until logic runs afoul of their culture, then logic be damned... and none of it gets examined, because their culture resists such self-examination. And yet we all thought it was soooo spiritual... somehow our leader was above such examinations. And yet he always examined us. His culture demanded it, and we yielded (2 Cor 11:19,20).

We laughed at when Witness Lee made fun of our Easter Rabbits and Christmas Stockings. But we'd better not poke at Witness Lee! That would an attack from Satan, a rebellion against God, an accusation from the pit of hell etc. There's an old Christian song, "Take a look at yourself, and you can look at others", but we couldn't ever look at ourselves in such a place. I've been considering the rise of WN and his group in this broader social and historical context.

For example, one of the great horrific slaughters of Christians in the 20th century occurred in China - by the Chinese! It was an orgy of violence. Yet we never talk about it, because they might get offended. We can talk about what the Japanese did, or the Americans, or British, but not the Chinese. That would be offensive. Do you see my point? Until we can examine everything, we really examine nothing. We only pretend.

"By late 1899 the Boxers were openly attacking Chinese Christians and Western missionaries. By May 1900, Boxer bands were roaming the countryside around the capital at Beijing. Finally, in early June an international relief force of some 2,100 men was dispatched from the northern port of Tianjin to Beijing. On June 13 the empress dowager ordered imperial forces to block the advance of the foreign troops, and the small relief column was turned back. Meanwhile, in Beijing the Boxers burned churches and foreign residences and killed suspected Chinese Christians on sight. On June 17 the foreign powers seized the Dagu forts on the coast in order to restore access from Beijing to Tianjin. The next day the empress dowager ordered that all foreigners be killed. The German minister was murdered, and the other foreign ministers and their families and staff, together with hundreds of Chinese Christians, were besieged in their legation quarters and in the Roman Catholic cathedral in Beijing."

https://www.britannica.com/event/Boxer-Rebellion

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

"On June 13 1900 the empress dowager ordered imperial forces to block the advance of the foreign troops, and the small relief column was turned back. Meanwhile, in Beijing the Boxers burned churches and foreign residences and killed suspected Chinese Christians on sight. On June 17 the foreign powers seized the Dagu forts on the coast in order to restore access from Beijing to Tianjin. The next day the empress dowager ordered that all foreigners be killed. The German minister was murdered, and the other foreign ministers and their families and staff, together with hundreds of Chinese Christians, were besieged in their legation quarters and in the Roman Catholic cathedral in Beijing."

https://www.britannica.com/event/Boxer-Rebellion

My idea here has been that the false trumpet still sounds while we don't understand it. When we understand, the false trumpet becomes void.

Witness Lee and Watchman Nee operated under the assumption that their behaviours could not be understood, only passively accepted. Some higher logic was at work, and we needed to yield to God. But I see patterns -- in the Boxer Rebellion, I see the same pattern of action in the empress dowager ordering all foreigners to be killed, and Witness Lee with the family of John and Jane Carol Anderson. There's no due process, no respect for human life, or humanity. A threat is identified and eliminated.

In this, Witness Lee yielded to his cultural imperatives and not to the New Testament. I have pointed out repeatedly Paul's clear admonitions in the NT of expected actions of church leadership, which WL flouted. Why? Because he was evil, more than you or I? No, but because his cultural imperatives simply wouldn't allow it.

I read a paper by Chang* that posited WN as someone whose spirituality struggled with but ultimately transcended his Chinese-ness. But if you look at all the stuff he leaves out, you wonder why. Is Chang a Local Churcher? Or just a sympathizer? He's not critical at all, but writes what amounts to a puff piece. If you look at all the actions of Nee and his compatriots, you rather see someone whose Chinese-ness transcended his spirituality.

"Nee also propounded a system of theology that was more complex, subtle, and ambitious than that of any other Chinese Christian of his generation. For a number of reasons,
then, Nee made for an ideal exemplification of Chinese theology. Nevertheless, neither Nee nor his followers would have acknowledged Nee’s thought as particularly “Chinese” in any way. Nee’s system only made sense and retained its vibrancy inasmuch as Nee was not seen to be particularly beholden either to Chinese society or to Chinese thought. Paradoxically, it seemed that Nee could only be a viable representative of a living tradition of Chinese thought to the extent that he shunned the specifically Chinese character of that thought."

The thesis only works when you hide about 80% of what Nee did and said. And Chang for some reason does just that. How can you write a PhD thesis and be so selective and biased?

"Nee’s ability to synthesize these complex and conflicting themes was readily evident within the first few years of his conversion. Even his earliest writings display a masterful
authorial voice. Thus Witness Lee recalled his assumptions when he first read Nee’s work around 1925: 'From the way this writer [Nee] addressed his readers, I imagined he was an aged Christian teacher, perhaps over sixty years of age. Actually, he was a young man only two years older than I.' At the time, Nee was actually twenty-one years old.”

The "masterful authorial voice" is also known as plagiarism. The voice is not Nee's but borrowed because it was convenient. But this obvious fact isn't noted.

*Chang, P. H. (2017). " The Spiritual Human is Discerned by No One": An Intellectual Biography of Watchman Nee (Doctoral dissertation, The University of Chicago).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I read a paper by Chang* that posited WN as someone whose spirituality struggled with but ultimately transcended his Chinese-ness. But if you look at all the stuff he leaves out, you wonder why. Is Chang a Local Churcher? Or just a sympathizer? He's not critical at all, but writes what amounts to a puff piece. If you look at all the actions of Nee and his compatriots, you rather see someone whose Chinese-ness transcended his spirituality.

*Chang, P. H. (2017). "The Spiritual Human is Discerned by No One": An Intellectual Biography of Watchman Nee (Doctoral dissertation, The University of Chicago).

I would not be surprised at all if the author had LC roots. Who would title a book in this way? Definitely not some impartial scholar. “Discerned by no one?” The title beginning is just too close to WN’s first book, yet Chang never noted (per aron) that it was plagiarized. Who would cover up this inconvenient fact?

Almost two millennia later, the things haven’t changed, If anything, there are more & more people today that would make backdoor deals and agree among themselves to - “Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:”.

The question that should be asked and be of uber importance is ,”What is truth?” - but the persuasion of the priests and the elders taking control over crowd by shouting louder and more louder silencing even the most humble of servants as Jesus himself still manifesting itself on daily basis.

Let that sink in just for a moment ….. even the totally uninformed individual such as Pilate knew something was up and asked those questions. But even those who considered themselves the most wanting, waiting, knowing and special were persuaded otherwise.
A lesson to be learned for all of us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Here is a link to an article by a Westerner living in China, on the custom of not being truthful. Effectively he is saying that:

1. The Chinese are pragmatic and they will say whatever they need to say to get their desired results.

2. The Chinese have a feudalistic notion of loyalty. So they have different sets of rules depending where you are in the clan or not. They may lie to an outsider, to protect an insider. Thus Philip Lin's statement that "Okay I recognize the truth as you (a Westerner) present it, but my loyalty still lies with Witness Lee. To me there's a greater truth than "who did what to whom and when", and that's my affiliation with Witness Lee."

http://chinahopelive.net/2011/11/09/...mainland-china

Here's a quote, in red, below:

“Lying” isn’t just a cross-cultural communication pot-hole between Chinese and Euro-Americans, it’s a crater. Conflicting communication styles result in Westerners sometimes thinking their Chinese counterparts are lying even when they actually have no intention of deceiving anyone. The Americans get the (long-standing) impression that the Chinese are devious and deceptive, while the Chinese, who weren’t intending to deceive anyone and were merely being polite and gracious, are annoyed to no end at the simplistic and judgmental Americans.

But there’s another side to Mainland Chinese society, where ethics are simply a non-factor in decision making. Mainland Chinese lie and deceive reflexively in many aspects of their daily lives and relationships; it’s routine, accepted, expected and generally considered unavoidable. If you’re straight, honest and genuine, people will think you’re simple, naive and stupid. Corruption is endemic in every layer of society, and it is common for it to taint thesis papers, resumes and job applications, personal ads, and communication between spouses, parents and children, employees and employers, clients and suppliers, etc.

This quoted post above is from a thread on the "Sacrifice and Sail On" book by Philip Lin. To him, there was an imperative, or socially-constructed reality, about being unwavering in support of the person in front, in this case Witness Lee. To fail to support WL is to go against the divine order. Doesn't matter if that WL makes mistakes, aka "Drunken Noah" or "David the Adulterer" - one must find some verse or interpretation to cover the situation, or else ignore the error, or else deflect it as an "attack" and "accusation" if there's no logical or reasonable way to defend it. Or, if you can't do anything, say, "It's a pity."

None of that is shocking once you get how deeply rooted all this behaviour is - it's reflexive, like breathing. What's more surprising in retrospect is that as someone not in the cultural tradition would accept it as divinely sourced. As things got further off track we just said it was divinely arranged.

Originally Posted by Unreg

The question that should be asked and be of uber importance is ,”What is truth?” - but the persuasion of the priests and the elders taking control over crowd by shouting louder and more louder silencing even the most humble of servants as Jesus himself still manifesting itself on daily basis.

Let that sink in just for a moment ….. even the totally uninformed individual such as Pilate knew something was up and asked those questions

So, for Philip Lin to write "Sacrifice and Sail On" as an apologia for Witness Lee is completely expected. It's mandated by his cultural traditions. The truth must be bent to the larger imperatives. It must be consistently cast into one aspect, which we would call bias, or untruth. I think people like the Blendeds at some point, should know better. Many of them have Western traditions, you know the Judeo-Christian idea of truth. I can only surmise that their reasoning follows somewhat like the priests and elders: "Whatever shall we do?! The Romans will come and take away our place and our nation!" They are compromised by vested interests to do whatever's needed to keep the thing going. The truth at that point is whatever is needed to keep the enterprise functioning.