Against the LC Practice of Prophesying

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

And there are actually a whole lot of those "church goers" that you still look down on just a little that are actually doing that. It is not demonstrably true because of a burning desire to jump up in a meeting and "prophesy." It is demonstrably true because of the lives that they now live. Oh, you can say some that are not doing that.

Again, there is a difference between living a Christian-like life without the fruits of the Spirit, and actually having the fruits of the Spirit. I've known some very dear Christians who just seem to still lack the fruits of the Spirit. I've known some Christians who are very well-meaning but just don't have have much love, joy and peace. I'm not looking down on them. I'm just stating facts as I see them. Paul warned in Galatians of starting in the Spirit and trying to carry on by the strength of the flesh. These people seem to have that problem.

But our learned version of spiritual maturity that looks like an LCM member without the LCM on their back is a false image of the true believer.

"Our?" Please speak for yourself. It's not mine. I wish you'd try to remember that. Everyone who thinks people need to experience God rather than just knowing about him are not necessarily elitists or closet LCMers.

Here's a question for you. Do you have love, joy and peace in your life? How much? A lot? If not, do you think that is normal? I know everyone can have a bad day, but overall, what is it like for you? Like right now, I'm filled with joy and peace. I like that experience. I think it's normal for a Christian. I have bad moments when I lose my temper or get bummed out or doubt. But eventually I know I need to return to the Spirit and love, joy, peace.

I don't think God is much interested in grim-faced, grinding "faithfulness" day-in and day-out. I sense in you a measure of pride about your ability to forge on without having any feelings. Well, we all need to do that sometimes, but I don't think it's intended to be the norm. Love, joy and peace are after all, feelings of a sort. I've heard of people who claim to have gone years in the "dry valley" but it's not happened to me.

So here's to experience! Life would be pretty damn dull without it.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I sense in you a measure of pride about your ability to forge on without having any feelings.

Speak for yourself. It would appear that anyone who sees things different than you is just a theory machine. But it ain't so. I need a level of feelings. Without them, I would never have any sense of anything. I would just drive on like a jerk indefinitely. It is the feeling of internal shame that I am driving like every other jerk on the road that causes me to realize my failure. And it is the peace at the end of the journey that tells me that I have been in the presence of God. But that experience is mostly in the agreement to do as I already know that I should. I don't need a booster shot of feelings to do it.

And that is the way Peter said it. "You have all you need." And even Paul. I need the realization that I have been crucified, and that the life that I can now live will be lived by Christ if I agree with that life. Paul said that he was crucified with Christ. That eliminated the need for circumcision or dietary restrictions. He could simply live the life by faith in Christ.

It is faith in, not inner workings by, Christ. That does not mean that there are no inner workings. But like Paul said in Romans 8, you set your mind and walk, not get your tank filled and go until it runs out. There may arguably be some connection between the two. But the first does take your own volition and will while the second is presumed to just happen because there is all this fuel (which Lee would have called dispensing). And if you don't sense enough dispensing, you just don't start on the journey.

But that makes the Word of God of no effect because it declares that we do not have what we need. It suggests that we need more.

Grace is so often seen as this thing that just handles everything for us. But it is also stated as teaching us to obey. And obedience means that we have to do. And do without simply having everything done for you. Otherwise there is nothing to teach.

I know that I just spouted Lee's theology. And neither of us follow it willfully. But do we still see aspects of the Christian life with a little of that overlay still in place? Thinking that those who come to have a quiet faith are somehow deficient of "experience" when they, without a lot of bravado, just do as they should.

Joy, peace, and love are not measured by your observation. They are found in people with no reason to smile. Whose lives seem to be crumbling around them and they seem more likely to be crying out to God for help than living in peace. But maybe they have more peace than we think. They will always seek better, but accept what they get. They don't seek an experience to tell them that they are on the right track. They know they are because they know Him in whom they have believed. And in that they find peace. Peace that if this life gives them chaos and garbage, the next will give them resurrection.

I spent almost every Sunday evening for the past two or so years with a group of people that included a man who was living on borrowed time. A previous lung transplant that had taken longer than normal to be useful was now on its way out. He started having portable oxygen with him all the time. He was far from comfortable. But still worked as a computer technician over the phone. One day he got an injury on his leg. Hard to heal due to the complications. Ended out in the hospital. At one point they expected him to go home in two days. But he went to a different home the very next day. He knew this was a possibility. And despite what I can only call some fairly sketchy theology, he had peace concerning his life and what could happen. He had been getting all kinds of treatments in hopes of improving his lung function, some of which did help for a time. But while not even 70 yet, he knew he might not live much longer. And was at peace. And was full of joy, although you would only really know if you could talk to him for a while.

Don't look at those average church goers and presume anything based on what you think you see over an hour or so. You might find you didn't really know. I wouldn't have known concerning this man without the more regular contact.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Don't look at those average church goers and presume anything based on what you think you see over an hour or so. You might find you didn't really know. I wouldn't have known concerning this man without the more regular contact.

I'm talking about Christians I see again and again. I get very little registration there is much joy unspeakable and full of glory in their lives (Peter said that, too, BTW). I understand that you can't tell much about someone at a glance. But after you've been around a person for awhile you kind of figure out what they are about.

The bottom line is a true person of faith is going to have the fruits of the Spirit. And that starts, not with self-control, but with love, joy and peace. The implication is that love, joy and peace help us have self-control, (and vice versa to be fair). Now, you might feel like a hero by saying you don't need to "refuel," but you can tell someone else because I don't buy it for a minute. Unless you are not a human being you do need it, because we all do, because we are emotional creatures who need God's Spirit to recharge. God made us that way.

Our faith is demonstrated by our (1) good works. It is also demonstrated by our demeanor, which is made attractive by (2) love, joy and peace. If you have the former but not the latter, well people might think you are a trooper, but they are not going to want to be like you.

If you have the latter without the former, then one of two things will happen: you will gain the former or you will lose the latter. But anyone who has the former in its genuine manifestation has the latter, too, most of the time. Anyone who (over the long term) claims to have the former but rarely has the latter is actually full of baloney, laboring in his flesh and not representing the Lord well.

I would never discount your friend with the lung. But I have a friend, George (below the night before surgery), who has been fighting cancer for over a year and just last week had a lemon-sized tumor removed from his brain. He's like a light bulb. Now he was this way before, but he's still this way. He's able to manifest love, joy and peace. So what's my excuse, or yours?



Experience means Christ has gone from being a theory to being real to you. The result is love, joy and peace. Peter called it joy unspeakable and full of glory. Do you have that? If not, you should take a break from discounting everyone's experience and get some.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think you make a good analogy. Even with simple things, I think most in the LC have learned not to ask "why".

An example that comes to mind is how over the past few years, I've seen an increased push to get everyone to do PSRP. Even before I had many concerns about the LC, this practice of PSRP struck me as somewhat odd. I had gone to a few meetings where I realized later that what they had us doing during the meeting was PSRP. I remember during a semi-annual training, during the study session, we used the whole time to pray-read and memorize the outline. Now that was pretty boring, and I was also quite troubled.

Anyways, getting back to what I was saying, if I were to actually ask why PSRP is something that we need to do, I'm sure they wouldn't like that. In fact, it could be consider attacking WL's ministry, because he was the one who said to do PSRP.

I quoted this post on this thread because it really belongs here and I wanted to put us back on topic.

Freedom made a great point here. The LC practice of PSRP was never based on the scripture. Let me give a little history ...

After the storms and quarantines of the late 80's to early 90's, Lee began to teach his "high peak" theories, i.e. that we become baby-gods. His outlines at this time (~ mid 90's) became extremely complex and long-winded treaties. The titles themselves were often a paragraph in length. They were like chewing cellulose insulation, which is exactly what those outlines should have been used for. I think it was some of the full-timer zealots from Taiwan that came up with the PSRP practices in order to get into Lee's outlines. What started during an Anaheim training, eventually spread, by decree, to all the LC's.

PSRP stood for Pray-read, Study, Recite, Prophesy. The first three were designed to be done in a small group session -- pray-read the outline, study the outline, and recite the outline from memory. Notice that these had nothing to do with the Bible, but with Lee's esoteric "high peak" outlines. From that group time together, each participant would prepare a "prophecy" for speaking in the training meetings.

I still remember the time one of our fervent saints brought this new-found practice back to town. It really was what aron would call a "charismatic" experience. We were exhorted to shout, repeat, amen, and get ourselves all worked up. There was little prayer, but lots of jubilant repetition. It was fun for a while, but provided little spiritual substance. In the GLA, it came and went fairly quickly. So I was surprised when Freedom said the LC's actually still do that. It's no wonder they know the scripture so poorly, but have been convinced they know it so well.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I quoted this post on this thread because it really belongs here and I wanted to put us back on topic.

Freedom made a great point here. The LC practice of PSRP was never based on the scripture. Let me give a little history ...

After the storms and quarantines of the late 80's to early 90's, Lee began to teach his "high peak" theories, i.e. that we become baby-gods. His outlines at this time (~ mid 90's) became extremely complex and long-winded treaties. The titles themselves were often a paragraph in length. They were like chewing cellulose insulation, which is exactly what those outlines should have been used for. I think it was some of the full-timer zealots from Taiwan that came up with the PSRP practices in order to get into Lee's outlines. What started during an Anaheim training, eventually spread, by decree, to all the LC's.

PSRP stood for Pray-read, Study, Recite, Prophesy. The first three were designed to be done in a small group session -- pray-read the outline, study the outline, and recite the outline from memory. Notice that these had nothing to do with the Bible, but with Lee's esoteric "high peak" outlines. From that group time together, each participant would prepare a "prophecy" for speaking in the training meetings.

I still remember the time one of our fervent saints brought this new-found practice back to town. It really was what aron would call a "charismatic" experience. We were exhorted to shout, repeat, amen, and get ourselves all worked up. There was little prayer, but lots of jubilant repetition. It was fun for a while, but provided little spiritual substance. In the GLA, it came and went fairly quickly. So I was surprised when Freedom said the LC's actually still do that. It's no wonder they know the scripture so poorly, but have been convinced they know it so well.

I have heard people make reference to the complexity of LC outlines, so I guess that fact doesn't come as a surprise to anyone. I have seen a bit of frustration that these outlines are too hard to understand or take in. I've seen many outline points that are at least a paragraph long which should have been broken up into multiple sentences, or better yet, multiple points. I've come to associate the "High Peak Truths" with wordy outlines that are essentially meaningless. If PSRP was invented to address that, then it's more understandable as to why that practice would be pushed. I have a simpler solution for them, however, that would be to get rid of their meaningless outlines.

As the practice of PSRP relates to "prophesying" in the meetings, it might helpful for someone who is hoping to parrot the ministry. Since that is something that so many like to do, I guess they need something like PSRP. I can't remember for sure, but I think I might have memorized the RcV outline for at least one book of the Bible. That is good for being able to speak from the ministry, but it's only good for that.

What I wanted to mention specifically is that this idea of memorizing or "digesting" the ministry can easily lead to someone having something to speak in a meeting. The ministry is full of clever statements will sound really good if spoken in a meeting. By contrast, when I read the Word, it doesn't automatically result in having something good to share in a meeting. The thought in the LC is that whatever you happen to read, whether it be the ministry or something in the Word, if you don't have something to speak from it, it means that you aren't enjoying it or you aren't really getting into it. I think that is a big fallacy. My experience when reading the Bible is that there are plenty of things that stand out to me. Most of the time, that is just God's speaking to me personally. That doesn't mean it is also what I should share with those around me. Have those in the LC ever considered that just because they "enjoyed" something, doesn't necessarily mean that they should share it in a meeting? I think the LC is full of speaking that is of little benefit because of this type of thinking.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think it was some of the full-timer zealots from Taiwan that came up with the PSRP practices in order to get into Lee's outlines. What started during an Anaheim training, eventually spread, by decree, to all the LC's.

PSRP stood for Pray-read, Study, Recite, Prophesy. The first three were designed to be done in a small group session -- pray-read the outline, study the outline, and recite the outline from memory. Notice that these had nothing to do with the Bible, but with Lee's esoteric "high peak" outlines. From that group time together, each participant would prepare a "prophecy" for speaking in the training meetings.

I still remember the time one of our fervent saints brought this new-found practice back to town. It really was what aron would call a "charismatic" experience.

The locality I was meeting with in the NW at the time, the initial response to PSRP was like letting air out of a balloon. I could see in the faces of brothers it was as if they were thinking "here we go again". Yet faithful to embrace change as they had in a prior decade with the door knocking flow, brothers and sisters embraced PSRP. Frankly there's more spiritual benefit to memorizing verses or even memorizing 66 books of the Bible in order. All I ever got from PSRP is how to exalt a minister and his ministry.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The locality I was meeting with in the NW at the time, the initial response to PSRP was like letting air out of a balloon. I could see in the faces of brothers it was as if they were thinking "here we go again". Yet faithful to embrace change as they had in a prior decade with the door knocking flow, brothers and sisters embraced PSRP. Frankly there's more spiritual benefit to memorizing verses or even memorizing 66 books of the Bible in order. All I ever got from PSRP is how to exalt a minister and his ministry.

PSRP is one of those things everyone just goes along with to be "positive". I've never seen any attempt at it being implemented in a widespread way, rather it is something they try to sneak in here and there. I mentioned that some of the instances where I did it, I didn't realize that's what we were doing until after the fact. In other words, pray-reading and outline didn't strike me as odd while we were doing it. Once I realized what PSRP actually was, then I realized, yeah that is why we were pray-reading outlines. For what what ultimate purpose? I guess to make us prophecy better, since that is the last letter in the acronym.

When I attended some of the semi-annual trainings, they would have a "testing" time at the end of each message. The testing would be on the messages from the preceding day. They would hand out "study questions" that were supposed to prepare us for testing. As it turned out, most of the study questioned corresponded to points on the outline. So all the "testing" really accomplished was to demonstrate who would speak from the outline the best.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Once I realized what PSRP actually was, then I realized, yeah that is why we were pray-reading outlines.

Pray-reading outlines? As if to equate to scripture?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

I spent almost every Sunday evening for the past two or so years with a group of people that included a man who was living on borrowed time. A previous lung transplant that had taken longer than normal to be useful was now on its way out. He started having portable oxygen with him all the time. He was far from comfortable. But still worked as a computer technician over the phone. One day he got an injury on his leg. Hard to heal due to the complications. Ended out in the hospital. At one point they expected him to go home in two days. But he went to a different home the very next day. He knew this was a possibility. And despite what I can only call some fairly sketchy theology, he had peace concerning his life and what could happen. He had been getting all kinds of treatments in hopes of improving his lung function, some of which did help for a time. But while not even 70 yet, he knew he might not live much longer. And was at peace. And was full of joy, although you would only really know if you could talk to him for a while.

This is similar to the experience my wife and I had. Several nights ago a sister we provided hospice care for from December 31-February 13 passed away, She had ovarian cancer diagnosed in November 2013. By November 2014 cancer had spread to one of her lungs. By December one lung was partially collapsed and the other was at 30% function. She had her lungs drained a handful of times. With or without using an oxygen tank, she would give what breath she had to glorify God.
Yet, our sister was full of joy, calling on the Lord, rebuking her cancer, singing songs. Truly a testimony and inspiration to all her friends of living to Christ.