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Old 02-11-2010, 07:48 AM   #1
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Default God became man that man might become God

This particular teaching has been quite a bother to me.....even when I was attending the meetings of the LC. I hope I am not repeating earlier postings although the chance of that being so is probably quite high since this became the central theme of Witness Lee's view and thoughts concerning what he termed...."God's economy". Even though the words and something of the thought can be traced back to Athanasius, this does not at all put any kind of doctrinal authoritative stamp of approval on it....at least not to me. I've asked my brother....a full time participant in the LC this simple question. Why didn't the apostles use this kind of language, especially the apostle Paul, in any of their writings. Of course he had no answer but simply looked at me.

After having been in the local churches for most of my adult life......having pray read literally tens of thousands of hours......called "Oh Lord Jesus"(blessed be our wonderful Lord...not to discredit our Lord at all) umpteen times.....I believe that I have not become one wit more God in life and nature than I was when I first came into the LC at age 17. Peter says we partake of the divine nature. I believe this and feel that I certainly have. Paul says we behold and reflect.....I know this is true also....but becoming God in life and nature.......I have huge questions and doubts about this. My personal experience is this When I stop beholding......I stop reflecting. When I don't partake of the divine nature.....I certainly don't manifest it in my own life.

To me.....it's more like ......the light in the kitchen is either on or off. It didn't slowly become on. Paul said ...."walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh". That is my life and I have no doubt it is yours also. If I walk in the Spirit then I am partaking of the divine nature and I can reflect the one I am beholding. If I don't......I will fulfill the lust of the flesh. Now where in this scenario did I become God in life and nature. I simply participated in the life and nature of another. When I ceased to participate....I was just my fallen self again. How did I become God in life and nature. I suppose for whatever the length of time I walked in the Spirit I experinced God as my life and nature.......I can certainly believe this and see no conflict with what is presented in the writings of the apostles. "Becoming God" though.......that's a whole different story. Thoughts anyone?
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:29 AM   #2
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Default Re: God became man that man might become God

Man, and I was juuuuussssttt going to address this issue...you beat me to it!

So very good to hear from you Oregon!

I have lots of "thoughts" about this of course. Have to run off and try to make some $ now though. I'll try to get a post in later today.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: God became man that man might become God

Oregon,

Great questions. And to top it off, I would like it if someone could give a history of Lee's teachings on the subject.

We left in 1987 and I must say that I do not recall hearing about man becoming God. Was I just beginning to check out enough that it was slipping by me, or was it just about that time that it began?

And besides the little slogan that keeps getting quoted, what exactly did he say to set this teaching up?
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:14 AM   #4
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Hi OBW......1987....I remember that period well.....about the time when some of the so called pillars of the church were departing....John Ingalls, Bill Malon etc. That was a very troublesome time and I've never felt any heart commitment to the LC's since then.

I don't want to state the history of the "Man becoming God" teaching wrongly.....so I can only comment on it from my personal view and experience. It's been a growing thing over the last 2 decades and is fairly well cemented into local church doctrine at this point. I think it is really the outgrowth and final end of Witness Lees view of what transformation is..... the bit by bit nature of God adding Himself to us thing.

I personally believe that when one becomes a believer he gets all of what God is at that time. The believer may or may not walk in God but never the less....when he was born again he got connected with the eternal creator and the One who is all in all. If we "take up our cross.....deny ourself....and follow Him"...as the Lord said.....we will no doubt have a fuller experience of abiding in Him. We enter into and abide in Him. We experience him as our life. I think that is a very different thought than "Man becoming God."

Of course the phrase is always added...."in life and nature but not in the Godhead".....so what the LC people actually say is "God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead". I know the LC people are not like the Mormons who actually do believe that they will become gods. My problem with this teaching is that I don't believe I am becoming God.......I believe I am entering into God and abiding in Him and partaking of what he is. To me that is a very different thought. The LC people are looking for some kind of transformation in their being over time that will be a vindication of this truth. Many have become discouraged and even fallen away over the years because this so called change never happens. In my thought.....it isn't supposed to happen and isn't going to happen. It's a flawed teaching that sets people up for great disapointment.

Jesus said "I am the vine and you are the branches..........abide in me and I in you." If the branch does not abide in the vine it becomes withered and is good to be burned. That is my experience. I'm not becoming God......I am just me......the fallen sinner in need of God constantly. I only exibit a change in my life and being as long as I abide in him. If I cease.....I wither away and am just my old self again. I believe this is what is taught in the NT and is real to me. The "becoming God" thing has never been real to me and I don't believe it is what the NT teaches.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: God became man that man might become God

OBW

Somehow you missed that teaching on the God-men. T. Neil Duddy put out his book against Lee called “The God-men” in 1977, and an updated edition in 1981. The LC sued the author of that book around that time. Lee must have used the terminology if in no other way than in self defense around the time that the suit was taking place. Maybe other doctrines were more important to you and to the LC at the time you were in the LC. It is almost considered a believe or leave doctrine now because the whole purpose of being in the LC is to become an overcomer, which is also equated with becoming a God-man.

Oregon

“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Pet 1:2-4).

The idea of Deification is based primarily on these verses. According to Lee, being partakers of the divine nature equaled becoming a God-man. It is the same as the doctrine of Perfectionism that was taught by John Wesley in the 1800’s. We can get to the point that we are perfect or divine in this life. The mistake seems to be that it is thought that “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2), is something for this life instead of being something of the future. And instead of “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure” (1 John 3:3), Lee emphasized just turning to our spirit to attain the goal of becoming a God-man. He was constantly trying to make things simple, and coming up with simplistic opinions that required a lot of words to explain and through the many words became very complex.

According to John, we go through the process of purification now because we have a future hope that we will be like God and see him as he is. According to Peter we shall be partakers of the divine nature in the future. Lee thought that it is something that can be accomplished in the present.

In the beginning we were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:26-27). Then the fall ruined that image and likeness (Gen 3). In the future we have the hope that the image and likeness will be fully restored. But it is not restored by our actions of purification or by simply turning to the spirit. Purification is because of a future hope and because of a present desire to be a present testimony for God and Jesus Christ.

There are two creations. In the first creation is a loss. In the second creation what was lost is regained, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is only one way that the lost image and likeness can be regained, and that is in Christ who is the image (Col 1:15). And the image is not something that we can individually attain. It is something that we eventually attain together as the Body of Christ (Col 3:10). Jesus became in the likeness of men so that in him we might be renewed in the image of God. We don’t become God-men. The only God-man is Jesus Christ. The culmination of being in Christ is to be partakers of the divine nature and to be like God or in the likeness of God and to see God as he is. That does not even make us God-men in the future. It only means that we are in the God-man through whom is the restoration of being in the likeness and image of God.

The whole idea of Christian Mysticism as practiced in the Eastern Orthodox Church and in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Holiness denominations and in the LC is wrong for one simple reason. They are trying to attain something in the present that is meant for the future. In this era, we practice purification by walking according to the Spirit, in order that our minds may be renewed. We can study the Bible all day long, but if we are not walking according to the Spirit, all we will attain will be personal opinions, opinions that will not result in a renewing of our minds. We will be only conformed to our personal opinions. This is what Rom 8 and Gal 5 and Col 3 is all about. There is only one alternative to walking according to the Spirit. And that is walking according to the flesh. Walking according to the Spirit culminates in fruit that is related to life. Walking according to the flesh culminates in works that is related to death. And it is our choice as to which we do and which we have.

I think that it was John MacArthur who answered the question, How do I live the Christian life, with this answer, “walk according to the Spirit and do what you want”. He meant, of course, that if we are walking according to the Spirit, we will want to do what God would want us to do, to live how God would want us to live. And when we are doing what God wants us to do and living in the way that God wants us to live, we are living the Christian life. That no longer applies if we fall into walking according to the flesh. And from personal experience, the difference is pronounced and very noticeable no matter how we might try to fool ourselves or others. Once I walked according to the Spirit, I had no trouble telling when I was I slipping into walking according to the flesh.

In the LC, the partaking of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4) has become a present emphasis to the detriment of the previous verses (2 Pet 1:2-3). We have all things that we need through the knowledge of the one who has called us. We are given promises in the present that we might be partakers in the future. We are put into Christ and we walk according to the Spirit. In that state we grow in the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ so that we might be a testimony of the God and Jesus Christ that we know in the present.

2 Peter begins “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord” and ends “But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” Why is Jesus mentioned without mentioning God in the last verse? Because the whole purpose of God is in Christ.

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him… For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them… According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Eph 1:10, 2:10, 3:11).

“Jesus said "I am the vine and you are the branches..........abide in me and I in you." If the branch does not abide in the vine it becomes withered and is good to be burned. That is my experience. I'm not becoming God......I am just me......the fallen sinner in need of God constantly. I only exibit a change in my life and being as long as I abide in him. If I cease.....I wither away and am just my old self again. I believe this is what is taught in the NT and is real to me. The "becoming God" thing has never been real to me and I don't believe it is what the NT teaches.”

God has used your experience to teach you well. Whether or not I was more fortunate, I learned this same teaching from teaching I received outside of the LC. So when I heard the teaching in the LC, I was able to understand it for what it was. A mistaken understanding of our present purpose on the earth, a mistaken understanding that crops up constantly. It seems that we are always in a hurry to experience things before it is time. We are to simply abide in Christ and walk according to the Spirit and put away the things of the flesh so that we can be the intended testimony in this life. That is truly simple. It is the simplicity that is in Christ. But we are always trying to add our own stuff to that and make it hard.

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Old 02-14-2010, 12:55 PM   #6
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Somehow you missed that teaching on the God-men. T. Neil Duddy put out his book against Lee called “The God-men” in 1977, and an updated edition in 1981. The LC sued the author of that book around that time. Lee must have used the terminology if in no other way than in self defense around the time that the suit was taking place. Maybe other doctrines were more important to you and to the LC at the time you were in the LC. It is almost considered a believe or leave doctrine now because the whole purpose of being in the LC is to become an overcomer, which is also equated with becoming a God-man.
I remember the God-man teachings, but they were never as extreme as this "God in life and nature but not the Godhead" thing that I keep hearing. Duddy's book was more about making something that wasn't there at the time into part of his attack. But no one was pushing that were were "becoming God" in any way that I can recall. Being infused with God, being filled with God, even partaking of the divine nature. But not becoming God.

Did I simply refuse to accept that what was being taught was actually saying that? If so, it would have been because I would never have accepted that as proper teaching. I would have walked out much earlier if that was what I thought was meant.

Or was it an undercurrent in those earlier days that, like Lee not accepting being called an apostle, would eventually be cast aside and the "truth" that he really was The Apostle would become taught? Did this "man becoming God" teaching become stronger over time, taking center stage later on? I guess it could be that I have "fixed" my theology quite a bit over the years (some even without that much willful thought) and didn't recall this one ever being part of it as I look back.
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:26 PM   #7
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Excellent reply OBW.

The "we are becoming God" teaching was an evolving thing over time that is now totally cemented in. The entire LC, in my view, has been an evolving thing over my lifetime. It is no wonder that so many have left over the years.

Over the last year I have been reading a book that gives the history of the Jehovah's Witnesses. It was written by a member who had been deeply involved for over 30 years and finally escaped. The history of that movement, cult, organization....whatever you want to call it was woven into the book. I was amazed at the similarities between their history and that of the LC. What started out as a somewhat loosly knit group of people meeting in different places was slowly and purposly brought under total control of the Watchtower society. So that over the years any kind of independence was terminated and all assemblies were brought to the point of only reading the materials printed and sent out by the Watchtower society.

I know this is getting into a different topic area but the point is that what were once somewhat independent local churches have over time been slowly and purposely brought under control in the same way so that only the printed material of the Living Stream Ministry is promoted and read in the meetings.

The "we are becoming God " teaching is now fully spoken of as absolute truth. Witness Lee the Apostle spoke it.....it has been printed and reprinted in many LSM publications and it "IS" the ministry.

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Old 02-14-2010, 03:53 PM   #8
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Somehow you missed that teaching on the God-men. T. Neil Duddy put out his book against Lee called “The God-men” in 1977, and an updated edition in 1981.
Another red flag to your level of "balance" in this discussion. You know too much to be so non-partisan.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:10 AM   #9
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OBW

For someone who promotes discussion, you make a lot of assumptions. It is clear here and on the other thread. I’m not what you assume me to be, and what I say you seem intent on not understanding. The only “red flag” that I see is the one you keep holding up. If you want me to leave the forum, then just come out and say so.

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Old 02-15-2010, 08:26 AM   #10
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Another red flag to your level of "balance" in this discussion. You know too much to be so non-partisan.
There is no requirement for posters to keep any particular "level of balance" on this forum, at least not in the sense that I think OBW is saying. Now, we are within the "apologetics" board so I would expect everybody to be somewhat restricted to discussions in this area. I don't think that Timelord has made any claim to be a "non-partisan", and even if he did, lets let his propositions, contentions and arguments stand or fall on their merits alone.

One of the few "rules" of this forum is not to engage is deception or subterfuge, with the spirit of the law being "say what you mean and mean what you say". I don't see where Timelord has violated the letter or even the spirit of the law here. But hey, lot's of things get past me, so everybody is more then free to send me a PM, or if they are really upset about a particular post then hit that triangle thingie at the bottom to "report" the post.

In any event I think we owe it to Oregon, the other members and any lurkers out there to maybe go back and re-read his opening post - it's a dandy, and it's worth a lot of consideration, discussion and yes, even argument. (the good kind)

Now, like so many of Witness Lee's teachings, back in the day he would not always come right out and state something in a plain and clear way. Many times it was a matter of "in so many words". Also, Lee was a man of great exaggeration and repetition - it was simply his method to the madness. Many of you oldies but goodies out there know exactly what I am saying here.


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Or was it an undercurrent in those earlier days that, like Lee not accepting being called an apostle, would eventually be cast aside and the "truth" that he really was The Apostle would become taught? Did this "man becoming God" teaching become stronger over time, taking center stage later on?
There were tons and tons of "truths that really were" in the Local Church, and this "God becoming man so that man could become God" concept is just one of many. Looking back, I think we all knew deep down inside that we were not becoming God. We knew it, Witness Lee knew it, other Christians knew it, and God most certainly knew it. But Lee taught, and we all repeated many things back in those days. Now, with the blended brothers it seems they have set some of these teachings in concrete - something that I don't know if even Witness Lee would have done.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:45 PM   #11
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UntoHim

Your mediating voice is welcome, to me at least.

A friend knew of my experience with the LC, and that I seemed to be able to intuitively see what the Bible actually says about many of the extreme positions of Witness Lee. He assumed that I could help former members of the LC to see that the Bible has a different position regarding some things that Lee said and regarding some of the overreactions of the former members of the LC to the teachings of Lee. He told me to check out both the board on the Berean forum and this forum that include predominately former members of the LC.

Unfortunately, there are those in these two locations that have reacted so much to Lee that if one’s position even mentions any thing close to what Lee believes, then the position is the position of Lee. Thus the reaction of OBW to what I have said on this forum. And Aron seems to have simply vanished. Strange since he was the one who started the first thread that I went on. It seemed to me that what the Bible says on the churches was a logical place to begin sharing about what the Bible says about the teachings of the LC, given Lee’s emphasis on the matter.

I knew nothing of either of these forums until my friend told me about them and that they were related to former members of the LC. I am not a member of the LC. I discount much of what Lee says as an extreme position that is not according to the Bible. I believe that was clearly stated in my posts. Apparently OBW was blind to that. And for some reason he wanted to emphasize the Mat 16:18 thing over the actual purpose of a thread on the churches. OBW doesn’t think that I could have possibly learned anything in the six months that I was actively engaged with the LC. I am a college kid and a voracious reader. And he apparently doesn’t think that I know how to use the internet, which is where I found something more exact about the God-men book than what I had heard about from one of the LC members. And he apparently thinks that it is impossible that I have had great help in growing in the Christian faith by people who know the Bible better than me, and far better than most on these forums.

If one asks questions in a judicious manner of the members of the LC, they are often very forthcoming about what they believe to be their own history and beliefs. I haven’t spent almost four years in college without learning how to ask judicious questions. What is sad is that apparently many of the former members of the LC must be treated with the same kid gloves as so many in the LC and the professors in college.

This will be my last post with these former members. I can see that most are little Witness Lee’s attempting to understand the Bible in the same way that he did, by interpreting the Bible so that it means to them according to their own preconceived ideas. And for those who continue in that manner, they will be ever searching for the truth without ever finding it. And I really don’t have time to share with people who only believe in the Bible insofar as it agrees with their own “vision”. College takes up a lot of my time. And I know too many people with whom I can share without that kind of aggravation.

My friend thought that former members of the LC would be more ready to see what the Bible actually says having already experienced the extreme position of the LC. That is of course impossible with people who are in a state of reaction, especially overreaction as with some of these people. I do not blame my friend. He had no way of knowing that such an extreme position as the LC would breed overreactions equal to that position. I on the other hand should have seen what was going on immediately, and I think that I did to some degree. Just not enough to keep me from coming on this forum in the first place.

I feel sorry for these particular former members of the LC. But I feel more for those who are much closer to me. Perhaps our Lord put these particular former members of the LC together for a purpose. What that purpose is I do not know. Another reason why I see no reason to continue on here. I only hope that they will learn to help one another instead of continuing to have fruitless discussions. And maybe they are helping one another in their own way. I hope so.

sister Carol

Concerning your two posts on the LCS factor thread, I must say, Amen.

It is good to hear from one who is content in the state that she is in and looks to Jesus alone for any change in that state that might occur. The lack of contentment is, I believe, a major reason for so many marital problems. That may account for so many saying that their split was over money. They do not realize that they make marriage seem like a bad thing. I am so thankful that among those who I fellowship with, this kind of thing is not common. The majority are content whether single or married. For me, marriage has such good potential for helping one another in the good and the bad times. But perhaps I am prejudiced. My fiancé, Lori, and I are best friends and we have been helping each other for years. We are blessed to have met in high school. We have agreed to marry in three years when we both will be through with college. And we have agreed that best friends is what we will always be in the Lord. We may not yet be married, but we both feel that we are already well on the way to oneness.

And we really appreciate how you are using Satan’s holiday against him. Lori and I have just been discussing this and we have agreed to start doing something like this, not only in relation to this holiday, but in relation to Christmas and Easter too. Children are involved in those holidays as well. And using cards or some such thing is natural in all three situations. So thank you for the idea.

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Old 02-20-2010, 08:50 AM   #12
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Default Re: God became man that man might become God

Thank YOU Timelord for your kind, encouraging words to me.

Yes...there are some who are ADAMANTLY bitter towards Witness Lee and his ministry. They refuse to allow themselves to admit they were helped and had wonderful fellowship and blessings there at one time. And if they do, they don't dwell on it. They prefer to tear everything about the LC down... EVERYTHING. They look for any positive moment to turn it into a negative.

But everyone's experience is different. I did not have a BAD experience in my tenure from 1975-78/79. Did I go through spiritual bootcamp as I look to put it. YES !!! But that was my training ground to build me up into the person I am in Christ Jesus today. I am forever grateful for my time there.

However, for me to use the training tools I was given, I like to say, I had to go to the battlefield and the wilderness and had to by leaving bootcamp.

I never regarded Brother Lee as my spiritual 'father' while I did enjoy reading the life study messages. I loved/love my spiritual father in San Diego, John Smith who truly took care of the flock there...he, his wife Sonia and the church in San Diego were wonderful...at least they were to me.

I do not read Lee's works anymore but I do read Watchman Nee's...(and others). But mostly I am trying to read the WORD of GOD more. Enough messages/books/CD teachings/DVD teachings. We need to get back to the WORD of GOD for ourselves. Spend time reading/meditating and being enlightened by the Holy Spirit for He is the One Who reveals Christ in US, the HOPE of GLORY.

Oh...and Aaron is Alan on the other forum btw.

And P.S.
If you and Lori remain best friends throughout your marriage with Christ being numero UNO in both of your lives, you will have an Anointed and Blessed marriage for sure !


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sister Carol

Concerning your two posts on the LCS factor thread, I must say, Amen.

It is good to hear from one who is content in the state that she is in and looks to Jesus alone for any change in that state that might occur. The lack of contentment is, I believe, a major reason for so many marital problems. That may account for so many saying that their split was over money. They do not realize that they make marriage seem like a bad thing. I am so thankful that among those who I fellowship with, this kind of thing is not common. The majority are content whether single or married. For me, marriage has such good potential for helping one another in the good and the bad times. But perhaps I am prejudiced. My fiancé, Lori, and I are best friends and we have been helping each other for years. We are blessed to have met in high school. We have agreed to marry in three years when we both will be through with college. And we have agreed that best friends is what we will always be in the Lord. We may not yet be married, but we both feel that we are already well on the way to oneness.

And we really appreciate how you are using Satan’s holiday against him. Lori and I have just been discussing this and we have agreed to start doing something like this, not only in relation to this holiday, but in relation to Christmas and Easter too. Children are involved in those holidays as well. And using cards or some such thing is natural in all three situations. So thank you for the idea.

Timelord
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:16 AM   #13
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Oh...and Aaron is Alan on the other forum btw.
cmw,

I like changing my names as I make the "jump" in cyberspace. It's a Star Trek thing.

I think TimeLord is an excellent writer. Very well put together for "a college kid". But I didn't have anything to say to him. He'll do fine without my input.

He said I was "negatively obsessed"; which might have a grain of truth, so I took it as an admonition from the Lord. Any posters on a site about Lee & the Local Churches might be seen to be so tinged with "negativity".

I have tried to be positive. Both my experiences in the Local Churches and my subsequent experiences of Christ have been very positive to me. I disagree with some of their doctrines & practices, of course, but I guess we all are different in some ways. But anyway, I took Timelord's comments as "from the Lord"; it's the safe thing to do I guess. I'm trying not to become negative.

I would like to think that I am positively obsessed. My role model in this is the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4. She ran around to everyone, saying, "Come and see! This man told me everything I have done -- is this not the Christ?"

I feel positively "focused" on a couple of things which I've uncovered in the last couple of years, and which I try to share with everyone. The first is about the apostle John, what he "saw" there on the island of Patmos. To me it opens the whole NT, and makes sense of subsequent christian history. The Revelation of John became the lens for me to view events in the OT, in the Gospels and Acts and Epistles. And suddenly everything "made sense" to me. I tried to share the gist of this idea. But I don't expect Timelord or anyone to read my 400+ posts and make sense of the story!!

The second thing I've seen, and I uncovered it on this forum, is the idea of the "ekklesia" being translated as what we in the local churches would call a "meeting". The ekklesia is the assembly, the gathering together of the called-out ones. Any 2 or 3 gathered in the Lord's name, blessed with His presence, is qualified as an "ekklesia". I can guarantee you this changed my spiritual life. When meeting with others, instead of trying to recruit them to some group, I just have "ekklesia" with them. We gather and thank and praise the Lord; we bless and extol the virtues of the One who was and is and is coming; we encourage and strengthen each other's faith. And we can "feel" God's building work in us. Amazing.

Anyway I appreciated Timelord's comments immensely but didn't have the capacity to add something of value. Glad you were able to connect.

Peace & grace, as always. I always love your judicious use of CAPITAL letters. I get a charge every time I read your posts.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:45 AM   #14
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This particular teaching has been quite a bother to me.....even when I was attending the meetings of the LC. I hope I am not repeating earlier postings although the chance of that being so is probably quite high since this became the central theme of Witness Lee's view and thoughts concerning what he termed...."God's economy". Even though the words and something of the thought can be traced back to Athanasius, this does not at all put any kind of doctrinal authoritative stamp of approval on it....at least not to me. I've asked my brother....a full time participant in the LC this simple question. Why didn't the apostles use this kind of language, especially the apostle Paul, in any of their writings. Of course he had no answer but simply looked at me.

After having been in the local churches for most of my adult life......having pray read literally tens of thousands of hours......called "Oh Lord Jesus"(blessed be our wonderful Lord...not to discredit our Lord at all) umpteen times.....I believe that I have not become one wit more God in life and nature than I was when I first came into the LC at age 17. Peter says we partake of the divine nature. I believe this and feel that I certainly have. Paul says we behold and reflect.....I know this is true also....but becoming God in life and nature.......I have huge questions and doubts about this. My personal experience is this When I stop beholding......I stop reflecting. When I don't partake of the divine nature.....I certainly don't manifest it in my own life.

To me.....it's more like ......the light in the kitchen is either on or off. It didn't slowly become on. Paul said ...."walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh". That is my life and I have no doubt it is yours also. If I walk in the Spirit then I am partaking of the divine nature and I can reflect the one I am beholding. If I don't......I will fulfill the lust of the flesh. Now where in this scenario did I become God in life and nature. I simply participated in the life and nature of another. When I ceased to participate....I was just my fallen self again. How did I become God in life and nature. I suppose for whatever the length of time I walked in the Spirit I experinced God as my life and nature.......I can certainly believe this and see no conflict with what is presented in the writings of the apostles. "Becoming God" though.......that's a whole different story. Thoughts anyone?
Lately, one thought keeps coming to me regarding the teaching of "Man becoming God." How can they exert so much energy trying to convince people that they are turning into God, when they have so much trouble just being men?

When all is said and done, the only thing that we are to be concerned with is knowing Him. This was Paul's word to the Philippians at a time when he thought he may well have been sitting on death row.

Being able to dissect and fully know all the ins and outs of the "Triune God"? I don't think so. There is no verbiage in the Bible requiring us to nail a doctrine of the Trinity, and there is no verbiage telling us that we are turning into God.

I believe that Witness Lee, and now his lieutenants, are too obsessed with becoming "giants in the industry." They obsess with being the authority on this, and the authority on that. If they would be more concerned with actually knowing the Lord Jesus, maybe they wouldn't find themselves in court so much fighting their brothers.

Paul himself (one of the supposed "apostles for the age") said that knowing all mysteries means nothing if you don't have love. Yet, LSM is anxious to let everybody know that they have nailed all the mysteries concerning the Triune God, and the ultimate anatomical details of how He is dealing with man. They have misaimed, and missed the mark. That is the definition of sin.

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Old 02-22-2010, 12:30 PM   #15
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Lately, one thought keeps coming to me regarding the teaching of "Man becoming God." How can they exert so much energy trying to convince people that they are turning into God, when they have so much trouble just being men?
How true! As I was leaving the LC's, the singlemost troublesome matter on my heart (though there were many) was that we who have given our lives to the recovery, which I like to call "the program," don't know how to treat one another. How can we be men if we can't treat others as men. As I thought at that time, "this program produces bullies out of beloved brothers." I watched that happen on all levels, and could only conclude that this disease was systemic to the teachings of exclusivity.

The Bible is filled with healthy admonitions on how we should relate one to another. We should love our neighbor as ourself. We should even love our enemies. How much more the household of the faith. Yet the prominent "god-men," so highly esteemed among the LC's, can't even treat their own with respect. Only they could twist I Cor 6 into saying that we MUST take our brothers to court if we have "no other recourse."

Such is the fruit of the "high peak teachings." Something portrayed as the "peak" of all Christian theology, something which took 2,000 years of "recovery" to fully "consummate," something supposedly lost for all church history since the days of Athanasius, something which the initial apostles "wanted" to say but had not the opportunity or the maturity, something which was supposed to revolutionize our Christian walk and bring about the revival to end all revivals ... ends with quarantines and lawsuits over ones teaching "differently" from the "minister of the age."
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Old 02-22-2010, 03:53 PM   #16
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CMW,I always love your judicious use of CAPITAL letters. I get a charge every time I read your posts.
Why Thank You. Perhaps because like you, I am 'positively obsessed' with the WORD of GOD-Jesus ! So us birds of a feather, simply flock together.

I have not been reading the forums much. I have been 'positively charged' in ministering/discipling/fellowshipping/praying/reading the Word of God with my friends.

The LORD JEHOVAH is such a wonderful GOD and how blessed and highly FAVORED we are to be in His Kingdom, to be sons of God and kings and priests unto HIM. Sometimes when I get attacked, I look at the enemy and tell him...look here you ugly devil. Don't mess with me. I'm the daughter of the most HIGH GOD...the One who created you and if He wants to all He has to do is speak a word to you and you will have not only no power but he could eradicate you forever if HE wishes. He could do it right now, this second. But He is waiting for that DAY to execute your judgment and if I were you I'd scurry out of here in trembling with much fear for the GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is at hand !

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I like changing my names as I make the "jump" in cyberspace. It's a Star Trek thing.
And I say: BEAM US UP LORD JESUS ! BEAM US UP ! I know you like changing your name but I was not sure TimeLord knew this or not.

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My role model in this is the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4. She ran around to everyone, saying, "Come and see! This man told me everything I have done -- is this not the Christ?"
I LOVE the story of the Samaritan woman ! I must 'confess' I loved the explanation in the Life Study of John on the Samaritan woman. It helped me understand how people indeed are not satisfied with the things of this world. It holds true even today. All we need to do is LOOK at how quickly everything in Technology is churning and being spit out ! They barely come out with some I-POD gadget and before you know it they have the I-POD Excel 4.0 super turbo...or some nonsensical sensation ! And the hoards of people can't hardly wait to get to the store at midnight when it is going to go on sale !

Aww...if only they knew that JESUS, our Precious, Sweet LORD JESUS is the living water that forever satisfies our thirst. When we say LORD JESUS....we say it all.

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...things which I've uncovered in the last couple of years, and which I try to share with everyone. The first is about the apostle John, what he "saw" there on the island of Patmos. ..... I tried to share the gist of this idea. But I don't expect Timelord or anyone to read my 400+ posts and make sense of the story!!
Read 400 posts to make sense of the story!! Is it possible to condense it into ONE LONG Post ? I have been studying Revelation for some time now but it goes hand in hand with Daniel and Ezekiel & 1 Thessalonians 4 and many other books...OH...not leaving out EXODUS... Genesis and Exodus are also connected to the book of Revelation. Isn't it wonderful how the LORD reveals His secrets to His servants ?

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The second thing I've seen, and I uncovered it on this forum, is the idea of the "ekklesia" being translated as what we in the local churches would call a "meeting". The ekklesia is the assembly, the gathering together of the called-out ones. Any 2 or 3 gathered in the Lord's name, blessed with His presence, is qualified as an "ekklesia". I can guarantee you this changed my spiritual life.
Mine too !!! I don't know what 'locality' you were in when in the LC and for how long and what years. I was in San Diego from 75'-79 approx. It was overall a very good church life filled with 'young people' in their 20s. I got saved through the brethren there and it was my spiritual training ground...I'm sure you know my story as I have shared it time and time again.

Well.....in the past few months, my friends have been bringing up some questions about.....our spirit...our human spirit. I began explaining it to them and so I pulled out 'The Release of the Spirit' by Nee. Can you believe how that book has helped my one friend who is reading it right now. She thanks me profusely for the encouragement I've given her. Then last night, we listened to a Psalms song CD which used to be a reel to reel tape. It was made in 1975 possibly Dallas but I have an old San Diego friend who thinks it may have been made in San Diego. I think it was made in Dallas and later San Diego made another one. You might remember many of the Psalms we sang back in the 70s if you were in the 'church life' back then.

She jumped for joy when I played it. We spontaneously began to sing the Psalms together. I have seen some threads on 'Oneness'. My friend and I have been experiencing 'oneness' in Christ for a few weeks now. And you know what ? This is almost scary.....but TRUE. I have been drilling into her scriptures about walking in spirit...and all the scriptures we learned about our human spirit that is ONE with the Holy, Life Giving Spirit. She told me yesterday she FINALLY understands why she has struggled with sin and the world for the last 20 years. She prayed last night or this morning after reading the chapters on Brokenness in Nee's book on releasing the spirit at her house. She prayed for the Lord to break her soul so her spirit could be released because the book gave her soo much insight and revelation and understanding all her struggles as a Christian. I did not push her to do anything. I simply offered her to read the book since SHE was asking me all kinds of questions.

I want her to be strong in the LORD and in His Word that she might be used mightily for the Kingdom, to the Glory of GOD ALMIGHTY, shaming the devil and his minions. I'm teaching her to walk in her position as a king and priest unto the Most High God that she might reflect as in a mirror the GLORY of the LORD so that her family and friends will see the NEW Creation in her..out with the old...in with NEWNESS of LIFE in Christ Jesus ! But I'm not pushing 'church'...except to explain how WE, the anointed believers in Christ are the church. Where ever we are we are meeting as the church. We were in the hospital at her father's bedside playing the Psalm music CD.

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When meeting with others, instead of trying to recruit them to some group, I just have "ekklesia" with them. We gather and thank and praise the Lord; we bless and extol the virtues of the One who was and is and is coming; we encourage and strengthen each other's faith. And we can "feel" God's building work in us. Amazing
IT IS Brother Alan/Aron !! It is AMAZING !! Oh...Amazing Grace ...how sweet the sound, huh ? (I've used up all my smilies so I can't insert any, anymore. ARRGH !!) I HATE recruiting people into some group. We are called to recruit people to Jesus and to disciple them that they would in turn would grow strong and bring others to Jesus and disciple them. Didn't Jesus say go out and disciple the nations ? I don't recall reading recruit them into an organization or a group. BUT I do believe we, at least I received true revelation of the church and the body of Christ through the ministry we were under...Nee's teachings and of course Lee's. Sadly something went awry. Still what Satan meant for evil, GOD will as He always does turn it to good.

God is UP to something awesome !! Of course, I think the Father is getting ready to RELEASE His Son Jesus that He might descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the Archangel and with the TRUMP...so that the dead in Christ will rise first and then WE who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the Air. We are getting ready to meet our Bridegroom - KING JESUS !!! Come Lord Jesus ! Come TODAY...don't Delay !
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:43 PM   #17
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I'm not pushing 'church'...except to explain how WE, the anointed believers in Christ are the church. Where ever we are we are meeting as the church. We were in the hospital at her father's bedside playing the Psalm music CD.
You made my day. Like Paul said, "I am with you in spirit".
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:38 PM   #18
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Witness Lee's teaching on deification was the climax of his teaching on dispensing and on "eating Jesus". Since God wants to dispense Himself into man, and we participate in this dispensing by eating, and we become what we eat... Then... Here comes divinisation.

Lee described our union with the Lord in terms of "mingling". However, in 1 Cor. 6:17 our union with the Lord is likened to the union of husband and wife, who become "one flesh". I and my wife are one flesh, but it does not mean that we are "mingled" or that she is becoming me in life and nature.

This is one of the biggest drawbacks of Lee's theology - it is too mechanical and physical, rather than relational. In this way our humanity is devalued. We, humans, have to change... into God. Of course, many verses about transformation can be employed to back up this teaching about "becoming God". But you know what? The Word says that we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. Through Christ, God showed us how the real man should look like. Therefore, transformation into the image of Christ is becoming real humans (as we were meant to be), not God.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:38 PM   #19
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Lee described our union with the Lord in terms of "mingling". However, in 1 Cor. 6:17 our union with the Lord is likened to the union of husband and wife, who become "one flesh". I and my wife are one flesh, but it does not mean that we are "mingled" or that she is becoming me in life and nature.
"Mingle, mingle hallelujah!"....remember that one guys?

As it turns out, "mingling" is not a concept taught by the Lord Jesus nor by the scripture writing apostles. Lee took some rather unrelated Old Testament figures and types and tried to squeeze them into New Testament theology - really his brand of NT theology. The resultant mess is what is taught in the LC as "God's economy" - that God is mingling with man and man is mingling with God to make us into "God-men" who are "becoming God in life and nature" (..but not in the Godhead) This concept has been taught for so long now in the LC that they actually think it's "orthodox" and that the common teachings regarding sanctification in the evangelical churches are "poor and degraded".

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This is one of the biggest drawbacks of Lee's theology - it is too mechanical and physical, rather than relational. In this way our humanity is devalued. We, humans, have to change... into God. Of course, many verses about transformation can be employed to back up this teaching about "becoming God". But you know what? The Word says that we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. Through Christ, God showed us how the real man should look like. Therefore, transformation into the image of Christ is becoming real humans (as we were meant to be), not God.
Ah, there's the KEY WORD..."RELATIONAL". Thanks KSA. It took me a long, long time after coming out from underneath Witness Lee's teachings before I realized that God does not want to mingle with us...He does not want us to eat Him...and He certainly does not want us to become Him. What he wants IS TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM! We don't have a relationship with food! But we DO have a relationship with our father and our brother. The Lord Jesus called God OUR FATHER and he called himself OUR BROTHER and OUR FRIEND. This all all titles of RELATIONSHIPS.

While I was reading and considering this I also was reminded of this verse, Hebrews 4:15.
.
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Yet another title for the Lord Jesus that indicates a relationship - High Priest. In this case a High Priest who is not only to be listened to and learn from and obey...but one who can sympathize with our weaknesses. Something tells me that the writer of Hebrews was taking a little jab at all those unsympathetic human high priests of the day. Or maybe it was the apostle Paul himself (suspected by many as being the writer of Hebrews) taking jabs at himself, as he was once a "Hebrew of Hebrews" and realized how unsympathetic he was towards others, and realized that the Lord Jesus was the real High Priest with whom we desperately needed a relationship.

Thanks again KSA! So good to hear from you again. Hope all is well with you and yours.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:38 PM   #20
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This is one of the biggest drawbacks of Lee's theology - it is too mechanical and physical, rather than relational.
This is so true. Looking back I saw examples of this everywhere. Actually WL's Theology was "relational," but that relationship was only with WL, while all other relationships suffered.

So many broken homes and divorces. It is an "honor" to pass thru divorce, and still be consecrated to the Recovery. We were taught that the top relationship known to man was our relationship with the ministry.

Friendships were condemned as natural "honey" damaging God's testimony. Friends and family relationships were all expendable as long as we stay faithful to the ministry.

Even spiritual companionships, touted as archetypes for God's building, such as the one between Titus Chu and Benjamen Chen, lasting 54 years, must be laid on the altar, once the Quarantine gods begin to move.

The saying "WWJD" was continually condemned by the ministry, but they were at least asking what Jesus was doing, thus seeking God for direction, rather than the LC's which only asked WWWLD -- what was WL doing -- thus every schedule on earth must revolve around LSM's.

Most importantly we were instructed not to trust the anointing within because we could be deceived. It was far safer to "trust the brothers." Thus our relationship with the Lord got stunted.

Since our relationship with WL was the highest on earth, we were taught to condemn and quarantine all that he determined to judge, thus the relationship with our conscience was damaged. For some irreparably.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:43 PM   #21
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This is one of the biggest drawbacks of Lee's theology - it is too mechanical and physical, rather than relational. In this way our humanity is devalued. We, humans, have to change... into God. Of course, many verses about transformation can be employed to back up this teaching about "becoming God". But you know what? The Word says that we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. Through Christ, God showed us how the real man should look like. Therefore, transformation into the image of Christ is becoming real humans (as we were meant to be), not God.
My wife, who has determined that she will not waste time on these forums, has constantly complained that the one thing that stood out to her as the biggest error in the LC was the teaching that we don't count and our uniqueness is irrelevant and God doesn't want us. He just wants Himself walking around in our body.

That is a true heresy. It is anti-Christian at its core.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:45 PM   #22
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Most importantly we were instructed not to trust the anointing within because we could be deceived. It was far safer to "trust the brothers." Thus our relationship with the Lord got stunted.
And I recall that in some of the first meetings I ever attended, they were going over the verses in 1 John (2 John??) "you have an anointing from the Holy One. . .." Hard to swallow that we were told it was true, then denied the right to use it.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:42 PM   #23
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My wife, who has determined that she will not waste time on these forums, has constantly complained that the one thing that stood out to her as the biggest error in the LC was the teaching that we don't count and our uniqueness is irrelevant and God doesn't want us. He just wants Himself walking around in our body.

That is a true heresy. It is anti-Christian at its core
.
Well ... OBW ... I guess you and I have a lot in common.

My wife got fed up with TC calling us all "Mr. Zero." Everybody was a big Zero, except TC, that is.

TC had another saying he loved to repeat. A C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n means "CHRIST plus I And Nothing." With sayings like this, he could berate just about everything there is about a saint.

She also remembers that TC never had a nice thing to say about the Church in Cleveland Hall #1, his home church. I guess, eventually what he prophesied came true. Even the elders were continually put down by TC.

That's just the way it is.
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Old 07-27-2010, 07:34 PM   #24
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I don't have much time to respond.........but here's my .02 worth.

When I first came to the LC in 1975, 2 things drew me in: I fell in love with JESUS. I experienced His Cleansing Blood and my deliverance from a foul mouth, cigs and pot.

2) I was thrilled to be around Christians who LOVED and talked about JESUS & His WORD.

After sometime............we all know the story.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:04 AM   #25
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I would say that "becoming God" teaching manifests the "escapist" tendency not uncommon among all the Christians. Christians dream of going to heaven, neglecting the fact that God wants man to possess the earth. Christians dream of pre-trib rapture to avoid manifesting the resurrection life amid the tribulations and being martyrs unto the ends of the earth. Christians dream of becoming God to escape the responsibilities of being proper humans. However, we have to face the fact that our humanity is damaged and trust that God values us as we are and wants to restore us.
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Old 07-28-2010, 06:21 PM   #26
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...Christians dream of becoming God to escape the responsibilities of being proper humans. However, we have to face the fact that our humanity is damaged and trust that God values us as we are and wants to restore us.
Wowee Zowee KSA, pretty heavy duty observation there! You nailed it...this is exactly what false religion really is at it's core...it's man trying to escape the responsibilities of being a proper human. We have heard that religion is "man trying to reach God apart from God", which is also objectively true, but your definition really hits home as it relates to the Local Church. What we never realized is that before God can restore (recover) the Church, FIRST he has to restore (recover) US. Witness Lee had it backwards - that a bunch of unrecovered humans (all the while escaping the responsibilities of being proper humans) could just come together in a meeting hall, pray-read and call on the Lord, and become the recovered Church. Rather silly notion now that I think about it.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:50 AM   #27
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KSA, you hit the nail on the head. The LC was unhealthily caught it in their own condition and status before the Lord--"being transformed" to "make the kingdom." Everything was about them being perfected. But being perfected is something that takes place "behind us," so to speak, as we focus on being obedient and serving God and others in this life. If we stay on mission, perfection takes place. But we usually only notice it in retrospect. If we are alway looking for it and fretting about it, it's less likely to happen.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #28
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My problem with this teaching is that I don't believe I am becoming God.......I believe I am entering into God and abiding in Him and partaking of what he is. To me that is a very different thought. The LC people are looking for some kind of transformation in their being over time that will be a vindication of this truth. Many have become discouraged and even fallen away over the years because this so called change never happens. In my thought.....it isn't supposed to happen and isn't going to happen. It's a flawed teaching that sets people up for great disapointment.

Jesus said "I am the vine and you are the branches..........abide in me and I in you." If the branch does not abide in the vine it becomes withered and is good to be burned. That is my experience. I'm not becoming God......I am just me......the fallen sinner in need of God constantly. I only exibit a change in my life and being as long as I abide in him. If I cease.....I wither away and am just my old self again. I believe this is what is taught in the NT and is real to me. The "becoming God" thing has never been real to me and I don't believe it is what the NT teaches.
We need to do some Bible study. God did indeed say he would sanctify us completely as if it were a process, because of these verses:
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 "

Notice he said "He will surely" sanctify us completely. Another verse says he disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. Discipline is definitely a process.

"For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. Hebrews 12:10 "

Being sanctified completely means we will become God in his sanctified nature, which means we will become him in his nature.

Witness Lee points out we are partakers of the divine nature, which is clearly stated in 2 Peter 1:4:
"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4 "

As for becoming life, being God in his life means that we will share his imperishable or incorruptible property. This equates to us being transformed into an imperishable body in the resurrection. We will become imperishable beings in the resurrection according to 1 Corinthians 15:50-57; thus, we will become God in his life.

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 "

Though we are partakers of the divine nature and life of God, we are not somewhat different from God because of 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 which says we should not proclaim to follow anyone but Christ. He is still our head shepherd. Because we can only worship the Head (Revelation 19:10), this makes us different from the Head because none of us are allowed to worship saints.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:14 AM   #29
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Being sanctified completely means we will become God in his sanctified nature, which means we will become him in his nature.
And training a monkey to talk means that it has become a human in nature. NOT.

This line of reasoning begins with a presumption that is not made in scripture — that man is incapable of righteousness and therefore must be replaced by God, thereby becoming God in some way, to be obedient to the command to be holy.

But throughout scripture God has said, both to the people of the OT and to those who followed and/or heard Jesus, to obey, be righteous, prefer justice (not American justice, but justice toward the widow, orphan, poor, alien), and so forth. When Jesus said it, he did not then do an aside to the closest disciples and say "and now watch them fail miserably until I die and resurrect and can get into them." It is true that this was a tremendous help in the process. But where is the replacement theology coming from?

Is this all about us becoming more than Adam was before the fall? Or restoring us to that place? If the former, then was Adam God in nature? Nothing convinces me that is so.

But a man who despised so much of the righteousness of God tells us that he, and we, become God in sanctification. I don't think so. (Actually, I don't think Lee would know what sanctification was if God appeared to him in broad daylight and spelled it out. He would reject it as a trick of Satan.) The scripture ways that we gain some of His nature, not that we become God (or god). We become more Christlike, not more Christ. We become more what we were made to be — humans, on the earth, exercising authority over the earth, and having God as our source of knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil.

Man can partake of the nature of God without becoming God. Lee's version is a claim not supported by scripture.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:17 AM   #30
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This is also a teaching of the Catholic church doctrine.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:38 AM   #31
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And training a monkey to talk means that it has become a human in nature. NOT.
Col 3.11 says Jesus is us! We are the branches and he is the vine; we can't do anything without him. If apart from him we can do nothing then it is evident our holiness does not come from ourselves; it comes from God. Look at it this way: you yourself said that righteousness from man was filthy rags. If EVERYTHING that came from man were filthy rags, then it is evident that righteousness as well as all the good things like sanctification is Jesus himself, proving that indeed our sanctification is God himself.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:01 PM   #32
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Col 3.11 says Jesus is us! We are the branches and he is the vine; we can't do anything without him.
That is a simplistic error in grammar. You are asserting that because a metaphor of a vine and its branches exists that every aspect that can be milked from the metaphor must be true. Since a vine and its branches are one thing (entirely one thing) then you assert that this metaphor must mean that man is entirely the same thing as God.

But it is talking about a source of supply, not of identity. A branch receives its nutrition from the trunk (the vine). If you cut it off, it cannot do anything but die. This is classic over-application of a metaphor.

Neither Col 3:11 or any other verse that you want to bring out says that Jesus is us. Of course Lee said that it was "simply" so. And we all bought it, hook, line and sinker. But that is because we accepted that he was the ultimate authority and we did not even use our brains to see the error in his teaching.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:29 PM   #33
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What do you suppose Christ being all of the new self means then?:
"Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:9-11 1 "
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:42 PM   #34
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What do you suppose Christ being all of the new self means then?:
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"Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:9-11 1 "
Once again, there is an attempt to make something simple and straightforward so extreme that it might be easier to get a camel through the literal eye of a needle.

Within the context, and consistent with other passages, this is talking about the source from which we operate. Our mindset. Our worldview. Many ways to say it, each with a different slant on what it is talking about.

But no matter the wording, it is another way of saying what Paul said in another place when he said to "have the mind of Christ." If you want to argue that means to literally have Christ's mind implanted in your head in the place of your own, feel free. But it is not a reasonable meaning. Instead, it is talking about following. About being and doing. Not about being replaced. "Think like Christ did." "Put yourselves in his shoes and act like he did. Don't keep acting like the heathen that you used to be."

The context here in Colossians 3 is that Paul is telling them to quit lying. And he underscores that the Christian life is one of putting off the old ways and putting on new ways that are "renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." Not being made into its creator, but into the image of its creator. Interesting that before the fall, we were said to be in the image of the creator. "Let us make man in our image." God didn't say "let us make another God." Just a new creation that is in his image.

It probably looks like I am just fighting Lee and the LRC. But there is a huge library of truth in scripture and he majored on such a small part of it. And misunderstood too much of what he majored on. And we all, with unengaged minds, simply took it in and didn't stop to read the words of scripture that were contorted to say what we would never have come up with. Doesn't it ever bother you that way too much of Lee's teachings required you to dump what the plain words said and instead accept something else as true?

This kind of thinking about Colossians 3 is a great example. Paul is talking about the stopping of an outward behavior. He uses the metaphor of putting off and putting on of a personae in the same way that we would talk about changing clothes. But he says we have done it. Note that he is telling people who "have put off . . ." to stop lying. He is not saying that if you put of and put on you will stop lying. He is saying "stop lying because you have . . ." You have a basis. A way. Peter may have actually said it better when he generically said that we have everything required for godliness. We don't need to go get it. We need to use what we have. He and Paul are on the same page in this matter.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:13 PM   #35
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Once again, there is an attempt to make something simple and straightforward so extreme that it might be easier to get a camel through the literal eye of a needle.

Within the context, and consistent with other passages, this is talking about the source from which we operate. Our mindset. Our worldview. Many ways to say it, each with a different slant on what it is talking about.

But no matter the wording, it is another way of saying what Paul said in another place when he said to "have the mind of Christ." If you want to argue that means to literally have Christ's mind implanted in your head in the place of your own, feel free. But it is not a reasonable meaning. Instead, it is talking about following. About being and doing. Not about being replaced. "Think like Christ did." "Put yourselves in his shoes and act like he did. Don't keep acting like the heathen that you used to be."

The context here in Colossians 3 is that Paul is telling them to quit lying. And he underscores that the Christian life is one of putting off the old ways and putting on new ways that are "renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." Not being made into its creator, but into the image of its creator. Interesting that before the fall, we were said to be in the image of the creator. "Let us make man in our image." God didn't say "let us make another God." Just a new creation that is in his image.

It probably looks like I am just fighting Lee and the LRC. But there is a huge library of truth in scripture and he majored on such a small part of it. And misunderstood too much of what he majored on. And we all, with unengaged minds, simply took it in and didn't stop to read the words of scripture that were contorted to say what we would never have come up with. Doesn't it ever bother you that way too much of Lee's teachings required you to dump what the plain words said and instead accept something else as true?

This kind of thinking about Colossians 3 is a great example. Paul is talking about the stopping of an outward behavior. He uses the metaphor of putting off and putting on of a personae in the same way that we would talk about changing clothes. But he says we have done it. Note that he is telling people who "have put off . . ." to stop lying. He is not saying that if you put of and put on you will stop lying. He is saying "stop lying because you have . . ." You have a basis. A way. Peter may have actually said it better when he generically said that we have everything required for godliness. We don't need to go get it. We need to use what we have. He and Paul are on the same page in this matter.
Are we one spirit with God? :
"'The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 "
"“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32 "

Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:59 PM   #36
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Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "
Exodus 3.5 "Take the shoes off of your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."

David, according to your crazy logic, the ground is also God.

Imagine that folks, the ground we walk on is God.

Quick everybody, kick off your shoes!
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:54 AM   #37
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Are we one spirit with God? :
"'The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 "
"“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32 "

Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "
It is clear that language is not your forte. English or otherwise. And in this case, the ways of speech at the times of the various writings along with how we translate it, and update it, are very meaningful.

So Jesus says we love one and hate another. Never just ignore anything. But that is not true. It is a figure of speech to make emphasis. In the passages you site, the references to God's holiness make it clear that "holy" is an accurate description of everything about God. Yet we are called to be holy. And this was stated by God himself. We clearly understand this to mean that we have a goal — a calling. We actually have a charge to be something that we, by birth, are otherwise not. We are fallen, sinful, and very decidedly unholy.

So God is truly holy. Yet we are called to be holy as well. Yes, our ability to be truly holy is predicated upon the renewing, leading, and guiding of the true Holy One who is now in our "hearts." And as we walk in that light (in the Spirit) we can actually achieve holiness — at least at the level at which we were created to be holy as image-bearers of God.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:43 AM   #38
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And as we walk in that light (in the Spirit) we can actually achieve holiness — at least at the level at which we were created to be holy as image-bearers of God.
So you agree that we become holy, making my point.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:07 AM   #39
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So you agree that we become holy, making my point.
Only if your point is that we do become holy. But that is decidedly not your point. Unless I am misreading you, you have gone to great lengths to try to establish that somehow we become Christ, or Christ becomes us.

That is the point that you started with when you said "Col 3.11 says Jesus is us!" But Colossians does not say that. You counter by putting the passage in a post reading "Christ is all, and in all." And no one has said that this is not true. But that does not make Christ simply us. Or us simply Christ.

And then you post the passage in Revelation that says "For you alone are holy." So I explain how that statement, as true as it is, does not deny that we can be holy without actually being Christ. But you do not counter my argument, just misrepresent it by saying "So you agree that we become holy, making my point."

If your desire is debate, you should at least beware that I am not your average fool. (I am clearly an above-average fool — and this is where a tongue-in-cheek smiley would come in handy.)

If your desire is to have a discussion among reasonable people about the meaning of certain passages (in a sort of "come, let us reason" mode) then you need to be as willing to actually consider and respond to what I say as I am to what you say. So far, I have provided reasonable analysis of your "points" yet you have simply run to different evidence without responding to what I say. Then you obviously don't respond to my last post, but act as if I have said something consistent with what you are saying. If you read scripture like you responded to my comments the it would not seem that there is any actual good-faith effort to discuss.

Prove me wrong.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:43 PM   #40
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Sorry, I didn't know if God's nature was his holiness. Please forgive me.
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