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Old 05-11-2012, 07:37 AM   #1
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Default One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

I just want to go on record as having said this. It’s only fair.

I’ve often wondered: If as we say, Witness Lee got so many things wrong, what was it that drew us to him, and what continues to be compelling about him?

I thought about it and decided that, for me, it was really one thing: His admonishment to ENJOY CHRIST.

After all these years, this one idea is still so precious and central to me, so fundamental to how I view my relationship with God and how life is supposed to be lived.

Although Lee didn’t invent the idea of “enjoying Christ,” he certainly popularized it, at least with us.

I never took “enjoying” to mean simply having a warm, fuzzy feeling or being happy. To me “enjoyment” embodied all our experiences of God and put them in the proper context and perspective. God wishes to be a delight to us. Of course, he wants us to worship, serve and even suffer for him. But how could you do those things in any kind of recommendable way without having a core of joy deep inside?!

Simply put, enjoying God is the way to experience God and walk with him, because everything about him is delightful.

Like I said to OBW, if you are not enjoying what you are doing, if you are not enjoying your life here on earth, then there is something very wrong with your approach. Likewise for your relationship with God. If you are not thoroughly enjoying it, your approach has gone awry, you’ve gotten religious or negative or something, but you’ve missed the boat.

Lee understood this in a very fundamental way. Although he went off the rails in other areas, this one idea, the idea of enjoying Christ in the Spirit, he got right. This idea, to not dip a toe in, to not be hindered by religious reverence, but to dive right in and get positively giddy with the joy of Lord, was at the time pretty revolutionary, at least as a central focus.

To this day, I appreciate and thank Witness Lee for enlightening me with this life-changing, life-sustaining idea. That to me was his gift to us, and what made the LC so special and different
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

While I must agree with what Igzy has written, for me it was the packaging that made even that one term problematic. It seems so nearly trite to just say "enjoy Christ."

For me, it is much more meaningful to do an essay, chapter, or even book on the entirety of "enjoying Christ." ("Entirety" may be too much, but at least on some good examples of the fullness of it.)

For example, enjoying Christ should entail the rich appreciation of the peace and joy we receive in Christ. It should include the sense of belonging to more than another organization, but rather to the kingdom of God. It should be some of those warm fuzzies we get from the realization that our good works and righteousness are not just helping others, but pleasing God. It should arise from the satisfaction of the knowledge that we are not just positionally "saved" but are living as if it is true.

It should come in part from reading and meditating on the Word, and from our times of worship.

For me, despite all of the rhetoric that spread the definition out, there seemed to be an underlying redefinition of it being just the "spiritual" stuff. And the spiritual stuff was never defined as broadly as simply living the life of a Christian, which includes virtually everything if you are actually setting your mind on the Spirit and walking according to the Spirit.

But once you get past these definitional problems, I do agree that enjoying Christ is important.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

For me "enjoying Christ" is just an abstraction until the question: What does this look like in application is asked and answered.

The LC answered the question with a list of things to do: pray read, call on the Lord, go to meetings, etc. Eventually the list became more about Witness Lee and his ministry. Go to trainings, go the the 7 feasts, read Life Studies, support the ministry. etc.

But I think the answer should be enjoy having a relationship with Christ. It's more about relationship than doing things mechanically and especially things the Anaheim-based Politburo dictates.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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For me "enjoying Christ" is just an abstraction until the question: What does this look like in application is asked and answered.
I'd also like to point out that, although the idea of enjoying Christ is a breakthrough, Lee made two errors associated with it.

The first is the saying, Just enjoy Christ.

I think that is misleading because it implies enjoying Christ is all we need to do. But the Bible charges us to do other things. So, I would say it is better to say, First, enjoy Christ.

That is, before you undertake any activity, make sure you are in a positive, joyful state. Then do whatever it is you feel to do.


The second error Lee made in regard to enjoying Christ could be summed up in the saying, Only enjoy Christ.

Lee admonished us time and time again to make Christ our sole enjoyment, and to enjoy nothing but him. This is much too strong and not biblical nor logical. Although Christ should be our leading enjoyment, the Bible says God gives us all things to enjoy. It is clear God wants us to enjoy many wholesome, human things. Family, relationships, careers and other interests, nature and so forth. (1 Tim 6:17)

So again, in regards to enjoying things, it's better to say, First, enjoy Christ.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:53 AM   #5
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I'd also like to point out that, although the idea of enjoying Christ is a breakthrough, Lee made two errors associated with it.

The first is the saying, Just enjoy Christ.
The word "just" -- just turns me off. How wonderful it is to encourage one another to "enjoy Christ," but add that little word "just" and the expression becomes loaded. It was never used in a vacuum, rather it became a manipulative expression to redirect attention from some important matter at hand.

That's what has turned most people off. LSM can take the best of sayings and use it for self gain. When we have responsibilities facing us, we don't dodge them and "just enjoy Christ." LSM has used this expression over the years to cover up immorality and unrighteousness, and that's why this trite saying has lost its significance.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

I've been noting lately in all kinds of Christian contexts that people who are trying to direct us to what they think are the missing things too often go way off the rails in trying to make their case. I have griped incessantly about how Lee turned so many things into "just" this or "simply" that when it should be obvious that almost everything is much more complicated, robust, broad, etc.

And it was not just Lee that is guilty of this kind of thing.

One thing I have been grappling with lately is what to do with things said by writers/teachers who seem to have something important to discuss, but make their whole argument questionable by taking almost ridiculous stances on some things. Just about the time you get that excitement about seeing something important, the next page starts to reflect a foam-at-the-mouth bashing of everything that is not seen as absolutely in line with their position.

So you almost have to go back to what they have been saying and decide whether they actually managed to make a reasonable case in the earlier portions such that you can ignore their rants and read on to see if there is something else that is meaningful yet to come.

And I don't really like doing that. I will never suggest that anyone should just take the word of any particular teacher (or particular group of teachers). But you should trust them enough to not simply distrust them.

I've been reading a book by a guy who has made many insightful comments on the out-of-balance state of evangelicalism (as he puts himself squarely within that camp). So I expected the book to be more of the same. And to some extent it is. But, like so many others (including me) he seems better at sizing up problems than coming to solutions.

And as I was reading some of the part where his wheels were coming off, I was reminded of this forum and this particular thread.

The problem for me is that what Lee managed to actually get even sort of right no longer places him in a position of trust. He seldom spent a lot of time pointing at the right things and then later managed to get off track. It seems that his "got it rights" are so far from the center of his teachings that they keep looking to me like admissions that are necessary to keep the followers from thinking too hard about the not so right stuff.

I will agree that enjoying Jesus/Christ is right. Ignore what went wrong with it. It is true.

But, like Igzy said, it is only part. It is not the whole thing. And I know that this seems like sniping at truth, but what portion of the scripture, or just the NT, or even just the gospels, is about enjoying Christ. I don't mean how can someone rephrase something so that it can be argued that it actually is some kind of enjoyment. Or how can we argue that obedience should generate joy within us. Simply put, how much scripture clearly makes reference to enjoying Christ (with or without some lengthy training banner tack-on).

My goal is not to dismiss it, but to give it proper scope. I don't have the answer. But it is clear that "simply enjoying Christ" is not the whole of anything. It is not given as the solution to anything. And it is not the predominant thing discussed by Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, or any of the other writers.

And there aren't many metaphors after the four Gospels, so not much opportunity to say that something not even referring to Christ is "simply the enjoyment of the processed triune God as our life supply." Yet this too often what too much scripture was turned into.

There is a vast wealth of truth in scripture. It does not all distill down to "dispensing God," "enjoying Christ," or any other kind of "simply." We all need a view of the gospel that is broader than salvation or the kingdom yet to come. That is about righteousness, meekness, humility, love (for God and man), and the kingdom right now on earth. And the kingdom right now on earth should be expressed more in our daily lives than in our meeting lives. More in the way we actually live than in some hidden, spiritual "process" that will eventually fall on us as righteousness without us ever having to think about it.

I would suggest that those who are not trying to be righteous by any means will never be righteous. And if they are never righteous, then any claim of spirituality is worse than suspect.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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Simply put, enjoying God is the way to experience God and walk with him, because everything about him is delightful.
To this day, I appreciate and thank Witness Lee for enlightening me with this life-changing, life-sustaining idea. That to me was his gift to us, and what made the LC so special and different


However…..

The problems come when this matter of "enjoying Christ" is attached to certain man-made teachings and practices, such as pray-reading and calling on the Lord, at least insomuch as they were made a requirement for one to enjoy Christ. alwayslearning states it well "It's more about relationship than doing things mechanically". Looking back, I can tell you that these practices became very "mechanical" to me, and I'm sure they did with many others as well. It's rather ironic...in seeking not to be "religious", these newfangled practices did become very religious. I guess this phenomenon may be more a commentary on how man will turn any fresh move of the Spirit into something religious.

I remember well the words to one of the songs...."we have found the way to live by Christ, pray his word and call his name". The problem is that these are practices established by a man and his followers, and not really tied to anything established by the Lord Jesus or the scripture writing apostles. Furthermore, there is absolutely no record of the early Christians practicing these things. While this does not necessarily make pray-reading and calling on the Lord unbiblical, it does beg the question of how any group of Christians can come along after nearly 2,000 years of Church history and proclaim “we have found the way to live by Christ”.

Now here comes the real fly in the ointment (albeit a fly the size of an elephant.…but I digress).
This matter of “enjoying Christ” was absolutely tied to a certain man and a certain ministry – the person and work of Witness Lee. As a matter of fact Lee was not shy about letting everybody know about this, even publicly declaring that he “invented this term, enjoying Christ”. (see Ingalls book Speaking The Truth in Love) The simple truth is that nothing to do with Christ, whether it be enjoying Him, experiencing Him or living by Him, should be tied to any set of man-made teachings or ministry.

The Bible is very clear. The Lord Jesus was very clear – “MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.” (Matt. 4:4) The actual words of the Bible are to be the source of our enjoyment, and not any particular method of imbibing in these words. They are to be our source of light (Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path – Psalm 119:105) They are to be our source of spiritual nourishment (see Matt. 4:4 as quoted above). As to the Name of the Lord, we are to fear it, exalt in it, honor it, glory in it, praise it, and yes even call upon it. Yet again, Witness Lee and his followers have strictly tied this biblical phrase “call upon the Lord” to the private interpretation of a man. There is absolutely no evidence (biblical or external) that this calling on the Lord was anything that was verbalized in such a manner as we see in the Local Church. In fact I would submit that there is much biblical evidence that calling on the Lord is not something that is verbalized at all. (strictly my opinion and not willing to argue about here and now)
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #8
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I think once "enjoying Christ" is understood as cultivating and enjoying a relationship with Him things begin to change for the better. If we reduce it down to calling on the Lord 3 times, pray reading, etc. something is lost and it becomes boring at best.

If we reduce it even further down to ingesting Witness Lee's ministry 24/7 then we will have a seriously problem because for all intent and purposes Christ as been replaced. He has become a topic of discussion. I liken it to having my wife in the room sitting next to me but I'm paying all my attention to someone across the room giving me a description of my wife. And then I get a copy of it in print and read it everyday while ignoring my wife sitting in the same room with me. Eventually I think my wife would pack up and leave. Maybe that's why the Lord was outside knocking on the door with the Laodecians (sp).
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
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The problem for me is that what Lee managed to actually get even sort of right no longer places him in a position of trust. He seldom spent a lot of time pointing at the right things and then later managed to get off track. It seems that his "got it rights" are so far from the center of his teachings that they keep looking to me like admissions that are necessary to keep the followers from thinking too hard about the not so right stuff.

I will agree that enjoying Jesus/Christ is right. Ignore what went wrong with it. It is true.
Once again, if I remember the early days in the Recovery, this saying was full of reality, and brought many of us to understand the grace of the New Testament. "Enjoying Jesus" brought us to the Spirit of reality, and that I will never dismiss. Like everything else in the Recovery, as the reality subsided, the message of "enjoying Jesus" became simply our specialized jargon.

When my wife stopped meeting with the LSMers, one of the "faithful" sisters called to check up on her. My wife was straightforward with her about worshiping elsewhere ... "but do you enjoy the Lord?" ... she retorted. Right away the manipulation started, and right away my wife became blunt with her.

That's why I say today's Recovery expression of "enjoy the Lord" is just an empty slogan at best, and at worst it has become coded words with which to manipulate others. Obviously if wifey was really enjoying the Lord, she would have remained with LSM in the first place.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

When you're there, they say, the sheep know where the food is.

When you're not there, they say, the lies of the enemy.

Such a tidy package, eh? Just enjoy Christ!
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Old 05-14-2012, 03:39 PM   #11
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One reason I like the idea of enjoying Christ is that it challenges one of the biggest masqueraders of all: grim-faced, religious earnestness.

You know the type. There is always a bit of suffering and martyrdom in their tone. They can usually be found calling others to "more devotion," "more sacrifice" and "more seriousness."

They are always really big on "being serious."

It's hard to find a problem with their words, and they always seem to have a bothersome point. The problem is they probably aren't themselves doing what they so soberly suggest others do. And if they are, they probably aren't happy about it. They've just decided that being a party-pooper is more spiritual that being a partier.

They've lost their joy, but not their resolve, unfortunately for the rest of us.

Jesus told us plainly not to go around like suffering martyrs*. We are supposed to be joyful, not those who make a habit of raining on everybody's parade and patting themselves on the back for doing so.

The world is full of over-earnest realists. Just check the opinion page of any daily paper. Fewer are those who are truly enjoying joy unspeakable and full of glory.

Where there is real love, real joy isn't far behind. Jesus isn't interested in our self-sacrificing drudgery.

Can I get a "Hallelujah, Amen!"?

*"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. Matt 6:16-17
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:21 PM   #12
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Hallelujah, Amen!

Sorry Igzy, I just got back home. This was the earliest I could respond.

“grimm-faced, religious earnestness”….say that three times real fast!

Something that Witness Lee was also “flat right” about…. Christ IS versus religion. Actually a more accurate statement might be that “religion is versus Christ”. But I guess it works pretty well either way. My point would be that Christ is really not versus anything but sin and death, and he took care of both of these on the cross.


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They've lost their joy, but not their resolve,
Man oh man, if anything describes religion, this is it.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #13
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Simply put, enjoying God is the way to experience God and walk with him, because everything about him is delightful.

Like I said to OBW, if you are not enjoying what you are doing, if you are not enjoying your life here on earth, then there is something very wrong with your approach. Likewise for your relationship with God. If you are not thoroughly enjoying it, your approach has gone awry, you’ve gotten religious or negative or something, but you’ve missed the boat.

Lee understood this in a very fundamental way. Although he went off the rails in other areas, this one idea, the idea of enjoying Christ in the Spirit, he got right.
Actually I would say this is the one idea Lee most definitely got WRONG, because of it was hyper-emphasized to the exclusion of all else. Was Job so wrong to suffer in misery rather than rejoice in the Lord? When we read the Psalms, and hear David crying out to the Lord, do we reprimand him for failing to "enjoy Christ"? This kind of thinking doesn't lead to a strong faith - but a superficial one. A faith based on feelings and emotions. A faith that is rocked whenever life's trials come... and come they will. Both the house built on sand the house built on the rock suffered in the same storm. Do not think your time won't come.

Faith in Christ is Faith in action. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit James wrote

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Lee didn't know what to do with that Word, so he disparaged the human hand that wrote it - just as he disparaged David in his psalms. What a fool Lee was. David was the man after God's own heart, and the Davidic covenant exceeded all others. James was man whom God used to pen His Holy Word, and a man who died for his faith in Christ. Who was Lee? Lee didn't write scripture, only personal interpretations. Interpretations that lack Biblical support... although they sure did tickle the ears pleasantly, didn't they?
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Old 05-20-2012, 09:49 AM   #14
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Interesting points. Please take a name, and consider commenting more.

How ironic that you used James and Psalms, two books that WL disparaged the most. What bothered me the most about the excessive use of the phrase "enjoy the Lord" is that it was used at the wrong time. There is a time to enjoy, there is a time to cry, there is a time to repent, there is a time to suffer, and there is a time to confess sins.

The fact that WL and the Blendeds used, abused, and misused this phrase indicates that they were not really "enjoying Christ" after all.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:04 PM   #15
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What bothered me the most about the excessive use of the phrase "enjoy the Lord" is that it was used at the wrong time. There is a time to enjoy, there is a time to cry, there is a time to repent, there is a time to suffer, and there is a time to confess sins.

The fact that WL and the Blendeds used, abused, and misused this phrase indicates that they were not really "enjoying Christ" after all.
The portion I placed in bold is what can be considered as experiencing Christ. Blendeds and LSM/LC's in general are too locked into the positive aspects, for them to experience Christ is to enjoy the Lord. A time to cry, a time to repent, a time to suffer, and a time to confess sins is considered as being negative and thus ignored.
Sorry to say; if it's not positive, it's not considered profitable in experiencing Christ.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:03 PM   #16
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To enjoy the Lord, how wonderful. I go skating on the surface all day long enjoying the lord. Of course there are all those obstacles that keep getting in the way. Sometimes they are so hard to go around. But you'll never see me stop to deal with these things, for they are of the devil and I just want to keep on enjoying the Lord. The Lord is in my spirit and I have to keep Him out of my soul. What a messy messy thing to do if I had to actually deal with my horrible soul. No, it is much better to just enjoy the Lord in my spirit.

This of course is the problem. The true enjoyment of the Lord is just His love breaking through to provide us with His power to begin to clean up our terrible messy lives so He can really live there instead of our phoney baloney tactics of religion. It begins with true enjoyment that should lead to the reality of sharing our lives with each other, and our lives are not that good. But Hallelujah!!! There really is the receiving of the poured out One

Our Spirit is in the center of our heart which is in the center of our soul. The Lord has broken through to the very center of our being. The only true way He comes out of us: is through our soul.

Lord Jesus!!! Break through!!!
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:24 PM   #17
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I think the problem here is that many of the brothers that critizied him can't see more beyond a certain point, i mean, some haven't studied beyond certaina aspects of the teaching of Brother Lee about what he saw christian life is.

Someone said that we ignored the negative aspects like crying, suffering for the Lord, etc.
But once again, the problem is that YOU are the one that ignores Lee's teachings.

For example, the bible shows that if someone wants to be a part of the ministry of life, the first thing is to pass thought death, suffering. Paul said many times that he died so we could gain life trought him, he knew that the rock must be hit so the water(life) could go out, the grapes must be pressed to produce wine, squeeze the olive = oil.

And that's a part of the normal christian life.

Something else is that some of you judge saying we don't really do the things we preach, that we don't really enjoy christ. What can i say? If some brother is passing troguht a top decision it means everything's wrong with us? no way! We ask for life to the Lord so that we can give life to that brother. May be you don't know this(this teaching i mean): but sometimes the brothers don't need that you talk about bible to be shepherded, maybe he needs ...food, a present...a hug. The first thing that Lord did when Peter was fihsing and not preaching the gospel was make a rant! noooo...! he prepared fish for Peter because he was the whole night without eating. To take the cross!

Other thing that sorprises me is that you talk about "manipulation". I say: what?! Like if we had meeting where they teach us what to say to make feel bad people so they come back. Rather that the Lord teachs us in the bible in the case of Peter.

"Just" enjoy Christ: Means that we don't have to do anything else? I know a brother that says that's not entirly right, he is named: Witness Lee.

He saw in bible that the firse day of Adan was "the sabbath", the day God rested. And then came the "work" for Adan.
The thing is he was trying to say we do a lot without Christ, he was making a point. What you do without the enjoy of Christ is meaninless and maybe the Lord could say in that day "I never knew you". We need to come back to the Lord befor doing nothing.

We have to go to the secret and there have this fellowship with the lord, pray to him, say him how much do you love him, ask his revelation when you read the bible. That's a tyruly important part of enjoyng the Lord.

We have, and he said that many time, we have to preach the Gospel, we do that with non-believers but...also Paul wanted to go to Rome to preach the Gospel TO THE BROTHERS in that city. Not only non-belivers needs the Gospel.
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:46 AM   #18
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I think the problem here is that many of the brothers that critizied him can't see more beyond a certain point, i mean, some haven't studied beyond certaina aspects of the teaching of Brother Lee about what he saw christian life is.
If I hear what you are saying, someguy, you are saying that Lee did not just teach "just enjoy Christ." He also taught that we have to suffer, work, be tested, be "cooked." etc.

I agree with this.

But you must understand, one problem is that Lee had a way of speaking in absolutes. He would indeed say things like "just enjoy Christ" or "just stay in the Spirit" or "just become nothing," and even "just take in the ministry" (meaning his ministry).

All these "justs" were contradictory and confusing.

Since LCers were also taught to take everything Lee said at face value without question, reconciling what he meant takes some thought. Unfortunately, Lee also said "just get out of your mind," which kind of makes thinking difficult.

Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by someguy View Post
Someone said that we ignored the negative aspects like crying, suffering for the Lord, etc.
But once again, the problem is that YOU are the one that ignores Lee's teachings.
For me, the point is not that Witless Lee did not suffer for the Lord nor teach others about suffering for the Lord, because he did. He taught for close to 70 years on a vast array of topics, including the cross of Christ.

The problem I have now, and I should add that I was active in the LC's for 30 years, is that he also caused others to suffer. He regularly used his authority and influence at LSM to tear others down for personal gain. He forgot that ministers were to serve and not to rule, lead and not to control, protect and not to abuse, shepherd and not to stumble others.

At different points in his lengthy tenure, it became thoroughly unrighteous when certain brothers, like John Ingalls, approached Witness Lee about wrongdoings, abuses and immoralities at the LSM. Instead of hearkening to their concerns, correcting ministry abuses, and bearing the cross of Christ which he preached, Witness Lee "shot the messengers" and totally discredited them within the Recovery, charging them with some fabricated conspiratorial rebellion.

Dear brother someguy, I do understand the points you have made, but as former long-term members of the Recovery, we post on this forum not concerning what you know, but what you do not know, that which has been kept in secret from you and many others like you.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
If I hear what you are saying, someguy, you are saying that Lee did not just teach "just enjoy Christ." He also taught that we have to suffer, work, be tested, be "cooked." etc.

I agree with this.

But you must understand, one problem is that Lee had a way of speaking in absolutes. He would indeed say things like "just enjoy Christ" or "just stay in the Spirit" or "just become nothing," and even "just take in the ministry" (meaning his ministry).

All these "justs" were contradictory and confusing.

Since LCers were also taught to take everything Lee said at face value without question, reconciling what he meant takes some thought. Unfortunately, Lee also said "just get out of your mind," which kind of makes thinking difficult.

Wouldn't you agree?
I agree.

Somtimes if you don't have the whole picture it's fair to think another think. Like this "just get out of your mind".
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:05 AM   #21
alwayslearning
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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Originally Posted by someguy View Post
But once again, the problem is that YOU are the one that ignores Lee's teachings.
Although I disagree with some of Witness Lee's teachings that has never been my main concern with him and the LC system. IMHO to argue about a teaching here and there is to miss the forest while measuring the bark on the trees.

The problem for me is something beyond and bigger than his teachings. It is a system that regardless of what he teaches or does it is accepted because he is the one oracle. His teachings, practices, behaviors, etc. are never challenged and if they are those that do so are tossed aside. This is an unhealthy system without the proper checks and balances in place and it allowed him, his son, etc. to run roughshod over God's people. Now his successor - the Anaheim Politburo - enjoys the same unchallengeable status.

I would further suggest that the above is an underlying reason why the LC system will always remain a very small denomination in the U.S. and Canada. Most of Christians that I have met in these countries would never accept the "one oracle" idea and would expect mechanisms in place to counter balance or oust from a teaching position anyone like a Witness Lee and those of his ilk.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:55 AM   #22
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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Originally Posted by alwayslearning View Post
Although I disagree with some of Witness Lee's teachings that has never been my main concern with him and the LC system. IMHO to argue about a teaching here and there is to miss the forest while measuring the bark on the trees.

The problem for me is something beyond and bigger than his teachings. It is a system that regardless of what he teaches or does it is accepted because he is the one oracle. His teachings, practices, behaviors, etc. are never challenged and if they are those that do so are tossed aside. This is an unhealthy system without the proper checks and balances in place and it allowed him, his son, etc. to run roughshod over God's people. Now his successor - the Anaheim Politburo - enjoys the same unchallengeable status.

I would further suggest that the above is an underlying reason why the LC system will always remain a very small denomination in the U.S. and Canada. Most of Christians that I have met in these countries would never accept the "one oracle" idea and would expect mechanisms in place to counter balance or oust from a teaching position anyone like a Witness Lee and those of his ilk.
So your problem was mainly with "authority" rather than with his teachings. And then you leave this "denomination" , maybe with some other brothers?

Are you what someone could call "dissident" ? (always from the point of view of "LC's"). Or i could say: is this web a product of a brother that didn't agree with the way brother Lee did things and is trying to show the world how bad it is this group?

Im not sure if im expressing myself as i should.


(i know i'm marking to myself a huge off topic but...)
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

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Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
So your problem was mainly with "authority" rather than with his teachings. And then you leave this "denomination" , maybe with some other brothers?

Are you what someone could call "dissident" ? (always from the point of view of "LC's"). Or i could say: is this web a product of a brother that didn't agree with the way brother Lee did things and is trying to show the world how bad it is this group?
Perhaps you should read my previous post.
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