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Old 09-02-2011, 06:46 PM   #1
awareness
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Default Lee and the book of Job

So we were having a very active discussion about the book of Job, until UnToHim hosed us down with his fire hose.

Lee has a Life Study of Job. And of course the book of Job has to do with Lees' God's Economy. Lee saw in the book of Job something that wasn't there. Take a look at chapter 12 of Lee's Life Study of Job.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...27%3A%20%29%0A
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So we were having a very active discussion about the book of Job, until UnToHim hosed us down with his fire hose.

Lee has a Life Study of Job. And of course the book of Job has to do with Lees' God's Economy. Lee saw in the book of Job something that wasn't there. Take a look at chapter 12 of Lee's Life Study of Job.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...27%3A%20%29%0A
In that active discussion I was accused of having "Lee esque" teaching. I challenged this, in Post #165, Elvis has left the building, "If this is so Lee esque, why don't you quote what Lee shared on the book of Job. Lee never shared any of this. This is a genuine straw man argument that you have not provided the least bit of evidence to support. Provide one quote from WL that he interpreted Job this way, because I never saw it."

I have gone to the Life Study of Job, chapter 29, and gathered the appropriate quotes, you be the judge. WL quotes are in black, mine are in blue.


WL: In His questioning of Job, Jehovah first asked him, "Who is this who darkens counsel/By words without knowledge?" (38:2). Would you like to be addressed in this way? This kind of question is neither pleasant nor peaceful but quite threatening. Eventually, Job would have to admit that it was he who darkened counsel by speaking words of nonsense, words without revelation.

ZNP: 1. Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Clearly, to have a productive discussion requires some basic knowledge. You need to know certain things.



WL: Job 38:4-38 covers the divine unveiling concerning the universe, including matters related to astronomy and geography. During this unveiling Jehovah asked Job a number of questions. For instance, He asked him, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?/Tell Me, if you have understanding./Who set its measurements—if you know?/Or who stretched the measuring line over it?/Onto what were its bases sunk,/Or who laid its cornerstone,/When the morning stars sang together/And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (vv. 4-7).

In the divine unveilings to Job, there was nothing concerning the purpose of God in dealing with Job. Thus, the adequate knowledge of this matter is not found in this book. The revelation regarding the purpose of God's dealing with Job had to wait until Christ came and until the apostle Paul was produced.

ZNP: 2. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the Earth?

The Lord asks Job a number of questions about the details of how the Foundation of the Earth was laid. According to the context, this is the Lord’s answer to Job’s question. So for part 1, what is the point to life, the Lord could respond that this was the laying of the foundation for Job’s life. If you read the rest of the story that would be consistent. For part 2 you could say that God is building a man that can judge the wicked, and what he has been doing is to lay the foundation for this man. For part 3 you could say that the Lord is laying a foundation, not punishing Job for sins. This also is consistent with the beginning of the story. Clearly, the evil that came upon Job was not a response to sin.


WL: In 40:2 Jehovah said to Job, "Shall one who finds fault contend with the Almighty?/Let him who argues with God answer it." Jehovah's question here indicates that He regarded Job as a fault finder, as one who was contending with the Almighty. Job had been arguing with God and even condemning him. Job could not deny that this was the very thing that he had been doing.

ZNP: 3. Job 40:1 “moreover the Lord answered Job and said, shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct Him?”

God is saying ‘Ok, you instruct me, you don’t like what I am doing, even though I have created the entire universe and done many marvelous works that you are completely clueless about, fine, instruct me, how do I build a man?’ To say that these questions are an answer to Job require that you use the context of the preceding 37 chapters.



WL: Finally, Jehovah asked Job if he had an arm like God's and if he could thunder with a voice like His (v. 9).
The book of Job is a book of argument. In reading this book, we need to learn of Job, of his three friends, and of Elihu to be silent and let God be the only one to speak.

ZNP: 4. Job 40:9 “Hast thou an arm like God? Or canst thou thunder with a voice like Him?”

Again, this is the Lord answering Job’s question. 1. What is the point of human life? Well, it is to express God, we were made in the image and likeness of God. Therefore we should have an arm like God and a voice like God. 2. Who and where is the man that will judge the wicked? He is a man that is made in the image and likeness of God. This is the point of the book of Job. God is making Job into His image and likeness. All of the complaints were about the process, God says ‘look you don’t even know how to make the Earth, why are you complaining about how I make a man in my image?’ 3. What is my sin? Your sin is that you have fallen short of the glory of God. You think that it is good enough to be righteous, but what God wants is a man that expresses him. God wants a man that has an arm like His and a voice like His.


Personally, I feel that the accusation that I was teaching "Lee esque" is patently untrue. For example WL's statement that there was nothing concerning the purpose of God in dealing with Job is a direct contradiction of my teaching, but ironically very much in line with those accusing me of teaching "Lee esque". I feel I am owed an apology by both of them.


OBW Post #139, Elvis has left the building: “I know you wont like this, but this kind of argument is very Lee-esque.”

OBW Post #161, Elvis has left the Building: “And, once again, this is very Lee-esque. You don't have to like the comparison. But it is real.”

Awareness Post #137, Elvis has left the building: “So you've gotten out of Lee's movement, but haven't got Lee's movement out of you?”



Take a look at the quotes from WL and tell me who is darkening counsel without knowledge?
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Personally, I feel that the accusation that I was teaching "Lee esque" is patently untrue.
Aside from the personal I see this Lee-esque as very positive.

There was a time in my life if someone said I was Lee-esque I would have taken it as a compliment. And it would have prolly given me a big head.

But now we look at it as a derogatory term, a put-down.

And look at you bro ZNP. You've come a long way. You no longer consider it a good thing to be called Lee-esque. What a turn around! And you want an apology for being called such a awful thing. Boy we've all come such a long way.

And I personally don't know that you are being Lee-esque. As I see it what you are doing is way to common to be specific to Lee.

Because I can't see what you see in the book of Job it looks as if you are seeing something that is not there.

But I could be wrong. Unlike the Song of Songs the book of Job is quoted and referenced in the NT.

It would be interesting to see the quoted material from Job side by side with the NT.

I could do it, but it would be a lot of work. And I've seen brothers out here that have the ability to do this with a certain Bible aid that they purchased. Maybe they could help us, and in the end what you claim to see could be vindicated.

Anyone up to it?
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

Rev. 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and
shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Job 3:21 - Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
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2 Thes. 2:8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
his coming:

Job 4:9 - By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
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1 Cor. 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Job 5:13 - He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
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Heb. 12:5 - And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you
as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nore
faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Jas. 1:12 - Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried,
he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that
love him.

and Rev. 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous
therefore, and repent.

all parallel Job 5:17 - Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth:
therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

and Job 23:10 - But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I
shall come forth as gold.
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Jas. 4:14 - Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is
your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then
vanisheth away.

Job 7:6 - My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without
hope.
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Heb. 2:6 - But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou
shouldest set thine heart upon him?
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Heb. 12:26 - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised,
saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Job 9:6 - Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof
tremble.
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Rom. 9:20 - Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall
the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

alludes to Job 9:32 - For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer
him, and we should come together in judgment.
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Rom. 11:33 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

parallels Job 35:7 - If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
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Acts 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Job 12:10 - In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of
all mankind.
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1 Cor. 4:5 - Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make
manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of
God.

Job 12:22 - He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to
light the shadow of death.
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1 Pet. 1:24 - For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of
grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Job 14:2 - He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a
shadow, and continueth not.
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Lk. 19:22 - And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee,
thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that
I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

Job 15:6 - Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips
testify against thee.
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Rom. 1:9 - For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel
of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

parallels Job 16:19 - Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.
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1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Job 19:26 - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
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Rev. 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be
tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in
the presence of the Lamb:

and Rev 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

parallel Job 21:20 - His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
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Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been
his counsellor?

and 1 Cor. 2:16 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may
instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

quotes Isa. 40:13 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his
counsellor hath taught him?

which parallels Job 21:22 - Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
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Mt. 25:42 - For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

alludes to Job 22:7 - Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.
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Jas. 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

and 1 Pet. 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea,
all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God
resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

both quote Prov. 3:34, - Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace
unto the lowly.

which parallels Job 22:29 - When men are cast down, then thou shalt say,
There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
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Acts 1:7 - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Job 24:1 - Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?
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Heb. 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but
all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to
do.

parallels Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no
covering.
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Mt. 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

alludes to Job 27:8 - For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath
gained, when God taketh away his soul?
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Jas. 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all
men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Job 32:8 - But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty
giveth them understanding.
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1 Jo. 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

alludes to Job 33:27-28 - He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have
sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
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Jas. 5:4 - Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your
fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them
which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

alludes to Job 34:28 - So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.
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Rev. 16:21 - And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone
about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague
of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

alludes to Job 38:22-23 - Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or
canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof
in the earth?
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Mt. 6:26 - Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap,
nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not
much better than they?

alludes to Job 38:41 - Who provideth for the raven his food? when his
young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
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Rom. 11:35 - Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed
unto him again?

Job 41:11 - Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is
under the whole heaven is mine.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
In that active discussion I was accused of having "Lee esque" teaching. I challenged this, in Post #165, Elvis has left the building, "If this is so Lee esque, why don't you quote what Lee shared on the book of Job. Lee never shared any of this. This is a genuine straw man argument that you have not provided the least bit of evidence to support. Provide one quote from WL that he interpreted Job this way, because I never saw it."
I promised one response in this thread. I will make to to this opening point in this post. Then I will leave it to the asylum.

I am not going to read the remainder of your post. I see that it essentially ends with the same 3-point statements about what that verse about God's arm and voice are about. This is one of the very statements "out of the air" that I need more than your words about. They need to connect to the text. But instead you say that because we are to bear the image of God we are to have it. Huh?? Say again??

The answer to the above point you make is to note that you don't actually read the questions. or you don't actually want to respond to them. So you create one strawman after another. Complain that I am calling you a liar or something like that. It really doesn't matter because nothing Lee shared is relevant to the discussion that I thought we were trying to have or to my complaints about your posts.

It is this. And only this. Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

But, from past experience, I would expect that right about now you would be gearing up to go quote more Lee from his life study of Job and prove that you are not just being Lee-esque.

And then, once again, you would answer a question not asked but claim that you had.

That is a strawman. Plain and simple. I guess you think everyone else is too stupid to see through it.

I do. And I'm tired of your madness. It needs a method. And an opening so that you can check to see when it is ultimately right or wrong. Instead, you seem to presume that I and everyone else should just accept your word for everything and shut up.

So I will.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

Haven't had the time or heart to figure out what ya'll are fighting about. But I did go to the Life-study of Job, chapter 12. This caught my eye:

"Suppose there is a problem between you and your spouse, You should not do anything, for whatever you do will be in the realm of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You should simply pray-read Galatians 2:20."

I don't know, but in reading Paul he seems to talk about loving and submitting. Is that doing nothing but pray-reading? Address all your problems by just pray-reading scripture? I can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years.

Now if a couple will address all their problems only by pray-reading the bible, that will make their marriage only good within the context of the Local Church. It still doesn't teach them what it means to submit to and love one another.

If one is in the Local Church and the other one is not, the Lee zealot will address all issues by clinging to and pray-reading Lee's ministry. That only opens the gap bigger and bigger between these two Christian spouses. The one who clings to Lee's ministry will only grow colder and colder to the actual needs of the other. It solves nothing.

Lee's top lieutenants followed his prescription about praying-reading all problems away. That's why they were such a complete failure in dealing with those who disagree with them, both within and without. Except for trying to get everybody to agree with them, they have no other people skills. They can't claim to be "god-men." They haven't even learned yet how to be men-men.

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Old 09-04-2011, 05:14 AM   #8
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Good catch bro Paul. "In as much as ye do unto the least of these ye do unto me." And what does it say about pray-reading? Isn't pray-reading in this way espoused then just an escape? Maybe all pray-reading is an escape. Maybe it's just a way to deny reality.

Maybe pray-reading, in the end, was a way to make the mind numb so that we/they would be good followers, robots, of Witness Lee.

I too "can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years."
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.
Thank you, your hard work is much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.
I am tempted to misquote John Houseman here, but that wouldn't be decent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.
Relax, I will respond. However, I have no intention of pulling rabbits out of these verses, only Christ, the Church and God's purpose for man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.
Well I am glad you added that because otherwise this entire post is off topic as well as all the verses you posted. They should be in a thread "Job and the NT".

I think everyone will agree that WL taught certain Bible truths, and to say that "Justification by Faith" came from WL because he taught it is absurd. WL gave a Life Study on Job, I have quoted relevant quotes from the Life Study to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that WL did not teach any of this about Job. Therefore, it is ridiculous to say that my claims come straight from WL. If I had stood up during the LS of Job and taught this I would have been shouted down as being rebellious.

So, WL taught the Purpose of Man is to express God. That is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss this truth start a new thread. WL taught the Bible culminates in the NJ. That also is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss that truth, start a new thread. But WL also taught that there is nothing of God's purpose in the book of Job. That is a "Lee esque" teaching. I did not teach that. You and OBW did. If anyone has "Lee esque" teachings on Job it is you and OBW. You should have the common decency to admit it.
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.
Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.
Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:03 PM   #12
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But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.
12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Verse 5 and 6 parallel Job 5:17 and 23:10

According to Hebrews we should look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who endured the cross, despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of Glory when we are going through experiences similar to those described in Job. Clearly the writer of Hebrews sees Jesus in the book of Job. He sees the story of Jesus being crucified, resurrected and ascended as an example for us also to endure the same and compares that story to the story of Job.

And the path of the cross that Jesus took in Heb 12:2 and that we should follow in verses 12:3-6 leads to Mount Zion:

12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,More…
12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:12 PM   #13
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But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.
12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.More
12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Verse 26 is a reference to Job 9:6. The verse is explained by the writer of Hebrews to mean “the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain”. This is the book of Job in a nutshell. This is what I meant when I talked about the cataclysmic event that “laid the foundation” of the Earth. It was this foundation that set the stage for life on this planet. In the same way the events in Job laid the foundation for Job to receive the kingdom which cannot be moved.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:13 PM   #14
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Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.
That was one verse, let me finish.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:23 PM   #15
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I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.
4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heartMore
4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 4:13 is a reference to Job 26:6. The point here is that the people of God have not arrived, they need to labor to enter into that rest. We have the word of God and we have Jesus our high priest. Therefore we can get the timely help we need. In the book of Job he asks who this man is and where is he, and asks if God has eyes of flesh to judge us. Job’s question to God is very clear, we need help, we need someone that can understand and sympathize with man of flesh. I said that God’s answer is that Jesus, the man in the image and likeness of God, is that man. The writer of Hebrews also says the same, though he brings in this light about the word of God also.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:35 PM   #16
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Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.
1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.Moe
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Verse 19 is quoted from Job 5:13. It is the conclusion to everything Paul has shared. Paul said as a wise master builder he has laid the foundation of the church. I said that the book of Job was about God laying a foundation for a man that expresses God. I said that this man is Jesus and it is also the “One New Man” the “Church” that God is building.

So in Post #137 Awareness asked for NT references to Job concerning the New Man. The New Man is the church, and Paul was laying the foundation to the church as a wise master builder in 1Cor 3. Also, Hebrews 12 refers to Job repeatedly as it leads us to the New Jerusalem, the City of our God, an unshakeable kingdom.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:42 PM   #17
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Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try.
Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:48 PM   #18
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Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.
It has been slightly less than 3 days. During this time I have probably posted something in excess of 3,000 words. I have references LSM life studies because you accused me of spouting Lee's teachings. I have referenced numerous verses from Job, as well as the NT. I have responded to everything asked of me. And this, during Labor Day weekend when my family and I are doing many other things, as well as being involved in service at the church.

This just comes across as whining and pathetic.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64
Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:33 PM   #21
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Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.
Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Romans 9-11

Rom 9:20 uses the analogy of God being a potter and we are the work of his hands. This quote alludes to Job 9:32. This is in line with the idea that God is building a man, an analogy similar to a potter making a pot. However, Romans 9 refers to the nation of Israel corporately. So this is another reference in the NT to Job, that Job doesn’t just represent a single man, but a plural man, and even the nation of Israel.

This section on Israel being grafted in is concluded in Rom 11:33 “O the dept of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” This quote parallels Job 35:7. And Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Parallels Job 21:22. Rom. 11:35 – “Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” is quoted from Job 41:11
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Matt 16

In Matt 16 Peter gets the Revelation that Jesus is the Christ, and then the Lord tells him upon this rock I will build my church. From that moment on Jesus begins to reveal that He will go to the cross. Peter rebukes him. Then in verse 26 Jesus says – “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” This is an allusion to Job 27:8. The cross of Christ is the foundation of the Christian life, and the book of Job also talks about laying the foundation of man.
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Old 09-05-2011, 04:55 AM   #24
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Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?
Do you really want me to do this? I've had less intelligent people than you see it in Job. Shouldn't you be able to see it?

Just read Job and remember that God is suppose to be omniscient. Then answer me what this conversation is all about :

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:35 AM   #25
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Do you really want me to do this? I've had less intelligent people than you see it in Job. Shouldn't you be able to see it?

Just read Job and remember that God is suppose to be omniscient. Then answer me what this conversation is all about :

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
I do not see God being portrayed as a Buffoon. I do see God manipulating Satan to do His will. I do see Satan portrayed as a pawn in God's plan. I see that Job has caught God's attention and now God wants to work with Job, so He is focusing Satan on Job to do His bidding. If you wanted to call God a "puppet master" i would find that about the worst of what I would think to be reasonable observations. If you want to say that Satan is a "tool" and that God is a master craftsman, that I would find a much more acceptably worded observation.

But no, I do not see Buffoon. I don't see God portrayed as a clown, or as an ill educated person, or as a fool.
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:41 AM   #26
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I do not see God being portrayed as a Buffoon. I do see God manipulating Satan to do His will. I do see Satan portrayed as a pawn in God's plan. I see that Job has caught God's attention and now God wants to work with Job, so He is focusing Satan on Job to do His bidding. If you wanted to call God a "puppet master" i would find that about the worst of what I would think to be reasonable observations. If you want to say that Satan is a "tool" and that God is a master craftsman, that I would find a much more acceptably worded observation.

But no, I do not see Buffoon. I don't see God portrayed as a clown, or as an ill educated person, or as a fool.
So you do see that God is pretending with Satan, to not know what he's been up to? And Satan, acting like a buffoon, thinks God hasn't been keeping an omniscient eye on him?
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:50 AM   #27
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So you do see that God is pretending with Satan, to not know what he's been up to? And Satan, acting like a buffoon, thinks God hasn't been keeping an omniscient eye on him?
I consider this to be a reasonable description of the common understanding of the first two chapters. I would not use the word "pretending" but don't really have an issue with it. I don't see it any different from my boss asking me what i have been doing. I would not infer from that question that my boss is pretending to not know what I do. So if that is what you meant in your post it is not what I heard. In your post you said you read the book again and again and then you got this insight and "the book has never been the same to me, it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."

So what i read in Post #64 is not what I am reading here. Perhaps you misspoke?
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:59 AM   #28
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

To say that God is "pretending" shows a very shallow understanding of the Word. God doesn't have to pretend. To pretend is pretense which is a form of lying which God cannot do (Romans 3:4, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18)

Was God pretending when he told Adam and Eve "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" God was simply stating a fact. When God asked them "Where are you?" Adam gave an incomplete version of what had actually taken place, Adam said "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." God was merely completing the whole picture for the sake of all - Adam & Eve, Satan and probably the angles.

I see the same thing happening there in the opening chapter of Job. When God asked Satan "From where do you come", Satan gave an incomplete picture of the situation – Satan’s answer to God was “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." But we find out what Satan was doing (supposed to be doing) – he was to be “considering” the character and conduct of human beings on earth. In all his roaming about and walking around Satan no doubt observed Job and that “there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." Satan already knew this but God was merely pointing out this fact to him, as well as taking the opportunity to brag about Job’s character and conduct. This time there were observers as well – “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.” According to other passages we can presume “the sons of God” to be angels.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:48 AM   #29
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

So God wasn't really pretending, all present knew that God is omniscient, and God was just making small talk with Satan, like humans do. All the writers of Job has done is to anthropomorphize God.

And what about "the sons of God?" We assume they were angels but that's just conjecture. The sons of God gather before the Lord, and Satan takes the spotlight.

ZNP says the book of Job is about building a man, Jesus, Jesus is a son of God, but he's not mentioned at all. Instead Satan gets the spotlight, and must be a son of God too, if he's allowed there, but the sons of God is not mentioned anymore, and Jesus, the supposed man God is building, is not mentioned at all.

Is this not odd?
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:12 AM   #30
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Perhaps you misspoke?
I did not mis-speak. I just have gotten there yet.

But I don't know if I'm gonna actually go there. I don't think you guys reaaly want me to.

I might be casting pearls to swine, so to speak (not that you guys are swine). Maybe I should keep it all to myself. Maybe God delivered it to me, and it's not for others.

The book of Job is a literary device, trying to explain why bad things happen to good people.

By the time the book of Job was written this conundrum was long beforehand being debated.

The earliest account is what is called The Sumerian Job, written 2000 years earlier. They too were wondering why bad things happen to good people. And their gods met once a year.

The book of Job is a compilation, written over a long period, and edited and added to along the way. The core of Job may have been taken from the Sumerian Job, a common motif concerning bad things happening to good people.

And Rom 3:10 says, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

Yet the book of Job says Job was righteous. Contradictory?
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:15 AM   #31
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Harold let me assure you that anytime God is talking it is not small talk.

The book of Job, along with most of the Bible, is a record of what actually took place for the benefit of all mankind. Do you want to take away the book of Job like you do Revelation? Without the book of Genesis we would have no idea of how the universe and man were created. It is the record of what actually took place and since none of us were there we would be in the dark about what actually took place.

This is what is happening in Job. God knows what was said and done. Satan knows what was said and done. Job and the others around them know what was said and done but they are all long gone. What about us? We have the Word of God to tell us what was said and done. You are missing the forest for the trees my friend. Also you need to understand that the best way to interpret the bible is with the bible, and not merely with you myopic observation of a single passage.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:45 AM   #32
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I did not mis-speak. I just have gotten there yet..
I have not gone into detail on my take on this book, I have only given an overview. I think if anyone is a fiction writer this book should be one of your reference books along with The Elements of Style. Job provides you with the elements of human suffering. Reading of all the references in the NT to Job, you have to be impressed. I would much rather get the details of these experiences second hand through Job than to have to get these experiences first hand. What is interesting to me is that the loss of all he owned and the loss of his family and the loss of his health were not the only sufferings. Clearly, the assumption by his friends that these evils occurred to him because he had sinned was another suffering.

I say this because I don't want to limit anyone's understanding of the book. I can definitely see someone wanting to turn this book into a comedy. That is fine. But portraying God as a "Buffoon"? Now if you want to say you see God as a "Columbo" like character, I would have no issue with that. Why not?

Personally, I found the original Get Smart theme hilarious but extremely difficult to pull off. The idea is you have this character who is head and shoulders above everyone else, yet he appears to be a total buffoon, so that adds to the comedy that everyone treats this bumbling fool as a genius, yet in hindsight his comedy of errors actually leads to the only way in which you could succeed. It works if during the entire episode you feel he is a bumbling fool being saved by 99 but then in the end you realize "hey, if he didn't make those errors this, and this and this would never have happened." There has to be a double take, is this guy a fool or a genius?

So, if you mean that Job portrays God as a character similar to Columbo or Get Smart, I could go with that as well.

But I don't see unqualified "buffoon".
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:24 AM   #33
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So God wasn't really pretending, all present knew that God is omniscient, and God was just making small talk with Satan, like humans do. All the writers of Job has done is to anthropomorphize God.

And what about "the sons of God?" We assume they were angels but that's just conjecture. The sons of God gather before the Lord, and Satan takes the spotlight.

ZNP says the book of Job is about building a man, Jesus, Jesus is a son of God, but he's not mentioned at all. Instead Satan gets the spotlight, and must be a son of God too, if he's allowed there, but the sons of God is not mentioned anymore, and Jesus, the supposed man God is building, is not mentioned at all.

Is this not odd?
Job 7:17 is a direct reference to Jesus, it is the central question of the entire book of Job, and it is quoted in Hebrews as a reference to Jesus. Therefore, this is not my interpretation, it is the interpretation of the writer of Hebrews.

Satan gets the spotlight in scene 1, but the next 28 chapters are devoted to Job, God, and this central question that focuses on Jesus. After chapter 2 Satan is nothing but a byword and an after thought.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:36 PM   #34
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Job 7:17 is a direct reference to Jesus
ZNP I really like you. You're as wacky as I am. Job 7:17 is not a reference to Jesus. It's clearly a reference to humankind....
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:49 PM   #35
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ZNP I really like you. You're as wacky as I am. Job 7:17 is not a reference to Jesus. It's clearly a reference to humankind....
What is man that thou [God] shouldst magnify him?

I could go through your posts and find many examples of your discussion on man that would make it very hard to believe that God would magnify him. That is the question. The answer to this question is Jesus. Jesus explains to us what man is and what man can be that God would magnify man to sit on His throne and to be called the Son of God.

Look at how Hebrews quotes this verse:

2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet.

The reference here is clearly to Jesus.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:34 PM   #36
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What is man that thou [God] shouldst magnify him?
Here's what Strongs says about the word "man" in said verse :

From H605; properly a mortal (and thus differeing from the more dignified H120); hence a man in general (singly or collectively). It is often unexpressed in the English Version, especially when used in apposition with another word: - another, X [blood-] thirsty, certain, chap [-man], divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the Engl. version, especially when used in apposition with another word.

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The answer to this question is Jesus.
Just because the answer is Jesus doesn't mean that's what that verse meant when written.

Quote:
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
And a little higher than the monkeys. We're between the angels and the monkeys.

And like Genesis says to first man, "have dominion over the earth."
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Old 09-05-2011, 02:24 PM   #37
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The word "man" in that verse refers to mortal, the question is what does the word "magnify" refer to? What does it mean that God magnifies man? You are free to your opinion, but the writer of Hebrews used this verse as an OT reference to God magnifying Jesus.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:43 PM   #38
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I have not gone into detail on my take on this book, I have only given an overview...
Bro Z you are just full of surprises. What a wonderful post/response. I tell ya it warmed the cockles of my heart.

I was a young boy when I fell in love with the God Jesus spoke of, represented, and exemplified. And I'm still in love with Him.

So when I come across a depiction of God that's otherwise from the God Jesus represented, I become concerned, irritated, and sometimes riled.

And the book of Job is just one false depiction of the God Jesus represented.

The book of Job depicts a God that is heartless and indifferent to the sufferings and misfortunes of Job and his family ... all to prove a point to the lousy devil ... all to win a bet with the devil about Job ... that God knew the outcome before hand, and so was unnecessary.

And then, after Job's friend's derided him, and accused him of pissing off God, God comes out of the whirlwind bragging how big and strong he is, like saying, let me kick Job too, while he's down.

And God never owns up to Job. He never comes clean with Job, with what he allowed the devil to do to Job and his family. Instead God acts like a woman that's done something very wrong, knows it, but instead of owning up to it, goes on the offensive. Makes me wonder if God isn't a woman.

So, I fell in love with the God of Jesus early on in life. And it wasn't until later that I met the God of the Old Testament. And I never liked Him. It's like there are two different Gods ; the one Jesus spoke of and exemplified, and the one in the Old Testament.

There's only one way I've found to reconcile these two Gods. I'm forced to look upon the God of the Old Testament as Hebrew tribal mythology ... projected and used as cover for a mean, nasty, thieving, and killing, desert tribe ... who thought they were God's chosen little pets in the universe.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:52 PM   #39
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The word "man" in that verse refers to mortal, the question is what does the word "magnify" refer to? What does it mean that God magnifies man?
That's what the question is in that verse. It's asking why do you magnify man? Meaning it's a wonder that God would do so. What is man, is the question. That's pretty clear.

Bringing a book, like Hebrews, that was written hundreds of years after Job, by an unknown author, whose agenda and audience is unknown doesn't change what the original verse meant. Which had nothing to do with Jesus.

Painting pictures back into Job doesn't change the original meaning of the book of Job.

Nor how the book of Job falsely depicts God.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:54 AM   #40
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This is why I refer to the Bible as "the word of God". I cannot believe that when God inspired this word that Jesus was not His focus. Also, I think I have done an adequate job of presenting why I believe that God's answer to this question is Jesus.

Your answer here is a matter of "moving the goalposts". You asked for NT verse references that connect Job with my interpretation. I gave you that. You then respond that it doesn't matter because somehow you know that this was not what the writer was thinking. That reasoning would negate much of what we consider the Bible and the word of God.

This is the crux of the dispute. It is not WL teachings, or the use of metaphor, or providing NT references, or misreading the language. The dispute is that, despite all of the evidence, you believe that this is the word of man and I believe it is the word of God.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:57 AM   #41
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Bro Z you are just full of surprises...
I also had an experience where it seemed I met this OT God who was unlike the NT Jesus that saved me. I also rejected this determining that I had believed in a Life Giving Spirit, not a God of condemnation and death. I felt somewhat condemned that several years of answered prayer seemed to culminate in a ministry of condemnation and death.

However, after a few years the Lord was able to open my eyes and I saw that I was just one more answered prayer from having those death waters, that were filled to the brim, changed to wine. I was convicted that the Jesus I believed in was well able to answer that prayer, only I hadn't prayed it.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:20 AM   #42
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This is why I refer to the Bible as "the word of God"...
Excellent summary of events and conclusion, and this what I find to be so tragic with some of the saints who have over-reacted to LC indoctrinations. In their attempts to purge their souls of all WL/LC teachings and practices, they have unfortunately discarded the good with the bad.

There are other posters who seem to think nothing of it, since they both share the same distaste for the LRC, but then they become troubled with me when I discuss the need to purge the leaven of WL, exercising discernment between the good and the worthless.

My journey has not been easy, but thank the Lord that I left both the church of Rome and the church of Anaheim still believing the Bible was the word of God. This thread has been particularly valuable concerning the book of Job, and worthy of further review.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:23 AM   #43
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ZNP I really like you. You're as wacky as I am. Job 7:17 is not a reference to Jesus. It's clearly a reference to humankind....
But not the "humankind" that you so often speak of awareness. This is a different "kind" of humankind.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:41 AM   #44
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Excellent summary of events and conclusion, and this what I find to be so tragic with some of the saints who have over-reacted to LC indoctrinations. In their attempts to purge their souls of all WL/LC teachings and practices, they have unfortunately discarded the good with the bad.

There are other posters who seem to think nothing of it, since they both share the same distaste for the LRC, but then they become troubled with me when I discuss the need to purge the leaven of WL, exercising discernment between the good and the worthless.

My journey has not been easy, but thank the Lord that I left both the church of Rome and the church of Anaheim still believing the Bible was the word of God. This thread has been particularly valuable concerning the book of Job, and worthy of further review.
The irony to me is that, would anyone consider that awareness' (and my) attitude toward the OT could have come from the LRC?
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:04 AM   #45
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This is why I refer to the Bible as "the word of God". I cannot believe that when God inspired this word that Jesus was not His focus. Also, I think I have done an adequate job of presenting why I believe that God's answer to this question is Jesus.

Your answer here is a matter of "moving the goalposts". You asked for NT verse references that connect Job with my interpretation. I gave you that. You then respond that it doesn't matter because somehow you know that this was not what the writer was thinking. That reasoning would negate much of what we consider the Bible and the word of God.

This is the crux of the dispute. It is not WL teachings, or the use of metaphor, or providing NT references, or misreading the language. The dispute is that, despite all of the evidence, you believe that this is the word of man and I believe it is the word of God.
Another great post bro Z. And believe me I know what you are saying. I've been there. I grew up with the Bible being the word of God.

But now I don't think we should go so far with this magic Bible concept that we dismiss the fact the every book of the Bible was penned by man/men ... and then edited and added to afterwards by other men.

And therefore reflect those men's view of the world back then. This is why God in the book of Job is said to look upon the earth, with its foundation and cornerstone, as a three layered cake, with a flat earth, Hades below and heaven just above the blue sky.

Of course we now know that the earth isn't flat. And God back then knew it too. Basically, the writers of Job projected their limited understanding upon God. And those words aren't the word of God. They are words of men of limited understanding.

But don't mistake me. Just because they are words of men doesn't mean they are not invaluable. Job is a great book.

In the end the book of Job reveals that good men suffer misfortune. And there is an indifference to it. We see it all the time in catastrophes of all kinds. Just look at what's happening in Texas. Even Rick Perry's Christapalosa rain prayers didn't work. Texas is now on fire. Perry should be disqualified for president because his massive prayers didn't work, but made matters worse. God is indifferent to it. Misfortune, and indifference to it is, a hard truth of life.

Thus, the book of Job is a great book of tragic comedy. And that is why after the death of my son I was drawn to read it over and over again.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:20 AM   #46
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But not the "humankind" that you so often speak of awareness. This is a different "kind" of humankind.
Yes, you are so right. Back then it was a different humankind than today. It was a humankind that was very limited in their understanding of the cosmos. And a humankind that was dominated by mythologies of all kinds ... that were considered true. Mythologies that we now look back on as lies.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:13 AM   #47
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This thread has been particularly valuable concerning the book of Job, and worthy of further review.
I'm glad Ohio finds this thread valuable, considering that he declared the questions that led to it as "inappropriate for the forum".
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:26 AM   #48
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I'm glad Ohio finds this thread valuable, considering that he declared the questions that led to it as "inappropriate for the forum".
Fortunately some of the answers were more appropriate than the questions.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:32 AM   #49
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Yes, you are so right. Back then it was a different humankind than today. It was a humankind that was very limited in their understanding of the cosmos. And a humankind that was dominated by mythologies of all kinds ... that were considered true. Mythologies that we now look back on as lies.
The Bible does have verses that speak of humankind in the most positive way (e.g. pointing to Christ) and also there are verses which speak of humankind in the most negative way. Apparently these two kinds of verses appear contradictory, but in context, I have never been bothered by the "conflict."
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:52 AM   #50
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Ok Harold, ZPN and others here, it's time to move forward on this thread. I think everybody has a real good handle on where you both sit, and it's getting rather tedious watching both of you talk over and past each other.

Harold I would like to see you be more of a theologian here then a philosopher and humanist. This is going to be very hard for you since you apparently take much of the Bible to be "mythology". Furthermore, if you really believe that Christianity revolves around "this magic Bible concept" then maybe you are in the wrong area of the forum. I stuck this thread in the “apologetics” area so that maybe we could keep all the discussions within the general realm of Christian apologetics and theology.

After seeing what you have quoted here maybe we are talking about some sort of “irreconcilable difference”.
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So, I fell in love with the God of Jesus early on in life. And it wasn't until later that I met the God of the Old Testament. And I never liked Him. It's like there are two different Gods ; the one Jesus spoke of and exemplified, and the one in the Old Testament.
The Jesus that you fell in love with was sent to us from this very same “God of the Old Testament”. The Jesus you fell in love with proclaimed “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3) This Jesus also quoted frequently from the Old Testament, and never once did He tell anybody that any of it was mythology, rather “until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”. So the God that Jesus spoke of and exemplified is the very same “God of the Old Testament”, and if you cannot accept this then it will make discussions a very, very rough road for both you and those whom you engage. It’s even rougher for those lurking and trying to follow along, and this is of my utmost concern.

Maybe I’ll set up a “debate” area, I think this would suit you much better. You can then lock horns with ZNP and others where the playing field would be much wider – to include humanistic and philosophical considerations along side of the standard Christian apologetic and theological realms.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:02 AM   #51
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Concerning Job, Jack Miles, Jesuit seminarian and Distinguished Professor of English and Religious Studies at the University of California, Irvine, commenting on the book of Job, said “If God occasionally becomes a demon, mankind must disobey him. If God is capable of testing mankind by masquerading as a demon, then paradoxically mankind can only please God and pass the test by defying God.”
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:48 AM   #52
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Okay bro UntoHim, thanks for moving things around to better facilitate discussions.

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Ok Harold, ZPN and others here, it's time to move forward on this thread. I think everybody has a real good handle on where you both sit, and it's getting rather tedious watching both of you talk over and past each other.
I think bro Z and others of us are having a great discussion. I'm not reading past bro Z, nor is he past me. We're just struggling to make our points. And good points have been made, especially by bro Z and Ohio.

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Harold I would like to see you be more of a theologian here then a philosopher and humanist.
I'm like Popeye : "I 'yams whats I ams, and dats all that I 'yams" ...

I'm an ex-local churcher, and my tree was bent by that storm. And shaped by it.

I remember it clearly, still today. After leaving the local church I was in great turmoil. Cognitive Dissonance was running wild in me brain. Where does one go, what does one do, after leaving The Eternal Purpose of God?

During this crazy milieu, one morning I awoke and sat up in bed, thinking, 'boy I fell for everything without question, without knowing anything I gave my life to and believed in.'

And right then and there I determined I wasn't going to be that way anymore. I determined than that I would study everything I had been involved in in the LC and before, and seek God's guidance to do it.

That has been quite a journey. God has led me to truth at any cost.

Just recently, for example, God led me to the present book I'm reading. God spoke thru brother Zeek. The book is One Jesus, Many Christs" (Click it to see it on Amazon). It's about the many ways early Christians went after Jesus.

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This is going to be very hard for you since you apparently take much of the Bible to be "mythology". Furthermore, if you really believe that Christianity revolves around "this magic Bible concept" then maybe you are in the wrong area of the forum. I stuck this thread in the “apologetics” area so that maybe we could keep all the discussions within the general realm of Christian apologetics and theology.
Not so bro UnToHim. We still need a baseline. And the Bible is that baseline, man or God written, cuz it's all we've got.

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The Jesus that you fell in love with was sent to us from this very same “God of the Old Testament”. The Jesus you fell in love with proclaimed “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3) This Jesus also quoted frequently from the Old Testament, and never once did He tell anybody that any of it was mythology, rather “until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”.
If so then why aren't we all Nazarenes, like James at Jerusalem, the brother of Jesus, who were totally practicing the law and customs of Judaism. Why did the gentiles and Rome hijack the Christian movement, and suppress the James version of following Jesus? Why do we break the Ten Commandments and not honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy?

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So the God that Jesus spoke of and exemplified is the very same “God of the Old Testament”,
It's not a matter of God. God is God. "I am that I am" ... and it's not our business to God what he is.

It's rather a matter of depictions of God, and that is the human part of the Bible. Men come up with depictions of God, in the Bible, that defame God, and make him a heartless monster, meaner than the meanest human ; a serial killer ; genocidal, with indifference to suffering, even to innocents. Like telling the Israelite's "kill everything that takes breath," even the livestock and critters ... even after inscribing on stone "Thou shalt not kill."

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It’s even rougher for those lurking and trying to follow along, and this is of my utmost concern.
Fret not bro UnToHim, the Lord has led many down the same road I've been on since the local church, and will lead many others as well. Who are you, or we, to decide for others where the Lord wishes to lead them after they leave the local church?

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....where the playing field would be much wider – to include humanistic and philosophical considerations along side of the standard Christian apologetic and theological realms.
I don't wish to lock horns. Why see it that way? We're having honest discussions out here. Sure we'll have problems here and there, understanding each other, but we'll get along. We're all adults, and should be able to have honest discussions without getting our panties in a wad. Just because I don't always agree with bro ZNP, doesn't mean I don't respect him or care less for him. I appreciate ZNP's view points. He's obviously a smart man.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:59 AM   #53
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Concerning Job, Jack Miles, Jesuit seminarian and Distinguished Professor of English and Religious Studies at the University of California, Irvine, commenting on the book of Job, said “If God occasionally becomes a demon, mankind must disobey him. If God is capable of testing mankind by masquerading as a demon, then paradoxically mankind can only please God and pass the test by defying God.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is a load of silliness.

God neither becomes a demon nor masquerades as one.

What Job is about is God stripping Job of everything but God himself. No matter what happens, God remains good, and if you cling to God you will eventually experience ultimate, infinite, eternal good. But if you fall for the line of the short-sighted unbelievers who blanche at the stripping process, you will be deceived and miss out.

Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.

We are allowed to ask "why" though. As in "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God knows better than us. The sooner we figure that out the sooner we'll drop these man-centered interpretations of Job.

Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:06 AM   #54
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Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.
Well that's debatable. I've read that at one point on record the Roman's hung 4000 Pharisees on the cross at one time. The Romans used the cross against all insurgents against the Roman occupation of the Holy Land.

But you are right. The Jesus answer to suffering and misfortune is to embrace it. "Take up my cross."
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #55
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Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.
The best verse in the book of Job :

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Funny, he was already in dust and ashes ....
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:42 AM   #56
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is a load of silliness.

God neither becomes a demon nor masquerades as one.

What Job is about is God stripping Job of everything but God himself. No matter what happens, God remains good, and if you cling to God you will eventually experience ultimate, infinite, eternal good. But if you fall for the line of the short-sighted unbelievers who blanche at the stripping process, you will be deceived and miss out.

Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.

We are allowed to ask "why" though. As in "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God knows better than us. The sooner we figure that out the sooner we'll drop these man-centered interpretations of Job.

Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.
Here's what the book says:

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Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
6 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.” 7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
Satan says to God "stretch out your hand... and he will curse your face. The Lord answers, " Very well... he is in your hands."

How can we explain this close association between the Lord and Satan? Satan says if you stretch out your hand, and God answers "very well" as if agreeing to strike Job, but then says "he is in your hands". It's as if God's hands are synonymous with Satan's.

As awareness has pointed out, how could the omnisicent Lord not already know what was in Job's heart? At the very least, we must admit that God allows evil. But if we are not to lapse into Gnostic dualism, how can we not but admit that God, the ultimate source of everything must also be the ultimate source of evil?
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:45 AM   #57
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Here's what the book says:
Satan says to God "stretch out your hand... and he will curse your face. The Lord answers, " Very well... he is in your hands."
How can we explain this close association between the Lord and Satan? Satan says if you stretch out your hand, and God answers "very well" as if agreeing to strike Job, but then says "he is in your hands". It's as if God's hands are synonymous with Satan's.
As awareness has pointed out, how could the omnisicent Lord not already know what was in Job's heart? At the very least, we must admit that God allows evil. But if we are not to lapse into Gnostic dualism, how can we not but admit that God, the ultimate source of everything must also be the ultimate source of evil?
God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:33 AM   #58
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God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."
Now Harold what did I just tell you about being myopic when quoting a single verse?

Here's the WHOLE VERSE:
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. NASB
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things. KJV

The more modern of the English translations, the NASB, renders a more true sense of the Hebrew here. Notice how light is juxtaposed with darkness, then peace is juxtaposed with "evil". The word translated “peace” here is the all-too-familiar Hebrew “Shalom” – the word translated “evil” is a somewhat more obscure (to us) Hewbrew “Ra”. So what shall we suppose to be the opposite of “Shalom/Peace”? It would certainly not be what the English reader would understand as “Evil”, at least not in the conventional sense of the word.(as you have implied). It would be more along the lines of “un-peace” or “anti peace”, thus the rendering of the NASB “calamity”.

For a complete treatment of this see: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/create_evil.html

Harold if you are going to be quoting God and his Word don’t be so off-the-cuff and sloppy.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:11 PM   #59
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Don't be so quick to jump me bro. I have quoted the whole verse on this forum more than once. And referenced book, chapter and verse.

From Strongs, on the word evil (calamity) in the verse

H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]


Does that meet your standard of thoroughness?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:30 PM   #60
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Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

Consider the following syllogism.

God created everything.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.

If God did not create everything, then someone else could have created evil. But then you have two creators and hence, reality is dualistic and God is not all powerful.

There is also a theological tradition that evil does not really exist. Evil is merely the absence of good. If so, there is no devil or Satan.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:46 PM   #61
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Harold you missed the point, and on purpose I suspect.

God did not say "I create evil". The Hebrew word rendered "evil" was juxtaposed to "Shalom". This comparison was made immediately after comparison of light and darkness. The comparisons could not be more clearer. Would you argue that the opposite of light is not darkness? The opposite of shalom/peace is NOT "evil" in the conventional understanding of the word in English.

You are doing what Witness Lee did when he taught that when the word spirit (pneuma) is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:45 it MUST refer to the Holy Spirit, and he did this despite the context of the whole verse and whole chapter it was placed within.

I am not being flippant when I say we need to interpret the Bible with the Bible. This does not mean that we cannot bring other forms of logic and common sense into the mix, especially when it comes to the matter of context.

Does it teach anywhere in the Bible that God created evil? Did any of the prophets teach that God created evil? Did any of the writers of the New Testament teach that God created evil?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:51 PM   #62
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Consider the following syllogism.

God created everything.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.

If God did not create everything, then someone else could have created evil. But then you have two creators and hence, reality is dualistic and God is not all powerful.

There is also a theological tradition that evil does not really exist. Evil is merely the absence of good. If so, there is no devil or Satan.
Were jumping back into the topic of Elvis has left the building. After all that still the same...

Evil is good gone wrong. If pure evil existed then I would put into question whether or not that was created from a all good God. But I cannot. Anything anyone has ever done, any evil act can be rationalized to benefit one group/person. unless some kind of irrational mental disability was present.

God did not create evil. God created the possibility of choice which allowed for "good gone wrong".

And were back to free will again lookie here..
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #63
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God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."
Why do you keep quoting that awareness.

Do you like taking that verse out of context?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #64
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Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Did God create the Jet Airplane? Did God create the evilness in those men that flew the Jet Airplane into the World Trade Center?

This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum. It will only lead us to discussions of the "endless questions" that the Word warns us not to delve into.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:32 PM   #65
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Why do you keep quoting that awareness.

Do you like taking that verse out of context?
How does the context negate "I do these things, I create evil."

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:41 PM   #66
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Were jumping back into the topic of Elvis has left the building. After all that still the same...

Evil is good gone wrong. If pure evil existed then I would put into question whether or not that was created from a all good God. But I cannot. Anything anyone has ever done, any evil act can be rationalized to benefit one group/person. unless some kind of irrational mental disability was present.

God did not create evil. God created the possibility of choice which allowed for "good gone wrong".

And were back to free will again lookie here..
In the parable of Job, it is not humans doing evil. It's God and the devil conspiring together to do evil to humans and critters [Job's children, servents, and sheep]. The fire that burned up the servants and the she ids called "the fire of God" chapter 1:16. I'm not making this stuff up. It's right in the Bible.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:08 PM   #67
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Okay bro UntoHim, thanks for moving things around to better facilitate discussions.

I think bro Z and others of us are having a great discussion. I'm not reading past bro Z, nor is he past me. We're just struggling to make our points. And good points have been made
Once again, I am going to have to agree with Awareness. I don't think we have locked horns, I don't think we are talking past each other, and I do think that with each post we are both making headway.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:19 PM   #68
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I'm like Popeye : "I 'yams whats I ams, and dats all that I 'yams" ...

I'm an ex-local churcher, and my tree was bent by that storm. And shaped by it.
OMG! The LRC did this to you! Who could do such a thing!
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:20 PM   #69
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The best verse in the book of Job :

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Funny, he was already in dust and ashes ....
So true, only he hadn't repented until that point.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:35 PM   #70
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It's not a matter of God. God is God. "I am that I am" ... and it's not our business to God what he is.

It's rather a matter of depictions of God, and that is the human part of the Bible. Men come up with depictions of God, in the Bible, that defame God, and make him a heartless monster, meaner than the meanest human ; a serial killer ; genocidal, with indifference to suffering, even to innocents. Like telling the Israelite's "kill everything that takes breath," even the livestock and critters ... even after inscribing on stone "Thou shalt not kill."
This is precisely why I disagree with UntoHim, it is posts like this that are getting somewhere. Awareness your view of the book of Job is very common, it is quite similar to what OBW shared, it is even quite similar to what WL shared. Others have shown that you can find many Bible teachers that teach the same thing. However, your interpretation results in the God portrayed in the Book of Job being very different from the God who gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe on Him would not perish but would be saved. As a result you are forced to reject the God portrayed in Job as being man's depiction.

Now I appreciate you for doing this, because at least you have gone one step further than most Christians who decide they don't understand the book, so lets just move on to something we do understand.

However, in Science we know that regardless of how bizarre our observations are, we need to understand them, not ignore them. That is how penicillin was discovered, and that is why gravity has confounded us to this day.

You decided that the solution to the issue was that the God depicted in Job is not the God that was incarnated as a man. I rejected that conclusion because if that was so, how do you explain Jesus quoting Job, and Paul quoting Job when he preaches the gospel in Acts, or Paul quoting Job in Romans, or the writer of Hebrews quoting Job, or the Apostle Peter quoting it, or James, or the Apostle John's numerous quotes of Job? I see absolutely no basis from any of the Apostles to say that the God of the book of Job is different from the God of the NT. In fact, I think there is plenty of NT evidence that the Apostles saw that the book of Job revealed God's purpose and plan in having his son die on the cross.

This is my issue with your interpretation, which to be fair is also WL's interpretation, and is very common in Christianity. How do you reconcile that portrayal of God with Jesus? I appreciate that you have pointed this out, but just because the question is seemingly very difficult to answer, I believe that I did find the answer. I believe that even you have said that my interpretation of Job is very consistent with God's purpose, His redemption, the Cross of Christ, etc.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:41 PM   #71
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Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Did God create the Jet Airplane? Did God create the evilness in those men that flew the Jet Airplane into the World Trade Center?

This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum. It will only lead us to discussions of the "endless questions" that the Word warns us not to delve into.

Hallelujah! Now we don't just have to mindlessly pray-read the teaching of Witness Lee. We can actually use our God-given mind to think about what this profound book might mean!

God must have created everything. God is omniscient and omnipotent. Everything must have come from God. God must have known that his creation had the potential for sin, greed and jet airplanes, and men flying into the World Trade Center. Yet he created it anyway. This is the problem of evil. This is the theme of the parable of Job.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:41 PM   #72
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I stuck this thread in the “apologetics” area so that maybe we could keep all the discussions within the general realm of Christian apologetics and theology.
I think that the two books that WL trashed the most were the book of James in the NT and the book of Job in the OT. Concerning the book of Job WL said there was nothing of God's purpose or plan (See Life Study message #29).

Therefore I think this discussion is really at the heart of this forum on the Local Church. If you are going to evaluate WL's teachings it is really only fair if you focus on his Life Studies of the Bible, which in my mind was his most important work. Of the Life Studies I think the book of Job and the book of James should be examined with the highest priority. (Likewise the book of Psalms was somewhat of a hack job in my estimation.)
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:03 PM   #73
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How does the context negate "I do these things, I create evil."

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You can look up any interpretation on the "create evil" verse.

It does not mean moral evil.

But you properly look into the words "evil" was translated from it means more "calamity"

I think it is consistent with the gospels and OT that God created calamity in that sense. He has every right to test those to see if they are worthy of him. We see in Israel that he allowed the Babylonians to take over Isreal. So that he could have a remnant that would follow him and learn from their mistakes.

Since the beginning God gave human being the choice of allowing or dis-obeying. Tree of knowledge and to partake of it can be interpreted in every sense as calamity for Adam and Eve.

God will punish those who dis-obey him. I dont see how that is evil. God can take away what he gave you, I dont see what is evil about that.

So stop using that verse to try to convince others that this means Moral evil.

It simply means that God will punish those who dis-obey.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)


This verse is to convey opposites. The opposite or prosperity is not moral evil. It is unpeace, or disaster.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:02 PM   #74
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You can look up any interpretation on the "create evil" verse.

It does not mean moral evil.

But you properly look into the words "evil" was translated from it means more "calamity"

I think it is consistent with the gospels and OT that God created calamity in that sense. He has every right to test those to see if they are worthy of him. We see in Israel that he allowed the Babylonians to take over Isreal. So that he could have a remnant that would follow him and learn from their mistakes.

Since the beginning God gave human being the choice of allowing or dis-obeying. Tree of knowledge and to partake of it can be interpreted in every sense as calamity for Adam and Eve.

God will punish those who dis-obey him. I dont see how that is evil. God can take away what he gave you, I dont see what is evil about that.

So stop using that verse to try to convince others that this means Moral evil.

It simply means that God will punish those who dis-obey.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)


This verse is to convey opposites. The opposite or prosperity is not moral evil. It is unpeace, or disaster.
Matt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

God creates the floods, and hurricanes, and fires, and earthquakes and volcanoes, and tsunamis, etc. However, what is evil is when someone builds a nuclear power plant on the coast and doesn't provide the proper safeguards so that if a Typhoon, or earthquake or tsunami were to knock out the power they can prevent a calamity. What is evil is telling the public that everything is safe, and taking billions of taxpayer dollars to build this, but leaving out basic safeguards that could have been there and should have been there.

What is truly evil is not the earthquake, but it is the city that was built on sand (Kobe) which was over a fault zone. A city that any geologist could have told you would be destroyed by liquefaction when the earthquake hits. Yet they build it in blindness.

What is truly evil is taking hundreds of millions of dollars to wall up the Mississippi river when any geologist could tell you that the result would be total catastrophe if a hurricane hits.

What is truly evil is fighting terrorism with little remote control airplanes that anyone could afford to build. Teaching the entire world of potential terrorists that you don't need a 747 to strike terror into a US city.

These calamities demonstrate that our societies and civilization is built on sand, not on the rock. We did not listen to these sayings of Jesus and we did not do them. This is why the calamities are evil.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:03 PM   #75
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[COLOR="Blue"]Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.
Well the book of Job reveals that God let's the devil do his dirty work ... and limits him. So God is too behind evil, ultimately. Sorry UnToHim, but that's what the Bible says.

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This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum.
I'm glad you brought this up. So what and who belongs on this forum? I thought anyone out or in the local church belongs on this forum.

So is this forum only for those that came out of the LC and became Bible thumpin evangelicals or fundamentalists?

I thump the Bible. But I'm not an evangelical or fundamentalist.

Witness Lee based his whole theology on the Bible being the word of God. In that way he was able to puzzle piece verses of the Bible together to develop his systematized theology.

So as far as I'm concerned, that assumption and premise is fair game.

But if not, if there are perimeters that limit exLCers from sharing what they've become since the local church, and they have to come out with only certain beliefs and points of view, please let us know.

Maybe I don't belong on this forum.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:10 PM   #76
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.....I'm glad you brought this up. So what and who belongs on this forum? I thought anyone out or in the local church belongs on this forum.....

But if not, if there are perimeters that limit exLCers from sharing what they've become since the local church, and they have to come out with only certain beliefs and points of view, please let us know.

Maybe I don't belong on this forum.
I cast my lot in with awareness...
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:12 PM   #77
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What is truly evil is not the earthquake, but it is the city that was built on sand (Kobe) which was over a fault zone. A city that any geologist could have told you would be destroyed by liquefaction when the earthquake hits. Yet they build it in blindness.

What is truly evil is taking hundreds of millions of dollars to wall up the Mississippi river when any geologist could tell you that the result would be total catastrophe if a hurricane hits.

What is truly evil is fighting terrorism with little remote control airplanes that anyone could afford to build. Teaching the entire world of potential terrorists that you don't need a 747 to strike terror into a US city.

These calamities demonstrate that our societies and civilization is built on sand, not on the rock. We did not listen to these sayings of Jesus and we did not do them. This is why the calamities are evil.
So, where do you live again, Mr. ZNP, I forget?
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:54 PM   #78
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I cast my lot in with awareness...

Excellent! So do I. Thanks Ray.

But since when is a philosophical bottomless pit a WHO? I think it's a WHAT and that was my point. Unless somebody registers under the unsername "philosophical bottomless pit" then I think everybody's gonna be safe. Not to worry guys!

Now, the title of this thread is "Lee and the book of Job". The thread starter has yet to really get into Lee's commentary of the book of Job. Instead he has continually been thrusting upon us his well-known views of the Bible being mostly a collection of fables, parables and myths. This wouldn't be so bad a thing if he would stick to the most basic rules of logic and working within obvious context.

Let's see if my friend awareness cares to color within the lines for awhile.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:51 PM   #79
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Excellent! So do I. Thanks Ray.

But since when is a philosophical bottomless pit a WHO? I think it's a WHAT and that was my point. Unless somebody registers under the unsername "philosophical bottomless pit" then I think everybody's gonna be safe. Not to worry guys!

Now, the title of this thread is "Lee and the book of Job". The thread starter has yet to really get into Lee's commentary of the book of Job. Instead he has continually been thrusting upon us his well-known views of the Bible being mostly a collection of fables, parables and myths. This wouldn't be so bad a thing if he would stick to the most basic rules of logic and working within obvious context.

Let's see if my friend awareness cares to color within the lines for awhile.
Good point. And thanks fer the welcome. Sorry I get carried away at times, and color outside the lines.

But I think Witness Lee done a bad job on the book of Job Life-Study precisely because he couldn't admit the truths revealed in Job, between God, the devil, and Job and his family.

It's hard to admit that God can be indifferent to suffering and misfortune. But we see it all the time. We saw it recently with hurricane Irene, over 40 died, and now with the drought and fires in Texas, even after over 3000 believers in the Bible as the word of God praying for rain. God said no ... and here's some fires.

The Jews during the Holocaust put God on trial for being indifferent to their suffering, and found Him guilty. Then afterwards went back to their respective cells to pray.

As humans we just have to accept the indifference of God. And there's nothing we can do about it.

The answer in a nutshell of Jesus was to just surrender to it.

And Lord knows many times, during suffering beyond anything I've ever contemplated, I've found victory in surrendering.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:43 PM   #80
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But I think Witness Lee done a bad job on the book of Job Life-Study precisely because he couldn't admit the truths revealed in Job, between God, the devil, and Job and his family.

It's hard to admit that God can be indifferent to suffering and misfortune. But we see it all the time. We saw it recently with hurricane Irene, over 40 died, and now with the drought and fires in Texas, even after over 3000 believers in the Bible as the word of God praying for rain. God said no ... and here's some fires.

The Jews during the Holocaust put God on trial for being indifferent to their suffering, and found Him guilty. Then afterwards went back to their respective cells to pray.

As humans we just have to accept the indifference of God. And there's nothing we can do about it.

The answer in a nutshell of Jesus was to just surrender to it.

And Lord knows many times, during suffering beyond anything I've ever contemplated, I've found victory in surrendering.
In Message 3 of the Life Study of Job, WL said "The Bible shows us that although after God judged Satan, God still allowed him to be free to accuse, attack, damage, persecute, and martyr His saints"

Awareness, isn't this what you are saying?
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:48 PM   #81
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The Jews during the Holocaust put God on trial for being indifferent to their suffering, and found Him guilty. Then afterwards went back to their respective cells to pray.

As humans we just have to accept the indifference of God. And there's nothing we can do about it.
This is a non sequitor. As a direct result of the holocaust Israel petitioned for and received the right to set up the nation of Israel. The return to Israel by the Jews in 1948 was definitely something that Israel and others did about the holocaust. The reasoning was simple, we cannot trust the laws of other countries to keep us safe, the only thing we can do is form a country and fight to protect our own rights.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:58 PM   #82
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The answer in a nutshell of Jesus was to just surrender to it.

And Lord knows many times, during suffering beyond anything I've ever contemplated, I've found victory in surrendering.
Jesus did not just "surrender to it". He demonstrated clearly that the foundation of a government is righteousness. Expose the unrighteousness and you destroy the foundation. This would never have happened if He hadn't been a spotless lamb or if He had been careless in speaking.

Second, any historian can see the corruption, lies and deceit in all of the various human governments through the ages. What better way to require that the man on whom human government would be placed would be one who had been tested and found faithful even unto death, and that the death of a cross?

To ignore the defeat of Satan and the resurrection of Jesus is ignore a major portion of the cross.

Did Mahtma Ghandi just "surrender to the suffering of the British" or did he also defeat them in the process? They once mocked, asking him "do you think we will just get up and walk out of your country?" His response was "yes, that is precisely what you will do".

He could have organized a rebellion, as the future Pakistan leaders wished, but that would have led to a civil war and chaos. As it was, it was an amazing transition of power in human history.

Did God create the British govt that was taking advantage of India? Yes. Did God also create Mahtma Ghandi that all may see, not just the "christian" countries, but even the non Christian that there is none beside God and that He does all these things?
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:35 PM   #83
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...

Did God also create Mahtma Ghandi that all may see, not just the "christian" countries, but even the non Christian that there is none beside God and that He does all these things?
Ghandi was actually raised in Africa in a Christian school. The concepts of "non violent protest" and equality were actually learned there. There were no such teachings in India. People stayed in the caste that they were born into. You did not join the other caste for any reason.
Ghandi liked Christ but was not so impressed with Christians.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:05 PM   #84
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Ghandi liked Christ but was not so impressed with Christians.
Sounds a lot like my good friend awareness.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:35 PM   #85
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This is a non sequitor. As a direct result of the holocaust Israel petitioned for and received the right to set up the nation of Israel. The return to Israel by the Jews in 1948 was definitely something that Israel and others did about the holocaust.
Kinda like a consolation prize?
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:03 AM   #86
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This section on Israel being grafted in is concluded in Rom 11:33 “O the dept of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” This quote parallels Job 35:7. And Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Parallels Job 21:22. Rom. 11:35 – “Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” is quoted from Job 41:11
Who is grafted into whom?
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:35 AM   #87
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In Message 3 of the Life Study of Job, WL said "The Bible shows us that although after God judged Satan, God still allowed him to be free to accuse, attack, damage, persecute, and martyr His saints"

Awareness, isn't this what you are saying?
Sort of. But when Satan showed up at the gathering of the sons of God did God act like Satan had been judged?
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:16 AM   #88
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Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:18 AM   #89
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Sort of. But when Satan showed up at the gathering of the sons of God did God act like Satan had been judged?
He acted a lot like DSK
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:20 AM   #90
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Ghandi was actually raised in Africa in a Christian school. The concepts of "non violent protest" and equality were actually learned there. There were no such teachings in India. People stayed in the caste that they were born into. You did not join the other caste for any reason.
Ghandi liked Christ but was not so impressed with Christians.
Some interesting quotes by Gandhi

"Everyone thinks Jesus was a pacifist, except the Christians."

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.”

“God has no religion”

I am a Muslim and a Hindu and a Christian and a Jew and so are all of you.

But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian.

About this time, I heard of a well known Hindu having been converted to Christianity. It was the talk of the town that, when he was baptized, he had to eat beef and drink liquor, that he also had to change his clothes, and that thenceforth he began to go about in European costume including a hat. These things got on my nerves. Surely, thought I, a religion that compelled one to eat beef, drink liquor, and change one's own clothes did not deserve the name. I also heard that the new convert had already begun abusing the religion of his ancestors, their customs and their country. All these things created in me a dislike for Christianity.

I was able to reassure him and tell him that the distorted belief of a Plymouth Brother could not prejudice me against Christianity.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:31 AM   #91
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Sounds a lot like my good friend awareness.
Also, sounds like Witness Lee, with his poor, poor, poor Christianity ..
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:39 AM   #92
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Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.
So our dearest brother ZNP is being Lee-esque with his interpretation of the book of Job. His needle is stuck on one track : Job = Jesus ... Job = Jesus...

But in the end : Col 3:11b "but Christ is all, and in all."
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:44 AM   #93
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Kinda like a consolation prize?
If you disagree with ZNP's "Question of Balance," concerning the plight of Israel, then remember the prequel was salvation for their "Children's children's children."

Sorry about getting carried away with that Blues theme. I'm sure OBW and STG can relate.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:56 AM   #94
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So our dearest brother ZNP is being Lee-esque with his interpretation of the book of Job. His needle is stuck on one track : Job = Jesus ... Job = Jesus...

But in the end : Col 3:11b "but Christ is all, and in all."
You are wrong, I have moved on to 8 track now, I no longer use vinyl.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:02 AM   #95
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Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.
Which is why the LSM push to make WL the MOTA and stifle all other voices is so negative. If WL was merely one brother and you had many others speaking as well it would be wonderful and healthy. Once you lose the balance of the Body then the ship tips over and sinks. Gene Gruhler was something of a one issue brother when I was in the LRC, he seemed to always give conferences on the children's work. As just one of many voices that was wonderful and healthy. the Body needs balance.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #96
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You are wrong, I have moved on to 8 track now, I no longer use vinyl.
Yeah awareness, what were you thinking?

Stuck needles sound so much worse than garbled 8-tracks.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:47 AM   #97
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Footnote to a footnote: Ghandi's use of non-violent passive resistence was influenced by Leo Tolstoy's book "The Kingdom of God is Within You." The title of the book is taken from Luke 17:21. In the book Tolstoy speaks of the principle of non-violent resistance when confronted by violence, as taught by Jesus (see Christian pacifism). Tolstoy sought to separate Orthodox Russian Christianity, which was merged with the state, from what he believed was the true message of Jesus Christ, as contained in the Gospels, specifically the Sermon on the Mount. Source: Wikipedia
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:55 AM   #98
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You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.
It seems to me that a thousand years would be a just sentence for a mass murderer or serial killer who killed 10 people. It seems like overkill for not showing up for meetings. I'm just sayin'. :rollingeyes2:
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:56 AM   #99
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Sorry, but I couldn’t resist a little of this thread. I am quick to admit that the Moody Blues were just secular rock stars who had a philosophical bent. Probably more like 5 philosophical bents.

But in the midst of all of it, when it wasn’t just love songs, they showed that seeking people are everywhere. And there is truth beyond the pulpit or the Bible. I’m not saying that there is different truth that contradicts, but that truth is found all around (everywhere, love is all around). And just because it was not originated from the pages of scripture does not make it untrue.

(Side note. I see awareness is going McLaren on us saying that the goal is that the Hindu would be a better Hindu, etc. That is true at a level. But for the Christian, it is not just that they would be better, but that they would come to know and follow the one true God. Yes, pray that they all become better. Pray for the peace and prosperity of the heathen within which we are sojourners, just as the Israelites were told to pray for their captors in Babylon. But also pray for their salvation.)

For us, it’s not just “out there somewhere.” We’re not just looking for a miracle in our lives. It’s not just in our wildest dreams.

Do we stop and look around us? Do we say it with love? (I know some are asking me that about now.) And do we really think that we decide which is right, and which is an illusion? Is our view a Late Lament or it is Dawn?

For several years I have seriously considered myself the one speaking in:
Quote:
The curtain rises on the scene
With someone shouting to be free
The play unfolds before my eyes
There stand the actor who is . . . me
There is a word, but the word is not “om.”

As we travel this road, what will we find? Or do we think we have already found it all? While it seems that I am rejecting the “new stuff” that Lee came along with, I think that the depths of the straight reading are profound and unfathomable. We will never know it all — even the parts that are recorded in ways we think are so clear. That is the reason that people Like Justyn over at the Bereans think that the LRC’s problem is the Trinity. I agree that some of the problems are hanging off of their Trinity teaching. But their core teaching is sound.

There is a balance, but it doesn’t come from laying in the grass and eating some fruit. But as you lay there, it is seriously worthwhile to watch the show as the mouse plays a guitar with only one string.

But as we carry on, remember that while it may be a little too much to say that we are all we’ve got, we should never, never stop. But don’t bother telling me about it because I’m just a accountant in a Big 4 firm. But I’m now found in a lost world.

And just like the philosophy of the band slowly faded, my overtly manhandling of the lyrics and song titles also gets to be too much. And as someone else wrote, it’s time to Gimmie Shelter. I guess I’ll just fade away.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:59 AM   #100
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The Book of Job is the problem of evil in parable form. Struck by evil, Job appeals to the God of justice. The God who answers is not the God of justice but the God of power. The God of justice is Ultimate Justice which we know as the moral law within our mind. It is the God of whom Paul says: "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." The God of power is the God of nature who is incompatible with the God of justice. The God of Power knows no morality. It includes chaos, evil and suffering. It asserts that it is not subject to questions from mortal creatures, including man and that it has absolute freedom over everything. Yet, because Job does not lose sight of the law of justice and morality, Job is on higher ground than the God of power. His question persists and poses a challenge to God. It is a question which the New Testament seeks to answer via the incarnation of God as a man who himself suffers evil.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:02 PM   #101
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The Book of Job is the problem of evil in parable form. Struck by evil, Job appeals to the God of justice....
This is certainly a reasonable reading and one that is generally accepted by those that teach the Bible. I think it is a simple thing to point to many parts of Job to construct this teaching.

There are some nagging issues with this teaching though.

1. According to this teaching the questions are left unresolved in the book of Job and are only later answered when we get to the NT, and the Gospels. But if you read the Book of Job it does not appear that Job's questions are left unresolved. On the contrary it seems Job clearly states that God answered Job and that Job received that answer, accepted it, repented, and then all of his suffering was resolved.

2. "The God who answers is not the God of Justice but the God of Power." What this person is saying is essentially the same thing that Awareness has presented and rejected and for good reason. The book of Proverbs makes it very clear that the foundation of God's throne is righteousness. God cannot lie. He cannot sin. He cannot do evil. Doing so would shake the foundation of His throne.

3. "Struck by evil." If Job is truly "struck by evil" then that evil came at the command of God. God knew of it and allowed it. No one can deny that Satan was under the authority of God when he attacked Job. The book of Job even describes the attack on Job coming from God's hand. Once again, I agree with Awareness on this point. He uses this point to conclude that the God of the OT is different from the God of the Gospels. That is where I disagree. I believe this is the same God. If I come to you and demand $300,000 you could argue that this is unrighteous. However, if the $300,000 is in exchange for a house or something of equal value, then it changes the story. This story begins with two key criteria, first there was none like Job in all the earth, and second Job sought God.

I believe that there are few people in history that can compare with Job. No doubt Jesus is one of them, but I can understand the issue with using him as an example. I would agree that you need a second example. So these other people, not as righteous, not as godly, come to the book of Job, see the suffering, and turn white. Their teaching reflects their squeamishness.

But the real question is this: "Do you have an arm like God, do you have a voice like God". If you believe this is a serious question, and that a man in the image and likeness of God would say yes, then this is what Job was seeking, this is why the cost was so high, and this is the answer God gives. I would use the example of Mahtma Ghandi. He told the British Empire that they would get up and leave, and they did. They packed their bags, boarded onto ships and sailed away just as he said. The Lord Jesus said "if you have faith like a grain of mustard you will say unto this mountain be taken up and cast into the sea and it will obey you". This to me is what it means to have a voice like God.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:15 PM   #102
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Sorry, but I couldn’t resist a little of this thread. I am quick to admit that the Moody Blues were just secular rock stars who had a philosophical bent. Probably more like 5 philosophical bents.
Bro Mike, I personally know "the Bible is the word of God" type of Christians that love the Moody Blues.

I spoke to one of them today. He said the Moody's expressed a Christian message, and expressed Christian questions about living a spiritual life.

And I say : Amen!
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:10 PM   #103
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Job clearly states that God answered Job and that Job received that answer, accepted it, repented, and then all of his suffering was resolved.
Spoken like someone that's never lost a son/child. God, using the devil, can't take your children, then replace them with new ones, and make up for that loss. Sorry. It doesn't work that way ...
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:57 PM   #104
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If you disagree with ZNP's "Question of Balance," concerning the plight of Israel, then remember the prequel was salvation for their "Children's children's children."

Sorry about getting carried away with that Blues theme. I'm sure OBW and STG can relate.
Thanks Ohio, I'm enjoying the great grand-Moodies as I type. (wikipedia and youtube are my friend)
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:07 PM   #105
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Which is why the LSM push to make WL the MOTA and stifle all other voices is so negative. If WL was merely one brother and you had many others speaking as well it would be wonderful and healthy. Once you lose the balance of the Body then the ship tips over and sinks. Gene Gruhler was something of a one issue brother when I was in the LRC, he seemed to always give conferences on the children's work. As just one of many voices that was wonderful and healthy. the Body needs balance.
I thought they were just exercising their right to freedom of speech within their own four walls?
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:39 AM   #106
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Thanks Ohio, I'm enjoying the great grand-Moodies as I type. (wikipedia and youtube are my friend)
ZNP and awareness discussed the "question of balance" which history has wrestled with, vis-a-vis whether the formation of Israel balanced the loss during the holocaust. awareness faulted God for allowing the holocaust, while ZNP pointed to the nation of Israel which resulted. I added to the mix noting that diasporic Jews at heart cared most for their children's children's children, and most ashkenazi Jews saw the self-determination afforded by the Palestinian homeland worth the price. It is a well-known fact, that as a people, the real Jews put their children first before themselves.

The Moody Blues analogy came to me when I remembered that the "Children's" album (OBW's avatar) preceded the "Question" album, (Sons to Glory's Avatar) and I pointed out that in the greater scheme of things, both God and the Jews placed their "children" first, thus outweighing the "question of balance" debate which has long existed.

On a personal note, about the only genre of music that I ever really loved was the british progressive rock of the late '60s early '70s, of which the Moody Blues excelled.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:40 AM   #107
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I miss that eight-track in the glove compartment of my '73 Dodge Polara.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:48 AM   #108
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I miss that eight-track in the glove compartment of my '73 Dodge Polara.
Yeah, great car.


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Old 09-08-2011, 06:50 AM   #109
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I thought they were just exercising their right to freedom of speech within their own four walls?
Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:21 AM   #110
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Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?
"They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, stand, and wisely stand, by the Bible and the constitution, and drink at it there with reverence and humanity; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake or that pool, gird up their loins once more, and continue their pilgrimage toward its fountainhead." - Henry David Thoreau - Civil Disobedience.....

Incidentally, both Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. credited Thoreaus' Civil Disobedience as influencing them to non-violent actions....
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:35 AM   #111
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ZNP and awareness discussed the "question of balance" which history has wrestled with, vis-a-vis whether the formation of Israel balanced the loss during the holocaust. awareness faulted God for allowing the holocaust, while ZNP pointed to the nation of Israel which resulted. I added to the mix noting that diasporic Jews at heart cared most for their children's children's children, and most ashkenazi Jews saw the self-determination afforded by the Palestinian homeland worth the price. It is a well-known fact, that as a people, the real Jews put their children first before themselves.

The Moody Blues analogy came to me when I remembered that the "Children's" album (OBW's avatar) preceded the "Question" album, (Sons to Glory's Avatar) and I pointed out that in the greater scheme of things, both God and the Jews placed their "children" first, thus outweighing the "question of balance" debate which has long existed.

On a personal note, about the only genre of music that I ever really loved was the british progressive rock of the late '60s early '70s, of which the Moody Blues excelled.
Just so everyone is clear, the guy writing this was thrown by references to Star Wars.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:04 AM   #112
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Okay, bro ZNP will like this one. In the 16th chapter of Lee's Life-Study of the book of Job, Lee brings in the Triune God and dispensing.

Lee just can't help his myopia of the Bible.

The problem is the book of Job speaks of "the sons of God." The trinity is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, so where does the sons of God fit into the trinity? Are the sons of God grouped into threes? If so, the Book of Job doesn't mention it.

But Lee still sees the dispensing of the triune God in the book of Job.

Basically, Lee sees things that aren't there in the book of Job in order to push is "God's Economy" theology. His Job reference, as shown at the beginning of this chapter is Job 10:13a : "Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak..." which is out in left field in his message.

I'll try to link the 16th chapter of the Life-Study of Job, but I've noticed that links on the online Life-Studies don't work well. So if the link doesn't work, find your way to the Life-Study of Job and go to the 16th chapter.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...3%28%40K%27%0A
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:17 AM   #113
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Okay, bro ZNP will like this one. In the 16th chapter of Lee's Life-Study of the book of Job, Lee brings in the Triune God and dispensing.

Lee just can't help his myopia of the Bible.

The problem is the book of Job speaks of "the sons of God." The trinity is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, so where does the sons of God fit into the trinity? Are the sons of God grouped into threes? If so, the Book of Job doesn't mention it.

But Lee still sees the dispensing of the triune God in the book of Job.

Basically, Lee sees things that aren't there in the book of Job in order to push is "God's Economy" theology. His Job reference, as shown at the beginning of this chapter is Job 10:13a : "Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak..." which is out in left field in his message.

I'll try to link the 16th chapter of the Life-Study of Job, but I've noticed that links on the online Life-Studies don't work well. So if the link doesn't work, find your way to the Life-Study of Job and go to the 16th chapter.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...3%28%40K%27%0A
Yes, basically he starts this message saying I want to give a further word that has nothing to do with Job. Can you imagine that people actually tolerated this?

WL: "We have seen that the book of Job leaves us with a crucial twofold question concerning God's intention in His creation of man and in His dealing with His chosen people. In this message I would like to give a further word concerning the answer to this question, an answer which is found not in the Old Testament but only in the New Testament. This answer, given by God in His revelation, is altogether concerned with the Triune God Himself."

But if you want a real laugh, look at message 17:

"LIFE-STUDY OF JOB

MESSAGE SEVENTEEN

THE ALL-INCLUSIVE SPIRIT AS THE CONSUMMATION
OF THE PROCESSED AND CONSUMMATED TRIUNE GOD


Scripture Reading: Job 42:5; John 7:39; Rom. 8:2, 9, 11, 14; Gal. 3:14; 6:18; Eph. 1:13-14; Phil. 1:19; Gal. 5:25; Rom. 8:16, 4"

This message is based on Job 42:5 -- "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

But for those of you who like canned messages, how about this favorite:

"LIFE-STUDY OF JOB

MESSAGE NINETEEN

OUR UNIQUE NEED—THE PROCESSED
AND CONSUMMATED TRIUNE GOD
AS THE ALL-INCLUSIVE, LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

Scripture Reading: Gal. 2:20; 1 Cor. 15:10; Rev. 22:17

In this message I would like to give a further word concerning the processed and consummated Triune God as the all-inclusive, life-giving Spirit."

What I think is really special about this message is the honesty, it doesn't even pretend to have anything to do with Job.

Look at these other classics reheated specially for the Book of Job:

LIFE-STUDY OF JOB

MESSAGE THIRTY-SEVEN

TWO TREES, TWO SOURCES, TWO LINES,
TWO PRINCIPLES, AND TWO ENDS
IN THE DIVINE REVELATION
OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES

and

LIFE-STUDY OF JOB

MESSAGE THIRTY-EIGHT
AN ADDITIONAL MESSAGE

THE DIVINE DISPENSING OF THE DIVINE ECONOMY
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:51 PM   #114
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Yes, basically he starts this message saying I want to give a further word that has nothing to do with Job. Can you imagine that people actually tolerated this?...
By comparison if you are Lee-esgue ... yer only maybe 1% of 1% Lee-esgue ... It's all relative....
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:40 PM   #115
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By comparison if you are Lee-esgue ... yer only maybe 1% of 1% Lee-esgue ... It's all relative....
Does that mean that I am 99.9% Lee free?

Is that an apology for what is clearly a very ugly insult?

In our AA meetings we can share our testimonies of how we have gone 15 or 20 or even 25 years without imbibing any Lee.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:38 PM   #116
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Does that mean that I am 99.9% Lee free?

Is that an apology for what is clearly a very ugly insult?

In our AA meetings we can share our testimonies of how we have gone 15 or 20 or even 25 years without imbibing any Lee.
Yer perhaps Lee artificial sweetener .... maybe Lee-tevia ...

And that would be LA (Lee Anonymous) meetings ... "My name is Harold, and I'm a Lee-oholic ,,,"
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:40 PM   #117
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Yer perhaps Lee artificial sweetener .... maybe Lee-tevia ...

And that would be LA (Lee Anonymous) meetings ... "My name is Harold, and I'm a Lee-oholic ,,,"
You said I was a sweet brother! Did OBW see that! You made my day!
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:41 PM   #118
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I hope ya'll read that because I have been warned that Living Stream might go after me for copyright infringement. OBW I was just trying to be helpful to awareness and ZNP. I wasn't trying to make a point...yet.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:44 PM   #119
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Why are you posting this drivel, what is your point? Are you saying that this is truly an exposition of the book of Job that opens up this part of God's word to us? Or are you just asking to be torn limb from limb by the mockers and scorners?
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:48 PM   #120
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Why are you posting this drivel, what is your point? Are you saying that this is truly an exposition of the book of Job that opens up this part of God's word to us? Or are you just asking to be torn limb from limb by the mockers and scorners?
For user friendly reference.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:01 PM   #121
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Take it easy ZNP. Isn't this the outline & excerpts of the Life-Study of Job that Zeek posted? If you don't want to discuss it then step aside and let others take a shot at it.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:14 PM   #122
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Why are you posting this drivel, what is your point? Are you saying that this is truly an exposition of the book of Job that opens up this part of God's word to us? Or are you just asking to be torn limb from limb by the mockers and scorners?
He's a Leeite!

Grab a limb. Lets tear ...
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:24 PM   #123
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Drivel ???

IMHO, Simply put, "In the fullness of time " our most gracious God has carried out HIS plan for us.

What's next?

The Judgement?

Surely this is in His plan, however, His will is being done in each of us according to our willingness.

Lord Jesus have mercy.
May the Whole world hear!

Don Jr.

P.S.
All this talk seems to be a bit religious to me.

Last edited by manna-man; 09-08-2011 at 04:29 PM. Reason: PB&J
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:26 PM   #124
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Zeek,

Can I ask some questions for the benefit of those still discussing?

Are you trying to figure out how Lee ties that particular LS message with the book of Job?
Or were you joining ZNP to pick on Lee's wandering in the field with the wild beasts while calling this particular message relevant to Job?
Or (again) is there something in this LS that you want someone to comment on (with or without reference to Job)?

If I were trying to respond, I would not know what was meant or what I should focus on.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:43 PM   #125
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Take it easy ZNP. Isn't this the outline & excerpts of the Life-Study of Job that Zeek posted? If you don't want to discuss it then step aside and let others take a shot at it.
I am taking it easy, I was just warning him of what would take place.
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:11 PM   #126
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I am taking it easy, I was just warning him of what would take place.
Well I don't know if cutting and pasting large amounts of LSM online material is very wise. They claim all copyrights and all rights reserved for any use of their material, even personal use.

And those boogers have no compunction against suing anyone, brothers in the Lord or not. They'd sue Jesus himself ... or the apostle Paul .. for using their material....
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:18 PM   #127
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Well I don't know if cutting and pasting large amounts of LSM online material is very wise. They claim all copyrights and all rights reserved for any use of their material, even personal use.

And those boogers have no compunction against suing anyone, brothers in the Lord or not. They'd sue Jesus himself ... or the apostle Paul .. for using their material....
Very good point!
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:38 PM   #128
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Very good point!
But I failed to mention that they think their material is better than Jesus, or that of the apostle Paul ... in fact, that's the very nature of Lee's High Peaks ...
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:23 AM   #129
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Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?
Is it different when you do it?
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:26 AM   #130
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ZNP and awareness discussed the "question of balance" which history has wrestled with, vis-a-vis whether the formation of Israel balanced the loss during the holocaust. awareness faulted God for allowing the holocaust, while ZNP pointed to the nation of Israel which resulted. I added to the mix noting that diasporic Jews at heart cared most for their children's children's children, and most ashkenazi Jews saw the self-determination afforded by the Palestinian homeland worth the price. It is a well-known fact, that as a people, the real Jews put their children first before themselves.
I'm sure there are a few other groups of which this could be said, Catholics come to mind...


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On a personal note, about the only genre of music that I ever really loved was the british progressive rock of the late '60s early '70s, of which the Moody Blues excelled.
Glad to see I've a fellow Pink Floyd fan on the board.
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:53 AM   #131
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Is it different when you do it?
Sure, in the example with LSM and LRC stifling all other voices other than WL I point out the error in this. Everyone has their own opinions, including WL. If you stifle all others you allow one opinion to become so dominant that it is similar to a harmonic frequency destroying a bridge.

In your example with Minoru Chen you were the one trying to stifle his opinion. No doubt, his opinion affected everyone within the four walls of the meeting hall, but that is true of hundreds of other opinions. Why does the meeting start at 10 and not 9:30? That is someone's opinion. Why is the meeting hall kept at 68 degrees and not 70? Why do we have 2 meetings on Sunday and not one longer meeting? Why can't we share from the book Lord of the Rings in the meetings? Why don't we sing more Led Zeppelin songs during the meeting?

It was these kind of opinions that caused the Anaheim faction to claim that TC was "fleshly" and excommunicate him. I took a public stance opposing that decision.

Lots and lots of opinions.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:10 PM   #132
rayliotta
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Posts: 602
Default Re: Lee and the book of Job

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
In your example with Minoru Chen you were the one trying to stifle his opinion. No doubt, his opinion affected everyone within the four walls of the meeting hall, but that is true of hundreds of other opinions. Why does the meeting start at 10 and not 9:30? That is someone's opinion. Why is the meeting hall kept at 68 degrees and not 70? Why do we have 2 meetings on Sunday and not one longer meeting? Why can't we share from the book Lord of the Rings in the meetings? Why don't we sing more Led Zeppelin songs during the meeting?
Well, if Minoru's statement had been intended to apply only "in the meetings", then I guess what you're saying would make sense.

Unfortunately, you're the only one who seems to understand him this way...
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