Member of the church in Jounieh Lebanon

[allinclusivechrist]

Praise the Lord saints .
Good to hear from all of you even I don't know anyone on this forum.
I believed in the Lord since the civil war in Lebanon .
I joined the LC after reading a book of brother Nee.
I have good fellowship with saints in the LC and outside them (some saints in Germany ).
You are welcome to visit us.

[awareness]

Thanks for inviting us. But where, bro allinclusivechrist? In Lebanon? what city?

To be complete your invite should include an address?

[UntoHim]

Harold,

allinclusivechrist clearly gave the city - Jounieh. Just google it like I did. Looks like a great place to live, right on the Mediterranean sea.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for inviting us. But where, bro allinclusivechrist? In Lebanon? what city?

To be complete your invite should include an address?

Dear Harold.

before querying on such specifics it might be well to remember the unrest, persecution and violence in some regions. Perhaps a PM might be more advised. (that's Private Message for the new readers).

Dear aic,

Welcome. Thanks for joining. I've been on this site for nearly 11 years now and it's been a great addition to my Christian journey. I find that if I respect others' ideas, then my posts also get considered respectfully. (that is of course the central teaching of Jesus Christ: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"). This is a great place to write out your thoughts - just remember that people won't always answer the way that you think they should! (thank you Lord).

I used to read Watchman Nee a lot, and was very impressed with: 1) his spirituality; 2) his common-sense and biblical ecclesiology. After 11 years on this forum, my appreciation has been balanced by caution. His spirituality was "mystical" or experience-driven, which while necessary, should always be in small careful doses. The initiate can get led astray easily by what seems to be ecstasy (or peace, or love) but which can dry up and run out. The lure then becomes to look at one's experiences, which are not always stable or trustworthy, and away from the written scripture, which is stable and trustworthy. And Nee's ecclesiology changed over time from "local independent assemblies" (local churches) to a centralised, command-and-control model (Jerusalem principle). In other words, the lust for power took him over, as it has many of God's servants.

May God bless your journey with peace and joy. Jesus surely is Lord. The testimony of those in Lebanon is known. I've increasingly become aware of the history of the Christian faith in that region, the so-called "Oriental Orthodox" churches (Maronites, Syrian Orthodox etc).

[allinclusivechrist]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for inviting us. But where, bro allinclusivechrist? In Lebanon? what city?

To be complete your invite should include an address?

My name and address:
Fadi Rizk
Beit Elchaar, Hadira street
Naddaf bld, Metn, lebanon.
Mobile:961 3864342
Home: 961 4540985

[aron]

aic,

I pray the Lord cover you and yours. Not all our readers have God's interests at heart. But there are those members here who put their personal information out, and that is certainly a wonderful thing, too, if the Lord Spirit leads you.

"Be as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove" ... we rejoice that you are led to post here. May the Lord bless your interactions, and grant you grace to receive the writings of others.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

My name and address:
Fadi Rizk
Beit Elchaar, Hadira street
Naddaf bld, Metn, lebanon.
Mobile:961 3864342
Home: 961 4540985

Is that where you meet with other local churcher's?

[allinclusivechrist]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is that where you meet with other local churcher's?

There is two lampstands in Lebanon.
One in Beirut and one in jounieh.
There is 2 saints in Beirut and around 10 in jounieh.
Usually we meet in our homes.

[aron]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

There is two lampstands in Lebanon.
One in Beirut and one in jounieh.
There is 2 saints in Beirut and around 10 in jounieh.
Usually we meet in our homes.

One of the interesting things of the "lampstand'' idea is that there once was a "proper lampstand" (one church per city) but that the "lampstand" got removed somehow, and then the Lord's Recovery "recovered the proper ground" and voila the lampstand is now back, in Lebanon or wherever.

This presupposes a loss, but I was never told how the loss occurred. Just that somehow the "lampstand" vanished from the earth. Then when Watchman Nee ''took the ground" in Shanghai in 1932, the "lampstand" was back. Now there are lampstands in this and that city.

Now, how do we know the lampstand was lost? Says who? And if so, in what manner and time?

We are sold the "degradation of the church" story without any details. I presume because there are none to offer. Or precious few. My own idea, growing of late, is that the church degradation was so enormous and thorough that various "recovery" and "restoration" groups can come along and sell us counterfeits. So we are still degraded, still illegitimate, but we think we are "proper" and "genuine" and can judge everyone else while escaping judgment ourselves. "And the last state of that person was worse than the first".

It's sort of like when you are in the desert, and some trickster gets you to think that you are in the Promised Land of Milk and Honey. So you sit down, and refuse to travel on, and berate anyone who thinks otherwise. You have "taken the ground" in the desert.

Let me try to be more specific: "to the angel of the church in Pergamos"... at that time (so the story goes) the city of Pergamos had a lampstand. A genuine, proper local church on the local ground. But at some point, it got removed. My question: when? Or Corinth. There was a church in Corinth. Paul wrote to them, a letter or two. Who's to say then that the church in Corinth lost their lampstand? I mean, there are Christians still meeting in Corinth, no? If they are not affiliated with the LSM then they are not on the "proper ground"? What arbitrary subjectivity to base one's judgment of others.

[awareness]

I guess "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," just isn't good enough.

[HERn]

Dear brother Fadi:

So good to hear from you. I feel very sorry for what has happened to your beautiful country with all the wars. You must be a very strong believer in our Lord to reveal your name. I honor your faith and boldness. What can we do to help our brothers and sisters in Christ in your country? I know there is an ancient church in your country, I hope all the believers love each other.

All the best to you sir,

HERn

[allinclusivechrist]

Originally Posted by HERn

Dear brother Fadi:

So good to hear from you. I feel very sorry for what has happened to your beautiful country with all the wars. You must be a very strong believer in our Lord to reveal your name. I honor your faith and boldness. What can we do to help our brothers and sisters in Christ in your country? I know there is an ancient church in your country, I hope all the believers love each other.

All the best to you sir,

HERn

Thank you brother.
Can I send you a private message.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I guess "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," just isn't good enough.

No, it seems that affiliation with a book publisher in Anaheim is required. The church in Corinth had a lampstand, once, according to the NT Acts and epistles. LSM never explained just how and why that lampstand disappeared. There are still believers meeting there 2,000 years later, yet supposedly no lampstand... why? Because the believers are not affiliated with LSM? Then it's clear what defines a lampstand for them - affiliation with an external ministry that publishes and sells materials to a them.

Instead of a clearly presented background, we get this generic, "the church became degraded" story. A whitewash, or in this case a greywash. Of course the church did arguably get corrupted, quite so - enough that it swallows Kiplingesque "Just So Stories" of its history. "Then God raised up Watchman Nee..."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Thank you brother.
Can I send you a private message.

Yes, I think I remember how to work the PM tool.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The church in Corinth had a lampstand, once, according to the NT Acts and epistles. LSM never explained just how and why that lampstand disappeared. There are still believers meeting there 2,000 years later, yet supposedly no lampstand... why?

I mean, who am I to come along and tell the Corinthian believers that they no longer have a lampstand? What kind of spirit is that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I mean, who am I to come along and tell the Corinthian believers that they no longer have a lampstand? What kind of spirit is that?

This always presented a dilemma to me. If Ephesus could have their lampstand removed because some (or all?) have lost their first love, then what about the rest of the churches, perhaps excluding Philadelphia? Look at how bad Pergamos and Thyatira were comparatively. Was their lampstand also in danger of being removed?

Then consider some of the LC's. They boasted that they alone were lampstands simply because they possessed the right name. Is that possible? Could the Lord, the Son of Man walking in their midst, overlook all manner of sin simply because your registered name in the phone book was "correct?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then consider some of the LC's. They boasted that they alone were lampstands simply because they possessed the right name.

I'm not sure they even win the "name game". Consider Corinth. The city is still there, and the Christian faith remains among its citizens. What happened to the lampstand?

The city of Corinth still exists today, although it is not located at the same site as the city in the days of the apostle Paul. It's downhill and closer to the isthmus and the Gulf of Corinth. It's a great experience
to walk the same streets as Paul in AD 51–to see the market where he preached. The Corinth of today is a medium sized city of 36,000. Its economic importance is less than it was. There is now a canal dug through the isthmus.

This is a marvel of modern engineering. It is up to 150 feet deep, through solid rock. The canal is fairly narrow, making it not particularly important to international shipping, which partially explains why Corinth is only a medium sized city.

John Oakes, PhD

And I'm not detracting from the "church in Jounieh Lebanon" because the question is, On what basis does one say a city does or doesn't have "a lampstand" there? And, what spirit gives the right to say that?

[allinclusivechrist]

Praise the Lord saints .

[aron]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the Lord saints .

Amen, praise the Lord.

Question: if you "take the lampstand" in a city on a certain location (e.g., Beirut "took the lampstand" in April 2014), shouldn't you know when the previous lampstand was removed? In Corinth, there is still a church there. What if they trace their origins to the apostles? How can you move in and "take the ground"?

Or Addis Abbaba? What if Christians have been meeting there continually since the Ethiopian Eunuch went home in Acts 8:26-40? He got baptised by Philip, which by all accounts was genuine, and Philip sent him on his way. No report of his going back to Jerusalem for "full time training". Nor any report of the lampstand leaving the place. So when did Addis Abbaba lose the lampstand? Why does LSM feel permission is granted to "take the ground there"? It doesn't really make sense to me, if you put a lampstand somewhere, if another has already been in place. You assume it is not, but why?

[aron]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

There is two lampstands in Lebanon..

My previous post (#19) probably didn't do the subject well as I used the term "take the lampstand". I think the term is rather "take the ground", i.e. for the Lord and his Church.

But what I was trying to address was the idea of a "lampstand" or local expression of the Church. When one delineates a lampstand, one perforce delineates what is not, and in this case that's all but one's own group... my question was to ask, how one does that? What criteria are used? It seems to me that one's inclusionary criteria will include others, and one's exclusionary criteria will exclude oneself.

For example, how do we know there was no lampstand in Ethiopia before the LSM arrived? There were believers there since the book of Acts was written. At what time therefore did the lampstand get removed, until the LSM re-established it?

Or Geneva and Bern, which had one church per city, strictly enforced I might add, under Calvin's auspices - if that's not a "proper lampstand" then what is? Especially since Calvin is listed as a "minister of the age" in LSM lore. At what point then did Geneva and Bern lose the lampstand? Or the Puritans in New England for that matter - they never tolerated any but one church per city. If this wasn't a lampstand then why not?

Ultimately it seems to be, when we do it, it's a lampstand but with anyone else it's not. There are then two sets of criteria, one used for our group and one for everyone else.

If "degradation" is the exclusionary criteria, then what of Daystar, Phosphorus, and Overseas Christian Stewards? What of "Phillip Lee is the Office"? If operational purity is one's defining characteristic, then how can one stand? Witness Lee wanted others to overlook his "messy kitchen", so why couldn't he overlook the rest? One must be consistent with applied criteria, else one's subjective experiences become untethered from objective reality and become absurdist fantasies.