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Old 01-14-2020, 06:10 AM   #1
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Default A Frustrated Mother

I’m going to start this off with a story of an event that just happened last week with my 14-year-old son. I must have pulled out onto a two lane road in a way that made a driver very unhappy, and as he whipped around me he honked his horn, threw up his arms, flipped us off and yelled obscenities. He was closest to my son who watched him. I felt horrible that my son had to see this display. And as we discussed it he said “it’s OK I’m not bothered but, If it was a highschooler or younger person it would’ve made more sense. But this person was an adult.” My point is—this was a grown man acting like a child not caring who his audience was as he was being really nasty and unkind. His middle finger, dirty looks, his yelling obscenities was all towards my son sitting the closest to him as he drove by. This anger had no filter, no thought, and it damaged my son in a way this person cannot take back.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!
I, as a mother of three boys, actually, three teenage men, is completely disappointed in each and everyone of you speaking poorly of your brothers and sisters.

Can you imagine how the Lord must feel to witness His children dragging one another through the mud as so many of you have? It’s like you get off on your mean spiritedness towards one another! It’s disgusting. I’m speaking as a mother and you are all my children hurting one another. I love my kids, and yes, I have been utterly disappointed, even disgusted in their behavior at times! But I don’t go on the internet and tell the world about it! Nope, not even Facebook.

To all the parents who have had arguing children and have listen to them yelling “he said this, she said that, I am right he is wrong?” Complaining, arguing, nagging?!??? Have you ever thrown up your hands and in exasperation told them all to “GO TO YOUR ROOM, I don’t care who is right!!” you are done with them, you don’t care who is right, you just want them to be nice to each other!!??!! This entire discussion, bagging on one other is ridiculous.

Again, can you imagine your kids growing up and not agreeing with one another and then going on the Internet and airing everything out about your family hitting below the belt, being nasty and unkind to one another, for all the world to see? I’m sure you would be just beaming with pride. Ugh.

Put yourself in the Lords position looking at his beloved children, whom he died for, doing this to one another?

Stop already.

Cut it out acting like little children. Love one another fiercely, pray for one another. I tell you, reading through these threads, there is no life. Just death. Just pointing fingers, digging to find fault. There is arrogance, ugly satisfaction of finding faults in one another.

What a dishonor to our God, our Father.

The only reason why I’m commenting, is for my great love to you all. I have brothers and sisters that exercise their faith in denominations, as Catholics, Baptist’s, non denominational mega church, and small church goers, and the list goes on. Even if they say things that I may not agree with I would never drag them through the mud, I would never hurt them so intentionally and so unkindly as you are, believers in Christ, are doing.

I love you enough to say please stop. Before you meet the Lord, whenever that may be-you must be right with God and man.

I repeat: you must be right with God and man before you meet the Lord.

I exhort you all with any opinions with any poor speaking with any ugliness in your heart to any of God’s children your brothers and sisters, to take it before the Lord, and the Lord only. If anyone is wrong and in their speaking of the Lord, He will take care of it, the Lord says vengeance is mine. (Romans 12:19)

Bible 101: 1) LOVE ONE ANOTHER
2. 1 John 4:20-21
3. 2 Corinthians 8:21

There have been people hurt by every religion, every church, every religious organization since the beginning of time. Seriously, this isn’t front page news. The enemy hates us and will use us all. The LC is no exception. The fact is :
We are ALL fallen, and saved by grace, God loves all men and desires them to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. (1Timothy 2:4) I understand some think they are doing the Lords work by revealing truth, but the Lord says we don’t need anyone to teach us that we will know by the anointing. (1 John 2:27) Remain in a proper spirit and heart towards the Lord by not coming here to complain about anyone or anything. Come forward to build one another up, not break anyone down. (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

May the Lord touch us so deeply concerning this website, touch us concerning our heart towards one another. Lord Jesus, have mercy on us and lead us to have a the deepest love towards one another. While in ourselves we are unable to truly love and forgive, but PRAISE THE LORD, IN CHRIST ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!

With more love than you know,
Your sister in Christ
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:59 AM   #2
UntoHim
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I have brothers and sisters that exercise their faith in denominations, as Catholics, Baptist’s, non denominational mega church, and small church goers, and the list goes on. Even if they say things that I may not agree with I would never drag them through the mud, I would never hurt them so intentionally and so unkindly as you are, believers in Christ, are doing.
Thank you A Frustrated Mother for having the courage and concern to come and post here on our open forum. Even though you have posted some sharp words for us, I commend you for heart and fortitude, and most of all for caring enough to actually come and engage in dialogue. Very few current Local Church members have taken advantage of this venue.

I have posted the above quote because this is the part of your post that probably caught my attention the most. So I'm assuming that you have at least some communication and fellowship with Christians outside of the Local Church? Has something changed? I was in the Local Church for 20+ years and we were forbidden to have any significant, meaningful fellowship with anyone in "Poor, Poor Christianity". Have the Blended Brothers loosened up on this prohibition? If so, we would'd know from the resent speakings coming from Ron Kangas and others. They are still dragging their brothers and sisters in Christ through the mud, just has they have been for more than a half-century. Ron Kangas even drags his own wife through the mud!

Recently, a new LSM website called "Shepherding Words" has appeared. This site is FILLED with nothing but bitter speaking and lies against many former members. As you are probably aware, there has been a lot of exposing of abuse in the Local Churches over the years - even abuse of sisters at the hands of elders and other leaders. For the most part, these abuses have been covered up, and the victims denied any kind of justice. Many times the perpetrator was allowed to continue on, in some cases continue on as an elder or leader.

I myself was never abused in the Local Church. Most of my experiences were positive. However, in the 20+ years since leaving the movement, I have found out that many dear brothers and sisters have suffered untold abuse - spiritual, psychological and even sexual. God can not, God will not bless any Christian group where there is abuse, especially by the leadership.

You are aware of the stagnant growth in the Local Church here in America? You are aware that more than half of the 2nd generation of LC kinds end up leaving as soon as they can? You are aware of the fact that the vast majority of the FTT attendees are Asians imported from Taiwan and other Asian places? You are aware that the vast majority of Local Churches here in America are composed of older brothers and sisters (hangers-on from back the glory days) and the rest are Asians imported from the Far East? Very few Local Churches have any significant increase from the non-Asian American communities in which they claim to be a "local church".

Your post is touching. Your post is heartfelt. Your post is courageous. Your post is also extremely short-sighted and out of touch with reality.

-
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:46 AM   #3
aron
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
ENOUGH ALREADY!!
I, as a mother of three boys, actually, three teenage men, is completely disappointed in each and everyone of you speaking poorly of your brothers and sisters.
Dear Frustrated Mother,

Have you ever sat in a meeting in the LC and heard others "speaking poorly" of their brothers and sisters in faith? I used to, all the time. I heard Witness Lee mocking "poor, poor Christianity" -- "too poor". If so, did you then stand up and say how completely disappointed you were? And did you ever hear anyone, EVER, stand up and say how disappointed they were with the kind of slanderous, cursing/speaking they were hearing?

I never heard anyone protest. Not once. I went to meeting after training after conference, and heard judgment galore. When the LC authority was speaking it was called "rebuking" or "correcting" or "perfecting". Even when it was really just slander and shaming. I saw, heard, experienced, insinuation, exposing, intimidation, implied (and open) threats, and bogus judgments.

But if anyone else tried to "critique" (as in their magazine Affirmation and Critique), it was called "being negative, an "attack", or "rebellion", and so forth. You also know the buzzwords, I imagine, so I don't have to repeat them all. And they would come from the LC dais in an unending stream. You remember Witness Lee, speaking to us, right? I do. I was there. "Evil", "satanic", "devilish", "dark", "twisted" and so forth. Those were all words he used to characterize his fellow Christians, for, you know, having clergy, having names, Christmas Trees, and so forth.

And when the LSM will finally admit, "We were wrong", then people will probably stop pointing out their many glaring flaws, both in thought and in action, and inaction. Until then, I suppose people will keep speaking up. Sorry if that bothers you so much. Really, I'm sorry. But it's the truth. And it may hurt now, but it's the salve of correction. Repentance leads to salvation.

Now, if it's HOW people are speaking, yes. Thanks for the correction, and I'll try to do better. We all can, really. But the point is still there, and it needs to be made, repeatedly and loudly, until LSM leadership FINALLY gets it. Jesus said, "if they don't listen to you, then shout it from the house-tops". The historical record is very clear -- how many witnesses used Matthew 18 principles to come to Witness Lee with concerns. Serious concerns. People were getting hurt. The witnesses were all brushed off. Witness Lee was untouchable. So here we are.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I’m going to start this off with a story of an event that just happened last week with my 14-year-old son. I must have pulled out onto a two lane road in a way that made a driver very unhappy, and as he whipped around me he honked his horn, threw up his arms, flipped us off and yelled obscenities. He was closest to my son who watched him. I felt horrible that my son had to see this display. And as we discussed it he said “it’s OK I’m not bothered but, If it was a highschooler or younger person it would’ve made more sense. But this person was an adult.” My point is—this was a grown man acting like a child not caring who his audience was as he was being really nasty and unkind. His middle finger, dirty looks, his yelling obscenities was all towards my son sitting the closest to him as he drove by. This anger had no filter, no thought, and it damaged my son in a way this person cannot take back.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!
I, as a mother of three boys, actually, three teenage men, is completely disappointed in each and everyone of you speaking poorly of your brothers and sisters.
We on here do need correction from time to time in this respect I think. And I have seen others here ask forgiveness for how they were communicating (me included). Let me say that I have had a fairly similar observation as you, which I have brought up before.

While the Lord took me out of the LC, I have not had the degree of negative experience that some have had while there, for various reasons (e.g., the locality I was in, the time, etc.). So, to me, yes it sometimes looks like nonstop Lee and LC bashing just cuz that's what we do here. Though my objections are not always received the way I'd hoped, there is still usually good discussion around things, so I've continued posting here. (I'm always reminding people to not throw baby out with dirty bath water - though some see nothing worthy of keeping . . .)

And Aron brings up a good point about the "Christianity bashing" that most of us experienced in the LC. This teaching became a hindrance in me, in having fellowship with dear ones in other places. But the Lord has worked in me and has gotten me largely past that now (though it took perhaps 25 years), so that I can have good fellowship with most any believer, no matter their outward practice (as Lee might say, "disregarding the non-essentials of the faith"). This is not a tit for tat sort of thing I bring up, but rather it illustrates that we all have the divisive flesh to contend with. Just like the driver screaming obscenities - he was fully in his flesh (whether he was perhaps even a believer, I don't know). The Lord has left us with the flesh and given us a reborn spirit, so we always have a choice in this life.

So sister, please forgive us if we appear to exhibit the flesh and not Christ!

Any-a-ways, that's just my buck-two-ninety-eight, for what it's worth . . .
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Unregistered mother,

Like the others have said, I’ll start out by thanking you for what I’ll take as a reminder concerning civility and non-slanderous speech. In what is mostly currently an echo chamber, it is easy to let the tone of dissatisfaction reach a peak.

However.

There is a big difference between airing out family issues versus airing out church issues. Namely, the Bible does not say to air out family issues. But it does say to air out church issues.

Yes, Jesus’s message was love. But He wasn’t always a sweet purple dinosaur named Barney swaying back and forth singing about it. Jesus had steel. Do you recall what He called the Pharisees in Matthew 23?

Hypocrites, children of hell, blind guides, blind fools, blind men, dirty on the inside, whitewashed tombs, full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean, full of hypocrisy and wickedness, snakes, brood of vipers, condemned to hell.

Would you tell Jesus “ENOUGH”?

No. Because He is taking to account people who are spiritually abusing His people. He is taking to account the religious hypocrites who put burdens and weights and oppression and laws and rules and regulations upon His people that God never put there Himself. This is what is called spiritual abuse.

And this is what the brothers in the local churches do to all God’s children who are under their speaking.

This forum is an attempt to follow Jesus’s pattern in calling out darkness and hypocrisy. Slander is not slander if it is true.

The Bible doesn’t say “if there is a problem in the church then that is just the sense of death and you should focus on life.”

Ephesians 5:11 says, “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, BUT RATHER EXPOSE THEM.”

Matthew 18 says if there is a problem, talk to that person. If that doesn’t work, then bring a few more. If that doesn’t work, THEN TELL IT TO THE CHURCH.

Paul reprimanded Peter to his face for living in a way unworthy of the gospel.

The Bereans examined the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was in line with the word.

While we may be using people’s names, what we are really focusing on are the twisted teachings and practices in the local church, and the spirit behind them. I believe most on this forum have a heart of love, or at least strive to, towards the people in the local church. What we do not have a heart of love for is darkness.

Forgiveness and accountability for inflicting damage are two different things.

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Old 01-14-2020, 01:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Unregistered,

It is a common misconception that ex-LC members are just out to argue and drag others through the mud. That was my belief for a long time, and in fact, that is exactly what they want you to believe.

Among all those who have left the LC, some left in anger, some left because they realized it wasn't a fit, some were kicked out, some would have been kicked out had they not left. There is no demographic that would fit all ex-LC members. The commonality, however, are the various things that many people have realized about the LC. Some of those things are very serious matters, and in many cases there has been the need for people to speak out, to stand up for themselves and to warn others.

Below is a link to a brand new video that analyzes one of Ron Kangas' rants. The way that Ron spoke in that message is not the way I would expect a grown adult to speak. And the reason I mention this is that these types of things are exactly what so many people are here speaking out about. Some people invested decades of their lives in the LC only to find out that all the things the LC supposedly "had better" were even more a problem in the LC than they were elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRSqGyPW5pA
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Frustrated Mother,

Those of us who post on this website have also said “ENOUGH”!

If there is another way to stop the abusive behavior being perpetrated on God’s people at the hands of the Local Church, please let us know. If there is another way to counter the overbearing ministry, the unscriptural teachings, controlling and flat out rude behavior, please let us know.We all have a story with problems too long to list

It seems your message to us is “everybody has problems” so “sit down and shut up”...we’ve heard that before. We’ve even tried to do it. The more we sat down and shut up, the worse it became. We could no longer offend our conscience. We couldn’t sing “I’m so happy in this lovely place” anymore. We had ENOUGH.

We turned to our spirit (like we were told). We called “Oh Lord Jesus” over and over and over. We said all the “amen’s” we could possibly say. We prayed as you suggested. We pray read...oh my...did we ever pray read... . We tried all the prayers, the turn the other cheeks, the just suck it up sermons from those who defended the abuse as you seem to be doing. We got in trouble anyway. Finally we said “ENOUGH”. “Stop already!”

We’ve been lectured by the best.

We could no longer tolerate the meanspirited words toward us (negative, opposers, etc.). We were disgusted. I suppose I could be considered an “opposer”. I did oppose the way I was treated by the elders. Many of us reached the end of our road and discovered that God did not require us to suffer at the hands of our brothers and sisters. God did not require us to suck it up. God did not require us to sit down and shut up. So we walked away. We had had ENOUGH.

Further, we have found this website a refuge from those of you who speak so poorly about those of us who have had ENOUGH. You’re not the first. I’m sure you won’t be the last. Our problem is, “ENOUGH is ENOUGH”. We can’t hear you all any more. We can’t hear you and you can’t hear us. You don’t even want to hear what we have to say. Your minister teaches you not to listen. What we hear from you is “we didn’t do anything wrong...it’s all your fault...why don’t you just shut up and turn to your spirit?” Until your behavior changes toward Christians who don’t agree with you, we can’t hear you.

This website is full of testimonies of heartbreak, anger, frustration and so much pain, from so many who could not believe they deserved to be treated so poorly, and that this is not the God we love and serve. Many need help and this website provides help to so many.

You should read what you wrote to us—your original post, read it to Ron Kangas. Read it to Benson Phillips. Heck, read it to yourself. All of you are as accountable as all of us. So let’s level the playing field. Let’s stop the finger pointing. Let’s sit down together and LISTEN to one another. Can we do that? After we listen to one another, we should listen to Him. I realize you’re taught not to listen to anything you can possibly perceive as “negative”. As long as you hold to that unscriptural standard, we remain at an empasse. And whose fault is that? The devil.

Nell

Last edited by Nell; 01-14-2020 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Frustrated mother,

From one mom of three to another, how far do you take your see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil stand? Do you pat your kids on the back and support them with your silence if they follow after some other destructive cult like scientology, nxivm, or jehovah's witnesses? Because you must know this is what you are now endorsing to your young men. You do know the Local Church ticks all the same boxes as many other damaging cults? All you have to do is look up what a cult is....what its' behaviors are, and what the motives and end product are. The BITE Model is an excellent place to start. I lovingly suggest you ask the Lord Jesus to lift the veil from your eyes, and research it. God bless you, sister.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: A Frustrated Mother

Dear ‘frustrated mother’.

I would like to respond to your post in order to clear up a few things for you. First of all, a male driver on some arbitrary road somewhere in the world, misbehaving and using profanities, whom you have never seen before or since, has no connection whatsoever with this website. No-one here is in any way responsible or connected to this man or his behaviour. Neither has anyone on this forum used profanities, raw aggression, OR the ‘naughty finger’ to express themselves. Passing responsibility from a completely unconnected incident, unsettling, unfortunate and unpleasant as it certainly was, makes no sense.

It seems an example of ‘Local Church Logic’; a passing of responsibility between unconnected events that may only seem connected to persons who lack critical thinking skills, or the ability to think for themselves. I suggest next time you take the number plate and report this driver to the police, like everyone else. Don’t blame an internet forum for it!

Secondly, you declare that you love the ‘misguided’ individuals who post here, yet you can’t hear them. You only hear nastiness and malice, not the concerns, the hurts, the hearts of those posting. Love listens to perceive the heart. Look at these replies so far to your post. They express a sense of grace, humility and sincerity. Quick to concede if their attitude is sometimes too harsh, without compromising, clearly yet respectfully, what their position is and why they feel called to call out the LC system.

Thirdly. I own my own sarcastic tone that has popped up on a couple of occasions in my posts. I am sorry for giving licence to that. Please don’t attribute that weakness of character to anyone else here.

Lastly, I am personally convicted by Proverbs 24, 11-12: Deliver those who are drawn towards death, and hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, ‘surely we did not know this,’ Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

There is a responsibility that comes FROM God to speak out, for everybody's sakes, especially those who lead in the ‘Lords Recovery Movement’ who are responsible for perpetuating error and control. I don’t think it can be any clearer than that. The posts ahead of this one have explained it all very respectfully, humbly and well.
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Old 02-03-2020, 03:24 PM   #10
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Dear 'Frustrated Mother'

Where are you? You made quite an effort to deliver a message, but you have not persevered to dialogue with the forum members who responded to you.
You seem to have....evaporated?

At the end of your one and only post you have written...'with more love than you know' as your last words. So what is the test of love? I'm going to evaluate your claim to 'love' the forum members, alongside the best place I know to evaluate anything, the bible: 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

love prefers others, vs 5. This has to include listening to others, in a committed way. And then to respond humbly and openly.

Love perseveres, vs 7. That means you stay the course, not drop judgement then disappear. You respond to the responses to your post, and keep responding, persevering until we get somewhere together.

This leaves the impression that you just wanted to achieve the goal of controlling 'us' with your loosely applied analogy of a driving incident, then disappear- not being accountable for your words nor addressing the response.

This is 'Local Church Discussions',a place to dialogue, discuss, listen and hear, respond, and potentially adjust ones view point. To 'drop and run' doesn't honour the baseline of a discussion forum. The 'love' you claim appears conditional by the lack of continuation on your part.

Is that the impression you want to leave with us? it works to reinforce our impressions rather than to change them, and your purpose of posting backfires on you. I'm sure that's not what you wanted. Regards to you anyway.
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