My Views and Stance on The Recovery

[Truth]

Hi All,

I've been around this forum for awhile, but never made any formal introductions. So here I go. I won't be able to talk about my history and my views all in one sitting, so it will take a few rounds.

First of all, I want to stay anonymous for reasons that will be apparent later. Unfortunately, this means my story will not be as detailed as I would like it to be. However my purpose in writing is not to tell you my history (that is just to provide some background), it is to tell you all currently where I stand with regards to the "The Lord's Recovery" (which you may or may not agree with).

I was born in the far East to parents who were already in the church life. I won't even tell you whether I am a brother or a sister. It will help readers to be more neutral when reading my story and thoughts about The Recovery. Our family moved to the mid-west area when I was still quite young. So for all of my childhood up until I attended the FTTA, I grew up under the ministry of Titus Chu and the mid-west full-time leading brothers. I was positive and absolute towards both LSM and Titus. When I graduated from the training, I served full-time a few years before going back to work. I did not experience the heat of the turmoil in the Great Lakes area, because at the time I had already moved away. However, I had close friends who were in it. Not too long ago, I stumbled onto this forum and read some of the scandal involving Witness Lee, and recently Watchman Nee. I was horrified and sad, but not surprised. This answered my long-time question as why the Recovery has been fruitless for so many years, even though our old members always raved about how wonderful the church life was in the 60's and 70's.

Today, I am still a member of the local churches, even though I disagree with The Recovery system and some of the teachings of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. I am not a rank-and-file member deeply involved with the activities of LSM, however I am moderately involved with activities in my locality. I love the brothers and sisters here even though some of them have been in the church life for over 20 years. As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently. For now, I am staying here because the Lord hasn't yet led me to go anywhere else. I enjoy the fellowship with the saints here. However, I will only speak from the Bible and Lee/Nee's ministry only if I find it beneficial. I refuse to be a parrot, repeating senseless words of a man whom many believe to be the minister of the age. I don't see the Recovery as the only true church. I don't see Nee and Lee as the Minister of the Age. However, I do see the LSM churches as one of the many churches out there in Christianity with many problems. In fact, I think The Recovery going down that route. They have taken many actions to be accepted by mainstream Christianity. I also regard Nee and Lee as one of the *many* preachers out there with their own set of problems. No church is perfect and no minister is perfect. I am not making excuse for anyone, but I don't believe the talk about this church being evil and that we need to leave it. If one day the Lord leads me to leave and join another group, I will without questions.

For now, I am content here by the Lord's mercy and arrangement. Because what I believe in a kind of middle ground (ie. I am not for LSM churches, neither am I against it), I face all kinds of challenges. But the Lord has been merciful to supply me with His strength. I will end here for now. Feel free to ask questions, confirm and agree, or disagree and debate. After all, that is what this forum is for.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently. For now, I am staying here because the Lord hasn't yet led me to go anywhere else. I enjoy the fellowship with the saints here. However, I will only speak from the Bible and Lee/Nee's ministry only if I find it beneficial. I refuse to be a parrot, repeating senseless words of a man whom many believe to be the minister of the age.

Amen! I can relate to what you're saying. The local churches was the enviornment I was raised in. Until college I didn't even know any Christians outside the local church system. I love all the brothers and sisters. Even those I disagree with.
In regard to the ministry, in particular the HWFMR, there was very little beneficial to daily living. The Bible on the other hand, there are many chapters and passages that carries into my daily life.
The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to some degree I liked, but in LSM/LC practices, I did not see their ministry being exhibited.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to some degree I liked, but in LSM/LC practices, I did not see their ministry being exhibited.

It is unfortunately that they don't practice that they preach. One of my favorite books was The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. It is too bad that book has been completed skipped over in their practice. Whenever this book is cited, it is mentioned in hypocrisy. They say their churches are based on Christ alone, but it is actually based on Nee's and Lee's ministry. This is just one of the many untruthful practices.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

It is unfortunately that they don't practice that they preach. One of my favorite books was The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. It is too bad that book has been completed skipped over in their practice. Whenever this book is cited, it is mentioned in hypocrisy. They say their churches are based on Christ alone, but it is actually based on Nee's and Lee's ministry. This is just one of the many untruthful practices.

Teachings by Lee in the book The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life was simply a ruse to disarm us and entrap us in the program. Messages were given in 1971, long before Stream Publishers became LSM, and began dominating all the LC's. You are right about the hypocrisy surrounding this book, as it exposes the "bait and switch" policies which so characterize LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently.

It is a great struggle, which found to be an impossibility.

One day I began to think of the ramifications of "love the people but not the system." What did this really mean in practice? Since I had been taught to judge all things Christian with respect to the greater body of Christ, commonly referred to as "Christianity," it was well nigh impossible to separate the Christian from the "system."

Eventually I came to realize that this would be something like me saying "I love my wife, but ... I hate the way she thinks, the things she loves, the way she talks, the way she dresses, the way she cooks, the way she decorates, etc. etc."

At that point it sounded pretty stupid to me. It is better to practice the time-honored saying of "love the sinner, but hate the sin."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is a great struggle, which found to be an impossibility.

One day I began to think of the ramifications of "love the people but not the system." What did this really mean in practice? Since I had been taught to judge all things Christian with respect to the greater body of Christ, commonly referred to as "Christianity," it was well nigh impossible to separate the Christian from the "system."

Eventually I came to realize that this would be something like me saying "I love my wife, but ... I hate the way she thinks, the things she loves, the way she talks, the way she dresses, the way she cooks, the way she decorates, etc. etc."

At that point it sounded pretty stupid to me. It is better to practice the time-honored saying of "love the sinner, but hate the sin."

I would argue that we are in a constant struggle between the desire and command to love our neighbor and hate the sin that not only captures them, but sometimes hangs on with us. In a very real way, there is a need to love the sinner while hating the sin. And to the extent that there is something truly wrong with some belief, sect, etc., we surely are in the same kind of position.

(This is not pointed at anyone in particular. I think I point it at myself as much as anyone. I continue to find myself rating things in my assembly of choice according to a yardstick created in the fires of spiritual error by Lee and Nee.)

But Lee didn't really ask us to love the sinner and hate sin. He was asking and teaching us to hate every position that was in any way different from those he taught — in effect calling it all sin — and then suggesting that we love those caught in that "sin." It creates a rift because we are not dealing with them as believers on equal footing in grace, but as sinners hanging on by a thread of grace that we only barely acknowledge (and they only barely have).

Therein is the problem. The "Speciality" part of the book redefines the core of the faith to include the doctrine of dirt. It has added to the revelation and created something impure. But like the words from "Late Lament," impure becomes pure, and assemblies of the larger church universal are denigrated to be daughters of a whore.

I know I sound like a broken record on this, but until we see the mainstream of Christianity as the norm (and the proper norm at that) and the LRC as the anomaly that needs a serious course correction, we are still caught in its error. As long as we continue to view Christianity, even to a lesser degree, as the problem that Lee taught us to think of it as, we are mired in the pigpen of LRC-think. We may despise the LSM and the BBs for their unrighteousness related to Daystar, PL, John I, Bill M, etc., but we are ready purchasers of the doctrinal filth that they sell like magic elixirs from the days of the travelling salesmen.

If there is an assembly that approaches the true label of "Babylon the Great" or even one of her daughters (and I do not say that any actually do), it is not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ, charismatics, etc. . . . It is the LRC. They more than any other exemplify the position of proud yet bankrupt. All of the discussions of the problems with their young show it to be true. It would appear that their problem rates among the young are not just on par with other Christian groups. It is worse. They create extremes — either foam-at-the-mouth zealots or failures. It would be easy to blame each set of parents. But there is a common denominator in it and it isn't the people. It is the system they have hitched their wagon to. It rides a fine line between thoughts of superiority and of despair. There is no "normal Christian life." It is very abnormal.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

...until we see the mainstream of Christianity as the norm (and the proper norm at that) and the LRC as the anomaly that needs a serious course correction, we are still caught in its error. As long as we continue to view Christianity, even to a lesser degree, as the problem that Lee taught us to think of it as, we are mired in the pigpen of LRC-think...

If there is an assembly that approaches the true label of "Babylon the Great" or even one of her daughters (and I do not say that any actually do), it is not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ, charismatics, etc. . . . It is the LRC. They more than any other exemplify the position of proud yet bankrupt. ...there is a common denominator in it and it isn't the people. It is the system they have hitched their wagon to. It rides a fine line between thoughts of superiority and of despair. There is no "normal Christian life." It is very abnormal.

To this I'd add the comments of Jesus, to "love those who don't love you in return." He said, "If you only bless those who bless you, where then is your reward?" In this I find Christianity to be quite normal, because it is full of people who are caught in all sorts of error! And so, dear readers, am I! This is not to say, "Let us sin that grace may abound" -- no. But I acknowledge my many failures and lacks before God, remember that Jesus died to save sinners, of whom I am foremost, and know that these "degraded" assemblies around me, full of error-saturated and superstitious believers, contain all sorts of opportunities for me to practice mercy. Because Jesus clearly taught that if you show mercy to others, then God will show mercy to you! So what an opportunity, here, for me to obtain God's mercy!

Why search in vain for "the proper ground" when there are sinners all around you, some of whom go to church? Stop despising them according to your man-made doctrines and humble yourself and join in the great parade of God's salvation in Jesus Christ. It took me years, post LRC, to rid myself of the "I'm better than you through my superior teachings" attitude, carefully disguised in Lee's terminology (think, 'reality', etc). The reality is that God loved us and sent His Son while we were yet sinners. Shouldn't this same sending reverberate in love through us toward all those around, not merely toward those whom we deem 'proper'? Why place arbitrary burdens on others which we know they cannot keep, thus excusing ourselves for our lack of charity?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Truth

I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently.

Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints even though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen. Some of you may not agree with this. I would do the same at work. In fact, I just left a job for the same reasons. There were too many concerns, but I didn't want to make too much noise or cause misunderstanding, so I left quietly and thanked everyone for their support over the years.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints event though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings.

I will start off by saying, I love the brothers and sisters in the local churches, but disagree with the non-scriptural practices the system endorses. Many brothers and sisters I know, many of whom I have known since the 70's, I am more familiar with than my own relatives.
Yes, it is a struggle to speak out against the system, you will be shown the door. For example in 1993 when I moved to Bellevue, Washington from Southern Cal. As soon as I heard the term "rebellious ones", within me there was a resonation there was no such rebellion. It was a farce to retain partiality. Had I objected and expressed my sense from within, I would have been asked to leave without question. The brothers can't handle the concept the ministry can err on any point.
If there's anything I harbor it's disgust of the hypocrisy. So-called quarantines. Calling facts-lies and passing lies as facts (see Isaiah 5:20).
I can understand what you're saying about HWFMR. There is value in the verses. Many times I have not seen value in the ministry unless it translates to daily life application.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Truth

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system.

Now that would be a great struggle.

I am generally hard-pressed to keep my mouth shut when I see things going wrong. Even if I managed to bite my tongue, it would be obvious that I was biting my tongue.

It's a good thing I don't have that struggle.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Truth

Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints event though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen. Some of you may not agree with this. I would do the same at work. In fact, I just left a job for the same reasons. There were too many concerns, but I didn't want to make too much noise or cause misunderstanding, so I left quietly and thanked everyone for their support over the years.

May our Precious Heavenly Father bless you abundantly Truth because you are a LIGHT shining in that dark place. You are a drink of Fresh, Living Water to the people there. You are there to remind them Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. You are pointing them to Christ. You are reading scriptures (verses) and it is the scriptures that give LIFE.

You are nursing the sick back to health. You may not nurse all of them but you are nursing those GOD has given you charge of. :-)

Pointing out the warts and blemishes they have will not give them hope to get well. Many (starting from the top) have already embraced their warts and blemishes as normal. They are like lepers hanging out together because they don't fit in anywhere else.

But Jesus did not run away from the lepers. He healed them with His Love and with His Word. The LORD has placed a hedge of protection around you so you can minister to them. Who will minister to them if people like yourself don't? You are being used mightily by Almighty God [El -SHADDAI]. Your reward awaits you and it will be great !

Should the time come when the Spirit of GOD releases you from your ministry to the people of God who are stuck in the LSM, you will know and HIS PEACE will envelop you guarding your heart and mind in Christ Jesus leading you to another pasture of sheep to take care of.

Several years ago I heard many Mormons were truly being saved and delivered from Mormonism. Yet some chose to remain within its' walls in order to reach those who were truly hungry for Life, Love and Truth but were afraid to leave their compound.

Once upon a time, the LC was a Light unto the world. The bible was our guide. The LORD JESUS was our Savior, Our Redeemer, our King of Kings, our Lord of lords, Our Life, Our Light, Our Fortress, our High Tower, our Strength in Whom we Trusted, until the people of the LC took their eyes off of HIM and fixed their eyes on Lee in particular.

Yet in spite of their warts and blemishes God still used Nee & Lee to gather HIS saints together.

We were ALL there and we loved it for a season.

I don't know what the 7 feasts of the LSM are but the 7 Feasts of the LORD are listed in Leviticus 23. They are
1) Passover,

2) the Feast of Unleavened Bread,

3) the Feast of FirstFruits,

4) the Feast of weeks (50 days after the 7th Sabbath) [Pentecost]

5) The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Ha Shannah)

6) The Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur)

7) The Feast of Tabernacles.

The first four feasts have been fullfilled. Jesus is our 1) Passover Lamb, 2) He was in the grave during the Feast of Unleavened bread, 3) He resurrected on the Feast of FirstFruits. and 4) The church (not the LSM mind you) was born on Pentecost 50 days after His Resurrection.


Many believers who are looking for the LORD JESUS to return for His Bride, (the BLOOD WASHED believers) think He may come on The Feast of Trumpets for 1 Thessalonians says He will descend with a Shout, the Voice of the Archangel and with the TRUMPET of God. The dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the air to meet JESUS in the clouds. I used to think this too [but now Me personally, thinks whatever day or night we hear the SHOUT, the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and the TRUMPET of GOD will be the real Feast of Trumpets.]

The Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles are for the Jews who have rejected Christ Jesus as their Messiah but will be saved by the Blood during the 7 yr Tribulation.

Anyway...I am sure the LSM has distorted the 7 Feasts of the LORD spoken of in Leviticus 23.

So carry on TRUTH. Don't ease up wearing the Full Armor of God. Keep the Helmet of Salvation on at all times for it protects your/our thoughts. The Breastplate of Righteousness protects our heart. The Shield we carry is our Faith in Christ Jesus, the Sword of the Spirit is the WORD of God & the Blood of the Lamb we fight the enemy with (Satan & his minions: the principalities & powers of the air, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and the spiritual wickedness in High Places. We are not warring against flesh and blood.

Oh...the belt around our waist is the Word of TRUTH and our feet wear shoes prepared for the gospel of Peace.

Thanks for sharing !

Shalom in Yeshua the Messiah. He is coming soon!

Carol g

[Truth]

Thank you for the kind encouragement, Countmeworthy. Positive posts like yours in this forum is much needed.

I don't really see myself as a shining light in a dark place. Spiritually, I struggle as everyone else. I guess the main difference is that I don't think The Recovery system is biblical, where most of the members may believe otherwise. However this belief is not core to us being Christians. What makes us brothers and sisters is that we believe the Son of God has come to die for us sins that we might have His eternal life. All other beliefs are non-essential. I'm not saying that they are not important, but they don't determine whether we are Christians. They shouldn't divide us. Whether we believe that Nee/Lee is the Minister of the Age or not is not an essential item of the faith. I just don't make that an issue in my day-to-day walk with the Lord and in my fellowship with the saints. I don't believe that Lee is the MOTA but I can still fellowship with those who do believe because this is not "The faith".

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Truth

Thank you for the kind encouragement, Countmeworthy. Positive posts like yours in this forum is much needed.

Your welcome Truth and thank You for your kind words. I really do try to encourage and 'build up' the saints in God's Love and God's Word -Jesus by His Spirit. Not just on this forum but in my every day business. I can't wait until my mind is totally renewed so that the Mind of Christ is manifested in me and I can hardly wait to get my new and perfected Glorious body. Oh. Come Quickly Lord Jesus! The Spirit and the Bride say "Come".

I don't really see myself as a shining light in a dark place. Spiritually, I struggle as everyone else.

First of all GOD sees YOU as a shining light in the LSM. (don't know if it was appropae for me to call it a dark place. I know there are lots of candles shining brightly in that system as there are in all denominations including the RCC.)

2ndly what makes us shine is not our perfection because none of us are! What makes us shine is the LIGHT of Christ reflecting out from us. As long as we are doing the Will of our Heavenly Father and His Word, as long as we are humbled by the Word Living and operating in us, as long as we acknowledge the power of the Cleansing Blood of the Lamb and are forever grateful, then we are a Light to the world and that includes the people in the LSM.

The more you speak of our Great Redeemer and Savior, Lord and King and all He is doing in us, through us and for us, people in the LSM will gravitate to the LIGHT shining and reflecting out from you. That Light is JESUS CHRIST of course. We are simply God's vessels and His ambassadors representing HIM.

Do you know why I and most of us that are washed in the Blood of the Lamb know the power of the Blood of Jesus? It is because we have fallen flat on our faces. Speaking for myself, when I have stumbled and fallen, the Holy Spirit reminds me and convicts me of my sin. After years and years of abiding in Christ, it doesn't take any time for me to repent and cleanse myself in the Precious Blood with a grateful heart. After that, I just move on and don't look back. I ask the Lord of course to help me not to repeat the same sin, but rather "RENEW MY MIND, Lord Jesus! Please! And Quickly too!"

I guess the main difference is that I don't think The Recovery system is biblical, where most of the members may believe otherwise.

Yeah. What I don't get is ...what happened to the 'indepth' study of the 7 churches of Revelation? How quickly they forgot the warnings! All 7 are the church going through different stages. All but 2 were rebuked. The churches that weren't rebuked are Smyrna (the suffering church) and Philadelphia. We all have to be careful we don't lose our first Love, (Ephesus) that we don't put idols before our God (Pergamos), that we don't tolerate Jezebel (Thyatira-the spirit of control & manipulation) who called herself a prophetess yet seduced her servants to commit fornication. We must be careful we don't become a Sardis that thinks it's alive but is actually spiritually dead. And last but not least, how we must be careful not to become lukewarm, neither hot or cold for our Lord as the church in Laodicia became.

You know what I love about the Lord's Words to Philadelphia that should be an encouragement to us all? He told her: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My Word, and hast not denied My Name...Because thou hast kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of tribulation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So you see Truth, that is what you are doing! You may have a little strength but you are keeping God's WORD and not denying the Name of Jesus. You are elevating Him above every name...above the name of Nee and Lee. And you are reminding the saints in the LSM that have ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying to the churches to fix their hearts on Jesus for one day and very soon I might add, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is LORD. KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Excellent Job Truth !! You keep ministering the Pure Word of God with Christ's Love, Patience and Compassion as His Spirit leads you. Your reward is great! And if the time comes He leads you out of the LSM, you will have the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding to leave.

Shalom and Blessings,
Carol G

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Truth

...I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity...The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen.

IMHO this is a good attitude to have and indicates you know how the LC system works. It seems you have friends there and enjoy their company and fellowship. Unfortunately many will not be your friends anymore if you speak out against the downside of the system they embrace. You will be branded a leper and warned against.

Like all churches the LC system has plus and minuses. If you are comfortable there and can effectively navigate your way around the minuses why expend the time and energy it takes to find another imperfect church to get involved in? Of course at some point in time the minuses may so outweigh the pluses that in good conscience you may have to leave. But you can cross that bridge if and when you come to it.

[Chris Fleming]

That's a great perspective to have. That's how I felt when I was there and would have kept going with that cautious attitude should I have remained.

Truth be told, while I had a re-awakening of sorts with the "church life" towards the end of my time there, the whole "loving everyone" thing while they were so openly arrogant, snobbish and elitist even towards their fellow members as getting VERY old.

I would have remained with them barring the Lord directing me to leave...but I see getting excommunicated as a gift.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I see getting excommunicated as a gift.

Me too ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

That's a great perspective to have. That's how I felt when I was there and would have kept going with that cautious attitude should I have remained.

Truth be told, while I had a re-awakening of sorts with the "church life" towards the end of my time there, the whole "loving everyone" thing while they were so openly arrogant, snobbish and elitist even towards their fellow members as getting VERY old.

I would have remained with them barring the Lord directing me to leave...but I see getting excommunicated as a gift.

I had many friends in the LC's, yet I also watched many depart over the years due to abuses by leaders taking the place of true shepherding care. I kept holding out thinking that improvement was just around the corner, only to be disappointed once again by false promises. Let me give you an example from 2004.

One day a full-timer Vern Yoder from the Chicago area visited us with his family on the Lord's day. He testified how much he had always loved our city, and was thinking about relocating here. Who's not going to be happy to hear that? Next time he came, he testified how the Lord was leading him to move here. Great! How can I help?

Then, soon afterwards, one Lord's Day morning Paul Neider from Cleveland visited us. During the prayer time before the meeting, he never indicated why he was here. Since I'm not a suspicious person, I thought nothing of it. All of a sudden after we broke bread, Paul announces that Titus Chu sent him to ask us to "labor with brother Vern." Now I'm not the brightest guy around, but even I know what these "coded" words mean -- Titus Chu just sent Vern Yoder to town, who is now in charge, and even the existing elders must submit to him. Soon after I learned that close to ten full-times families were leaving Chicago since their leaders Barker and Reetske just decided to side with LSM. Ten other churches perhaps just got "screwed" like us.

Once I learned about ole Vern's true colors, I knew it was time to depart. He brought sweeping changes to our little church, caring nothing about the needs or wants of the sheep. One time I addressed this with him, and he forcefully responded, "sometimes we need to shock the saints." Spoken like a true Titus-wannabe. One time I caught him lying in the meeting, and I challenged him on it, yet the elders said not a word.

I was gone but most of my friends stayed in the LC. The battles between Anaheim and Cleveland took center stage in all the meetings. The elders had to make sure the local LSM-faithful could not win a lawsuit and get the meeting hall. Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I had many friends in the LC's, yet I also watched many depart over the years due to abuses by leaders taking the place of true shepherding care. I kept holding out thinking that improvement was just around the corner, only to be disappointed once again by false promises. Let me give you an example from 2004.


Once I learned about ole Vern's true colors, I knew it was time to depart. One time I caught him lying in the meeting, and I challenged him on it, yet the elders said not a word.

I was gone but most of my friends stayed in the LC. The battles between Anaheim and Cleveland took center stage in all the meetings. The elders had to make sure the local LSM-faithful could not win a lawsuit and get the meeting hall. Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.

God will avenge and God will judge. We all know Judgement comes first to the house of God beginning with the leaders, the 'shepherds' and the shepherds. May it come soon. For now, how heartwrenching to hear of yet another disillusioned believer lose all hope for living and take his life. I have heard of many men/women and even young men/women in the LRC take their lives. How the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must grieve.

Blessings all..may we never give up Hope, Faith and Love.

Carol G

Originally Posted by Ohio

Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.

Wow.

Ohio, could you say more about this? Was the suicide related to the battles within the LC's?

In my former locality, there was also a suicide. This man had real psychological problems, and I don't think it's fair to blame the church for what he decided to do. But what I did notice was how the church swept the suicide under the rug. The next "leading brothers" meeting I went to, a few days later, he wasn't even talked about.

There's no way of knowing, but I did have the thought back then, "Maybe if this poor brother had been in a different church, he could have received more help." As it was, I doubt that he was ever encouraged to see a professional psychiatrist, or receive counseling (I don't know for sure). But our way of handling these kinds of problems was usually to think that increased spirituality was the answer.

I have read about other cases of suicides in the LC (I think Jane's book mentions at least one). Is this some kind of pattern? It's terrible to think about, but it should be addressed if this sort of thing goes on more often than we realized.

[Lisbon]

Many things in the Bible are somewhat ambiguous at least as to how they are understood. But one occurency toward the end of the Lord's life seems to me to be ever so simple. The apostles were argueing about who was or would be the greatest among them which is certainly plain old human nature. Upon hearing their fussing the Lord told them that that sort of things was the way the gentiles acted but it was not the way the apostles were to act. In fact their real leaders were going to be servants

Now I have never seen that much serving in all my seventy years and I certainly haven't seen much in the LC. I heard from a very responsible fellow that while he was in Taiwan back in the late 70's or early 80's WL fired all the elder elders. Of course he got rid of any leader in the 80's that gave him any problem with his son's problems. Then the BB's excomunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.

Many may well remember the full page advertisements in major news papers when WL died. Bondslave of Jesus Christ. It's difficult to find greater hypocricy than this.

Lisbin

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Then the BB's excomunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.

Don't forget about Taiwan and other portions of SE Asia where excommunications (aka quarantines) were levied.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Now I have never seen that much serving in all my seventy years and I certainly haven't seen much in the LC. I heard from a very responsible fellow that while he was in Taiwan back in the late 70's or early 80's WL fired all the elder elders. Of course he got rid of any leader in the 80's that gave him any problem with his son's problems. Then the BB's excommunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.
Many may well remember the full page advertisements in major news papers when WL died. Bondslave of Jesus Christ. It's difficult to find greater hypocrisy than this.

Lisbin

Dear brother Lisbon,

One of the things I did when I discovered the hypocrisy at LSM and left their "Recovery," was to separate, at least in my mind, the Local Church leaders from the many precious and loving saints which I had come to know over the years.

I never want to discredit all those wonderful times together in Christ that I had shared with other brothers and sisters. The Lord will preserve the remembrance of those times for eternity.

[Lisbon]

Somewhat commenting on Bearbears #58.
When I am perfectly sober and calm, I can readily agree with several posters who speak that all we can do is pray. Certainly our situation is no surprise to the Lord and in a sense He is not going to do much about it. Just think, the church is very near to being 2000 years and there has never been a protracted time of wonder. Remember Paul wrote to Timothy, "all Asia has deserted me." And John wrote to maybe th e same group not that much later with a verdict of trouble.

One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid. I know very few smart people so maybe that is the answer. RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC and look how he turned out. It may be hard for people to believe in God but it is not at all hard for me to believe in the devil. Over quite a long period of time we were very drugged. Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then. We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.

I get a double dose of something each Sunday and I continue to be dismayed when I hear the lchers reading WL so sweetly and uniformily. How can they do that? I really don't think there is any hope. The Bretheren still have a meeting in our city and even smaller groups than that. I like one of the posters who says "where do we go from here.? I am sure of one thing, I have no desire to be a crusader.

I'm sure I don't pray like I shoud but I do pray more than ever before in my life. Our children and our friends so need our prayers. I have little burden to pray for the LSM and in my area all the churches are solidly for LSM unless I am badly fooled.

Lord help us!

Lisbon

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid.

Read Animal Farm by George Orwell. That helped me understand the snare I was in. Didn't really give me direction for my life though. The only ONE Who can & does that for us is Jesus Christ. We seek Him with a pure heart and He will direct our hearts & minds.

RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC

I've heard that too but he has got to be the most boring speaker in the world!!! Someone in the LC used to send me CD messages of him speaking. I don't think I listened more than 2 minutes of him talking. He was TERRIBLE!!! I was asked to watch the Francis Ball celebration memorial via webcam too. When he spoke... WOW !! That was the worst memorial service I had ever 'attended'. Horrible. Just Horrible. WEIRD in fact.

Oh... and there were several people who began their 'prophesies' with "God made man to make man god in life and nature, but not in the God-head".

I bet he has the knack to cure insomnia though.

Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then.

How different do you think it is from the RCC ? It became a clone of it. The RCC congregants use 'missals' & catechism doctrines likened to the LSM's HWMR & 'life studies'. The RCC has it's own Catholic Bible as does the LSM, the RcV.

The RCC has the Pope...but unlike Lee, the Pope is replaced when he dies.
Lee of course is the everlasting pope in the LSM.

So not to make this a longer post, I am going to start a new thread on the Jezebel spirit. It may help you understand how people got sucked in.

What is an interesting factoid about me is I was raised Catholic. When I got saved, it was the LC brethren that led me to Christ (in a very, very strong way I might add. Glory to the Lord Jesus!) All was well more or less for a couple of years. I really got set free from most of my sins right away. I had some hidden sins that God eventually set me free from. But it took years because I would not let go.

Anyway...as time went on, legalism crept in in a very big way. We stopped using the word 'Sunday'. It was announced in a meeting one day Sunday was now going to be referred to as "The Lord's Day" because brother Lee said so. We exchanged the bible for the Life Studies. The Life studies became our bible. No different than the RCC 'missals'.

It took me a while to see how similar Lee's teachings were like the RCC. The outer darkness teaching is a purgatory teaching. Purgatory is a place where the souls of Catholics with little sins go to before they go to heaven. It is people's prayers that get them out. Grant it Lee didn't go that far to my knowledge but Purgatory was basically the outer darkness doctrine he taught.

The other common denominator the RCC & the LSM have is the majority of Catholics don't give a kitten kaboodle about the RCC. They go to mass out of habit. But they openly and arrogantly sin without fear. A good example are the Kennedys. Good Catholic men. Uh - Huh. Oh...and the Italian Mafia. Remember the Godfather movie??

But tell those people how evil the RCC is and they'll hang you upside down! Tell them about Jesus and their response is "I am a Catholic & I am not going to change my religion", while they light up a cigarette & take a swig of their beer while checking out a hot dude or a hot chick walking by them.

So what is the stronghold that keeps people in these cult like organizations?

Stay tuned.

We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.

But those who truly desire GOD will be delivered.

Lord help us!

Amen Lisbon. Amen.

Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid. I know very few smart people so maybe that is the answer. RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC and look how he turned out. It may be hard for people to believe in God but it is not at all hard for me to believe in the devil. Over quite a long period of time we were very drugged. Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then. We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.

I had the same feelings when I read the bible again with my LSM blinders off. I felt like I was becoming a Christian all over again. Even though my past life in LSM was depressing and resulted in little spiritual growth, it was exhilarating and exciting to rediscover God and his word again.

After I discovered the bible doesn't really teach assurance of salvation after a simple profession of belief and that only a subset of evangelicals + most southern baptists + brethren + LCs adhere to free grace, it blew my mind away how I could have been so blind. But it's not hard to understand because very few Pastors talk about hell nowadays and you wouldn't even know their theology believes you can go to hell as a Christian for being addicted to things like porn. I realized that I had read the bible haphazardly in the past. Now every verse in the bible has meaning for me and I understand more how nothing is in God's word by accident because it speaks life to so many areas of my existence.

A lot of God's word is so hard to take in it's plain meaning since it convicts our hearts so heavily at times. For that reason men have developed all sorts of theology to soften it's blow throughout the ages. So it's important we hook up with the One Teacher Jesus said we had and the Spirit of truth who will guide us to all truth.

That said I think the best thing to do in your situation is to pray that God would lead you to the right fellowship of Christians who are crazy for Jesus and nothing else. Trust me they're out there if you look hard enough Elijah thought he was alone in the world but God told him he had preserved 7000 like him that didn't bow to Baal.

If you have trouble finding people I recommend watching Sid Roth's channel on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBk8h...Oo8LFBqflttsC5

He's a Messianic Jew who is totally nuts for Jesus. I don't care what people say about Charismatics like him because the dude is on fire for God and it's infectious. He also has a lot of guests on his show that can minister on healing for your life, because God knows how much spiritual healing ex-LCers like myself needed.

Also here is a letter from your Father God to remind you how much he loves you:
http://www.fathersloveletter.com/

[Truth]

I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Truth

I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...

I'm also currently in the LC, and I feel that I need to leave eventually. I know there are others here who are still in the LC as well. You are not alone. Leaving is not easy, if it was I would have left already. I think we all have similar concerns about leaving and don't want to feel "alone". I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm also currently in the LC, and I feel that I need to leave eventually. I know there are others here who are still in the LC as well. You are not alone. Leaving is not easy, if it was I would have left already. I think we all have similar concerns about leaving and don't want to feel "alone". I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.

Seems to me you've developed a kind of co-dependency. Time to stand on your own two feet. You'll more than feel alone for awhile ... but you'll get over it ... and be stronger for it.

Many blessings ....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

... the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.

The apostle John was apparently aware of this dynamic:

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue" 12:42

See also:

"His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue." 9:22

People do have faith in their hearts, and aspirations to obey that faith, but because they fear adverse consequences they're prevented from acting.

The Local Churches of Lee, which made a big deal out of leaving the "sheep fold" and going into the open pasture, have constructed a pretty effective sheep pen themselves.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.

This is a huge insight, especially for someone who is still within the LC fold. Frankly, you are miles ahead of many of us, even after we had physically left for months and even years. This is one of the main reasons for this forum's existence - to have a safe and open place to "process" the thoughts and feelings you have while you go through a very difficult transition. One thing to always, always keep in mind....You are NOT "leaving the Church". You cannot leave the Church anymore than you could leave the Body of Christ. In fact the Church, the Body of Christ is waiting with open arms to accept you, to help you, to protect you. This took me YEARS to realize after I left. But there is no reason for it to take so long for you and Truth.

May the Father of lights, in whom there is no shadow of turning, grant you his wisdom and understanding. May the Lord Jesus, the Great Shepard, lead you and comfort you. May the Spirit of Truth guide you into all truth.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Truth

I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...

A brother I'm close with, and his wife, just quietly walked out. No big deal.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by awareness

A brother I'm close with, and his wife, just quietly walked out. No big deal.

Thanks awareness. This works if you don't have any close friends/connections in the LC. I have a few, and more than a few. There is no way I can just step out quietly without being noticed. I grew up in this and have given my life to this. I was one of those die-hard ministry supporters myself. None can imagine me leaving. It would come as a big shock.

How would I explain all this to them without lying? If I brought up the history of the LC it would seriously hurt some and maybe even ruin their lives. I have friends who have given their entire life and careers to the LC. Some of these are true friends. I know that even when I leave, we will stay in touch; however, this would become a huge wall in our relationship.

I feel stuck and imprisoned right now.

[Lisbon]

This verse in Isa 45:11 is obviously a rhetorical question. Within the last year I asked KR after a meeting what he thought of the verse. Off hand he couldn't remember the context. He said he would look it up and get back with me. He never did. With all due respect to Nee and Lee, this interpretation is about the craziest thing I ever heard out of their mouths. They both pass this word and it is obviously error.

Lisbon