Witness Lee's church puts women's virginity above

[heda lexa]

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

[Ohio]

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

[aron]

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children...

The thing to remember about Paul is that he wrote to the age. "Slaves obey your masters" was relevant to the prevailing social order. Paul was saying, not to fight the existing societal arrangements in the individual quest for spiritual freedom.

I think it's clear that women's roles in society have changed a lot in the past 2,000 years. At least, it's clear to most people.

I've asked 10 times on this forum: why did Watchman Nee have works by Madame Jean Guyon and Jessie Penn-Lewis among his 'spiritual classics' and yet women can't teach in the current LSM/lc? "Spiritual Man" shamelessly copied JPL, yet 100 years later women should be silent in church, because "Paul said so"?

It turns out women were merely props, tools to be exploited & abandoned in the quest for power. Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Dora Yu - their time came and went. Once supreme mastership was attained, they had to (re)learn their place.

[Evangelical]

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

[aron]

-1 "Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs."

You don't think that 5,000 years of fallen human culture haven't imprinted themselves upon LSM/lc interpretation & practices? Which verses are (selectively) waved, and which are dismissed as fallen?

Oh, I forgot - China was 'virgin soil', unsullied. WL told us so. Only heavenly culture. And he should know, if anyone, since he was the apostle of the age.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

I find your comment a little racist. It must be because Lee was Chinese and they are sooooo ancient. And don't forget the golden chariot drawn by 4 horses filled with the gold dowry. It's all important in a Chinese wedding.

Such good ol' family values couldn't possibly be 1960's American customs right? or even ancient Hebrew/biblical?

[UntoHim]

Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:
"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I find your comment a little racist.

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

No one is ignoring these verses, but neither are we instructed to suppress women, abuse or molest them as both of Lee's sons did for decades.

These verses, however, must be balanced with the desires of our Great Shepherd and the Head of the body who often gifts women to be Evangelists, Teachers, Deaconesses, and Prophetesses.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.

How else can you interpret the squashing of all things Christmas and Easter, and the use of Chinese New Year for the preaching of the Gospel?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I find your comment a little racist.

The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

Welcome to the Forum, heda lexa.

I have not heard that Lee's church puts women's virginity above anything else. I don't doubt it though. What I have observed is that Lee and sons have no qualms about taking a woman's virginity away for their own sick desires. There are so many Lee and LC related questions beginning with the word "why."

The truth is that Satan hates women. The seed of a virgin woman was born into this world who would bring about Satan's end. Keep in mind that no man had a role in the conception of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Men like Lee and sons were short sighted on the role of woman in defeating God's enemy. Today that shortsightedness is still carried on around the world in the mistreatment of women. Some men carry that shortsightedness to the level of misogyny. You've heard from one misogynist already.

One day, all things will be made right. Until then, we stand in the freedom that Christ has made us free. That may necessitate removing ourselves from the abusive environment.

Blessings to you and your friend, heda lexa.

Nell

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

Welcome to the forum heda. I'm not familiar with the thought in the LC that, "put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her." The Churches of Witness Lee have a constant drum beat of Witness Lee - I didn't hear the drum beat on a woman's virginity during my time there.

You'll see from the postings of Evangelical that many men within the "LC" don't have a high regard for females. I found this to be true during my time there, which was always sad and a bit confusing. There are many smart and strong women on this forum I'm sure could lend much to your journey.

I haven't seen the forum "promote a book" as Evangelical describes. But then again, I'd be OK with Evangelical. My wife stays at home with the baby and cooks all my meals - shes not a CEO, we don't use a daycare while my wife goes to the gym. So my family passes the Evangelical test. Hurray! Maybe me and Evangelical have more in common then I thought.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

Arranged marriages were always set up by their families, but in the LSM/FTT's the families usually are left out, and paid staffers are entrusted with the trainee's future.

I'd like to know how many of these arrangements have survived. LSM loves their stats, but we never hear about these ones.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.



Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:
"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-

Thankyou UntoHim for tempering my remarks.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.

The value of a woman's virginity is not from Chinese culture it is biblical.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.

If you google "Witness Lee white red black brown yellow" he used these colors all the time to characterize ethnicities.

Or google "Witness Lee typical American" or "Witness Lee Caucasian Chinese" you will see many references in his public speaking. They're all published and visible on-line. Yet I never heard anyone call him racist. Why the double standard?

Valuing virginity is biblical culture. But the larger point remains, that what was chosen and waved by this ministry, and what was ignored or even panned as "fallen" was entirely due to culturally-sourced biases of the expositor.

Everyone has bias. But the problem with LSM is that they presumed there wasn't any, that the only lc culture was "heavenly culture", that critiquing the ministry was tantamount to rebellion against God.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. "The brothers" have arranged marriages since my first contact with it in 1972. Do they arrange ALL marriages? No. Although, it was risky for a couple to marry "without permission." You can think of them as pushy, nosey matchmakers who think they know everything.

I know one sister who refused their "match" for her and married someone else from another locality. This couple moved away from Texas, where at last contact, they are still married and still in the LC. This makes the point that some can "get away" with disobedience to the elders and some can't.

One visiting couple who was dating at their first visit were assigned a local to sit with them. Soon, the local was sitting between them and serious effort was made to split them up. These obvious antics were shallow enough that the couple caught on pretty quickly and they stopped coming to meetings. It was so obvious what was going on, you could spot it across the hall. If it weren't so pathetically sad, it would be laughable.

I heard Ray Graver say once that the only thing worse than marrying the wrong person was to never find and marry the right person.

Nell

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

I didn't consider it "brokered" or related to LSM in any way. I liked this girl, and I wanted to know her situation without embarrassing myself. A major factor is that most in the LC court secretly (I no longer consider this good practice), so an interested young man has little way of knowing if a girl is already seeing someone or not.

Because it is common practice to go through an older person, I also think many sisters consider it too "forward" for a young brother to approach directly. Yet, I also have heard some sisters say they would find it more attractive if a brother did approach directly. So, there is some diversity of opinion. In my own mind at the time, I was seeking council and also some assurance that someone older and wiser than me knew what was going on and was praying for me. I might not do it the same way now, but I have never considered the process nefarious. More old-fashioned.

Also, although many young people may consider it an unwritten rule, I know that LC coworkers and FTTA trainers would be quick to say it isn't and that people are free to approach each other directly (after the training). As for Chinese culture, I'm not sure. This practice may more be a byproduct of FTTA culture where young people are always seeking spiritual confirmation of everything and are afraid to make mistakes.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

If you google "Witness Lee white red black brown yellow" he used these colors all the time to characterize ethnicities.

Or google "Witness Lee typical American" or "Witness Lee Caucasian Chinese" you will see many references in his public speaking. They're all published and visible on-line. Yet I never heard anyone call him racist. Why the double standard?

Valuing virginity is biblical culture. But the larger point remains, that what was chosen and waved by this ministry, and what was ignored or even panned as "fallen" was entirely due to culturally-sourced biases of the expositor.

Everyone has bias. But the problem with LSM is that they presumed there wasn't any, that the only lc culture was "heavenly culture", that critiquing the ministry was tantamount to rebellion against God.

aron, I am not so PC that I take issue with referring to people by their skin color. That is not what I'm talking about.

What is racist is when a person's skin color is stated to be the reason for something. In this case, Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control". In effect saying "white people are this.. "yellow people are that".

[aron]

Evangelical - Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control".

Ohio said that the ratio of yellow to white was inversely proportional to the level of control. In other words, Chinese are comfortable with high levels of control, and Caucasians are not. So the face of the LSM-affiliated lc is increasingly yellow.

This is no different from Witness Lee talking about "red, black, brown, white and yellow" in the church that met as the Lord's recovery. Or talking about "typical Americans" or "Caucasians versus Chinese". And he used that kind of language a lot, and I don't recall anyone being offended, at least saying it.

The Chinese culture values stability. Occasional "storms" are part of that. American, or Western culture values independence. "Every man to his own tent" comes with that.

The LSM-affiliated lc is very tightly controlled by the center, and its demographic is increasingly Chinese. It has an increasingly yellow face. Sorry to point out the obvious. It's nothing different from what Witness Lee would say from the podium.

Originally Posted by John Myer

In Most Places the Organization Will Become Increasingly Asian
Cursory observation will confirm that both worldwide and in major cities of North America, the Local Churches have become predominately Asian. This includes almost all Movement offshoots (such as in the North American Midwest). While race in a congregation should not be an issue restricting Christian fellowship, it can be indicative of whether a church is indeed “local.”

Fifty or more years ago, Witness Lee imported a church and ministry model to North America via Taiwan and the Far East. That import has had only limited success in North America, because it simply doesn’t fit 21st century North American culture. Hence Asian people are vastly over-represented in the LC movement because the model fits them more closely (although even some Asian scholars are beginning to see problems with it). Caucasians and especially Afro-Americans are typically underrepresented wherever the Movement sets up a church.

The unanswered question is how a “local church” can claim to be authentically local when its majority membership is made up of a minority group within that city. For years members were told that “the Lord is moving among the Chinese,” as though He had no interest in working with the Caucasian and Afro- Americans in the community. Few if any could see the difference between divine work and the elementary limitations of foreign culture. While this blindness continues, the churches will continue becoming Asian and especially as long as Lee’s imported model is sold as being “the pattern of the tabernacle,” “the vision,” or “the recovery.” It would be very difficult to say how much spiritual desolation has already happened in LSM churches, but it has occurred to the extent that outsiders notice it. On a regular basis I receive emails from individuals and on some occasions, entire ministries. They wonder why LC people fight so hard for mainstream recognition in the media and yet conduct themselves so poorly in actual fellowship. They wonder if this group is a ministry, a church, or a cult.

Many have assayed to define the Local Church of Witness Lee. As an ex-long term member and leader in the group, I will also attempt a final opinion: The Local Church of Witness Lee is a splinter sect of the Closed Brethren, modified by Asian culture and peculiarly developed because of its isolation from the rest of the Body of Christ.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I didn't consider it "brokered" or related to LSM in any way. I liked this girl, and I wanted to know her situation without embarrassing myself. A major factor is that most in the LC court secretly (I no longer consider this good practice), so an interested young man has little way of knowing if a girl is already seeing someone or not.

Because it is common practice to go through an older person, I also think many sisters consider it too "forward" for a young brother to approach directly. Yet, I also have heard some sisters say they would find it more attractive if a brother did approach directly. So, there is some diversity of opinion. In my own mind at the time, I was seeking council and also some assurance that someone older and wiser than me knew what was going on and was praying for me. I might not do it the same way now, but I have never considered the process nefarious. More old-fashioned.

Also, although many young people may consider it an unwritten rule, I know that LC coworkers and FTTA trainers would be quick to say it isn't and that people are free to approach each other directly (after the training). As for Chinese culture, I'm not sure. This practice may more be a byproduct of FTTA culture where young people are always seeking spiritual confirmation of everything and are afraid to make mistakes.

Thanks for the input. I have heard the concept of the secret "LC" courtship - I think the brother told me it was a "covering" or something like that?

I'm (technically) a millennial, but I would have thought the "old-fashioned" way would be for the guy to approach the girl himself and ask her out eye to eye. That's how I did it, but I also spoke with her parents before asking her hand in marriage...

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks for the input. I have heard the concept of the secret "LC" courtship - I think the brother told me it was a "covering" or something like that?

I'm (technically) a millennial, but I would have thought the "old-fashioned" way would be for the guy to approach the girl himself and ask her out eye to eye. That's how I did it, but I also spoke with her parents before asking her hand in marriage...

You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?

Yes she was - but did not grow up in it. Her experience with the LSM churches was mostly through home meetings. She enjoyed the simplicity, the multi-generational fellowship, and had a close friend attending. Her friend also didn't grow up in the LSM churches. She had read very little Lee*, but had read some Nee. The concept of "locality" is interesting and attractive until you see how it is carried out practically in the LSM churches - and Lee's teaching on locality is not only extra biblical, but borders (or crosses) on heresy.

*edit - she had read very little Lee outside of the "footnotes", emanna, and HWFMR. In the churches of Witness Lee, Lee WILL be preached. Rule #1

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Evangelical - Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control".

Ohio said that the ratio of yellow to white was inversely proportional to the level of control. In other words, Chinese are comfortable with high levels of control, and Caucasians are not. So the face of the LSM-affiliated lc is increasingly yellow.

This is no different from Witness Lee talking about "red, black, brown, white and yellow" in the church that met as the Lord's recovery. Or talking about "typical Americans" or "Caucasians versus Chinese". And he used that kind of language a lot, and I don't recall anyone being offended, at least saying it.

The Chinese culture values stability. Occasional "storms" are part of that. American, or Western culture values independence. "Every man to his own tent" comes with that.

The LSM-affiliated lc is very tightly controlled by the center, and its demographic is increasingly Chinese. It has an increasingly yellow face. Sorry to point out the obvious. It's nothing different from what Witness Lee would say from the podium.

So you agree it means yellow skinned people are comfortable with control and white skinned people are not. This seems racist to me. What about yellow skinned people born in America.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So you agree it means yellow skinned people are comfortable with control and white skinned people are not. This seems racist to me. What about yellow skinned people born in America.

Now I remember you!

You're the guy who stood up in the trainings to protest Brother Lee, when he went off on one of his yellow/white rants.

[Intothewind]

I think the whole covering of courtship results in many more getting hurt than if people were open and honest in the long run

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now I remember you!

You're the guy who stood up in the trainings to protest Brother Lee, when he went off on one of his yellow/white rants.

Ohio,

In all fairness, it's no longer 1978, and we should perhaps respect the sensibilities of the age. "Increasingly Asian" makes the same point without risking offense, and distracting he conversation. And the point should be made.

I know there's also a loss to submit to the "politically correct" mode, but still, it may be best to keep the focus where it belongs.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

I think the whole covering of courtship results in many more getting hurt than if people were open and honest in the long run

I think the elders and controlers of LSM and the LC movement are agnostic in that they cant trust the Spirit to lead and minister in the hearts of young people to find spouses. It seems that the elders think the Spirit needs the elders to meddle, give opinions, and guide the saints according to natural knowledge.

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think the elders and controlers of LSM and the LC movement are agnostic in that they cant trust the Spirit to lead and minister in the hearts of young people to find spouses. It seems that the elders think the Spirit needs the elders to meddle, give opinions, and guide the saints according to natural knowledge.

Wow you hit the nail on the head!!! That makes so much sense.

I remember watching how things transpired between brothers and sisters from a young age and thought it was kind of odd that the elders had such a say. Like if two people loved each other but a brother didn't have a "sense of peace" about it they would stop pursuing the relationship. And yes, I do think it made it worse. It's like no one really had a real choice, ever. And that's such a mind screw. So frustrating and not normal!!!

It's bad enough that they limit the interactions between brothers and sisters when it's normal for them to want to start talking. But that the elders have such a place in the beginning of the relationship, and the wedding itself in a lot of cases isn't cool. Also just the underlying suspicion/lack of trust wasn't cool.
It's not normal for every head to turn when a brother is trying to talk to a sister. It's weird.

I felt too smothered and just couldn't deal with the judgement, gossip, control and constant waiting for the ok just to talk to someone!!! I just couldn't bear the thought of having to live up to such high standards and fit into so many boxes just to be "allowed" to have something that was normal. I'm glad that there are some that are happily married but sadly there aren't enough success stories with their "model"
It just makes sense to connect the dots-there isn't much respect or trust that things really do work out for the good to those who love God.
Autonomy is next to non existent.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?

Oh! This “covering” issue is so bizarre and outdated. It’s awful really. I have a family member who did this before they were married. They had talked marriage and were very serious, of course “fellowshipping” with another couple and obeying all the rules. Which, good for then if that made them feel great. To each their own...it’s just obviously not their “own” but the LC way- but that’s besides the point!

That was their choice.

The funny thing was, it DOES create even more gossip bc people know- they pick up on things, and questions and rumors get started. Hopefully the secret didn’t lead any other bro/sis’s on with secret hopes- but we’ll never know! I remember this family member telling me people were asking about her and her spouse before they were married and she denied it- saying they were just friends. Um, besides the fact that you could tell she thought it was funny that she had that “secret” that people wanted to know- isn’t that flat out LYING?? But, somehow it’s justified bc it’s “covered” information and that person didn’t have the right to ask so they deserve to be given a lie.

By the way, we’re talking about a group of Christians!!

It’s just another example of bad practices playing out!

Kind of funny story on the same topic, our family knew of their “arrangement” before they were engaged but not many other people. I accidentally posted a picture on Facebook of our family at lunch with my
future bro-in- law in it. All I can saw is-WOW!!!

It wasn’t 10 min and I got a call to take it down immediately!! It’s so silly. I took it down- the whole games they play are ridiculous though!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

Koinonia- I couldn’t agree more. Nothing is perfect but this is certainly something that needs to change. You can’t “fix” gossip with practices, gossip will find a way of sneaking in through the back door, even stronger bc the “secret” is now bigger. Marriage is an idol to many of these women and it’s easy to see why. They are seeing the “best versions” of each other- without being alone and letting their guards down. I mean, it is a personal discipline to exercise self control and although things may happen- it’s a personal walk and decision between you and Jesus. No elder can or should try to “control” that. Guide, yes. Control, no. This “covering” issue is so bizarre and outdated. It’s awful really. I have a family member who did this before they were married. They had talked marriage and were very serious, of course “fellowshipping” with another couple and obeying all the rules. Which, good for then if they made them feel great. To each their own...it’s just obviously not their “own” but the LC way- but that’s besides the point!

That was their choice.

The funny thing was, it DOES create even more gossip bc people know- they pick up on things, and questions and rumors get started. Hopefully the secret didn’t lead any other bro/sis’s on with secret hopes- but we’ll never know! I remember this family member telling me people were asking about her and her spouse before they were married and she denied it- saying they were just friends. Um, besides the fact that you could tell she thought it was funny that she had that “secret” that people wanted to know- isn’t that flat out LYING?? But, somehow it’s justified bc it’s “covered” information and that person didn’t have the right to ask so they deserve to be given a lie.

By the way, we’re talking about a group of Christians!!

It’s just another example of bad practices playing out!

Kind of funny story on the same topic, our family knew of their “arrangement” before they were engaged but not many other people. I accidentally posted a picture on Facebook of our family where my future bro in law was included. Wow- it was a genuine mistake but I got a panicked phone call within an hr- saying the picture must be taken down immediately. They weren’t too happy with me- to say the least.

I’m sure they went into damage control mode-wondering how many people “knew” the secret now. I took it down but was just surprised at the level of urgency. They are so concerned with doing things in the “right LC PC way.” I’m sorry, I’m just trying to live my life and if you want me to cover for you or keep secrets then maybe they should write up a Non-Disclosure Agreement for the “potential couples” to give to other family members!

I’m not trying to be harsh. It’s just so weird to me that they can’t even be seen in the same Facebook picture when they’re already talking about marriage- bc of the LC culture. Then, I’m the one “in the wrong” for not being considerate of that. It’s too much- I’m just so tired of that kind of behavior. I don’t think it’s normal for a Christian and think it’s 100% LC culture and not Jesus. Then also, living under the insinuation from them that they are the ones in the “light,” and I’m “negative” is just too much sometimes.

I need some Jesus love today- sorry for my negative words. It’s just frustrating and I wish that kind of stuff wouldn’t be such an alienating problem. It’s a bunch of these little things that lead to bitterness and that’s the last thing I want.

Balancing shining light of these issues to expose them- and also relating to them personally is a tricky thing to handle emotionally.

I don’t blame the people acting this way- it’s the LC culture and it’s a big problem.

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

I heard Ray Graver say once that the only thing worse than marrying the wrong person was to never find and marry the right person.

My aunt who raised her family in the LC once gave me sound advice when I was a single brother:
"It's better to be single than to be married to the wrong person."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

My experience, my mom functioned as the parent a good portion of my childhood. Raised the five of us and did not have continual employment until my youngest brother was in high school.
Ephesians 5:23 is a good verse. However that does not imply the husband should lord over his wife. Rather begin with verse 21 "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Ephesians 5:21-26
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Terry

My experience, my mom functioned as the parent a good portion of my childhood. Raised the five of us and did not have continual employment until my youngest brother was in high school.
Ephesians 5:23 is a good verse. However that does not imply the husband should lord over his wife. Rather begin with verse 21 "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Ephesians 5:21-26
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Let's read what an expert in NT Greek says:

"v 21 is a programmatic statement ("being submissive to one another in the fear of Christ"), applicable to all in the church in a general sense. Only by exegetical gymnastics can it be made directly applicable to both halves of the three groups in 5:22-6:9 (should parents be submissive to children?).... The house tables thus do not advance the argument per se, but answer an implicit question growing out of 2:11-22, viz., If Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in the body of Christ, does this mean that all social hierarchies are abolished? The answer seems to be a resounding 'No.'"

Daniel B. Wallace (professor of New Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary)

This professor, is an egalitarian at heart (reading his articles, he describes such conflict within him). But his knowledge and expertise in the Greek language leads him to conclude as he does.

To say this in a plainer way - if husbands must submit to wives as wives submit to husbands, then parents must submit to children and God/Christ must submit to us. Obviously this does not make sense, neither in English or in biblical Greek. There is only one clear, plain reading of the text. Other interpretations are "exegetical gymnastics".

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.
I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!

For me, I didn't feel pure because I wasn't. I knew I wasn't "pure"... I wasn't innocent like everyone else. And I knew I would have issues from it for awhile, and it took years to work through. It still comes up, but I am learning now to not try to stuff it down, to let God heal me at the deepest level. Sometimes I wish I could have felt safe telling those who knew me, I wish it could have made a difference. But I already knew of some people in the LC who knew about what happened but they looked away. I was ashamed, and didn't want to say anything because I don't like drama or attention, I wanted a solution to the problem that they couldn't give me.

I am thankful that for so many years God was there with me, he loved me when I didn't believe I was lovable. Any time I was in despair he was there for me. I still had such an issue with unbelief and faith but it was because of my wounds from earthly authority figures. God was always there.

What a wonderful feeling to be validated, to be given permission to feel, heal. Who knows how much healing and closure I would have gotten if I was still in the LC and married into it with the package that goes with it. I needed to be free from any pressure to perform and going to meetings, etc, otherwise it would still be festering. All I know is that God loves all His children, no matter where they are physically, spiritually or mentally, and no matter what has happened to them. And I have experienced God's grace and love and mercy, and felt His presence in the hardest moments of my life.

What I have been learning is that our destiny in Christ is to praise and worship Him despite the evil. Because evil has no power. It's so healing to realize this, amidst all the tears and hurt. It's incredible how hard it is to choose to heal, let the wounds open and let God heal. So many suppressed wounds. But God is bigger than wounds it just takes praying for faith and trust, and healing. Every little step of being real and honest sets us free.

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

So I am so glad to have found this forum and to have read so many of your testimonies. Thank you!
My prayer is that we all grow closer to God and into freedom and peace and trust in our Redeemer. Even though it has been hard and there have been so many heart breaking stories shared on this forum, God's grace abounds. And no matter what we have been told, we are not worthless, and we have a place in God's Kingdom! I am growing more and more into faith and trust every day, and I am so so thankful. I used to think God's love was for everyone else, not me. That God would speak to anyone but me. So many layers of lies. So not true!!

Let's kick the devils butt!!!

~Blue Orchid

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.
I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!

For me, I didn't feel pure because I wasn't. I knew I wasn't. I wasn't like everyone else. And I knew I would have issues from it for awhile, and it took years to work through. It still comes up, but I am learning now to not try to stuff it down, to let God heal me at the deepest level. Sometimes I wish I could have felt safe telling those who knew me, I wish it could have made a difference. But I already knew of some people in the LC who knew about what happened but they looked away. I was ashamed, and didn't want to say anything because I don't like drama or attention, I wanted a solution to the problem that they couldn't give me.

I am thankful that for so many years God was there with me, he loved me when I didn't believe I was lovable. Any time I was in despair he was there for me. I still had such an issue with unbelief and faith but it was because of my wounds from earthly authority figures. God was always there.

What a wonderful feeling to be validated, to be given permission to feel, heal. Who knows how much healing and closure I would have gotten if I was still in the LC and married into it with the package that goes with it. I needed to be free from any pressure to perform and going to meetings, etc, otherwise it would still be festering. All I know is that God loves all His children, no matter where they are physically, spiritually or mentally, and no matter what has happened to them. And I have experienced God's grace and love and mercy, and felt His presence in the hardest moments of my life.

What I have been learning is that our destiny in Christ is to praise and worship Him despite the evil. Because evil has no power. It's so healing to realize this, amidst all the tears and hurt. It's incredible how hard it is to choose to heal, let the wounds open and let God heal. So many suppressed wounds. But God is bigger than wounds it just takes praying for faith and trust, and healing. Every little step of being real and honest sets us free.

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

So I am so glad to have found this forum and to have read so much of your testimonies. Thank you!
My prayer is that we all grow closer to God and into freedom and peace and trust in our Redeemer. Even though it has been hard and there have been so many heart breaking stories shared on this forum, God's grace abounds. And no matter what we have been told, we are not worthless, and we have a place in God's Kingdom! I am growing more and more into faith and trust every day, and I am so so thankful. I used to think God's love was for everyone else, not me. That God would speak to anyone but me. So many layers of lies. So not true!!

Let's kick the devils butt!!!

~Blue Orchid

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

~Blue Orchid

Blue Orchid, thanks for telling your story. It helps us, but helps you more.

I happened to hear that powerful statements from the victims and the judge who sentenced that slimy Olympic doctor. She allowed every victim to speak directly to him. Even medical counselors tell us how therapeutic this is for all the victims.

This forum may not be a courtroom with the perps present, but hopefully can help the many LC victims in some small way in their healing.

[awareness]

My heart deeply goes out to victims of sexual abuse in their youth.

I'm close friends, still, with a sister I've known since the church in Detroit, way back in the early 70s.

As a young girl she was sexually molested by her father. Her parents were Baptist missionary's. You would never expect such behavior out of someone that has committed their whole life to preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, in foreign lands. It's bad enough that the abuser was her father. But it's even worse that he was a missionary preacher, that many others looked up to, with innocent respect and admiration, as their model of what it is to be a good upstanding Christian.

In short, the result of such sexual abuse, committed by a preacher father, is that, it did life long damage to this sister. She's struggled her whole life with the psychological damage. She's spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on shrinks, and has been treated with every psychotropic drug that can be prescribed for such psychological conditions. She's tried everything possible, to deal with it, and get on with her life.

Her son, by her first husband in the LC, was sexually molested by her second husband she was with after leaving the LC. So he's got similar psychological issues as his mother. But he won't admit it, and so he doesn't address it, or the mess it has created in his life, and btw, all the additional troubles it has caused his mother. Admitting it is the first step to really dealing with it. She admits it, he doesn't. She finds help but he doesn't.

That's why my heart goes out to BlueOrchid and NeverfreefromLC. May the Lord bless them, and keep them, wherever life leads them.

By the way, today she considers herself a Hindu. She finds more help in the eastern religions, than she finds in Christianity. Go figure. Whatever works.

[HERn]

This is so sad. It is not unique to Christianity or the Lords Recovery.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by awareness

Girls that are molested won't be that valuable.

That first concept is SO harmful to victims of sexual abuse. I know of sisters who felt like they were impure because of something that happened to them, that they had no choice over. It's victim blaming and can make it harder to speak out against abuse as well.

And sisters that aren't married, aren't worth much either, in churches like the local church.

I do feel like on the second point, there was this expected progression of university -> FTT -> serve for one or two years -> get married -> Have babies.

If you don't find a husband pray really hard, and fellowship with the brothers. They'll find one for you!

As a woman who fell off that path and started working I did find it harder to know what my place was in the church life. They often wanted me to help in the campus work, but I felt like that just valued me as a "white face" to attract more "white faces" with. Though what actually happened, is when talking to a new student and they found out I was not a master student but working, they were always kind of like "Why are you here then?"
A valid question, why was I at a university event when I was no longer at university...

Though this also gave me space to question what was really going on, and working in a corporate environment gave me exposure to places where I was valued for my intelligence and my opinion did matter. If I asked why something was done a certain way I was either given a proper explanation and/or given the option to present a better way of doing it.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

I am not an FTTA grad but I did attend an FTT within the last 10 years and this is basicaly what they told us.

If you are interested in another brother or sister you should go to an elder and tell them. The elder will then approach the person of interest on your behalf. This will keep it all properly "covered".

Some people got together this way.
Some people had no involvement from the elders about who they married.
Some people had elders suggesting they get together even though neither had said they were interested in the other person.

I had a older sister of influence approach me a few years ago telling me how a brother had expressed a desire for a wife, trying to gauge my interest. I honestly can't remember how I reacted but I do know I had a laugh about it afterwards that someone would think I would make a "good wife" for that person.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Terry

My aunt who raised her family in the LC once gave me sound advice when I was a single brother:
"It's better to be single than to be married to the wrong person."

My dear mother always gave me this advice too.

[Kyle Yoakum]

Regarding the Chinese aspect of the Local Churches, why does it appear that mostly Chinese make up the younger generation in the Local Churches in the USA and Europe? I have been out of the LC since 1989, so am not up to date on things. But I see Local Church news on Twitter plus some Youtube videos from around the world. It seems the vast majority of members are Chinese no matter where in the world the footage is shot.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

Regarding the Chinese aspect of the Local Churches, why does it appear that mostly Chinese make up the younger generation in the Local Churches in the USA and Europe? I have been out of the LC since 1989, so am not up to date on things. But I see Local Church news on Twitter plus some Youtube videos from around the world. It seems the vast majority of members are Chinese no matter where in the world the footage is shot.

That's exactly right. I've said several times here that the FTTA, for example, is now 75%-90% Asian.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

Regarding the Chinese aspect of the Local Churches, why does it appear that mostly Chinese make up the younger generation in the Local Churches in the USA and Europe? I have been out of the LC since 1989, so am not up to date on things. But I see Local Church news on Twitter plus some Youtube videos from around the world. It seems the vast majority of members are Chinese no matter where in the world the footage is shot.

Native Americans have been quarantined.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Native Americans have been quarantined.

Are then any indigenous Americans in the church life?

There is a small handful of indigenous people in the churches in Australia and New Zealand.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Are then any indigenous Americans in the church life?

They are Americans who were born here, i.e. real "locals."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

That's exactly right. I've said several times here that the FTTA, for example, is now 75%-90% Asian.

Better get used to it. In a few more years now, America will be 75-90% Asian.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

In a few more years now, America will be 75-90% Asian.

If so, when LC leaders (metaphorically) flog members to recruit "typical Americans" it won't be so difficult any more, will it? Even now, some American LC "localities" have 2 separate meetings on Sunday morning: one for Chinese-speakers and the other for everyone else. One's growing while the other's not - guess which one is which.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Better get used to it. In a few more years now, America will be 75-90% Asian.

Dude, you don't get out much, do you? The ethnic Chinese/Taiwanese population (which is the vast majority of Asian LCers in the US) are not much more than ONE PERCENT (1%) of the population. So the real point is (and the one you are avoiding) is just why does a group that compromises about 1% of the population make up 75%+ in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Why is the Caucasian population in the movement shrinking in a country in which they make up about 70% of the population? I would venture to say that there are less total Caucasians in the LC here in America then there was 40 years ago. And this is in the land where Witness Lee based his ministry for the last 35 years of his life!

And all this comes after 25-30 years of a desperate effort to "gain the average American Caucasian". Could it be that the average American (Caucasian or otherwise) has rejected the ministries of two Chinese fellows who were products of early to mid 20th century China? Of course it didn't help when Witness Lee dubbed us gullible average Americans "mooing cows" and our churches "little daughters of the great whore".
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[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Dude, you don't get out much, do you? The ethnic Chinese/Taiwanese population (which is the vast majority of Asian LCers in the US) are not much more than ONE PERCENT (1%) of the population. So the real point is (and the one you are avoiding) is just why does a group that compromises about 1% of the population make up 75%+ in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Why is the Caucasian population in the movement shrinking in a country in which they make up about 70% of the population? I would venture to say that there are less total Caucasians in the LC here in America then there was 40 years ago. And this is in the land where Witness Lee based his ministry for the last 35 years of his life!

And all this comes after 25-30 years of a desperate effort to "gain the average American Caucasian". Could it be that the average American (Caucasian or otherwise) has rejected the ministries of two Chinese fellows who were products of early to mid 20th century China? Of course it didn't help when Witness Lee dubbed us gullible average Americans "mooing cows" and our churches "little daughters of the great whore".
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They are not "your churches". They all started in Europe with the exception of Mormonism which is really the only home grown American church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They are not "your churches". They all started in Europe with the exception of Mormonism which is really the only home grown American church.

This is so absurd. Did not every church begin at Jerusalem? What's the point?

If the Recovery began in China, then acc. to your logic, they are all Chinese churches. Which they are today, based upon all evidence.

"Our churches" are "our churches" because they are composed of our people in our towns. A point which apparently is too difficult for you to grasp.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is so absurd. Did not every church begin at Jerusalem? What's the point?
If the Recovery began in China, then acc. to your logic, they are all Chinese churches. Which they are today, based upon all evidence.
"Our churches" are "our churches" because they are composed of our people in our towns. A point which apparently is too difficult for you to grasp.

Lee did not call the people in the towns "little daughters of the great whore", but the denominations. Clearly we are talking about the denominations so I responded in kind. I took "our churches" to refer to the denominations.

Anyway, even you seem to agree with the definition of the "church in the locality" when it suits you.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Better get used to it. In a few more years now, America will be 75-90% Asian.

Do you believe this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Lee did not call the people in the towns "little daughters of the great whore", but the denominations. Clearly we are talking about the denominations so I responded in kind. I took "our churches" to refer to the denominations.

Anyway, even you seem to agree with the definition of the "church in the locality" when it suits you.

When it comes to LSMers, nothing is clear, sincere, or straightforward.

Took me a while to get used to that.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can someone tell me the real (and maybe written) purpose of this forum? Is it stated somewhere?
Or is there some other purpose for this forum which escapes me right now?

I think the written purpose is on the header, “Open discussion of...”. This forum has helped countless people coming out of the LSM churches and I hope even more from reaching the doors of the churches of Witness Lee.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I think the written purpose is on the header, “Open discussion of...”. This forum has helped countless people coming out of the LSM churches and I hope even more from reaching the doors of the churches of Witness Lee.

This forum gives people a voice. In "oneness" churches like the LC, only the Maximum Brother gets a voice, and everyone else has to "get in line". (That's one of Watchman Nee's "recovered truths"). Here on this forum God can expose the satanic lie for what it is.

Witness Lee taught, "No opinions". . . actually, that was his opinion, and it meant "Only I get to have an opinion." Here, we get to call things as they really are.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I think the written purpose is on the header, “Open discussion of...”. This forum has helped countless people coming out of the LSM churches and I hope even more from reaching the doors of the churches of Witness Lee.

And thanks, brother, for your service in doing this! Forgive me, I keep getting the notion that the purpose is around fellowship in love. But I've seen you say a couple times that it is about helping keep saints from getting involved with the LC. And that's fine. Especially if that's what the Lord is telling you to do. I just need to keep that in mind, and not have too much expectation beyond that.

May the Lord use these discussions for His loving purpose in and through us!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And thanks, brother, for your service in doing this! Forgive me, I keep getting the notion that the purpose is around fellowship in love. But I've seen you say a couple times that it is about helping keep saints from getting involved with the LC. And that's fine. Especially if that's what the Lord is telling you to do. I just need to keep that in mind, and not have too much expectation beyond that.

May the Lord use these discussions for His loving purpose in and through us!

For me personally, especially in those confusing days when I was departing the LC program, the fiery debates were often the most helpful. I was watching others dismantle LC tenets which I was long convinced were truth, yet had imprisoned me. Instead of just hearing the endless repetitive testimonies in meetings, I read the behind-the-scenes accounts of things long hidden from me. I was getting answers to nagging questions which I had buried for years.

I wish it wasn't so. I wish the Christian life and the church life were free from conflict. But a careful reading of the N.T. shows us there never was such a "glorious church." There were definitely glorious times in the church, but it always seemed so short lived. When we read the sad stories of many LC members, then we are reminded of why this forum exists.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I read the behind-the-scenes accounts of things long hidden from me. I was getting answers to nagging questions which I had buried for years.

In the pre-internet days, the LSM was able to bury the voices of others. They had the only printing press in town. I read FPR and assumed that was it. Never even heard of Daystar. (I heard veiled allusions to the 'storm' but when I made inquiries I was rebuffed).

Only online was I able to get access to the testimonies of Jane Anderson, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, Don Hardy, Don Rutledge and many others. Only then did a fuller picture begin to take shape.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, this forum makes better sense now - thanks everyone for explaining your view of its purpose. I came on here and began wondering why we weren't sharing love and grace more.

So can someone point me in the direction of a Christian forum that is devoted to sharing matters of grace and what He's shown us in the word . . . or is there a section on this forum that's more like that? (for instance, I really enjoyed a little booklet of T. Austin Sparks this morning that Emmanuel Church sent me just out of the blue, called "The Revelation of the Father." The speaking in it is so rich and I wanted to sharing some things from it with others.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, this forum makes better sense now - thanks everyone for explaining your view of its purpose. I came on here and began wondering why we weren't sharing love and grace more.

So can someone point me in the direction of a Christian forum that is devoted to sharing matters of grace and what He's shown us in the word . . . or is there a section on this forum that's more like that? (for instance, I really enjoyed a little booklet of T. Austin Sparks this morning that Emmanuel Church sent me just out of the blue, called "The Revelation of the Father." The speaking in it is so rich and I wanted to sharing some things from it with others.)

Find a thread that suits you, or start a new thread.

Spell out a couple guidelines, and ask others to adhere.

Like the "Praise Worship Song of the Day" thread.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I came on here and began wondering why we weren't sharing love and grace more. . . .

. . . So can someone point me in the direction of a Christian forum that is devoted to sharing matters of grace and what He's shown us in the word . .

. . . I really enjoyed a little booklet of T. Austin Sparks this morning that Emmanuel Church sent me just out of the blue, called "The Revelation of the Father." The speaking in it is so rich and I wanted to sharing some things from it with others.)

Hey brother SoG, congratulations, seems you found what you were looking for in Sparks.

Sparks is full of grace. He gives his material away for free. So does LCD.

You don't want to know what Lee said about Sparks. It was empty of grace, to say the least.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

In the pre-internet days, the LSM was able to bury the voices of others. They had the only printing press in town. I read FPR and assumed that was it.

When I read FPR, it was just the opposite. The books content went against every fiber of my being. Of course when you have only one side of the story to rely on, how do you rebuff such a claim? All I knew was my mingled spirit did not agree with the book.

Terry Fisher

[least]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, this forum makes better sense now - thanks everyone for explaining your view of its purpose. I came on here and began wondering why we weren't sharing love and grace more.

So can someone point me in the direction of a Christian forum that is devoted to sharing matters of grace and what He's shown us in the word . . . or is there a section on this forum that's more like that? (for instance, I really enjoyed a little booklet of T. Austin Sparks this morning that Emmanuel Church sent me just out of the blue, called "The Revelation of the Father." The speaking in it is so rich and I wanted to sharing some things from it with others.)

Sons to Glory!, I think you can start a thread on this. I suggest you include in your guideline that the thread be discussed 'Nee Lee free'. The forum owner once had allowed me this request. And I hope you will guide the thread to discuss 'the revelation of the father' than T A Sparks himself.

Thank you.

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[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And thanks, brother, for your service in doing this! Forgive me, I keep getting the notion that the purpose is around fellowship in love. But I've seen you say a couple times that it is about helping keep saints from getting involved with the LC. And that's fine. Especially if that's what the Lord is telling you to do. I just need to keep that in mind, and not have too much expectation beyond that.

May the Lord use these discussions for His loving purpose in and through us!

That’s not what the forum is about (at least from my perspective), but that is what it is about for me. It is an open discussion. I don’t have very much time to designate to the forum, but I have taken time to fellowship in love with members that have PM me privately with issues and questions. I’ve prayed for the confused on this forum and one of them asked me not to pray for them any longer - although I continue to pray (it’s all I can do).

Fellowship in love, for me, is primarily done in person. If you’d like to know more about what that looks like in my life, how Christ works through me practically, I’d be happy to share.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Find a thread that suits you, or start a new thread.

Spell out a couple guidelines, and ask others to adhere.

Like the "Praise Worship Song of the Day" thread.

Thanks. I think I'll do that bro!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

When I read FPR, it was just the opposite. The books content went against every fiber of my being. Of course when you have only one side of the story to rely on, how do you rebuff such a claim? All I knew was my mingled spirit did not agree with the book.

Terry Fisher

And "FPR" is who?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

That’s not what the forum is about (at least from my perspective), but that is what it is about for me. It is an open discussion. I don’t have very much time to designate to the forum, but I have taken time to fellowship in love with members that have PM me privately with issues and questions. I’ve prayed for the confused on this forum and one of them asked me not to pray for them any longer - although I continue to pray (it’s all I can do).

Fellowship in love, for me, is primarily done in person. If you’d like to know more about what that looks like in my life, how Christ works through me practically, I’d be happy to share.

The Lord be with your spirit - grace be with you! Ditto regarding fellowship in love being primarily in person. Sometimes it is easy to forget that the person you are communicating with via this forum, is someone for whom Christ died to make part of the family!

Of course, people can work both inside and outside the home in a marriage, having a rich and full life. The two partners in a marriage can both do cooking and cleaning, as well as child rearing. Both can take on financial responsibility. In our marriage of over a mere 34 years, both partners continue to put in 150% into the marriage. With regard to child rearing, our functions as parents were different. The man in this relationship did not need to raise his voice to the children because he carried the authority and the kids knew this from an early age. While the wife also had authority in child rearing , she also was the nurturer. Who did the kids go to or call out for when they fell down and needed a bandaid? She did so many things a man could not do. The man did things the woman could not do. His physical strength and spiritual leadership both inside and outside the home are vital. Both parents could and did work outside the home as well as inside the home, and continue to do it successfully, only now enjoying retirement and our grown children their spouses, and the grandchildren. The children benefited immensely. They had opportunities which a double income provides. They grew up with a strong work ethic and are able to give to others because much was given to them (love, nurturing, and discipline). I have to chuckle when people assign automatic jobs to each partner in a marriage, claiming Bible verses to back up their view. Same thing goes for having an intermediary matchmaker and/or permission giver for entering into a marriage. Our matchmaker was Jesus. Prayer was the means we used to determine the match God had for each of us. Fortunately, my spouse felt the same way. Marriage takes an incredible amount of work. There is no free ride on meals and lodging. There is no free ride on expecting the other partner to do what you would not do for yourself. There is great freedom in Christ! He is our center! The problem with having a go-between is that the TWO partners in the relationship have to live with one another for the duration of the marriage contract and go into the marriage with this in view. I got to the point where I realized that 50 years or more would not be enough time with my marriage partner! Finally, it takes a strong Godly woman to step up to the plate and work outside the home. She does double duty. In fact, with the expectation of the traditional thou shalt stay at home, when a woman works outside the home, she is working twice as hard. Going out into the fields to labor and harvest with a toddler in a backback, an infant swaddled in the front, and two older youngsters nearby under their mother's watchful and responsible eye, is no one easy feat. As for the man, it takes a lot of Christ-centered confidence to have this kind of helpmate. It is not for the faint of heart! Both partners put in 150%.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And "FPR" is who?

Book entitled Fermentation of Present Rebellion by WL which slanders brothers like John Ingalls. The book was used to cover up corruption at LSM and smear the reputations of those who spoke their conscience as "whistleblowers" in order to protect the saints.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Book entitled Fermentation of Present Rebellion by WL which slanders brothers like John Ingalls. The book was used to cover up corruption at LSM and smear the reputations of those who spoke their conscience as "whistleblowers" in order to protect the saints.

Not only, but it's very misleading. One of this forum's members had a testimony included in FPR. Said his testimonies were copied and pasted from different dates giving the appearance of a fluid single testimony on a single date.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Book entitled Fermentation of Present Rebellion by WL which slanders brothers like John Ingalls. The book was used to cover up corruption at LSM and smear the reputations of those who spoke their conscience as "whistleblowers" in order to protect the saints.

Thanks. And by any chance is there a glossary of terms & acronyms for this forum?

[least]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not only, but it's very misleading. One of this forum's members had a testimony included in FPR. Said his testimonies were copied and pasted from different dates giving the appearance of a fluid single testimony on a single date.

Terry can you point me to this forum member's post? I want to read it for myself.
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