How is the LC abusive to you?

The church definitely has to have boundary or rules, as a believer we are bound to an authority. But how is the LC different than other groups in terms of abusiveness in practice? What exactly or which doctrine is abusive to you? I guess if you don't have problem with the practices taught by the LC, then it's not abusive to you.

[byHismercy]

Lying to people about what you believe and do is abuse of the 'authority' they claim to have, I feel. Maligning and casting out brothers who speak out against the abuse of Lees' son is abusive, too. Sueing or attempting to sue those who object to abuses is abusive. Hmmm, what else?

[Nell]

I was summoned to the “elders” room one night after a meeting. I had no idea what was about to happen to me. One of them raised his voice at me and told me THIS IS GOING TO STOP!!!!

Then he began a list of accusations of all my “bad” behavior toward the couple where I was in corporate living. This couple did not bother to come to me with a list of my offenses. They went directly to the elders. Clearly this is why Matt. 18 was in the Bible, but instead of the elders admonishing the couple to go first to me, they called me in and destroyed me.

“I used the sister’s sewing machine without her permission. “ (Lie. I had my own sewing machine and did not need to use her machine. Really? This is a matter for the church elders?)

“I made the sister who was pregnant at the time, walk to the meetings. “(Lie #1: No one asked me for a ride. Had I known she needed a ride, I would have gladly given her a ride since I was going anyway. Lie #2: There was no “house rule” stating that it was my responsibility to provide transportation anywhere to anyone. Again, really? This was a matter to be resolved by the elders in the church?)

Many of the accusations I did not understand. I was so terrified I thought I was going to die. I thought the ground would open and swallow me. I believed that there were young men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away. Whatever they accused me of, I pled “guilty”, even though I didn’t understand what they were talking about. I was too scared to stand up for myself with one exception. I told them I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT use her sewing machine...with or without permission.

When it was over, I went to a nearby park and hid on some rocks. It was late at night and I was still trembling at what had just happened to me. I stayed there for a long time trying to make sense of it all. I couldn’t. Why didn’t they tell me there was a problem sooner? Why didn’t the couple talk to me and tell ME what their expectations were? Was I so bad that I had to be turned over to the elders rather than have a simple conversation? Why didn’t the sister ask me if I had used her sewing machine, rather than lie to the elders falsely accusing me?

They told me I had to find an apartment and move out of corporate living. This was very shameful to me, even though I never wanted to see that couple again, the shame was staggering. I still went to all the meetings and sat there and cried and cried and cried.

One night on my way home to my apartment, I was bombarded with thoughts that I might as well go ahead and kill myself because I was going to die anyway because of this. I was so scared that I stopped and called one of the elders in a panic and told him what was happening to me. He told me to pray, then he said “goodbye” and hung up. So once again, I was alone on a dark street at night, scared to death.

That night began several years of demonic attacks in my sleep. I would “feel” pressure around my neck and try to wake up but I couldn’t wake up. It took all the strength I had to say “Jesus” and that is all I could say. When I spoke His name, the attack would stop and I would wake up feeling heavy and like I had been drugged. This happened every few months for about 5 years. I eventually learned how to fight spiritual warfare and was able to stop the attacks. They have not occurred since.

Unregistered, how dare you come out here and mock those of us who have suffered abuse at the hands of the elders in the Local Church. My story is only one of many of those who were ambushed in the “elders room”, or, the “little dark room”.

Nell

[jesusislord]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Lying to people about what you believe and do is abuse of the 'authority' they claim to have, I feel. Maligning and casting out brothers who speak out against the abuse of Lees' son is abusive, too. Sueing or attempting to sue those who object to abuses is abusive. Hmmm, what else?

But no church or any group of Christian is perfect right? Should we reconcile and just forgive?

[Truthseeker]

Here there are many testimonies about abusivenss of LC. Many brothers and sisters have shared in this forum or YouTube or website.

[least]

Originally Posted by Nell

I was summoned to the “elders” room one night after a meeting. I had no idea what was about to happen to me. One of them raised his voice at me and told me THIS IS GOING TO STOP!!!!

Then he began a list of accusations of all my “bad” behavior toward the couple where I was in corporate living. This couple did not bother to come to me with a list of my offenses. They went directly to the elders. Clearly this is why Matt. 18 was in the Bible, but instead of the elders admonishing the couple to go first to me, they called me in and destroyed me.

“I used the sister’s sewing machine without her permission. “ (Lie. I had my own sewing machine and did not need to use her machine. Really? This is a matter for the church elders?)

“I made the sister who was pregnant at the time, walk to the meetings. “(Lie #1: No one asked me for a ride. Had I known she needed a ride, I would have gladly given her a ride since I was going anyway. Lie #2: There was no “house rule” stating that it was my responsibility to provide transportation anywhere to anyone. Again, really? This was a matter to be resolved by the elders in the church?)

Many of the accusations I did not understand. I was so terrified I thought I was going to die. I thought the ground would open and swallow me. I believed that there were young men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away. Whatever they accused me of, I pled “guilty”, even though I didn’t understand what they were talking about. I was too scared to stand up for myself with one exception. I told them I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT use her sewing machine...with or without permission.

When it was over, I went to a nearby park and hid on some rocks. It was late at night and I was still trembling at what had just happened to me. I stayed there for a long time trying to make sense of it all. I couldn’t. Why didn’t they tell me there was a problem sooner? Why didn’t the couple talk to me and tell ME what their expectations were? Was I so bad that I had to be turned over to the elders rather than have a simple conversation? Why didn’t the sister ask me if I had used her sewing machine, rather than lie to the elders falsely accusing me?

They told me I had to find an apartment and move out of corporate living. This was very shameful to me, even though I never wanted to see that couple again, the shame was staggering. I still went to all the meetings and sat there and cried and cried and cried.

One night on my way home to my apartment, I was bombarded with thoughts that I might as well go ahead and kill myself because I was going to die anyway because of this. I was so scared that I stopped and called one of the elders in a panic and told him what was happening to me. He told me to pray, then he said “goodbye” and hung up. So once again, I was alone on a dark street at night, scared to death.

That night began several years of demonic attacks in my sleep. I would “feel” pressure around my neck and try to wake up but I couldn’t wake up. It took all the strength I had to say “Jesus” and that is all I could say. When I spoke His name, the attack would stop and I would wake up feeling heavy and like I had been drugged. This happened every few months for about 5 years. I eventually learned how to fight spiritual warfare and was able to stop the attacks. They have not occurred since.

Unregistered, how dare you come out here and mock those of us who have suffered abuse at the hands of the elders in the Local Church. My story is only one of many of those who were ambushed in the “elders room”, or, the “little dark room”.

Nell

Nell, it's heart breaking.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

But no church or any group of Christian is perfect right? Should we reconcile and just forgive?

Of course, no church is "perfect," but the elders are held to a higher standard, and that's why there are strict criteria for their selection.

There is nothing about Nell's story that is normal, healthy, spiritual, Biblical, or righteous. I'm not making an excuse for anyone, but the way these elders treated Nell is exactly how they have been treated by their "superiors." The systemic abuse in the Recovery starts at the top, and "it" all runs down hill.

Why didn't these immature elders investigate these accusations? Why wasn't grace and reconciliation ministered by these "elders." Why wasn't the other sister scolded for making false accusations, "bearing false witness" against Nell? Why weren't the other housemates called in?

For all their vast knowledge of endless doctrines, LC elders have not a clue how to provide wise counsel. There are frankly no counselors among them. They have armies of legal warriors but not a single mediator for personal conflicts. They candidly have no clue that such a skill is even needed in the church.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The church definitely has to have boundary or rules, as a believer we are bound to an authority. But how is the LC different than other groups in terms of abusiveness in practice? What exactly or which doctrine is abusive to you? I guess if you don't have problem with the practices taught by the LC, then it's not abusive to you.

I was branded a serpent and anti-Christ. That was enough abuse for me to see a cult (well there was a little more to it).

The LC didn't have to be a sex cult for me to see it, like the Children of God, or Nxivm. Moreover, Witness Lee wasn't a Jim Jones ... and he wasn't telling us to get ready for the coming of the Comet Hale–Bopp.

Are all cults abusive? What about the LDS, the JW's, Scientology? It's not so clear, is it? Is mind control abuse?

And it depends on each person's experience. The sisters Nee raped would say the LC is abusive ... then their's Philip Lee, and Timothy ... and a host of other sexual abuses, covered up. A Lead Elder telling me I had to "take his personality as my own, and if I wanted to blow my nose I had to ask him which side first," I considered abusive. That was enough for me to walk away from a 'freshly discover' cult-lite.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

But no church or any group of Christian is perfect right? Should we reconcile and just forgive?

Are you serious? “We”? Should “we” reconcile and “just forgive”?

What’s your story of abuse by the “imperfections” of the Local Church leadership? Who did you forgive? Who are you reconciled with after their abuse of you? It’s easy to dismiss and minimize the pain of others by turning it around and play the “just forgive” card. This is just more mockery.

No one expects perfection. I certainly didn’t. Neither did I expect to be ambushed and falsely accused by men I held in the highest esteem and respect. I didn’t expect to be intimidated, and terrorized by supposed “men of God”. Why can’t the abusers “just stop” their abusive behavior? Can’t the abuser “go and sin no more”? Is anyone ASKING for forgiveness?

Is reconciliation possible without repentance? Repentance brings a change in behavior. Is reconciliation possible when the abusive behavior continues? Has the abuse stopped?

The truth is, I did forgive these abusive men and this abusive couple long ago. In fact, a few years after the fact, at my request, I met with these men again (all but 1 of them). I asked them why they treated me the way they did. They didn’t answer my question but confessed that they were wrong to do to me what they did. They admitted that they should have handled the whole matter differently. They admitted that many others asked the same question when given an opportunity to confront them.

What they DIDN’T do is tell me I should be reconciled with them and “just forgive”. Even they knew better than to make such a callous and stupid statement.

Does this mean the abusive behavior stopped? They didn’t ambush me again, and they didn’t treat me like a leper anymore.

Even though I forgave them, will this experience ever “go away”? It hasn’t yet. I still get a sick stomach when I remember that night. Do you think I would ever trust an “elder” again?

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

I was branded a serpent and anti-Christ. That was enough abuse for me to see a cult (well there was a little more to it).

The LC didn't have to be a sex cult for me to see it, like the Children of God, or Nxivm. Moreover, Witness Lee wasn't a Jim Jones ... and he wasn't telling us to get ready for the coming of the Comet Hale–Bopp.

Are all cults abusive? What about the LDS, the JW's, Scientology? It's not so clear, is it? Is mind control abuse?

And it depends on each person's experience. The sisters Nee raped would say the LC is abusive ... then their's Philip Lee, and Timothy ... and a host of other sexual abuses, covered up. A Lead Elder telling me I had to "take his personality as my own, and if I wanted to blow my nose I had to ask him which side first," I considered abusive. That was enough for me to walk away from a 'freshly discover' cult-lite.

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

Unreg, I think my username is a good answer to your question. It's not just that there's flaws, it's that they tell you that they are God's deputy authority. And they, as God's representatives, also tell you that if you leave their abusive group, then God just may hit you with an 18-wheeler, or cause your plane to go down. That you are turning your back on God. That you can never be an overcomer. That you might as well just collapse into a pile of ashes now because you have abandoned all hope for the rest of your life.

For those who can't push through these threats, both veiled and explicit, they are trapped but living a double life. Living a life they don't agree with. Splitting themselves mentally.

Many who leave abandon their faith because of the intense psychological effects of this kind of speaking. Many who leave end up spending thousands of dollars in therapy to get on stable ground again - the stable ground that Jesus died for us to have that the LC took away from us.

NONE of these kinds of effects are the markers of a healthy church. None of them represent God's heart toward us. None of them match how Jesus was towards people.....Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God. All these are spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, and mentally abusive, to say nothing of the reports of physical and sexual abuse that are coming out. Abuse is never, ever to be tolerated. Sin is sin. Abuse, while also sin, is more than that - it is abuse. Unrepentant, continual, damaging, evil, dark, crushing. But the LC has a decades long practice of covering up abuse, and even exalting or promoting those who are perpetrating it.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

Where's the hate? Who hates more?

The LC, especially the leadership attached to LSM, is an abusive sect. If this forum warns others, and gives voice to victims, why do you call it "hate?"

.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

None of the abuse which I have read about on this forum, or experienced myself, can be accurately described as "flaws."

Originally Posted by jesusislord

But no church or any group of Christian is perfect right? Should we reconcile and just forgive?

Yes!! Absolutely!! We are called to peace as much as we are able.....but tell me, how do you make peace with people who will not speak to you, and block all contact with you? And in another instance, a sister who was willing to speak to me, but only on LC terms, which meant she virtually ignored every word I spoke, and talked over and around every issue. The mind games were disturbing and unacceptable. I don't play dishonest games with people. It is not in me, and further, it is repulsive behavior. If you cannot stand in the truth with Christ and His word, how can there be any fellowship? There cannot be. In my experience they made it impossible to go on in truth with them. Or peace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

Let me ask the opening phrase of this question a different way.

When the LC's were new and small in number, why did Witness Lee treat others with more respect and focus more on the Word of God?

And then why, as they grew and became more established, did Witness Lee and other leaders become so abusive to the children of God, and leave the Word of God for his own self-serving doctrines?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

So that’s how you justify sin? The LC is big and humans are sinful. Oh well. Things happen. Just forgive. Let’s pray-read.

How do you know ex members hate the LC at all? Who told you this? Because we tell the truth about our experiences in the LC, you diagnose “hate”? Telling the truth equals hate?

Hate the LC “more than other groups”? Who told you this? How do you know? What groups? What evidence do you have? How do you measure “hate”?

I don’t hate the LC. I hate the abuse; I hate the bad behavior of those who abuse their brothers and sisters and try to spiritualize it or excuse it or cover it up or shoot the messenger. I hate it when people excuse themselves and their behavior as oh well, the LC is big...sin happens. Just be reconciled. Just forgive. I hate it when the abuser blames the victim.

Nell

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Yes!! Absolutely!! We are called to peace as much as we are able.....but tell me, how do you make peace with people who will not speak to you, and block all contact with you? And in another instance, a sister who was willing to speak to me, but only on LC terms, which meant she virtually ignored every word I spoke, and talked over and around every issue. The mind games were disturbing and unacceptable. I don't play dishonest games with people. It is not in me, and further, it is repulsive behavior. If you cannot stand in the truth with Christ and His word, how can there be any fellowship? There cannot be. In my experience they made it impossible to go on in truth with them. Or peace.

This one was me.
byHismercy

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When a group becomes big sure there's flaws because humans are sinful, what makes ex members hate the LC more than other groups?

I hate all religious institutions, going back to Constantine in the 4th c. And yes, humans aren't all that great either.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

But no church or any group of Christian is perfect right? Should we reconcile and just forgive?

So by this logic it's the victims job to make things right? Are there not consequences for actions? Admitting any wrong doing? Does the LC leadership have a history of admitting when they did something wrong? There cannot be reconciliation without repentance or acknowledging the truth.

This line of thinking is toxic and abusive

[Hannah]

The title of this discussion thread is disingenuous. Does the author care to hear and understand how the LC may have been abusive? Do the author care to make things right? I don't believe the author cares about any of this. What a horrible thing to do, to come here and call into question the lived experiences of people who have left the LC.

For the record, I left the LC more then a decade before I realized it was abusive. Newsflash abuse isnt the only reason people leave. Newsflash God wanted me out of that narrow minded, judgemental, and disingenuous faith community.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Hannah

Newsflash God wanted me out of that narrow minded, judgemental, and disingenuous faith community.

Me too Hannah, me too.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Hannah

So by this logic it's the victims job to make things right? Are there not consequences for actions? Admitting any wrong doing? Does the LC leadership have a history of admitting when they did something wrong? There cannot be reconciliation without repentance or acknowledging the truth.

This line of thinking is toxic and abusive

It is not always easy to forget (if at all) when someone or a church has wronged you, has abused you, manipulated you and or controlled you. When set free from the malevalont grip I have been able to forgive. But that does not mean I want that person or that 'church' near me. I definitely do not!!! And God is ok with that.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Hannah

For the record, I left the LC more then a decade before I realized it was abusive. Newsflash abuse isn't the only reason people leave. Newsflash God wanted me out of that narrow minded, judgmental, and disingenuous faith community.

I have about the same testimony - right about 10 years. He brought us out of the LCs with various circumstances, plus the level of life was flagging there. Once I hit somewhere, 10 years later, where I really began to see God's prime motive for us was His love, that's when He began showing me how the focus and teaching in the LCs were off. Once I began seeing the real thing, the other was obvious.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I have about the same testimony - right about 10 years. He brought us out of the LCs with various circumstances, plus the level of life was flagging there. Once I hit somewhere, 10 years later, where I really began to see God's prime motive for us was His love, that's when He began showing me how the focus and teaching in the LCs were off. Once I began seeing the real thing, the other was obvious.

It is all about love. We weren't allowed to love each other in the LC cuz it was soulish.

And I saw their love, or lack of it, when I got the boot. But I found love with those that also got the boot, or walked away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

It is not always easy to forget (if at all) when someone or a church has wronged you, has abused you, manipulated you and or controlled you. When set free from the malevolent grip I have been able to forgive. But that does not mean I want that person or that 'church' near me. I definitely do not!!! And God is ok with that.

Yes, we Christians have an obligation to forgive others as God has forgiven us. It's there in the Lord's prayer (Luke 11.4) and clearly in Paul's teaching. (Col 3.13) We Christians must learn to practice this because it is the Lord's command, and His teaching here is so beneficial to our own faith and psychological well-being.

Forgiveness is a decision we make. Forgiveness releases the offender of the debt owed to us. We would only do such a thing because of God's promise to forgive all of our debts. If the forgiveness of my own sins hinges on whether I forgive another's sins, then I must choose the former because it is so beneficial for me.

That does not mean it is easy. In one situation, I have been forced to repeat that forgiveness in my heart for more than a quarter century. It is WL who added the demand that we must also "forget" when we forgive. Then he added the second demand that we must never speak about what happened. These are not the requirements of scripture. The ability to forget is not a possibility, nor is it demanded by God. The demand to be silent, when watching others hurt likewise, is also not of God. On the contrary, God allowed many of us to be hurt, so we could warn, comfort, and encourage others. (II Cor 1.6)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, we Christians have an obligation to forgive others as God has forgiven us. It's there in the Lord's prayer (Luke 11.4) and clearly in Paul's teaching. (Col 3.13) We Christians must learn to practice this because it is the Lord's command, and His teaching here is so beneficial to our own faith and psychological well-being.

When I am haunted by a memory of someone who has wronged me, a prayer I send up is "Forgive them LORD as You have forgiven me. Have Mercy on them as You have had mercy on me."

This prayer has comforted me and released me of being bitter and angry. It still does not mean I want that person or 'church' back in my life. If there is no change of attitude on their part, no repentance on their part, why do I want them back in my life? They are only going to torment me again!

Forgiveness is a decision we make. That does not mean it is easy.

It is WL who added the demand that we must also "forget" when we forgive. Then he added the second demand that we must never speak about what happened.

So if someone you know and even loved murders your spouse or child, and we by the GRACE of God forgive them, we must forget?? and never speak about happened??? What a dumb idiot he was!!!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When I am haunted by a memory of someone who has wronged me, a prayer I send up is "Forgive them LORD as You have forgiven me. Have Mercy on them as You have had mercy on me."

This prayer has comforted me and released me of being bitter and angry. It still does not mean I want that person or 'church' back in my life. If there is no change of attitude on their part, no repentance on their part, why do I want them back in my life? They are only going to torment me again!

So if someone you know and even loved murders your spouse or child, and we by the GRACE of God forgive them, we must forget?? and never speak about happened??? What a dumb idiot he was!!!!

Not a dumb idiot. Rather an abusive master manipulator.

Thanks for your prayer of forgiveness.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is WL who added the demand that we must also "forget" when we forgive. Then he added the second demand that we must never speak about what happened. These are not the requirements of scripture. The ability to forget is not a possibility, nor is it demanded by God. The demand to be silent, when watching others hurt likewise, is also not of God. On the contrary, God allowed many of us to be hurt, so we could warn, comfort, and encourage others. (II Cor 1.6)

I think I have to agree. I don't know anywhere we are exhorted to also forget. This is an attribute of God and is truly remarkable. That is, He says He will remember our sins no more! If we ever get to that point, it will only be because He was able to do it in us. Not something we could ever, ever do.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

It is all about love. We weren't allowed to love each other in the LC cuz it was soulish.

And I saw their love, or lack of it, when I got the boot. But I found love with those that also got the boot, or walked away.

...and then there's righteousness...

Proverbs 21:21
21 Whoever pursues righteousness AND love finds life, prosperity[a] and honor.

Psalm 33.5 The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

These verses are the perfect rebuttal to the "just move on" fallacy. Things have to be made right in the eyes of God. Love and righteousness go together.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

...and then there's righteousness...

Proverbs 21:21
21 Whoever pursues righteousness AND love finds life, prosperity[a] and honor.

Psalm 33.5 The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

These verses are the perfect rebuttal to the "just move on" fallacy. Things have to be made right in the eyes of God. Love and righteousness go together.

Nell

Yes, and both are satisfied in Christ! On account of The Lamb's perfect sacrifice in love that God can move past any unrighteousness on our part. We just accept His gift and become the righteousness of God in Christ. It's so perfect and complete that God can then totally forget. We don't understand how an all-knowing God could do this and forget, but He says it's so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

These verses are the perfect rebuttal to the "just move on" fallacy. Things have to be made right in the eyes of God. Love and righteousness go together. -- Nell

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, and both are satisfied in Christ! On account of The Lamb's perfect sacrifice in love that God can move past any unrighteousness on our part.

For me, this is what makes aron's recent posts about obedience being our spiritual food (as Jesus Himself said, "My food is to do His will") so enlightening. And on the flip-side, how very deceitful for Lee and LSM to instruct us to coverup unrighteousness and "eat Jesus" by pray-reading some training outline.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And on the flip-side, how very deceitful for Lee and LSM to instruct us to coverup unrighteousness and "eat Jesus" by pray-reading some training outline.

I remember pray-reading things like outlines and footnotes. It was like they were being elevated to the same stature as the Word. I have no issue with praying over an outline to seek the Lord and His will - that's one thing, but praying it like it was anything more than mans' writing is a bridge too far . . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I remember pray-reading things like outlines and footnotes. It was like they were being elevated to the same stature as the Word. I have no issue with praying over an outline to seek the Lord and His will - that's one thing, but praying it like it was anything more than mans' writing is a bridge too far . . . .

What's even worse is praying over Lee's outlines so that Lee's unrighteousness is covered up.

Listen, none of us here are discussing all the "warts" and "mistakes" of men at LSM. We all have them, and more, and we should provide as much mercy to them as we ourselves wish to have.

But LSM's history is that of political hits. They attack as leprous rebels and conspirators those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience on behalf of wounded saints.

Shame on us if we don't speak up. Didn't Jesus instruct us to "go and do likewise" concerning the story of the Good Samaritan? (Luke 10.37)

[OBW]

I couldn't find my copy of the RecV, but I was suddenly thinking that maybe their version of Matthes 18:15-71 read something like the following:

If your brother or sister sins, tell it to the elders so they can call them into a private meeting and verbally assault them. There should never be any attempt to verify any claim and attempts to counter should be ignored.

And there was probably a footnote pointing out that no charge could ever be made in the church against a leading one because they had deputy authority.

It is the constant onslaught of unrighteousness by Nee, Lee, and the LC leadership over decades that makes any attempt at rehabilitation of the LC as an entity almost pointless. It was started and has been maintained by people who never had the qualifications to lead or teach in a "proper" church. I regret that there are probably many good local elders who, on their own, would not be in this category, but who have aligned themselves with it by supporting it — even unwittingly and "innocently."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I couldn't find my copy of the RecV, but I was suddenly thinking that maybe their version of Matthes 18:15-71 read something like the following:

If your brother or sister sins, tell it to the elders so they can call them into a private meeting and verbally assault them. There should never be any attempt to verify any claim and attempts to counter should be ignored.

And there was probably a footnote pointing out that no charge could ever be made in the church against a leading one because they had deputy authority

Perhaps these should be pray-read! (yes, I am am just too funny)

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Listen, none of us here are discussing all the "warts" and "mistakes" of men at LSM. We all have them, and more, and we should provide as much mercy to them as we ourselves wish to have.

But LSM's history is that of political hits. They attack as leprous rebels and conspirators those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience on behalf of wounded saints.

The people at LSM would like to have everyone think that we all are just nitpicking about people's failures or mistakes. They even state that on their new website. It's a classic straw man.

It is a given that any group is going to have mistakes, failures, etc. I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that those things invalidate anything that the LC stands for. But what does cast a shadow on the LC is that these mistakes and failures are symptomatic of a much larger problem.

The situation that led to me leaving the LC was multiple attempts by people in positions of power in the LC trying to tell me what to do. After I left, someone acknowledged that there were certain people in the LC that were out of line, but then tried making the argument that such a fact shouldn't be used to characterize the LC negatively as a whole. I disagreed and contended that these weren't isolated incidents. It was an ongoing problem and many others had been affected by similar abuses of power.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The people at LSM would like to have everyone think that we all are just nitpicking about people's failures or mistakes. They even state that on their new website. It's a classic straw man.

It is a given that any group is going to have mistakes, failures, etc. I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that those things invalidate anything that the LC stands for. But what does cast a shadow on the LC is that these mistakes and failures are symptomatic of a much larger problem.

The situation that led to me leaving the LC was multiple attempts by people in positions of power in the LC trying to tell me what to do. After I left, someone acknowledged that there were certain people in the LC that were out of line, but then tried making the argument that such a fact shouldn't be used to characterize the LC negatively as a whole. I disagreed and contended that these weren't isolated incidents. It was an ongoing problem and many others had been affected by similar abuses of power.

It is systemic within the LC organization. This is propagated by there being such a strong centralized command and control over localities.

[OBW]

How is the LC abusive to me? Only indirectly at this time. It is through the continued participation of my brother and sister and their families. It makes for stunted conversation since they (esp my brother) are not so much to talk about other things and they know it is a trap waiting to happen if they want to talk about the LC. So talk about the families and work is about it. I wish I could talk to them about anything. Anytime.

[Sons to Glory!]

To me, the three main things that makes the LC abusive are:

1. Thinking they have the "One Ministry" and higher teaching, and are therefore rich
2. Strong command and control of localities by a central authority
3. Exclusivity - purposely separating from other believers

All kinds of related things can be brought up, but I think it is these three that are the foundation, or the root, of the rest of them.